No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1103: The World of Simulator Golf with Carl Markestad

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

Carl Markestad - owner of Carl's Place in Milton, Wisconsin - has turned what started out as a business focused on outdoor projector screen setups into one of the largest indoor golf simulator companies in the country. As winter sets in across the country, DJ and Carl discuss the evolution of the indoor golf simulator, technological updates that have drastically lowered the price point of a home setup, common misconceptions around simulator installs, and a ton more. Join us in our support of the Evans Scholars Foundation: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nolayingup.com/esf⁠ Support our Sponsors: East Sands Golf Co If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club today. Yeah, that's better than most. How about him? It is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Langa podcast. My name is DJ. Got an interview for you today, kind of a bonus episode for you today. I got an interview with a guy named Carl Markstad, who is the founder of a company called Carl's Place, which is a company I had not heard of before, but they are a major player in the golf simulator game. I got golf simulators on the mind, I would say, as of as of late, because A, it's very, very cold. At my house, where I live here in Wisconsin and you know the idea of me playing golf out on green grass in the real world is still quite far off and so I've been thinking about simulator golf which clearly I'm not going to be breaking any news here is very much on the rise and that kind of brings me to the second thing which is that I think for the last I don't know 20 years I feel like I've had this like conception preconceived notion of what golf simulators are I mean I remember in high school I would walk into

Dick's sporting goods, PJ Tour Superstore, Golf Galaxy, whatever, and you know, you see a whole wing of the building that's been fitted out as, you know, this golf simulator and it probably costs $200,000 and they use it for club fittings and this, that, and the other thing. And, you know, I think I just walked around

for a very long time with that in my head. Like, that's what a golf simulator is. And obviously things have changed immensely over the last 20 years as technology has changed. Launch monitors have changed. The space it takes to pull. one of these in has gotten a lot smaller golf shops have started to put them in a lot more people have started putting them in their basements or their attics or their extra room or building a shed

or whatever and i just had like a bunch of questions kind of you know rattling around the brain about uh golf simulators and how they've changed uh how they've stayed the same uh how one even wraps their head around the idea of uh maybe starting to possibly maybe possibly think about putting one in and so i figured you know i i got uh aligned to these folks that carl place, which just happened to be right down the road here in Wisconsin. They said, do you want to come by and have a chat? And I said, sure, that sounds lovely. I'm not playing golf. It's, it's 11 degrees outside. Yeah, I would love to come have a chat. And so that's what I did. So I buzzed down to Carl's Place HQ, and had a chat with Carl himself. And before we get there, I want to give a shout out to our sponsor today. That is our friends at East Sands Golf Company. We mentioned these guys on our year in review episode, the kind of gin. rewind that we did they are a golf travel company a husband and wife team out of vancouver canada that builds custom golf trips and like truly custom golf trips is the part i would probably stress uh they work with customers a variety of different price points i think honestly that's

kind of their their specialty if you want to do the big big swing bag tag berry i want to play them all they can work with you on that absolutely but if you're like hey i've never been to Scotland. I'd love to check out, you know, some of these lesser-known places. That's kind of their bag. That's what they, that's what gets them out of bed in the morning is really showing off some of these places that we love to go, that a lot of other people have loved in the past, that you're not going to run into a bunch of tour buses. They're really great at putting together those types of trips and making you very comfortable along the way. So if you're thinking about taking a trip to Scotland, Ireland, Northern Ireland, England,

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here's my conversation with the Carl, Carl, Carl, of Carl's place. Carl, I'm starting kind of full internet parlance here. I was not familiar with your game, I think. Coming around the, coming around the corner here, I was like, oh, I was like, Carl's place. What is this guy like, it's just a shed behind this guy's house? I'm like, no, this is a big operation here in Milton, Wisconsin it's gotten it's gotten to be pretty big for sure it started the way you thought you know that's for sure um but yeah the last few years it's really taken off and we've uh we've built a lot here so uh why is this building so big what are you guys doing here uh we make a lot of enclosures and and uh stuff for golf sims so it's it started as as just a couple sewing tables and and some work

tables and you know we have more and more to do and and these are big things to make and so they need a lot of space big rolls of fabric and you know big long pipes and yeah just it stacks up real fast well i want to get into a little bit about your background and how you got into doing all this a minute but i want to start let's let's hook some people here first what's the question you get asked the most regarding this this industry your guys's business well besides what's carl's place a bar that's there might be a bar here somewhere i mean i'm sure there has to be besides that um it's It's the, yeah, how did you get into this is definitely the next question. It's, you know, it's a little different.

It's a little specific, but, you know, people see the size of the place and they go, what? Like, that's what you do there? And yeah, so that's where the conversation usually goes. All right. Well, let's get to that story then. How did you get into this? What's the kind of abbreviated backstory of your involvement? Well, almost by accident, I guess I would say.

we you know we this company started doing uh backyard theater screens uh and i got into that just you know because it was something fun i wanted to do and um you know we made we made backyard screens for a long time and then uh around 2014 15 a lot of people started asking us about hitting golf balls into our backyard theater screens which was sounded absolutely ridiculous to me but after enough people asked us about that i was able to find some that we could say, yeah, sure, this works for screens and you can hit into it. And from there, you know, our backyard theater business just kind of slowly got outpaced by the golf interest.

And at this point, it's all golf. So it was, you know, it was being in the right place at the right time and just trying to solve problems, I guess. Well, I think a lot of our audience is going to be very familiar with the golf simulator. I do want to talk about a lot of different levels because I think there's some interesting things about how you guys do it at least as far as I understand it

so please correct me if I'm wrong but you know I think where my I'll start with some of my insecurities or my like questions where I started you know poking around and you know I'm like I moved to Wisconsin a couple years ago like the weather sucks you see it out there today it's 38 degrees

and yeah I wasn't dying to go play today and so I was starting to poke around I'm like all right well I just need I need a place to hit balls what does that look like and okay if i want to see where the ball's going what does that look like and so i know there's all kinds of different levels to this thing but i think in my head it's funny like you get older uh and i realize i'm doing this a lot more and more but like you have this preconceived notion of what something was 10 years ago when you first formed your opinion on it you know and so 10 years ago i'm like a golf simulator that's you know you go to dick sporting goods

and they got a big giant thing and there's no way that can cost less than 50 000 to put into your house like people are putting these in their houses and then you start looking into how things have changed and so all of this is a big setup to say talk to me about that a little bit how has this changed over the last 10 years yeah and and kind of what what sort of levels are there to this thing sure yeah uh i mean i was i was in a very similar spot as you uh you know years ago when we were getting into this thinking uh that's that's not you know our our core customers were do it yourselfers you know they were spending a few hundred bucks to to put up a screen in their backyard and and you know the idea of of making a golf sims seemed you know unreachable you know

just kind of silly but as the years have gone on um the launch monitors have gotten very good and very much better price you know you where you used to need a whole room of equipment to to measure the the shot you can now get it in a little box that you know either sits on the ceiling or the floor or next you or behind you or whatever and it does a pretty good job And then the software has gotten very good also to where it's a pretty enjoyable experience. You know, it's not so hokey as it was at one point. There's anywhere from you can get a device that you take to the range with you to just get data, and that's really all you're doing, to putting that in front of a screen,

whether that's a full-on projector screen, you know, in a big immersive display, or it could just be a TV screen or it could just be your phone, you know, any of the above. And then, like I said, from the data collection standpoint, you can, you can use cameras or radar and, you know, kind of collect whatever you really need to collect to have fun. How did you, were you a big golfer getting into this? No, no. So how do you like keep up with all of the different moving parts of this thing? Because it seems like there's a lot that you'd have to keep up on, especially with how fast it's started to move. Well, you know, coming from the home theater, you know, industry.

There was always plenty of tech with that. I mean, projectors, back when we first started, it was all projectors, you know. It was going from really basic, very expensive projectors to much, much better. So it's been kind of similar following that with the sort of revolution in launch monitors. So that's a comfort level for me personally and for a lot of people on the team is just keeping up with the tech changes and all the stuff that's constantly happening. It seems like every six months or so someone's got a new little twists on it that you just got to kind of file in and go,

oh yeah, that's a cool feature we can talk about. Well, I guess then getting into people actually building these things for their basements or their garage or their shed or their upstairs room or whatever, I think another, you know, going back to some of misconception or preconceived notion or whatever, I think I always kind of assumed like either A, this is a big one size fits all,

thing that comes in a box and it gets dropped off in your driveway and then a bunch of contractors have to come in and install this whole thing and hang all these things like poking around on the website that doesn't seem like what you guys do so so two questions one explain kind of what you guys do what the model is and two like is that unique in this space is there a lot of companies that do this are you guys pretty pretty unique in that regard yeah i mean your description of the of the big you know a team comes in and turns your room into a them is kind of what a lot of people, I think, think of this. But then on the flip side, there are cheaper options that, you know, you can go buy off

some shelves and, and kind of put all together. But we try to kind of get all that merged into a high-end solution that costs more like the off-the-shelf thing. And yeah, that's where I think we're pretty unique, where, you know, all of our, all of the enclosures and screens and stuff that we make to fill out your space is configurable kind of down to the inch. So whatever space you have available, we can make you a setup that, you know, you assemble in your house and it's kind of ready to go.

And you don't need real high-end, you know, contractors or anything to get it done. If you have a space that remotely works, we can usually make it work. And then what happens? So then it shows up your house and are you, it's a lot of DIY stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, we are, the company started in that backyard theater. thing, but it was always a do-it-yourself product.

It was always designed where, you know, I need a piece of fabric that I want to hang up on the side of my house, so we sold them a piece of fabric. And then it was, I'd like a way to hang it a little easier. So we sold some fittings to make a pipe frame. And, you know, it's always been along that line of really, really our primary focuses on helping people, you know, be able to do it on their own without, without it being a whole ordeal. and so that's like I said the products are designed from the bottom up that way so you know you get you know nowadays you get a big enclosure it's a lot of boxes it's a it's a big delivery but it's all you know

it's all done you know we make a lot of great videos and and content to show you it's really you know if you can if you can run a screwdriver you can put the thing together and and have a place to swing your club so I was kind of shocked too I was listening to other interviews and kind of doing some reading and stuff and it seems like it goes together pretty quick yeah too you know again it's like you have this idea of like, I'm transforming an entire room. This is going to take a summer to put this thing up. You're like, no, it's a couple hours. Yeah, I mean, you can do that if you want.

If you want to remodel your room and have a very integrated thing, we'll help you with that. But you don't have to, you know, if you have a spare room or a garage or, you know, a spot in your basement or whatever and you just want to pop this thing up and start using it, that's where we really want to be able to help you out. So that's where a lot of the products live. Well, I have a bunch of questions that I'm going to ask on, like, specifics here and like let's build a sim you know let's go through it kind of step by step

but i think what is interesting to me and i think interesting to a lot of people is almost like setting up the three different levels right because i think we're going to say this a million times i'm sure is there's a a lower level cost wise to do it there's a medium level and there's a blow it out money's no object you know that type of level and so i think keeping that in mind uh kind of as we go through all of these different steps i mean what is i i don't know the right way to ask it. Like, what is the minimum spend or what is the kind of like, what's like the lowest level investment you see someone come through the door that you're like, oh, we can help with what you're trying to do? Well, I mean, our, you know, we're, we make enclosures and

screen. So usually that's the minimum of what someone's starting at, but you don't have to start there. You can, you can use like a phone launch monitor, like a like a Garmin unit that, you know, cost you a couple hundred bucks. And, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're simulating your, you're shot right there um you know for us usually people are doing it on a projector in a screen and an enclosure and so for that you know you're starting in the depending on how much you want to do it yourself you know you can get by with uh in the range of a thousand dollars for a screen and enclosure then a launch monitor again anywhere from a couple hundred bucks to you know uh 10 20 000 um but yeah that minimum is is you know we we typically say like if you if you want to get everything

three to five thousand dollars is really the bare minimum to get you know the computer the projector the screen hitting that launch monitor um and then really as far up as you want to go from there you can you know what i mean um uh as far as like putting packages together on our website you know it's something like a like a unicor uh or even a track man you know you can get into the 2030 even above 30 ranges just for a kit really um but that's some pretty high end technology there too so what maybe a stupid question might be a lot of stupid questions we'll see but as you're going from like you said three thousand dollars to 30 thousand dollars what what are you getting for that 27 thousand dollars you know what the the items that rise the fastest are probably

the launch monitors you know you you get you get launch monitors that use high speed cameras instead of radar or both um and you get really nice software that that uh simulates the the course that much better um and then you also probably get nicer projectors uh and of course you get uh bigger or nicer uh screens and enclosures you know what i mean um so everything you know you can pick and choose what matters to you and you know what what the the best spend is for you and kind of decide hey i want to spend my money here or there or both or whatever i'm sure this is the the million dollar question the the three thousand dollar five thousand dollar question maybe what minimum let's talk like minimums because i know it's it's kind of oh we can make anything work we can

fit there has to be some minimums of what we'll work here yeah yeah i mean usually people find that the height is the hardest thing to have um you know depending on how tall you are how you swing your clubs all that we usually say uh nine feet is kind of the minimum for what you want for a ceiling height some people do it with less you know they'll like only use a pitching wedge and you know they're they're five four or whatever so they can manage that uh but really if you if you want to have over you know swing swing a driver nine feet is kind of the minimum nine and a half 10 and a half is best um so how often you guys get phone calls from people that are like i i measured wrong and i just put my driver through my drywall uh you know i we do a pretty good job of making sure people

understand what they're what they're getting into so so that doesn't happen a lot the far more often question is hey i got an eight foot bedroom i'm putting a sim in here so just help me out and we're like well all right if you insist we'll you know keep keep that pitching wedge handy and just practice your chipping or whatever and people do that you know that's that's what they've got so that's what they're going to do what's uh what's the most creative or a imaginative place you've you've heard of one of these things going in oh man i i mean i've i remember people like adding floors to the top of their house to to to do it uh i mean you name it lots lots of interesting like like standalone sheds in the backyard or or or digging a hole to expand their basement or whatever like what does that mean just like breaking up

the foundation yeah i mean it can mean that you like bust the concrete out and dig down so you get more height uh or just plain adding on to your foundation and just having a an extra room in your basement that's underground essentially like uh yeah there's there's no limit to what a lot of people will do to get their golf sims which you know hey i love it that's interesting yeah i've thought about building up i've never thought about building down before that might be the play for me my personal favorite is the shed idea you know if you've got you got room for a large garden shed like you could you could put a sim in there um well as far as like soundproofing and stuff is that

i'm sure that's kind of like another thing you guys sell but what like yeah what has to be done residentially i guess to in order to to make sure that you're not waking up the whole house because a lot of this is i think i mean a lot of this stuff makes sense for man i really can only play golf i have kids or yeah whatever like i can only hit balls at nine o'clock at night yeah you know the sound is certainly something to think about but it's it's really not something we we hear like people having that many issues with it's like usually it's in a it's in a room off by itself and yeah it's audible but it's not it's not like gonna keep you awake for the most part you know you think about your ball hitting the club that that makes a pretty decent sound and then the ball hitting the screen usually makes another sound but you know we try to design everything to to be pretty reasonable and we don't we know typically we do have some like acoustic tiles you can hang on the wall that helps with that um but but it's not usually like a required thing unless you have a particular sensitivity to the sound uh it's usually it's usually all right well i want to go through kind of like each each part of the build like i said but uh before we do that save some

people from themselves here maybe what's the what's the biggest mistakes you see uh kind of over and over whether it's you i guess what what are they yeah um i don't know you know we don't i don't i don't wouldn't say it's a lot of mistakes usually the the trickiest part to this is making sure you have a your just everything configured well together. So getting a projector that fits in your space is one of the tougher parts. You know, understanding how to measure for the for the throw and like not have it not cast a shadow on you as you're as you're swinging. That's probably the toughest thing to get just right.

We help a lot with that. You know, that's one of the most common questions we get asked. You know, making sure you understand all the features of your launch monitor, what it can and can't do the software it works with all of that that's relatively straightforward usually people can you know get what's going on with that pretty easy and then just like you know how much space do you know are you really going to be able to swing a club there once you add all

your stuff like do you want to put a chair in that room too because that that needs a little extra couple extra feet if you want to be able to have anyone else in there with you there's one thing to have the minimum but another thing to have anyone hanging out while you have that minimum True. Well, going through the website and you guys have this kind of build your own simulator tool, which I was messing around with quite a bit thinking about my own space and what would work and what wouldn't work. You said the word enclosure a couple times. And I think everybody, you know, who's ever been to a golf galaxy or whatever knows what I'm talking about. You got the big black panels around you. Is that something you guys, is that necessary?

I know you have kind of the almost like convert a room sort of option. What's the difference between? Yeah. We have a lot of people that are going to dedicate a room to this, you know, and for them, you don't need an enclosure. You need to turn your room into a, into a sim. And so there's kind of two major options there where if you're in a garage or a basement or a larger space and you need a way to collect your balls and make sure you're, you know, you're dividing the space, an enclosure is perfect for that. if you're taking a room that's going to be kind of semi permanently made into a sim, you know, we have our convert your room kits that that fill the entire space of the room, you know,

provided, of course, your room is generally the shape that will work for this. You just kind of fill a screen across the whole wall, put some, you know, line something on your walls to make sure you're not bouncing balls around and that's your enclosure is the whole room. So, yeah, that's a real popular, you know, like I said, for, If you're not ready to quite dive in, the enclosure, you know, you can get a lower price enclosure and just pop it in the room and start there. But if you're ready to, you know, kind of really get into it, then, hey, turn your whole room into it and, you know, maximize that space. I feel like are there also a bunch of, I don't know there I always say. Are there different, like, levers that affect different things because I'm almost thinking like with an enclosure is obviously going to help the projector as well, right, to provide like some kind of shielding from the light.

And so if you don't have that, then you then have to, like, spend more on the projector. Do you get what I'm saying? Is there any kind of like this affects this sort of things? The projector is definitely one where if you're not going to have great control over your ambient light, maybe, you know, maybe you're in a garage where there's a bunch of windows everywhere or something like that, then, yeah, brighter projector is a good investment there to offset that, you know, maybe a deeper enclosure. So rather than, you know, hitting into the enclosure, you're actually in it.

and then you can kind of block all the light out from around. Yeah, there's a lot of features like that. Where your launch monitor is mounted, is it on the ceiling or is it behind you or next to you or whatever? So, yeah, I mean, there's tons of environmental variables to consider that that's exactly the type of stuff we help people with all the time. Well, on the projector front, again, kind of thinking like low, medium high, what are the options we're looking at what is like to get in the door? it's going to cost you at least this for one of these types of things all the way up to you know whatever and then also like how that seems like the thing that must have along with launch monitors like those must have changed so much over

the last couple years because I just remember them being gigantic and noisy and not very bright and all you know you know we've we've I've been doing projectors for a long time so I've kind of seen the whole cycle where when they first got to be into an attainable price for for home consumers you know was getting into the $1,000, $1,000 range. And there's still a number of options down there, you know, for under $1,000, you can get a 1080P projector that will do a fine job, you know, in a lot of locations. You start upgrading your projector to get higher resolution.

You got 4K resolution. That's usually the first step to take. I would say most new projectors, I think almost all new projectors are going to be laser light engines or some type of solid state light engine. And that makes for a more uniform brightness as they age. And, you know, there's a bunch, you know, instant on, things like that. That's great. And then just overall brightness is the kind of the last thing that most people are trying to judge.

You know, like said, more ambient light in your room, brighter projector generally helps. There's some other tricks you can do. But yeah, that's resolution, light engine brightness are the three kind of main things to pick the projector. What is the lifespan on one of those usually? Oh, the newer ones, I think most are rated in the 20, 25,000 hours range.

That's one of the kind of downsides to the newer projectors with the solid state light engines is when they're out, they're out. You used to be able to replace the bulbs, but then you had bulbs failing all the time. And the solid state light engines are really good. And when you do the math on that number of hours, that's a really long time.

So I have never I've never used a projector to the point where it needed replacing until it needed replacing because there's much better options out there. You know what I mean? I've never just been like, oh, I want another one of these.

No, I want something better by then. I don't know if there's a thing or not, but I'm just thinking about it, as you're mentioning, you know, these were outdoor projection screens and conceivably like watching movies. And how does aspect ratio fit into all of this? Because some of this must be, I have this much space and I hit it pretty straight

and I don't need that much room. But, like, you've also need your projector to fit into that aspect ratio, I would assume, right? You know, aspect ratio is another one that's been fun because back in the early days of the home theater business, everyone had four to three stuff. And we were like working to convince people, you really want 16 to 9. That's, that's all the HD format, you know, all that good stuff. And now it's like not many people have room for a 16 to 9 golf simulator. And so the 4 to 3 is actually quite popular or custom. I mean, tons of these aren't quite any aspect ratio.

But luckily, usually there's a pretty easy way to adjust the resolution to something custom and make it fit your whole screen. When we were into this earlier on, that was always the biggest struggle is like make sure you're getting an enclosure or a screen that is an aspect ratio that you can fill it or will get calls, you know, because I bought a big screen and I'm only filling half of it or whatever. so yeah these days it's a lot easier to fill the screen fully whatever aspect ratio you got 16 to 9 is or 16 to 10 in a lot of cases is ideal if you have that kind of width for your space what kind of width are we talking about for that you know i know i know you guys probably have like again like some minimums for yeah depth and width and all that stuff yeah if you're only one-handed you can which is a whole other thing i didn't even think about if you have lefties coming over yeah lefties are real pain if you've got those well i mean you you usually want to to be golfing from the center of the screen anyway. So, but you can cheat, you know, if you have a really narrow space and you want to offset your T to the side a little bit, you can, you can do it in a 12 or 13 foot wide room, one handed. If you're putting the T in the center and you have people on both sides, that's pretty tight, uh, doing that.

And so, you know, if you have two handed, uh, or, or, you know, righties on lefties, like 1415 is where I really like to see the space and, you know, wider is really nice because you don't, you don't want to think about the. behind you at all even when you're clear you want to have you know a fair bit of extra so the minimum and width we talked about the minimum height minimum with i like to say usually about 14 15 is a lot better you know anything above that is great uh and then as far as the actual screen you know like you said that's kind of how you guys got started i got imagine there's different levels to the screen what are you getting as you're moving up between yeah between different screen levels yeah different screen levels are you know

they change price because there's more material in them or they're slower to knit because they're tighter. So high level screens are going to have a really smooth finish. You're not going to be able to see the knitting in them as easily, especially from a T position. And they'll be thicker and heavier duty for wearing purposes. So lower end screens are going to be a rougher texture. you know maybe maybe not as good for higher definition stuff but you know cheap so there's there's that option and we kind of we kind of generally have three different we have a standard preferred and premium where standard is the the cheapest you know kind of utility like hey it's a big white surface you could use it premium or excuse me preferred is like standard but it's just a little tighter weave

so you just a little bit of an upgrade there and then premium is is a really much thicker material that has kind of a padding in the center of it that that really has a really nice tight surface to it so it looks really nice i feel like that i keep having randomly more movie questions that pop into my head than golf questions at some point but do you have people that use it for both i would have yeah i mean that's something a lot of people don't really think about is the the golf sim can be really multi-purpose um you can get you know multi-sport attachments uh that really make it that way for it's you know if you've got kids that you're that want to like play dodgeball arcade games or or shooting games or you know you name it there's all

kinds of other sports you can do uh on on the golf sim uh but you know also you know put up any you know put your nintendo switch on there or throw up a movie or whatever and it's a great spot you know if you got kids you know wanting to sit down for a movie like giving them that kind of space where they can roll around and you know get out of your hair is excellent i can tell you from experience, so I feel like that's, yeah, it was going to be one of my last questions, but I feel like there's all these, like, uh, for those trying to convince, you know, a significant other partner or whatever, like, uh, you know, there's got to be like a, a break glass in case of emergency list of like, well, no, but the kids are going to use it.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't know if you get, what's on your, your Mount Rushmore of those best, like, convincing things. Uh, show the multi-sport, like, it's, uh, it's, there's some great benefits besides just you golf and I, I, we definitely can help you with that. that pitch. All right. Moving to the big,

the big hairy one, which I think is launch monitors. Yeah. So I think, again, people who are listening to this podcast kind of know the basics. Like,

they certainly know the high end and the track man and the G.C. Quad and all of all of those things. But if you could give just kind of a basic rundown of what are the different types of launch monitors as it pertains to this? And then I have to tell me if this is stupid or not, but there's got to be a cutoff at some point

between like this data can be projected onto a screen and this cannot, right? So almost like kind of as you're going through it, maybe show where that that cutoff is. Yeah, well, you know, you have launch monitors that are really meant to be dedicated in a sim. You know, and that's like the trackman I.O mounts overhead, the Unicor IXO and IXO and XR. They're meant to just mount on the ceiling and stay there. You know, they're purpose made for this. So they have, they have their own built-in software. Like Trackman has excellent core software,

upfitting software and all that. Unicor also has that, but also can connect to third-party games. You know, that's, that's kind of the upper tier that I would point to if you want to be pretty serious about it. And those are going to be like 10, 12, 15 grand probably? The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, 21 range. Unicorn is available 10, you know, in that like 6 to 10 range, depending on the model. The Pro TVX is on the lower

side of that. So that's a really popular kind of mid-level I wouldn't say entry because it's on the higher end, but you know, entry into the high end I guess I would say. You know, below that, not necessarily below that but different is the the more portable models that are you know dual purpose take them to the range for data bring them inside and plug them in and a lot of them do the exact

same thing just they sit on the floor next to you or behind you and so for that you know you you get the benefit of being able to do your data collection and analysis at the range in real life but then also you have that that you know data at home and and some of those that would be like the GC3 and that such things. Yeah, the GC3 and GC quad, the flight scope models, you know, there's a number of those. The Unicor I-Mini is really good for that. They make the I-Mini light, which is the same thing, but it's not portable, so it's the same technology, but you just don't pay for the battery and all the other stuff.

But those have an advantage because they have cameras that are right next to the ball, so they can give you really, really good data. They're just kind of in the way if you have very, righties and lefties you got to keep moving the thing around um so a lot of it is essentially the same it's not all the same but it's really largely the same technology either packed in a box that sits next to you or sits overhead um and it's like you know what's what fits your your your need the best what uh in your mind what's kind of the benefit to the overheads then right because if you're giving up that ability to like take it to the range is it well they're out of the way you know you you

you don't have to touch anything um you know you can have your righties and lefties there you know there's a space on the floor as long as your ball is in that space it'll work so um you know there's no there's no configuration or anything i mean you calibrate it you know once in a while but between golfers it's just go um so what's uh you know you've rattle off a bunch of different companies and different names and stuff you guys i think that was the other thing that was it was kind of cool just clicking through is you guys are brand agnostic right which is not something you see all the time right right I mean, I feel like that, what kind of flexibility is that give you in order to make something fit?

We partner with a lot of them just because, obviously, making the launch matter decision is a huge part of making your SIM. But our equipment, it works with everything. You know, we have mounts that work with any of the different choices you make. And, you know, really what we make is a big box to swing your club in. The launch matter decision is totally independent of that. so so you know we you know even though we what we spend our most time making uh is on the easier side of the of the decision because it's like hey what's your space okay let's put it let's put a screen and protection in there now let's talk about you know what launch monitor do you want

and software and projector and all that so yeah the the the the decision on the launch monitor and the and sometimes the software uh on top of that is there's there's a lot that goes into that that's just kind of, hey, what do you, what do you want to do? What do you want to get out of this? Because there's different, there's different pros and cons to each. Yeah, which again, feels like, you know, talk about levers, right? Like there's just, what's the budget? What are you trying to, are you trying to use this to play tour courses?

Are you trying to do fitting? Are you trying to get better data? Are you trying to bring it to the range? Are you trying to, you know, all that stuff, which, yeah, would make my head spin, I think. And it can. And that's, we really try to help boil that down for people. And that's, that's why we have that build your own tool on our website to really try to help, you know, filter down.

I mean, because it's a ton out there, but, but in it for a typical person, you can usually narrow it down really fast to, hey, what do you, what do you want to do? Is this for, is this for fun? Is this for you and your buddies play golf? Are you trying to get really good, you know, you're trying to replace a trainer with this or all of the above, you know, and then what's your budget? You know, what do you want to spend on this thing? And when you answer those questions, you can usually get into a pretty,

pretty tight range and say okay here's what you want to consider so i think that probably brings us into the software question because this is where i get uh again i get a little confused people have heard us talk about you know we've done some stuff with foresight in the past and yeah have a gc3 in my garage that i i used to hit balls into a net and in my head i'm like okay well theoretically i should be able to connect this to a computer and like build a sim i'm like how the hell do I do that? Like that, that is so inconceivable to me. Yeah, absolutely. With a GC3, you put an enclosure in your garage and get a projector, and you can do exactly that. But yeah, the software, every launch monitor typically is going

to come with some software. You know, the entry-level launch monitors are often are good for a phone or a tablet, but they can be projected onto a monitor or something. You know, Forsyte, Unicorn, they have some type of like fitting utility to start with, which are really helpful for just, you know, you want to have a driving range session and track all of your shots and like see your grouping and stuff, slow motion shot of your club hitting the ball and all that. That's really useful. And they're all pretty good at that. They typically will also have some type of course software. You want to go play a course. You know, you can you can use the the system that comes with Foresight or that comes with Unicor or that comes with Trackman.

And then some of them also allow you to use third-party games. GS-Pro is probably the most popular right now. And so, like, you'll have a connector where you, you know, click a couple of things in your Unicor software or your Foresight software, and then that launches the third-party software. So that gives you access to usually tons and tons of courses that a lot of them are like community-made. I mean, you could golf, you could golf the rest of your life

and probably never play the same course again, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's, that is another thing I feel like I'd have to wrap my head around is picking a software, but do you have any, you can name names if you want or not name names, or do you have preference? Do you have like, I really like this? Because I feel like that informs kind of the launch monitor decision to you. Well, I mean, yeah, the GS Pro is. That's a fairly universal. It works on a lot of stuff.

Yeah, that's a really popular option. It has really good community support, so you see new courses coming out on it all the time. And are these like, I probably a mix, but is this like I want to play TPC Sawgrass or is this like this guy dreamed up this crazy hole on the moon? That's a little of both, yeah. Okay.

You know, there's a lot of times it's a licensing thing where, you know, you might not be able to play. You're playing the island green, but maybe not TBC Sawgrass. A little bit of a wink on what you're actually playing. Azalea National. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But then, yeah, there's also. some pretty zany, like fantasy courses.

One of my favorites is a honey, like a honey I Shrunk the Kids course where you're playing like in, you know, super tall grass in your miniature. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of really cool stuff out there. Like, and that's what I love about GS-Pro's,

that community content you can access. I mean, because on the other hand, you have software like Trackman, which is really, really good. You know, the simulation experience is excellent.

The courses are beautiful and very detailed. and you know that's that's a great solution for a lot of people but yeah that's proprietary to their launch monitor yeah you're you're not going to be able to use a third party software and you have to use theirs and you know they make it very good so that's a that's a good choice for a lot of people but some of the other platforms you know if you get a unicorn or a pro t you can more easily connect to the gs pros you can also use you know the pro t has the golf club and unicorn has game day those are both solid options but yeah the point is you have options on so and then i think this is like again forgive how stupid of a question this feels but then am i just like going and buying a del pc to like sit right next to this or how to what else do i need here computer wise for the most part to generalize you just get almost any gaming computer will do uh every software has its own requirements um if you want to do 4k you know like if you want that those beautiful courses I was talking about with Trackman,

you're probably going to want a higher-end computer. Which I don't even know. The last time, I mean, I feel like I've bought, you know, MacBooks for video editing and stuff. But the last time I bought a desktop PC, I have was my freshman year of college probably. So like, what are we talking about for that investment? Yeah, I mean, you can, you can go to Best Buy and get a,

get a gaming computer for $12,500 bucks that'll run most of this. If you want those high settings, high resolutions, you know, get a closer to 2000. If you want to just, like, max everything out, $2,500 or $3,000, you know, range is kind of what we're talking about. Okay, so now I have another question. You know, again, I'm thinking about all this through my own lens, but I'm putting this all in my garage.

Yeah. It feels like now we've got to start thinking about heating the garage pretty universally through the winter. Or is this pretty resilient to some conditions? I mean, you're, as long as you're not golfing and freezing here, if it's comfortable enough to golf, you're probably fine, I would say. Okay, all right. With stuff like projectors, you know, that's always been a question back in the home theater days where it's like, hey, can I use this in my unheated garage? Like, well, yeah, if you want to sit there in a jacket, sure.

But what you don't want to do is like bring your equipment in from a cold place, bring it somewhere warm and turn it on and you'll have condensation. That's kind of the only big issue with that. Okay. Next question. Mats has to be just like a complete hornet's nest of options and ideas, I would imagine. Yeah, you could say that. Because at that point, it's almost all just personal preference. There's a lot of different approaches to how to make a mat to hit a ball off of.

People have opinions on what they like. And, you know, a lot of that is also a question of like how accurate do you want it to be to real turf. I mean, it's very difficult to simulate, you know, being able to take a divot out of sod. But there's on the flip side, it's very easy to blow. out your elbows. Yeah, that's absolutely true. But, I mean, there's hitting mats that feel like you're hitting just, just off of carpet on concrete, you know what I mean?

And if you hit, hit one of those fat, you're going to get a sore elbow pretty fast. And so there's just kind of like, how much do you want it to punish you if you hit under it? You know, there's mats that are like brush bristles where you hit it fat, you almost don't even notice. Yeah. Like, that's great for a guy like me because, like, really improves my game uh but that's kind of cheap i think if if you if you want to be simulating

a real shot uh you want a mat that's gonna that's gonna that's gonna grab your club a little without you know injuring you and that's really the sweet spot and and it really is everybody's a little different you know with what they like with that so do you notice maybe this is too technical of a question but do you notice any um you know like you said the the one that just passes right through and you should have chunked it but instead you flush it does that show up in the launch monitor as well or is that more of a feel thing no it's it's i mean it's both it feels great because it's like you know because it is great yes yeah um every shot is a real nice clean pick but the launch monitor is really only looking at what actually happens to the ball so if if the if the launch

monitor isn't grabbing your club at all you know you're going to hit it clean you're going to get you might not get the spin you want because it doesn't you know push against the ground at all but the you're going to get the benefit of that in launch manner because it's doing it's measuring exactly what happens in the ball it's watching frame by frame what happens with the spin the speed the ball is coming off the club so yeah um you know you the most of the time the software is going to like punish you if you're in the rough right um yeah but if just by knocking it down a percentage or yeah exactly so but if you're if in the game you're on a fair way and you're using one these mats that doesn't doesn't punish you at all and you hit it really fat the game has no idea

that you hit it really fat you know if if you didn't suffer your shot didn't suffer at all so okay back to our kind of which is why i love those maybe not for most people back to our uh are kind of like low medium high here yeah most basic option looks like what medium option what does that like, and then what's kind of the Rolls-Royce option? We have three different options, and it's, I hesitate to say it's like a good better best because, like I said, it's so just what do you like, you know, there's cost good, better, best for sure. You know, our basic mat is basically a kind of a thick foam with the turf on top, and the

turf is kind of thick. So, you know, between the mechanics of the foam and the turf work together to try to simulate what a what a real shot is like we have a lot of people who prefer that cheapest option the most just because they like how it feels um and that's hey good good for them because they have the cheapest you know replacement as as you wear it on the turf on it you want to replace it once in a while um and that's easy to do um but then for people who want a little more nuance to it we have uh we have a hitting mat that that is kind of a different level of foam and it has like a like a plastic sheet in it to give you a little more resistance as you as you as your club passes through it and

over the turf and then we have one that has like a gel core um that that really tries to simulate the the sod you know if you hit it you hit it really fat it punishes you more than if you don't you know what i mean um and that's that was really designed to do the best at simulating it um but again if if that's not what you want in your sim you want to have an easier time you know maybe that's not the the hitting mat you want so that's fine i'm not gonna judge that that might be like the most golfer thing ever is uh building a sim and just making it harder to hit the ball inside of your own house yeah but i mean there's also there's also other mats from third parties that we sell that that take different approaches um you know maybe maybe maybe there maybe the

foam is much stiffer and the and the turf is thicker so it just gives you you know your club grabs it just differently you know what i mean and that's where it's it's such a personal preference that i i stray from saying hey good better best is this yeah just try and you tell me what's good better best i think the the knock on simulator golf that a lot of people have is always putting yeah right how's that changed over the last decade or so um i feel like uh for the most part software gives up on it, which I actually, auto two putt. Yeah, it's like, it's, you know, simulating a putt that the launch monitors

just aren't, aren't looking for that. They're very, very good at all their shots, and they can measure a putt just fine. Like, the measurement is great, but when it comes to being, you know, making a good put, you're reading the green, and when it comes down to reading a green on a 2D screen, like there's, it's much harder to simulate than,

reading a fair way you know what i mean um so most software these days has like a number of options where you're like do you want to do you want to have no gimmies do you want to have like a one foot gimmie five foot gimmie do you want to have like an auto put so you land on the green and we'll tell you how many puts that should have been and just give that to you um there's a lot you know it's kind of whatever you want to do you can do um i don't i i i think it's usually fine like it's it's it's it's a less of an accurate simulation than all the other shots are and so if you're okay with that just keep putting but if you want to get a get it round in quick and hit the shots that you're getting the best simulation from do the auto put and once you get it on the green move on to

the next hole so um what did i forget anything anything in my setup that i haven't checked out on yet? I mean, we covered the space. That's the big one. Launch monitors, projectors, you know, the projectors is something, I would say people probably spend the most time on picking.

You know, usually the launch monitors are easier to narrow down to get what you need. The projectors are a little more technical where you want to get it in the range to work on your screen, but it can't be too far away or it'll cast a shadow from you stand in there. That's one of the things to be ready. to solve is like what's the best way to solve that is that you guys have videos about that or something yeah we have a projector calculator on our website so uh you can you can enter your screen

parameters and and uh you know find something with a throw that works um but yeah uh if you if you're not sure call us you know we we help with projectors all day every day so that's that's the quick version um yeah then then from there like like you said the mat getting the you want you get those things and everything else is just kind of accessorizing and and building you know what other little tweaks you want so I think moving away from like the actual building how did so there's a couple things I was reading some stuff on simulator golf and you know not surprisingly like everything else in golf it's kind of exploded a little bit since COVID I think one thing I read was

there's been something like three times more in like brick and mortar simulator places than there were three years ago something like that I think that's like tripled in the last three years what I guess what do you ascribe that to mostly I guess well I think I think simulated golf just just gets a different demographic you know it gets it's a cross between the sport and the video game and that's that gets a lot of people's attention that that you know they think of golf as kind of the stuffy old person thing and it's not really their thing. But, you know, you get, you get that kind of, you get that kind of top golf, you know, casualness to it and the video game aspect that people are really comfortable with. And it's easier to just go and try quick.

You know, it's, you're not going out on a course and dealing with like all the etiquette. You know what I mean? You can just go sit in a sim and bang away at it and, you know, have some fun. So it's a different, it's a different demographic that's interesting, that gets into it. And obviously that leads to, hey, this is fun. I'll go try the real thing. So I think outside of, you know, just simulator golf going up and up and up, have you noticed any more specific trends or like any specificity inside of that?

Like who's, who's putting them in or why, you know, any other trends you've noticed? Um, I mean, it's, it's, it's been, I, I, I love being in the position we're in because it's such a similar thing to watching home theaters from years ago where the same places that you would have been expecting to see a home theater get built is a golf simulator now. And so it's that, you know, we work tons with people who are building them in their homes. And so it's, it's, what I love about it is that it's all over the place. You know, you have them going into really high-end homes. You have them going into, you know, more middle-end homes.

class homes because you got a garage or a basement you can do this um so yeah the the the the interesting part about it is the broad scope of it i would say that that it's it's a lot of people are touching it so uh what about like at actual golf courses i mean i'm just very anecdotal but the club that i belong to just blew up a whole back room to say like we're putting in two more sims and they're booked all the time and it's like it seems great and it seems like a massive no brainer especially in this part of the country for a lot of those yeah it's It's a great add on to lots of different businesses like that. But of course, golf courses, we, we worked with a golf course a few years ago that, that converted its entire pro shop into golf sims because they're like, no one's buying anything in there anyway.

Let's put a couple of sims in there. And, and their tagline that I remember enjoying was that they had a, they were a bar with a golf course problem. And so having some sims in the pro shop was ideal. But yeah, I mean, we see that a lot. you've got a you got a storage room or a banquet hall or whatever that you're you know you're not getting the value out of and you know you put a couple sims in there and hey you know you can stay open longer you can stay open all year whatever it might be but on that same token you've got you know if it's a apartment building or hotel or or any type of any type of place like that where you know you might expect to have some type of multi-purpose space you know exercise rooms or whatever having a golf sim dedicated in there is just a huge advantage for a lot of people so i guess i kind of breeze past her i made an assumption about covid but i mean did things radically change for you guys i'm sure maybe from a material standpoint at first and then for just from an interest standpoint like yeah i mean the the the gulf

sim business was was before covid was already really picking up um we we saw a ton of growth in that in 2018 and 19 covid absolutely you know gave it a rocket boost and shot it up there, but then it continued really after that. You know, one of the big questions after COVID was, oh, will this continue? And at what pace? And it did. Like I said, COVID really, COVID really kind of let us skip forward a few years in terms

of gaining popularity and coverage and all of that. And so it's kind of just skipped up and we're still on the way up. So, I don't know what that makes me want to jump back to the beginning, but like, do you remember when you first made the, the switch from theaters to golf simulators? I mean, like, what was the first simulator you built? Do you remember? Well, at first, we only made screens. Yeah. It was, it was the same backyard theater screen we made, but we just used an impact material instead and we're like, hey, you figure it out.

I don't know. Do you remember the first time of you, I'm sure, put a golf ball through the screen to see if it was going to work? I remember we had enough calls and I said, all right guys let's actually find out we hung up all our different materials and put up a driver and was like nope that one doesn't work nope that one doesn't work and finally like okay we're going to need something special for this and yeah but then then we found some and yeah we started off just we were just putting like a finished edge on it and saying hey I don't know how you're going to do this you tell us and you know back in back in that era of the company I had

we had so many great suggestions and so many terrible suggestions too about how to how to put one of these screens up and i i took a lot of calls myself from people you know having ideas about how to put one up how to how to you know get in their garage or whatever and it was really like like 2015 through 2018 was like helping people do all kinds of weird stuff before we're finally like okay we know what the good ideas are at this point let's put them together into an enclosure that that you know all these people would benefit from and that's that's how our DIY enclosure was designed and came to be um and it was then once we did that we had even more ideas you know people had all kinds of other feedback we're like okay let's do it bigger and nicer and

that we have our pro enclosure but that's that's that's what I love about the the customer base we've always had and kind of the way we've always done it is we get all kinds of great ideas like said some not so great ideas too but the great ones um give us great paths to to you know ideas to to improve everything and give a give a great experience for people so i feel you is kind of like talking to a uh you know a coffee drink or something to be like well what do you drink in the morning what's your what do you have a setup at home what's your well no i have this you know i i live like three miles away so this is this is my setup and um i mean we have our trackman bay at the in our convert your room demo that's really nice um but they're they're all really they all have

different things like we have the in the middle one there we have the multi sport and so um you know it's it's not unusual that that my kids will like want to come in here for a friday night or something and yeah you can have way one kid on that one and one kid on that one and that's i mean we've got it really good here to to have you know a bunch of them in a row so and the showroom's awesome but i would imagine you're not just selling simulators to the people of milton cons and I'm sure these are these are going out ship everywhere I'm sure right yeah no that's our website

we ship worldwide so that's the vast majority of what we do is exactly that I mean we do have plenty of local customers too and people come from a surprising you know radius to come and check out the showroom here because there's that many places where you can try like all the

different launch monitors and hitting mats kind of all in one spot and so that's what we put together here yeah you have a little bit of like a you know kind of a battery of tests that you put them through here well and then that's the same for us you know our employees use this room and and our content team uses this room and so we we get we gain a ton of of experience with the the different launch monitors and products ourselves so this is a really excellent space that we have for for all that combined so what does the bowling alleys do that's just

I see as I saw as I walked in I saw the bowling alley A bunch of simulators in the the big Lebowski pinball machine Yeah yeah the bowling alley we're gonna get along great carl at our at our old place We put an addition on and that that was like 2020 2020 2021 and when we were building that I joked about how we needed to put a bowling alley in because this is a big building Yeah and then we started looking at it was like actually bowling alleys are pretty big And so this is how I feel feel when I'm like, I could put a simulator in here. I know how much space?

So we kind of shelved that idea. But then once we started building this building, we carved out this space for a showroom. And it was like, man, that's the perfect link. Just slot a couple lanes in right there. And yeah,

it's tons of fun. I mean, I like the comparison because I feel like golf simulation and golf simulators are like a a more modern version of the bowling act could not agree more and that's what i think about all the time with all these places popping up whether it's five iron or you know any of these like types of spots but even like you see them it's kind of turning to this mix of like the bowling alley if you want it to

be that or like the gym if you want it to be that there's enough of these places now that are popping up that are like here's your key fob book an hour on the app and you're not going to see anybody just come and go as as you please which is where i'm like on one hand i'm like man that feels it feels a little cold but then at the other hand I'm like that's exactly kind of what I'm looking for Yeah I mean hey like with a bowling alley Not many people have room for that in their house

Yeah More people have room for a golf sim Yeah If you don't have in that neighborhood place That you can pop in and and you know Use that area is huge so Yeah it's awesome All right well I feel like as far as kind of land in the plane here

If anybody's listen to this and is like Hell yeah I'm in I need to I need to build a simulator what do you what do you recommend they do what do you make sure that they they know eyes wide open going in you know how do they organize their thoughts here yeah i would say you know think about what you want out of it you know what's your what's your goal are you are you wanting for this to be a fun activity a way to improve your golf game like i said both um think about think about what you might want to spend on it crank that up a little more and then you'll you know it'll be that

much easier but no no really like whatever your budget is like you can fit it almost surely um but but think about think about what that is and and then think about where you know where do you want to apply that budget you know do you do you want to apply that with the the launch monitor technology with a great immersive experience you know uh you name it you know just think about how you want to tune that um you can you can check out the build your own tool on our website carlo vd.com um and you can play with all that different stuff and see how the how the different choices stack up we we have a lot of logic on there that helps you you know if you pick with this thing then you should pick this thing next um so that's that's a great way

to play with uh all the many different possibilities and if you have any questions let us know uh we have a whole team of people that have helped a lot of people do this and and can make it real easy for you so awesome well thank you for having me this is like i said this is uh far exceeded my expectations i'm like blown away at how cool of a setup you guys got here. So, uh, thanks for, yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for teaching me. Thanks for giving me a lot to think about with my garage. I don't know if my wife is necessarily going to thank you for that. Send some pictures of the space over and, you know, we'll draw it up for you. And, uh, like

said, give you some bullet points for, for, uh, how to, how to make the space not just for your sim. That sounds great. That sounds great. Yeah, there's probably some, some other efficiencies we can figure out. All right. Well, Carl, thank you very much. Appreciate it all the time. Thank you. It's been great having you.