No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1104: 2025 Birdies and Bogeys + Mike McCartin from National Links Trust

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

DJ, Tron and Soly have our final Sunday night pod of 2025 with a two part episode this evening. We start with a Birdies and Bogeys segment highlighting the biggest newsmakers and moments in 2025. Part two focuses on the news this week from the National Links Trust and the political involvement that could harm access to affordable golf in DC. Soly and TC visit with Mike McCartin - Co-Founder of the NLT - for the latest on the interactions with the White House and the mission and goals of the NLT.  Join us in our support of the Evans Scholars Foundation: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nolayingup.com/esf⁠ Support our Sponsors: Titleist East Sands Golf Co. Chapters: 00:00 - Intro / Birdies and Bogeys 1:16:05 - Mike McCartin - National Links Trust If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. Yes. I mean, that's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different?

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome. back to the No Laying Up podcast. Solly here, final Sunday pod of the year. We're going to be shutting it down for a little holiday celebration here shortly. Join by my guy, the clique himself, Mr. T.C. Hello, T. Ron. Hey, Sally. Apologies in advance for my

nasally voice tonight. I don't know if I'm allergic to the Christmas tree or what. I think I got you beat. But yeah, maybe just allergic to Jags being like a very legitimate team. Fair to say? I think at this point. I don't know. Yeah, I'm waiting on Neil's apology to James Gladstone and

Liam Cohen. Yeah, I'm blowing up my group text now while I can. It's fun at 11.4. DJ Pye is here as well. Hello, Mr. Pye, man. Hey, guys. I feel like I've been sick for about six months. And I finally feel like I got a clean bill of health.

Maybe you guys got some sort of rare, you know, Paulin down in Guatemala from your trip that I didn't get to go on when my heat went out of my house. But I don't know. That could be what's going on. We hit the rare five for five. All five of us went down this week and had very, varying levels.

So, yeah, it was a great one. But we're on a show for tonight. We're going to do some birdies and bogeys from 2025. It's kind of like winners and losers. We just felt like losers was a bit harsh. Loser is tough. Some of these people are losers. Some of the situations are losers.

But we're not going to say that. We're not going to say that. It's birdies and bogeys. Do not put those words in our mouths. Highs and lows. You call it whatever you want, you know. A few odds and ends from the week, not the most newsworthy week.

But then we have an interview on the end here that I hope everyone sticks around for with Mike McCarton from the National Links Trust. If you've seen some rumblings in the news about what's been going on there in D.C. And the project they have going on, that is all the details you would ever need to know about that one. And it's an excellent, excellent look into a really important place, important symbol, I would say, for public golf in America.

And some recent, unfortunate developments there and hopefully some solutions on that. But please stick around to the end of that one. winners from around the world this is short dp world toward jaden schaper hold out for eagle in a playoff to win the afrasia bank maricious open is that a national open tc maricious open yeah i mean maricious is a country right okay i've never heard you i've never heard you i mean i don't think it's an important national no i didn't say it's a bd i just there's you know there are there are new national opens Alterate field

National Open The PGA team Coacher won the PNC championship I do not think we're going to be breaking that one down guys We did not did not dive deep into that one No let's put that one behind the paywall possibly But same Cocher that got set home from the state championship The Florida high school state championship Earlier this year

I would have to assume so but I I refuse to dig into that TC that's kind of how I feel. Solly, before we get going, holidays are basically here, as people know, if you're scrambling for a last minute gift for the golfer in your life, here's a great option,

won't have you worried about shipping times, a gift card to tidalist.com. It's always a good sign when I'm reading the copy and I'm like, okay, yeah, last minute gifts, don't have to worry about shipping time. I was like, ah, that is a great idea. This is for you. Titleist.com, gift card is a great idea.

Who doesn't need golf balls? You know, maybe a little upgrade to a new club. Maybe get them a little, you know, get them closer to a new driver. Get them, get them something. Titleist gift card is, that is a great, great option. It has great features to explore from the selector tools to dial in your game from T to green to the custom fitting locator golf ball customizer, all kinds of things. You can buy the Mitz. Get the Mitz, you know.

We might not need the Mitz. The Mitz is, it looks like it's going to be warm. We might be getting some summer clothes here this week at Titleist.com. But, yeah, head over to titles.com to learn more, suffer for all weathers, T.C., all golfers, all levels of skill. And the gift card is a great idea. Like I said, to just kind of help people chip away at something new they're looking to get for the upcoming golf season. There's no better way to start a new. You've got to have a fresh couple dozen of balls to start the new year, right?

And it's just, it's, and you don't, it's better than trying to guess what kind of balls the person like to play. Get them the gift card, let them figure it out for themselves, all right? That's a great, great gift. so all right birdies and bogeys what we're going to do we're going to go around the horn we each got five birdies we each got five bogeys uh and we're going to go around the horn we kind of drafted these behind the scenes a little bit kind of dj kind of peed everywhere first and put claim to a lot of them tc um and i were left to kind of pick up the pick up the crumbs uh around this one i let so many things intentionally that i'm like oh i can't soli's going to want that

oh tc's going to want that i thought there was good scores out there if you guys were willing to dig for him. I resent that. Dege is going to kick us off. Where are you going to go first? You're as we're recap at 22.5. Who gets a birdie? I am going to go controversial opinion here. First choice on the board, you know, you think you got to go one way, but I'm going to go the other way and say Rory McElroy. Maybe not the greatest statistical season. I think, you know, Scotty's fourth player of the year. Like, I'm sure we're going to hear about that later. But man, when I think back on 20, 25,

I'm going to think about Rory. And I assume you guys. you guys feel the same way obviously became the first European to win the grand slam six person to ever do it uh got the master's monkey off the back broke the 11 year major drought and it wasn't just that you know it was like pebble starting off the year at pebble with a very definitive victory rolling into the players slamming the door there in the playoff winning the irish open being the absolute dude at the rider cup winning that on foreign soil for the first time and however long it's just a uh i don't know so the most interesting year i can i can remember outside of tiger like probably since spieth in 2015 at least maybe more

interesting than that i mean the guy won the grand slam and it's just one of those that i feel like we kind of slept on at times almost because there were the golf season so long first of all and he just got a little out of sight out of mind you know particularly like in the last few majors i think it was uh it was just such a sustained burst but it wasn't what scottie did where it was like I'm winning everything and I'm winning two majors and this, that, and the other thing. It was a strange year, but when you look it up, you know, when you like kind of total up the whole year, it's like, man, it's his year. He's, he's the birdie for me.

No mention of him being strangely bitchy for a good like eight to ten. It's a birdie. That's right. It doesn't matter how you make the scores later. It doesn't matter how you make the score, TZ. No pictures of the score cards. Yeah, I mean, one of the hardest things to achieve in the game. I know.

Yeah. And he kind of softened some of the rough edges a little bit the last two or three months, too. Like, I feel like he's, he kind of reflected and, you know, kicked his feet up a little bit. And then went to India and Australia and, you know, like traveled around the world and truly was a global ambassador for the game on top of it. Yeah, 100%. And the Ryder Cup, I mean, I think we did our fair share of glazing after after the Ryder Cup. But I truly some of the most impressive rounds of golf I've ever seen. considering the circumstances,

considering the crowd, considering what he's up against, the opponents, he's playing, like all of that stuff. It was just, I left so impressed by Rory after the Ryder Cup

and then you throw in everything else he did this year. And it's just, I mean, that's, that's birdie in the opener, I think, right there,

guys. I don't know, you know, what better time to do this than now. We're not going to spend this much time on it, on every one of these.

But over under 0.5, more master's titles for Roy McClory. I'm putting you guys on the spot with two questions here. 0.5 or 1.5? 0.5. 1 more more like 1.5 career. Yeah. Okay.

Do you think he wins another master's is the question? Gosh. I mean, he gets to plan him for their next, you know, for the rest of his life, basically. Yeah. Feels like his game's going to age well, long swing. I'll say yes. Yeah, I'll say yes. Why not?

I know we, I feel like we've divvied. them all out between now and 2052. There might not be any left, but we need to get these things on the blockchain to, because we're in there's such inflation. I think, renting majors. I think yes, just because if what he says is true,

I guess you can cut this either way, you know, where he's, he's saying that like, I'm going to dedicate more time to majors. That's going to be my focus. You can either convince me that part of the reason he won the Masters this year was, you know, his win at Pebble and his win at the players and staying sharp throughout those. Like, you

convinced me that either he he starts squeezing the bat too tight at the majors or he convinced me that he's you know saw your favorite phrase like he's freed up and uh and ready to go get it so i'll take the optimist view there and say that yeah why not i mean scottie's going to win the next 10 probably right maybe maybe rory wins the 11th it's all just to be clear we're saying this is just the masters not like just the european masters the oh interesting the master's tournaments yes the u.s masters as they call overseas. I'm honestly so torn. It's a good line.

It's a really tough one. It's a really, really tough one. I don't think he's going to be like freed up. I don't think it like opens the floodgates for master's titles. I think there's legitimately some as we saw on the back night as he won it, some major scar tissue there. And I don't necessarily think that goes away just because he's got one.

But, you know, but he should. I think he should. But also the Scotty thing is a problem. I'm going to say no. He's got a love to deal with too. Yeah.

I don't know if that's a birdie or bogey for this year. But I'm going to say, I'm going to say no, just because I think it was really, really hard. It took him 17 tries to do it. And I think he's got eight or nine good ones left. And he's got a massive Scotty problem in front of him. So Scotty, but yeah, I don't know. We don't have to spend too much more time on this.

But like I feel like, I feel like a lot of those other guys didn't get any closer to winning a Masters this year. if that makes sense. Yes. You know what I'm saying? Like Scottie feels like he, you know, yes, I'm going to be in position. I'm going to win the next 10 unless I get bored and decide to, you know, go do something else with my life.

But I don't think Colin took a step forward. I don't think, I mean, Zander had injury stuff, but he had a weird year. And then who else? It's like J. Bryson. Bryson would be the nominee. Rom, obviously. It's like, can't leave.

Like, I don't know. There's just a lot of those other guys that three years ago, I would have been like, oh, they're definitely going to win one that I'm like, I'd like to sell some of that stock. And Spice definitely win two more, though. That's for sure. Now we're out to what, 309, something like that.

Yeah, it's interesting. Watch this space. We will cover it. Whoever, whoever wins. All right. I bogged us down there. Let's go. Let's go to the next.

T.C., what's your birdie? I'm going to go with Tommy. Yeah, you know, I could go LB. Roy. I could go whatever, but yeah, Tommy Roy. It's just, you know, NBC really, really stepped up of the plate this year. No, I just, I think Tommy, between not just the, the wins, but the losses and how he,

how he conducted himself and acquitted himself and he got right back on the horse, right back to it. And I don't know, man, like that was, I said it in the moment, you know, when I was in Atlanta there, like, that's why I watch sports, you know, is, is Tommy losing in heartbreaking fashion to one of my least favorite players like of the last decade at the travelers and then going toe to toe with a great man and team rose at Memphis and getting his heart ripped out again. And then on top of that, you know, just just coming back and beating a limited field of 29 other guys, 28 other guys really. I don't think Sep was there, right? So 28 other guys

and, you know, and being able to to call himself a champion golfer of the year. You have champion golfer of the year. U.S. champion golf for the year. Oh, God, that's good. Not just the wins, but the losses. Is it a lovely, lovely bit of phrasing that is very unintentionally funny. That made the winner. No, I know.

I know. He's a freaking man. Like, I think he played outside of Scotty, like, I would say second half of the year. Like, he played like the best golf of anybody in the world. 100% and half of the year. Yeah. Agreed. It was a big leap from an already very good player.

to get in the dub and just the floor is so much higher for Tommy now. And you just kind of burst through a door that a lot of others opened up, which we'll get to. But it's Tommy's, and then is daddy, you know, tried to put Ted Scott in a body bag at the rider cuff too. One of the 60 things I had already forgot about that rider cup.

It's going to be fun to revisit. Solly, what was your first one? My first one is a co-award here. I'm taking two of them here. but the new leadership put in charge of the PGA tour and the LPGA tour, they'd great 2025s. Probably the easiest part of what they'll have to do is like, you know,

coming in, saying you're going to change a lot of things. In Craig Kessler's situation, he did change two things that I view is very, very, very important. One, overhauling the LPGA television production. Second one, moving the Chevron away from Carlton Woods, which was not a worthy major site. And we will see how all this stuff works out. That's going to be a 2026 thing. the TV coverage is that much better.

I hope Memorial Park is a much better major championship venue. I hope Brian Rolap is able to act on all the things that he's saying he would like to and the things he would like to blow up. Again, the easy part is kind of the saying of these things. Doing it is a lot harder,

but undoubtedly big birdies. I think that the vibe especially, you know, kind of being here in Pontevira, like the vibe around the tour is totally different in a positive way. And it's, there's some real momentum going forward. I think there's it's hard to picture from what I like about pro golf like a better nominee to get into that on the men's side. And again, I've just heard nothing but positive

things on the women's side. So I'm stoked at where the game is headed on both the PJ tour and LPGA tour sides. It's true. Solly, I ran into some tour employees either night and it truly feels like the home alone scene when Kevin goes down in the basement or when he when he goes outside and He's like, I'm not afraid anymore. They're all like, holy shit, I'm not afraid anymore. We have real leadership. We know what our mission is. We know, we know, like, we have confidence in what we're doing and that we have a plan.

We're not afraid anymore. Did you hear that? I'm not afraid anymore. You want to snake it back? We'll snake it. We're going to snake these. My bogeys for 2025, I just say just Team USA Golf. That is not the USA Rider Cup team.

I think it's just like, I don't know where to put the blame on this one again. So I'm using a very broad. Are you including the Walker Cup team? Yeah, they got a dub. That's unfair. The Palmer Cup team. The professional team USA golf, like the, again, I would say the leadership, but I don't know who the leadership is, right?

I think part of the reason why I've been such a Ryder Cup fan has been this intrigue of like, Can we do a U.S. Olympic basketball overhaul and like, hey, let's start. We were obviously incredibly talented. Let's revamp how we do this. Let's take it extremely seriously. And let's come up with a plan. Let's execute it like over the next several decades. And just throwing all of that out the window to pick it as a captain and have it go wrong the way that it did was just like, oh, there's no one in charge.

Like there's no, there's no hope here. And like they should. If there's now a time to overhaul. it's now and from what i've heard they the captain's already been decided on for 2025 and it's not necessarily an overhaul move and it's just like man i and a nuts pick on jt but the recent interview we did with him didn't make me think like they're they're they're close to getting it they're they're understanding that they're doing it wrong and need to change it i think they're just going to kind of still run the same playbook back and i think it's a massive bogey this year and um it's a tough

scene i'm i'm definitely losing passion uh for like my rooting interest on that side which sucks lose yourself what's going on dc uh well sally you know i've got i've got one of those team usa participants for my next boge or my for my first bogey really uh callumorakawa uh he had that weird deal at bay hill uh he had two solo seconds early in the year that was the best golf he played all year and uh went out with a whimper um he went through what half a dozen 10,000 caddies this year, five or six caddies. He said, I don't owe anyone anything after Bay Hill. And then he had that bizarre press conference at the players,

tripled down on it again at the Masters, just kept like compounding errors, Sally. We're making, you know, it was not one really bad swing. It was just compounding errors. We just got to get the ball back in the fairway, right? Kind of lucky to make bogey, to be honest, after all that. Exactly. Exactly.

And then, you know, he had his rise. Cup comments about causing chaos and everything and you know they try to blame him for the crowds say like everyone he probably shouldn't have been on the direction on the morcao he shouldn't get he shouldn't have been on the rider cup team to begin with he only gets half a point uh just bad he was misused maybe use the skill that he has and set the course up to benefit morocale but we can get on that later but yes bad year for morcau i'm yeah bad year that's that's a good one i will uh i'll kick off off my bogeys with just, I don't know how you call it, like the, I'm just going to say the idea of playing 54 holes, uh, that apparently is, is no more, uh, said this, I think when it happened

like pretty pretty firmly, but I think we're so far gone in the discourse, the capital D discourse around pro golf that we just can't really appreciate how funny it is that live is moving to 72 holes. Uh, I think, you know, it's like, it's not even fun to go like pull the quotes and be like look this is what they said like these guys are are full of shit because like nothing matters and everything outside the majors is kind of varying degrees of on fire right now but I think the you know the world is just going to kind of move on from this one and people are going to continue to not watch 72 holes instead of not watch 54 holes but I think if you I'm getting this one on the record if you're listening in like 2032 or something I just want

to remember how funny this is that they they moved away from this they fucking name the league live after the Roman numerals for 54. Everybody's talking about how it's okay to take this money because they want to spend more time with their families. They're doing all with somebody was doing all the math about like this, how many more nights at home? Because we're only playing 54. It just makes, you know, it just makes sense.

Who wouldn't want to work less for more money? There was so much growing the game talk. There's all, it was just like, it just rules that they're, they're now just like, no, actually that was never, that was never a core part of the league. I don't know what you guys are talking about. They called it innovation. They called it innovation moving from 15.

54 to 72 holes. The name of the league is L-G. So, yeah, I don't know. It's just a, just a tough one, but a very funny one, I think. Remember how, like, it's just this offseason two. It was just like, just sad how, how just nobody gave a fuck if Siwu Kim or Sung-Ji were going. And they, like, they drummed up the fake news that they were going. And apparently Sewu was close and blah, blah, blah.

And it was going to be the massive big deal. and then it's now it's not a big deal that they're that they're not going like they just don't well no i thought i saw flushing it was was posting on x the everything app today that talks are back on sally oh interesting you know but see who already posted on instagram playing the pGA tour so again like yeah it's just so freaking it's it's not even like funny anymore like we it's just it's hard to do the same thing every week and laugh at it because like if you guys wanted to i would be down for it but i feel like i'm kind of like the one putting the lives stuff on there. You guys like, all right, it's time to fucking move on, but it's still, I went to

another live event this year. What are you talking about? No, but I mean like just reiterating how stupid they sound this week, which is every week, but like recently, what did Scott O'Neill say? He said something like, you know, PJ Tour has more depth beyond 25. Like the top 25, I've compared them, like the fields are similar. It's like, Liv has three of the top 25 players in the world, not OWGR, like actual top 25 players. And PJTor is like 22 of them. I mean, but Scott O'Neill said that they're bigger outside the U.S. They own golf outside the U.S. The P.G.4 owns golf inside the U.S.

Yeah. You guys champion golf for the year. All right, let's take it back. In better news, I would say the antithesis of this news. I'm going to say my next birdie goes to the Walker Cup. A lot, lot, lot of things in golf, maybe everything in golf, I think is done basically just purely out of optimization. at this point, where can we make the most money? Where can we do, you know, sell the most merch?

Which honestly, like, maybe Cyprus in this conversation, like maybe that is optimization where it's like the people who care the most about the Walker Cup are going to care the most about going to Cyprus and are going to buy the most merch. And that is, maybe that is, it does make business sense. But the point of that is, like, what a lovely marriage, right, of interest and an event and just something that's like, you know, what would be the dream is if we did it this way. And then it actually happens.

and they do it that way. And you get to see incredibly high-level golf, some of the best golfers in the world genuinely playing the least visible, most interesting, you know, one of the least visible, most interesting golf courses in the world. Phenomenal. It allowed me to see Cyprus for the first time. Obviously, that's bumping it up my list.

It was very cool to be there in person with both of you guys. But that's, yeah, I mean, that's like, that's pretty much as good as it got this year for me, was going to that event. Dej, I would say another benefit to that is I think we've just firmly identified Michael Lassasso as the villain that person of interest. Yes. Yes.

I will be subscribing, subscribing to your news letter, my man. And I would love to see what you're up to. Yes. Such a good call. TC. I will say Bertie's, uh, I'll say, Scotty Sheffler. I don't think we need to belabor it, but, you know, birdie there. I honestly thought we might just let that one go and just like that one,

you know, that one was too easy. We're, you know, we've done the Scotty thing this year, too many, you know, it doesn't really good. Yeah. I don't think he deserves better than a birdie. Honestly, I think it, it might be selling him short there to call his, his season of birdie, but not a ton to add there with, I'm with you, dude. Um, I got three unexpected leapers. I'll be brief on one of them. What is that what these parlays you're doing here? Stacking all these into one thing. Is this what it feels like when I do that?

I was like, dude, T.C. is supposed to be doing this? I would, in this category, I got Ben Griffin, J.J. Spahn, and Robert McIntyre. There were some voids left by some of the top players in the game. I'd say nobody took advantage of that better than Ben Griffin did. He was 41 in the day to golf rankings to start the year, finished the year at 5th. he won three times one of them being a team event but won three times this past season

made the Ryder Cup team was close to winning other tournaments as well just like a massive massive massive leap JJ Spawn I think this is going to come up later I'll just defer mine later we can just do it let's just do it now okay he was 77 to start the year

made his way to eight not only that's all he didn't even play a major last year literally didn't even play any of the majors and he won the fugging U.S. Open this year and almost won the players like it's just an incredible run robert mackintyre also almost won the u.s open uh he went from

23rd to 11th not the same level of leap but like in my mind went from like all right kind of like a you know this is a nice little story to like this is this player is way better than i was giving him credit for in previous iterations and the thing that stuck out to me about all three of these guys mathematically i don't know if they are worth the three biggest leapers but they were they are all doing it without loud tools like without like distance without you know in sane, you know, iron play or anything in particular or just kind of fluky putting or something like that, just really well-rounded all-around games. Griffin has added speed kind of on the second half of the season that paid dividends and kind of lined up really well with a lot of success

he had. But again, just like not massive prospects, not, you know, J.Spawn pretty far into his career as well as this happened was just like really, really, really impressive. And flagging because like, I mean, just mathematically and logically. like unlikely to sustain I think at all these levels for these guys but I'll be seriously intrigued to follow each of them in the next year to see how long they can sustain this run. Yeah, only thing I'll add on the

JJ Spawn front that I had in my notes was he was very open about some of the confidence stuff I think and like where his head's been the last couple years and then he shows up in that playoff against Rory and like just looks pretty outgunned you know and even though he had kind of

turned stuff around it had a nice season up until that point it was like those kind of moments can go one way or the other, right? Like, that would have been, uh, it wouldn't have been shocking if that was the high point of his season. And instead he just keeps rising and goes and wins the US open almost wins a playoff event and just kind of doesn't really have the, the big hangover either. You know, they played really good golf the rest of the year and his iron play rose like

crazy at his best putting year, uh, of his career. And it's just kind of one of those like, yeah, is it, it pales in comparison, obviously to Rory and Scotty and Tommy. all these other great stories of the year. But it's a moment of appreciation for JJ Spawn, for sure, because it's those types of careers, I don't know, maybe just as I get older and older. I think I tend to appreciate those types of people more and more

who kind of continue to reinvent themselves. It's all pretty telling that you didn't put SEP Straca in there too. That is interesting. One twice this year doesn't have loud tools. I think I already thought quite highly of SEP prior to this year. I wouldn't consider that as big of a leap. So that's, yeah, that is telling of, like, how highly I already thought of, so the West Coast MVP, if you remember right. That's true.

Again, flagging, like, where JJ Spahn was to start the year, he was 70s. Mack Meisner is the 78th ranked player in the world right now, like in Data Golf again. Imagine that guy being in the top 10 at the end of the year and winning a major next year. Just going to win a major. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Daniel, I mean, Daniel Berger's 77, like, you know, that's kind of a confusing one in terms of he's got a history, at least of being a really, really good player.

But yeah, Sebastian Munoz, Chandler Blanchett are kind of in that range. And like, that's the lead that JJ spawned me. So, back on to bogeys, guys, it just, what a great, it might be equitable stroke control with a bogey for the PJ of America. It was not, it's not a great year. It's just put me down for five, man.

Yeah, I would have made that. I would have made that one. Just put me down for five. I mean the whole Don Ray situation he probably could have garnered a mention or voted on his own probably don't need to revisit all of that I'd say just Quail Hollow

and Valhalla back to back unfair of me maybe to include 2024 in there but like we don't really have the venue selection down we also really don't know what we're talking about when it comes to the rollback Derek Sprague made some outrageous comments on the Devin claiming not to have been involved in conversations around the rollback

choosing Keegan as the captain granted that was a 2024 decision but that was laid bare in 2025 as to how silly that whole thing was being insufficiently prepared for the Ryder Cup at Bethpage despite like a decade of warning of all the things that are guaranteed to go wrong if you don't take this seriously it was kind of their lack of both on and obstacle lack of willingness to hit rage balls just all showed up with the with the turn of it started this year I think because you're right like a lot of this is just like 2020 2020 stuff all festering and it all just kind of showed up on the T this year. I mean, Sali, how about the fact that I won right underneath their headquarters? Of course, go watch our club

championship video. You have no idea what T's spoil that if that's the case. Referring to. Heather McMahon situation, that wasn't great. It was a comically comically bad year. And yeah, again, this is probably

for Heather McMahon. I love that nobody put down Nobody put Don Ray outright on this list. It's truly equivalent to like Scotty. It's like, yeah, I mean, we just talked about. We know that. Yeah. I mean, that's just, you know, we don't need to do that one.

I went to his LinkedIn and he hasn't posted since, since his new level, new devil thing. And again, he was a pretty chronic poster on there. He did update his, his personal website with his kind of state of the union address from mid-November at, you know at kind of the PGA summit there but otherwise he uh you know i think he's he's been sufficiently muzzled this is unfortunate for for people that make content for a living that's a that's a tough one tc your next boge uh just the mules generally i feel like they just keep taking ls and uh you know whether with the the the upcoming schedule changes is the, you know, the revised board of directors for, for PGA Tour Enterprises and, you know,

FSG and SSG, is it SSG or SGS? I always forget. SSG. Strategic sports group. They, you know, them getting their, their hooks into the tour. And, and I just think, you know, you'll eat, like even some of the mules over on the DP World Tour are, are unhappy with, with some of the U.S. Meals coming over there and hoovering up some spots. So it's tough.

Invasive fuels. Just again, always just tough. Again, worth emphasizing for the people that aren't as good at golf as the best players in the world. Like it's, it's tough. They're a persecuted class. It is tough, admittedly, just to be of the 30 million people that play golf to be like between number 82 and.

And like 200 is like, what a fucking joke that guy is. You know, it's like that. Yeah, that is that is a tough. Oh, they're not jokes. They don't have. Only jokes if they talk out of turn. Exactly. Yes.

Well, well said. Well said. Is that bringing it to me? It does. Uh, maybe recency bias here, but this one just was in my,

was in my notebook. I'm going to, I'm going to throw out kind of the, the Callaway top golf situation. More, more top golf, I think, uh,

on that front. Just a weird rise and fall compared to where top golf was a few years ago as we were, you know, was constantly being flagged and touted as like the future of golf by people and kind of seems like it's ended up being a little more novelty than having any actual connection to golf.

If you missed that, that news, Calloway just sold. I think the majority of their share, like 60% of their share for basically like 45% less than they paid for it five years ago. And just honestly, a weird situation all the way around. I think they would maybe consider that a birdie.

Possibly. They really get that much for it. Yeah. You know, I think that's stock prices up pretty drastically the last seven to eight months. Yeah. I think I think that's that's probably true. And I don't know.

It's a weird one because like I, I, uh, you know, have fallen for the novelty of top golf. I've been there many times. I haven't been there in years and years at this point. But it's, it's one of those that I'm like, yeah, man,

I like the idea of, of different entry points into the, game. I'm not trying to be a snob at all, but I'm like, man, I wish that all this time and energy and effort was connected to like real golf is kind of how I, how I end up feeling. And a little bit of this is, yeah, just like, what did you think was going to happen? You know, it's like it's, what if we took bowling, but we made it ungodly expensive, you know? And it's like, well, yeah, everybody's kind of done it three or four times now. And yeah, I'm good. I think I'll just watch a movie or go do something else. And it's, uh, so it's just a,

I don't know, just kind of checking in on, in contrast to where we were probably five, six years ago with a lot of that conversation. You compare that to like Dobson Ranch range and the Ashersturf putting green they have there and that setting and like how that is attracting golfers, like repeat visitors. Like that's the whole thing that's missing from the top golf model. Like there's still a, there's still a space in the market for something like that, but it's got to cater to hardcore golfers. It's possible maybe so many people got hooked on the game at Top golf that they, just started going to real courses. Possum. Now you drink the game.

Yeah. Maybe the game just got so big. I don't know. Well, Dij, if you want to hear about people, you know, doing actual stuff to grow actual golf. Sure,

please. Stick around to the end of our episode. Oh, yeah. There you go. Well, I was going to say, I think it kind of leads into your next birdie as well.

I had JJ Spawn was my next, my next one, which we already covered. So, well, you know, I was going to say another L is just, I know Don Ray. I think he has a top chase,

tracer range. He's kind of partly at his, the top tracer ranges are sick I like those every time I go to every time I go to one of those it has like the top tracer technology out of range is great

I just yeah I don't need to be hitting it into I don't know I don't need to be like it doesn't need to come with $43 mozzarella sticks you know it's like I just kind of want to hit balls and like know the data and where it's going it's I think the problem she wants to take the family to top golf

it's so expensive I know I know I never know whether I bring my own clubs either. Or glove? Are you gloves and top golf guy? I do not have to answer that. Legally. I do not require it.

My lawyers recommended I'd not say anything on this matter. All right. Well, DJ, you know, JJ spawn. Yeah, well learned there. Great, great bird. I'm going to say the Australian opened. We talked about it a few weeks ago. And it's back.

I think it's back. And it's definitely back for 2026 as well, going to, going to Kingston Heath. And I think just, I don't know, it's like the perfect November, December event to have on the calendar at a great golf course. And it hadn't been to Rome, Melbourne or really a golf course of any consequence in a long while. And I'm, you know, I'm stoked for the ladies to, to, you know, have their own Australian open here coming up. the spring as well of you know like the the whole co-ed thing just didn't work and it and it dumped it down on both sides and I'm glad to have like two proper national opens instead of zero down there yeah no no tcm i'm with you birdie this is an easy and quick one again just kind of

continuation of what they've built in the last several years but cbs uh just continues to stunt man and they just i thought they had a great year i just was generally like reflecting on this year and I'm like, what do I, you know, what did I, like, look forward to doing? What did I, like, enjoy doing? And it was like, man, like, their tournaments on Sunday, I got, like, legitimately jazz to watch, which I would not say is the case, like, four years ago. And I'm just, four years ago, I thought that way about NBC. Yeah. You know, where it was like when they, when they had some of the bigger stuff and it, the right crew and all that stuff, like, it is, yeah, it's just totally flipped.

But that is how I felt, I think, back then. And that is the flip was my next bogey was NBC. and just specifically what they did around the Ryder Cup. Just I ran a quick, just found it. I ran a quick straw poll. I forgot to like clarify, I meant NBC only. So like UK folks got to vote in this and they love their coverage over on Sky. 92%.

Love your coverage. You can keep your coverage. Was awful. 92% around like you get 92% of the country to agree on anything. All in agreement that they're just like legitimately potentially ruining the game of golf. for like the next generation of fans. They're not trying. They're not trying.

And there's no indication that they will. And they get a massive bogey. Can we, I'm going to go back to the previous whole review your score. You know, I want to dig into your birdie. But can we also add CBS adding Johnson Wagner this week as well? I feel like it's another massive, massive step in the right direction and a huge positive. I think he's going to be electric and just exactly what you're looking for out of a golf commentators. So that continues to add to that birdie, solid, make it look even better.

Yep. Happy. I think Colts, yeah, Colts grown a lot. I think he's turned into a very above average announcer. And I think Johnson and Dottie on the ground is going to be awesome. Yeah. Dottie's, you know, at the peak of her craft. Yep.

Guys, I snuck a mid-round par in here. It didn't, it didn't really qualify for either birdie or both. It was totally a mixed bag this year. That's the cleaks. That was a total bogey. Didn't they finish like 11th out of 12 teams? Well, they did on course. They finished 11th.

But you forget about the off course wins. Yeah. So the rebrand. January 2025, they unveiled their brand evolution. This is, you know, Jonas Martinson, the guy that came from, I believe, Minecraft, Tap the Global Experience Agency AKQA to create an updated brand position. positioning, identity, and design that embodies their desire to pay homage to the beauty and tradition of golf while embracing the future of the sport.

Then they brought in my guy- I did admittedly forget about that part, T.C., you're right. Jacob Felender for the Read Between the Lines Collection. He's a renowned artist. He, you know, joined forces with the cliques to bridge the world of golf and art, reimagining the game through creativity and innovation, in all sorts of VR and AR, are pushing the boundaries of artistic expression through the lens of golf.

This that unveiled at LiveGolf Miami. I was there to see that as well. And then, you know, we had, we had a public drip. We had that co-lab as well. What else? Was the bag this year or last year? The bag was this. Yeah, they had the very expensive.

$25,000 handbag or whatever. Yeah, yeah, that was very cool. They had, they had the garden party. stuff as well which was which was you know captivating and yeah just generally speaking I think we've got a we've got a good one

in Victor Perez you know obviously a trying year Blandy did make the cut at the PGA championship against all odds on maybe the worst course like in the world for him Quill Hollow and he made the cut

so you know more to come from the cliques you haven't heard the last the Cleeks. They get a, they get a franchise Vic Perez, I feel like,

right? You can't let it. I mean, that's, you can't let him leave. I mean, you just got here. I know.

That's what's saying. They didn't sink their closet. I mean, that's the only thing they got going for him. T.C. We can take that offline. Talk that,

talk about that on cleaks talk behind the paywall. I think it's your pick as well, bogeys. Oh, okay. It is. It is.

Yeah, that was a good part, though. Let's see here. Boge-wise, I'm going to say John Rom just you know disappointing

just not I need John Rom playing well in the majors I need John Rom relevant I need the fiery Spaniard to be the fiery Spaniard wasn't he the player of the year on Liv I think he was didn't win though but he didn't win

though yeah yeah it feels feels very very hollow so it's just like you know like talking about it before the Masters or before the u.s. open and you're like you're just like man like all right like or really even for port port rush rom is like rom is going to show up at one of these and it just didn't happen

very disappointing i'm with you just reading into the record his major championship results from this year t 14 augusta t8 at pGA t7 the u s open t34 at the open championship that's like yeah that's good finishes but not competitive had a chance at the PGA and pooped all over himself coming in there and then that wasn't really close to the US open masters there's not there's like 50 guys in the field T14 doesn't really do do much for me anyways it's a limited field event uh bogie for me I'll say uh I'll say golf Twitter I think we've been trending I think we've been

trending this way for Cough X uh trending this way for for a while, but this feels like the year where the spike really kind of got driven in the heart of what used to be a pretty great thing. And I think they've made it very clear that they're interested in kind of catering to the dipshit carnival barkers. And it just is not a not a great place to hang out pretty overwhelming to even even log on. I think it still can be very functional as like a one-way conversation. You know, I still do occasionally. I love seeing what you guys are posting. I love seeing like a couple other people that I'm that I'm following. You know, you catch a random tweet here or there, but I mean, the comments section of below everything is a

disaster. You got to scroll through 50 car crash videos to try to see anything that is of use. It's just, yeah, it's just kind of a mess that's not very fun to hang out with, which is a bummer because it's responsible for many, many, many of my best friends in the world is kind of where I met them so it's uh yeah just kind of a a boge i would say still has its moments but it's it's it's mostly dead yeah it's just tough that it's you get rid of the like you know you get rid of the timeline like the timeliness of it and you get rid of you you amplify all the worst voices in the world uh it's just yeah it's crazy that it's crazy that it's what happened uh david roth i remember uh wrote wrote for deadspin forever and rice for defector now i remember he wrote like when the changes

really started happening. He wrote kind of like a retrospective on Twitter and he always used to refer to it like a house party. You know, it was like, yeah, it was just a lot of people just kind of hanging out and occasionally you'd walk into like a weird room and you'd be like, yeah, these people are kind of interesting and you could either back out or you could learn more, but you know, you could mostly just find your people and bless up. Yeah. And he's like, now it's kind of just a house party where like everybody just puts their finger in your chest and backs you into a corner and just screams wrong or, or whatever way worse stuff. Even when you're not. wrong that's his best part constantly and I'm like I don't think I would hang out at that house

party for very long I think I'd probably just leave and that seems to be I'll tell you with attack that many people have taken I'll tell you what one of those fun house parties was was was was darts Twitter solid just this week said he's he's been you know much like birds he's been he's been looking at getting into darts I love it that's great the guy I forget his name and I'll look it up he comes out to bulletproof I got there's bulletproof Darts walkout. He's got like an electric walkout. Stephen Bunting. That's my guy. I don't know if he's good or not. Darts said it. Michael Van Gurwin's my guy. Yeah, they had a serious moment over the last couple

years here. Uh, anyways, that's, that's, that's what I had. It is a sad one. All right, last two rounds. We can go through these quickly. Sure. Uh, birdie here for me. Let me just say up front, I feel 1,000 years old, uh, saying this and, and, and grouping this into, uh, the phrase that I'm going to say, but that is YouTube golf. guys. I think this is, again, it's been building and building and building. None of this came from nowhere. I'm well aware of that, but it feels like the year that this absolutely popped in a massive, like mainstream, I guess is the way, but like the mainstream feels so disconnected from it still. It's just a very, a very weird thing, but it's a couple of things that I found in my

research. The internet invitational videos, I did something like 25 million views. And that's without any of the reactions or the reactions to the reactions to the reaction. Like just, I think the main videos, I think I read, did something like 25 million views, which is insane. And that outperforms and dwarfs so much golf that costs so much money to televise and produce and market and promote and set up. And it's just bananas, man. And it also, I think, beyond the just the views, because the views are one thing and, you know,

whatever, it just feels like inescapable, right? I mean, you hear people talking about it. it genuinely constantly you see freaking lebron is tweeting about watching george and west brian and grant horvatt and yeah it's just you know to a lesser extent then you had like the another round of creator classics and the live duels and like clearly trying to glom on and roll these things into legacy products to to mix results it's just uh i don't know it's just it's fascinating and i think it a lot of it is not for me i'm perfectly i think content being kind of an old guy on the on the sidelines wishing everybody well but uh it is just so

clearly one of the biggest macro stories in golf and and i don't know how else you can say it can i read one thing into the record deed just because i see this commonly trooped out there the mad scientist at my golf spy made this mistake uh recently as well just for the the the counting of the views is very different than television counting of course right i saw this you know the internet Invitational Outranks every golf event of the years. No, TV ratings are like an average of viewers over that period of time. If you counted up all the viewers,

it would look a lot different, you know, like all the views count on YouTube. That is not to say that 25 million people watching that is not a massive fuck ton of people. It's insane. It's in your right, like it's so massively popular.

Bryson's videos are so massively popular. Him being on there, I think it's elevated the entire space and just like added a level of credibility. to it all, too. There's so clearly more people watching him play golf on YouTube than watching and play competitive golf week to week. And that's one of those things that's like, you almost become like the frog in boiling

water where you don't realize like it's happening, I think. But it's almost one of those things that you'd feel like you'd be like, man, eventually this might flip, you know? And it's like, no, it's flipped already. It's over. Like it's crazy how much, how many more, like in the Bryson example, I'm saying. Like it's crazy how many more people are watching that than live. Yeah.

Which costs five billion. fucking dollars to put together it's in seven or eight billion dollars sure yeah throw it on the pile uh anyways it's just yeah it's just i don't know where it's going or what the future holds or anything but it is it has to be fascinating yeah i'm going to go off the board here um because i kind of saw it happening in real time and then but i didn't really circle back to see quite how it's kind of similar to DJ's frog in boiling water thing is the Japanese women on the LPGA tour, they, you know,

they won two of the five majors this year with Mao Saigo winning the Chevron and Miyu Yamashita winning the AIG Women's Open. I think they won, let's see, six times overall. Nasa won, Yamashita won, the Maybank. You've got the Northwest Arkansas Championship really doesn't count. They didn't really even play that. So we won't count that for Minamikatsu, but one of the EY twins, one in Portland, and then the other EY twin won in, in Mexico as well. So, and then Rio Takeda won the Chinese event, the China event in March. So you've got that many. And just, just looking at the world rankings or leaderboards week to week, they have, they're kind of bumping up against the South Korean ladies

as far as dominance goes and just as I was looking at this as well again throwing out the Northwest Arkansas Championship because I think they only played like one round there were more there were only three US winners on the LPGA tour this year

which is crazy there were four Swedish winners this year it's a country of like nine million people where they can play golf you know, seven months a year. I feel like that that's deserving of a bogey. Yeah.

The Chevron finish you mentioned was maybe deserving of a birdie. Not the greatest. Birdie and a quad. I know what an electric finish. Yeah, that's awesome. On a somewhat similar note, TC, a birdie for me is Gino Titicum. Absolutely outrageous year. She had won three times, including her second straight

CME group tour championship. She cleared the 3.0. like strokes gained amount that like scotty has cleared on the men's side uh she's over a shot clear of everyone in the world not named nelly and mingy uh it's obviously the whole on the resume is the major she basically won one this year and got extremely unlucky with grace kim's chip in uh at the evion uh it was a massive leap for already one of the best players in the world to like very clearly the best player in the world coming off nelly's 2024 like that did not really seemed like this was going to be possible and just a far and away best women's player in the

world and i think the major comes next year i think it's just i will say like you know caught some flack on the socials for for questioning her major record and it's like all right she's like in year six of her professional career like it's you're the best player in the world like that's that's where the you know the expectations get higher right and not even really playing that well in the majors much less winning them and i get it she's only 22 she'll be 23 by next go around like that's not old but that's not that's not that's not the same as the men's side like it's not it's not equivalent um and the windows are tighter on the women's side we've seen that historically so uh yeah it's it's time and you get five per year and then the middle i get four yeah it escalates

thanks for bogeys i'll i'll i was thinking men's side when i when i say the american quote studs But you can lump the women in there, TC, as well with the stat you threw out there. But I think if you go back to like, let's say 20, 21, the people that we would have considered to be like the stud players on the American side, we have like JT who he won this year, but like regressed as the year went on and has now hurt. Maybe who knows how tied those two things are, but like pretty big question mark on his at least short term future here. And I would say that's not a good trend for him in 2025. Speath was fine coming back from the injury, but not a stud, like not like the spith that we were hoping him to be. He wasn't nearly as bad as people made him out to be,

but like far from being a reliable week-in, week-out competitor. Zander had a pretty meh year coming off like his injury. Cantlay has regressed to just kind of being not irrelevant, but not part of the story on the golf course. Morikawa, we covered that one. Like that was. Cantley's more back office. he's working too much man uh big step back max of course i mean he wasn't really

2021 level stud as we were thinking like coming off 2023 writer cup but we have pictured this happening for max no it's just man pretty big vacancy left uh that that was kind of tying into what i mentioned earlier about the likes of ben griffin and j j spahn stepping up uh to take these spots um it's been just a not good trend um and yeah scottie's hoovering up a lot of these but a lot of these guys are, they're not being competitive with him at all. Which I think it's really interesting. Maybe this is people aren't as interested by this,

but when you have someone like Rolap come in and it's like, we're going to change media stuff. We're going to do more follow doc type stuff. We're going to really blow out these superstars. It's like, man, all the superstars have kind of laid an egg for you, man. There's not that many of them that are like,

they're getting less interesting by the day here. It's kind of Scotty and Rory and Tommy, honestly. You know, and it's other. in that, that next tier down is becoming less and less interesting, Sally, because of the reasons you're you're mentioning.

Yeah. T.C. I'm going to say Wyndham Clark, just generally. I think, you know, U.S. Open gave us some serious fireworks down the stretch there. What, like, just thinking back on,

I need to go rewatch that final round just generally because that was a highlight, but I think a low light was just Wyndham Clark's behavior at Oakmont. And even really predating that, his behavior at Quail Hollow when he threw a club at all of his here. Yeah. And, you know, and then T-Mobile did an activation with the back end. And then he didn't really apologize to Ockmont.

Could be banned for the last year of his U.S. Open eligibility there. And next time it's held at Oakmont. So we'll keep tabs on that. Ockmont seems like they're maybe getting a little mileage out of that. Well, I feel like I've heard that more than I maybe should have. But yeah, there's a good one. Friends with TC, you keep hearing that. I will say, DC, this brings me no pleasure.

But I think it was maybe a tough year for your boys on the Champions Tour. Oh, they're self-sustaining. I don't know, man. It just seems like they're in a precarious spot. I don't think they're, I don't know how much they're, I don't know how much their stock, you know. that kind of feels like their hope is is tiger the guy who like I don't know if he's going to swing a club again what that's going to look like and I was trying to get more explosive in the gym but it's just as a is a weird one where I think like you bring in the guy who's like we're going to be all about scarcity profitability all of these things that I feel like some of the champions tour guys are probably like oh shit yeah they cut the pension cut the pension they got rid of Q school I think they're just at a very like what is the point of this thing is it supposed to be a meritocracy or is it supposed to be just like trot the boys out there for a you know a couple names you know for an entertainment product and how do you keep that from feeling like a bad

like trading card show at the mall you know it's just a i just think it's a it's an interesting one you can maybe make the case that you know maybe there's an elevated refined polished kind of champions tour that that fills in the gaps on some of these like pj tour you know as the the scarcity hits the PGA tour maybe you can like lean down the the champions tour and get some names out there for some fun stuff in smaller markets but uh it just seems like a weird one for them what if they had the champions tour guys you pluck 25 of those guys and they play their own flight like at the tour of it yeah that's interesting maybe i think about that i mean yeah well you might as well have the corn fairy guys out there too right just just do like three tournaments at once

that's that's that's real uh you know streamlining just just get that dialed i don't know yeah i mean it's you know no offense to the stephen alkers and matt gogels of the world but it's just it's tough when you see some of these leaderboards sometimes it is and that was like started with like jack and arnie travino it's yeah it wasn't one designed for stephen alker well it is tough though what it's like that's what i was reading more about the cue school stuff today and like going back and reading some of that stuff and it's like it's kind of hard to keep these guys out, man. Like, if these, you know, some of these, the Scott Perel's and that, that type of guy is like,

yeah, I'm going to turn it on in my, in my twilight years and just start beating the brains out of these guys. It's like, it is really like, they're literally just going to be like, no, we're going to keep those guys out. Sorry. Yeah, Q school for the champions tour. It's like supposed to be, all right, the guys that everybody grew up watching. Your career was Q school.

Yeah. Like, do we need Q school for this? Like, not everything has to be a meritocracy. We don't have to take this that. Seriously. I agree with you. What a class is dropped by there, Deitch. I'm sorry. I've just had to call some balls and strikes there, T.C. Final birdies round, I think here.

I will, this is probably, you could probably be a birdie every year here. But I'll just give it to the Kaiser's largely. I think they continue to just stunt, push all the right buttons. Sedge Valley is up and running at San Valley and is awesome. Commons coming online soon with their rodeo dunes looks awesome. Can't wait to go see that. But also working on, like, smaller things, right? Maybe some of this is just being here in Wisconsin, but the chute park stuff down near Racine.

I've mentioned a couple times trying to spruce up an awesome little nine hole piece of property there. Glenn Golf Park in Madison looks great. So I don't know, just seemingly, you know, continue to push it on on both ends of the spectrum, you know, the band in sand valleys of the world and developing more of those types of properties. But also, you know, I think it would be very easy to sit in Chicago. or wherever and kind of count watch the money roll in from being booked eight years in advance at band and dunes but instead they they kind of tend to be picking some other projects and and trying to uh raise the floor on some more community focused you know spots and and projects

as well so i think i think golf's uh you know without being trite golf's lucky to have a a family like that i think that's that's willing to uh to kind of do it at both sides amen stewards of the game. Speaking of another, you know, not a native Illinoisan, but I'll who I really, yeah, who I've just come to greatly respect. He is low ball speed, be accomplished one of the most low. Precious things.

Quiet trade this year. Brian Campbell, winning twice. So sick. The Mexico Open presented, you know, at the Dantle World. And then, of course, the John Deere Classic, which what a fantastic event for for you know someone with illinois ties to win and and to do it in the fashion that he did it to to beat uh aldrich pocketer hitting one off of a tree on the 18th hole the 72nd hole of the tournament it was it was thrilling to watch it and just and then to win again in the

same season validate i mean it's like martin trainer times 10 level stuff uh i'm gonna give a shout the team rose he almost fucking won the masters man he lost in a playoff to rory like holy shit what an incredible sunday that was won the fedex st jude in the playoffs went to one and one i think in the rider cup stepped up i think he's if i remember this right didn't he play an extra match because when hovlin got hurt he stepped up and played a bonus one i forget if that was him or not he anyways at age 45 sticking around not going to live when that's what all his buddies did uh and accomplishing what he accomplished this past year it was just like like massive, massive, massive year for him and gained a lot of fans, I think, in the, in the

process. I think Team Rose is my 2025 TC man of the year. That has legs. There has got to be a man of the year every year. I've got to think it's going to be one of those things. There's like six or seven men of the year, probably I would have to imagine. No, did I give it out already? No, boy, he's getting one too.

No, no, he's getting one. You can do one per year, I will support this for the rest of your career. Team Rose, we'll have a ceremony, maybe I ought to cover Tommy. Over Tommy. There we go already. Yeah, he's just, no, he's just, no. Great man of the year. Team Rose, what, what he accomplished just in turning my, my own opinion of him around over the last 24 months?

It's absolutely remarkable. hat. My hat is off to you, my friend. You could have left for Liv a long time ago. You're probably going to play your way onto the team at a dare manner. And I just immense respect for you. On the other side, speaking of opinions changing. Golf Twitter. Yeah. I mean, look, we were all bullish on this thing, but Sable offshore, you know, it's just taking a, it's taking a turn for the worst. It was up 48% overnight the other night. Yeah, it's down 66% on the year, T.C. unfortunately.

We're, of course, referring to Phil Mickelson. Just like going from being one of the legends of the game. Like, ignore the fact that he blew up professional golf for his own personal gain. Like, you don't even seem to care about that anymore. Like, all he cares about is just, like, being an online troll and saying, like, some truly disgusting things online, like, philating North Korea. And I'm not going to go tweet by tweet, but it's just like, we got time if you want. Watching this dude turn into like Bob Estes on.

steroids has been like a just a really a really bad development. God, I forgot about Pobbit. All messes should have taken steroids, you know, a late career surge. Not a good 2025 for the general manager of the high flyers. He also joined YouTube golf. It's not really tied to, you know, the success of that team. But I don't know. Maybe Taddy's 14-inch cock might turn things around for Phil here in the back half, but or into 2026, but we'll see.

Oh, man, that's a good one. Sally, Sable Offshore is up 61% in the last month. Oof. Okay. I will apologize. That was after you publicly declared that you wanted to get in on it and you didn't. Yeah, but I'm long. You know, he did long, long Sable offshore.

I don't know, I didn't know where you're going there. That, you know, I don't think Phil's cost basis is, you know, going to reflect that rate, that, that growth there, though. Yeah. My last bogey is Jay Monaghan and Greg Norman. Hit the bricks, guys. A co-lab. Like, you guys, you know, like, go hang out in Colorado together. Get out of my face.

like just just exit stage left i mean mona and making 200 plus million dollars over the last seven eight nine 10 years of just over what he's overseen just a an incredible destruction of value and just equity i would say um so good riddance my man so that's a little bit like uh when you're talking about you know can't lay and zander and max and man who could like really seen this coming. This is one of those if we would have went back three, four years, be like, hey, what if I told you Jay Bonahan and Greg Norman? They're not involved anymore. I'd be like, yeah,

I think that that tracks. Okay. Yeah, actually, I could see how that makes sense, actually. Norman lasted longer than I thought he would. For sure. What an outrageous exit interview he did this. So good. A month or two ago. Last one for me, I was going to give it to Happy Gilmore

too, but I started, I started thinking back on some of the seeds. I was like, ah, there's a couple, there's a couple moments in there that actually did make me laugh. And Neil, Neil, be in the TSA age. It was, I was like, ah, that's, that's pretty good too. I don't know. I'm not willing. I'm not willing. You're both. Never watch it again.

Not me, I will never watch again either, but it does exist and, you know, there's that. Instead, I'll give it to my, my goal to make 100 birdies this year. I made 57, uh, which is, which is light, guys. And especially after hearing T.C. say, would you

make like 239 or something like that? Yeah, I think it's like up to two, up over like 250 now. Yeah, I just didn't. I played my 100th round of the year on Friday. You played the amount of rounds that I was trying to make birdies. And I, yeah, just, just it wasn't even close. So just a bad goal didn't get there. You know, I was pushing, but I'll have to, I'll have to wear that one.

I might make a birdie. I might make up a goal to make more birdies than TC next year. It's great. It be tough. It is fun. You know, you play a bad round or something. It does keep you hanging in there for. for the whole rest of the

I get a lot of text this time of year from people be like hey man I just hit 100 I'm like fuck off I don't care I'm like no no because of the Fod I'm like I don't care I made 57 I play some alt shot stuff at the club which you know obviously that stuff doesn't count and then actually Friday we played the kind of the Santa scramble

it's like a two man scramble on the lagoon course which is like the you know 507 you know it's like Greenskeepers revenge set up, but from a mix of teas. So you'll be playing one of the par threes from like 68 yards between an impossible pin or, you know, various stuff. But it was, it was so much fun. The lagoon course is like it's, man, it's not long, but it'll, it'll twist you up and knots. A couple other odds it ends before we get to our interview here shortly.

Did you guys watch the golf channel games, the Optum Golf Channel games, whatever they were called? I caught a little bit of it. And then actually when I was up playing golf on Friday at the club, it was like, there was like six guys just talking about it. Like some of the old could I play with. Kind of slapped. Yeah. They were raving.

They were like, they were having fun out there, man. And they were just, so I went back and watched more of it. And I loved the relay. I liked the 14 club challenge. Clanton hitting what, 192, 193 ball speed. It was, it was fun. It kept moving. I liked it.

It was a birdie, if I may say, in terms of like, all right, skins game didn't really hit the match i probably would never watch another one of those again like i know they're trying stuff this was a dub in the trying stuff category of like yeah i want to see scottie like try to blade a lob wedge like 70 170 yards like that's i want to see them hit a lefty shot i want to see you know i think there's still a next level of skills game challenges i think there's something you could do around the players kind of turning that into an all-star game you know if there's a true like you know take the 10 best drivers on tour and do that grid game and see who wins like the driving title

who could hit the biggest fly I don't know there's so much fun shit you could do and that was a good like a good test case for like those guys being bought in and having fun and it was really long but just that was that was good TV I hope it that was the other thing I didn't watch it live so I was able to skip around

and that sort of thing also remember when Bubba refused to do the long drive contest at the PGA that was sick that was sick I just want to note Coo Kim and Ryan And Gerard made the trip to Mauritius, and they got master's invites out of it. They earned the world ranking points they needed to stay or get inside the top 50, stay inside the top 50.

That's, of course, via VC 606 on Twitter. But man, like hoovering up points at the end of the year, it's kind of like the people book in flights to maintain their status near the end of the year. They went there and got it done. So congrats to them for that. And Rory won the sports personality of the year, which is apparently a big deal over in the UK, but golf has not been treated kindly. uh in that category and uh that was a nod to to his his career achievement for this past year so

that sol you're going to have so many brits in your in your dms just being like you know explaining the history of that why it's a big deal yep hit me up at trod carter in on you i will i'll take all of the the history there take me on twitter uh my favorite comments that that i saw on the club championship video was just uh tc and ryan gerard hottest players in the world right now which i did really enjoy. I mean, I think Ryan Gerard, like, you don't really have to go take those mileage runs anymore. You can just buy them these days, which I feel like is a little bit cheap. Yeah. Yeah, the whole like credit card spend stuff and all of that. But props to Siwu and Ryan Gerard for, I think Mauritius seems like a really nice place too. So you can turn it into a holiday

vacation. Amen. Before we get to our interview here to close things out, T.C., why don't you tell us about our friends at East Sands and what we're up to there, what they're up to, and how listeners can benefit from that. Yeah, speaking of vacations, Nick and Haley,

a couple from Vancouver, reached out probably a year ago now, and we actually kind of dropped this partnership on the pod, what, last week or a couple weeks ago? A couple weeks ago. And yeah, they've been like, man, we had like crazy good,

you know, feedback from that. and traction from that and it really resonated and so hey i'm super glad because i think these these guys definitely um resonate with us and just kind of run parallel to our the way that we think about trips and travel and why we travel and where we like to go and stuff that we like to see and so nick and haley moved to st andrews a few years ago spent six months there nick caddied and it was just you know kind of a transformative experience they started to travel company right after that and uh east sands golf was born and so they've played all over the place in the british isles and in ireland uh they've got some experience in the netherlands mainland

europe as well and um and then even in australia too so um basically i would say you know official travel partner of nLU official tour operator of nLU yeah they can they can certainly help you with 2026 trips uh but it's probably you know definitely 2027 as well. I think 2027, get ahead. Everything's busier than ever, especially over in the UK and Scotland. So, you know, get on those T-sheets as soon as they open up here in, you know, February, March, April for 27. And, yeah, their philosophy definitely aligns with ours. So a couple of really good perks. You can, you can save 500 bucks per person off any trip if you're a nest member. And that's repeat uses allowed. So that's anybody on your trip. So if you're booking a trip for eight people, you know,

you're a nest member that's that's 500 bucks per person there and then same value by the way like it's an absurd absurd benefit and then uh the first 20 people to book through our partnership the nl u east sands golf partnership can save 10 so that and that can be combined can be stats and codes yeah yeah so east sandsgolf dot co slash nl u again that's eastsansgolf dot CO slash NLU and yeah give Nick and Haley a call and set up a meeting with them and they'll they'll figure out what's important to you and then craft an itinerary for you. So T.C., introduce what we have coming up here next to wrap up to this week's episode and wrap up our year on the No Langa podcast. Yeah, kind of surreal to say that. Great talk with Mike McCarton, who's a

native Washingtonian, I would say, and one of the co-founders of the National Link trust along with Will Smith. Mike is a golf course architect by trade. He and he and Will, you know, worked for Doke for a while. They started, they got to know each other at University of Georgia, getting their masters in, you know, design and landscape architecture. Will's, of course, you know, he was involved with a founding of several, you know, kind of top 100 golf courses as well as runs outpost club.

So you're very highly competent individuals who, this is, kind of their life's work is creating like world class golf experiences and I think for them to dedicate their professional abilities like the you know they've been operating uh the three courses for national links trust Langston um rock creek and east potomac for the last five years for the national park service and uh for them to kind of pour themselves into this has been a cool journey to watch and it's been pretty dispiriting over the last, you know, three to six months to see just some of their work being called into question or just generally, you know, kind of doubt and challenges being thrown their way from various policymakers in D.C. So a lot out there

in the news here recently via Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg and New York Times just regarding, you know, the administration's plans for potentially, you know, they've, they've said NLT is in violation of their lease agreement for the three golf courses, haven't told them why, haven't told them, you know, really like how to resolve that or anything. So we kind of set the stage of, I think this is an important story, not just for D.C., but I think just generally speaking for golf across the country, these guys have done it the right way as far as, you know, fighting through red tape and, you know, getting permitting and planning

and fundraising dialed in and all of that and making it affordable and accessible and at the same time, efforting to make these courses world class too. And to see that kind of, you know, just to see doubt cast upon that is tough because I think that this could be an awesome example, an awesome template for the rest of the country at large. So, yeah, without any further delay, we'll get to that interview here shortly.

We want to give a quick thanks to everyone for tuning in over the course of the year. We're going to shut it down a little bit on the podcast front here into the new year, as we usually do. We got a lot of great stuff planned for 2026 as well. I only ask this once a year. If you want to go on to your favorite listening app, throw some five stars in there. Maybe leave a nice comment for TC in there or something. Try to get one of those man of the year awards in there. Yeah, if you try to get one of those, we always do appreciate.

And always tell a friend. If you, if you enjoyed listening to the show and think somebody else might listen to it, I might enjoy it as well. Feel free to forward that on. But without any further delay, here's T.C. and I's conversation with Mike McCarton. Thanks for one for tuning in, and we'll see you back here next year. All right, welcoming in Mike McCarton. Mike, why don't we start from scratch?

Tell us about the National Links Trust, your guys project, and we can get into kind of some of the current developments there. Sure, yeah. National Links Trust is a 501-C3 nonprofit that my co-founder, Will Smith and I started in 2019. We did it specifically to respond to an RFP from the National Park Service for a long-term lease for the D.C. golf courses, which are East Potomac, Langston, and Rock Creek. What's the, why you? Why is this something that you were eager to do? And what's, what's special about these particular locations? Well, yeah, I mean, I grew up in Arlington,

Virginia, so just across the river from D.C. And East Potomac was the place where I learned to play golf. When I was a kid, probably eight or nine years old, my dad would take me and my brothers and he'd sit us behind him while he hit range balls at East Potomac and give us a Coke. And we would sit there and watch. And it was a way for him to get my brothers and I out of the house and give my mom some time without us. And eventually I wanted to play. So I picked up one of his clubs, hit balls. Then we moved from the range to the red course, which is a par three course there, from the red course, the white course, which is an executive length course, and eventually to the blue course, which is the full length, 18-hole course there. And, you know, something about that really sparked an interest in golf for me. After that point, I think by the time I was 14, I think I had read every single book on golf architecture that there was. And, you know, I kind of attribute that to the idea that East Potomac was this blank slate of a golf course.

It's really flat. It's on a peninsula in the Potomac River. There's not a lot of golf features left. Like, there's not a lot of contour. There are in a ton of bunkers. The Greensstone have a lot going on. What it does have is an incredible and welcoming atmosphere, and it's just a really great place to, you know, to learn the game. But as I went and saw other courses and you kind of add those, the topography or bunkers

or whatever, I think that was the spark that said, oh, like, I really want to know more about golf courses and design. And then eventually that led to me, you know, working for Tom Doak for 10 years building golf courses. I went to the University of Georgia where I met Will Smith, my co-founder in the landscape architecture program there. And so it's really been the, you know, I think it's kind of like my origin story in golf, traces back to my, to my, time at East Potomac with my dad. So take us to the National Links Trust and you know, you describe what it was technically, but what is it at its core?

What is the mission, the goal? And I think we've shown particular interest in it just because, you know, this is a DC related story, but it is hopefully a model that I think can work in a lot of different places around the country and around the world. So kind of take us to kind of what your mission is and who's involved with it and kind of the status of projects there. Yeah. So our mission is to preserve and protect affordable and accessible golf

and positively impact community. Again, I think just like taking this to the personal, my view of what golf is comes from my time at East Potomac, right? It's like, it is a place where anybody can pick up a club. You get that ability to go from the range through the golf courses there. But it's really like the gateway to golf for so many people. you know it's the place where where people learn it's really close to where people live so it's easily accessible and so you get this like great population center great location and this is the type of place that grows

new golfers and builds a love for golf and I think that that story is repeated all over the country right at places like this so it's it's definitely something that has commonality all over and I think golf is much is a healthier thing if you have places like this, building new golfers, getting people into it, and they're really important to the ecosystem of making sure golf thrives into the future. So as we look at National Links Trust, we want this to be an example of how communities can invest in these types of places to improve the facilities while still keeping them affordable and accessible and welcoming and inviting places to learn the game. And, you know, that kind of takes back to, like, when I was in grad school at University of Georgia, I ended up writing my thesis about affordable and accessible golf.

And I used East Potomac as an example for that because, you know, like I said earlier, I looked at it as this blank slate. And my thought was what I wanted to write about was that there's no reason why affordable golf can't be great golf. But the important thing is if you make it great, it doesn't have to take away the affordability and accessibility. Right? It can still be that. It can still be a place where people get exposed to the game, but that can be a really interesting, intricate course, right? Or, you know, from an architectural perspective, while keeping that community-centric approach that these places have really thrived at over the years. And so as we look at our projects here in DC, you know, we have the ability to make these courses a model for what other public investments can be in municipal golf and show the importance of this, especially being national parks in the nation's capital, they kind of are symbolically important as well. I mean, East Potomac is part of the national mall. So it's like, what better place to have something that represents what golf can be as a resource for the rest of the country?

Mike, how do Rock Creek and Langston fit into the project as well? I know I'm focusing on East Potomac because that's my story, but what's been the best part about this is getting to know those other courses as part of the project. I mean, we've spent the last five years really digging into those communities as well and the golf courses, but also the people that play them. they have each incredible histories and incredible properties and potential. And so, you know, like at a baseline, the same story applies.

But what's really cool about it is, you know, in D.C., these courses all represent kind of a different, you know, population of people. East Potomac is fairly close to Virginia where I grew up, so you get a lot of Virginians going there. Rock Creek is in northwest D.C. and kind of draws from that area. and Langston is on the northeast side of the city and draws from PG County in Maryland. And all of those things kind of draw a lot of similarity, but also differences in terms of the people there. And I mean, I'd love to get into all the historical detail,

but I mean, just to start a little bit, like Langston was founded because of the work of some, like, incredible golfers in the city, in the 1920s at a time when D.C. was segregated. There's two black golf clubs, the Royals and the Wake Robbins, that were playing on a makeshift course on the grounds of the Lincoln Memorial. And that area ended up getting too busy to support all of the different uses, including that golf course.

And it eventually got shut down by the city. And those two clubs fought for a golf course for black golfers in the city for 10 years, and eventually got Langston built. And it was the second, I think, 18-hole golf course built for black golfers in the country. And it has this ridiculous history of, you know, people, you know, pushing for the rights of black residents of the city investing in the course

and eventually becoming kind of the home of black golf in the United States. And those two clubs, the Wake Robbins and Royals are still playing at the courses today. And I'm skipping over just a ton of really, really great stuff there. But that's just one taste of the history at these places and the communities that have been built at them. So take us to kind of what the work you guys have done over the past several years.

Who else is involved in, you know, kind of this mission that you mentioned of architecturally significant? I don't know if that was the word you used there. But interesting golf at an affordable rate. who's involved with what projects and kind of you know it's made a lot of wavelengths around the golf world the news of the people involved right so at rock creek we have gill hans at langston we have bow welling and at east potomac we have tom doke each of those guys are are either donating their time or providing their time at a at a huge discount because they believe in these projects and what they mean and the impacts that they can have we are actually

under construction at Rock Creek right now. We have been working the last five years to go through what the park service calls the compliance process, but it's basically like all the elements of permitting to get ready for that project. And we now have the ability to start and are underway there. That course is going to be, it was originally 18 holes by William Flynn. And so it has its own architectural significance, but three of the holes were lost to time due to the construction of a road that went through the property. So what we're going to do is bring back nine of the original holes, create like a nine hole course like the cradle, and build a driving range there where it doesn't have a range. So it kind of has that same, you know, range to par three

course to big course progression that East Potomac has. At Langston, the courses, part of the courses on an island in the Anacostia River. It's this incredible spot where you would never know you're in the middle of the city. It's really close to the RFK stadium site where they're going to build a new commander's stadium soon. And the opportunity there is to invest in bringing back some of the things that have been lost there over time. We've got a plan to bring to daylight to stream and build wetlands to help the golf course work from a flooding standpoint, but also bring topography into the course that would allow it to be a lot more interesting and functional than it was before. And then at East Potomac with Tom, the original course was built by Walter

Travis in the 19, teens and 20s. And it was reversible, you know, because it didn't have much in the way of, you know, defining topographical features, right? It was, it was flat. And Travis was trying to think about, well, how do you maximize this golf course, given that there's not a lot there to start with? And so he took inspiration from the old course, which doesn't have a ton of up and down, but it has a lot of small scale movement and built a course that could be played in one direction, one day, and the other direction the next day is this incredibly complex design. And it kind of goes to show, right, the original goals for all of these courses was to bring something that was world class to public golfers, right? And that's what we want to do now is bring back those things

that have been lost to time. You know, the park service is excellent at what they do, but managing golf courses is not at the top of their list. So they've wet these places, and it's really through no fault of anyone other than the system kind of generally, that there's just a ton of deferred maintenance out there that needs to be addressed. And so it's a real opportunity for us to bring, bring those courses back and you know to the standard that they were originally and um to maximize the ability of these places to be you know um important to the community important and profitable right it's not like it's a uh yeah it's a i don't know what the what the what the phrase would be there right it's not going to be run at a loss like the goal is you know to make this sustainable and to

make this uh repeatable and to be uh kind of a shining light of of of what you're municipal golf can be. So take us to recent news. I believe that's most of the reason why you're here speaking with us today. Why has this been in the news lately? Can you kind of tell us a little bit about the background of what's currently going on? Yeah. So I'll start from the beginning with this. Earlier this year, we were approached by someone from the administration who pitched us on the ability of the, you know, his ability to get the president potentially interested in the projects, which, you know, his thought was with the president's ability to raise money and cut red tape, we could really accelerate what we're doing. You know, his view was that we had

a great set of projects. Obviously, we were on our way at Rock Creek, but the ability to move East Potomac and Langston forward faster would be a benefit to everyone here in D.C. And so obviously that was, you know, something that we were interested in hearing more about. As the process played out, that person ended up meeting with the president in August about the projects. And really from that point, we've been sort of, I would say, kind of on the sideline a little bit as this has played out inside the administration. Obviously, as you can see with the news that came out this past weekend, the president did have interest in the projects, but it seems like the internal view of what should happen has kind of shifted from the potential for us to work together to instead the president and the administration going in a different direction and maybe doing those projects on their own. and it's little unclear what the current plan is. But the president sat down for an interview with Wall Street Journal last Friday

and kind of laid out a bit about what his vision for the East Potomac project would be. And it's not a lot of detail, but what he said was it was different than ours. And I think what we've been trying to communicate to the administration through the last several months is that, you know, together we can probably do this better than either of us could do it on our own. You know, we bring, obviously, the expertise in the golf course business, but beyond that, you know, we have been spending the last five years

in these communities, getting to know the people who play the courses, and have built a lot of goodwill, you know, with our projects that we've accomplished so far and with, you know, the vision that we have for the future. And, you know, we also understand the kind of the complexities of the projects that, that, you know, are involved at these three courses. And, you know, the president with his experience in golf course development, as well as the ability to cut red tape and raise money, you know, could bring something to the table that in combination with National Links Trust could really be a win for everybody. And, you know, we have been trying to communicate in all the ways that we can that we're open to working together and think that there's a really great future if we could, you know, combine forces. Where does that stand currently?

Like, I saw the news. Yeah. I said you're in default. I'm not sure it's going that well. Yeah. So, yeah, we received a notice of default. 45 days ago, that notice didn't include a lot of detail. It referenced Exhibit D of Our Lease, which is basically a list of the improvements to the courses that we would make and a timeline.

But it didn't include any detail about what exactly in that exhibit were in default of what we could do to cure it, a time frame to cure it, all of which you would normally expect to see in a letter like that. I mean, honestly, the letter was two sentences long. And we've asked repeatedly for that information, haven't gotten anything. And we can't come to any other conclusion than that the intention is to terminate our lease, which is really frustrating, right, because we've been working hand in hand with the Park Service on accomplishing these improvements since the day we took over the lease. Our lease also says that, you know, those timelines are general and subject to change based on the compliance processes, and we've been going through compliance since we started. And now we're just now through a five-year process to get through permitting at Rock Creek, and we're under construction.

So it's really kind of hard to swallow that that is the reason we're being given that we're in default. we've been told that there are some other things that the administration is looking at in terms of, you know, finding us in default. But we've been doing this with the Park Service on a daily basis, monthly reconciliations in a really detailed way for five years. So it doesn't make sense to us that we would be hearing, you know, after five years that now something that major is wrong that we can't fix. And it's not just construction and permitting everything all this time you've been operating the golf courses as well. Oh, yeah. I mean, we've spent close to $10 million on improving the courses to date. And we have big projects that each of the courses lined up, you know, starting with Rock Creek for the next, you know, five to 10 years, right?

So what I see as, you know, something that's happening here potentially is that, you know, We're going to be working Rock Creek. We've always envisioned East Potomac as coming last in the three. It's the best performing economically. Rock Creek loses money. So if we can turn that around and make it a business that is positive, we can help make these projects happen faster. But I think there's a, and rightly so, East Potomac is an amazing place.

And there's a desire, it seems like, to move that up, to accelerate that project, which we would welcome. I mean, it makes perfect sense. If somebody wants, you know, to make that project happen faster and we can come up with a mechanism to do it, we're all for it. And I think that it may be that misalignment of our project schedule with, you know, the administration's idea of what should happen that's causing some of this friction. And obviously, we're open to changing that order or, you know, doing things differently. is, you know, we just have to, you know, understand where we each are coming from and talk about the mechanism to make it happen that way.

And all three courses are tied up in that same lease agreement? Like, it's not a separate lease agreement for each course. Yeah, yeah. So all the courses are under one lease. So it's not like we could just hand over East Potomac under our lease and that would be an easy out here. Unfortunately, they're all part of the same lease. I mean, we would be open to, and we have communicated to the administration that we're open to a lot of different solutions to this. But again, we haven't heard anything in response to any of those proposals.

We're just kind of sitting here. I feel like we're playing a game of telephone, which is going really badly. That's one analogy. Another analogy may be that we're standing on top of a mountain screaming into the voyage and no one's listening. We don't know. And it's frustrating because these are places. that we've spent a lot of time on going through these processes, building community, trying to make them better, raising a ton of money to do it. All we want is to make sure these

places get the improvements that are needed, but remain affordable and accessible. That's it. That's the umbrella under which we want to work. And I think there's a ton of ways forward under that umbrella but we need to have a conversation to talk about you know what that might be what it might look like how we can craft it so that everybody gets what they want i think that's the that's the part that is you know maybe the most frustrating from from where we're sitting is you know we're not the ones that have put all the work in to this that you guys have but it is the the beacon it's like the shining light of what you know the the role that golf can play in a community in a big city right i mean there's always going to be struggles for land and there's, you know, a lot of things working

against golf, you know, in, in urban environments. But what you guys have done is, is fantastic. And I want that to be an example in a lot of places, much, which makes the, you know, the fight for this, I think really, really, really important. Yeah. One thing that's cool about it. And we always thought this was the, you know, the card that we had that other places didn't have. Is there all, these courses are in national parks and not only that they're on the National Register of Historic Places as golf courses

and so they have this protection here that they will remain golf courses into the future that a lot of places don't have which gives us this ability to say hey these are places that are worth investing in because you know they're going to be here doesn't matter what the pressure on land might be like they're part of the fabric of these communities

And so, you know, we've looked at it as, as this landscape to show what other places should be doing with their properties, right? Like, it's important to have accessible golf. Like, these are the places that are so close to where so many people live. We've got these protections in place if we can show how valuable and measure how valuable they are to the communities through our programming, through the number of people exposed to them to access to non-golfer's and what it can do, for non-golfers in the city, all of those things we're really focused on. Then we can show other cities like, hey, they're worth protecting in the same way that they're being protected here at D.C.

Yeah. I think like talking about resources too, like time is a resource, right? And having stuff that's close by that you don't have to track, you know, four or five minutes an hour outside the city to go do. Like that's as valuable as anything else here, you know? Yeah, I mean, I mean, just like golf that you can play in two hours or less. right i mean that's what's cool about this rock creek project with you've got the range you've got a part three course you know nine whole part three course you got a nine whole big course all of which

you can play in two hours or less and all of which is within a 10 minute drive of you know tons and tons of people in the middle of the city it's and that's the truth that all of these courses and you know it goes to show if you're going to get people into golf it needs to be something that you can bite off and not something that you have to make a special effort to do. And then once you hook people, that's when you get people who will join country clubs in the future and, you know, help make that ecosystem healthy. But you don't get that feeder system, you know, working unless you have places like this where people get exposed to the game in the first place.

Yeah. No, I think that you're the example of that alone, right? If you're coming off access to a place like this, there's not going to be, you know, someone like you 30 years from now or whatever that might be that can be a steward of the game in some way i think the three places i grew up playing the most are all gone now they're all houses now right you know and if that just continues in the game you know the bottom the entry point into the game is going to you know it's going to cut off the top eventually it might not be next year it may not be in 10 years but eventually it's going to be trouble so weird uh you know weird

diversion here. Where does the where does the debris from the White House ballroom into this story? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we live this. You know, obviously, it's been reported pretty extensively now, but the dirt under the ballroom, the dirt that's being

excavated there is ending up on the white course at East Potomac. The, you know, the whole process of how that happened. And I'm going based on details that were reported in the Wall Street Journal the other day. But as I understand it, there was a meeting involving the Department of the Interior and the president about what to do with that material. And the first thought was to spread it on the ellipse and create a flatter area for the temporary stadium that would host the UFC event on July 4th. And I think that was being taken really seriously. At that meeting, Secretary Bergam suggested that maybe instead it should go to the golf course

because he knew that any renovation of the golf course would require fill. And I think the president liked that idea. And very, very quickly afterwards, the dirt started coming to East Potomac. What's interesting about that is I'm not sure it does much for a big renovation there because you're going to have to pick it up and move it again. But that seems to be the idea that led to that situation that we're having kind of continue on at East Potomac still today. Looking ahead, I mean, I think, you know, it sounds like you guys are amenable to like a range of outcomes, as long as it's in line with your mission, right? of affordable, accessible, independent of the lease and everything that's going on.

Like what's the timeline right now for Langston, East Potomac, Rock Creek, and, you know, kind of if you were left to your own devices and on the current fundraising path, like how, you know, what does the future look like? Yeah, that's a great question. So like I said, we're under construction. at Rock Creek, and it took five years of the compliance process to get there. We are going to be doing that project for the next two and a half years. So the next year and a half will be the construction of the clubhouse, maintenance facility, and driving range there.

That will reopen in the spring of 2027. That's kind of the first phase of the project. The second phase would be the Gillianz renovation of the golf course, which open. overlaps with the first place, but would open kind of the later in that same year. That project will be going on while we are doing the compliance effort at Langston. So we've been pushing the Langston project forward for the same amount of time as Rock Creek, but it's a lot more complicated than Rock Creek. The golf course sits on a city dump.

That's the place that was given to the Royals and the Wake Robbins to build their course back in the 20s, or the 30s, sorry. And so because of the material underneath, handling that potential contamination is a tricky thing. And so we've been working to test the soils and figure out what exactly we can do, how we need to handle it, in the context of that stream daylighting

and building the wetlands that would go with that project. But we would anticipate finishing the compliance during the Rock Creek project so that we could start at Langston right as soon as the Rock Creek project is finished. Then, you know, we would be doing the same at East Potomac while the Langston project is happening. And East Potomac is very complicated, too, because there's major drainage issues that are happening there, and there's a seawall around the outside, which needs to be fixed, and that's like a $400 million public project that the timeline around is, like, really uncertain.

ideally we'd be doing our project at the same time that the seawall project is happening. So if we're trying to think about what could change a timeline here, if the seawall project happens earlier, you can envision accelerating East Potomac so that it's happening at the same time. Like we can't drain that course unless we know where the drains are going and how to tie into it. And right now, water from the river comes back onto the course. That's the direction that this happens. And so we need to reverse that.

and yeah, bringing in film material would be helpful to just to fix all the drainage problems that happen out there. And all of those things require a really big planning effort to make happen. So as we've always envisioned these projects, we want to make sure there's always access to golf in the city. So we had always seen them as you do one, Rock Creek First, worst performer, turn that around, go to Langston, make that investment there, finish that project, then go to East Potomac. And East Potomac is the one that generates the most money. So the longer we can keep that one going,

the more money we have to accomplish the other projects and then eventually finish the East Potomac project. So that was the rationale. That doesn't mean that's the only way to go about it, right? It's just that's the logical way that we had laid it out. That's the way the Park Service had agreed to us doing the projects. but we're totally open to changing that order, like I said earlier. Well, you know, we've talked some architecture.

We've talked Tom Doe. We talk big names in the course of this. But can you guys, can you give us an example or some examples maybe of what else you guys got going on in terms of how this serves a community and things that you're proud of? Yeah. And it's interesting, right? Like, I come to this in the same way that we've had this conversation. Obviously, I work for Tom Doak. I'm really into golf architecture.

And, you know, knowing the histories of these courses, it really felt like an incredible opportunity from an architectural perspective. But the thing that I've taken away the most from this is just how, you know, these are more than golf courses, their communities, and the ability to do things at these courses that make a difference in the community and getting to know those community members has been like the biggest impact on me personally as part of this. You know, just to give some examples of the types of things, we started a workforce development. program at Langston that were expanding to the other courses, including Rock Creek when we're done with it. This year we had 30 interns, their high school age kids from D.C., paid internships, learning the business of golf, and they get opportunity to get scholarships for college at the end of the program. Getting to know those kids, watching their development has been

really impactful to me. We also have a caddy program at Langston and East Potomac, where caddies are free to golfers, and it's a paid program as well through the Evans Scholar program. And we actually sent our first Evan Scholar to college on a full scholarship last year at Rutgers. And we have four kids up for the scholarship this year. And so seeing that program grow and thrive has been really great. We run free lesson Fridays throughout the warm seasons of the years of spring, summer, fall. where once a month we have the ability for anyone in the community to come out to the golf courses and get free lessons at the driving range access to clubs and balls.

And you don't need to do anything but just show up. And we've had such a great reaction to that. I mean, each time we do it, we have to have a waiting list, you know, 300, 400 plus people sign up and we have to cut it off because of the demand for it. And another thing is just the impact of these courses on the surrounding environment. Like we've been removing a ton of invasive vegetation, you know, from the courses since we started. But just last weekend, we had an event at Langston where we removed 8,000 pounds of trash and scrap metal from Kingman Lake, which is adjacent to the golf course. and that's in combination with a ton of community partners

that wouldn't have been exposed to the golf courses other than through programs like that. So it's that these are big spots, big pieces of land in the middle of a big city, it's more than just golf. And it's cool to be able to show and expose people to the value that the golf courses can bring. If I was to direct people somewhere to follow your guys' story and how things are progressing,

where might people find that information? Yeah, you can follow us on National Links Trust on Instagram or Twitter and or sign up for our mailing list online with National LinksTrust.org is the place to go for that. Obviously, there's a lot of news happening right now. And so we're trying to communicate the value of what we've done so far, but also show, you know, that there's this real opportunity going forward that, you know, is. is something that we can do together with the administration to, you know, accomplish these goals. You guys are growing the game. Seriously, in a real way, not the, not the, not the ones the, the big executives tell us

that they're doing. So what's the reaction been like that you guys have received from recent, you know, developments and kind of the general buzz around the community? Yeah, we've gotten so much support from people who've watched what we've been doing, have been part of what we've been doing for the last five years. that feels really good. In fact, just yesterday, Will and I were having breakfast at Langston and somebody came up to us wearing an NOU hat and just kind of walk through how his story of learning golf at East Potomac and then he's a regular out at Langston now,

kind of mirrors my story of growing up at these places. And hearing stories like that is really meaningful. It makes you feel like what we've been doing has had an impact on the community and is building towards something bigger. And just to say, like, you know, with that NLU hat, right, I really think that there's such a massive overlap of, you know, our community and your community. When we're walking the driving range at Lankston or East Potomac, you know, every third bag has an NLU towel on it.

There's, you know, I think people want to feel an ownership over places that they spend a lot of time at and feel part of the community yet. And one of the things that's powerful about National Links Trust is it really does feel like a community-driven effort to make these places better and bringing people into that, making them feel a part of it, is what helps make these stories really powerful and make these things happen in the end. And so, you know, whether it's through you all, you know, telling the good word about golf and how it impacts people or the work we're doing here in D.C.,

I think this is kind of the future of making golf. You know, as, like you said, it's, you know, growing the game is overused, but that's really what we're doing together. Golf needs stewards like you and will as well. So I would congratulate you guys and want to thank you for your time today. And I know you'll have the full support of our community as you guys take on the challenges ahead as well so really appreciate your time mike thanks for spending a sunday with us thank you guys