No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1115: LPGA Commissioner Craig Kessler, LIV’s OWGR Update & Johnny Keefer

Episode Date: February 4, 2026

We’ve got a three-part medley episode for this midweek pod as DJ and Soly react to today’s announcement from the OWGR concerning LIV, followed by Soly’s chat with new LPGA commissioner Craig Kessler about the issues this weekend in Orlando, and we close the pod with Soly and Neil chatting with Johnny Keefer about his rise up the pro golf ranks and learning the ropes of the PGA Tour. Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro and LIV-OWGR Reaction 19:00 - LPGA Commissioner Craig Kessler 30:00 - Johnny Keefer Interview Join us in our support of the Evans Scholars Foundation: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nolayingup.com/esf⁠ Support our Sponsors: Titleist AT&T Yeti If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Sali here. Got a little medley episode for you.

I'm joined here right now by my guy, DJ Pi. Hello, Dej. Hello, Sali. Thank you for having me on the program. Good to see you, my man. Good to see you as well. We are going to chat a little bit about some of the news of the day, which is, of course, that the Live Golf Tour, the 54 Tour, is indeed receiving OWGR points.

That is the update from today. We're going to break that down a little bit. Next up from that, we are going to have LPGA tour commissioner Craig Kessler is going to be on to break down what happened this past weekend on the LPGA tour. And then on the very back end, Neil and I had a chat with PGA tour rookie Johnny Kiefer. So stick around for that on the back end. Johnny Kiefer, natural low ball hitter. He worked with the team at Titleist to dial in his. ball and club set up for more height and distance off the tee. Do you know what ball he would be in based on

that info? He needs more height and distance off the tee you're saying. I bet he's playing the pro v1x or the left edge. He is playing the pro v1x. High maximizes his distance. That's going to be an important feature for him if he wants to compete on the pGA tour, which we talk about where stopping power is needed at every venue. And just like Johnny, you can get fit. Check out the ball selector tool. Schedule and in person fitting or chat one-on-one with a live virtual. consult at tidalist.com. You owe it to yourself to find out which title is golf ball best fits your game. Or just call me. Hit me up. I can tell you. I would love that. I would see if you like 10 people email Dege and see if you could get them in the right golf ball.

It's a good. I like that. That's a fun game. So we have an update, a statement today from the official world golf rankings. I'm going to give you that statement in pieces. And then we're going to react a little bit to this, Dege. But their statement said after conducting an exhaustive and collaborative process and an effort to reflect the changing landscape of the men's professional game, the OWGR board has made the decision to a world award, world ranking points to LiveGolf events for the 2026 season. Ranking points will be allocated the top 10 finishers and ties in LiveGolf's individual stroke play events, which recognizes there are a number of areas where LiveGolf does not meet the

eligibility standard set out. by the OWGR. Let's pause there. Break all that down for me. What are we talking about? This is where the beginning of my confusion, you know, my confusion starts,

I guess. The last sentence says recognizes there are a number of areas where LiveGolf does not meet the eligibility standards set out by the OWGR. Again, I'm pulling these off of the OWGR website for the criteria. Here's where I believe live in some capacity falls short as they do not embrace non-discriminate

discriminatory practices and does not exclude players based on the grounds of nationality. But there's other reasons in their race religion. But I think nationality is a part of it, as we've seen that with the recent development with one of their teams. They do not conduct an open annual call. People don't know what you're talking about. There was essentially a Korean team that had a Japanese player on it who was not in the relegation zone, but was essentially not renewed. He was in the open zone. Like he could be renewed or not, but like he wasn't Korean.

And so he didn't get renewed onto that team is the comment made in the statement as well, which we'll get to. They do not conduct an open annual qualifying school and or an open pre-qualifying event for each tournament or otherwise have open access. The statement we'll get to as well. They refer to their qualifying path as closed. They do not have a performance-based meritocratic eligibility criteria. You can basically just get an offer like Michael Assaso just got and go straight to the tour. or Graham McDowell, you're straight on to the tour.

They don't have that meritocracy built in. They do not conduct a majority of their tournaments with a cut and such tournaments that meet the tournament eligibility requirements. And they do not have an average field size of at least 75 players. So that's just kind of a sample of what the OWGR is referring to here about their shortcomings. But the takeaway here is that they're getting points and that they're only going to the top 10 finishers of the out of the 57 players. what do you what's what's your reaction to this i'm curious i know you haven't really dug in on this

but i'm curious hearing that news yeah pretty fresh i i think it's it's weird it does feel like uh both sides of the mouth we know that you're not hitting all the qualifications but we're still going to give you points it kind of feels a little bit like all sides win and all sides lose i guess is was my first gut reaction where i'm like if i'm live it's it's great that we're getting points but man if you finish 11th you get zero points I think there is a legitimate, I don't know, on one hand, I want to say a legitimate gripe to say that that's ridiculous. And what happens for a guy that finishes top 15 every week, you know, doesn't get any points unless he finishes in the top 10. On the other hand, I'm like, well, yeah, you also can't ignore the other elephant in the room where you, you're not hitting on all of these different things.

And the criteria one is the big one, I think for me, is the one that always sticks out as kind of the rationale breaker, right? where if you're playing on the corn fairy tour and you finish T-65, you're finishing T-65 against the field of guys who qualified for the Corn Ferry tour. You're kind of playing amongst peers and the whole system sort of ladders up and works. If you're playing on the live golf tour, like you said, it's not just that you get, you know, skip right to the front of the line, but you're also skipping right to the front of line to play against John Rom and Cam Smith

and was about to say a couple of the players that have left, but I've now left. But you know what I'm saying? you're you're automatically kind of jumping that line and like yeah of course we should get points and now i get to play against those guys so and you're also playing against some other line skippers that makes it really hard to judge that's the kind of the point you're making yes exactly so that was that was kind of my take is like man it seems like the OWGR's definitely gritting its teeth in order to do this it definitely seems like live is probably going to grid its teeth in order to accept this because it is probably better than nothing

it was definitely better than nothing but the whole thing just feels a little bit under-cooked. I don't even know the right way to say it's not undercooked. I know it's been thought about a lot. It just feels like a half measure on all sides is kind of how I feel. Yeah, and just specifically in the statement,

they highlight that where their shortcomings or the fact that Livgolf does not meet the criteria and it operates differently from other ranked tours in a number of respects. Those respects include Livgolf's average field size of 57 compared to the minimum of 75, exclusively no cut events. The restrictive pathways to join live golf with two spots filled from the Asian Tour's International Series and three from a closed promotion event, which does not offset the turnover

of players exiting the league, self-selection of players with players being recruited rather than earning their place on the tour in many cases. And in recent days, the addition slash removal of players to and from teams based on their nationality rather than for meritocratic reasons. So like on the math on this. And so as you mentioned, the only the, the top 10 players are getting points. That's what the some of the bots are upset about. That's what some of the players are about.

We'll get to the live statement here a little bit here shortly as well. But if I'm looking at this objectively and I know math went into this, I think they made out pretty well. Yeah. Can you put it into perspective a little bit? Like how how does this step? back up against the, like, is there a comparable event that you can say, you know, finishing seventh here is the same as finishing X here?

No, Dege, that's really funny. You say that and that's what has made this a really big problem here, right? Because I did the best I could with this. I tweeted this earlier, but the Livread field has 57 players. Five of those players per data golf are considered to have a skill of greater than a half shot or more per round. like half shot a more just barely above like average professional player. So they've got five of those out of 57 are like considerably better than average players.

The waste management Phoenix Open Field has 123 players and 47 of those have our half skill or more players on a per round basis. That's 38% of the field on the PJ tour event is half shot or better. And on at live it's 8.8% or around 9%. So considerably different both in respect. to the size of the field and in relation to the size of the field, the percentage of players in that bucket are way, way bigger on the PGA tour. The points are way bigger on the PGA tour. They are.

They're about 3x in total. But like a sixth place finish at Livriod. So if you are not one- Reax the amount of players. But yeah. If you're not, exactly, if you're not, you know, beating any of those five guys that are half-shot or better, let's say you finish six there.

It's worth 4.15 points. You got to finish in 20th at Phoenix to get the same exact number. of points. And you've got to beat all heck of a lot more players that qualified to be there that established their way in there than you do on Liv. So if I'm looking at this, I'm like, that's kind of a lot of points for all of these. I guess the cutoff at 10 is where their live is paying the price on not meaning the criteria. But even then the math is kind of working as good as they possibly could have hoped. I honestly think that. And Data Golf had a couple, had a couple tweets out there today, just kind of breaking down, like, you know, how they, how they kind of

calculate data golf points and how they establish it. And they think this is pretty close to how they have, uh, kind of doled out their own points. They are expecting live fields to be about 20% weaker, uh, than they have been in the past. So kind of also somewhat agreeing with me that they're, they're a little inflated on the points on for what they're accomplishing. So it, that surprised me a little bit, man. It did. And I, I, I, I don't. I, I don't. I guess I just don't fully understand kind of your point of why it just feels a little, little icky, little yucky is that why the OWGR felt like, or the board of the OWGR felt like they needed to bend here because we can all look at the rankings and say John Rom's not the

whatever ranked player in the world. We know that. But this also doesn't address that. Like, I don't think he's going to rapidly rise in the rankings. Yet I also feel he's probably going to get too many points for winning an event when he ultimately does win some events this coming year. If, again, trying to kind of suss out some of this in real time, but it does seem like these live points are going to end up being very top heavy for the best players. And the other thing that goes into that is the move to 72 holes, which is a big laughing point and kind of a joke for a league that was named for the idea of playing 54 holes. But the more you play 72 holes, like this was the whole point behind why they didn't get points to begin with. Like playing 72 is different than playing 54. The cream is going to rise more and more and more.

And so when you have that top 10 cut off and you're playing more holes and you're kind of waiting things in a little bit of a weird way is where I'm like, John Rom and Bryson and Tirol Hatton and then, you know, these guys are probably going to, can you make the case that the system does then, it almost overcorrects in a way that does probably get John Rom a little bit closer. to where he should be in the world. Do you get what I'm saying at all? I do. I don't think like the fatty middle of Liv. I don't think their world ranking is going to rise outrageously fast.

But I think John Rom's is going to go up because he's going to finish top 10 every week. I think Waco Neiman's going to go up because he's going to finish every, you know, top 10 every week. And so it's a little bit of like what you're saying. You're trying to balance out this weird system and get John Rom closer to where he, quote, unquote, should be. But you're also trying not to reward the, Louis Ous-Hazens and Lee Westwoods and Ian Poulters and those types of people that, you know, realistically should not be moving up the world rankings these days. And so I think it kind of leaves us in this weird middle space,

which that's kind of my first blush on what will happen is those guys will just rock it back up and it'll look a little more normal. I don't know if it's enough points for them to rock it. They're going to have to play great. You wouldn't go in three events. You're going to get a lot of points and you're going to rise in the world golf rankings. I guess my issue with it is it is easier to win a live event mathematically. This is not my opinion. It's easier to win a live event than like finish third or fourth on a big PJ

tour event. And you're going to get more points for winning that live event. And I just don't quite understand given the limitations of all of that, why that door has been opened. Right. I just don't. I agree. I really don't. Nostferatu, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the WGR God on Twitter. He tweeted before Liv, any of these shortcomings listed there would have been enough reason to reject an application. The top 10 cutoff is right, but has no real teeth considering all those shortcomings. 23 points to the winner is still three to five points too high for me. This is a very good day for live, end quote. Phil was right. If he who is way deeper on the points than I am, says this was a very good day for live, I'm inclined to agree for that as well. Well, and I think it's

an interesting one too with you know the I'm just trying to think of like second order sort of effects here and like if you're Michael Assasso good day for you man you go out and win or top two top three like a couple of these first events like I don't know what the math says but

it's a chance for a very young promising player to now play against a shallow a much shallower field and you know maybe get into like legitimately get into majors that way you know so it's It's, I think it's a lot of really good play. It would.

But it would take a lot less really good play than it would on the corn fairy tour. Correct. 100%. Like I don't know if that's, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my first blush is like, man, it does seem like a little bit of a side door for those types of people who are coming out of college and like can sort of take a little bit of a shortcut if you play really, really great golf. What's interesting is, you know, it's not like. you know, this is LiveGolf's fifth season that's starting up right now.

It's not like when LiveGolf players have like played in major championships, they've dominated so clearly. And it's like, oh, gosh, we got to open up these pathways. Like the top players get in the majors and they get to play them. And Live golfers have one, exactly one major out of like the 14 that have been played since they started. That guy left for the PGA tour also currently. Now, ROM 1-1 in this time period and then left for Live as well.

But it's not like I just, I don't quite get better. ending over backwards for this. So surely Liv is is stoked about this and I'm sure is, you know, ready to, ready to, you know, with their season starting this year, just super excited about it. So they released a statement today. Skipping past the first paragraph just to get to, we acknowledge this long overdue moment of recognition, which affirms the fundamental principle that performance on the caution matter, regardless of where the competition takes place. I would just throw that entire, entire part out. Like, I don't think it was where you were playing

that was, that was causing. Anyways, however, this outcome, is unprecedented. Under these rules, a player finishing 11th and a live golf event is treated the same as a player finishing 57. Limiting points to only the top 10 finishers, disproportionately harms players who consistently perform at a high level, but finish just outside that threshold, as well as emerging talent working to establish themselves on the world stage. Precisely the players, a fair and meritocratic, I can't say that word, ranking system is designed to recognize. No other competitive tour or league in OWGR history has been subjected to such a restriction. We expect this is merely a first.

first step toward a structure that fully and fairly serves the players, the fans in the future of the sport. Yeah, I do wonder why. Why did they? Yeah, that's super. I don't know. I'm sure that was probably just brought to the OJBJR's attention today that no one has ever gotten this attention before. I can't quite figure out why that might be. It's a little tough to to pop that that balloon with just like, oh, well, the other option was you get zero points. As you're kind of saying that there is no other league that has gotten this type of treatment. So, Yeah, it's hard to feel too much sympathy there. So worth noting the Live Golf Riyadh is getting more projected first place points than the Cotter Masters this week as well.

Despite the field rating being higher at the Cotter Masters, just the way the projected points are distributed out. You get 23 points this week if you win Livriad. You get just under 21 points if you win the Cotter Masters. and if you win the waste management, Phoenix Open, you get 59.2 points. So essentially getting third in Phoenix is equal to winning Livriad. And that is where I'm like flashing lights. That is a W for LiveGolf. Like you, your winner is going to get as much as all but two players on the PGA tour this week.

It is without question, despite what anybody says online, a weaker and easier, weaker field and easier thing to do. Like, that's just a factual thing. So, yeah, a little surprise today that it went. this far. The top 10 cutoff thing doesn't really mean a whole heck of a lot to me anyways. I feel like I would almost prefer it if they smoothed it out more and not as many points at the top. I'm sure they had reason and thinking, thinking behind that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of the, kind of the, what I was saying earlier about wanting to have more bang for your buck going to your top players probably is an overall better thing for your league.

100%. 100%. So anything else on this before we. transition into the rest of our show. No, I'm excited to listen to the rest of the show. You got like a talk radio show going today. A block, shuffling a me. B block, C block. I love it.

Busy, busy day. Reminder, we are one week away from one of our favorite weeks of the year. That's the AT&T, Pebble Beach Proam. The third year in a row, we are going to be back at Pebble on the range live from 11 a.m. Eastern to 2 p.m. Eastern. That's 8 to 11 on the West Coast. We've got a bunch of best guests coming by on that Wednesday. A lot of fun stuff playing.

And then we're going to watch along that Thursday during coverage with some fun stuff in there as well. So for 150 years, connecting people has been AT&T's calling. Thank you to every employee past and present for connecting us to who and what we love. Thank you to AT&T and be sure to tune in next week. Here is our chat with LPGA Tour Commissioner Craig Kessler. All right, Craig, welcome to the job. How's your week going here so far? You know, it's been a week.

But appreciate you having me on and I'm looking forward to the conversation. So we can start this one of two ways. We can kind of, you know, this dealer's choice here, I'll let you decide the path here. We can lay out kind of what the plan was, you know, Saturday going to Sunday or even prior to that, what the thinking was that led to decisions that went into this past weekend. Or we could jump right in and just start with kind of what went wrong in your eyes from here. Which, what's the best path to talking to breaking down what happened? Look, we talk a crazy amount about trust and transparency. So why don't we just dive right in and you should start with whatever question you will.

So take me through kind of, you know, obviously you're looking at weather like you do every single week on the LPGA tour, on any tour. When how does a contingency plan start earlier in the week to say like if this happens blank, if this happens blank? Can you at least put me into that scenario before we get into the details? Yeah, totally. And you're right. We saw the forecast a week out and we were talking actively as a team. It looks like winter and Orlando is going to mean something different. this year than it has in 25 years.

So we started talking then about what could go wrong and planning for it. So what sat taking the Saturday? Where did you guys leave things as of Saturday? For people that haven't followed the story closely, don't know all the details, kind of what were the variables at that moment and kind of where you guys sat when you went to bed Saturday night? So we talked as a team throughout Saturday into Saturday evening.

The game plan was to try and get 72 holes in. by the end of the day on Sunday. Plan was to let celebrities go off the back nine at 10 a.m. Have our LPGA athletes go off the front nine at 10 a.m. And we were hopeful the weather would cooperate and we'd be able to finish 18 by darkness. Were you there on site? Earlier in the week I was.

I was not there that Sunday. Did that make the process any more difficult, I guess, for you as you're deciding what to do there, not being on site? You know, like in some respects, of course. When you can be on the ground, you can feel the environment, you can feel the mood. Of course, that's helpful. It's not practical for me to be on the ground every Sunday at 34 tournaments a year. And the good news is we have a really great team that I have deep trust in.

So Sunday morning rolls around, delays start kicking in. How does the communication work internally? How are you guys, you know, kind of, there's a lot of stakeholders at play here. There's television. There's sponsors. There's players. There's everything. Take us through all.

that's incoming at that moment and what conversations are like. I think this is where the first set of lessons learned kick in to be very vulnerable about it with you. In a perfect world, we've got the right people sitting around a table in real time digesting the same information and talking about what are we going to do based on this information. Things unfolded quickly. We didn't have that scenario. We worked as hard as we could to get information from players, caddies, folks on our rules, team, folks who actually worked on the grounds crew at Lake Nona, talking to our sponsor at HGV, and as those facts and points of you were coming in, have to quickly process them and make a decision, it became clear pretty quickly that perhaps we made the wrong decision to go out

at 10 a.m., just given the hardened ground course conditions, and that's where things, you know, really started to unfold pretty quickly. So what was the, so you make the wrong call to go out at 10, and then you delay things, was originally delayed an hour? And then kind of what was the latest you thought you could get people off and still finish? And then I guess a little bit that goes into the decision of, is it worth playing if you can't finish Sunday and roll into Monday? And how that works with the bylaws and whatnot. Yeah, let's separate a couple of things because you ask an important question.

There's a lot of complexity in here. Every 30 minutes, we were providing an update to our players and anybody who was involved in bringing the tournament to life. as I started getting more information, I asked one fundamental question based on the information we were getting. Is there any risk to player safety? And the answer that I got back from some was yes. And in my mind, as a relatively new commissioner seven months in, I take very, very seriously the job of protecting our players. Can you imagine if the player had gone off and had a wrist injury in week one of a very long season?

And that for me was sort of the decision point where I said, look, we can't. We cannot put our players at risk. I realized in hindsight what I and what we missed was, okay, now it's time to get super creative and think about all the other alternative solutions that are possible. You mentioned Monday as one of them. And candidly, this is where we fell short. So if you, you know, I guess if you were to pinpoint something of, ah, darn, I wish we'd have just done this.

Would it have been? You all right, we had these delays. We felt the golf course was unsafe for, I do want to acknowledge. do get the different, I heard some player comments of the celebrities have different things at stake, you know, you set the players, the celebrities off, but they have different, you know, health things at stake here than the LPJ tour players do have. So you had the delays early. Did it, you know, was there a moment where it got maybe clear in any way of like, oh, this is, this is playable here this afternoon? We could have gone off and gone and finished on Monday.

And is that something you, I guess, regret from this past week? There were a few moments where I realized pretty quickly, we've called this. We've called it, I called it, for, I think, very well-intentioned reasons. We just talked about it. Sure. Player health and safety. And by the way, in hindsight, you know, probably could have made the exact same call for the celebrities. And I feel awful about that.

And I've seen what's been written about it. And on a very human level, like, I feel terrible about that decision. Where I wish we were more and I was more creative, was thinking about either how to get the X-ray 18 in the afternoon on Sunday or more realistically, nine in the afternoon on Sunday and nine in the afternoon on Monday. We heard the phrase that it was less than the optimal competitive environment, I think, is one that we, a lot of us latched onto a little bit. You know, balls were releasing when they shouldn't. That to me, I'm like, that's what I like to see.

What I watch people play golf is the ball release a little bit. I guess I'm struggling to marry that. The safety comment, you know, the angle you've taken there, I think makes sense. but the playing conditions being suboptimal from a competitive standpoint. That's part I'm still having a little bit of trouble with, I guess. Is there any coloring in you could do on that? Yeah, it's fair that you're having trouble with it. I think a lot of people are having trouble with it.

And one of the lessons learned here is when we communicate, regardless of whether the decision's popular or not, let's do it in a way where everybody understands exactly what we're talking about. Let's use words and phrases that are crisp, decisive, and super clear. I also, while I listened to feedback from all the stakeholders I mentioned earlier, you know, playing in suboptimal playing conditions is at times part of the drama. It's part of the entertainment. That's not a reason to cancel a golf tournament or to end it early.

And it certainly wasn't a driving reason in any way for doing the same here. The reason I made the call was because, again, I was genuinely concerned about potential injury. And here we are. I think you'd be safe and forth. don't listen. They don't listen to me when I tell them it gets cold down here in Florida. But this was a special one, especially hard one. You, you, what did, what's the, what's the communication been like with players or kind of around, around the tour since then you guys released a statement or sent a statement out

to players that just came to our attention here today. I don't know if that went out Monday or Tuesday. Kind of what you've, what that communication process has been like and, and how you guys plan to handle communications going forward and the lessons learned from this. Yeah. I'd say three. things. Number one, I try and be wildly accessible, very, very transparent with all of our stakeholders, players at the top of that list. Two, I would say what I've learned through that process is that the players take very, very seriously their ability to inspire and the need to frankly go out there and perform. And I respect the hell out of it. These are gritty athletes.

They work their butts off and they want to compete. I have a lot of respect for that. And that's shown up in our conversation since the decision. The final thing that I've heard from quite a few players, both before putting out the statement that you referred to and after, is I think they're grateful to be a part of a tour where they know, even if we make mistakes and we're going to continue to make mistakes, they're grateful that they are a part of a tour that believes in them and is going to do everything they can to protect their health and safety. Do you have an estimate here as to, you know, based on feedback you've received from players if you had to dissect it on which players felt like they were fine to go play, which players felt like maybe it's not currently safest. Percentage-wise within the field, is there any color you could give us? Was it, you know, 50-50 thought maybe they could, 50 or are concerned about injury?

Can you kind of paint that in at all? Yeah, and I'm sure you'll understand this. I mean, I really want to keep the privacy of those conversations. Of course. They need to believe in and trust their commissioner for a long, long time to come. I would tell you this, of all the players I and our team spoke with, and it was at least a third of the field, there is a very overwhelming sense of like, this is the real deal out here. We're taking this seriously. We want to play.

We want to be in front of fans, but we also want to be thoughtful about our own futures here. And again, I'm the one who made the call. I understand the consequences that come along with it. And the call was made out of a very, very genuine desire to protect. them. I understood. Well, hey, I appreciate you. You hopping on with us here on a Tuesday afternoon. I know it's been a hectic week. And I will congratulate you on the hire you made as well with your CMO. And I hope he's having a great first day with you guys as well. So thanks for your time, Craig. Yeah, hashtag chat is going to do amazing things here. We're psyched to have them. And look forward to

coming back on the podcast with you and the team and talking about all of the amazing things that actually have happened over the last six months and where we're going from here. I look forward to that as well. the time. Thank you. A thank you to Craig and a big thank you to our friends at Yeti. It does not matter if you're looking for hard coolers, soft coolers, cups, mugs, or more. Yeti has it. I keep the rambler by my side all day, every day. Refill it consistently throughout the day. I don't even need to pour ice in it. Just pour cold water right in there and the over-engineered hardware will keep that thing cold all day. They got plenty of options to customize their products as well, Yeti, from bottles to mugs, hard coolers, the dog bowls, you name it. Yeti can customize it. You can check out their

complete offerings, of course, at Yeti.com. Now to our chat with Johnny Kiefer. All right, we're going to talk about the meteoric rise you've made in the golf road, but I want to start with, like, what are you exactly feeling right now? And I see a big smile in your face. So I think you're excited about this. Like, you're about to get up in the waste management for the first time, a spectacle, unlike anything else in golf, like, is there any party that's freaking out a little bit with excitement on what's going on here? Is this, is this, is any of this feeling like second nature to you yet? I mean, it's definitely not second nature yet. I showed up first day, kind of registered, did all my stuff, and then I'm looking out. I'm trying to find the range. I'm walking through

the fan zone. I didn't realize there was a skywalk all the way to the practice range and smelling hot dogs and everything, walking by all the stands. I was thinking about buying one. And I was like, it smells good. So I'm still trying to figure everything out. But yeah, there's a little bit of adrenaline going and it'll definitely go on 1617. Any special plans this week for 1617? How you're going to handle that one? Are you anticipating the nerve situation to be a little different on that come Thursday? Yeah, I mean, it's going to be different.

It was kind of fun in the practice time. I played with Scotty and a little bit more gallery on a Monday than I'm used to. So kind of already had a little bit of adrenaline going, playing with Scottie for the first time. and then walking up into the stadium, it was pretty cool. And my caddy just told me, no matter what, we're hitting one club less. We're going to get some adrenaline going. It's not going to airmail into the stand.

So, yeah, I'm super excited, and it'll be a sick week. I don't have anything planned for 16 yet. Not yet. I was thinking about bringing some jerseys or something, but I was like, I'm not sure. So we'll kind of play it by ear and see how I'm feeling. So Johnny, as a rookie, who asked who for the practice round with Scotty? How does that come about?

Did you go say, hey, champ? Can I get in with you? Or did he come up to you? Walk us through that one. So actually, I was on the green on 10. Just kind of going about my day, trying to get in nine holes and just play some and kind of get the feel for it. And we look up and we're like, oh, this will be an interesting. interesting play through. We see Scottie with 150 people just walking behind the ropes. I'm like,

who the heck has this gallery on a Monday? Well, I mean, naturally, Scotty. And yeah, we called him up. And he was like, yeah, can I join? And I was like, yes, you can. So it was good. I mean, I was kind of still learning and hitting some stuff and hitting some pitch shots and putts all around the greens. He obviously knows how to play around here. So kind of watching a little bit and where he's putting from and yeah just you know it was a it was a pretty cool pressure him can you hit him up for for notes and questions during the round like you know hey to this pin what what do you do here are you are you still easing your way into that part of the relationship he can tell you anything you're still not going to beat that guy right he can't be that protective i mean uh you know yeah i i'm not shy to

ask any questions um worst thing that he could say is no so i mean i i gave him that i asked him a few questions about certain pins, what it does, how much it'll bounce. I mean, this, this course is going to change so much throughout the next few days with how hot it's going to be. So yeah, it'll play a little different. So I kind of asked a few different questions on how the greens are going to roll, how they're going to, you know, what you do on this pin, what you do on if the winds this way or that way. And yeah, he gave me some pretty good insight. You know, he's pretty confident. So I don't think he's sharing, I don't think he's, you know, hiding any secrets or anything. So yeah, it was pretty good.

So compared to your strategy playing Corn Ferry Tour, like Monday Qualifiers, does it change a little bit? Like, I've always wondered this, it's like a birdie fest, you know, in Monday qualifiers or Corn Ferry versus PGA tour events. Do you change your strategy at all, or is it still very similar just like the, you know, hit the high percentage shots, be patient. I'm just curious if you're changing that up at all. Not really changing it up too much. Now, I'm still, you know, only three events in, so I'm still trying to figure out, you know, certain courses are a little bit more goodable than others. I wouldn't say Tori was a birdie fest or anything by any means, but I guess Justin Rose kind of showed off and told everyone that screw you, I can make more birdies.

But that's just kind of how it is. You kind of get hot and you can make some birdies out here. It's a little different than corn furry. You can, you know, corn fairy you can kind of get out there. wake up and kind of run into five or six birdies, but out here you kind of got to earn it a little bit more. And you know, you just got to hit some quality shots and be honest with you. I think it doesn't really change my attitude towards every course or each tour.

I'm still trying to hit the fairway. Still trying to hit the green, trying to make a putt. And, you know, sometimes it's going to be five or six birdies. Sometimes it could be eight or nine. We'll kind of see each day it'll be a little different. And each course it'll be a little different. So, yeah, I mean, my caddy kind of, my caddy will have to kind of make me stay a little bit more patient or get a little bit more aggressive than I think. So I kind of lay that on him.

New goal, Neil. I want to say that the sentence, you can wake up and run into five or six birdies at some point in my life. That's a great. I'm a story. I read the, like that. Gabby Herzig had a great article profile on you in the athletic. And it said you, you know, you know, played the forward teaser time, almost mentally to get yourself like comfortable. going five, six, seven under versus two or three under.

Yeah. And I, you know, that's what we got. I love that. I love to hear more about that. Yeah. No, 100%. I mean, when I first grew up and started playing golf, I wanted desperately to go play the backtees.

I just, I wanted to hit drivers. I wanted to hit it far. But I also wanted to try and challenge myself. My golf coach would always tell me, he was like, slow down, slow your role. I want you to at least try and shoot 65 before. you go back to another tee. And that kind of got me in the mode of like, I need to go deep, I need to make more buries. I need to, you know, make more puds and see them go in. And I think that steadily got me more and more comfortable with going low. You know, it's something that I just

enjoy doing every now and then I'll, you know, get on a few tough courses in a row, shoot a bunch of even bars and be like, you know what, I want to feel what it's like to make a few more birdies and go up to the red T's every now and then and just go try and shoot as low as possible. And then I mean, you get a little bit more comfortable and you see the 15 footers instead of, you know, just thinking about pure pace and easy tap in bars, you're like a little bit more aggressive. And sometimes that goes in, you know, kind of changes your mentality a little bit more. Were you playing the forward T's on PGA Tour Americas when you got out there? You know, you finished in the top of 10, what, nine out of 10 starts? You want and then you go to number one.

When did you move to the back teams? They never called me on it. So I just kept on doing it now. Yeah, no, it was really fun. I mean, to be honest with you, a lot of those courses, they are very much, they're a little bit shorter. But they're pretty tight. I mean, there's a few spots or there's a few spots on the America's tour where you just, if you hit the fairway, you had a wedge. And if you didn't, you're probably retaining or drop or something.

I just got super comfortable with how I was hitting it off the tee. And, yeah, just dial it in the wedges. And, yeah, you could kind of, you could kind of shoot it pretty deep down there. And you do that and you go straight and you finish number one on the corned ferry tour last year. You're exempted to the players in the U.S. Open. Like what there's no way. So as I understand it, though, your your assent through college was not necessarily linear. You know, it wasn't like a immediate like here comes Johnny Keefe or ready to take over the professional golf world.

You sneak in to PJ, uh, it's a PJ, uh, PJ, uh, PJ, uh, PJ, America's status. Can you tell us a little bit about that? And like, what is the point where you flip over and you're like, all right, holy crap. Is this supposed to be happening like this? This is going really, really, really well. Yeah, it was definitely crazy. I decided to stay for a fifth year. I actually had status on Americas that I could have taken out of PJTorU,

but I decided I knew I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready to train like a professional, treat my body like professional. I was still super invested in school, which is great. And I definitely tell people that they should. But it was kind of nice to have a fifth year and not really, you know, go to school as often, as many hours. So I tried prepping myself really well for that year.

And, you know, I kind of had a slow fall. And, yeah, I finished really well that year. I think my last, like, four events was just, I mean, I think I was sixth, eighth, second, and 11th or something like that. And snuck into the 25. I was way outside. And I didn't really look at it too much. But honestly,

Even after the cost, after we finished on NCAAs, I was sitting there. I was like, I don't think I'm going to make it. Everyone projected me at, like, right around 25, 26. Who knows? Thought I was going to have to get on a plane to California and go do the America's Q school. And, yeah, snuck into that 25 spot. Went up to Victoria, my first event. I think I finished fifth.

And then, yeah, it's kind of just kept going. It definitely happened quick. For the listeners' sake, you went T5, T2, T2, T2, T2, T2, T2, Wynn, T4, T3, all consecutive. Yeah, from June through June to September. It's a lot of birdie opportunities. Yeah. A bunch of greens, seeing if they'll roll in, if not. You know, I just got a little taste of what Scottie was feeling.

A question, though, because I think that's like, it was awesome to hear you say you weren't ready, or you kind of know as a college student, you're not ready for the. the big leagues, but what changes? You said you weren't ready for like the training of a professional. Like what do you mean by that? Yeah, I mean, to be honest with you, my head was in two places between you know, I was in accounting, so I wouldn't necessarily say that's the hardest major, but it wasn't an easy major. So I was sitting there. I'm not counting. It's a lot of work. It's a lot more work than I thought it was going to be. I don't know why I chose accounting. But, you know, I loved it.

I've always liked numbers, math. And to be honest with you, it was a little crazy with the work. But, yeah, definitely worth it. And it was fun. And, yeah, I, you know. Well, did you just have a sense from, like, seeing whether it was old teammates, turn pro, like that transition being tough? Like, what was it that you kind of knew was coming that you weren't ready for?

You know, I just didn't think that my game was polished enough. I thought there was a lot of good. but then there was also a lot of bad. And to be honest with you, I think professional golf is all about managing how good your bad is. You know, everyone's good is pretty much good enough. You can make a ton of birdies

if you're hitting the fairways and hitting the greens all the time. But if you can figure out how to, you know, salvage a, you know, a round of 70 or 69 instead of a 74 or 75, you know, just shaving off those few extra strokes and seeing if you run into a few good rounds is a lot more important.

important. And I knew I knew I wasn't quite ready. I was shooting too many 74s and 73s and when it should have been 70s. You know, I just, you know, wanted to commit the time and, you know, the off course work with, you know, working out and getting treatment and practice and a little bit more efficient with, you know, time management and everything. And yeah, I just, you know, it was, I think it was one of the best decisions I've ever made. I'm going to see if you if you pick the right career what can you explain the difference between LIFO and FIFO to me right now to be honest with you uh that is just you know I just stick with right where you need to be perfect yeah yeah I'm good with I'm good with golf I don't want to switch my careers any any anytime soon so we're I'm not even going to refresh on FIFO or LIFO that is that blank stare answered the question better than any words words could have as well. But when, I mean, you know, we're kind of just glancing by this successia out in the corn fairy tour last year. When, when did like the possibility of the

masters enter your head? And, you know, when did you kind of become aware that your world ranking was going to be up there around the 50s? And, you know, going into RSM that you're playing last fall, was it on your radar to say, like, if I have a great finish this week, I might be playing at Augusta next year? Yeah, I mean, I definitely knew at RSM and Cabo. That was kind of my appeal of trying to get the exemptions. You know, I didn't have any more events to play after Cornford. And to be honest with you, I was tired of trying to travel too much, so I didn't really have the immediate urge to try and go Monday qualify and do a bunch of PGA tour events and not be able to go home and kind of chill for a little bit. But yeah, it was definitely on my mind.

And going into Cabo, I knew, you know, I needed at least one good week between Cabo and possibly the RSM and thankfully I had both, Cabo. I got a little sick after Thursday's round and ate something down there and slept like an hour or two. Just felt terrible the next day. And I missed the cut there. I fly back. I'm like, get me out of you. I want to go home bad. And thankfully, you know, RSM came up and said, hey, we'll, we'd love to give you an exemption. And yeah, I mean, I had a great week and it was a lot of fun. I think, honestly, it was a lot bigger learning experience, knowing that I was on the cusp of, you know, top 50 by the end of the year, but then also, you know, just getting to play in the final few groups, you know, feeling like I was almost in contention and really trying to win on the PGA tour, which is something that is, you know, really valuable, especially experience-wise coming from the corn furry. It's just a little different. There's a few more people watching and, yeah, it was a lot of fun. I was curious in a situation like that where, you know, I love when tournaments will give an up-and-coming player a sponsor exemption, kind of to a lesser-name player than an experienced player. Do you, I'll say, do you give them a little like, all right, if I make it big, I'll still come back and play this one a couple times.

Like, you know, do you feel like you kind of? You feel indebted? Yeah, a little bit indebted after what they got you. Yeah. No, I mean, 100%. It's something like, it's like, I'll scratch your bag. If you scratch my bag, it's, it's great. And, you know, I've got to thank them.

And, you know, they're committed for giving me the spot. And, yeah, it's something that I'll remember. Also, Sea Island is sick. I've never been there before. It was, it was awesome. You know, a lot of guys live down there, and I can see why. Yeah. It depends on the weather.

But you got some good one for last year. You got some great weather. When it blows in up there, it gets tricky. But what, so talk to me about the master. What's your process heading into your first masters? Are you taking an advanced trip? What does that look like? And are you able to separate out this magnificent experience with the actual golf tournament?

Yeah, no. I mean, it's going to be really cool. I'm definitely doing a scouting trip and kind of March area. And, yeah, I'm going to go try and get a few rounds in before. And, yeah, I think it's going to be the toughest part for me is, going to be, you know, I'll be at the Masters. I'll be playing Augusta. It'll be really sick. And I want to, you know, have fun with it and enjoy the course and enjoy the tournament as much as possible. But I think it's a lot more enjoyable if you play well. So I'm going to try

and treat it just like, you know, any other tournament, try and do my best and have fun and win. I think that's the goal for anybody who's buying there. And, you know, I really want to make it like a really special week. But I think it's even more special if you're, you know, in contention. Yeah. So in that athletic article I referenced earlier, there's a line in there, you had a poor stretch during college, and you said, you mentioned that you just stopped beating yourself up. And I'm curious if you have any, you know, asking for a friend, how does one stop beating themselves up? Like, especially now, like a lot of pressure, and I think about it with the masters of like, you get out there and, you know, let's say you have a tough day. Like, what are you

telling yourself to stay positive and, and keep having fun? Yeah, you know, um, there. Thankfully, I had a great support system around me. I was beating myself up so much and grinding on the range for eight hours a day, you know, in between studying. And it was just miserable. I just didn't enjoy it. I didn't really have fun with it. I didn't enjoy hitting toe balls and cuts and hilly balls and a bunch of different just bad shots.

I was just, you know, nonstop, what are you doing this? You suck. And I just kind of stopped one day and I had a buddy or two. Actually, all my roommates, they were all like, dude, you got to have fun with it. Like, it's, to be honest with you, it's not fun to play with you right now, especially when you play bad. And I was telling him, and that kind of hit. That hurts. Yeah.

Has hurt. You guys are like my best friends and you guys are telling me it's not fun to play. I should probably look at the mirror. Thankfully, they, you know, Baylor is a Christian school too. you know, finding my faith and just really not trying to idolize golf too much. I think that's a really common mistake for a lot of professional golfers and college golfers and just people who identify themselves as golfers in general. You know, they come home and after they shoot 80, they, you know, want to sit on the couch and scream in a pillow for a long time.

And if they come back shooting 65, they're a completely different person. I really, I think for me, the biggest thing for me is getting off the course. And I, I, I didn't want you to know whether I shot 80 or 65. I just wanted to always say it was a great day. I wanted to tell you, you know, I'm a student. I'm a, you know, boyfriend at the time. I'm also a golfer sometimes. It's, you know, I was more just trying to make sure that, you know, I enjoyed life.

I enjoyed everything and had a little perspective. And there's a lot of good things going for me outside of golf. So if I come back and you know exactly what I shot, then I'm probably not doing my job. So what year was that in college? Were you almost took action on that? That was my senior year, actually. That was my fourth year. And that was kind of, for me, it was a big eye opener.

I knew, I mean, I wasn't quite ready. I had the spring, which was great. I had a great spring, you know, I had a great spring, you know, adjusted a lot of things between just attitude and golf game. And, yeah, I just knew I wasn't quite ready. and that's why I took the fifth year. Yeah. So you have obviously like a formula that works incredibly well in PJ Tour America is incredibly well on Corn Ferry Tour.

You've started, the last five tournaments you've played have been PGA Tour events. Has there been anything in that time period that you've said, okay, to succeed at this level, I'm going to need to do blank better, right? Like how I did this here at this level is now different. Have you come away with any of that so far? You still think you're accumulating that. Yeah, I mean, to be honest with you, I think I'm still in the process of that. I'm still trying to figure that out.

I think, you know, I've only been a pro for just over a year and a half now, maybe a year in nine months or something. And I think it's just an ongoing process. I don't know if that will change in the next 10 years. And, you know, I have a better process and I'm having it all figured out. I doubt I have it all figured out. I think week to week, it's just going to change a little bit. To be honest with you, getting out here in this environment out of waste management, it's a little bit.

I'm still trying to find my way around, trying to find my way to the locker rooms and where my locker is and where the practice facilities are. So yeah, I mean, I think I need to improve all aspects of my game just a little bit better. But to be honest with you, it's probably more just the outside stuff, you know, between, yeah, media, between finding my locker, between parking and registration and, yeah, even just finding places to stay through. throughout the week or throughout the entire season. I've heard mental energy. Yeah.

No, I've heard like the second time through, you're like, oh, well, we went to that restaurant. That was good. Like less decisions yet. You have to make a lot of decisions. And honestly, last year for me on the corn fairy, that's kind of how I felt as well.

Early in the season, I felt a little overwhelmed. I didn't know where to go, what to do. And kind of throughout the season, I kind of understood. I picked it up a little bit quicker and started to get into a better routine. So I'm still trying to figure it out and find my,

find my routine and find what's best for me. One thing I noted in that athletic article as well, I don't know if this is still, if this is out of date yet or not, but you live at home with your parents? Is that correct? Are you still? Yeah, I do. 100%. Seriously, keep doing it.

I mean, so my fiance. I did it when I was 31, so you're fine. I think I'm going to make it out by the time of 31. So my fiance is in medical school. and yeah she's she's kind of all over the place she was up in Arkansas now she's just north of Dallas every now and then she's in San Antonio so as soon as she finds a spot for for residency I think I'm going to find a spot but for right now I love going back on my off weeks and not having to worry about you know grocery store shopping and just just the small stuff

yeah whether there's ketchup in the fridge yeah exactly it's what what what foods expired and stuff in the pantry or in the fridge, taking out the trash and all that stuff. I just kind of, I'm just kind of like, oh, okay, I can help out a little bit when I'm here. But for the most part, when I'm back, I just kind of relax and chill. And that's kind of always been something that I enjoy doing, just kind of not doing anything. So, yeah, it just makes it super easy. So when you're on the road, though, what do you do to take your mind off of golf? you movie guy you read like how you spend your free time to be honest with you i'm not a big reader

i love watching shows love watching movies i actually play a few video games um here or there call duty you know i have a lot with the system on on the road i have a laptop uh i have a laptop so it's not quite as heavy and and tough to carry around and yeah that was actually one of my big first it's probably my my only big purchase uh was a laptop and it's a try to try to travel around with and kind of take my mind off of golf because last thing I want to do when I get off the golf course is thinking about more golf. We get enough of it throughout the day. So, yeah, movies, shows, if I want to play video games, I have that, hang around. I love food. I love finding good food to go out and eat and hang out with some friends. So, yeah. All right, you need to get

with Keith Mitchell then. He's your foodie on tour. I did a pod with us last year with D.J. Jay and Toronto, two of our partners, and he's got the spots in every city. All right. Literally. We can sit in that episode, too. Like, it's out of control. Like, he just literally knows every spot to go to. That's great to know.

That's actually, that's just, that's some veteran knowledge. I need to, you know, continue to accumulate. I have it in my notes. I'm going to write down Keith Mitchell as the concierge for every tournament. There you go. He'll do it. He will do it, too. Have you experienced any, like, you know, I've heard playing.

You go from this team, college environment, and pro golf is just a different. Lonely is the word I've heard out there from times. Have you experienced any of that? And does that differentiate between the tours you've played on so far? Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, you're not traveling with, you know, the same group of guys every single week. Now you can. I've got a good group of guys that I, you know, hang around, play practice rounds with. For the most part, yeah, it's, you know, you're most of the time in the hotel room by yourself or you're supposed.

in Airbnb every now and then. But everyone's in and out different times. You're not going to course the same time. You're not all eating the same places all the time. So, yeah, it's a little different. So FaceTime is big for me. You know, connect to call my parents, call my fiancé. You know, it's nice traveling with my catty Joe.

He's been great. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely different. Who's in the practice for? squad right now. Who's your squad on tour? So today, Michael Brennan, Michael Brin has been pretty much a pretty common theme for me. We were on Americas together. I told him, I told him that, you know, I'd miss him, and I'll see him on the PJ tour next year, but he decided to go ahead and skip that and join me this year. So that was a pretty great surprise. So him and his Caddy Jeff are pretty good buddies.

I enjoy playing with them and hanging out with them. We did a nice little Palm Springs in San Diego scouting trip before the season started. They're kind of a main stay in the practice rounds. And then we kind of have some guys go in and out. Today was Adrian Dumont de Chassart. He was a great guy. Awesome. Love hanging out with him.

I'm trying to think of who else is kind of a main guy that I like to play. practice rounds with Matt McNeely. Yeah. You know, I was actually roommates with his, his caddy scout, his brother. Yeah. And he's actually going to officiate my wedding. So I'm pretty good friends with both of them. So we'll play some practice rounds with them.

And yeah, I just enjoy hanging out with them too. So, yeah, there's a few guys out here that I can hang around with. When do you get married? December. Yeah, so it's a long engagement. We got engaged. in April last year, or May last year, PGA Championship. And yeah, just kind of.

A lot of pro golfers get married in December. That is the safest month to get married. I know, I know a few guys, December 19th. They're right around there. It's a pretty common anniversary. Yep. What, as we're sitting here, almost the start of the season, you've had a couple weeks have gone by.

But if you're saying by the end of this season, if blank happens, I will consider 2026 to be. a success. What can you, what can you say here confidently today? I'm not huge on results, but at the same time, I like that. At the same time, if I, if I make East Lake, I think that's a very successful year. Obviously East Lake is very hard to get into. You're probably going to have to win to get into it. Now we saw last year, there were three or four guys that didn't win, which is pretty uncommon, to be honest with you. But at the same time, you know, I think making Eastlake is definitely going to be the goal.

I'd love to say that making the playoffs, but to be honest with you, I'm trying to look a little bit higher and trying to push myself. And I think that's kind of how you stay on top of yourself and make sure that you're always grinding. You have a good week. You've got to keep going. If your eyes are on the cut line, you're going to be around the cut line. If your eyes are on the top of the lead, 100%. Exactly.

100%. So non-Augusta division, what course PGA tour stop, you know, would 15-year-old Johnny be like, man, I can't believe I'm playing here. Like, is there a tournament that you're like, I am fired up to get to X place? I'd have to say TPC Sawgrass. I've just heard such incredible things about the players and players' championship. And, man, yeah, I'm just super excited for that week. I played it once in June. your golf. It didn't end so well. I had an okay week, but I definitely found the water a few too many times. I'm hoping that I'm hoping that I keep all my golf balls dry. And yeah, I think that'll be a really awesome week. I'm playing it tomorrow. Hope I wake up and find five or six birdies out there. Yeah, you can do it. Play the forward T, sally.

It's a lot. It's a sponsor day. The fact that you woke up on the wrong side of the bed. There we go. There we go. You got a skeweree. You got a excuses up the wazze. Oh, you know me better than you realize that. I'm the excuse guy. That's what I'm known for. I think the best golfers are a great excuse.

Have great. Hey, thank you. I appreciate that. I think that's true. It's never the pro golfer's fault. Never. Right? No.

Next time you come back, I'll have maybe 10 or 12 accounting questions for you and whatnot. But best of luck this week. I hope you enjoy it. Congrats on the on the rise. We look forward to rooting for you. We appreciate your time day, Johnny. Yeah, appreciate it.

Cheers.