No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1137: Augusta From The Caddie’s Perspective

Episode Date: April 1, 2026

We’re a little over a week away from the start of the 2026 Masters, so we’ve decided to revisit three of our favorite interviews with men who have worn the famous white overalls and caddied during the tournament. First up Matty Kelly from 2020, then our 2022 conversation with John Wood, and to close it out - Bones from 2018. Time Stamps: 00:00 - Intro + Matty Kelly 1:11:30 - John Wood 1:41:00 - Bones Support our Sponsors: Titleist Pinehurst Loch Lomond Whiskies If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club today. That's better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Sally here. Got a little master's appetizer for you here.

We have two episodes coming out this week. We'll have another one coming out Thursday evening. But this episode is a collection of three old interviews that we've done with people that have caddied in the Masters multiple times. some very recognizable names. The first one we're going to get to Maddie Kelly, longtime caddy for Mark Leishman. He came over to the Kill House.

This is back in 2020. We did this interview. He went through every single hole at Augusta, just told Caddy's stories, got deep in the yard. You book, did numbers, all the nerdiest possible stuff. It was really had a lot of fun going back through these,

combing through these. And I tried my very best to remove anything that was really not relevant to kind of current masters in there. But there are some interesting time capsule related stuff in this interview. And also you can tell, I took some of it out, but you can tell we were maybe a little too obsessed with Bryson going into the 2020 matters and what he was going to do to that place. So that is the first interview that you're going to hear. The next up is going to be John Wood, long time caddy at Augusta, of course, works for NBC now.

We go through just kind of his experience at Augustine National as well. And on the back half, Bones is going to recount being on the bag for Phil Mickelson's three major wins, three Masters wins, excuse me, a bunch of details and amazing, cool stories on the back half of that one. So this is the Augusta National episode from the Caddy's perspective. Greatly appreciate all these guys' time back in the day. And it was fun to reheat this and go back to it and nerd out for a little bit. You're going to, you'll be able to tell quickly, we talk a lot in this episode about the need to be precise at Augusta. You need to hit your number on command, navigate wind, adrenaline, elevation changes,

all of it throughout this golf course, more so than any other golf course, probably in the world. Playing a golf ball that you have complete trust in and is fit for your game eliminates a huge variable. in an already complicated question. You need to know that the shot you hit perfectly is going to fly in a predictable window, spin the right amount, and carry the right amount. You can't be second-guessing your equipment. That's why seven out of 10 golfers on the PGA tour

count on quality, consistency, and T-to-Green performance of Tidlis ProB1 and ProV-B-1X model golf balls. Head to Titleist.com to find out what ball is right for your game. Again, here's our interview with Maddie Kelly, longtime caddy for Mark Leashman. This was back in 2020. Enjoy.

You can almost put anyone who's just watched the event in any part of that golf course, you know exactly where to miss it, where to hit it, what slopes you can use, roughly how far you got. So I feel like people almost wear themselves out at that event early in the week. They're so excited, most excited you're going to be for a practice around all year. And then you get to Thursday, and you're definitely jacked up, but you can be flat. So, yeah, we're going to try and just ease into it a bit more this year. When you show up, do you go straight to, like, I mean, gosh, you have to get like a biometric scan. to go get your caddy fib?

Yeah, so Marks, the agency sends in, well, I think if you've been before, they just use the same one. But you go to, I think it's Gate 4 just on Washington Road for the caddies. And it's like an airport security, yeah. You show your tour credential when you first show up, and that gets you to the caddy. And someone will come meet you and take you get your credential for the week. And then if you've been before, they'll have your overall size

and all that sort of stuff ready to go, and then pick up your yardage book and stuff that week, yeah, from there. How are the overalls? Terrible. You don't like them. We love them. You wear the Nolmite up shirt. Well, yeah, yeah.

It's one of those, they're not comfortable by any means. But it's the event, like for any other event, it wouldn't work. But you don't mind wearing them for the masses. But it might be nice for a November one. It might be a little warmer. Definitely. I think it would be much nicer. So you get a new Yardage book every time.

We're going to get into some of the details of the Yardage book. But do you go and then translate your prior to your notes into the new yardage book. How much of that stuff do you need to have written down to really remember it? I think it was 19. We had to,

they changed the rules on the sides of the yardage books and the green, the pictures of the greens and the books. So everything had to be transferred because those previous years books weren't, I think you can use them for approach shots and stuff like that.

But now that you're not allowed to use them for green reading. So to get rid of any sort of accident that could happen, we just transferred every single note over. Are they calling out changes to the course? on the New Year's yardage book?

Apart from like the fifth T last year that changed, obviously a dramatic difference. They don't, I don't, they're definitely like when you check in, they won't tell you what's changed, what's happened. I'm sure they'll put any significant change in the book,

but it's, they kind of just do it so quietly and. Well, I was going to say that you got to find it. Yeah, for sure. Do caddies like talk to each other? Like,

hey, do you notice this? Yeah, yeah. Do you find yourself, like, imagining something? Like,

was that tree there? Well, that's the thing. Like, you almost convince yourself, stuff's going to happen before it even happened. Like, have they flattened this part of the green?

Because this part doesn't seem to break. It's my like, maybe the greens are just faster. Or, you know, so you just, yeah, it changes you to year and stuff like that. But, yeah, you're, you're definitely like, you almost overanalyze every single inch of the property. Well, it might be the only place that can just drop a tree in somewhere if they want to. Yeah, exactly. It's, no one else really has the budget to just like, oh, yeah, all of a sudden, we're going to do this, this and this.

Exactly. The secret of nature of it is what I find, you know, every player I've talked to about this upcoming Masters just seems to be at a total, I don't know. The people are arguing about whether or not there's going to be a new T on 13. I still don't know. The images are not, unless they did it super secretive in the last week, there is no new T. They said they're not only is it not going to be this year, it's not going to be for April either. Yeah.

Yeah, because you go on Google Earth and they've still, they haven't done it yet. Well, I don't know how updated the Google Earth photos are. But there's been planes flying over with images that show the 13th T and they show the road back there, but there is no new tea back there. But yeah, I don't know if they're going to, some people were throwing out ideas like move the tea further left, maybe it might plant some trees down the left to prevent what Bryson might potentially do. So they do have, they really don't have to move that tea that much.

If they just use the left side of that tea and what they actually have a, there's a limb that has a cable tied to it. And in the practice rounds, one of the time, they'll have that really tight. And the limb kind of sits way more upright. And then you get there in the tournament and they've loosened it down and it sits like this a little bit. Oh my God. So if they just use a little bit.

left side of that T. You really, now you can't take that. I mean, you can, I guess, if you've got, if you're that ballsy to take that on, yeah, you can. But now it becomes almost like a hook, like on 10 if they just use the left side of that T. And I'm, but I'm sure that if they do move it, they'll move it five, 10 yards maybe and be a totally different hole. Tying back lives. What other stuff you got like that? How much do you love the fact that there's no, that there's no green reading books? Well, I was actually thinking of, I don't, do they even, has there ever been one? I don't think they exist. I don't think they exist. I don't think have let anyone on side to do it.

And Bryson's like his putting stats at Augusta are far worse than anyone else. Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't think they should be around anyway, but I love it. I don't think, especially for that place when the putts are so severe, it's almost like, that's what makes the putt so hard is because, yeah, it looks really severe and it's probably a two or three degree slope, who really knows.

But the guys who do the aim point, train themselves to do all that. And that's fair play to them. They can do that. But yeah, no book. I like, I like the idea of no, Green's books. Yeah, because I feel like with somebody like Spieth, who, you know, hasn't hit it great over the last three years, but he can show up at Augusta and kind of feel his way around it. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it feels like every year at Augusta, it's not all

about precision golf swings. It's not precision golf because it's such a feel place with the, with the slopes, the elevation changes and all of the, you know, the different shots that are required there. it's not like just hit stock golf shots everywhere. And that can help someone that maybe is not faking it, but not coming in, swinging as best. Definitely. I think you're exactly right. Yeah.

Now, like, holes like 12. If you're two back and you get that back right pin on Sunday and it's time to try and hit one and then you do, you're swinging it bad. It's going to probably catch up to you. But, I mean, I think everyone would sign up to be two back on Sunday. You know, so you, like you say, and you can use so many slopes around the green.

in it goes. It is definitely precision, but if you're not exactly 100% on, you can kind of get away with that a little bit. How much does the course evolve as the week goes along? I get frustrated about that because everyone loves the sub-air talk. The year Patrick Reid allegedly won, we were in the last group with him on Saturday, and it was first two days, was so perfect. It was firm. It was fast. Mark was playing good. I don't know if we were tied lead, one back, two back, I don't know, but we're in the last group. And then we've got a little bit of rain and the course just totally, it was not marshmallows, but it was so, so different.

And it's not an excuse. It's up to us to adapt. But most years it goes from pretty firm and then you'll get a scoreable either Saturday and then Sunday set up for drama, obviously. So almost the opposite of a US Open where you'll see a score early and then it gets harder and harder and harder. It's get yourself in the tournament and then see what can happen on the weekend kind of deal. Because the subair doesn't get used nearly as much. people think it gets used, right?

Or does it have as much of an impact? Yeah, I don't think. I think it helps if like it get a ton of rain the week before and you want to get it to playable. I don't think it when you get rock hard and then you get a little bit of drizzle and the dew point's not quite right or whatever it is and it just doesn't seem to suck as much of the moisture out. But yeah, I don't think it has a, I mean, yeah, it has an effect if it's really wet

and gets it to somewhat dry. But getting that last little bit out of it, I don't think it does a whole lot. How often do you think back You let's had some success at the Masters and had a really good run in 2013 Which is not very well honestly until I looked it up today. I didn't realize that play the par fives one over on the back And if he plays it you know obviously Scott and Cabrera birdied the 18th But if he if he birdies the par fives on the back he'd have been right there in it What what? I don't know if my question is related to that but how often do you think back to 2013?

There's one the 11th hole there is whenever I think about is the one memory I think of that year. Mark made like a 25, 30 footer. And because the crowd's so far back, they're behind the 12th T. You could hear it, even though I'm 20 feet from the hole, I can hear it rattle around before the crowd reacts. So that's a cool memory I have from that day. And then the par five thing, we had six on into 13. I think we had like four on into 15. And it's what makes those par five so good. You've still got to execute. But he was also playing to win the event. He wasn't trying to just blast it over the ground on 15 and take your chance to get up and down. And he was like, I need to make three, so he tried to do it, didn't pull it off.

I think we birded 13. Didn't birdie 13. You birdied 9 and 11 on Sunday. You parted 13 and bogeed 15. Yeah. So that was, but I think back, my memory of the leash on 15, what year was that, 2018 or was that last year? The four iron or was it? Take us to that shot.

Slinging hook. Yeah, with playing Tiger and Tommy Fleetwood. We were on the left side of the 15 Fairway. And we'd actually talked about it, maybe not that week that year, but the year. before because the grandstand right of the green is perfectly such like if that's where you want to hit it but they've got the grandstand there so we always said if we're on the far left you could almost just hit it out on the 7 eighth T and you're going to get your drop either side of the grandstand and then you've got a pretty easy chip not easy chip but it's just going to feed these are

things that guys think about feed down to the pin so sure enough we hit in the left side and we got a fire line mark does this sort of stuff on the range too where he can hit a 50 he does barba stuff where he hits 50 yard cuts and hooks doesn't really do it on the golf course but this was the perfect chance. And we're like, mate, if it goes straight, that's fine.

So I was like, all right. And then he hit this unbelievable looking shot, but it sort of dipped in the air. Like, oh, that's got to go. And you can see on the coverage

it lands right in the upslope and takes all the heat off it and just trickles around to five feet. And then Marklew sells a story that he hit his shot and he's kind of running around to see it where it is and saw that it's on land

and then Tiger goes, well, I guess I ain't fucking laying up now. He's like battling to make the car. He's maybe one. inside the cut line and I can't remember where you hit it but yeah that's tight that was a uh great shot I guess I'm not laying off the mouth I'm so yeah I never heard that part of the story that's pretty cool yeah what's it like playing with Tiger at uh at a masters yeah I mean it's always

I mean it I said it we played with him the last round of the US open at Pebble and I remember him walking off the first two it's just like no matter what happens today it's gonna be a cool day because he's he's my like golf hero it's yeah so it's hard to beat any day with him but then Yeah, he's seen him play that golf course and tons of success, obviously, in the way. But he does it at every golf course. He hits the right or whatever the shot calls for, he tries to hit it and tries to pull it off. And the way he places his ball around there, it's cool to watch. You guys play with him a lot.

A lot. Yeah, we went through a stretch there. It hasn't been as much lately, but, yeah, we went through a stretch, whatever year that was. It was either 17 or 18, him and Tommy, and then that year, we just happened to get both of them at the same event. But, yeah, it was Tommy Fleetwood and Tiger. It was every other week. Because it doesn't seem to bother Leish playing with around that mayhem. I know obviously there's no crowds this year, but like it doesn't,

he seems to just be unflappable. Yeah, I don't know if it's because he's done it so much now, but he's always kind of just thrived on that. His rookie year, we play with Tiger in the last round of the BMW, and that's what got us in the tour of championship and effectively won him the rookie the year. And shot a bogey free 69 or two or three under, whatever it was. So yeah, he's never, he likes, he chats to him the whole time

and tries to get comfortable that way. And now they've, I mean, it must be. 20 or 30 times I played together now. So, you know, Tiger's donated to Mark's foundation stuff for auctions. And so they're somewhat friends, yeah. Cool. Doesn't bother them at all. Do you have a rule or guideline or something as a caddy that, like, you don't, do you

ever, like, there's certain guys you would speak to first during a round of golf and, like, is Tiger one of them? Like, would you say something to Tiger during your round? No. No. No. There's almost, well, yeah, there's almost no one that, apart from him that you're not scared to talk to, but you're just like, you don't want to get in his way or upset his routine.

I mean, yeah, he's about the only one. Phil's kind of up there as well. You just don't want to, especially at a place like Augusta. It's like you're not going to walk up and say, hey, hey, Tiger, what's up? We were saying this? So, yeah, no, but anyone else, it's, I guess they just don't really have that awe about him. Those two do. The phenile story from last year's master's is great.

They came up to him on seven and was like, hey, Tiger, like, how are the kids? And he's just like, they're good. Yeah. It's right. All right. We're not doing this right now. Yeah. Do you ever watch like early coverage of a tournament to see how putts are breaking or see where guys are missing things?

Yeah, definitely. You can pick stuff up pretty easily on TV. He'll text me and be like, dude, watch out for this today. You're clearly watching some events more than others. But that one, yeah. And part of it's just watching the masters too. Being a golf nut, you just kind of want to watch it anyway. I think as much information you can get, it's always helpful.

It's up to you whether you use it or not. But definitely get as much as you can. We were talking about this with Matt Fitzpatrick as well. but there's a data golf article that talks about experience at Augusta and how there does seem to be a true eight or ninth year, 10th year of experience like guys really do perform that much better. Do you see why? And what can what do you attribute that to? Probably the aura kind of where Augusta wears off at that point or maybe a little bit before that. But then but just learning everything you possibly can about that play. It's no, you know, no chance of doing that in the first even first two years. There's so much you're trying to learn. And then. once you do learn, putting that into play and not be nervous to do it and all that's like getting up the first tee and hitting the appropriate shot, even though you feel like the last thing you want to do is just don't top it or don't, look, you can't feel your hand. Like then it becomes, all right, now I feel comfortable enough to actually go and try and do what I'm supposed to do rather than just get it in play.

I don't remember where to attribute this quote to originally, but something along the lines of you don't read the greens at Augusta, you learn them. Do you think that's inaccurate? You're nodding your head as if that's accurate, but you remember things more often than you do seeing it with your I think so, yeah. And Mark's very, like, he'll come back to me after either making him, and he's like, had that part in the past and it did this, so, and ended up making it this year, stuff like that. And I think, and going back to like the Greens book, I mean, if you don't, because there's no Greens book, you have to learn them rather than just saying, oh, this is 2% slow, two inches outside level, whatever, you know, learning them from your approach shot,

too, is very valuable. Interesting. More so than other golf courses? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, just because the miss is so severe or the bad miss is so severe and getting it to a position it becomes an easy par is uh it's pretty valuable do you see the right to is it like do you need to move it right to left at augusta i think it helps a little bit i think it's negated if you can hit it high okay 10 obviously you need to 13 13 there's still room to hit a little cut there if you need to it'd help to hit a draw around that corner no doubt um who's the one that always comes to mind for me yeah Yeah, and when we first started going there, it wasn't a big issue because you couldn't reach those bungers almost. Now that everyone can, you kind of got to hit it left of those bungers.

But if you can hit a high enough, you're over the trees and you can almost fade it down there as well. 14's one, actually. You do need a slight draw there because the fairway is so can be the other way, just to hold the fairway. This year, I think it would be soft enough that it won't really make a big difference. So you get a new yardage book when you check in every year, and then you bring your old ones just and translate on. all the notes because I see we're on I'm on the first hole here looking at it and you've got a lot of numbers written down here is this just so you go day by day and say this was my number yeah it looks like you have a front number and then it's like 30 paces on for number one you get that 185 you

you jot down what club you hit and that's all just so you had this encyclopedia of data to work back on yep exactly and so it'll say what round we played where the wind was I'll just draw an arrow I don't write to south you know whatever yeah the strength of the wind out of five or right either one or two out of five, three out of five, where it landed and then where it finished so you can work out how far they're releasing with that club that day. That is. And then you guys, I see some numbers here like next to some sprinkler heads where you're charting, I imagine you do some practice rounds going and checking what the actual slope yardages are. Yeah, so how far up it plays. And we're in meters too. So,

oh gosh. You'll see all that yardage numbers first converted to meters. And then yeah, up three, up five from the back of the bunker. So how? How do you'll see? do you convert to meters in real time? Just in my head. Yeah. I've done it for so long now. They have, I don't know if Augusta does actually, but most, every other event has meters books.

And then the guys that, guys usually carry either a chart. But we're within one every time. You know, I don't know if 143 yards is exactly 130 meters, but it's no more than one, it's either 129 or 131 if it's wrong. So, yeah. So you get that front number. you translate it to meters, you take the yardage that it's on, and then you translate that to meters.

Yep. And then that's how you end up with your meter of yardage. All within, it's all got to happen pretty quickly. Yeah. Wow. All right, so T shot on one. So I'm seeing a 309 yardage carry 276 to reach those bunkers. How do you guys get around the T shot on one?

So like I said earlier, like that didn't used to be a big deal because we could barely get, I mean, it's you normally into the wind. That's your first thing of the day. We normally used to be hit at maybe middle of that bunker, 290-ish, 2-95. And now it's, you'll see a lot of three-woods nowadays. It's actually gotten more narrow because the run-out left is way more in play. And we can't carry that 309 bunker. So it's kind of right in the middle for us.

Three-wood leaves us a long way in. And driver, we have to really hit a shape. And you're going on how confident you are. That seems like an uncomfortable shot. Yeah, yeah, it is. That's the thing with the whole Bryson talk. Like, there's no doubt it's going to be in advance. It's just that's just how it is.

Well, one of the things I wanted to do on this hole by hole is like, all right, you're also catting for Bryce? What's he doing here? His line is going to be something that I've never even thought about. Have you played with him since he's? Not since he's changed, no. I mean, he's just, that bunker's an app complete afterthought. It's not even in play for him, no. I mean, unless it's 50 degrees and into the wind, it feels weird to say that then it might be in play at 310.

But they also move you up quite a ways. I mean, we won't be hitting off the back back marker. The other thing that Augusta does So you'll see on the bottom of the page there The T-box where that red dot is where it's actually measured from Compared to every other random to the back of the T So a lot of the time you'll say the T's up 10 But it's actually this is where it's measured from

So we'll be up 20 from the back of the T It's only 10 so it'll be 300-ish Yeah And then Matt Fitzpatrick was talking about How he picked up a tip from Justin Rose It was just like if you are in the middle of the first screen You are no more than 20 feet away 20, 25 feet away

From any of the putts So they play center of the green there. You guys have any particular strategy for the approach into one? No, we're the same deal. Just the areas they can have pins, it's a big green, but the areas that they can have them don't, it's really quite small. The only one we don't love that play to is the front left. It's like 9, sorry, 14 on-ish,

just because you get two or three feet past that and you can almost put it off the front of the green if you get a little rush of blood. That one's a tricky pin. Do they surprise you with pins? I mean, is it pretty predictable from year over year? Pretty much. Yeah, the one that's going to, eventually they're going to have a pin on five on that front top little section.

And it's seriously about seven feet. But like this, around that pin you've got about three feet long, three feet short, three feet left or right. And that's it. It's actually going to be hard to like leave your put up there if you don't get the pace right. That was the first hole I ever saw when I walked in. Like I walked in that gate. I was, you know, however old. And just remember thinking like, wait, like that's the fucking green.

That's what I was saying. too is like I you walk that course as a fan and those golf shots look so difficult just the shape of the greens looks like I don't know what I don't know what my shot would be into that hole and I know this isn't designed for us but like man they had the one place walking off the street that's like is so visually intimidated yeah yeah and honestly the play there is just get it over that front slope and somewhere short of that bunker and then try try to but they did have a pin on the front right there one year would have been like 2010 or 11.

It was seriously like a yard and a half on the green, but 15 deep and with a five-degree, a five-foot slope behind it. Did there any, stop me if I don't ask a question related to any, any little nuggets you have on any particular holes. We don't have to go into it on every single hole. One question I have, too. So at the beginning of the day, you pick up the whole locations sheet and then what's your, what's your process look like?

They usually come out. Steve Sands usually sends them to us actually like the night before. So then you just go through and you put. them in and that's what I was getting out earlier like it's up to us then to know exactly where the pin is on the green so then I can and then mark doesn't have to worry about that but then if you're not sure about one you get yeah the go if you've got time you go out there and just if you've one or two you might need to see you just go straight there and you can knock it out pretty easily and then that's the experience thing you know roughly where they're gonna put the pin and then might change by yard or so but where the miss is and where the miss is and where so going down to number two now I see your your t shot here says minus 12 meters that that means it's playing 12 meters down this And then you guys, so what's your, what's your target? You're aiming at that bunker with a little bit of a draw? Some years Mark's been able to carry that bunker. So it's 318, cover it downhill, obviously.

And if there's any sort of help, roughly at 300, you can just kind of just bomb a high one there. And if that takes that out of play, it's a huge advantage. And then this does a lot to the credence of the slopes on TV. You can't do justice to us on TV. It's like from the top of that hill, even with that bunker, it still plays 15 yards downhill to that grid. Yeah, 15 meters, almost 20 yards, yeah.

Yeah, so I think actually the second, maybe second and 18 are going to be the two holes that look the most different without fans. You're going to stand at that top of the hill. And normally like, there's almost like a grandstand of people there just sit on the hill that really surrounds the green. It's going to look bare this year. Yeah. It'll be an odd kind of shot at that. As far as the wind this year, have you talked to any local Augustins or anything like that as far as like, is it, does it typically come out of the same direction? No, I haven't.

It will be interesting. It'll be a lot different, you know, with it cooling down rather than getting warmer in the year. Is there a prevailing wind at Augusta? I feel like I'm sure, actually. Yeah, I've never really thought of it as a typical wind direction. I think just everywhere. Is it weird to read, to try to, those trees really do play a huge factor in trying to read the wind out there? Yeah, there's certain holes you can use, like if you stand on the second green, you can see seven.

Third T, you can see, see, see. Like, you're trying to do as much as that. I guess the other little nugget we have is like, so 10, 11, 12, the T shots are all exact same direction. So when you're T off 10, if you can remember, like, you get, yeah, the only problem with that is you're so covered by trees that you're back there on, you're in a shoot on 11, you're in a shoot on 12. You've just got to really trust where the wind has been. It doesn't make it any easier if it starts swirling a little bit, but if you stick to that one, you're usually not, not too far away. Interesting. So number two, I'm seeing a note here.

I'm assuming LHS means left-hand side. Chips will stop on, and I don't know. what that what what so down there but so if you miss the green left there because it's so severely sloped from you're above you're above the pin and chipping straight downhill but if you hit a decent chip it will stop before it goes into that bunga and then it actually becomes an uphill part so it's not that drastic any any particular strategies when you guys are coming into number two green from you know with say a second shot obviously it's going to depend on the pin but you know if if the pin's left where are you guys playing wait if the pin's right what do you got what kind of shot

you guys hitting yeah that that left pin depending on the number it's either it's super aggressive because that front left bunker is not that bad just don't be short of the bunker or don't be left of it but then the front left you can if as long as you're just in the front third of the green pretty relatively easy chip or part up the hill you just don't want to be more than like three or four yards short of the green because then you're kind of blocked out by the edge of that bunker I love watching too there's so many sprinklers I know my god there are so many yards out there is this like the easiest one to get a number pretty much yeah you could

almost caddy this place is no yardage book just because they're all the front numbers so you get your pin sheet and you walk around you need all the notes and stuff but and that's what in here on this second green you're getting three different front numbers on the sprinklers because there's three different front points because of the left quadrant

the right quadrant and the very front which is very interesting so when the pin is on the far left you can you know it's 43 yards to the front but it's 61 yards to the front left so then you so it gives you a number saying that's five on from front left and that's how you get that The pin chute will say 21 on.

So then you've just got to make sure you've calculated probably from the front right and then work out where the cover is. Gotcha. That's interesting. So getting in number three, this is the hole that I think, correct me if I'm wrong, the pin position is really going to dictate a lot more of your strategy off the team more so than a lot of holes on this golf course. 100%.

What's, when are you guys sending it? When are you guys laying back? Or what's your guys strategy there? Pretty much the only one we don't is the front right. It kind of very, wind dependent. If we can get it on the upslope, then the front right's very doable. Some guys like that full wedge shot into the left pins. That's one you, like that's the most, almost the most precise you have to be on the golf course.

You can hit it up the right and if there's any sort of backspin, it's going to feed down that way anyway. But then you've got the super, super, super super quick part down the hill. So go into that front right, where are you trying to, what number are you guys trying to put into? If it's into the wind and so you can't get on that upslope, I mean, you're looking at at least 90 to 100 yards, which you're right in between those bunkers. Try to get enough spin on it. Yeah, you want to be able to hit a foolish enough shot so it doesn't spend too much,

but also you need it to grab at the same time. And it's only four on. So basically your front number is about where you're trying to hit it. One or two past that, maybe. Three is such a great dividing line hole. It's like, you can make a birdie. If you hit two great golf shots,

you're making a birdie, but also if you go for it and you don't, you're probably making bogey. Especially that left pin is true where people can separate themselves. And then it runs away past that pin into that little valley behind the green. And it should be an easy chip,

but it's got four feet of break on it. You get a little ante with it and it doesn't get there. It's rolling back to your feet. It's a tough one. As far as the surrounds go, as far as the, you know, playing it off the fringe or playing it here or there, like are you always trying to,

I mean, Mark's a relatively low ball hitter. Yeah. So when it is a little bit wet out, like that probably affects you guys a lot more than other people in the field. Yeah. And the years he's played well, his short game's just been phenomenal.

So, and I think, going back to what we said, if you aren't 100% on but your short game is, you can definitely keep yourself in the golf tournament around this place. Is chipping easy at Augusta, relatively speaking,

just that grass seems so pure and there's enough there that it's not off bare lies, at least what it seems like. You never get a bare one, which is nice, and it's Bermuda underneath. So you've got a little bit of cushion underneath.

I guess it's rye grass, whatever it is on top. And also, most of the time, if you're missing it in the right spot, you've got a big slope that you can work it in off. So you, but the into the grain factor, I guess, makes it difficult because you can easily just hit one two feet. Are you reading, I believe the answer to this question is there is none, but are you reading grain on these greens?

No, Mark does. He does re-grain. I mean, minimal. He's 100% believer in this grain in there. They're so fast that it almost doesn't matter, but no, he definitely has a little bit of a grain. Okay. Wait, like on three, where are you trying to, where do you? do you not want to go on three?

Right trees are obviously not a good spot, but then just the, if you got 50 yards, if you get driving, you got 50 yards in that left pin, in any pin really, you get that a little heavy. You've got 38 yards in for your next one. The back one seems like you could get, like you're not trying to leave yourself a precise number to the back one because you hit a running shot back there. Yeah, you just kind of land in that middle of grain, let it feed down. That's actually probably the easiest pin on the hole, just because left of the grain is actually

not bad there either. But then, and then you've missed that one right, it's cactus. Yeah, it's a good hole, actually. Yeah.

That one takes a lot of work and strategy on it. I used to think it was kind of a lame hole, but the more I kind of dug into it it was like, yeah, that's actually one of them. Got a shitload of notes for four. Yeah,

I'm really to talk about four. It's a good short, par four. No, it's a brute of a par three. How often are you using the, do they use the two different T-boxes? Are you up at least one of the days, usually?

Yeah, so let's see. Yeah, one day, I've got 2018 here. Yeah, one day, I feel like last year maybe it was two. It's a better hole. They need a middle tea there somewhere. It's 220 front from the back and 150 from the front up to. Let's have a 190 front. It'd be nice. But they don't have that on any holes. They don't have like, that's where, you know, if you have a day this, you know, this fall, like 11 per se and you get a cold wind back in your face, they can only move that. hole up to 485 at the at the least I think? Or 400 because that T's a hundred yards up like that's, they're not going to do that. You're right. Yeah, I'd love a middle T there but yeah

it's funny that hole's hard. Even the left pins you want to miss it left especially the front left that's 14ish on. That pins seems so difficult. It's so hard. The false front's eight deep so you've got six over that which

good luck if you can hit a three iron just straight at it, carry it your exact number like all play two. It's down 12. 12 yards 10 meters. But yeah, that front, if you're missing that front right, I'm going to that pin, it's, there's too much slope to stop it.

It'll stop before it goes in that left bunker, but you've got 20 feet. This whole always seems to me like the green is too small for the distance you're coming in from. Like, it just seems so difficult to anything that's not, any pen that's, they're not on the top tier. Yeah.

It just seems. Yeah. And now I can't think about this hole without thinking of Phil. Bickleson being in the trees to the left, long left. Which he was trying to put it in the bunker, right? He was trying to put it in the left bunker. Yeah, yeah.

Well, yeah. Yeah. And that's the spot to hit it, to be honest. I mean, those left pins, the back, the top left one. The top right pins are really hard because you can't hit it long. And then you've got it, you can't run your bunker shop up there. You've got a flight up there. Talking about the sand, is it remarkably consistent throughout the course.

It is really good, actually. And they've got that nice firm base. I think that's why the Aussies, although they've only had one winner, they do well. because a lot of the times you're actually yeah you're almost aiming at bunkers sorry to backtrack here but i skipped over what what bryson would have done on two he's just getting it how i guess the question is how far down the hill can he get it will it run is he able to a spot where no one else's get to and it runs in april who'd be able to but and that being said i'm just assuming it's going to be a lot softer who knows

but um shit like he's getting it down like on the crosswalk right i mean if it was firm honestly i mean the bunk is an afterthought at 318 yeah yeah yeah He's going to have to take it so far left, but I mean, the fairway slabs that way, he could end up with eight, seven, eight iron in there. Yeah. And that's, and three is going to be interesting too, because he can get there. Yep. It's just how, what is his strategy going to be based on the different pins? Because he could get there and make five pretty easily if you're in the wrong spot.

Absolutely. Yep. That's going to be interesting. And then four, I mean, it's going to be, he's hitting less iron than everyone else is hit into that. Yeah. That's the other advantage of what he's doing is just take away the driver. But everything else is... Regular shots are still in.

He's sitting his seven on as far as guys. He's four on. So I got an outdated book on number five here that I'm looking at. You brought three books. So we've just got a look at a book here. I think Tron's got the 2019 book there. I've got 19. And just looking at the lines on the green, like...

Yeah. It's terrifying. What's that T shot like now with the new T on five? Last year we couldn't... I mean, I guess the numbers say we probably could, but if you're aiming just right of that bunker, you almost can't get to it, the run out of the ride is...

It looks like it's... It looks really short, but it plays so long. It's so far uphill. And obviously, there's no run. So obviously, completely different to what we were used to. It used to be a three wood for us. It kind of just shape one up the right and not quite. The Bungazeta play, take it on a little bit.

But now it was, you know, last year it was just driver. Yeah, some of the decision making came out of that hole, which I think, it still seems like a very uncomfortable hole. Yeah. We actually ended up in a cut there last year. Oh, yeah. And part of that, you know, that's probably why it didn't go as far. I think Target did the same thing,

aimed at them and cut it off them rather than aiming up the ride. Have you ever been in that back bunker behind the green? Yes. It's actually not a bad spot, especially the back pins. Just take those mounds out of play in the front. Yeah, it's actually pretty, I mean, my notes here say it's okay to all of them. They're eventually going to use the top left pin there. I guess it's kind of frontish left pin.

It won't be very good to that one, but the rest of them, it's fine because the slope from the front of the green axes a backstop now to that bunker shot. Well, when I say that, it's good for a good bunker player. Like Mark's phenomenal out of bunkers. You'd rather be on the green. You're not trying to do it. When I'm flying into that thing, but if it trickles in there, it's okay.

Augusta is obviously changed a ton over the years, but this hole, I've always struggled. The original concept for this was the road hole. Maybe it's kind of a reverse road hole, but I really don't see a roadhole template at all in this, in this one now. I would 100% agree. So it's the one, it's the, I don't have many holes that I don't love out there, but it's probably one of them. I don't love watching this hole, be honest. If you design that today, it'd be, all right, start again. Speaking of the road hole, like, I can't wait until, I guess it'll be 2022.

We'll have you back on before San Diego. Yeah, I love to talk about what Bryson's going to do and probably two or three other people at that place. Yeah. I mean, so Bryson on five, what's the cover tron on the left bunkers now on, off the T on five? You're not thinking about, you're not thinking about that number. Three-13. Yes, the far one. They move the bunkers, too.

I'm pretty sure they moved them left. Okay. It's 279. Yeah, so I've got 277. So it must have been... In the first one and then 313 to cover the second one. Okay. Yeah, so there must have...

I mean, distance-wise, it probably hasn't changed it much. Just a lot of the angle, I think is... I still can't believe they moved a road to extend the T. I mean, the Google Earth, if you go to Google Earth and then just like slide the timeline back further and just watch a road get moved so a new T could be built, it is like, it is jarring. It does just look like, yeah, we are completely up against the wall, can't move it. No, no, no, we move the road.

move everything else. Have you ever been completely stymied over on the left in front of that massive elephant mound? We've been in those bunkers on the green.

Yeah. And like had one roll back to the feed I'm sure we have yeah, we must. You don't write that down in the end of the book.

Remember when you did this? Remember when you didn't? We didn't quite catch one and got, remember when I gave her bad club and we come up for that show? See, I've always,

at least courses I've played a lot, I've never felt like I need to write stuff down. But now I see the benefit of this of, you know, you have written, in that back bunker, okay to all, especially backpins behind five.

So that is just like a great visual. If you're somewhat between clubs and you see that little note, it's like, all right, let's just favor. Yeah. As long as I'm flying the bunker, let's just favor that. That's great. All right. On to number six, downhill part three.

I feel like this is one of the holes that is very, the pins are set. You know what the pins are going to be on six for the next part. Half the green they can't use, basically. It's probably more than half the green. It's a really, really cool green. I mean, that back left pin is really fun. It's kind of radani. Like, you can use that slope in the middle of the green to get it back there.

The front left is very bullish, very attackable. That back right one is very difficult. Yep. Any other notes nuggets? Just the back left, if you don't, I mean, it'll roll back. I mean, it's two or three yards on top of that. There's a flat spot up there. So most of the time it'll roll back and you might have 30 feet. And that's the place to miss it if you're going to miss it.

but then if you get hairy on your first part and you hit it five feet past, you can hit your next one back down there. If the greens are quick that year, oh, they're always quick, but really quick that year. So it's a really sneaky, tough two-putt, but reward for hitting a good shot. Like you said, that front-left one, pretty getable.

But not a lot of easy putts down there. I feel like I see a lot of guys hit it close there and struggle to make the put. I guess usually play on Sunday before. What are the greens speeds like Sunday to Wednesday and Wednesday to Thursday? Does it progress a lot during the week? I find the Sunday before the tournament is the most like you'll get Thursday.

Okay. Saturday, Sunday, like past champions and members can still go and play. So it's almost like, this is as close as we're going to get it. Let's show them what it's like. And then they kind of let it go a little bit Monday, Tuesday, sharpen it back up Wednesday, and then Thursday they get it back. Interesting. Because I've heard if you play it a month in advance,

you are playing a totally different golf course. Yeah. Yeah. We've been once before our first year there, and it was nice to get like a part of the all. out of the way and all this stuff, but golf course was. It was not really. All right. On number seven.

So this hole, again, the original. This is the one that makes me the most upset, I think. It used to be like 18 at St. Andrews was the original hole. Now it is a long par four through a shoot. It could not be any more polar opposite. But this hole seems very, from an outsider's perspective, very devoid of strategy off the tee. I mean, it's just like hit it right here. Is that kind of how you guys view it?

Is it driver? Is it? If the winds off the left, we want. own hit driver just because Mark being a fader, the fairway slopes a lot left or right. So we have hit three wood in the past, but anyone who draws the ball is going to hit driver. And you see that next tee up is 120 yards up. So that's exactly what we're talking about earlier. There's no chance of planning an up to.

Not that they need to there, it's a short hole, but I'd love that to be a three ironed wedge hole. I think that's what it was supposed to be, like you said. But yeah, I mean, fairway's so important. The right trees, you can always chase something up in the bunkers, sometimes sneak them through and the front bunkers to any sort of pin aren't that bad um left trees it's so hard to hook you've got a hundred yards you're trying to hook something and chase it doesn't never really works out that well so you do think this is full board driver for bryson though this is the one hall is kind of like i wonder what he's going to do well the only thing i see is it doesn't get any from where he's

going to hit it there's no it's the same width all the way exactly yeah so i mean why wouldn't he it's like he's hitting that club australes anyway this green is really cool i think well and it seems like the trees up the right like if you get far enough down there up the right the tree's kind of thin out yeah that's what i was saying like see you can always not always but most of the time you can either sneak one under them you can hit get one up in the air and get on the green left tree not so much because it divides the third and the seventh there so they're a bit more thicker but yeah and they're really cool green that that way right pin is is such a hard one you almost don't even try and get out of and the sunday pin is very accessible exactly yeah mark's actually made a two there to that pin

the same deal just hit it up past it bit of spin hopefully if not it'll just roll back pin's tough because long's no good you got the runoff left run off right and those front bunkers look to be okay to okay to the front middle god that's so cool yeah front middle pin pretty much even that front right pin they're pretty good because you just use the slope back pins yeah it's okay but it's tough you're not going to make six but you'll you'll be doing well to make par so on to number eight and again this another one that is playing a very different slope than I think, I mean, I think this one's pretty well highlighted on there, but I'm seeing, you know, from where you would be playing left of that, of the bunker,

plus 20 yards playing up the hill into that hole. The bunker looks to be perfectly positioned for, for you guys, in terms of you've got to avoid it. Yeah. Looks to be an afterthought for Bryson as well, though. Correct. What's you guys, is you guys hitting a cut? Yeah, Mark always starts down the left there, and the bunkers,

yeah, you can actually hit it right of the bunker and still have a shot at the green within reason. Bung is just the only place that you can't get it on the green well left trees too I guess but even from the left trees you're laying up so far up the right that it's actually okay You're trying to find the angle to come into that green If you're laying up on eight are you really trying to

So you're looking straight down the shoot of those Yeah um yes definitely Especially depending on back left pins You want to get it past the front edge If you can like 20 30 past the front edge if you can Even though you're not really going at the green Just so you have full enough shot to spin it

And then you've got all the You're heading straight down here rather than side slopes. The opposite is that back right pin. You don't want to be past the front edge. This is another hole that when you walk by, like I remember not being able to see the green because of the mounds.

Mounds around it, yeah. Yeah. Especially, yeah, they walk. I think most of the gallery goes around the left there. Until you get on the other side of the ninth tee, you can't see much unless you're in that stand. Yeah, and it's such a divide. I mean, parfires around here,

I think are really good because you feel like you should birdie them all. You can make six here very quickly. You're hitting the bunker and you don't get your next one on top. You've got seven iron of a high, like a big slope to a tough green. You can make six pretty quick, but you need a birdie that three or four days to hang around. Eight, and there are a couple holes of Augusta that are like, man, there is no other golf hole that you play during the course of a year that looks anything like this. I mean, is it totally blind going for that green and two? Another front, not the front pin.

Well, yeah, blinders and you can't see where you go on. but the front pin you really don't have to hook it or draw it that much. I mean, it'll help definitely. But you can hit a straight one there and be fine. The back left one, it's hidden hope is. You're hooking it, trying to land into those mounds and then see what it does. So you have a certain spot on the mounds or a certain spot on a tree in the distance. Yeah, and a lot of, a lot of, camera towers are a lot of L.

Because, yeah, as you say, completely blinds. You've got to pick something up high to aim at, and you can't see a lot of those mounds from the fairway. I feel like I don't know where I can attribute this to, but I heard somebody say that Tiger goes up the slope of that, he zigzags when he walks up the slope of that fairway because of how steep it is so he's not going directly up a hill. Is that sound right? It could.

Some of the back issues, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a steep, steep slope for sure. Maybe it's Phil when he wasn't in his good shape. But supposedly somebody, you huffing and puffing when you get to the top of a, yeah, yeah, for sure. And then coming back down the hill on nine. I love nine. Yeah, nine. Nine is also a whole bit. I mean, it used to be, but before there was a ton of trees in between, it used to be like an option of playing up one fairway or nine because the green used to boomerang around those front bunkers.

And obviously, that has changed a lot over the years. But T-shot, you're just trying to get, are you guys trying to get it to all the way to the bottom of the hill? Is that possible for you guys? Yeah, this is one where, I mean, you would love to hit a draw down here, but even Mark is a fade-off. He hits it high enough. The trees on the left kind of overhang the fairway a little bit, so you've got to dodge them. But he can hit a high. fade down there and it's fine. But yeah, generally we'll run all the way down the bottom of the hill and have some sort of wedge in. It seems like an uncomfortable shot though off a down slope a little bit. Very.

You kind of need to hit a draw maybe around the bunkers a little bit. Especially to any back pin. The good part about that is you're trying to land in the middle of the green and bounce it back there. At least that's what we do. This seems like one with Bryson where he's going to hit it down past where the slope is anyway. Like he's not going to get the benefit of the downhill hole, right?

Well, this is the hole that Speed said. Yeah. He was like, he has a, and I looked this up on Google Earth, I think his fairway is 630 yards wide because he could hit it. It's where the old members like practice range used to be. Yeah, right in the middle of, what is that, between 18 and. Yeah, between 18, 9 and 8 really. Yeah.

So those trees on the left there, they're not in play. Yeah, so he's right. And he's going to have 600 yards to hit it in. And a great angle down there too. Yeah, you're going to want to be. Down the right for sure, but he's saying he could go all the way to the leaderboard on one. Like, is where the fair way is. I mean, you don't want to be over there.

It's a bad angle, but he's going to hit it and find it. And those trees are not going to be an issue for him there. Exactly. The slope of nine green, I think, is another one that's super hard to capture and show. But like that false front is extremely real, but only to a couple pin positions, right? Yeah, they use two down the bottom. The hardest part about that one is actually not hitting another. You know how bad short is, but so not overcorrect.

directing and hit on the next one up because it's you can put it. It's one of those ones where you see guys hitting it sideways and using slopes to even keep it on that right level. I'm surprised it only plays a couple yards up the hill from that, from the bottom of that slope. It looks like plus five plus four or something like that. Seven to the back. Yeah.

I guess it's more gradual. Tricky. Fun hole. Very fun hole. That's a good hole. All right. Back nine at Augusta, which is really, I mean, the tournament doesn't start here until.

We've basically been talking about practice rounds. Yeah. 10 t shot you mentioned this one as being the one of the two that you really do need to draw it a lot is it three wood for you guys We hit three wood yeah You can firm use you can hit the iron The only thing is the fairways mown into the grain So if you get unlucky and it doesn't quite run down there I mean it's what is it 250 to the start of the downslope down

And you need to cover more than that Yeah You're not just trying to hit a 250 So you're not just 20 adjusted in the air most guys This is one that I was thinking about is like if brison hit driver full bore with a draw on it. Does he have to worry about being the only person to ever put it in that middle bunker?

How far is it to those? I mean, it would have to be like 360. I definitely be worried about that bunker. Yeah. Somebody almost got in it last year or maybe the year before that. It was Rory or somebody put one real close to it. But I think he had even said

this is not a driver hole for him. I don't see any of a driver driver. I wouldn't yet. I would say him hitting an eye in here before he. it's a before you hit driver. This is another one that just looks like a very uncomfortable shot because you're never on it. You're not getting a flat light anywhere on number 10.

A lot more flat down the left. So the more you hook it, the bigger advantage you get, a bigger reward you get, sorry. Tricy green, if you don't get all the way down then, you've got, let's say,

if you hit it 300 yards, you've got 180 front. So it's 7. 9ish, 6.inish for some guys, the back pins. Right being not good. Left, just left of the green. It's a pretty easy chip to most pins.

Is there a certain sense, though, that, like, if you hit it in there with the wrong shot shape and you hit it left, it's going to, it's going to churn it around the hill. If you're hitting any sort of drawer, you have to be right half the grain. Anything on the left half of the grain is going to run off. So, yeah, definitely a fade.

Fade into that green. That front, that top-ish right pin, very snaky. Bunk is not great. I feel like I see guys not put this green very well. It seems weirdly hard to read. It's severely slow from back to front. Adam Scott talked about that when he won

Stevie giving him an adding a cup to his read that's hard to hit it when you think you're going to win the golf well you're playing good enough to be a chance to win the golf tournament you think you're reading them pretty well

and someone tells you to hit a cup higher than what you think is going to be and end up being the right call he made the part but that clip is so cool because you can Stevie like looks down to ground and shaking his head and he's like I'm promising you

that it breaks more than you think and he makes it. It's got to be hard I mean do you have that in you? I don't know if I do you have that in you? I don't know if I do. To be honest, just get out of the way. Let him...

I mean, if he just shows the right edge and you've moved him a cup, it's a tough one to swallow. That's why Steve's got all these green jackets in his closet. 11. Gosh, I got to admit, it's probably my least favorite hold of watch at Augusta. I think it's one that's just been...

I hate what they've done with it over the years. I hate the trees down the right. This is one where if they wanted to do something just crazy this year, like go to the members T-box. see. Yeah. That's the only way to negate Brosson's advantage.

Yeah. Because that point the ward is in play for him by the green. Or we've got a super odd-forward. Yeah, like 70 yards. Yeah. Because that green just doesn't seem to want. Like if you guys are coming in with four, I don't know what you guys are usually hitting into this green.

I mean, there's no reason to go at this green, right? Well, in 13, you guys birdied this hole. Yeah. What did you do in 13? 2013, you're saying. 2013, yeah. He, we, it was the back left pin on Sunday.

Mark hit it, I mean, a great shot to 25, 30 feet short right of the pin. And it kind of just fed down the green to pin high. Sorry, not pin high, in line with the pin. And then, and then, yeah, made it. But Bryson's going to, this is where he'll really separate himself from the field, I guess. Because, yeah, like you say, we're hitting, if we've got four, five line in, we're not going almost at any pin. It's just the right edge of the green and try and bounce it down.

There's also the mound short right of it that you got to avoid Because even if you hit that you can go down in the water It can kick in the water, yeah for sure that's 20 shore the green The back pin it's super hard It's probably the easiest one But if you hit it too far Trying to get pin high and you miss the green right Now you're blocked out by the bunker

Chipping straight down towards the water You almost like lay up your chip there Missing the green right to any pins It's the place to miss it but it's Such a hard chip I feel like that middle right pin You look like you know kind of on that flat Like that's almost seems like one of the tougher ones

because you've got you've got the mounds so close there and then I don't know This might be just the way I see it But when there's water left and there's a right pin Those are the hard pins Yes because you're not going to aim at the water We talked about this with Max It was like for an amateur it's the opposite

Right the pin is close to the water It is terrifying So you just miss over to the right But when the pros don't have a place that they can bail Then that is the ones where you're super super uncomfortable So you'd like pick it, like the island green at Sawgrass. When the pins on the right there, you've got 20 yards left of it. That's with a wedge, it's not that hard of a shot.

But you put it, and it's a wedge anyway. So you should almost always hit that green. But you're not going to miss it right of that pin. And to get it close, you've got to take it on. That's, so this hard, those right pins on 11 are super, super hard. Yeah. God, it's such a hard goal. Probably the same philosophy for 12 then too, right?

Yeah, we almost, it would be situational to really go up. that back right pin. What's the difference for the two T-boxes? Does it really, do they do, is it Sunday T-box the same every year? Is it,

do they, I guess they, do they line up the pins with the different T-boxes? I don't feel like I ever hear that discussed on the television. I don't, no,

I'm not, I'm actually not sure if there's a reason they use. They could be. We don't, I don't play any different. They're the same, they're pretty much the same T-box for us.

Have you guys gone on the water there before? I'm sure. I don't know. He's banished it from his memory. If we have, I've deleted it, yeah. 13 was really cool when Mark made that birdie on 11. He's obviously jacked up, crowds going nuts. I think he hit wedge.

It was like the back right pin obviously, but we weren't going. Taken on probably more than we should have, but he hit a wedge. It was like 160 yards. It was that jacked up. Hit a wedge like 20 feet. It's a great shot. Seems to play pretty short that hole.

And then we always use the win from 1011 T shots to, even if it is bouncing around a little bit, kind of forget about it and trust it. Are there pins you are going to? going at, we know it's not the back right one, but are there pins you guys are attacking? Yeah, I think the left one's, and then the one over the middle of the bunkers, I think, very... You might as well go at them, because there's no great bailout.

And you aren't, do you notice the wind swirling down there like people say it does? It definitely does, yeah. I mean, yeah, you've, you're almost rather it be up when you're hitting, because then, at least if it dies, you're probably going to be long. It's not that it's a great miss over there either, but you shouldn't make far off a six from over there. But yeah, as I said, we kind of just trust our compass what we've been going on. It doesn't make it that much easier, but yeah, it definitely swells a little bit. Do you carry an actual compass with you?

I don't, no. Okay. I guess they're probably in my older books now, but during the week, I just check every what compass they got in the book and I'll circle them and give them a tick if they're correct. The one on the second, actually, is always the whole hole is on one page of the Yardage book, so they've got one compass, so you need a turn. So I'll just write it's like south-southwest direction, stuff like that. Interesting. Because I think, I'm guessing the myth or whatever,

the legend around the wind on 12 has to come when the wind is in, in your face that you wouldn't feel it as much because the trees behind the green are blocking you a little bit. Yes, I would think that. And then it probably to get to, it probably comes up 11-ish, and you'd also feel it coming up 13. Okay.

13. Now to 13. What is your guys line, shot shape, target? The whole limb thing. Yeah, I know. I'll try to sneak a photo when I'm out there next week and send it to you just to make sure. It's definitely there.

It's a three wood for us trying to turn it over somewhere near that corner. The 290 run out at the corner leaves you 175 yards front. So that's where we're trying to hit it. It's kind of demoralizing when you see guys just bomb it straight over there. I mean, we're almost hitting it into the most narrowest part of the fairway. But the theory for us is if it doesn't, if it's not perfect and we don't have a good number, we just lay up. Take a big number out of it.

Are you trying to get it to the flatter part of the fairway down the left side? Yeah. And that's where we were in 13, actually. Mark had a great T-shot. We had six on off the flat. I need to look up where he hit it. I can't remember where it hit it. Well, and that's where, you know, not to, I don't want to deter this conversation into the distance debate,

but that exact thing is like what this shot at 13 is supposed to be. It's not supposed to be a bomb driver over the corner of it. It is supposed to be, hey, if you want to hit it really close to the hazard, you're going to be rewarded with a flatter lie. If you bail, your lie is going to be more awkward. And the second shot is so much. more difficult and for the game not to have that balance on one of the greatest holes ever is really, really sad, I think. And so with that in mind, what is your take?

If you're counting for Bryce and the trees, let's just say the trees look exactly like they have over the years, what's your play? I mean, there's no, as hard as it is. I don't think it's in the spirit of the game. It's not the wrong thing, but you take every advantage you can get. Oh, yeah, for sure. The line, he's going to have to hit it so far left, though. It's the line that I've never really.

really looked at that much. Because he said he's just playing into 14 Fairway, and that seems to be the widest area of Fairway. And that wouldn't be that far left of where we're trying to hit it. That's kind of like, that's probably 10 yards left of where Mark's trying to hit it. And that would make the most sense. There's no point taking on.

I mean, he's going to have probably a nine on origin. Are you guys aiming at those two trees, like those two trees right there? And they act, from the T, they look a long way right. So it's actually, whilst in the narrowest part of the fairway, it gives you, almost gives you a bit of a, as long as I get it to there, we're okay,

and we've got an iron in from there. And it'll feed to the left. It won't get on the flat from that spot. You're going to be left of that, but not as visually as intimidating as something can be. And then for laying up, like what are you, what are you looking for there? It just depends upon where the pin is.

And honestly, like, you see so many guys hit it or not hit it up the right enough. You've almost got to move the crowd, or at least pre-warned that you're going to hit it out there because that's the flattest spot. And the best angle for the distance, you don't want 60 yards. You want at least 100 or 90. So I try and get marked to hit it as far up the right as possible,

except for that back right pin. And even the back left one, you can bounce it up there a little bit. Have you physically moved the crowd before? Like you get up the top of the hill and you're like, hey, we're coming this way. Yeah, like, you're not going to move 500 people. But yeah. What for this second shot, if you guys are going for it,

Is it just like, we just want this ball in the center of the green? Yeah. Any things you guys have picked up over the years on that shot? It seems like such a critical shot in everyone's round. But it seems like everyone's got kind of a different way of playing it, strategizing it. Are you just going to go ahead and hit a draw with the slope? Are you trying to fade it off of it?

Yeah, it really sets up for a fade. Mark kind of gets worried that if he starts it too far right, it's just not going to move that much. And you kind of go a short enough club in that it could be easy to hook a three on, It wouldn't be as easy to hold the green, but you can shape them a lot easier. Six ions, it's kind of a little harder. And he doesn't love starting at trouble anyway.

You'd rather start it clear and work it towards trouble. But I mean, perfect par five for most people. It's a great golf hole. You should go for it every time. If you lay up every day, you're not going to have much trouble. If you hit a decent wedge, you get a good look. What do you think is a tougher pin there? That front pin or the one like way on that, you know,

back mound there. Back mound probably has a lot more pars because it's really you really need to get you know three out of four days you need to get that one but the back left actually probably might have more two eagles too. It's weird chipping from long left of that green that little gutter there that's that's that left side of there it's uncomfortable it's very uncomfortable yeah um that middle that front frontish to middle left pin is as sneaky um especially for the wedge shot, kind of a small little flat area to hit it on. If you're hitting a six sign and then you need to get that hole. On to 14. I see, uh, do not miss T shot left ever. Ever. We've hit it over there a couple of times and had no better than five, I don't believe.

Yeah, the whole green slopes that way so you can never you can never get it anywhere near the, at least from the right trees, you're hitting into the slope and you could control it somewhat. This is a hole you're trying to get though. This is a birdie hole, huh? Yeah, with this green. I mean, apart from the ridiculous false front, everything kind of feeds towards each pin. The drawing in here, the false front is literally half the front of that. The entire front half the green's unusable. So it's a tiny green, like as unusable pins. I remember the first time we ever went there, before Mark's rookie masters, I guess it is, Jeff Ogle said, I'll give you 100 bucks.

He dropped the ball on the left edge of the green and said if you can keep it short of whatever pin it was, middle, and Mark putted it almost off the right edge of the green. It's just such a severe slope. So when you're hitting a pro-shot in there, you use that. You just don't want to miss it to the left side. How year over year, we know what the Sunday pins are for, I'd say, you know, let's say 14 or the 18 holes,

we know pretty much where they're going to be. How different is the location, year over year. Like it's in the same general area. Do they move at a foot? Is it five feet? Is it in the exact same spot? Do you have any...

Yeah, I think... Because that can make a big difference on some of the reads. No more than a yard, I wouldn't think. Unless it's like a brand new pen, obviously. But like the 18th, I'm sure that doesn't move more than one or two feet. Maybe two feet would be a lot, I would think.

Holes like this one on 14. They use that just over the slope, just over the slope. that false front that's diabolical pin especially if the wind's down yeah you just can't get near it this is one too that looks like you know once you get past that 320 330 it starts to kind of widen back up this is another one that brison yeah you know brison will have

more of an advantage because it's going to be wider where he's landed in it we hit three wood off this t too just because the fairway slopes pretty severely left or right he won't have to deal with that he'll be hitting it over that little ridge corner and then fifth driver, full board driver for you guys. I guess is this a difficult tee shot? It seems to be like guys are having a lot of trouble with this t-shy. Ever since they put the trees down the right side,

it seems like a tougher tee shot than maybe people realize it back home. Yeah, it's not, it is, for us it's okay because we can start at those trees and Mark can just fade it off them. But, and he can't reach the run-out trees. You don't want to get too close or else you have to hit that hookshoddy hand.

Do it again. That was some of the best. theater I remember from that mass series. Yeah, I mean, it's such a big reward. If you get in the right spot, you're hitting an eight or nine or nine and so we go full board driver. This plays a few meters down, uh, downhill as well. Is it, is it any other nuggets on that, on that approach out of like, hey, we can't be, it carries a little further here or you're getting to the, the adrenaline part of a round, I assume too. Definitely. Uh, I mean, it's such, and it's not easy just to bail out of the back. Like, honestly, like that back left water

on 16s in play if you just be blasting one straight over there. It's such a tough chip from over there. That's why we hit in the water on 13, but Mark was trying to make three to win the, like, or contend in the tournament and come up short and roll back in the water. But I'd much rather even do that trying to make three than hitting an extra club straight over and then chipping it down and making five. Right.

It would have helped us, sure, but we're not winning the tournament doing that way. And the best way to lay up is down the left side of this. It has to be down the left, yeah. You've got to be careful of those trees. Who was it last year that Molinari? Molinari, clipped them, yeah. So you've got to be careful of those, but it's so much flatter. It's probably the wettest part of the golf force down there.

CPS, like, didn't even react. Yeah, I totally didn't note that it hit the tree, and that's how it ended up going in the water. Going back to Bryson, like this is one for me that, like, this one feels like it might actually be tougher for him with driver. Potentially, yeah. Just with those. If he gets one in the fair way.

Because it does narrow up so much. He's definitely going to be hitting in that narrow area. He might actually get it in those trees where he's far enough in them that the limbs don't start until 15 yards up on those things anyway, so he might be okay. Jeez. I didn't think about that. You get so close to the trees.

So it's narrow in theory, but not really in practice. Fairway-wise, yeah. Because you can manufacture shots from that left side too. I mean, not ideal, obviously, but from 150 yards. I'm assuming that long on 15 is better for certain pins. Are there certain ones that you're just like... If way left pen long's okay, it's just such... You kind of like bumping it into the fringe and letting it trickle down.

If you just get a bad bounce off there, it's in the water. But it's the only place to miss it. You're not gonna... Oh, you shouldn't flirt with missing it long. That's so short. That's another approach that I look... There's a crosswalk there so like fans can go out and stand in 15 Fairway. And that looks like an island green.

Like, and dudes are just dropping four irons into it. It's like an infinity green. know, and I know these guys are good and I know all that, but that's the shot, the ease at which guys are able to just drop, get the number right, I should say. Honestly, that's the hard, that's probably the one I've had the most trouble with getting the right club,

or both of us have getting the right club in Mark's hand. Just because, I mean, and then you see on the highlights, Tiger hitting these shots to three, four, not just Tiger, but, you know, the one's contending, and they get it, like you say, they get it right, and it's four on or a fire line, and it's so hard to get it. You have to land it exactly within two or three yards of your number.

On that one that, You play the slinging hook around the tree. How much, how are you judging that distance? Like, how much are you factoring in the, you know, the de-lofted, the hook? What we did, well, yeah, we used the front number. And Marks and our far lines about 194 and 195 meters, and that was what we had to the front. So we knew as long as it got further than with the hook, it should,

we were going to be okay. If it went dead straight, it was going to cover everything we needed to. But then, yeah, as I said, it started, like, dipping down the hill and I've got the heart rain up a little bit. but the front of that green killed it nicely. Then on to 16. So we talked a little bit about this one earlier, about, you know,

plays a little shorter than for whatever reason that might be. But any other, that front right pin looks so difficult. And honestly kind of boring to watch because everyone ends up down the left anyways. Actually, that front bunker and just right of the greens, not bad to that pin either. You just don't want to be past pin higher to that pin

because then you end up with a up the slope, but then once it gets on top, it's going severely right and then downhill, at least from short of it, you just go on uphill the hallway. Yeah, tricky green, the right pin, that top, well, at least it's top right. That Sunday pin also just looks very difficult to put to. Yep. From anywhere that's not short right, you know.

And even the three, four foot is above the hole to that Sunday pin is sneaky hard. How real is the proximity of all of these holes, you know, you guys have been there coming down the stretch, competing for a master's, like you can, it has to be impossible to avoid what's happening in other parts of the course. Yeah, and that's what it'll be weird about this play. I mean, you'll see, obviously, with the scoreboards, but you just kind of know the roars and you know what's a, oh, I guess, you think you know what's a birdie raw, depending who it's from, what's a eagle roar, what's a passave, you know, what's a good shot, what hasn't been holed yet. I don't, yeah. 17, I imagine, driver for you guys, it just, again, it seems to be, there's, these tree lined holes both sides is just pretty much, there's not like a, there's just no wide part to hit it to, so there's no point hitting, there's a overhanging branch 50 yards of that, tell you, it's perfectly in Mark's eye line

for a fader. One question I got, going back to 16, you've got a note in here, round two that says jacked up. That would have been a... Well, probably... He's 2019. 2019.

Okay, so we must have... Something must have happened on 15, either made three or seven. So he would have roasted one. And how much are you factoring that in as you're playing? Like Saturday, Sunday like like what is what is jacked up is that an extra five meter yeah well at that point it's

just I'll just say look mark this is what we hit yesterday but you were pumped and like and then he can work out how either hard or how he was feeling relative to that day when he's over it but just there's like just more information and then up to us to process it but yeah can I check that out real see how far he hit it because he hits his short lines really far anyway oh this so this is from 18 so this would have been after he made the eagle and And he hit 9-9-165 yards. Dang, that's cool. Are you guys ever, like, far off on clubs?

As in me and Mark making the decision. Yeah, as in, like, having... Very rarely, yeah. The thing for, like, so Mark were up in the wind, and he traps, almost de-lofts and traps the ball a lot. So his short-eynes can go silly distances. So that's where we kind of... And at the end of the day, then he'll be...

He's the ones to decide, like, I can always say, mate, you can get wedge there. I've seen you hit it this far before, but if he's not feeling it, then he'll just go to the soft nine or whatever. But no, we're never that far away. At 17, there isn't a, doesn't seem to be a ton of strategy with this one.

It just seems like a kind of just a difficult golf. Yeah, hard, just narrow. So important to be on the fairway. That back left pin plays so short, especially downwind, and then into the wind, that right cover plays long. Just because there's enough,

it's almost like a second false front over there too. so you've got 10 basically 10 to carry the bunker and then another six over the false front so you're looking at 16 over halfway into the green at that point I feel like I've seen some uncomfortable chips from down that front right from guys in contention too and then long left is yeah you much rather be front right do you agree with Neil's contention that this is stinky Nandina he's always shitting on this all there's not much I mean for yeah there's not much going on with it for everything else that's going on

and the holes around it, it's just kind of like a... But it's probably not a bad thing. You don't... I don't know. You almost don't want too much... A birdie will go a long way here. Bogy's going to hurt you. I'm always fascinated when I go, like, you know,

back by 18T or back on 17 Green. Like, it's how exposed that little knob is that 17... Yeah, that's that right side of 17 Greens. Yeah, there's nothing around you. Yeah. Then going to 18, the, on TV certainly looks like a shoot. Does it feel like a claustrophobic shoot? Yes.

There's some limbs in the way for you guys as well. Good thing. That first left bunker is you can get on the green comfortably from there. So Mark's always aiming at that, working it off it. Half a club up from the fairway it looks like. Yeah, so I mean, that's where like the laser and everything will say whatever it is, 12, 14, but it just doesn't seem to play that much. So we always just go half a club because we end up adding too much

and then you always pass the pin there with a super downhill part. So we just, we went back to half a club. I don't feel like I ever see. Yeah, I don't know, that's interesting. I don't feel like I see guys posing on shots on 18 that come up short. No, it always does seem to go long. Yeah. So it just doesn't seem to play.

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plate, and the upcoming wiregrass. Pynhurst blends timeless charm with the very best in the game today. Visit pinehurst.com to plan your stay. Next interview is a 2022 interview with John Wood that we did ahead of the Masters back then, reheating this one, some great stories and insight from John as well. Enjoy. So how many times have you caddied in the Masters

and is it weird to not be going back home, as many people say come April this year? always weird when you're not at the Masters. I probably worked, I'm going to say 20 times there for a variety of different players. And, you know, it's probably my favorite event to work. But I'll be watching at home from the couch this year like everybody else. So that'll have an appeal to it as well, I'm sure. I didn't mean to bring up a sore subject.

Not at all. Not at all. Your answer cannot be TV doesn't do justice to the elevation change. All right. We know that one. but what's something that people at home probably don't know about Augusta National, the Masters, or that golf course in particular? Let's see.

Okay, the tournament practice facilities, which is top three in the world, is used, I think, 10 days out of the year, total for the Jamboree and for the Masters tournament. The rest of the year they use the members range. So that magnificent practice ground sits there most of the year unused. I think what people don't realize at Augusta is how, if you get a firm and fast week, how precise you have to be with your iron shots is way more than any other tournament we play. U.S. Open, obviously, Saturday, Sunday, gets pretty tough. But at Augusta, you're sitting there a lot of times, like 15 is a great example, 12 is a great example, where you can do everything right as a caddy and the player can do everything right, everything you plan for, and the shot might not work out just because of Augusta win or something. outside of your control. But to me, it's just, it's the funest place to caddy because there's

such a fine line between a shot that works out, a shot that doesn't, especially if it gets firm and fast. I was going to say something along those lines to try to sound smart later on. We talked about specific holes, but one that came to mind for me that maybe isn't, you know, top of mind for a lot of people is the sixth hole where, you know, there's some funnel pins on that hole. You know, if you get front left, you can use some slopes and get to it. But when they put that pin up on the right, I feel like that is about as good of a. an example at Augusta of like a marginal shot straight up not going to cut it today, right? There's almost no way to hit it to 30 feet to the top right pin on six.

You're either inside 20 feet or it's taking the slope and rolling 45, 50, 60 feet away, if you will. Does that is that kind of in line with what you're talking about in terms of the level of precision needed just means like the marginal shot is going to get rejected in so many places more so than other golf courses? Yeah, exactly. Like I said, on 12 and 15. six six is a great example that back right like you talked about there's just no bail on it you know you got to sit there and go i'm taking it on i got to you know try and hit this within 15 feet just long is not bad but it's funny for a difference between a yard over that green and three yards over that green is completely different shots well yard over is pretty easy three yards over is

not so it's that kind of fine you know fine precision on that course that really differentiates it from anything else i never see guys chip, or I'm sorry, I never see guys really putt from off the green at Augusta. On TV, it looks like, hey, well, that looks like a very easy put. Why do we not see that usually? It has it has something to do with the overseed and kind of the speed at which you, you know, you need the ball rolling when it gets on the green. What's your insight on that?

A couple of things. One, it's a really good question. I can't remember exactly how many years ago, but let's say 10 years ago. There was a master's where everybody was putting from just off the surfaces. The chipping areas were cut really tight. They were smooth. You could put it and people were getting away with it. The following year, Augusta said, no, you know, we want people to have to chip. We don't want you to be able to just put from these areas. You're going to have to chip. So what they did was they grew those chipping areas a little bit longer and grew it into you. So they mow it into your stroke. So if you put, the ball just sticks immediately and pops up and there's no consistency to it. So that's why you see most people chipping from around the greens. The other thing is spin. A lot of these whole locations, if you miss it in the wrong place and you put it, there's no way coming off the slope you're coming, it's going to stop.

But if you can hit those little tiny, I'm talking 10, 15 foot chip shots with a tiny bit of check on them, it will slow it down enough on those slopes and enough for the ball to settle near the hole. So you get rid of part of the slope by chipping it to the middle of it or even to the bottom of it. And then that little bit of check slows it down. So I think there's two reasons. They mow it into you.

and it's a little bit longer, and you need to spin around those greens to really control your ball. And also, I feel like contributing to that is it looks like easy grass to chip off of. If there is easy grass, it's not, you know, grainy Bermuda where you got to really worry about precise contact or, you know, really tight lies that, you know, could promote some skanky little chips. Does that seem accurate? Absolutely. The actual contact with the ball is not difficult at Augusta because it is, it's nice, but executing the exact right shot is difficult.

What is it like year to year? I mean, you're talking about one year, it's tight. The next year they didn't like it and they changed that. Is it, I mean, is there a lot of stuff that people don't know about at home in terms of little changes that are made, somewhat dramatic changes that don't show up on television? Do you are notified of changes going into the next year? There's, you know, it's the most tinkered with golf course probably in the history of the game. What's your perspective on that? You know, occasionally you're notified of them.

Somebody gets an aerial shot or you're hearing rumors. Hey, they've moved this bunker a little bit that way. But to me, and I think Bones would agree with this, we used to walk the course all the time together. You'd show up at Augusta and you'd be walking the golf course and you'd look at a bunker and go, I swear that's a yard and a half out further from where it was last year. Or I swear this slope is just a tiny bit steeper than it was the year before. So these tiny little subtle changes that they really don't make public. And there's no reason to really.

Every year they change the course just slightly. So you really got to do your homework there, you know, Monday Tuesday, they make sure that your old numbers, your old yardage book, your old notes is still working. So, yeah, they do make these little tiny, imperceptible almost changes. But the figure is the funny thing, solid. Every time you go to Augusti, you think, this is perfect. They've done everything perfect. Don't change anything. The course is great. Everything's perfect. And then you show up the next year, and there's two or three tweaks, and you go, yeah, that's better. That's better. You know, they just don't miss anything. They're so meticulous with their

course and everything about their tournament, really, just nothing like it. What's it like walking Augusta with Bones? Somebody that's won three, been on the bag for three Masters victories. What are you gleaned from him? Does he give much away to other caddies? You know, we talked for about 10 years in a row, Bones, Joe, myself, and Fluff ran at a house together, walking distance from the driving range. So, you know, we'd sit at home during the day and during the week and say, hey, did you see

this? Did you check this out? Have you shot this one yet? And just kind of go back and forth, all of us really, on the course. And caddies do share info for sure, especially if you're friendly like we were. You know, we don't get into too much of what's happened in the past. It's more so looking towards the future. So it is, you know, one of the greatest tournaments, probably the greatest tournament in the world.

But in terms of our homework and our walking around Augusta, it would be the same as any other course, really, just kind of going back and forth on things. I've heard it both ways. and I don't even know what to believe anymore on this. I hear, you know, it's always been a thing that you need a right-to-left shot at Augusta, and then I hear things like it's kind of being over-dramatized. What's your experience around that place tell you about that? I think that's completely over-traumatized.

I mean, honestly, if you look at the two biggest master's champions ever, Jack cut it, and Tiger mostly hits cuts. Are there a few shots where, yes, you do need to draw it? Absolutely. 13 around the corner. 14, it helps. You know, when I was going up, I always heard the same thing. you had to draw it around there. You had to hit it right to left. I don't, I don't see that anymore.

I think more so you have to hit it high. You have to be able to control your distances. That to me is the two most important things. Pudding is obviously difficult around there, but hitting your numbers with everything from your wedges through four iron is to me the most important thing and having some hype to it. So they will land and stop. We joked earlier about, you know, the everyone's saying that the TV doesn't do justice to the elevation change. But what I think doesn't maybe necessarily translate that well to viewers at home that, you know, haven't been there and walked it.

The uphill and downhill lies to me is what, like the first hole I ever watched at, Augusta was KJ Choi hitting a shot from, from the downslope on the ninth hole to an elevated green. I was like, oh my God, I would hit this backwards with a shank if I had to hit it. Like, it's so difficult.

Like, they just, it just doesn't, at that level, do the lies had that much of an effect on, on precision? Or are they that good at adapting to stuff like that, that it doesn't affect them maybe as much as it does us. Oh, no, the lies are a huge thing around there. I mean, obviously, there's a few holes where you get a flat lie, but not many. And like 10, and you're always, you know, you got a down slope on 10 hitting to a green that kind of sits up a little bit. 13, that balls way above your feet and you're looking at it.

You want to hit a cut, but you're really not comfortable doing it because the slope is so severe the right to left, 18, straight up the hill. Yeah, almost every shot has some sort of level that you're going to need to deal with in terms of hitting your approach shot. Did your players, and I guess I should have started with this, I guess, to tell listeners kind of who you've caddied for at Augusta. And did your players ever try to hit cuts off that slope on the 13th hole? It is very obvious that that could be the shot, but how do you hit a cut off the ball above

your feet? Do people tend to just trust the draw? What's a two-part question there? but what are your thoughts on that? I think for most part, when I work for Calc there, he hit a cut, he cuts every single shot.

But for the most part, I think most guys, no matter where the pin is, try and hit it in the dead center of that green. You know, it's a fairly simple two put to all the pins from there. The one thing about that shot, for some reason,

and going along with Bones shot on 16 was 13 always plays long. You can sit there and be between clubs and you think, boy, I should be able to land this five iron, six iron, 10, 12 yards onto this green. And then you pure,

it and it barely covers. So that's another one that I don't, I can't figure out why it does, but it always plays, you know, five to eight yards longer. And, you know, I think I realized it one year when I thought, I don't think I've ever seen anybody hit it over this green. I've seen people who have the left into, but I've never seen anybody hit into those back bunkers over the green. That's when I kind of realize, you know, this shot always plays so long and you think you use that slope or think it's going to carry 10 to 15 yards on and it just never does. Yeah, I'm thinking about why that may be. I'm wondering if it's a little bit downhill lie, I guess, with the ball above your feet as well.

The only thing I can think of is you've got the ball above your feet and it kind of forces you hit a draw and it kind of forces the ball down a little bit instead of cutting it where it gets that backspin. That's the only thing I've ever really been able to think of, but it's one of the mysteries of Augusta National. Who else have you caddy for at Augusta and kind of what have been some of your best runs at the Masters? Kevin Sutherland, Mark Kalkoveckia, the Nwe-Zong, first Chinese play at Augusta, Hunter Mayhan, and Matt Kucher. So those five guys, I've had a handful of top fives, you know, where I had a look on, had a good feeling on the back nine that it could happen. Never was able to finish one off. But, you know, just being on the back nine at Augusta in any of those last five to seven groups, there's nothing like in golf. You hear the roars and you know, it's almost cliche at this point, but they are different there. And you can kind of gauge exactly what's happened by the sound of the roar, who it is, what they did, just knowing where the tea times are.

It's quite unique that way. Does anything change for a caddy in terms of advice that you give when you're on the back nine at somewhere like Augusta and at the masters in terms of, you know, are you more likely to give a pump up speech or a calm down speech? Are you factoring in adrenaline with any yardages? I mean, obviously with club selection, you might, but are you fudging some numbers maybe at any point? What's it like? Are you feeling nervous and pressure as a caddy coming down the stretch of the Masters? Absolutely.

No question about it. And you want to, really. I mean, you don't want to show your player, but you want to feel those butterflies. You want to, it kind of heightens all your senses. And I think you can, I think it actually brings out the best in you, if you're a really good caddy or you think you're a good caddy and have some confidence out there. because a master's win to a caddy is huge.

A master's win to a player changes your life, changes your career, changes everything. So, you know, you know your player is on edge already. There's some truths the master's beginning on the back nine on Sunday. All you want to do is get yourself in some sort of position. And then you've got different game plans for that back nine. If you're in the lead, if you're way behind, if you're slightly behind, you know, if you get to that 10th tee and you're four behind,

you know you've got to step on the pedal. There's no backing off at this point. Whereas if you got a one or two shot lead, you've got some question mark. How do we going to do this? I'm going to go for it if we have a chance. Are we going to lay it up for sure? So there's different mindsets, different game plans for different positions that you're in coming down that stretch.

You've seen the cycles, you know, of pro golf in terms of course through the season. I'm trying to figure out how to ask this. But I'm amazed by the people like the Louis Us Tazins and Brooks Kepka's come to mind in terms of it feels like when they want to play their best golf the most. And the events they want to play the best, they rise to the occasion. And that feels like with recent years, it feels the opposite with someone like Rory, just as an example, right? And yet everyone wants it the same level.

Everyone wants it at an uncontrollable amount. What is your insight into how guys are able to peak when they want to peak and get their best golf at the times that are the most important? And again, I think I'll view this through my own lens of like every, every very important round to me seems to go very poorly because of expectations. At the highest level, why is that, you know, how are people able to manage that? It's a great question. And boy, if I knew the honest answer, I think I'd make a million bucks tomorrow.

But it's winning a Masters or U.S. Open and Open Championship PGA, it just feels different because of how everybody else reacts around you. I see a lot of guys completely change their routines the week of the Masters. And I don't get that, honestly. I know a number of player of mine, you know, wanted to change his routine and play on Monday, play on Tuesday, play on Wednesday, I'd go, look, if this is the way to prepare, why don't you do it every week? Because the guys who change their routines, I think, are immediately in trouble there because you're already making it bigger than a normal week. And it is bigger, but you want to prepare the exact same way. I think Tiger is the best example of that. I mean, Tiger, when he does play, is almost first to tee off every day, plays his practice around, plays not.

holds, practices, and gets out of there. He's not there all day long. And here's the thing, when it's your first masters or second masters or third masters, you want to stay there all day long. The practice facilities are so great. The patrons are great. The food's great. And it's why go back to your room? It's fantastic here. So it's attractive to want to over practice and over prepare. And you don't realize you've overprepared until Thursday or Friday when your energy level is nothing. So I think that's what some of the veterans or guys who have won it before really take the heart. How do you see pressure manifest itself, either in your players or other players that you're playing with in major championships? Do you see routine changes? Do you see how can you sense

when a player is nervous or maybe behaving differently than they should or would normally behave on a golf course? A lot of it is tempo, not in tempo of your swing, but in tempo of the routine or how fast and slow you're walking. How fast does it normally take you to get through a decision? Like if I'm giving Hunter Mayhan, you know, we get to 14 and I say Hunter, you've got 142 front, 166 total. You need to carry this 58 to get it up top. And at that point, unless it's really, really windy, you know, Hunter would have a good

idea of one who he wanted to hit. But if you see players slowing that down and almost being quiet at that point and their mind's really thinking. That's when you can tell, okay, he's out of sorts a little bit. We need to go back into our normal routine. And sometimes you lead him a little bit and say, you know, at that point, you say it's a perfect eight iron, just hit a full one and let's go. And you can see the opposite as well. Somebody speeds everything up, reads, reading on the greens, you almost get the sense that some people want to get some putts over with because they're tough putts or because it's just the situation. So if you see a guy walking faster, talking faster,

reading greens faster. That's also a sign that you kind of try and reel him in and get him back into his normal flow of things. If he's changed something and you've noticed it and he's playing great, you don't say anything. But if you've noticed the change in his behavior, how much he's talking, what he's talking about, pace of anything, that's when you try and just notice it. You don't want to panic him. He just want to almost do it secretly.

Like you start walking slower or you start walking faster. You start talking more, talking less, slowing things down, speeding things up, just so he kind of comes with you and you don't have to talk about it. You just try and lead him a little bit that way. Tell me about putting at Augusta. This may sound like a very ridiculous statement for a long, long, long time. I've always thought putting at Augusta looks especially hard, and I'm starting to maybe think less and less like that. I feel like you can make mid-range putts out there. You can, you know, short putts aren't maybe a little bit more challenge, a little more slope.

around them than they're used to seeing on normal tour stops. I should stop talking here and ask you just what, tell me about putting at Augusta. What is maybe it different than, normal, uh, normal weeks on tour? Normal weeks on tour, if you put your ball in the wrong place, you can probably still get out of there with a two putt. Yeah. Honestly, it's just not that fast. They're not big of slopes. You put in the wrong place and say, okay, I can, I can just two put this and get out of here. At Augusta, if you put it in the wrong place, you're trying to figure out any possible way to have a close second putt. And a lot of times, if you put it in the wrong place, you don't have a chance. You're going to have a 10 and 12 footer coming back. That being said,

if you do put it in the right place, I think it's one of the best places to make putts in the world. A, because they're perfect, the surfaces are absolutely perfect. But B, because you've watched this tournament your whole life, you know, it's the same whole locations pretty much. And they, you know, there's slight changes here and there to the greens, but you've watched this tournament on TV or in person your entire life and you've seen these puts. You know the put up to the right poles on 16 is extremely slow. You know that put, like we're talking about that upper right pole location on six, you know, it's so hard to get it there. And if you don't, down to the left, you know you've got to hit the heck out of that putt to get it up top.

But it's also a place I think that the practice rounds are made easier in the fact that you have seen it so many times and you know what putts you're going to have. You know where you're going to want to leave it to this hole. You know where you're going to want to leave it to this hold. And I think you can practice the putts. You know you're going to have more to gust them, maybe than some other places. And that's what makes it so fun as a fan is I feel like I even know as a fan, like, all right, the put on 16 to the Sunday pin from short right, it breaks more than it looks. Like I absolutely, right? You see enough guys hit that putt. And even if you end up left of that pin and you have the left to righter, again, I feel like I see you guys miss that put low all the time

under pressure. And the put on 18, what's your read on the put on 18 to the Sunday pen from the right that almost everyone has either for the win or for the tie. Does it put break? I've heard it. Does it straighten than you think? Does it break more? The put that Phil made? No, so Phil was behind the hole, but I feel like Adam Scott's put.

Kepka had a chance there a couple years ago. It's so speed related there. If you're dying it at the hole, it really wants to break across the whole fast. But if it's got a foot or two of speed on it, it tends to want to stay really straight. It almost feels like there's no in between there. It either breaks hard or goes straight and you've just got to match your read and your speed up perfectly to make that put. How do you catty for the 12th hole? How the hell do you do it?

I know it's a different shot. Like all, you know, there's basically three general areas where they could pin it front left, middle, middle and back right. How does it change based on where the pin is? And then what do you what do you tell your guy? Obviously, do your normal things first. Get the numbers, get the carries, get to where you want the ball to land. That's the first thing you're figuring out. you're honestly thinking about that hole coming into it for a couple holes as a caddy,

just trying to make sure you're going to know what the wind's doing there and what you're going to tell your player. The biggest mistakes guys make is indecision. You know, if you are decisive and confident about a club, you're not going to be that far off, most likely. I think most mistakes come when indecision is there. And it's a caddy. That's the last thing you want to do is hem and ha and go back and forth to your player about, uh, well, the wind should be doing this. but man, it feels like this.

And boy, look at the pin on 11. It's doing something different. You've just clotted his head up completely. So you want to get it in your head what you're going to tell him. What do you think that wind's doing? And immediately you've got to come back with mostly right to left, a little bit of hurt. Or there's a lot of help out there and we're not feeling it because of the patrons right behind the T-box. You really got to have that plan to come in immediately with confidence and tell him what's doing.

So he can't let his mind wander to possible, you know, other situations or other directions or strengths that the wind is going. If you do plan for a certain wind and all of a sudden you get on that T and it doesn't feel like what it should, I tend to like to wait it out rather than go back and forth between clubs. Because if you're in between eight and nine, you've got nine out and it feels like it's hurting all of a sudden.

You take eight out and immediately the wind switch and goes downwind. So to go back and forth with clubs, I think it's the wrong way to go about it there. I think make your decision based on the wind that you think it should be doing and then just wait till you feel that wind. And if you've got to wait 30 seconds, 45 seconds to get into the shot, so be it. But I just think that's a more confident way to get into that shot than kind of going

back and forth on the clubs and changing, you know, every time. In terms of where to aim, the only one I think I prefer players aim away from it for your right hander is that far right one. The other ones I think you can kind of go at that front front left. You've got quite a bit of room behind that, even if you go over the green. The middle pins you're going to aim at anyways, because those are kind of in the smartest play anyways, right in the middle of that green depth and, you know, side to side. So it's only that right one where I really, you know, try and point in the yardage book and say,

here's the total, but here's the number to this over this middle bunker by six. That's the number we want to land this right now. The funniest story was my first one there was, you know, Calc was, I think one or two back a tiger, my very first master's, I worked for Calc. And we got to that hole in the traditional right pin. And, you know, he likes to cut everything. So it's a very attractive fin to him. So we go over all the numbers.

And I do that. I look in the book and I say, you've got, you know, 151 to right here pointing to right over that bunker in the middle. He goes, that's a good spot, isn't it? I go, yeah, that's right where you on want to aim. And Cal gets in there. And I see him setting up, setting up, setting up. And literally his last waggle, he moves his feet about an inch to the right, just swings away. He goes, I couldn't do it.

I couldn't do it. I think you hit a pretty good shot. So it turned out all right. But boy, that's a shot there. Like I said, you hit it. It's up in the air. It might be in the water. It might be in the front bunker.

It might be perfect. It might be in the bushes over the green. It just, that's how much the wind turns around there. Well, and that's what, you know, this may be obvious to some, but the difficulty of that shot is kind of, it's hard to really, you got to process so much information there, right? If you want to go with that pin, it's a, probably a different club or it's definitely a different yardage than if you want to go over the center bunker because if you

if you you know want the club that's going to stuff it to the back right one if you pull it it is going in the back bunker it is not going to hold up short and if you right aim at the center and you have a club that's probably a little less and then you end up drifting right then you're in the jordan speed territory right and your eyes exactly right when you get up over it you do the you want to do the cal i've never played at augusta i i i i've played You know, somewhat similar holes right where you just, if you're aiming away from it, you start to shift a little right or oh, I'll push it. I'll push it a little bit towards a pin and you just cannot do that with that. Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly right. The other thing about 12, my opinion is, you know, if you do get a bad breaker, make a bad string goes in the penalty area. To me, the easiest shot there is to go right up to the penalty area, go in that first cut and drop it there. You've got a flop shot off a pretty good lie. It's not tough to hit the green.

You know, you might hit it 10, 15 feet, but a lot of guys go back and try and hit that sand wedge. And all of a sudden, you've got to deal with the wind again. You've got to deal with your adrenaline again. Whenever I had guys hit, you know, unfortunate shots, I really try and encourage him to go play just a little pitch shot from just short in that first cut. Just because I thought it was a much easier shot than trying to hit a 60, 70 yard sand wedge. You talked a little bit about the wind there on 12, and it sounds like you do, you know, subscribe to the theory that it does swirl like we hear about. so often. But honestly, the NBC graphic that I saw on 17, I think starting last year about about wind, maybe kind of blew my mind about wind and how you guys interpreted on the golf

course in terms of, you know, what you're feeling on the ground might be different than what's happening at the apex. And I'd ever, honestly, never even thought about how wind could maybe be going up or down. You know what I mean? According to that graphic of like it doing all those things that it maybe does over the corporate tents and things like that, what, how much of it, you know, is it science versus art in terms of reading wind and, you know, how you do that as a caddy? Most of it's science. And what I try and do, and I think what a lot of caddies try and do is have more than one way to read the wind. If you just do one thing, if you just stand at your ball and throw up grass, you're measuring the wind, you know, in a one yard circle around you, which is nowhere near where the ball is going to be flying. I try to, and I think a lot of caddies keep a compass on their yardage book, not necessarily a physical one.

but you get the forecast early in the day before you play. This is what it should be on all these holes. And then if it's different than that, you can kind of start getting fields for it. But what you do is look for confirmations. There's Spanish moss hanging in all the trees, which is an easy way to figure out. That always lays one way or lays the other or just sits there straight down. Not only flag sticks, but flags up by the clubhouse and the scoreboards. There's quite a few flags around there that you look at.

You never want to go with one thing. You want two or three when your player says, well, it doesn't feel like that at all. You know, you get to 13 or 12 and you tell them what the wind is doing. Well, it doesn't feel like that at all. Then you need to point in your yardage book and say, we're hitting the exact same direction we were on the seventh pole right now, you know, to the northeast. That seven iron came up, you know, and came up short. We only went 158 yards. So we had to have hurt in it.

So we're hitting the same direction now. Have that those scientific facts for him so he can kind of trust it more than what maybe we, what he's feeling on his pant legs. You always, you won't have multiple ways to, to affirm what the wind is doing. This episode is presented by Locke Lomond Whiskeys, the official spirit of the open and a Scotch partner of no laying up. Lock Lomond continues to set a high bar in single malt scotch, earning recognition as IWSC, Scotch Distillery of the Year and taking home 10 best in class awards, along with more

than 70 or better medals across their portfolio, including the original 12-year-old and 18-year-old. What distinguishes Locke Loman is the way they do things different. their distillery features a rare combination of innovative steel designs and a thoughtful approach to maturation, allowing them to craft a distinctive house style. The result is a balanced, refined whiskey with notes of fruit and honey, layer with just a hint of soft smoke. It's approachable, but full of character. Whether you're unwinding after a round or settling in to watch the open, Lock Loman is a natural choice. Learn more at loamunwiskeys.com or ask for Locke Lohman at your preferred spirits retailer. Next up, this is a 2018 interview we did with Bones talking about being on the bag for Phil Mickelson's 2004, 2006, and 2010.

Masters wins, all the things he's learned at Augusta over the time and just geeking out on Bones stories, man. I greatly, I've listened to this episode probably 10 times over the years and I pick up a little something new every time. So greatly appreciate all Bones has given us over the years and enjoy this. Cheers. Before you caddied in your first, first masters, were there any caddies out there that kind of took you under their wing or gave you some pointers before you showed up or as you

arrived? Not really. I was lucky before my first master's in that I was caddying for Larry Mize in 90 and 91 there that I caddied for a guy that that was very detail oriented and knew a lot about the course. He had grown up in the Augusta, Georgia area, knew a lot about it, knew a lot of things, knew how he wanted to play the course. And I'll be honest with you, it's, you know, I've gone there so much, you know, since 1990. And I learned something new about the golf course. And I learned something new about the golf

last year during one particular wind that was blowing on the first hole. So you never stop learning and you acquire as much knowledge as you can, you store it away. You're never going to forget it. Anyway, but early on, I was lucky to work for a guy that shared a lot with me. What was the thing you learned last year on the first hole? I learned that when the wind is hard left to right and in on one, which is often the case. I can't tell you off the top of my head what direction that is, but when it's hard in left to right on one, if you drive it in the fair way on two, you end up getting help on your second shot that you don't anticipate. Was that planned?

No, it was just a shot. It was just a shot was hit, and I remember watching it thinking that shot's getting help. And then the wind ended up blowing that direction three of the four days. So we went with the help, you know, later in the week, and it worked. just, you know, number 206 things that I've learned at Augusta National that I'll never forget, you know, so something as silly is that, you know, as a caddy, you're just doing anything you can to save your player or a shot out there, and that which is something that we picked up on. All right. Let's see if we can uncover the other 205 here, because that's already fascinating to me.

Let's say you're caddying for somebody playing in the Masters for the first time, like a rookie this year. What's something they need to know before arriving or something that you would tell them right off the bat about the golf course? Well, I would certainly pre-warn them that they have the option at Augusta of changing the course radically overnight. Now, it hasn't happened as much here lately as it did back in the early 2000s, but there was a stretch of years where you would be out there on Tuesday and Wednesday and you'd come, you know, you'd play in the par three and you'd think you were, you know, ready for action on Thursday. and you'd get out there on Thursday and you'd be stunned as to how much faster the greens were in 24 hours, or maybe it was tougher to chip around the greens because they cut the grass a little bit lower, just to kind of expect the unexpected.

But they do have the ability of Augustine National to change the course radically, more so I think than any golf course you could ever go to. So that would be one thing for sure. Is it, I mean, so a lot of guys take trips to play the course well in advance of the tournament. Is that kind of a futile experiment as far as because the course can play so different from a firmness standpoint and whatnot? I mean, when you go in advance of the tournament, what are you looking to accomplish? I think you're certainly you're reassuring what your game plan is because there's so many different ways to play holes and to play hole locations out there. I think you're looking for certainly changes in the course because as we all know, and let me go on record saying,

I'm the biggest Augusta National fan there is, the members, the tournament itself. I love everything about it. But, you know, that being said, you can go there, whether it's in the last 20 years, 10 years, five years, and there are changes made to the course that they don't necessarily publicize. I think that they said that they tend to redo two greens a year there, and they put them back together, you know, identically. but I remember a couple years ago them saying okay the following changes

were made since last year's event and we went over to the 13th hole in that little low area left and behind that green wasn't nearly as low as it had been before well everybody agreed about it you ask your catty friends you know your player notices it

you're what have you and you realize that a change has been made that hasn't necessarily been publicized and you know you make the change you you know you make the adjustment based on that wow do you

I mean, we're going to get to the winning years here because I have a million questions to ask you about those. But the stretch that Phil had leading up to his first year in 2004, their first win in 2004, what do you remember most from that stretch from 99 to 2003 in those agonizing close calls? I think he had three straight third place finishes leading up to 04. Yeah, that sounds right. It was just, you want to win so badly. And I was, I lived a big part of my life in the state of Georgia. So I wanted it for Phil and I wanted to see him win, you know, that much more just because of that,

because it is just such an iconic event and you love it and you go there year after year. And you know that it's a course, you know, that if every single PGA tour event was played at Augustine National, Phil would have 150 wins or something like that, you know. It's just a great, great place for him. But it was tough, but you figured it was going to happen and it was just a matter of, of getting a break here and there and continue to play good golf. I remember one year he played with Greg Norman in the first round. It was early in his career.

I want to say 95, 96. And he shot 65 or, I think it was 65 the first round. And I just remember thinking, man, this guy talking about Phil can really, really play this course. And he just put on an absolute clinic out there. And so you wanted it to happen, you know, we were patient. And, you know, certainly Mike Weir winning in 2003, a left hander, you know, I was like, oh, my gosh. the lefty one there before Phil did. As great a player as Mike was and is, but you had to be patient and just wait for things to

fall in place. Was there any kind of shift from a maturity standpoint, strategy standpoint, or anything in advance of 2004 that allowed him to get over the hump? Or was it just his time? No, he certainly started becoming much more efficient inside of 160 yards. He did these towel drills where he would throw towels down in like 10 or 15-yard increments and he got really, really sharp with the scoring clubs. And that certainly helped.

That had happened kind of between the tournaments in 2003 and 04. So that was a factor. And certainly playing, he birdied 12 on Sunday in 04 and just, you know, through the ball down, you know, and it was, you know, basically 160-yard shot and hit an eight-iron to 12 feet and made the pot. But having that kind of under that kind of pressure and, leading the term, and actually not leading the term, but trying to catch Ernie L's and needing a two to kind of jumpstart his final round. You know, being sharp with those kinds of

numbers was huge in terms of that win, that first win. We are actually going to rewatch the 2004 Masters tonight, and we're going to do a live broadcast on Periscope with the listeners and followers. So people are going to be very fat, they're going to open up this podcast on Wednesday morning after having done that. It'd be very excited to hear these stories. But in advance of us re-watching this. What's something about that day that you'd say maybe not a lot of people remember or even aware of? Well, if I, if you don't mind, I'd like to tell a story about something that happened on, I think, on Friday. Of course. You know, the thing that was frustrating at that point about not winning majors was, was that, you know, you would hear Tiger say, and I remember

Duval saying it that, you know, but Tiger especially to win the major, two things have to happen. And you have to play really, really well, and you have to get lucky. And I don't care who you are or how good you are. Any tournament won on the PGA tour, the guy that wins the tournaments can look back on that week and think of a couple of things that happened that were just crazy good breaks that kind of keep your momentum going. And you start thinking, man, this could be my week. And Phil on Friday that week, drove it in the 13th fairway and had hit a four iron into the back right pin there on 13. and overcooked his draw, and the ball overdrew hit on the right side of the green,

and the momentum of it carried it into Ray's Creek. And, you know, big groan from the patrons that are up there by the green, so we know it's wet. And we walked the 215, 20 yards up there to where it was. And, you know, this gets back to the changes in the course. You know, Reyes Creek now is just nothing but solid water. But back then, there were patches of turf in the middle of this creek. And there was one about the size of a manhole cover in the middle of the creek.

And this ball was sitting on it. It was an island unto itself in the middle of this creek, perfectly manicured green grass. And the ball was sitting up on it so that the left-hander could play a shot perfectly off of it. And I swear to you, he could hit driver out of this lie. It was so good. And he damn near chipped it in for Eagle. He chipped it in and made four. And when he went on to win the tournament a couple of days later,

We both talked about how we didn't say it. We didn't verbalize the time, hey, this might be the week. You know, to get an incredibly good break like that and pick up potentially a shot, shot in a half, you know, it was that extra kick in the pants you needed to maybe go on and win. Before that final round in 2004, did it did the moment or did the scenario feel any different to you than any of his previous close calls? That's a good question. What was tough was that he shot 38 on the front nine. He didn't play that badly.

I just remember he bogeied five, and there was another bogey in there somewhere. I can't remember if there was a birdie or not, but there were two or three bogeys on the front, and we were behind the eight ball, and Ernie was making this huge charge, which included making Eagle on eight. And I think Ernie was in the group in front of us, I believe, because I do remember, you know, being on 8T and waiting for Ernie to hit an iron shot into 8 and hearing this huge roar and the ball had ended up rolling up there to 6, 8 feet for Eagle and he made it. And of course, at that point, Ernie had won multiple majors.

And he was, you know, as good a player, you know, other than Tiger as anybody in the game. And it was like, oh boy, here we go. And Phil knew as he made the turn there on Sunday, he was not going to win that tournament unless he did something extraordinary on the back. I mean, he ended up shooting 31 and burning five of the last seven, which is pretty extraordinary. But it was, you know, when we were out there on that front nine, it was tough sledding. And, you know, you've got all these people out there. Phil is very, very popular in the state of Georgia. He won this big junior event there a number of times. He won the Atlanta tournament a number of times. And he won the tour championship a couple of times, I think.

And so folks there liked him. And people, the Masters, wanted him to win. And when you're out there and you're getting behind the eight ball early on Sunday, it's tough. So that 12th hole that you mentioned, so as you said, he was too over for the day going into that 12th hole. I want to know kind of from your catty perspective, that 12th hole, I think we can agree sets up pretty well for a left-handed player. In that, you know, for a right-hander, if you, you know, when you miss right, typically that means you miss short, whereas for a left-hander, if you miss right, that may mean you pulled it a little bit and you missed longer. What was Phil's strategy, or what is, I guess you could say, what is Phil's strategy on that hole?

Does he know that he has an advantage on the field with that back-right pin position? Well, I think he knows that Augusta National, this is my opinion. I certainly can't speak for him, but Augustine National is the greatest left-handed course ever. I think that's why Phil's done what he's done. you know, Phil's probably going to win that term again. Baba's got a good chance as anybody. Mike Rears won the tournament. There are several crucial T-shots there that are easier for lefties than they are for righties.

And you've hit the nail on the head. 12 is probably the prime example. Certainly to those right pins. You could get back to the T-shots on 10 and 13. It's much easier to hit a big slice off the T as a lefty on those dogleg lefts, especially on 13 than it is to hit a draw, right? So those shots are played in the lefties hands. But to your point, yeah, a guy like Phil is going to absolutely know that the way that green shape is on 12 is a better shape for him than it is for the righties in the field.

So had he, that birdie putt that he lined up from behind the hole, had he had that putt in prior years? I mean, he drained it, he fist pumped, and that's really the thing that kicked him off. And we've talked, I think, in the past about how, you know, you don't read putts at a, Augusta, you learned the breaks. Is that a put that he had experienced with and he knew exactly what the read was? Or what was the conversation like before that put? Yeah, absolutely. He said later on, he said, I'd missed that put high and I'd missed it low. So I absolutely knew the read. And, you know, certainly where it comes to Augusta National, I think part of the reason that Phil's had success there, you know, with three wins and tigers won as much as he had is because you're talking about

two guys with amazing memories. And, you know, they can recall a put from the 90s that did, you know, X, Y, Z. That's why I think Tigers won as many times at Bay Hill as he has and Torrey Pines as he has. And Phil in the same respect has, you know, multiple wins on, on, on a handful of courses because these guys remember things from past years and they apply them going forward. And, you know, if I was, you know, if I was a young player today that looked like I was about to play in the next 15 or 20 masters, I'd be riding absolutely everything down I possibly could because you know it's the one major that's going to go back there year after year. And so, yes, Phil had had that putt before. He'd missed it a couple of times. And I think he knew

when that thing was halfway there. It was going down. So he follows it with a two-putt birdie on 13 and then on 14. He almost jars it from the fairway. How well could you see the ball from the fairway? Do you remember trying to figure out if that ball was actually going in the hole? It was it was it was it was the crowd reaction it was a kind of a he had he had started hitting these three quarter shots earlier that year and and it was a three quarter nine yardage but it was the first shot we played that day where we were like okay let's start factoring adrenaline and so I remember you know the discussion went from being a three quarter nine to you know can we get wedged there and the coolest thing happened. And to that bird, it's that birdie pin on 14 that you see guys, you know, hit the ball so close to. And the thing about that hole is, yeah, you can hit it a foot there. But if you roll two or three yards past the hole and the ball gets hung up in the fringe, it's literally a put from 12 feet where you put with your back to the hole because it has this viciously crazy break.

And so we were having this discussion in the fair way about, you know, why we shouldn't hit the nine. And we started talking about the ball getting up up in the fringe. And we were playing with DeMarco and Chris DeMarco hits this shot right at the flag that releases a little hard that he wanted to. And it gets caught up in the back fringe. And we're like, yeah, like that. You know, so it was this kind of ball. We're like, okay, well, you know, the golfing gods are telling us something here.

We just talked about how this can happen. It happened to DeMarco. We made the adjustment, went down to wedge and he hit it to six inches. God, it's amazing memory. Do the shots not start to like blend together for you after all these years, as many times as you've been around that course? Never. We can do this when I'm 85 if you want. I think I'll still remember it.

Like Thursday through Sunday or do the Sunday ones are they that much more memorable? No, I think that you certainly, you know, Sunday of your first, you know, the first master's one that your player has, you know, is going to stand out. But it's crazy the stuff is a caddy that you remember. It's, it'll drive you nuts almost. So Phil, he shoots 31 on the back, but didn't birdie 15? Now, you guys get to 16. I'm not positive if you were trailing at this point, but you knew you needed at least one birdie coming in.

Take me through the shot on 16, knowing that his adrenaline on level has to be at just the maximum amount that it can be at. With that pin position, again, it's the same Sunday pin. What's your guy's approach to the T shot on 16 in that situation? Well, Phil, you know, it was a secret. for a bit and then Phil ended up kind of talking about it in an interview after the fact. But so, you know, he's a real student of the game and I'd like to think to a large degree I am too. And I had noticed if you go back over the years of these great little master's movies that come out that we have all watched on the golf channel and and elsewhere that show the recaps of the tournaments that there were guys on a number of occasions that hit shots on 16 that they just absolutely pose over.

and the ball comes down, you know, 25, 30 feet long. And they just seem shocked. And, you know, and when that happens to a tour player, you know, usually when they've hit something to five feet, they kind of know it when the ball is in the year. They have a feel for the yards. They hit the shot. They know how they hit it. And when something comes down, they're genuinely shocked. Well, you've got to kind of take note of that.

And I think it had happened to Davis one year. I think it had to Duval one year. and it might even have happened to Ernie that very day. I don't know. And so Phil and I had talked about it and about how, you know, we were kind of developing this theory there on 16 that no matter what the situation when you get, you know, in the hunt or when you get that master's adrenaline going, if you get between clubs, you go with the lesser club.

And even if you're not between clubs, it just plays a half club short. And it's a very unique piece of land, Chris. and I know you've been there. And when you're out there at the Masters, whether you're in 40th place on Thursday or whether or not you're leading on Sunday, there are thousands of people around that hole. And it's in something of a valley.

There's several thousand people left and behind the green and there's people right. And it's, I don't know what it is, but it's a very, very low point in the course. And we started wondering if maybe, you know, what was going on here with the topography and the number of people, maybe it was affecting the air in a sense that the ball was going to go further.

And I'm not trying to sound like some kind of scientist here. We're just trying to figure out why are guys hitting these shots that they pose over that are going long. And so Phil doesn't birdie 15. He now is one back and he needs to make one more to tie Ernie who's ahead of us. And we walked over to the 16th D and Phil says, let's plug it in. Let's go with the theory. And I can't off the top of my head remember the yards, but it was probably something like 186,

which is an absolute normal good in those days, seven iron. And he hit eight. And so we said, you know what, let's just hit the hard eight and take our chances here. And he ripped an eight. And we really didn't know at that point where it was coming down, but it came down 18 feet right under the hole, which is a great spot because you would literally,

and I'm not exaggerating here, you would rather have 18 feet short of the hole on 16 to that Sunday pin than have five feet behind it. It is anything behind that hole is the hardest, most maybe brutal putt in golf that I've ever seen. You can't make it and you'll see guys three putt from 10 feet there regularly. And so, you know, this ball came down 18 feet short. Sure enough, it had gone much, much further than we would have thought an 8 iron would go. And he made it. And it was a cool moment because, you know, there, he, he,

He's now tied to the leading the master's. I'm over there. You want to jump out of your skin, but you're trying to look as cool as you can. And he came over and he grabbed the putter end of the club, the club end of the putter, and it hit me really hard in the rear end with the putter grip and said, let's make one more. And it was a really cool moment. Of all my moments with Phil, it was probably kind of a top 10. So even though we didn't know at that point yet what the future held in terms of the next

couple of holes, for him to make that too, for the theory to work, and for him to say, say what he said. He didn't say it. The crowd was going bananas. He had to yell it in my ear, but it was a cool moment. And what do you remember about that putt, too? Is that just an experienced putt that you guys have had before and knew the, knew the break exactly? Yeah, I'm not reading any putts, you know, at Augusta, just again, back to, I mean, that's not true. I guess occasionally, if Phil gets something that he's just not sure of. But again, because of his memory, because the number of times he's played there, it's rare that I'm going to read a putt there. And so it was just a put that breaks quite a bit to the left at the end, and he made it right in the middle.

So coming up 18, you guys know you need birdie. I mean, in that situation, is Phil talkative? Does he make a joke? Does he say something? Do you to pump himself up? How does he handle that situation with you, or is it just like every other hole? Well, until I saw the coverage, the tournament coverage later on, I didn't really. realize because I guess I don't remember I was probably walking ahead of him because you again

you're you're so jacked up you want to get out there and triple check your yardage and start thinking about what you're going to say to your player you know when he says to you know what he like but he was smiling the whole way up I mean there he was tied to the lead in the master's he yet the longest three would you could ever hit it's like 288 yards and that that team that first fairway bunker and we were you know so driver really wasn't an option we were not going to put him in that sand. And, you know, he said, you know, can I get three woods that bunker? And we're like not in a million years. And he literally hit it a yard short of it. He was just so jacked up. And, and then, you know, we got out there and, you know, it's straight up the hill there. And it was like, you know, 172 playing, you know, 180.

And again, you're dealing with adrenaline. He's all fired up. We talked about it. It was just a perfect good, hard cut eight iron. And, you know, he hit this shot. And the thing about it is, you know, that ball, I'm so glad he flushed it as much as he did. Because, again, you're pulling clubs to try and make a three. He's not trying to make a four there. And that ball in terms of carrying the false front probably only carried it by a few feet. But again, fortunately, we got that just right. And it, you know, released to where it did behind the hole.

But he wasn't playing, you know, 20, 25 feet right like a lot of guys do. And a lot of guys have with success, O'Meara went on to make that. put to beat Fred in 98, but he took it right at the flag. It never left the pin. And then it got really interesting after that in terms of the read because of the DeMarco situation. Yeah, DeMarco hits his, his approach or chip right behind Phil's ball and gets, and Phil even cracks a smile and looks at him and knows he's going to get the perfect read. So was there anything major learned in that read, do you think? Or was that another situation where you kind of have a pretty good idea of how that put's going to break? No, that was a big learn there. I think.

the putt broke definitively more than Phil thought. And I think he said that on the, he's gone on the record saying that DeMarco's putt was incredibly instrumental in the win and what happened there on 18 Green because I think Phil had an idea what he was going to play it. He saw DeMarco's putt fall off the table to the left there and Phil adjusted and just snuck it in their left side there. So we all know what happens next. He makes the putt. You come running at him and just, and you say something in his ear. You can see it on the broadcast. You hug him and say something. Do you remember what you said? I think I said you did it. Okay. I think that after all that stuff and all the major stuff and, you know, how tough it was and how tough 2003 was for him, you know, to come out and win the first tournament of 2004. I remember one of the golf publications earlier that year had had put out their predictions as to where they thought, you know, players were going to finish that year on the money list. And I remember a big golf public. had fill it 31.

And the point was, this guy is not even going to the tour championship. And I thought to myself, boy, oh, boy. I said, I thought, that's, you know, that's pretty disrespectful in a sense. This guy's been a great player now for a number of years. And granted, he hasn't won a major yet, but he's certainly shown up and played well a lot and won a lot of tournaments for a guy his age. And I just, I remember running into the guy that week that wrote the article and just looking at him a little bit sideways and, you know, and then for Phil to go on there and win the

tournament and to establish himself, you know, you know, one of the great players in the game and going on to be one of the greatest that ever played the game was pretty cool. Yeah, I mean, that moment, I remember, I was in high school and I even understood, I think I understood the, the nature of that moment or how the, the brevity of that moment, I guess, because, I mean, it was, it was intense. And I still think rewatching it, the noise of that day in that back nine charge, I can't remember in my lifetime there being a louder one. Is that the case for you? Yeah, it was, it was incredible. It was, you know, almost make your ears ring. And my wife was beyond nine months pregnant. And I literally had to run home, you know, for the birth of my,

my first, our first child, our son, Oliver. And so there was a lot going on. And I will tell you, it was, Phil had a couple weeks off after that and didn't play again until New Orleans. So he goes in New Orleans. I don't think he even played a practice round, but he showed up. When you're playing in the pro-im on Wednesday, and Phil's an early pro-em guy typically, and so you're teeing off at 650, and you're out there, and there's a guy, you know, a couple of volunteers and the guy making the announcements, and that's about it. And you stand there, and the guy goes next on the tee, the 2004 master's champion, Phil Mickelson. And it was such a cool thing to hear, and something you've been aching to hear for some of years. Phil asked him if he

would say it again. And so Phil backed off his t-shirt. shot and got introduced twice at the next term we played out. So that was a cool moment. Oh, that's cool. So 2006, you guys, you come back, you come back to the golf course and it has changed pretty dramatically. They lengthened a bunch, I think, six holes. And what do you remember about the first time you guys saw it? Did you think this is an even better thing for us or did this hurt us a bit? Or what was your first thought when you saw the new golf course? Well, Phil had won the previous week by 13. So Atlanta was the week before. And I guess we had probably gone to a Augustin National before that, but we had heard some changes were going to be made. They were going to

put trees right on 11. They were going to lengthen the seventh hole and the other things they did. I guess 17 changed also. But it was shocking how hard it was, and especially the seventh hole. The seventh hole is, you know, a very, very small green from front to back, literally only maybe 10, that's not true. I'd say 12 to 15 paces. And I do remember one day and two, 2006 early in the tournament, Phil hit the fairway there, and we had five iron into the green. And we're used to hitting nine irons, wedges, sand wedges in there. And the course was playing so hard that we stood out there in the fairway. And Phil and I agreed that the only way to make par on the hole, I think was windy, tough conditions,

was we intentionally hit the ball over the green into the gallery to set up our angle on our third shot to get up and down for four. which he did. But it was, I mean, guys, it was, guys were like blown away by how hard it had gotten in a very short period of time. And it was like, oh, my gosh, this is a whole new era here. And I guess that was the Hootie Johnson era. And it was like, you know, batting down the hatches there because this place has just gotten really, really hard. And Phil won at seven under, I think, that year. And then the next year, Zach Johnson won at one over. I think that they were, you know, there was a lot of changes in that time period. And it, uh, I think there was, was that the year that was some weather because he finished the third round on that Sunday morning. Is that right?

There was definitely some weather. Yes. We had to finish some golf on Sunday morning. And then, you know, golf's a funny game. And my closest friend who's a caddy is Joe Lacava, who now caddies for Tiger Woods. But he caddied for years and years for Fred couples. And, you know, I just remember how that whole thing kind of lined up that week. And Fred is a great player who is, you know, unlucky, in my opinion, only to win one. masters and also very unlucky to be dealt the card that he was dealt in terms of his health and his back and whatnot. There's no telling what he might have done. And he played with a good back his entire career. But we got paired with him on Sunday. And it was, it was, you know, a beautiful,

beautiful Sunday in Augusta, you know, 70 degrees and sunny and virtually no wind. And it was a real cool experience to be out there for four or five hours with him. So there weren't a ton of fireworks on the front nine. Phil actually birdied seven on that Sunday. And, eight and then on 13 he pushed his drive a little do you guys do you remember the conversation between you two while the ball was in the air well if you pushed it it was probably get up you know please please lord i mean something like that go ahead you got something like that well i just watched it so you're yelling at it get out there get out there oh wow it's still in the air he goes i hit it like he he he wasn't worried about it cutting the corner but it's yeah it's so funny how he is he's

calming you down while the ball was in the air and how you thought it was potentially in trouble. So, yeah, so Phil hits a very pronounced slice there. And the ball probably only has to go about 240, 50 yards, you know, to get around the dog leg. But, you know, again, for a lefty like Bobbo or Phil, you're hitting such a pronounced slice that, yeah, it's easy to, you know, not that tough to hit a slice, but you got to make sure you cover your yards before the ball actually does start slicing. And so he makes Bertie there. It's in the fairway easily. And then he gets pin high on 15 into and chips up, actually lips out his chip. And he's got about a 10, 12 footer maybe for Bertie. He sinks it. And do you remember what he said to you or what happened to you after that put?

No, let me hear it. Well, I mean, he comes right up to you. He clearly, like, tries to get your attention and says great read. So was that a put that you chimed in on? Yeah, I mean, that's cool. I mean, that's cool to hear. Yeah, now that you say that, I do, I do kind of remember. It was funny, the previous hole, not just go backwards, but the previous hole threaded hit it to three feet on 14 and had three putted. And it had just kind of shook up the whole day because they had been going head to head and back and forth. And now it was Phil's tournament to win it felt like. And so I do remember, I do remember getting called in for the read there. Yeah. And the ball, I think, going a little to the right. Phil wanted some affirmation on the read. And I think it was

a left edge pot and he made it. Yeah. So now you go to 16 in a very different situation than in 04, you're leading by 4. Now, do you approach that T shot any differently? Do you try to play that shot safer? Because he ended up going right at the flag, but was that the intention? I think that was the intention because back in those days, you know, and of course this is the era when the course played its hardest, if you had that left pin on 16 and you hit it up on the right shoulder of the green up top, so to speak, you were going to have to have 10 or 15 feet for par.

That's kind of changed now, I think, with the softening of the course where you're able now to get that putt a little bit closer. But back then, it was almost a guaranteed three putt. And so I think Phil's, you know, take on that hole was, you know what, I got to take it right at it. And if you think about it, too, and he makes a very good point about this, it's a really tough hole, you know, as many great shots as there are for lefties there, 16 is not one of them because when a lefty tees up his ball in 16 waggles and looks at the hole every time they

look up to look up at the pin you see water but when a when a right he does it you see green grass so that whole visually kind of messes with your head as a left-hander and so i think phil's like you know what i've got to hit a shot here and i'm just going to take it right out of the last thing i want to do is hit a shot where i'm looking and end up having 45 feet for birdie so he goes on to win win in o six rather comfortably and then zooming ahead to 2010. You guys are one shot back going into the final round, but this year was just such a unique year for,

from Phil, from a family perspective, what was the lead up like going into that year with everything Phil had going on with Amy's cancer diagnosis? Well, it was difficult to say the least. It was, you know, golf wasn't obviously the most important thing by any stretch. And it was just a question of, you know, without getting into too much detail, taking care of the situation as much as I could and looking after, you know, making sure I was doing everything I could for Phil and, you know, just golf, it was

secondary, even though for Phil it was a release and a place to get away to from the other things he had going on in his life. And, you know, that was a remarkable week, you know, for so many reasons. Obviously, there was a lot going on. And if I'm not mistaken, you know, I think I may have said this to you at some point over dinner somewhere. You know, Phil played as bad as I've ever seen him play the week before in Houston. I think he made the cut, but it was just, it just wasn't there and he wasn't clicking. And there were a million reasons why he was, you know, he had a lot on his mind to say the least. And for him to go from that and from there to where he got to in 2010. And and, you know, was mind-boggling.

I mean, it was a real credit to him and his backbone that he was able to win that week. It's amazing to re-watch these three master's wins, you know, kind of consecutively. Like I just, I skipped around to some of the shots. But again, he takes it right over the flag on 12. He's got pretty much the same put. I'm assuming at this point, there's no conversation that needs to be had about that put. Gosh, no. Yeah.

All I need to do is make sure I clean the ball properly when he gives it to me and get the heck out of the way. So he buries it. It gets to 13, hits his drive in the pine straw. It's better than I remember the broadcast as far as them kind of getting quiet and letting the caddy and player conversation happen and the amount of the things that you guys went through. Was that a quick conversation between you and Phil regarding going for that green on 13? Or was that longer drawn out that maybe the cameras didn't catch? Yeah, it was, I guess what it was, Chris, was that, you know, normally you want, you know, Phil's a very technical guy and if he's got a question, certainly as a caddy, you're going to answer it. And people over the years have enjoyed, I think,

conversations between player and caddy and maybe between Phil and I that have gone on for, you know, 10 or 15 seconds or whatever. The weird thing about this was it took place over a lengthy period of time because we were waiting so long for the green to clear. And so when we got up there and Phil, you know, had this, you know, 206 yards that he had to the hole. We were waiting and waiting for K.J. Choi and whoever ever he was playing with to leave the green. And I think KJ was leading at that point. And so we got up there. I gave Phil the yardage. He had, when you go back and you look at it on TV, TV does no justice to how narrow the gap in the trees was. It looks fairly wide on television. But I can tell you.

that it was about as wide as the length of a dozen balls, a box of a dozen balls. So it was about that kind of width. And it was a lot of pine straw. And my biggest concern wasn't that Phil could fit it through the gap in a perfect world. It was that Phil would lose his footing and then hit one of the trees as a result. And so if the ball comes back and hits him or goes into the creek or goes into the gallery, whatever the case may be, excuse me, the patrons, you know, it's a bad, situation. But, you know, to Phil's credit, he's thinking about making something happen,

and that's part of what makes him great. So I gave him the yardage. He tells me I'm going for it in two. So, okay, I know that. Now, it's part of my job is, any caddy's job is, you know, sometimes when you talk to your player, you know, they're 100% in and sometimes they're 80% in. and it's not hard to judge, but sometimes you may kind of go back a little bit just to kind of see where they're at. And so I said to Phil, hey, you know, the previous day on Saturday,

he had made three straight, excuse me, two straight eagles, almost three on 13, 14, and 15. I just reminded him, you're the best wedge player in the game. If you lay this up, you're going to have a very routine up and down, you know, for four.

And he said, I'm going. Okay. So now I know he's 100% and that's great. So now again, we're waiting for the screen to clear. It seems like it's taking forever. And finally, KJ. Choi puts and he misses a six-footer that we assume is for Bertie, but it turns out was for par, I believe.

And we hear this murmur in the crowd. I turn to the cameraman right behind us and say, what's up? He goes, I believe he said, KJ just made six. You guys are now tied for the lead. So all I'm going to do now is Phil's a big scoreboard watcher. It's my job, I think, at this point to say to him, hey, does the fact that you're leading now change the way you want to play this hole?

And he looks at me and he says, listen, if I'm going to win this tournament today, I'm going to have to hit a great shot under a lot of pressure. I'm going to do it right now. And that is like the ultimate, get the F out of the way to your caddy. You know what I mean? That is, I've got it. You like Six Iron.

I like Six Iron. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to do this thing. I've now said what I need to say and I get out of there as quickly as I possibly can and he hits the most famous shot of his career. So it was an incredible kind of, geez, it was probably three or four minutes

that felt like half an hour. I'll never forgive him for missing the putt. I can't watch the shot now because knowing that he misses the put. So go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah, it's funny. As you know, from being around there,

there are fountains and bridges that have been dedicated to, you know, the Hogan's and the necklaces and the Palmer's and stuff like that. And I always wondered to myself if he had made that pot, you know, would it increase the chance that Phil might get his own little monument out there at some point, given his success in the tournament? But you never know. I remember attending in 2012 and they had a little white little pin flag there from the exact spot that he had hit it at. So I would think at some point they've at least got that spot marked if there's ever going to be a plaque that goes in there. So you guys get to 15.

You guys have a pretty extensive conversation over that shot. What do you remember about that conversation? I just remember that we, the adrenaline was going crazy and that we, that he hit a shot that made absolutely no sense that you could get the smartest man in the world and teach him all about yardages and adrenaline and this and that. And you could never, you could never quantify the fact that he had. 196 yards or whatever it was he had and hit eight iron. And it was basically a maybe a comfortable six, hard seven yardage. But it was it was those days that you get in Augusta in April on Sunday.

It's 72 degrees. It's dry as can be. There's not a cloud in the sky. It's sunny. And these guys are compressing the ball. And, you know, Phil's not a guy, even with a lead. in that tournament where, you know, if he hits a shot and it ends up two yards over that green, even though that's, you know, he's going to make four there nine times out of ten. That's not what he wants. He wants to hit a shot and, you know, and be rewarded for it. And over the green there to him is not a reward. So he wanted to play at that hole.

And he, I would like, you know, I know this is crazy. I think it's a tomahawk eight iron. And he agreed and he tomahawked it to ten feet. need exactly pin high if I remember correctly. And I just remember walking down there, shaking my head going, my goodness gracious, that that's one of the, if not the craziest club selection we've ever had. Well, I love that too, that conversation because before he goes to hit it, it shows his trust in you. He says, if it starts to hurt, because you're talking about the wind, if it starts to hurt, let me know. And you, you, before he went to go hit it, you said, come on, let it go.

It sounded like you were kind of, he was maybe a bit wavering on the club choice and you really wanted to commit to it? Is that good interpretation? I think what I was probably saying is you can't hit this hard enough kind of thing. If I said let it go, I was probably saying we need every inch of this eight iron, knowing that if he hits it a quarter inch out on the toe, you know, a groove low, you know, this thing's not only going to go in the water, it's not even going to be close. But the thing about great players like Phil, Tiger, Fred in his day, all these guys that could that were are really long hitters is they rarely rarely miss hit the ball especially under pressure i mean you know that may sound like okay but you know p j tor pros they'll miss hit shots

they'll hit a little heavy they'll hit a little thin but but i remember phil in his prime and probably still to this day he could literally he would literally miss hit five shots a year everything else was just flush right in the mouth and i was just basically saying to him there, you know, you've got a tomahawk this to get it there. Miss hit five shots a year. That might be the best thing I've ever heard. That walk coming up 18, what do you remember about that? Just kind of, you know, heaven on earth in a sense. It's just the greatest feeling in the world. And I think Phil drove it in the right rough there, I think, and had a little root issue and whatnot. And, you know, you're, you know, he was still going to win,

but I remember you're still kind of grinding your butt off and you're doing everything you can. But it's just surreal. And then of course, I think there was some debate that day. Well, not debate, but there was no way of knowing whether or not his wife was going to come out to be there. And I remember that she was there. And so as was my wife with her.

And so that, you know, your player is going to win the masters. It's an honor to be out there. It's just the greatest privilege in the world. to caddy at that vent, let alone have your player, you know, be fortunate enough to win it, and then to look back there with all they had going on, and to see that was pretty mind-blowing. So Phil knew she was there next to the green? I think he saw her play on the green there. You have a chance to look around a little bit with the lead he had, and she was there by the scoring area that used to be behind 18 green.

Did that win feel like the most significant of the three? I'm sure it did. Again, I can't speak for Phil. I'm sure it did for Phil. I mean, I tell people a lot when they ask, you know, when Phil won his first, first master's in 2004, it was a relief. It was great, but it was a relief. I mean, it was you're never going to have to answer that question again. I'm sure maybe Sergio might say the same thing if he goes on to have, you know, win multiple majors.

I mean, it's great and it's an incredible experience, but it's just so nice that you're never going to have to answer that question again. and that every single tournament that Phil goes to for the rest of his life, whether you're Phil or Sergio or Tiger Woods, there's going to be little kids out there with yellow master's flags asking you to sign him. And it's just a reminder that, you know, what you've been able to accomplish. And it's a great, great feeling. But, you know, the third one was probably more significant than the first in some ways,

I think, to your point. So the 2012 Masters is the most recent of the one that got away. Is it, was it any easier to stomach that one when you've already won three of them? No, probably not. You want to win every single one of them. Golf's funny like that. You know, I remember telling, you know, when Phil won his open championship in 2013, I remember, you know, Phil played in Akron his next event and finished, let's say, 20th.

And I remember we were coming down the stretch and we were grinding like crazy to finish 20. at the very next event after what I thought was the biggest win of his career. And so it's just funny, you know, how something amazing can happen in golf. And you just want more and more. And certainly not winning in 2012. Certainly then he'd won three of them, but you want to win every single one.