No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1162: The Mental Side of Golf with Julie Elion

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

Soly visits with golf psychologist Julie Elion for a firsthand look at the methods and techniques she’s used with numerous touring pros to improve their mental approach to golf. Support our Sponsors: Titleist Rhoback Yeti If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Langa podcast. Sali here.

Got a conversation coming shortly here with mental golf expert, mental expert in general, Julie Elion. You undoubtedly know the name, recognize her probably from the Netflix series, full swing. She's worked with Max Homa. She's worked with Wyndham Clark. She's worked with John. Justin Thomas, Phil Mickelson in the past has a lot of great examples from her experience.

And we talk a lot about that. She loved the idea. And I, of course, did too. Any chance I could get to improve my own mental approach of kind of flipping it on me and giving us, giving the listeners a little bit of an example of what a counseling session would look like with her. So she kind of tried to break me down to the studs, my approach to golf and trying to get a little bit better. We could all try to get a little better with our mental game and it gives me specific things. I kind of actually do them, right?

It is a little bit of homework that came with it, as you'll see. And I need to have, I haven't been great since we've done it. But I promise I will get to work on this stuff, Julie. It was great. Just fun diving into the mental game as well. But another key to playing your best golf is going to be making sure you've got the right golf ball and club setup for your game. Titleist gives golfers several ways to find the right ball model, including their fitting app, which uses launch monitor data to make an informed recommendations in just a few swings with a certified fitter.

On the club side, if you're investing in new equipment, you've got to get it right. so much to dial in between the head models, a hazel, the weight settings, the lofts, the lies, the wedge grinds, the yardage gaping. It's just completely unrealistic to go at it alone and get results. I just got fit with the new GTS. I'm like, there's like 16 different head configurations. There's all these weight things you can move around. It would take me weeks, months to do all that configuring for myself and actually get to the

right answer there. But you get to a master fitter. They know exactly what to look for. The ball starts going left. Here's what we're going to do to this thing. And sure enough, just keep making the same golf swings. The ball started doing exactly what I wanted to do by the end of the session. It took less than an hour and I've got a new GTS driver on the way.

It's incredible. Simple message. Go get fit. Check out the fitting locator at tidalus.com to find one near you. Let's get to our conversation with Julie Elion. What's the process like for writing a book for you? Have you ever written? Is this a first time writing a book?

I thought we were going to start with your process. We can get to my process. You already avoided your process. I feel bad. Take it up your valuable tie with my process. It's not important. Favorite thing to do is to look into somebody and help them out or just hold up a mirror. And you and I already started with that one nanny down and life and you're trying to squeeze it in.

And I think that's a perfect place to start. Well, let's let's start there. I'm afraid to hold up a mirror to myself. But as someone that has a fair amount of their golf on the internet, competitive golf on the internet, I feel like in some way our audience has somewhat of a relationship or understanding of my golf journey or whatever that might be. But do you work with many people that are not professional golfers that want to improve their golf game? If they can afford it. Yeah.

But also, that's a terrible thing to say because there's a lot of access to what I believe in and my work and my book is about to come out. but, you know, all truth told, I actually looked through some of your rounds. Like, this morning I was looking at Park and just not looking at your swing. I was more looking at how you held yourself and how you were speaking with yourself. Now, that's not necessarily real golf because you were on camera. But that's kind of what I do. That's how I start is like observing, observing. Yeah. Well, I'll say some things that I think will immediately trigger a response for you there. But like that, that round of that round of golf is on camera. And I decidedly play worse golf when I play on camera. That sounds like a convenient excuse for those. But like those are rounds that I would like to play better. Like for instance, at Media Day this past week at Shinnecock, I was not on camera. Neil was. I shot a 73 that could have been 68 quite easily. And I think if if I was getting filmed, I think it would have been.

and there's got to be something to that. What is that? Let's go. What is that? I mean, that's what I just said. I was watching you at the park and I thought, well, he's on camera. This is not a normal situation. So, and then the guys and gals on tour deal with that a lot.

But how does it change you? Like, what are you aware of? I had a very brief period of time in say 2020 and 2021 when I was practicing and playing a lot where when I got, I've always associated golf and competitive golf with the more I've wanted it, the worse it has gone. I mean, just high school golf, the rounds that were the most important to me. I did all the wrong things, gripped it tight, and shot higher scores. And there was a time period. I read Pia and Lynn's book, Be a Player back in 2019 into 2020. And I was like, I got mental golf solved. This is an incredible thing.

But I got it. We're totally fine here. And I played excellent golf in tournaments and on camera. And in a lot of places, I reached a level of play that I never thought I would. And I guess I was surprised with what I felt like I had solved the mental side of golf or I understood it. And I could read back to you everything I learned in that book. But a lot of those lessons didn't stick with me the way that I thought they would or should. And negative thoughts crept back in. And I've had trouble getting, you know, getting, getting, getting,

I think I'm better than I was. I kind of bottomed out at one point. I'm kind of back in the middle there. But there's got to be something to the fact that, and this is the same for everybody, when they want to play their best golf oftentimes is it goes the opposite direction. That's right. But hasn't life happened to you? Don't you have three children?

And you've got a big job and right? I mean, so, but it's also like a muscle. You got to keep practicing or your wed shots. Your body's changed. your mind's changed. So what P and Lynn taught you back then, you either got to keep diving in again or practicing something new

because I think we can lose it. Yeah, I think when I first started getting, first had our first kid and I struggled with what my relationship with golf was going to be. Like it was just a, I've got, I have a busy job and being a dad and a husband is a full-time job and kind of had a foot in a couple camps, whereas now that I've got three, It's like I it's very easy for me to separate it out and say, look, golf and practice is not a priority.

I don't think that's a secret or so. I played a little bit better actually recently just because I've, I've let go of my feeling like I need to be in tournament form all the time. Well, that's great. Lower your expectations. What if I was if, and I get I can't pinpoint when this happened for me. But there was a time at some point in the last maybe three years when I got over a shot in a tournament situation. I was picturing the ways that it could go wrong. And if you'd put me in there, no better example than I played the city amateur tournament

at Tim Aquana last summer, which is my home course. I played that course. Like thousands of times. And I know all the shots and I shot 8484 in that tournament. And that was like, that was an aha moment to me of like, dude, this is your golf horse. You can't like, why, how are you treating tournament golf so differently than normal if you're holding the mirror up to me there, what would I be seeing? I'm good, but I'm not that good.

So you got to give me a little more, like who was around you. Just give me a little more of the info. Nobody was around me. No cameras. This was when? Last summer. Last summer. Okay.

So you had two kids. Three kids, yeah. Three kids. Okay. And was it? this a tournament round? It was a tournament round? The city amort. Two rounds. Yeah. Okay. So you went in thinking what you are going to what? I went in thinking I, you know, I'm not tournament shape, but I know this golf course. And, you know, I'm not going to put pressure on myself because I haven't really

practiced. I can kind of wing it. You know, I, you know, I put pressure on myself in terms. When I have prepared, when I have practiced and like, this would be a great, you know, just go out and play. And I will say, like, I think I play my best competitive golf at a level that I call member guest competition, not scorecard in hand rules officials roaming out there. It's like, it's competition, but it's a little bit lighter. My game can elevate. I hear that with the PJ tour guys, like pro-am golf. Like, it matters, but I've got to be nice to my pro-am partners. But I'm, so I know what you're talking about.

And so I was, again, I'm trying to channel that of like, man, if it was our member guest right now, I'd be out having so much fun and I would be trying to show off. Like, you know, I've been trying to access all of the great parts of my game. And I know this, but I know this when I go into it. I should have that attitude when I go play tournament golf, but I can't, I have not been able to put that into the same practice anymore to the point where it's like, I'm not interested in playing tournaments anymore. Because I just, I don't have the time to put in to practice. can't skip the mental part of the process. So I guess where I would start with you is I'm all about getting honest and real. So if we had been working that the week before, we would have talked like this.

We said, what are your expectations? Is it just for fun? Like what do you saying to yourself when you're falling asleep at night? Like, God, I'd love to win. Oh, I just want to show up. So it's like peeling an onion of what Solly's taking into this tournament. And then if there's some expectations, we might write them down. I also love to do something called brain drain, which is the night before, a couple hours before,

free-form writing, whatever is on your brain. You might not have a nanny tomorrow. You forgot to put air in the tire. you have to call the dentist, like literally drain your brain and then come up with two to three mental goals for the round that you might repeat like mantras, you might say it 100 times, that will point your consciousness to how you want to play. Now, if it's just fun, then those mantras could be like, let it go, let it rip, you know. So I don't have a form of for everyone's listening to this.

But as I get to know you and more importantly, you get to know you, you work with your, if you really want to get better, you work with yourself mentally because the fact is your swing will always be in process. I have heard maybe never in a 25-year career, maybe three, four times. Everything feels perfect. Like I just can't even, I can think of one guy, actually.

And I play the harp, the harp. I actually play like Celtic jazz harp. And there's so many strings that there's a joke that once you start tuning the top string, by the time you get to the bottom, you have to retune again. And I think of the golf swing like that. So that's in process. But if you can make your mind the still common denominator part of your round, I think I hope and often true results do come better.

And I think if I was, if I was being honestly at this point in my golf life, again, the tournament golf isn't a priority, but I still want I want to play good golf when I play golf like everybody does. I want to get, I want to get better at golf. Yet a lot of the golf we play, like tournament golf is a one-of-a-kind situation where you can shut everybody out, not talk, not be social, and focus on that. When you go play with your buddies or when you go play a team game of some kind, that's the worst kind of guy to play with that takes it too seriously and whatnot.

But how would you, I guess, would your questions about how I think about things change if I'm talking about that scenario more? Because that's probably 80% of the golf I play, you know, is more than that. Or buddies. Buddies. Buddies. Buddies. And, you know, even on camera.

or work-related golf, I think kind of falls more into that category as well. So, and what do you want to get out of that? You kind of just said it, like, just have fun, right? Right? Yeah, I want to have fun, but I have found I have fun when I am in a race against the golf course of like, I want to see what I can do here, you know, and that's a, even saying that part out loud, I'm like, again, I almost, I feel like I'm talking to the mirror here. I say that of like, well, that's what you should do in tournament golf instead of thinking about the ways you could screw up.

But I get so much out of the challenge and not even always passing the challenge, but feeling somewhat prepared for the challenge of a shot and giving it a really good effort and feeling like I sprinted through the finish line. Even if I didn't win the race, it was like, dude, I got I got all the experience out of the shots. It doesn't have to be the lowest score, but man, I was kind of in pursuit of that low score today. and I gave it a really good effort and I played with a ton of confidence. That's how I felt on this past Tuesday of like, man, I kind of went through the line here. Now I played golf the week before over in England and I just withered and just kind of, you know. Yeah. So I just want to clarify something.

So the rounds with your buddies, you still, of course, want to play well, but there's kind of a different feeling inside than when you're playing a tournament round. That matters, correct? Definitely. Or the one in the England, what was that? Just, we were filming and we were playing matches. And, you know, and it was a, I kind of felt a little like I have felt when I get into match play. And I think I could give myself, I don't even know if I need your advice on this because I know it as I say it.

But that's the whole point. I know. I start playing the other guy. I'm worried about what he's doing. And I'm not playing my round of golf. And then in a different match that week, I kind of didn't care about the result. nearly as much. And I won the match and didn't realize it. I pulled that Anthony Kim at the rider cup and I kind of felt bad after, but I was in my own world, just trying to shoot the lowest

score I could. You just answered your own question. I know. You don't need me. But I feel like I'm at like the 500 level though of like I know the things, but why am I not putting them into practice well enough? Well, I think you should make a decision, not should, choose to make a decision that this is an area in life. Even with all that's going on, you actually want to get better. You do. I'm hearing that. So take it seriously, just like you would practice putting or whatever, like spend 15 minutes a day.

I'd rather 30 minutes on this dynamic mentally. Like write it down what you're actually feeling. You said something really interesting. you said something about, I think you said beating the golf course. You said something like that. I actually think that's a great way to get through some of these events on camera, not. Like the golf course is there to try to mess you up and trick you. So that's a really good way for a lot of players to look at it, like not get ruffled by who they're playing with or scores or any of that.

and go like, I'm going to beat the golf course. So just an FYI, that kind of takes you out of part of your brain and gets you into your competitive spirit. And it also allows you to focus on what you need to do rather than what you don't want to do. I mean, you still might say, I really don't want to go on the trap on the left. But if you're really trying to beat the golf course, you can kind of see it that way. That is a helpful way to get around in a positive way. And I've spoken with a gentleman by the name, John Schramm's, his name,

he's a performance coach. And he, you know, we've done a couple of these sessions as well. And I've sought help from a lot of places. But he has identified something. Why don't you stick with one of us? If I had the time, I would. But no, he's been really helpful. One of the things he helped me identify,

which I like completely agreed with, was, and I forget the exact way he described it, was something about, like, I'm a spark plug golfer, meaning like, all I kind of need is a little bit of a spark, a little bit of a feel in my swing, and then I get into a mode of like, oh, I can play these last 12-3-under, totally. And I'm not very good at getting off the bus, is how I would call it, of, like, I don't, I don't start whole one with the same confidence that I'll reach sometimes by whole six. And my- Is it result-based?

like if you're seeing the results then that's easier which is it can be but i would say i rarely finish a round with less confidence and belief than i had at the beginning like usually even if i'm playing poorly i in my head i'm like i can snap out of this i could okay i could play these last nine and three under i could i could i could do that even if i've had a bad start i've gotten better at least at that of like if it starts poorly i can almost you know i call it puke and rally like I threw out, now I feel better. We could play better from here on out, but I guess I'd struggle with trying to find that spark plug from whole one sometimes.

So what I would say about that, let's just do it now. When's your next round? What's your next round of golf? We're leaving to go film Torres Sauce here shortly after the publishing of this episode. So playing golf on camera in competition. Okay. About as important of golf as I'm going to play here coming up soon. pressure's on. Okay, on me. Okay. Also, but that's me putting pressure on myself that I don't need

to be doing because it's just golf with your buddies at the same time as I say it. Exactly. And you just say it's like the biggest, you're already building it up, right? So, but for the sake of this conversation, and I don't know you that well. Like we know each other for a while. I watch some things, but I can already tell some things. So I'm going to say to you, what are your, your, your best three mental qualities when you're playing your best golf. Best three are when when I'm playing my best golf, I view if I have eight holes left, I'm like, darn, I wish there were 11 so I could make eight birdies.

Like when I am playing my best golf, my self-belief goes very high. And I've had several rounds of golf where I am like finishing completely through the line and I'm birding four of the last five, you know and it's just like man i got to go play nine more like let's go so fun and and it almost never happens when i'm even through 13 but it okay so you're saying it's related to the result so if you're starting out around and you're even or over that self-belief doesn't kick in is that what you're saying or it kick it it can because i can get to several over and almost feel a relief

a release of like, um, oh, right. Puk and roll or whatever you can rally. You can roll. That's disgusting. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it does it. I guess like if I'm, if I'm like two under par through 12 holes, I'm probably not in, you know, I'm playing well, but, you know, sometimes maybe like 20% of the time that I ever in a situation like that, I am like, oh, we can get to five here pretty easily. Whereas, you know, if I'm, two over and I've made two birdies, I am like, oh, let's get three more. We can get to under par. Like, that'd be great. If I shot 71 today, that is an awesome day and I will be smiling in the clubhouse. So you really do have belief in your toolbox. Yes. Okay. And do you, can you,

do you tee it up regardless of anything? Is there a way that you can tee up your first shot feeling that regardless? I have before, but it is, it is rare. I have that when I have some connectivity with how much I'm playing and practicing, just in like, I have hit, well, like, when I got to the third round of our England trip, I was like, this is the third day in a row I've played. I remember how the club feels. There's no gaps in any of this.

There's some muscle memory. And like, I feel like I could go do this today, you know? Okay. Hit a good first T shot, good approach shot in the first green. And I was like, I've got to feel. now I'm playing reactive golf and we got it. So let me ask you, you're going to go on a ride with me here. So if I say to you, are you a good husband?

Are you a good son? Just answer. Don't think about it too much. I think I'm a plus five husband and dad right now. I'm probably about a five handicapped son right now. I'm realizing having young kids, I don't call my parents nearly as much as I should. But I'm focused at home. I am focused and that is very important to me.

We are in the sweet spot here. Okay. Because I want you to look at it like it's not based on results. Are you a good guy? Are you trying your best? Are you trying to juggle a million things? Are you trying to be sweet at home and good with those kids and, you know, professional at work?

My guess is yes. And I really want you to, it sounds like woo-woo, but I really believe that's where it needs to start. Like this kind of, this self-belief that's not based on what you did yesterday or how you're doing Family Day on Mother's Day. It's based on, are you, Sali, a good guy? And I will not bridge this to golf. But are you doing the best you can? Yes, I'm trying very, very, very hard every single day. Okay.

So if we add a brain drain and then you tee it up, walking in, the alarm goes off, walking into that first tee shot, like, you know what, I've got everything in my toolbox. This is a good day. And the common denominator is me. And I'm working hard. just starting there is just a great way to look at it, okay? Because we don't want you to tee up with a deficit of feeling lack or you're burdened. If this is supposed to be fun, we really want you to go out there and feel like, I can already tell how competitive you are, but we want you to have that competitive joy,

like let's go kill it joy. So, but that starts with you and not based. on any result, but you, to me, want to continue to work on that feeling for yourself on and off the golf course. Does that make sense? It does. And that's gotten better as we've gotten a little farther along in the baby phase of like the first six months of three under two was what it sounds like. But, you know, I'm getting, yeah, it will go worse. Well, because golf became a thing that was impossible for me to do without feeling guilt in some way, you know, of between work. I mean, the parenting side was taken up more time than it, I didn't have enough time to get my work done

and stay ahead of the game, much less like enjoy golf and play golf. So, but my relationship with the game is now going to be like this. Like the kids are going to be around. And that's, that's, so that's where I've first year of being a dad, I did not, I struggled, like I said, with like kind of on foot in both camps. And now I feel more clarity, at least, of like, golf is not going to be the most important thing in my life. I still, it will probably increase as time goes along. And the, you know, the parenting quote gets easier, which I know that never gets easy,

but the time commitments will likely change over the coming years. But it. Well, but one thing I want to say is when you're off on the golf course, like, be present. This is, this is where you're supposed to be. So you don't have one foot back there and one foot there. As long as it's like arranged with your family, this is where you're supposed to be. So give that time to yourself. Don't keep looking like did I make the right decision.

Because if you're one toe out the door, that's reflected to me in your commitment or your choices or you're rushing or your irritation. But be there and let it be your sanctuary because you've got now four, four. and a half, five hours to do something you love. So be present. Yeah. So number one, we've already gone to carry that self-belief just because you have it. Number two, be where your feet are. Like when you're home, same.

Yeah. And we'll get to three. I don't know where three is yet. Yeah. Well, I do say, I do say if you really want to improve in your golf game and at home, by the way, like, pick a couple skill sets that you really feel like you need to improve on and practice. Yeah. Or don't care, or just don't care. I live very close to a golf course now. And after kids go down, I go and chip and putt and hit wedges and things like

that. And just just holding a golf club and hitting, even just practicing chipping, I think, has helped my golf swing of just being familiar with the club. It's been kind of surprising for me in that regard. Right. That's great. That's great. The only way I was able to learn to play golf whenever the fact that was when I had little kids is we belonged to a golf course that had babysitting. I could only do it for nine holes, but, you know, my husband, avid player, that he physician, but played a lot of golf, but I wanted to learn how play golf. And that was the way we did it. So, but you finding the range or where you are right near you live, that's like what you do. But I would like, that's what I'm saying, like, own it and be there. Like,

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Back to the pod. I'm asking this actually a little bit selfishly, even though this might be a little bit of a detour from honing in on me here. But it's easy for me with my golf skill is not my profession. Like if I shoot 85 or 75, I don't make money off of this. You work with a lot of people that their golf skill is their profession. What's that like working with people? Like finding that balance in life amongst the people you work with. And I know you don't necessarily want to use specific examples by names in certain situations.

But is part of what you do trying to figure out what kind of a role golf plays in professional golfers' lives? and how they approach it and find their balance as well. I'm just kind of curious to pick your brain on that. For sure, because I guess most of my clients, I have to think about this, I have to look at it, but probably pre-marriage pre-children we might start. I probably work with most of my clients three to five to seven years. I mean, some are six months, some are months,

but in general. So I often see them through this. stage of life, okay? And you know, there's jokes on tour all the time like, oh, he's going down, you know, like they'll never get this together, that kind of thing. Definitely won't name names. But the real professional dedicated players, men and women, figure this one out, just like any other profession, you know, you're married to a brain surgeon and, you know, you're married to a brain surgeon, and, you know, they get called off and they're not home until one in the morning. I mean, it's not just athletes, but it takes a lot of communication in your world

to have the optimum result and takes a lot of communication between your partner. Like, this is really important to me. So how to balance all that. And I can't think of anything better than figuring out how to talk about it. honestly, non-judgmentally, and like being best friends, like, okay, these are some of the things are really important to me. So you got to work on it. How one of the things that, you know, and I've not got the sense that this is, I don't want to say an area of expertise, but an emphasis point for you, but one of the things that I've found

to be the most interesting in learning about mental kind of approach to golf is the relationship between the brain and the body and how it, how it performs. A line that always has stuck out to me in general has just been like you can't, like Tiger Woods can't control his. Peak Tiger Woods was not controlling his golf swing through, you know, like telling his body what to do. There's left and right brain elements of reacting and reaching a state that you can reach

only from the right side of your brain versus the left side of your brain. I'm curious if you have any input on that and how, you know, are you helping guys visualize, shots in a certain way and reach a certain mental state before they pull the trigger on taking the club back. So I'm not a neuroscientist. I read a lot about it. My niche here is what you're holding in your mind, your consciousness, your thoughts in a pre-shot right over the shot and making sure your image of what you want to do instead, like where

you want to hit it versus where you don't want to hit it. I like a lot of pre-shots to be the same amount of time. So we get into a ritual, I call it like comfort food. Like you know you're going to walk into that shot with the same time, the same thinking, the same swing thought, the same technical thought, very simple, not a lot. And so as much as you can, your mind and body do up. Now, like I said, I'm not a scientist on that. But, you know, the idea of like when we're throwing a ball with our kid in the backyard and we're just throwing a baseball, it's not a lot of thought to how to what arc and how to do it so they can catch it. So there is some way that our instinct needs to be available with, so not overthinking it. And the body,

you know, we, the body responds to the thoughts we're having in our head, and our thoughts can respond to our body. So it's more like working in sync with each other. And I'm not talking left and right brain. I'm just talking about being in sync, really, and not overthinking it and not getting over technical. I mean, was it Jack or Butch or both or whoever or myself? Like play with what you got, swing-wise that day. Actually, play with what you got in your mind that way. But if you can use these kind of tips we're talking about mentally, I do believe you can, like you said, sometimes you can get into this higher level of focus or competition. I do believe if you're self-aware, you can actually get there way faster than you can fix your golf swing. And we really don't

why you fixing your ball swing out there. So, but you can work with your mind. And maybe a little bit of a chicken and egg thing here about working with your mind here, but are you, I imagine your goal is going to be for a player to be able, you know, when their mind starts to want her to be able to self, you know, self-diagnose and flip the, flip things back on. I guess is that a two-step process, right, of getting somebody's mind right in the first place and then secondly, having it to the point where they don't need to come run to you

every time something goes wrong? 100%. I mean, first of all, the pros can't call me out there. I do a lot of working with the caddies. They write a lot down on their books to remind themselves. But just this morning, I was helping someone a couple hours before they were about to tee off. and she wrote just three bullet points. First of all, I don't like, I'm trying to take bullet and trigger out of my,

anyway, she wrote three points that like, go back to this, go back to this, if I'm overthinking or I'm upset or my playing partner's too slow. So my whole thing is get to know yourself. Because if your plane partner's like rattling you, it's on you to bring yourself back to neutral. Like that's no excuse. So it's like practicing how to get back to your best performance state. And I like people to work off the course to how to like, oh my God, the word meditation has gone too far. But some way to learn how to bring yourself back to your best.

performance state. Now, I work with some guys that, like, their best performance state is pissed as hell. Okay? So we work on being pissed as hell, right? So it just, it's really getting to know yourself, but absolutely this is, I, my belief is I'm a coach for a certain of my years, but I'm hoping to teach you how to go do this for yourself. But it takes training. It's like, And it takes digging deep, which is a theme for me and in my book, like, this is not fluff. And it's hard work. It's a lot of work. But one of my favorite quotes is Socrates, unexamined life is not worth living.

So I'm a real believer, like, why not really get to know what makes you tick? and it could be something really old, it could be child, it could be coaches, it could be, it could be now, it could be relationships, it's perspective. Like yesterday I was driving, I was late for something, and I swore, I swore, I was getting every red light because I was late. Was I really getting every red light? Probably not. But my perspective was that, and then I was getting stressed and then-a-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. So, and it's not going to help me get there any faster. It's only going to ruin my internal moment. So learning how to wind that back.

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But two people, I know one is a good friend of ours. Max Holman, Wyndham Clark are two people that you're known to have worked with here in recent years and have praised you among some success they've had. But we've seen both of them kind of Max has had a dip in his game. We've seen kind of some frustrations, of course, from Wyndham Clark publicly. And Max is, you know, we can use Max as an example because he's a good friend of ours. But, you know, he was throwing a club in Hilton Hill. head as well. When, when, when this happens, so you have a, you, you work him to somebody, you have,

like clearly have a breakthrough in some way. And he's just constantly referring to things that he, you have given him that he keeps top of mind and is using in competitive situations. And when you, I don't want to say you have gone off the deep. And when, when, when some things reappear, do you find yourself going to new lessons or new ways to get through to this person? Or is it typically going back to what worked at one time with them. It's a great question. I mean, I guess I truly believe you've got to keep digging deeper. So if we get, so let's say we're climbing Everest and you're climbing Everest and you

two steps forward and then you slip back 30 yards and then you have to rest because there's no oxygen. And so it's like this process. And I don't mean results or world ranking or fetters. though I could, I mean where you want to be mentally. And I do think what happens, we get these light bulbs and something clicks and often if I'm right there, they think it has something to do with me.

But really as we start this conversation, I'm holding up a mirror. So many, many of us, most of us, really know what's going on inside. side, but we can get jumbled with it. So this idea of repeating a mantra or a goal through a round of golf, like I remember one round with Max. I think it was Tori. I think it was Saturday. I think he won. I think wasn't Tori. We had a, we won on Saturdays for, there wasn't Sunday. I don't It was a Saturday finish when he went up against the NFC and AFC championships.

That's right. That's right. And I think he won that year. Anyway, I remember just one of these rounds. Like it was just his commitment was all mental and attitude and how he felt not technical, not anything, but I am going to be the best mentally I've ever been. that meant to him. And I've seen that happen and then I've seen people slip. You know, progress isn't always in a straight line. So when somebody starts to fall off the wagon,

as they say, to me it's just like, okay, what's going on? And now I need to work and work harder and work on the right things or different things. But, you know, life is school and I got to go back to class. How do, you know, do you experience, I guess, player, you know, we have a breakthrough with a player. Do you ever experience them kind of almost using you as, as too much of a crutch? And, you know, how do you, how do you balance that, like relationship with wanting to give them their own, the tools to access these things on their own? Such an interesting question, because yesterday, I was just talking about Jimmy Walker winning at Baltistral. And I think, I might be wrong, but I think we had only been working six weeks.

And I remember his first text to me, I remember seeing him at Oakman and we like caught eyes and we didn't know each other. And then maybe a month later, I got a text like, do you work just with golf or with life or with golf? And I said, both. So thus began our relationship. And, And I walked every hole and we had breakfast every morning at Belta Stras, the year he won. And it was like, I remember jumping into my husband's arms, like making him confirm to me. Did he actually just win? Like, because everyone was taller and it was so exciting, so exciting for me. It was the white, like, oh, my God, this stuff works.

Like, oh, I mean, I have been doing it 20 years. But it really wasn't me. It was him having the courage and the energy and the insight that he wanted to get better and found somebody, you know, there's plenty of my colleagues that are great at what they do. They're amazing, amazing, but probably much more performance oriented and maybe don't look at the whole person as much as I do, but I really believe that. So, and I think you've just got to keep working if you want it. So it's not me. I mean, I think I've learned, I think I'm really good at what I do and I'm the best job ever and I love what I do. But my real goal is to hand it back to the client.

The very, I think one of the first in-person conversations you and I ever had, I snuck in a little question about some personal advice. And I remember you saying something about writing stuff down. Yep. You've already mentioned to me today about writing stuff. stuff down. I've talked to John. He's talked about writing stuff down. Have I done it? No. I hate to report that I haven't. But why is that so important? Why is that advice that I keep hearing and something that of course will click for me six years from now as I procrastinate? So it's interesting. Like I said earlier,

I don't say the same thing to everybody. I might get to know you and like forget the journal. You're just not that tight. Okay. So I just want to preface it. Everyone's not a journal person. But I think it's like my brain drain exercise. I think it's really good to get these things up and out. I actually call it my, well, you call it puke and what? You can rally. I just keep my call puk and roll.

You're going to start using that. Oh, my God, you're going to use it. Oh, God. Okay. So I call it the journaling, the chicken soup. making chicken soup because if you make chicken soup if you're a mate you put the chicken in the water you put the water a little above and you simmer it or higher like meet them and the fat rises to the top and you skim it off so if you're trying to make a really beautiful pure chicken broth the fat

rises to the top so and you skim it off i kind of look at journal writing like that like up and out. Like I even say don't use punctuation or grammar. I say write like nobody's reading, like dancing, nobody's watching, right, like nobody's reading because it's just a way to, it's just another tool to get it up and out. And what's also interesting, this is going to maybe upset some people. But if you're one of those journal writing people back when you were 10, and now you're 30, probably you're going to see the same similar themes from when you were 10 to your 30. That's not bad news. It's just kind of we are who we are, but we can get better at who we are. So, you know, maybe you have a thing about time management or, I mean, I don't know you well enough,

but if you had been doing a journal, we might see how you've improved and where you need to keep improving. So journal writing's like one tool to kind of focus what you're holding in your brain and get it up and out, basically. But I really think it's a good tool. I really absolutely think it's a great tool because I just, it's so easy, you know. Well, it was alarming to me. Alarming is not the right word, but it was always stuck with me. I think it was the Sunday of the Rider Cup. Max had talked.

He'd said something about, I forget what round it was, but he talked about he wrote himself a letter. Right. That was Masters to. That's right. 24. 24 when he was in contention, yes. That's right. Oh, my God.

Was such a. Beautiful. Were you proud of him for that? Oh, my God. Well, it was really his idea. I think we were, we were hanging a lot and we were writing things a lot. And he was doing his journal work a lot. And we were talking about him as a kid and loving golf a lot.

And then I think he came up with that. And it was, oh my God, like really, really, really meaningful. Yep. Is it easier or I'm just curious your perspective. I don't know how to lead into this of what it's like working with somebody who's achieving at a relatively high level that's looking to get to the next level versus somebody that is that is kind of bottoming out in some way or in a slump in some way. I'm wondering if you can kind of compare what it's like to work in those two different scenarios.

Well, we're human, so way more fun when we're going up instead of going down. I think what's really most important, and I said this to a client in this last year, and I repeat it to him, talent doesn't go away. So what does go away is our focus, our perspective, our working on the right things, our balance in our lives. So when we're in that downside, that's when the self-belief is really important because talent doesn't go away. and it's important to do my chicken soup theory and take a good look of like what do you need to do in your life to give yourself what you need to get better. It might be technical, might be your body's change, it might be really mechanical, but I mean, why not look at the emotional mental piece of it? And, you know, there's so much, you know, all of our lives are this beautiful,

garden to till and you know i i just think it would be a shame not to look at it like that but some people really don't want to talk about these kind of things they'd rather like rah-rah and you know i can imagine people listening like oh my god you know i just want to like freaking hit my wedge 140 yards great but so if i if i say that if i hear that from them then i say Well, what's stopping you? Like, what is getting in the way of that? Do you need to get stronger? Your hips?

You're like, I still can work the technical. But people say they want a lot or someday a lot, but if you really want to get there, it's like do the steps that will get you there. And there's so much access to help. And it's a lot about time management. Or I say, go play golf. just rip it and have a great time. So it's like, it's sad to me when I see people out there,

like playing Saturday and, you know, they're taking this time and they're miserable. Yeah. Because they're playing so crappy, but they haven't worked at it. So you might also just have fun. I'm just not realizing how guilty I am probably like, hey, fix my mental things.

And I might not do all the things you're asking me to do process-wise here, but just fix me mentally. Yeah, it just doesn't quite work. Okay, close your eyes. Boom. Now, think positively, the ball's just going to go straight. Do you, I'm curious, do people ever come to you? Do you have any specialty in this area of like if they have a particular yip going on,

they have a particular mental block specific to golf? Is that something you deal with? And kind of, I'm wondering if you could kind of unlock the yips, because I can't be the only one that, uh, listen to this thing that goes through this from time to time. So not from a neuroscience perspective. You know, I read a lot about a lot of stuff like that. But let's take chipping on a tight lie, not just putting. Let's just go chipping on a tight lie.

I like to see, like, I like to be standing right there in practice rounds. Like, what are you feeling? Like, because it, like, what are you feeling your body in that moment? And usually things come up like, insecure, scared, not free, doubting mechanics, all sorts of things. So then it's like we unwind that. And then if they're playing a tournament where there's a lot of chipping and tight lies, then we practice the crap out of that shot.

So they can do it in a second and learn. how to focus on their toolbox after practicing so much that it's instinctual at that point. And we learn how to cut the brain off and the negative thinking that once again, their body and mind are working together. It takes work. But I, you know, my theory is dig in. Like, what is that? Like, that shot to me is my favorite shot.

But, you know, I'm no pro. or I'm like a fort, well, probably like a 25 and haven't played in a year. But like I have players that that just, that shot just keeps them up at night. So we have to, we dig in from all directions what's going on there, but practice, practice, practice. So then when you're out there, you've learned how to not get the negative, you know, mantra is going and work with what you do now. So.

Is there ever a handoff or do you work, you know, with a player's, like, technical instructors, you know, in this scenario, like a lot of scenarios with a yip. It can be there is a technical problem with what they're doing. It exposes and leads them down a bad mental path. And I'm curious, do you ever have direct conversations with kind of an instructor to help get through to them in any way? Yeah.

How does that work? All the time. I would say my best, the thing I love the most, and I'm still trying to figure it out from a career perspective. I have a few times is to go with a player. swing coach, myself, even a body physio person, and work with a shot like that. But, you know, everybody has to have some time and be open to, like, what's going on here? Like, from your perspective, you're, and if it works well, it's unbelievable.

And then we bring the caddy in, okay, so then, okay, this is where we are. So we might do that Monday, Tuesday, then Wednesday we do it. And, okay, this is what he or she needs to get back to what we just worked on. And it sounds like a lot, but if a player is open to that level of support and we don't annoy them that much, like, it's an amazing gift to give to yourself. Like, seriously. And I don't really believe you can't overcome something like that. I really don't.

I guess I'm an optimist. I just feel like there's a key there somewhere. Yeah, it's got to be hard figuring out the sequence of it, right? It's like I've gone through chipping stuff, but it's like as my technique has improved, my fear decreases and you know, but at the same time it creeps back in sometimes and then I look at it and like, oh, well, my hands are too far back.

But then like, if you're walking up to that shot and you're walking down the fair one, like, uh-oh, here's that shot. Yeah. you start working with your brain right then. You start saying, you know what? I've worked really hard at the shot. This is, I'm going to have fun with this thing. You know, so you start preparing mentally.

You start tilling the garden as you're walking into the shot. And no negative thinking like, oh, my God, I've screwed this up a hundred times. Like, you might have that thought, but then replace it with something good. And I think it's the Buddhists or I, I'm sorry if I'm butchering this, but like these thoughts are like clouds moving across the sky. Good and bad. There's a thought. Doesn't mean it's real.

It doesn't mean it's truth. It's a thought. Like, I'm going to screw this up. And then wouldn't we rather if we're going to fantasize about the future, like have a good thought? You know what? This might be my best shot chip ever. Won't we rather go with that? Because they're both not true yet.

that's why the rotella quote always sticks in my head of like what would thinking poorly do to help you like what how would that possibly help you and uh again i know it just committing to it or worrying like worrying doesn't do anything it just ruins the moment this is uh and this is probably like most of what we've been talking about to this point but just i'm making this comment in general something that always fascinates me with i look at how much i care about very silly rounds of golf and I cannot imagine having dedicated my career in my life to the game to the point that a lot of the professionals do. And I don't know how I look at and I'll just pull a name out of somebody that's playing really good golf right now that hasn't won a bunch, but looks to be winning

a lot more. Of course, right now is Cameron Young. And I say I'm so impressed with how he handles everything that goes on on the golf course. And it looks like the golf doesn't matter to him. And I don't, I don't mean to say that that is the case. But he's been able to dedicate so much time into practice and all the things that are necessary to be a champion. And at the same time, it looks like whatever happens out there is not going to have a drastic impact on him. And I don't, I truly don't know how you achieve all that. Even as much success as Scotty Sheffler has had recently, like some of the frustrations

in his game make it very clear that, you know, he's got some frustrations going on currently in his game and wears a lot of that emotion. I'm just curious your perspective on that of how these guys are able to spend as much time as they do and dedicate their lives to it, yet not have the weight of what happens out on the golf course overcome them? So I don't know either. I'm very well. I know both of them, kind of.

I think Cam Young probably somehow figured this out in the last few months because, from my perspective, he was unbelievable and not winning like he is now. So something shifted for him. Hard worker, he plays, I've seen a practice at Die Preserve, which is where I am, and hard worker, fathers involved. I have a respect for his work ethic. I don't know what shifted. I would love to ask him because I do think it mattered too much until something shifted and he was able to not, he was like almost able to channel the good side. And what did he say on 18 at Sawgrass?

This is going to be my best swing ever or something? See, I like my players to do that every, that would be a goal every swing. So, but I loved hearing that like, oh, that's so cool. So then my question, of course, well, was he doing that all day? Anyway, Scotty, you know, I think Scotty, and I don't know, but I think he has found a real good balance between on the course, off the course. And what I'm seeing is a little seeping into that world, but I really have no idea what I'm talking about.

So for the record, we're recording this before the PGA championship. Okay. We're posting this after, and he might have just won for all we know, just for that record. Oh, Scottie. I meant that more as a, that was not downplaying what Scottie has done at all, other than just like finding Cam's approach in particular to be unique. And it just seems like as a dream for a client to reach a level of,

I care so much about this, but it's not going to define me. And I actually think Scott, that's a massive strength of Scotty's. I was more just referring to he has a, just an undying competitive grit that can come out as frustration when it's not going perfectly. Right.

But I guess Cam was just an example of, It just doesn't seem to wear his emotions on his sleeve when it's not going well. They're both great examples. And since I can't speak from experience, they are both masterful at doing something that's working. And as somebody curious like me from a mental standpoint, I would really love to ask them and them to tell me honestly and know that it wouldn't go anywhere. It's just from my interest. So, but my experience of Scotty, like the, the, the craziness that happened at the PGA two years ago when he was arrested, that horrible,

what year was that? 20. It was 24, yeah. Okay. So I'll tell a quick story. That was just a crazy for all of support in the golf support world. I was staying 20 minutes away. As we know, the weather was terrible.

That entrance in was dark. We don't have to rehash it all. But from my perspective, it was a problem for me to. So the night of Scotty, the night before Scottie's accident, I was watching the news and the weather was terrible. And I knew I had to get up at like four in the morning to get to the course and I'm butchering this. Okay, I'll go correct.

The day before I left the day, it was a Wednesday I think, and I left the course really tired, walked to my parking lot and in the field, near the parking lot, I was the only one in the parking lot, there was a guy face down in the field, seriously. And I'm not a medical doctor. And I'm on the phone with my husband, who is a medical doctor.

And he says, don't go, don't, and I was like, I have to. He said, yeah, you're right, you gotta go check on him. So nobody's around, the Wi-Fi's kind of going in and out. I walk over, I have Rick on the phone. He's not breathing. probably 50 year old guy. And I go, I like, he said, just nudge him. And I'm like nudging him and not.

And kick him harder and kicking him harder. And I can't get 911 and I'm yelling. And Ricks is like, try to don't move them, but just like, nudging starts coughing. Oh my God, thank God. Oh my God. So finally somebody walks by, he sees what's going on. he runs he gets 911, 911 comes,

long story short, they get him, he's now conscious, they take him away. Weird night for me, like I didn't even know his name, nothing. Oh, I had started CPR, I had started CPR, which I had now heard that you don't do it mouth to mouth anymore. So I was like, I was just trying to fricking save his life. So the next morning, I get there, the whole thing happens with Scottie,

I get to the putting green around, 11. Scotty and Teddy walk up to the putting green. He's like out of jail, going to tee off. And he walks right over to me. I don't really know him. And he said, I heard you save somebody's life last night. Wait, you just got out of jail and you're about to tee off in a major.

And you're telling me about saving somebody's life left. But like, that's the kind of guy he is. Wow. Yeah. I never heard that story. I'd never heard that this story with you. I mean, you never found out who this person was or what happened after that? No, never told me who he was.

And if he lived and if he's listening, I hope you're okay. No, never heard. I asked, I went to the PGA. It's like, who was this? I never heard another word. Wow. Yeah. That is a crazy story.

Crazy story. But the wherewithal for, Sky didn't know me, but Teddy must have told us. I don't know even, but he walked. I mean, literally, I think he was about to tee off intendant. Wow. Just a good-hearted guy. Yeah. Well, that brings me to one of my points.

So your nickname was or is stealth. Can you be on Netflix and still be considered stealth anymore? No. That's when it got that. And trust me, my kids do not call me stealth. Because you worked, you know, your name is synonymous with obviously working with some these players now, but that's not always been the case. You've been out there for a long time, and you've kind of worked in the background for quite some time. I hit behind many trees.

One of my clients, Jimmy Walker, named Starbucks, because I'd only meet him at a Starbucks, and he'd be, like, incognito. So I have, I have absolutely been stealth for many years until Netflix. Wow. That's all, that's all changing now. It's all changing. I think we're all for the better off learning about this stuff. Your book is coming out here shortly mastering your mental game. Can you tell us a little bit about what people might find in that? I was talking about this with somebody yesterday. I think because I'm not an poster or an Instagram person, I think in the tour world, there's a lot of interest or like what does she really do, right? Because I don't talk much about it unless unless something like this or unless a client decides to go off and talk about me.

But it's really kind of what we did today's my tools, my belief system, my digging deep, know yourself, some stories. I have a few quotes from some of the clients that have talked about me and their quotes. And it's a toolkit for golf slash life and how. how golf is such a beautiful metaphor to life. And I'm so lucky that I got introduced to the game. And somehow what's happened here, back when I was studying psychology all these years ago, I found a niche because I love, love, love to play golf.

And it just for myself, I just kept learning so many things about myself. And then a professional golfer was referred to me. And actually from marriage counseling. So this is a guy, like 28 years ago. And he came to me a few times, him his wife. And then six weeks later, kind of a Jimmy Walker story, he won. He won the tournament. So wasn't me, was it?

Who knows? But he hired me for a year. And then one of his top 10 best friends said, wow, I'm going to hire you for a year. So that's kind of how it all happened. and the book has kind of my gems, secrets, beliefs, and how golf and life intertwine. And I dedicated it to Tim Roosevelt, who was one of the best journalists out there

and helped me a lot 25 years ago, kind of getting my belief out, my belief system out. And, yeah, took me a long time to write it. And I'm staring at it. It's like, it's kind of like when I give my dog a bone, he'll circle it and he'll growl and he won't grab at it. I'm like looking at my book and I'm not picking it up. Not yet. You can't read it.

Not yet. Yeah. Well, thank you for sending me a copy. Thank you for sharing those thoughts with the world. And thank you for helping me with my mental game a little bit here today, a little different approach we took to this interview. I'm going to offer you something. You know, I'm going to offer you, right? Okay.

Okay. Totally no cost. no cost give me six months to work on what you want is it home golf performing on those and let's see what we could do for you okay or three months and maybe you bring it to your listeners like this is what we're doing i don't know because you could definitely you've got some uh you've got some good potential on there i i'm sitting here believing that i'm i'm ready to play some decent golf this summer. I haven't felt that last couple years just for a variety of reasons.

Like my, just body reasons. Just not taking very good care of my body as well. But we're starting to get a little bit better at that. Okay. I'm a better place mentally. I know that I have been finding that balance. Well, your first homework is just write down top 10 things you want to improve on. Notice I didn't say things you're bad at improve on.

And then 10 things you're just great up. mentally, golf-wise. I can do both those things. I will do this. I'll after from you for a few years. It's okay. Then I've got it solved. You can just see you've got it all figured out.

Yeah, exactly. We'll see you next week. Well, thank you for your time. Julie, thanks. Really, really appreciate it. And best luck with the book and everything. And I'll see you soon. Thank you so much.

See you all. All right.