No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1180: Story Time with Rich Lerner

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

Rich Lerner joins Soly to discuss his career broadcasting golf for NBC and Golf Channel and shares some of his favorite stories detailed in his book “Aren’t You That Golf Guy?: Doglegs and Detours from a Life in the Game”. From the early days of Golf Channel, the Tiger boom, working on “Life From” and a ton more, we really enjoyed having Rich on the pod for the first time. Support our Sponsors: Titleist Arccos Golf If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Sali here got an interview coming shortly with NBC and Golf Channel personality.

Rich Lerner, he's got a book out. It's called Aren't You That Golf Guy? This is Rich Lerner like you've never seen him before. It might actually be a record for F bombs dropped in one particular. interview. He's got an amazing stories from 30 years in the business, and he tells them pretty much all here in the book and on this podcast as well. So I think you're going to really enjoy this listed and see a different side of Rich. Just of note, we recorded this last week. This is coming out on June 30th. We recorded this before Alan Shipnook's piece that dropped on Phil

Mickelson. We do talk a little bit about Phil. We don't talk about any of that that came out in that article as that article was not out yet. So that's just a little editor's note. Also of note, Monday morning, Victor Hovlin took home his eighth PGA tour win, all of which have come with his ProV1 golf ball. That's now 11 wins in the last 11 weeks on the PGA tour for tidaless golf ball players. You heard a lot about managing spin on the broadcast, especially after the rain delay. Spin is a huge part of why Hovlin chooses to play ProV1. He's a player that likes to be able to hit it hard without worrying about that full swing spin creeping up too high.

He gets max performance around the greens as well to hit those short-sided shots with tons of spin. So he also loves the more penetrating ball flight he gets with ProV1 as well as overall consistency, particularly in the wind. That's a lot of the reasons why I play ProV1 as well. So I don't like to see that ball come backwards at me. Head to Titles.com to find out what ball is right for your game. Without any further delay, let's get to our chat with Rich Lerner. We just jumped on here. You're already telling stories.

You're already making analogies. You're already thinking of movie references. I think one thing, a lot of viewers that have watched Golf Channel and NBC over the years, know you've always you've you've got a way to tie what's happening the scene in front of you into something of historical reference you know something pop culture related you asked you have to be one of the biggest pop culture fans uh or uh historians that that we that we encounter on daily basis in the golf world sally good to be with you know i'm just looking for ways to spice it up whatever is that we're talking about i think i was uh i pulled out a seven iron here from route

250 of the courtyard Marriott in Cromwell, Connecticut. This is the point in the season, by the way, where we reassess exactly what it is we're doing with our lives because last night the decision was Jersey mics or Chili's, which is right next to us in the parking lot here of the courtyard and we've been banging it on the road for a long time. But I pulled out my seminar and I was telling you about my round with Brandel and our lead producer, Matt Hegarty and Brandel's wife and co-host of their podcast, Bailey, at Sleepy, hollow in New York and it's absolutely epic. And I said, you and you're standing on the 16th

T. They're overlooking the wide expanse of the Hudson. You get these Daniel Day Lewis last mohegan vibes based on, you know, one of the criteria that they use in rankings, memorability, it is absolutely one of the best that I've played. I'm kind of surprisingly more interested in diving into where you started, though, of look, you're on TV. The life is glamorous. You're in amazing hotels. You're going to amazing locations. They feed you caviar in between, you know, during commercial breaks and everything, right? That's what I once thought a TV job was like and working at golf was like. But is it room 258 in Cromwell, Connecticut more often than it is the glamour? I write about this in a chapter called Road Lowe's. So I'll get, you know, Road Lowe's or Pinehurst two years ago. I'm doing live from, I think it was on a Wednesday night, so late live from. But then I'm leaving. meeting off the live tournament coverage of the next morning on air at 630, meaning you have to be up about four in the box for rehearsal at 5.30. And I'm dragging ass, obviously, but there's nothing like live television to get your attention.

There's nothing worse than sucking on television. I know because I have sucked many times in my life. So, you know, it has your attention and, you know, the coffee's flowing and I get in the box and I have a couple things on my mind. Let's do a clean show. Let's not screw this up. And then let's get to the food tent in the television compound by 915 and bacon and eggs. That's all I'm thinking about. I'm hungry.

And I finish. We do a clean show and hop in the golf cart, go to the compound, and they've cut off breakfast no more. They shut it down. So it's disappointed, but I'm hungry and I'm tired. And I hop in the car. And there's not a ton in Pinehurst, as you know, know we're staying in some condominiums that were built in the Orville Moody era. So I figured there's going to be a Panera, a Starbucks, a Chick-fil-A, somewhere on the way

back. And I get in the car and I'm on the road to There Ain't shit out here. And finally, the GPS says I'm like a quarter mile from the turn-in to the Orville-Moodie condominiums. And I'm hungry as shit. And this is my last chance. There's a Sonok. station on the right. I peel into the Sonoko station. I walk in and there they are, spinning like ballerinas under the heat lamp. You've been there, Sally. It is the slices of pepperoni pizza which you need a little grease puddling on top of the pepperoni pizza. This is the point where at two in the morning, even the meth addict says, nah, I'm good. But I was not good. I was hungry and I pulled two slices of pepperoni out of the glass case under the heat lamp and put them in the triangular cardboard boxes,

grabbed the Coke, went into the Chevy Impala at 9.30 in the morning and dine like a king. That, my friend, is a road low. And if you can't, if you can't endure road lows, then you can't be out here for 30 years as I have been. Well, that's what's, you know, I, I, we, I have a dream job. I absolutely love my job. It's an absolute, you know, a pleasure to go through life doing something you love to do every day. But there's also, there's an aspect of, I've done a better job now. I make it a six day a week job.

It was a seven day a week job for me for quite some time. There's an aspect of working in sports. You are mostly working while people are recreating, right? You are working in the hours, you know, weekends. You work in hours where people are watching. watching television more likely than it is the nine to five, you know, during the week, but also you work nine to five during the week as well. It's, uh, I'm wondering it, you know, for, for during as long as you have,

have you ever struggled with the push and pull of the demands of a job that you, that you really love, but it has a certain demand on your time that can be challenging. Yeah, absolutely. But let me say this, Sally, that even when I'm not sort of as, you know, the old pro at the driving range, my dad's range used to say clocked in and we did legitimately, put the punch card in the clock. You clocked in. And it would make a clicking sound and you, you know, clocked in at 9-17 and you clocked out at 324 and then you got paid by the hour. In any event, so even when I'm not clocked in, I'm kind of working. So a couple of weekends ago

might have been colonial, whatever it was, colonial, like anybody else who loves the game. I was on the couch at home. I was four o'clock. You know, I had the, I had the hands like this. You know, does all guys go there? Because as we know, what's crucial in our game is ball position and proximity. So I'm just laying there and I'm watching Colonial Saturday at 4 o'clock. And my wife came in. She's what are you doing? And I said, I'm working.

What are you doing? So I can legitimately say, this is work. I'm working. So, yeah, look, it can take a toll for sure. you know, away from home. My wife raised the two boys, Jesse and Jack. I mean, for the most part, she did all the hard work. She did the homework, whatever came up. Those are the tradeoffs that you make. But we're all good today. You know, we had a few rough years early, you know, me personally. I was chasing a hard on the road. I write about this a little bit in Kobe and Payne chapter later in the book.

Like pain, I had it in my own. reckoning as I was partying hard on the road. I thought that's the way you did it. You ran hard at night. And then you got after it during the day. That's what all the great journalists did, told their best stories at the bar. But what I learned the hard way is that you can blow it.

If you're not careful on the road, bottles of wine are popping every night at dinner. And you know, you get off the air. In our case, on a lie from, if you get off at 10 o'clock, when you're finished work, whatever it is that you do, you're a lawyer, you're an accountant, you're a plumber, you don't go to bed right away. You're still amped up. So there was always, it was always an opportunity to run, and we all had

plenty of energy when we were younger. I was fortunate that I got that wake up call, you know, it was probably early 2000s, and I had to make a, you know, a decision. What do I want to do out here? What do I want to be? Do I want to be the guy hanging around the bar when I'm 50? saying, you know, I used to or I could have, I should have, or do I want to have a long run in the business? And so, you know, I made that hard choice. And because if you run hard late at night out here, you absolutely get run over early in the morning. And the hours kept expanding out here. You know, as media just has grown in different ways, they never do turn the spickets off. Yeah. As long as you've done, you know, as long as you've done,

done this job and when we watch you on television it looks about i can't think of somebody that that makes the job look more natural and you know every time i get you know even today before i press the record button before i do an interview i get like a wave of nervousness just you know you just don't know the unexpected nature of of you know this isn't a live interview but just the uncertainty that's about to come every we're a thousand episodes in and every time i before i hit record i get just a little anxious like what are we going to talk about am i going to screw this up does that ever go away have you do you Do you still experience that 30, 30 years, Ed? Do you have a wave of nervousness before the red light comes on?

It isn't so much nervousness. I used to carry that. It's more comfort. I always smiled right before when they're five, four, three, two. I smiled to myself and just remind myself, it's a privilege. I'm lucky to be able to do this. I love broadcasting.

I always have just the art of it. And so I go in with that attitude, but I'm still racked with doubt. You know, did I do it well? What did you think? Do you like me? We're in a, you know, in a business where you're desperate to be liked. You know, you grow up in the business and you do it long enough.

You do hopefully maybe get to a point where you say, this is who I am. But, you know, I still get amped. I don't know if I would call it nervousness. But I still carry doubts. to this day. I remember seeing an interview and please understand I am not comparing myself to Robert Duvall, great actor from the Godfather and so many other movies. But I saw an interview with Duval on Inside the Actor's Studio and he was asked by James Lipton, do you still have doubt? And at this point, Duval had won numerous Oscars and other awards. And he looked at Lipton

sort of incredulous. Like, are you kidding me? I always carried doubt. It keeps me on edge. It keeps me where I need to be, wondering if I'm any good. So, you know, I have to keep working hard. And so it's still and always, Sally, I think you know this, and I apologize if this is cliche, but this is kind of all I know, it's still and always rooted in the work. And that's the best way to to crush the nervousness, the doubt, whatever it is that we all drag with us to, to whatever it is that we do is just put the work in and trust that you've done what you need to do. I'm curious to, I was planning to ask you this later, but I'll branch off into this now of you've done, again, done the job for a long time. And we've gone through a weird, obviously a very weird

transition phase here in the last several years. And that this live golf thing pops up. You, and I'm going to put myself in the place of some pretty bad faith actors here as I asked this, because it seems to be, you know, there's a viewpoint by these bad faith actors that you work for NBC Golf Channel has a media rights deal with the PGA Tour. You are just out to squash live in any way. Anything you say, anything Brandel says is all from state-run media, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's the, that's the bad faith viewpoint of this. Has that affected you in any way? Kind of, you know, negative feedback towards Golf Channel by people that are fans of this league

or kind of had campaign pretty hard against, you know, mainstream golf, whatever that means. And is it like anything else you've experienced in golf in the last 30 years? No, I mean, this was the biggest upheaval of my 30 years at Golf Channel. And I don't think it's had a terribly negative impact.

I mean, I think some of this was understandable. I do remember being, at an event and outing. And, you know, Liv came up. This is probably three years ago, three, four years ago when we were still in that phase where guys were jumping and the narrative was always with the question was, who's next? Hey, I heard this one. And he might go. They offered this one, 100 million, whatever it was. And somebody asked me point blank, would you, would you go? If they offered you 10 million, 20 million, I said, no, I wouldn't, no more than I would go to play in a league started by Vladimir Putin or Pol Pot.

And the guy came at me hard and said, bullshit, you'd take the money. And I dug in and I said, no, I don't think I would. That was one sort of personal encounter that I can remember. Yeah, I mean, look, this generated a lot of heat online. It was combustible. And Brandl was into his. his position and I don't think he wavered.

Amon was dug in on his position, didn't waver. I give those guys credit. They were early to it and they stayed with it. And in a lot of levels, it made sense. People were entitled to come at them in whatever way they thought made sense that, hey, the Saudis are invested in 100 other ways in American and global economies. So why can't they be invested in golf? All of that was fair game.

I think Liv was always a better story than it was a product. The story of Liv was better and more compelling than the product. And when I would go to outings or wherever I would go, I would ask for a show of hands over the last few years, how many in here, 50 people, 100 people, 200 people, watch golf, watch live golf at all. And I'm telling you, Sally, almost every time it was not a single hand went up. People didn't watch. And I understand some of that was that it just wasn't readily available on American TV until more recently. But I just, I don't think it mattered to people.

And that's why they didn't watch. There was this sense that guys just went for the money. And so I think we're near the end. I think the PGA tour has won. I think a lot of damage was done. And I think some players got hurt. They got rich, but they got hurt. And I think, you know, probably the biggest individual casualty in all of this. I think, you know, when the dust settles and time goes by, we'll likely have been Mickelson. Yeah. I write extensively about it. There's a chance. chapter called Impossible to Fuck Up. Do it. Yeah, this was one of the best of the book. It's, and so I, you know, I try to be fair. The previous chapter is called Hot Dog Phil.

I don't mean to be, you know, nakedly promoting, but I'm thinking in my mind, how did I tell the story of Phil? I wanted to be fair because I loved watching Phil. And there were some phenomenal years. He was exciting. And I think that which, you know, may have brought him down. there's another chapter called Juice is what made him so good to watch. He didn't give a shit.

He was willing to risk it all for the home run shot. And if he failed, it's just a game. And so I had good days with Phil. I had laughs with Phil. I walked the fairways a couple of times with Phil. And one notably was at the Scottish Open in, I think it was a year after he won. It would have been 2014. He had won the Scottish Open and the Open back to back in 13.

13 was memorable for me because my father had passed like 10 days before. I wasn't going to go. My mom said, you know, you go. It's your job. Your dad was so proud of you. You know, my dad, as the story goes, started the driving range, fully lighted part three in miniature golf. That was my entree into golf.

written about, you know, heavily in the book. So I went and I had this overwhelming feeling of peace. It was the most beautiful week with these, you know, long days and gorgeous sunsets at 9, 30, 10 at night. But in any event, I remember walking the fairways of the Scottish Open with Phil and the first minister of Scotland at the time for Alex Salmon. And Scottish independence was on the table at that point in time. It was a super hot topic. And, And the first minister at this point is under heavy pressure. He just wants to play some golf with this world famous player. He wants to learn how to hit a flop shot.

And Phil is out there talking about Scottish independence, the Yakubite rebellion. He's talking about, you know, and Phil's an expert, not just on the flop shot. As you know, he's an expert on Chinese aerospace, Pacific plant life. You pick the subject and he will go. I've talked at length about fast food with Phil. The chapter is called Hot Dog Phil. And Phil is, this is maybe, I don't know, 2010 thereabouts, is riffing on the merits of five guys.

He had bought into the five guys franchise in Southern California. So he's pushing it. And, you know, I'm with him. Like, yeah, I think five guys is definitely better than in and out. I think in and out's a little overrated. And then I say, hey, you know, when you get to Philly, you know, I went to school there. You got to do the cheese steak bit.

He gives me, was it. Pats is the one. Yeah. I mean, Pax is the most famous, but it's not the best. There's a place called Delisandro's and Roxboroughs. We're riffing. And then I tell him about this hot dog joint in my hometown, where I grew up in Allentown called Yacos.

And he says, what sounds like arts in L.A.? And I make this note. When I cover Rib, I'm going to go to arts in L.A. And I said, I'll tell you what, Phil. Yaco's Hot Dogs in Allentown, PA, goes back to the early 1900s from the same family that produced the old the late great automobile icon Lee Iacocca they send out what they call doggy packs their little little chilly hot dogs and they send them all over the world if you win a tournament I will get them to send you a box and

sure enough Phil wins in Houston in the run-up to the to the masters in 2011 so he had one in 2010. He didn't serve Yacos at the Champions Dinner, but I did see him later, and he did feed his entire crew at the house they'd rented Yacos hot dogs. So I say this to remind people that there were a lot of good days with Phil Mickelson. He was fun to cover. Great to cover. For all of the BS, you know, the subcutaneous fat that he talked about, whatever, whatever Phil was running, whatever game he was running, he was fun to cover. And he was a phenomenal player. obviously. So you fast forward to Kiowa in 2021 and impossible look up what he had. They've been playing majors since 1860 and nobody 50 years or older had ever won one until Phil did it at

Kiowa. And I argued that had he walked into the good South Carolina night on that Sunday and never hit another shot, he's one of the three to five most beloved famous players in the history of the sport. He has what I call the Arnold Palmer Ambassadorship, meaning you don't have, you have to hit a single shot, and you're good for probably 30 million a year conservatively. You have the seat next to Jimmy, probably. I know that was in the works. You have the Peyton Manning style content creation machine that he had already been cranking up. You have the Ryder Cup captaincy. You might have a plaque in a Pineshrow at Augusta National. You're definitely hitting a ceremonial first tee shot somewhere down the road. You have it all. That is impossible to lock up. And he did. I think we all

know the reasons why. I think it's tragic. And I don't know. America's a forgiving country, but Phil burned a lot of bridges in Pontevira. He legitimately tried to burn it to the ground. He tried to ruin the PGA tour. And I don't think he's welcomed back. But that said, part of of what I've thought about, what I write about is how complicated people are. And this even goes more recently to Wyndham Clark, hero or heel, good guy or bad guy. People constantly ask me, who's the biggest jerk in the game? I write about that. Who's a good guy?

They want to know. And all I can tell you, Sally, after all these years, is that people are complicated. And I don't know them as, you know, I know them professionally. I know they're great at golf. but I assume that they struggle with life, that they have vulnerabilities. And that's one of the bigger themes I try to tap into is that people, we all share these kind of vulnerabilities, but have the capacity for growth. And so I think Phil's somewhat of a tragic figure at this point, but you can't take away

what he did on the golf course. that's where I've you know I I agree with you that America is a forgiving it can be a forgiving place but for me personally it's always like you got to ask for it though you got to you got to you got to have some contrition you got to you know you got to acknowledge wrongdoing in some way and acknowledge that and and it's just gets a lot easier to move on I made some mistakes and you get move on it just seems like it's really really snowballing on him and you know it's weird because so many of my memories and I I feel like this naturally ties in with Tiger as well. And they're, they're kind of off, both of their off course issues are both

very different. And, and, and I don't want to lump them together too closely. But so many my golf memories, why I love this game, why I'm into this game, have been because of those two and the entertaining moments they've given us over the years. And I hate now that I go back and I'm like, you know, if I watch Keowa highlights or I watch old master's highlights from Phil and I'm, I, it's impossible to get out what I know is coming down the line in the future there. It's impossible to wiped that from my, from my memory. But, you know, at the same time, like, the 2013 open was incredible. Like, that was absolutely incredible. It just complicates so many of my, my feelings about the past. And I, I hate that. And your, you know, your career has spanned the careers of,

of both of these guys. And, you know, this book originally was set out to be a book about Tiger, and it kind of devolved into something else, as you've, as you've told. And I don't really know where I'm going with this other than to say it just has to be so fascinating for you for Golf Channel the birth of Golf Channel in 1997 you know Phil's Humming at that point and or I forget what year you started with Golf Channel in 1997. 97 yeah early 97 right right as Tiger was yeah it had to be the most exciting time yeah it was um it was uh me it was uh off the charts so I get there in 97 tigers on a rocket ship, golf channel has just started. We're strapped in. We're going with him. And we owe him a ton. Let's be clear on that. I don't think we are where we are today without Tiger Woods.

At the same time, the legends of the game who are still relevant, still showing up, holding press conferences, Arnold Palmer, Jack, Nicholas, even some of the coffee table book figures of the sport were still around. Byron Nelson, Sam's, need even Gene Sarasen. And remind me, have a funny story. about Saracen. So it was a great time in the game. And, you know, to cover Tiger at that point, I call him Millennium Man. You know, I had a front row seat to it. And I still, I maintain that it was far away the greatest golf I've ever seen. It was the greatest show I've ever seen city after city. It's not just that he won and how much he won. It's how much he won. It's how he did it in the most ridiculous ways, you know, lights going out, you know, and you'll think of

Akron and Firestone over the water in Canada by 15 shots at Pebble Beach. You'll keep going. There's a funny story in the book called SVP crushes it. So Scott Van Pelt with whom I worked in the early days at Golf Channel. I think he's probably the most instinctively innately brilliant broadcaster I've ever come across. He just naturally has it blisteringly funny. Great ear does Richard Pryor impressions. He's got such a wide range. He's still with a golf channel at this time. And Tiger has won Pebble by 15 shots. And at that point, I don't think the between one and two, certainly in our sport, but maybe in any sport has ever been wider than it was right then and there.

Tiger by 15 standing on the shores of the Monterey Peninsula, and everybody else, Ellison Garcia, and keep going in a rowboat somewhere near Australia, trying to figure out how do you stop a 747 with a butterfly net? You can't. I shared the story of Ernie Ells a decade later when asked how he views that period of time when he was on the rise and ran into tiger and he said his own father said to him why don't you stand up to that man and ernie looked at his own dad and said you have no thinking idea what we're

dealing with as if tiger were a force of nature at tsunami that they couldn't stop and and he was tiger wins by 15 we go to another cathedral of golf to cover the open tiger's going for the career grand slam at 24 first try and we land and And we're going to do what we call on the business, a man on the street. You go to the local pub. You're going to find out what do the Scots think of this phenom who's just won the U.S. open by 15 shots. And this is Van Pelt's story.

He gets all the credit. So we go and, hey, we think of Tiger Woods Wednesday. We think of Tiger Woods just one of the U.S. open by 15. All right. Let us see what your American champion does in a wee breeze. Then we'll see what he's made of. I'm like, shit. These are hard people.

I get it. They invented the game. But man, they're not even buying Tiger at this point. Wow. He's winning by 23 shots on Saturday, something like that, you know. So he said, you know, Scotia, let's go back to the pub. Let's see if they've changed their mind. Again, this is Van Pelt.

Hey, do you think a tiger? All right, your American champion is shot. A fine score, a very tidy score. Speed limit of 55 is a good number. But dumb is he done to find the cure for cancer? It's not done much, has he? And so the telling of 2000 at the open is two consecutive majors at two cathedrals of golf by a combined 23 shots. So good, it was laughable.

It's hard sometimes to see that through the haze and maze of what has taken place, good and bad with tigers. over the last 25 years. It is an epic story. Everything he did was outsized in nature. In gloriously so and gloriously so. And the way I think at the end that I assess Tiger is I certainly hope coming back as he did recently with the announcement of the PGA Tour

new schedule and structure. I hope he's found peace that he's healthy, that he can enjoy his children. I'm not, you know, don't really need him personally to go play more golf. If that makes him happy and he can do it in a healthy way and stay, stay clean, then great. He's entitled to do what he wants to do. I was at an event at one point, maybe three years ago. And the crowd, I was with another well-known reporter in the crowd. Somebody in the crowd asked, what do you think of Tiger? And this reporter said that while he certainly believes he's a great player, he doesn't respect him because Tiger had disrespected him. I don't know. You know, Tiger could be imperious and if he didn't like what you asked, he could shut you down and ice you out. And that was the

case here. And so the reporter said, if you don't respect me, I don't respect you. A big round of applause from the audience and I weighed in I said look I'm not going to diminish your experience that's how you felt that's understandable I view it a little differently if the price to see what it is we witnessed during those raging triumphant years was to be stared down have a whole burn through made to feel small, I don't give a damn. I want it all. I want the fist pumps. I want the impossible pots. I want four majors in a row. I want seven tournament wins in a row. I want it all sign me up. It was the greatest thing I had ever seen. And so I ended up having a good relationship with

Tiger. I don't think it was always, you know, smooth. I don't know exactly what he thought of some of the things that I had written through the years, but we ended up in a pretty good place. And so, you know, should Tiger have won, I think we all, you know, agree, 25 wins, 25 majors and 100 tournament wins, if he didn't have the problems, the issues that he had. I think that's fair to say. But I'm done critiquing. I don't think when people went to see the Rolling Stones at Madison Square Garden in their heyday, they wondered, hey, I wonder what Keith and Mitch.

did last night. You know, they just wanted those guys to blow the roof off and they wanted to jam and have a good time. And Tiger was the greatest concert in the history of our sport, city after city for a period of probably 10 to 12 years. And we got, you know, some, you know, some pretty nice nostalgia concerts in 2018 and 2019. And so I'm done critiquing. Tiger was a genius from another realm in my in my opinion no different than than any great writer who may have struggled in other ways or a painter or or any other artist he he had this gift he knew how to do what it is that that he did in ways that none of us could ever understand and so the you know the life of a prodigy i think is is hard to fathom. I think they oftentimes arrive at adulthood with this one skill, but not much else.

I'm not saying Tiger didn't have other assets. Tiger's done a lot of good with his foundation. I think he's a bright guy, but I think he succumbed in the way that I know personally it is possible to temptation and to any of the other forces that grab people and that that, that, pull people down. And again, therein is another, another lesson of my 30 years is that they're great golfers, but they're susceptible to those those same struggles that plague so many of us. So what a what a privilege to have seen it and covered it. So we're about halfway through the golf season. It's a good time to figure out what's actually helping your game and what's not. We've been using Arcos all year. It is the smartest system in golf and the official

game tracker of the PGA tour. It's been a massive first half of the year for Arcos. First, they launched a new Arcos Air. You can automatically track your game without putting sensors on your clubs or carrying your phone. Then came the smart laser rangefinder. It's the only rangefinder that automatically adjusts for real-time weather, including wind. So you're getting the most accurate plays-like distance in golf. Then there's AI strategy. The same core strategy platform developed with Eduardo Molinari that's helping guys like Matt Fitzpatrick, who's already won three times this season. That's an incredible run of new products, but honestly, Arcos may have just released the biggest update of them all, the new Arcos app. I had early access to it for the past few

weeks. I was chomping at the bit to release some images from this one. I cannot stop digging around. And it is completely changed the experience. Does an amazing job of capturing your data and showing you where you're losing strokes. And now it tells you what to do next. It gives you personalized practice plans, pre-round warmups based on your game, AI round summaries. And you can even see the strokes gained on every individual shot. It's a great, great feature. My favorite one might be the new course history. Every round you've ever played at a course is there. You can see trends where you drive it, highlights, insights, screens that you don't put well, holes you don't chip well on. I just keep finding more and more cool stuff. It's like you got a PGA tour level performance team

in your pocket. I just released a video on my Instagram as well. It's on the no laying up Instagram as well, just showing how the shot by shot stuff does and how it works for a nine hole round. So check that out. And if you haven't checked out Arcos, now is the time. Arcosgolf.com, that's A-R-C-C-O-S-Golf.com. promo code N-L-U-15 will get you 15% off. Again, Arcosgolf.com, A-R-C-C-O-S-Golf.com, promo code N-LU-15 to save 15%. You're going to love this product. I'm obsessed with it.

Back to the pod. That's where I find myself in a weird spot of, you know, trying to, you said it there of like, people do, people in golf care about your personality and how you, you carry yourself, right? Like, you know, it's an interesting comparison you make to musicians where, like, you know, a lot of their behavior gets excused. But golf is all about, you know, a couple wrong, you know, wrongdoing. You'll get booed. You'll get booed at the U.S. Open, you know, as you go and win it and treat it. It's, it's weird in that regard. But, you know, I feel like I'm almost kind of excusing poor behavior by some of these people when I say, like, part of what makes them

great is the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, it's. It's a slippery slope of tiger. Part of the drive, the incredible, unsatiable drive he had to be great is eventually what led to the injuries potentially and leads to the issues that he's had lately with, you know, whatever he's been in rehab for. And that's where it gets complicated, you know. Sally, think about it, the two most prolific winners,

the two most meaningful figures in the men's game over the last 30 years. Look where they've landed. Yeah. I don't know how to explain that life of a prodigy, you know, arrive at adulthood without anyone or without many people there to tell you, no, that's not the right move because people are worried about, you know, losing their place within your world. You know, when the outrageous levels of juice that it takes to fuel these performances, when that meets whatever darkness might be lying in weight, is that alchemy kind of just too much? I don't.

I don't really know. I think these people sometimes, I view them as like, they're like carnivores. They have to eat and they, you know, that this is what you do, this insatiable appetite. Think Michael Jordan and they got to consume and consume and consume and whatever, and whatever hole they may have within. no amount of winds can fill it. They try, but it's a world that I can't ever fully understand. You've thought about it. I've tried to think about it because it's our job to cover these people, but I don't know that I'll ever fully understand.

I know my job has been to cover them, and I've come away still in awe of their ability to have mastered a game that we all know is difficult. And I wish them well. It is a reminder that no amount of money, no amount of wins can keep fully at bay whatever demons might be lurking. You mentioned a Gene Saarza story

you wanted me to remind you to tell. That was on my list. So it was 98. I was new to the Golf Channel, and I'd covered Dural. And then the following morning, a Monday morning, was going to cover a Ken Venturi charity event at a club in Marco Island with a lot of the pros who were going to drive over Alligator Alley from Miami to Marco Island following morning 9 a.m. Balls in the Air. And Venturi was there. Janance is, you know, a sidekick in the booth for CBS at the time was there.

And a lot of luminaries. And Ernie L's on Sunday at Durrell had flubbed the chip shot and made double. on the 72nd all to lose the tournament by a shot. So he's gutted, but Ernie's scheduled to play in this proam the next day. And there he is on the first tee. And also on the first tee is the guy that I had seen in those that I referenced, those coffee table books, I've never seen them in person until now. And that was Gene Saracen. It was 97 years old who hit the most famous shot, one of the most famous shots.

The first famous shot in major championship history, the four wood at the 15th hole, the albatross, the force of playoff, 36 holes, which he would win over Craig Wood the next day. There's Saracen. He's 97, and he looks just as he would in those pages of the coffee table book. He's got the straw hat, the cane, and the coat and tie, and the plus fours. But he's not moving, and I'm not convinced that it's not a lawn ornament. I'm like, damn, that is, you can imagine, I'm new.

You know, I grew up around the game and I'm like, Gene Saracen was a name from another time, but there he is. So, Nancy is introducing everybody, and finally he gets to Ernie Ells. And he says, ladies and gentlemen, the great South African two-time U.S. Open champion, Ernie Ells. Now, remember, Els blew the tournament, not 24 hours prior. And Ells, classiest could be, says, Jim, thank you, Mr. Venturi. Thank you. What a wonderful event this is for such a good cause and to be in the company of a great man like Mr. Saracen. What a privilege it is.

Round of applause and Nancy says, wow, that's really nice, Ernie. Thank you. And now he walks over to where Saracen has been sitting for probably 45 minutes, not moving a muscle. I'm not convinced that he isn't the lawn ornament. And Lance leans down with the mic and says, Mr. Sarison, how about that? Wasn't that nice? And Saracen with a shaky hand takes the mic and he looks right up at Ernie. And he says, Ernie yells, first time of my life, I seen a man blow a chip shot for $500,000.

And the place just lost it. I thought, damn, this man is hitting shots. He's hitting shots. 63 years after the shot heard around the world, which 12 people saw, by the way, in 1935, but at Grantlin Rice and other myth makers at the time. So it lived on. And that's one of the great shots I've ever seen in my life. Wow. That's yeah. That, yeah, it, I, I, uh, to your point, I couldn't, I wouldn't have pictured your career spanning the, the life of Gene Saracid, right? Like that's the, I caught just a little bit. Yeah. He passed soon after. That's what I said.

When I got there, I had a moment with Sneed by the clubhouse after he'd hit the ceremonial first He shot at the Masters and it was so old school. There were like a gaggle of reporters. I remember Lenny Shapiro, the Washington Post was there at the time. And it was always a chance. It's 10 of 8 in the morning to spin a yarn. And hey, Sam, how's the swing? Still looks good.

What do you remember about your wins here at Augustine Ashland? He launched into a story one morning. It didn't take much for Sam to launch into a story even into his 80s. One year, I'm playing here with Eisenhower. And if a guy starts a story with one year I'm playing with Eisenhower, you know he's had a life in the game. And that would be a former president, Dwight T. Eisenhower. And he said, I say this to him. I said, Mr. President, you got to get your ass into the shot.

And the Secret Service come up and they grabbed me by the arm. I said, you can't say that. That's the president of the United States. I said, well, he got an ass, don't he? You know, sticky, funny little stuff like that. Byron Nelson, the first time I ever did play-by-play. was 1998 or nine and it was at the Byron Nelson and you know Byron comes into the booth. I'm like, God damn, how did you get here, you know, from my dad's range, Dorneyville Golf Center sitting

next to Byron Nelson. But there is, you know, there's always a link somehow, some way. And so when I was young and as, you know, the greatest summer job of all time, I hope everybody had a summer job job as I did. I know every kid didn't have a dad who owned a driving range, 30 stalls, fully lighted pitch and put 18 holes that was Scottish and it was elite. And my dad had, my dad had no, my dad was a 10 handicap, but he had great instincts. He was a good businessman. And I don't think he ever fully appreciated what he did with a shaper, a guy on a bulldozer in the 1950s from Quaker Town, Pennsylvania to make this super cool part three. I don't think he viewed himself as, you know, as Alistair McKenzie. But I can remember every hole. And we had a miniature

golf in a pinball room in a hot talk stand. In any event, we had an old pro at the driving range named Frank Stocky. And Frank was a hustler. He wrangled $5 lessons and he was great with beginners and he worked in a battery plant by night and he played the ponies he played the lottery he's the wisdom that he dispensed to the teenage boys who worked at the driving range always came through the butt end of an unfiltered camel and it was wisdom that no uh a priest mother father rabbi teacher would ever touch about the real world i'm getting a byron there's a biron nelson thread here so Frank was like 60-ish balding, good-looking guy at a good tan because he spent, you know, hours giving lessons. Think about the old actor Robert Loja. Do you remember Robert Loja? He kind of had that

look and, you know, beautiful powder blue Zanzibelt and the camel was a fixture. It was an appendage. So on slow mornings, Sally, we would sit around the picnic table. Think about this 15, 60-year-old boys with a guy that, you know, we would never had a had not been for the driving rooms, we never would have run into this kind of a character in our suburban enclaves. And so Frank's sitting around, it's a slow day, and he's got the cigarette going, he says, why, one year I let the Reading open, in case you're interested, shot 69 the opening round. He kind of barked, you know, his commentary, and I'm like, bullshit. Like, we knew him as, you know, a gambler, a boozehound, a guy chased women.

and hustled lessons and worked in a battery plane. Now he's telling us he shot 69. And I said, well, who was in the tournament, Frank? How about Byron, Nelson, Ben, Hogan, and Sam Sneed? Now he's kind of pissed. So I was already a good reporter at 15, Sally. I knew the follow-up question. If a guy tells he shot 69 in the opening round

and led Nelson, Hogan, and Sneed, you need to know, would you shoot the second round, Frank? He could flick a cigarette further. then Jake Elliott kicks field goals. I mean, it was end over end 47 yards. And out came the stream of smoke and with it the answer. When out that night got drunk, got late, came back, said 81 and missed the fucking cut.

And so what you need to know is when I'm on the set with Brandl and Polly, and I asked Brandl, hey, Parns, our overnight leader, 66 to open, shockingly comes back in 78, misses the cut, what happened. And Brando launches in one of his screeds. brilliant, detailed swing breakdown. It's got a little past parallel, and you can see, get a little underneath it on the way down,

and the hips are going to flare around, the spine angle, a little bit off, and they cut away to me, and I appear to be nodding in agreement. That's what we call the earnest anchor nod to Mike Tariko Jananza perfected it. Whatever is being said to you, my French poodle had explosive diary. You have to appear to be nodding and happy to hear this news. So when they cut away and Brandel's doing a screen, what I want you to know is that what I'm really thinking is bullshit, Brandel, he went out last night, got drunk cut,

like he came back, shot 78 and missed the eff and cut. That's the Byron Nelson hook there, back to my dad's driving range. So anyway, Byron Nelson actually was the assistant pro, not far from where I grew up, I grew up in Allentown. The club that I played at, my dad's modest club, was in between Allentown and Redding. And when Byron won the 1939 U.S. Open to Philadelphia Country Club famously when Sneed made eight, Byron was an assistant in the pro shop in Redding and used to drive over to Philly Country Club every day.

That's a period of time where a lot of the great players were pros or assistant pros. Hogan was in Hershey. Henry Picard was in Hershey. Claude Harmon, you know, won a Masters coming out of the pro shop at Wingfoot. You got to tell us the Jack Nicholas story, the one, the very first one in the book. That was, that was it. Yeah, the opening chapter is Jack in the draft. And first of all, Jack, I think was the best interview in all my years covering golf that I can remember.

You know, Rory, when you get them just as good or almost as good. But Jack was expansive and transparent. He loved to talk once he got going. And, you know, there's not a lot you can critique, you know, with Jack. So in the book, I try to pull out some of these more human moments. Did an interview with him where his fly was slightly unzipped. That was kind of, it's called Jack on the Fly. another story which is personal for me, very sweet and funny.

It's called Son of a B. I take my dad on his 75th birthday to the opening of the Nicholas Museum, 2002 in Columbus, Ohio, where I'm interviewing Jack for a one-hour special. My dad's very proud. He's got the Nikon camera, and it's a story about men of that generation pre-the-cell phone. And my dad choked he couldn't get the picture. And it's funny, but you learn a lot about Jack. and his love for basketball.

My dad played freshman ball at Penn and was a great two-hand set shooter. And so there's like all these common threads between the two families except that we're not clutch and Nicholas is. Jack and the Draft, some years back, I was doing an event at the Memorial Tournament. At the time it was being sponsored by Nationwide,

we were doing a corporate event. I was going to interview Jack in front of 200 people from Nationwide at the world famous Columbus Zoo. think Jack Hanna and you know it is a slice of Kenya in suburban Columbus, Ohio and about 45 minutes before the Q&A was to have started Jack and I just two of us on the veranda of the Columbus Zoo and we're admiring God's great creations look at the lion over the there there's a tiger there and there's you know the polar bear is swimming and my goodness

the elephant but we're talking golf and we're talking tiger changes to Newfield Village. And as we're chatting, just the two of us having a drink, here comes a giraffe. And I mean, you could reach over the railing two feet away from us and you could touch the giraffe. It was that close. And you look up and what a magnificent creature this giraffe is. And now the giraffe starts to take a leak right in front of us. And when a giraffe takes a leak, it's not like an older dude at two in the morning with the soft butter cut off the right side of the toilet that just kind of, you know, just kind of gently fades into the right rough. It's not that. It is the full garden hose. I mean, it is like, and so Jack and I are transfixed. We cannot believe

what we're seeing. And it's not like a quick piss and go. It's going on and on and on. Jack can I resume our conversation. Everybody in the animal kingdom peas, no big deal. Well, here comes giraffe number two, loping into the scene. So giraffe number two cranes its neck to drink from the stilke of giraffe number one. I apologize that is graphic, but you can look it up on Google. It is a real thing. It is a giraffe mating ritual, apparently, because with every species, I guess, it's, it strengths to loosen up. So with that, my boyhood idol, now I grew up at, you know, 13, 14, 15 years old in a nicholas crouch on the putting green deep into the night trying to make putts my boyhood idol says to me and me alone that's fucked up and and i didn't know i didn't know how to

you're you're right jack that that's that's that's kind of fucked up and he goes no that's really fucked up and that i always maintained in my 30 years of covering this great game that's the single greatest moment of my professional career i've seen a lot i've seen tithe i've seen tight Tiger hit some outrageous shots. I've seen Tiger do unbelievable things. When four majors in a row, I was there. 2019, I was there. Now, this tops them all.

That's the single most memorable moment of my career. Jack and the Draft. That's an incredible story. I love that one so much. There are lots of those. You know, you do this long enough. You collect these insane stories. I'm going to be like I'm out of jukebox here to get through a couple of these

that were my favorite from the book, if you don't mind. But the Bill Murray, the Bill Murray story was great. So, you know, this was like Pete Tiger, you know, Pebble Beach, when Murray was beloved out there and Red Hot. And out of camera, we followed him for a full round. And he's playing with Scott Simpson. And, you know, Murray was not unlike Tiger. You know, Tiger could riff when it was right, you know, with a golf club in hand.

And he was a brilliant solo artist. Murray was similar in that when he was in the mood and you catch Bill on a day where he might not be in the mood and you didn't really want to get near him. That's not unusual for people in the spotlight as much as these guys are. But on this day, it was improv nirvana. I mean, he was on fire. And everywhere he goes when he's playing Pebble Beach, he's not Bill Murray. he's Carl Spackler. It's in the hole. No, it's in the Pacific. It's not even close to being in the hole. That kind of stuff from either the most famous movie or golf movie of all time,

certainly Caddyshack. So Murray's riffing and we're following and we're eating it up. And he gets to 17 and he was one of the most consequential famous part three's in the world, given what's happened there. And I saw something that that rivaled the next. The Nicholas one iron in 1972, the Watson chippin in 1982. Gary Woodland, the chip from the green in 2019. Murray Flares his T-shot horribly right, borderline hazel rocket up against that, you know that grand stand there on the right, Sally, probably, I know it was at 30 yards to the right of the green. And he saunteres over because Murray doesn't walk, he saunters. And somebody from the top of the grandstands, it's jampack. This is Peak Pebble Beach. This is tight.

This is Murray when people still really enjoyed the celebrities. Peek, Pebble Beach. Someone stands up at the top of the grandstands and says, Hey, Bill, Kevin Costner made Bertie here. And Murray doesn't hesitate. He looks up as this, Kevin Costner made Waterworld. That's good. And with that, he pulls out a wedge and he hit it to about two feet

because in golf and in life and in comedy timing is everything. thing and that was a memorable one. You know, if you cover the game long enough, you, you have these sort of celebrity encounters. Samuel L. Jackson, I love this one. Oh, gosh. Am I allowed to say the word? Do you want me to go there? Absolutely, absolutely.

Okay. So this is one that I would not have expected. But, you know, there's certain tournaments beyond the four majors that, you know, that I'll remember that, you know, over, maybe over deliberate or you didn't. expect would be this good. But I tell everybody now, if you get a chance, go to the Dunhill links some here. If you're, you know, you would tell you, you could probably play as an amateur as a celebrity that you should, you should try to do it someday because it is one of the best experiences. I didn't play. I just covered it. But it's Kings Barnes, Carnusti, and St. Andrews,

the old course. So, you know, it's in October and the weather is pure St. Andrews. So Samuel L's the highest grossing, you know, movie actor of the world at this point. And he's playing as a celebrity. And you know, you've run into these celebrities. When they get the invitation to play at Pebble or at the Dunhill Links, they take it seriously because they're way out of their comfort zone. And they don't, as you or I, you don't want to be embarrassed. So they're hard at work on their games.

You know, maybe he's getting ready to play with, I don't know, you know, Colin Montgomery or Luke Donald or Lee Webb. This is probably 15 years ago. So it's 7.30 in the morning and I'm out there and the har, you know, is laying on top of the old course, the old gray tune. That's perfect setting, just what you imagine. I see this figure. I'm over by the range and I see this figure, solitary figure with a bag slung over his shoulder and a sack of balls in his left hand coming toward the range. And I had been at the gala dinner and was fortunate to sit at his table.

He's a great guy and loves the game like so many of these celebrities do. So I see him coming. And now he's not Samuel L. Jackson, the movie star. He's just a dude trying to not embarrass himself, trying to get a shit together for a round with a major professional player. But there's a lone fan behind the fence, just top of his long. Samuel! Hey, Samuel over here, Samuel!

And just nonstop would not back off. This went up for probably 20 seconds. Samuel doesn't break stride. Again, he's not there for that. He's there to try to find the middle of the face on a seven iron. But it goes on for 20 seconds. Samuel L! Hey, Samuel! And finally, he's had enough.

And he drops the sack of balls, just splat on the ground. And he turns around, and he is no longer Samuel L. Jackson. He's Jules Winfield from Pulp Fiction. And this falls under the heading of, give the fans what they want at all times. Samuel looks at him from a distance and says, I heard you, motherfucker! And then picked up his sack of balls,

and I apologize for the language. I'm just a reporter. There's a lot of stuff that's a little blue and it's a little off color, but you know, Sally, this is a reputation for being a game of integrity. in it honorable sport. It is, but I've met more degenerates,

card sharks, cigarette smokers, you name it, boosers. I met them all in this game. Yeah, that was Samuel L, give the fans what they want. I love that story. Last one I had from my list that I was going to demand you tell. The Graham McDowell story. So we do you get asked a lot?

Hey, Sally, who's the biggest jerk in the game? Who's the dick? Oh, yeah. Right? People are fascinated by that. And I typically punt because I don't, you know, I just don't want it to come back at me. I have to work with these guys, cover these guys. And I also, you know, I give everybody in this sport a few asshole days in a long career because it's a brutal game.

It'll beat you down over. over a long period of time. It just will to travel, the insecurities, the unknowns, I might lose my game, I'm on a bad run, a four straight cuts. I don't feel like talking today. Don't bother me. Whatever, whatever it is, you're entitled. You want to blow us off one day.

I got on my hate and say, hey, not today. I'm good with that. I'd prefer that it's not all the time thing, but I'm okay with that. And by the way, reporters, we have a few asshole days every now and then. So that said, I'm at an event with Graham McDowell, and we got 100 people in the room, and it was one of those specialty nights. They were hand-rolled cigars, and there was Woodford Reserve. And G-Mack doesn't need any of that for it to flow, but we had it rolling that night, and G-Mack was on fire. And he's a good dude, G-Mack, and that's a detour there.

Had he not gone to live? What might have been possible? Maybe still will be in terms of Rider Cup captaincies and commentary too. And commentary for sure. Maybe he still gets that. But in any event, G-Mack is a man's man. He has like a Russell Crowe gladiator vibe. You know, you want to follow him into whatever battle is taking place.

And so we're doing our bit, and here comes the question from the back of them. Hey, Graham, who's the biggest asshole out? Okay. So I punt that, and Graham says, you always got the great accent. He says, you know, I always like playing with Tiger. You know, Tiger was good to play with. But Stevie could kind of be a little bit of a prick. And by the way, prick in athletics,

is not always a bad thing. There are lots of great players through time that had the appropriate amount of prick in him to be great. Curtis, Hale, Raymond, you name it. And pros would understand that. And you just have to have a hard edge. And so Stevie could kind of be a prick.

Now, keep in mind, Stevie was at that point in time more than just a bag man for Tiger. He was a strong man for Tiger. He had, you know, there was an element of kind of security there. I'm his big, I'm his big dude. By his side, I have his back. Understandable. And Stevie did have the physical presence of like a professional wrestling heel.

You know, he, he was, you know, that, you know, like the undertaker. He had that kind of size and he cut an imposing figure. And so McDowell has everybody's attention with. And he says, yeah, but Stevie could kind of be a prick. And so we're playing the old Chevron, which was Tiger's tournament back in 2010. And we're tied. And we both hit good drives down the middle in the last hole. And I hit first.

And then hit a particularly good shot about 30 feet away. And Stevie gave me the brush by like you could feel him as he walked over to get Tiger set for his tea shot. And Tiger hits it in there about six feet. And the crowd's going crazy. And everybody thinks it's over. And as I'm walking up to the green. I noticed that Stevie took the bib off and I kind of jump in just to push them along. I said a little bit of disrespect to take the bib off before it's over.

Yeah, yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And I was making some putts back then. Graham had won the U.S. Open that year at Pebble 2010. Until I got up over my 30 footer and I ran it right into the middle of the hole. And I walked up to Stevie and I said, put the fucking bib back on. The place went nuts. I mean, this was Eagles score a touchdown with a minute to go in the Super Bowl to beat the Patriots. Like, the place went bat shit crazy. That's kind of story people like.

I love that. Story people like. And so the finish of the story is Tiger made his punt. And then we went to the next hall and I made Birdie and won. And so, you know, look, I great respect for Stevie. So it's just a story is all it is. and you had to be, you know, you had to be tough to be out there. You better, Stevie better tip his hat to that one. I think so, right? He got him.

He got him. Yeah, he got you good on that one. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, so, yeah, that was a good one. GMac is great storyteller GMAQ. And there's, he's central again later in the book. I do a deep dive on my partner, Paul McGinley, a chapter called Irishman. And, you know, in part, it tells the story of the 2014 rider.

But mostly it's about Paul. And I argue or make the case that Paul's one of the greatest success stories in the history of golf. So, you know, you read that and find out why I would say that. And then, you know, I had to write about Brandl, too, because, you know, the first section of the book, their 15 sections is questions and answers. And it's like an easy way into the book, which is your most memorable moment. that's Jack and the Draft, having a little fun, and who's the biggest jerk, and that's the McDowell's story. And then there's, I get asked all the time, hey, what about Brando?

What's Brandel like? And so I write, there's a little bit of a curveball. It's called Brandel Breaking Windows. And, you know, it's about his childhood. And you kind of get a sense as to why he became the person that he, that you see on TV. And I will say that the two of those guys, you know, I'm really fortunate to work with those two guys. They are absolutely as good as it gets.

Now, you may not always agree with what they say, how they position their arguments, whatever may be. I think they're great at what they do. And I do make the case. I think Brandl's one of the greatest desk analysts in the history of sports television. I really do. If you look at the breadth of his research, his willingness to, challenge convention to take on players when it may not be the popular opinion.

His ability to handle stuff on the fly, which is imperative in live television. He's funny. He's literate. He's a great way with words. He's funny, I think, in ways that he didn't get enough credit for. Again, you may not always agree with his points of view. But the job is to provoke thought. I think that's the job.

And he has an inherent understanding of how to do that. And so you'll never hear Brandel say ever, and you hear this on lots of other shows, it'll be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. No, no, no, no, no. That's a no no for me. It's your job to tell me why this is going to be interesting. And then I think the other thing, as long as we're on the subject, is what I don't know that people fully appreciate is that.

on the week of a lie from, Brandel's asked essentially to do something on Scotty Sheffler seven nights a week and then do it again a month later and then do it again a month later. So he is searching for original ways to demonstrate why Scotty is as good as he is. Brandel is hellbent on answering always the question of why. Why is this happening? And then Polly, I think, you know, Pauley came in and he didn't have the profile at the time. Yes, he made the winning pot at the Ryder Cup in the early 2000s. And yes, he beat Tom Watson as the winning Ryder Cup captain in 2014. But in America, he didn't have an enormous profile. But what we quit, he replaced Justin Leonard. What we quickly found out is, and I write about this, is A, he's, he's as good at reading a tournament as anybody I've

ever seen. Frank Nobola was great at it too. Like what is happening here? This and we have the advantage, especially Thursday through Sunday, because Paul comes on to our set after having done like six, eight, sometimes 10 hours on sky. He's seen it all. He knows which way the wind is going. He knows that that bunker was impossible. And he reads it extremely well. On top of that, you know, Paul's a great soul. The reason he's, it was so good at the Ryder Cup is because he's a uniter of people. That's his gift. And he came in and knew right from the start that Brandel was the guy who sits in the middle. You know, Brandel's kind of the star. And Paul had no ego. And but Paul has a great sense of humor and he has a really good feel for people. And so he, he knows his lane and

knows his role and he'll often look at me when Brandel's on a run and Brandel's going into whatever it is and Pauley would look at me with a little sly smile and say, I'm coming in here. I'm going after him. He does it in a really, I think in a playful way, but it's authentic and they have disagreements, but it never crosses the line. There's there's real respect and I think love for one another. I've never seen anybody work quite so hard as these two. And I'm not just tossing that out. I mean, you can't beat Brannel into work. You know, Monday and, you know, Thursday, if we were in Milwaukee, would be the same as Thursday at the Masters. He gets after it. He gives his shit about it. And he never wants to cheat the audience.

And again, I say that, knowing that people may not agree with him, that's not the job, really. The job is to explain what it is you're seeing. And I think he's as good as we've ever had in sports in that realm. I have said it 100 times. I'm so team Brandel. I definitely do not agree with him all the time. But gosh, he is a great entertainer. And you can attest to this.

He is. I've said this. You know, I always get asked who, you know, who are some of the best hangs. I'm like, man, you want to be seated next to Brandl at a dinner party. Like he's just, it's fun. He's just a lot of fun. He's great to debate. he brings a ton of energy to anything you're talking about and you know we we butted heads at times

over certain topics but he's not he's he's he's stubborn in what he believes but he's not a stubborn person in terms of um like that he won't listen to your viewpoint on it and and and not entertain it you know what i mean he likes to debate he's a he's a lawyer at heart but he's a litigator yeah his older brother bill is a superstar litigator lives in Texas. And I write about this in Brandel breaking windows. He had a big impact on Brandel. So you know, you've seen the legal pads. They're old school. He fills him up every day. It's a level. It's hard to fathom. Detailed graphs. He does it all in Penn. And it's like beautiful penmanship. And I'll see him. I'll look up. I always sit behind him in the trailer and the TV there.

and, you know, he'll turn around and we bullshit, you know, the days, the hang is what it makes it impossible to lead. The hang is so good in our trailer. You know, Brandel and Polly comes barreling in and there's always a laugh and always some commentary. And Brando has these super detailed charts on these legal pads. He fills them all day long. And I will see him every now and then, mouthing. silently mouthing to himself.

It's a rehearsal. It's the point he wants to make. And he's thinking it through. And you know, you're watching somebody work at a high level. And, you know, our producers, we have a great team of producers led by Matt Hegarty. And they really lean on Brandl for content. I mean, sit with him and see,

Brandon, what do he got? What do you want to do? And in a way that very few announcers I've come in contact with have ever done, and I always tell the new announcers who are coming off the tour to the booth. I said, you need to come in hot every day with three things. What are you hot for? You know, if we're playing a short par three this week, this is just an example. Give me Jim Furex three best short threes in the world, that kind of stuff.

what's your take right now today on DeShambo? And it better be a good one. And you've got to be hot for it. You've got to raise your hands like, hey, you've got to say to your producers, I have something I want to say about DeShambo. Brandl's got nine things, 11 things. Every day. I'm not, there's no exaggeration.

That he's hot for it. He's thought about it. He's up early with the coffee. He's thinking it through. He's done the research. He's gone to every site imaginable, data golf, whatever it is. He's made his case. He's made his point. And it's thorough. And it's, you know, again, you know, is it perfect all the time? No. Maybe get a little long time. Maybe. Did, you know, is this the same theme? Maybe. But, but again, you have to respect that he's asked night after night to fill it up. He is a, if this were basketball, Sally, he is the high volumes.

scorer. He is flat out getting 32, 34, 35 a night. And that, you know, you could say, well, oh, that guy might be a gunner. No. No. Brandl is at the center of a show that has been successful. I don't know to what extent. I'm not here to, you know, throw flowers at at our feet. That's not the point here. But the show's had a good long run. And, It has its place in the game. And that guy, do you agree with them or not, is getting 35 a night and has been for a long time. Oh, it's, he makes it. So I don't know.

I love it. I think you agree with me. I do. And my regret is we're usually on the air while you guys are on the air. So I have to catch the replay if I could, because I'm like you, after we've done a show, I can't go to sleep. Like you just, there's no, that's not an easy, you know, transition in there. So I catch your, your guys replays.

And I look forward to it, the music. that comes on in between breaks and everything. I love live from it. I think it's been, uh, appreciate that. Um, no, it's, it's great.

I love Paul, Paulie and, and Brandl going back at each other, you know, Brandl saying, yeah, Scotty, he's the modern day Corey Pave and Paulie is, yeah, Scotty drives at 300 yards,

Brandon. What are you talking about? Yeah, they're at odds over the golf ball. They were at odds in the US open. They were at odds in the US open over Scotty being a good win player. And Brandel says that a golf will tell you that Scotty is the best win player in the world. And,

And Paulie's like, yeah, but that's five to ten miles an hour. Scotty hasn't proven yet that he can play in heavy wind, 25 to 30. So that was a bit the week of the U.S. Open. So, by the way, that U.S. Open was, that was a bizarre Sunday. Yeah, man. I feel like uncomfortable about it, honestly. What do you think about? I mean, I'm curious because you're, you know, you're at the tip of the spear.

you were sort of a pioneer in new media and bringing golf kind of into the new world. And I feel like we have this sort of clash between new age and the proper old game. And nobody seems to know how to manage it. I don't think it's realistic to do an Augusta across the board where you can't have a cell phone. I think it's just you're going to lose fans. And there is some, you know, we all rail against a cell phone, but there is some value being at a turn. being able to film people and, you know, look back and slow-mo it and try to learn something from them. I'm going to get your answer.

I would just say, I do think at this point, the people that run the tournaments and the governing bodies, and even the players, I think, and those of us in the media probably have a responsibility to get on the platforms and get the message out. Something simple. Respect the game. Call people out. Throw them out when they've gone. out of bounds because I just I don't think that's where we we want to end up in in the sport where we're rooting against and I don't know if the slogan is don't be a jackass probably that's

a little too strong but respect the game something like that I'm curious where we're and yet we all celebrate the zaniness and the youthfulness and the energy at a WM Phoenix open that kind of thing So I'm curious where you think this is going and how would you handle it? Yeah, it just is, I don't want to say it's an unsolvable problem because I guess I just don't, there's just a little mob mentality aspect of it, right, of being able to go to a sporting event where you can get so close to players like you can in golf and being able to film yourself yelling something stupid at a player and thinking you're cool for it and posting it for all your friends is where all of it comes from, right? I mean, this stuff, you tell me, this wasn't going on in the early 2000.

I would grew up going to the Memorial Tournament. And that's the how people behaved, you know, there, you know, trying to get a rise out of players. But now it, now that you can record it and do it, it just seems to be something that has caught on. Those clips do get a lot of engagement on social media when people do post them. And that is the, you know, the social economy is big. And people live off that dopamine. And it's a slippery slope. And I don't know what the answer is other than I don't think this.

a problem that's going to be going away anytime soon. The Rider Cup did a lot of damage on that front, I think. And it, you know, you just almost plant this, you know, who was the first streaker at a sporting event? I don't know who it was, but it spawned a bunch of other people to go do it, right? And now I think that's kind of what's happening with golf of, it's hard because you want, you want, you always, this is where I find the balance tough of like I want the game to grow. I think I don't want to, you know, pull the ladder up.

I want to welcome people into the game. If you've never been to a golf tournament, I want you to. go and enjoy it and you don't want to cut it off from people and you don't want to have this dodgy attitude of, you know, polite golf claps and golf isn't fun because I think golf has grown a lot by, you know, a new age of people engaging with it. But with that comes with bad actors, and I don't know how to stop that. Well, I was going to ask you, they invite you, they say it's a PGA of America, USJ, they invite Chris Solomon sit around a table to address this issue. And let's be proactive. Let's come up with some ways that we could mitigate.

it no answers at all or or well i i don't think i have no answers i think that they're getting better and better at just kicking people out i mean if somebody says something kick them out um and i i i think it but i think that gets a lot of negative attention too that's that's you know i don't know what the analogy is there but it just is um it's a little stricane effect there of you know well now we're all everyone in the media is talking about you know kicking people out and just seems like our society as a whole over the last, you know, decade or two or whatever it might be is just trending towards so much more angst and so much more, you know, less decorum just in society,

not just golf. Like it just seems like people are more and more okay. Social media has made it more okay to just directly attack people and say very hurtful things. And that has bled into everyday society now. And so that's the part where I don't know if we have three more hours to break down. You could say it's more coarse than it's ever been. And I do think there is an economy built around, what do you think?

You know, you're in that business. I'm in that business. There's a referendum every eight minutes now. And this is why I think it's much more challenging for a modern athlete or performer. It's because they have to deal with that. It's, I don't like the way Wyndham hugged his girlfriend. What do you think? Yeah. It's not. It's what do you think of his outfit? Hey, he put on that jersey and can't. And it just, you know, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? And, and, you know, those of us on on the side that you and I are on, a cop to, to having thought about, hey, what could I say in this interview that would get, that would penetrate, that would become a headline. You know, what's my top line? What's the one that's going to land? Right. And so there's a bit that's an. That's an.

entire economy. What do you think economy? And I'll end with this. My oldest son, Jesse, his great kid, he said to me recently said, pop, he said, can anyone just shut the fuck up anymore? And I said, son, the answers no, it seems, you know. And as you and I, as you and I keep going. I know, I know. I can talk to you for hours. I know you got to run. I really enjoyed it. The book is called, Aren't You That Golf Guy? Thank you so much for spending some time with us telling some stories. And very good to know you over the years. And I look forward to catching up with you down the road. Let's tee it. Maybe it's sleepy hollow and continued success with no laying up you guys have had a phenomenal run. Thank you. I'll still come up and play golf with you for a day and come home. Same day. Let's make it happen. You're giving me pops. All right. Thanks, Rich. Take care.