No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1195: The Hidden Gems of Western Scotland with Jim Hartsell

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

Soly and TC are joined by our friend Jim Hartsell to discuss his new book “A Round of Scottish Courses” and his travels to Scotland to explore the hidden gem courses along the western coast. Support our Sponsors: Titleist Rhoback AT&T East Sands Golf Co.  If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. Johnny, that's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Lange up podcast. Sali here.

We have a conversation coming shortly. T.C. and I chatted with our good friend Jim Hartsall. He's got a book out. It's called A Round of Scottish Courses. Jim is a true pioneer in terms of Americans that have gone over to Scotland, made a ton of friends. uncovered and found some hidden gems of golf courses that are off the beaten trail and just different than what you're going to find on a top 100 list. So this is the hidden gems of Western Scotland with one of the most season travelers that we've known and just a dude that we just delight in talking to every time.

And we're going to see a lot of these courses upcoming in our Tourist season this fall. So be sure to check that out. This episode is also brought to you by Titleist, the number one ball in golf. You can go to Titleist.com and explore what combination of flight, spin, and feel is right for your game. With that, we're going to get right into the show, our conversation with Jim Hartzell. All right, ladies and gentlemen, Jim Hartzell, the illustrious Jim Hartzell, our old friend. Yeah. How are you, sir?

I'm honored to be back on with you guys. I'm doing well. You know, I didn't know if you'd let me own after the state draft, and you had Alabama in the bottom ten. But, you know, Neil came through and saved Bama from complete oblivion. So I owe Neil a beer the next time I see him. but no, you know, by the way, that one, that was so much fun. That one, but yeah, I'm doing great, man, just trying to get the book out there, thinking about my next trip to Scotland, and just happy to be talking to you guys again.

You mentioned the book, Around the Scottish Courses. If I may, it's an optimistic, fun, energetic romp through just some oft overlooked destinations in Scotland. and I think the journey itself, like it's kind of wrapping in 25, 30, 40 years of Scottish golf trips into one thing. And I loved reading it. It's one of my favorites. Well, just for the listeners say, Jim, can you give a little bit of background of who you are or what your pedigree is? I think you've got a pretty decent pedigree here to write a book about Scottish golf here. And people will hear why here shortly. But you hear that accent, you hear from Alabama, and the story of Jim Hartsell and the relationships you've formed in the country of Scotland is a, it's just a great, it always makes me smile.

It's an incredible journey you've been on in that country. Well, yes. I mean, I fell in love with it. I've written about this a good bit when I was a kid. I just watching the open with my dad, it was his favorite tournament and it became my favorite tournament. You know, back then, you know, you could only watch, I think, ABC showed it and it would only come on like the 12th hole, you know, on Sunday. And they'd show Saturday and Sunday, but it'd be from the 12th hole alone.

I fell in love with it. And the one I remember, and this is in both of my last two books, is the 77 open at Turnberry. And I know you guys have watched videos of that. And the course was just completely baked out. I remember thinking, man, this is the way golf is supposed to be played. And I cannot explain why other than it just was, very interesting to me. And it's kind of shots they were playing. And I was only nine or ten years old, but I was already hooked on golf. And that just did it for me. And my

dad, he said, we're going to go one year. We're going to do this sometime. And it was another, when I got out of, graduated from college, we planned the trip. He let me plan it. It was 1994. The first year I went. And we went down. And I've told this a lot, but I'd read Michael Bamberger's book to the Lynx Land, went down to, to Macrohanish, stayed for a week, then branched out from there to the old course and Karnoosti and all some of the bigger places. But I just, I met some people in that trip and that sort of became friends and got me, I joined McRhanish the next year, started going. And I just, it just developed from there, So, you know, it's amazing. I mean, I've got some

really, you've met some of these people. I mean, I've got some really good friends over there. I hardly have to pay for anything when I go over there. People let me stay at their house. You know, they, I mean, I, you know, basically I just got to get a car and a way to get over there. And I'm pretty much taken care of. And it's amazing for somebody from, that grew up and, you know, outside of Birmingham, Alabama and now lives in a small town in North Alabama. And it just, but it's something I love. And the country, I love the country as much as the golf and the people are just, you guys have been all over the world.

The people, you know, you just saw this in the World Cup where they just pretty much took over the World Cup when they came over here. They're just, they're just, they're just wonderful. So your book, like, you know, it's all over Scotland, but I think the, it feels like your spiritual home of sorts is out on the West Coast and especially the, you know, Mull of Kintyre and then just the exploration that being on the West Coast with all these islands and the Outer Hebrides and the Wee Islands and all of that entails. Like, just how did you, I guess, going to Macrohanish, that, first time and then to Dunaverty how did that blossom over the next 15 20 years like you know going from that first trip to your return trips yeah that's a good question because I love that

that's my favorite area the the West Coast and the and the Hebrides the islands and we went when we went to McRhanish I thought a gentleman introduced me to Dunaherty which I wrote about in the book I just in love with it. And I said, you know, this is where I'm, I'm going to come here, no matter what I do from now on, because you know, you guys know this. Once you get hooked on this, you just think about going back. As soon as you get home, I mean, you get off the plane and you're like, you're tired, but then the next morning, you're like, okay, when can we go back? I think it was, you know, it was the second trip where I was, you know, me, Tron, you and I have talked a lot over the years. I love the logistics of stuff.

I love like, you know, the planning of it. And so I was, that second trip, I was thinking, well, hey, instead of driving all the way down Kentire around Lock Lomond and down through La Kilpid and all that stuff, which takes about three and a half hours, you can take, hey, you can take a little ferry over to Aaron and just skip and then drive around Aaron and take another ferry over. So I knew nothing about Aaron. I was just looking at the ferry stuff. And I do nothing about Shuskin.

I don't even think people, people didn't even talk about. about Shishkin back then. But I looked it up and I saw that there's a 12-hole course. So I told my dad, I said, look, we're going to spend one night. We're going to, instead of driving all the way down, we're going to hop over to Aaron, and we're going to play this course Shishkin, and then we're just going to get the ferry and go. I said it'll take a day. We stayed at the hotel there, like the one in Blackwaterfoot. I can't think of the name of it now. But it, and I just thought, man, this is incredible.

and it was just unlike anything I'd ever played. It reminded me, and I think, you know, you and I have said that 12 holes is probably the perfect amount. And, you know, I was a lot younger then, but now as I've gotten older, I think 12 holes is a pretty good amount. But I just, I just, I fell in love with it, and it was just by accident because I was honestly just trying to find a shortcut, which it's a great shortcut if you don't want to drive as much. Because once you get off there at, I think you guys just took this ferry, once you get off. off at Clooney, it's about a nice hour, 50 minute or maybe a 50 minute drive down to Danavity and Macrohanis. So that's kind of how I found it by accident. And I just started going there and branching out from there. I mean, I eventually started going out to some of the other islands.

And I mean, the golf on these places is so wild and rough. And I just, I just love it. So I would say it's it came about through the logistics part of it, just trying to figure out how to get from one place or another. And then me, in me being a map freak, looking at maps and collecting all these old golf monthlies that in the back would have a little article about some hidden, they would call it Hidden Gym of the Month, and be an article about Caradale or, you know, mockery out on Isla, you know, stuff that you just don't, back then you didn't hear about. I mean, obviously there wasn't Twitter and there wasn't Instagram and there wasn't really even stuff posted online then. So it was just, you got magazines and kind of collected

articles. I think I showed you some of my scrapbooks where I collected all this stuff over the year, you know. So that's kind of how it started. So, all right, 94 and then what was the next trip back after 94? 96. It was two years when we went back. Yeah. I've probably been 20, over 20 times now. I had a A little stretch there when my kids were really young where I didn't get to go for two or three years. But I've been able to just luckily with my work and stuff, I've been able to figure out a way to get over there. And especially, you know, the last six, seven years, I've been going twice a year. I've been lucky enough to be able to do that. And, you know, it's just something that's become a part of my life.

And I just sort of planned it all year. Like I said, when I got back in April, I just missed you guys. not by much. And I started thinking about going back in August. So I'm going in about three or four weeks. How do you balance going to the places? Because I struggle with this a lot. Balance going to the places that you've come to love and you know you're going to have a great time at with the exploration and the curiosity and wanting to go somewhere new and not over indexing on one or the other. Yeah, it's new to you at this point. You know, what happens? Well, It's, you know, Scotland has 520 golf courses, I think.

That number is under dispute, but it's about that much. So I think I've played 110, 108. So I'm, there's still stuff out there, believe it or not. Now, I've played pretty much everything I want to. I say that. I've not been up to Shetland. I want to get up to Shetland sometime. But, you know, it's really just, I try.

And it's a good point, question, Tron, because it's hard. because I want to go to Aaron and I want to spend a few days on Aaron. I want to go to DeNarity and see my friends and play in an open competition or two. So I've got to do that. But I've gotten to where now I make sure I have at least one new course

and one new place in the trip. If it works out that I can get more, fine. But I just try to find one that I haven't played. I'm trying to, you know, you've given me this, a Grand Tully Hotel that I've not stayed at, which is up near Pit Lockery. I'm going to go stay there and I'm going to try to play. And I don't know if this is going to, I'm going to be able to pull this off.

But I've never played in Michael Bamberger's book, the six whole course, Achnaphy, that's kind of the homemade course that's up in the hills there. And I've written to Aalcne Free recently to see if I could get out there. And I'm going to try to do that. That's going to be my new one. If I can't do that, I'll probably pick up one. there's one or two in the airshire that I haven't played, believe it or not. So yeah, I try to, it's a tough.

And look, I've, I've been lucky to go to all these areas many times. And but you know, you do have things that you love. And I just, I can't, I have to spend a few days at Danerrety and I have to spend a few days on Aaron. You guys have been to Aaron. And it's magical. I mean, it's just, you know, it's just another world altogether. And so, but I do, I, I do want to have at least one. and sometimes more, but at least one new one that I can add to the list.

And it just really depends. It'll be from something you've told me or another friend. I get messages from people, please come here if you can. We'd love to have you. I'd love to host you. But, you know, I've been able to get to just about every area, except like Shetland and Orkney, way, way up there. I mean, that's basically, that's basically in Norway, as you all know.

I mean. We were at Tain, and they were having, The Orkney Golf Club and I think Eriske, like Eriske doesn't have a course, but there's a club. And they were playing a match against one another. I'm like, man, Hartzl needs to be at this, at this dinner. Because these are his people. I love being out on those islands. The people are so friendly.

And, you know, there's just, you've just been out to them recently. I mean, there's just, you're almost alone on the earth when you're playing some of these places. It's just incredible. But yeah, that's, but yeah, I try to, I still look for new things. I'll take roads that I don't, I've never been on. I mean, which can be dangerous in Scotland. You know, you think you're taking a shortcut and all of a sudden you're on a one-lane road for 40 miles and, you know, with passing places. But I've learned how to, fortunately, I can drive pretty well over there and, you know, but it can be intimidating if you're not used to it.

Yeah. Well, what, I mean, what is it about? the West Coast specifically, both Ayrshire, Aaron, Kentire, all these islands that really speaks to you even more so than, you know, like you have a great appreciation for

East Lothian and Fife and the Highlands, but what is it about the West Coast that pulls at you? I think it's the landscape and just the wildness of the courses. Just, you know, Dunaverty and so wild and McRahanish is.

I mean, Presswick, which is just one of the greatest courses on earth. And it's just, I wish they could still somehow have the open there. It's just, it's the landscape. It's so unusual. And the history to, Tron, I mean, you know, I think that's the history of the West Coast of Scotland. Scotland started on the West Coast. I mean, you know, people came over on boats from Ireland and, you know, it settled in

around Kilmartin Glen. you know, over 5,000 years ago. And the last several years, I've spent so much time going to these historic sites. And, you know, I'm an architect too. So I love going to look at this stuff. And just the history of it is just mind blowing. And like when you're out walking around Kilmartin Glenn or one of these other sort of ancient sites on Aaron or wherever,

it's just, it's very, I mean, you guys know me. You've read my writing. I get a little bit spiritual about stuff. But it is a very spiritual feeling to be in some of these places. It's hard to describe if you're out there when the sun's going down or in the morning or whenever it might be. That was originally what it was. And then just the people were so welcoming.

And they are all over Scotland. Look, I'm not trying to say there, but there's something about being down at Denavity or on air and that people just literally will do anything for you to make sure you have a good time. And so that's kind of what drew me to it. And the golf is just fabulous. I mean, I think you guys would admit the golf is different than the East Coast. the courses are especially in Kintyre and the islands they're rougher around the edges you know they're they're more they're quirky uh which i love uh i mean presswick is probably the most quirky championship

course in the world and i dearly love it i mean it's i just think it's brilliant so that that's part of it too you know sallie you talk about dun averty because i think that that's where but like i think when you're talking about planning a trip to the west coast i mean jim i don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like Aaron and Aaron Donaverty and then up to McRanish. Like that's that's the center of the maze. You can play a round or two in Ayrshire and then branch out and explore from there. But that's the non-negotiable. That's like the tier one. And solid, to your point from like some of our other pods that we've done on planning Scottish golf trips of like I think the tier one in in like on the west coast is different from the

tier one it's it's a spiritual subjective tier one yeah yeah it's a it's hard this is one of the harder harder pods to do i guess with like if we're going to title this how to plan a trip to western scotland uh we're gonna have somebody we have somebody here that's been i don't know how many times 30 plus times uh and done this and if you're if you've never been to western scotland to play golf i don't recommend you start at caridale and the outer hebrides and macra you know mackenhage maybe but like that you know you know you're you know, you're probably going to start somewhere on the airship coast. So if, if for reference, that's going to include the Trune.

Trune is, is like the staple there. Trun and Turnberry are the, you know, the top of the class there. They're the open road of courses there. They're the, you know, the courses that are most widely known in that area. You kind of get a little lower than that. You have Western Gales. Preswick, of course, the history there. Preswick has changed a ton, you know, over the years, but is,

is incredible history at that club, but it's not still maintained like an open road to a course is from an infrastructure standpoint. And then there's two courses at Turnberry. There's Robert DeBruce is the second course there. And there's, I mean, you T.C., you probably have, know more about the depth right around that area than I do from there. I've only played kind of mostly those courses from there.

But from that kind of hub of the West Coast within shouting distance. And if you're going to only base yourself in the West and you are looking for some adventure from there, you can head down. They basically ferry over, like you've said to the Isle of Arran, which if you're not looking at a map, how that works structurally, basically the western coast of the mainland is where you'll find Trune and Turnberry and Preswick and the city of Ayr, A, A, R there. But how it works west of there across the Firth of Clyde is the Isle of Arrne. and then from that aisle farther west is the mall of Kentire or the Kintyre Peninsula, which like the route to drive there to Jim's point, you know, he's kind of looking for a shortcut to get there. The route to drive there from Trune is a disaster.

I mean, you've got to go way up through Lock Lomond and the Trollsex National Park. Hope I'm saying that right. It looks like all the way around to get onto this little peninsula. Or you could take the ferry route, put your car on the ferry and drive around Aaron and get down to Campbelltown. And you got to book it beforehand. Like you got to book it way out of the van. It's the fair.

Show up at the ferry. Yeah. Yeah. So if you have the appetite to get weird, you know, and to explore and to drive and to travel and to get to some more remote parts, there's no better place to do that. I think that's that that comes from. But at the same time, like, I think some of the best feedback we've ever heard from people is when they, they messengers after going to Cullen or after going to, you know, I wouldn't

say brores as far off the beaten path as maybe as it was 10 years ago or so but uh you know i i would never gone here if it wasn't for you know i every a lot of people know about the main courses but if you're looking for a a golf experience that's that's the whole thing too with like i get you know i i i've one friend in mind always when i when i think about these things that's my buddy sean he always texts me like should i play dun barney or should i play this and he doesn't listen to any of our content and I'm like that's how a lot of people think about the trip they're just looking to play all the best courses and I try to get people and I know T.C. you're even better about this than I am and Jim, you're the poster boy for this of like the point of traveling to another country to play golf

isn't entirely to play all of the top courses on the list there. And I when I go to a new region, I want to do that. So I'm guilty of this as well. But there's there's, there's, there's, The recent Toras season that we shot and that people are going to see this fall is just re-it's almost reimagining golf is how I would describe it, Jim. Because we walked off Whiting Bay on the Isle of Aaron and just said like there's there was there was not one 420 yard dog leg left par four with bunkers on both sides of the fairway. Like that's that's how a lot of golf in America is. And there wasn't one of those holes. And at no point was I like, oh, this isn't real golf as I'm playing it. And the entire, I guess, the thesis, I guess, of this episode and a lot of the encouragement

we're going to give here is like, go experience what you might call weird golf, but that's just golf to a lot of people in that area. And that is, there's a whole culture around these places and the game in this country that we just have a continually growing appreciation for. And into your point, Jim, you're 30 plus years into doing this. You're still discovering new places, trying new places. and experiencing the depth of that culture. I'm sure we'll get into this a little bit later, but Whiting Bay, my God, you know,

I don't even know how to talk about it. It's hard to talk about. I mean, you know, I was so happy when I knew when you guys were planning, Tron and I were texting a lot over the months. And toward the end of it, I said, man, you've got to go to Whiting Bay. And he's like, yeah, I'm going to figure it out. And when I found out you guys were going, I just knew you'd love it. I mean, it's not, I can't think of anything else really to compare it to.

I mean, but as you say, what a wonderful golf club and friendly people and just so much fun, so many different shots you have to play. It doesn't matter, and I know I sound like a broken record about this stuff, but it's got nine par fours and nine par threes. I mean, that's ridiculous. It's just, and the whole, the 12th and the 15th, some of those holes, the eighth, I mean, you're talking about all world. I'm trying not to cuss on this on your podcast.

You can cause away. Some of the fucking best holes you're ever going to see in your life. I mean, the eighth, the first time I played the eighth, I was like, oh, my God. I think I even texted you a picture, Tron. And then, you know, the 12th and the 15th, when you come over the hill and you see the Firth and the Holy Isle and you have, you play, and the shots you can play, I mean, you can drive the green or you know i don't know it's just and it's again it's i don't even know what whiting bay is 40 it's probably 4800 yards or i don't even something like that maybe 5 000 i don't know

but yeah yeah i just that kind of stuff man i get so excited about it and i and the and i just i'm so happy that you guys got to do that this time but yeah there's a lot of that on the west there's more of that on the west coast than there is on the east and that's not meant to be a slight but it's all over Scotland and it's and again it's you could sit in the the club at house at whiting bay for an hour after you're done have a sandwich and a beer and talk about what your favorite hole was and you're going to have two or three members come up to you and i don't know it's it's everything i love about golf and um you know just even getting to the find in the clubhouse you think you're driving through a i mean you don't even know where you're going you think

you're driving into somebody's backyard or something i mean yeah it's it's It's crazy. I mean, it's just nuts. I mean, but it's the kind of stuff that I dearly love about golf. And we got too much homogenous stuff in the world. I'm thankful that we've still got stuff like that. Summer golf season is here. Our closets are looking a lot like the Roeback website right now. I got a shout out Roebuck's lightweight, looper short. This is exactly what you need if you play in hot weather climates. It's got the comfort of a gym short, but it looks like a proper golf short. It's got a stretch waistband, but it's got belt loops, a real button and fly. It's very lightweight. If you struggle with swamp ass, this is for you.

I'll actually wear this to the gym and then just wear it straight to the range afterward. You don't need to change shorts. And it's not like wearing, you know, a pair of stiff khakis in the gym as well. They got a ton of great colors with it. Haven't found a bad one. Second, the Roeback Tailwind Polo is great for everyday wear. I find myself throwing on all the time. It's soft.

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your first order through the end of the week. Check out Roeback and stop laying up. Rowback.com, code NLU back to the pod. I have undying faith and trust in the both of you, but going down that road a little bit, a teeny tiny bit, I was like, where are TC and Jim taking us today? Where are we going, what are we doing here? What are we doing here today? My faith was, the faith in trust was, you know, justified here by, by within a couple of holes very quickly. But the pulling up was just like, whoa, what are we doing here today? Yeah, I think even on Aaron, like you can get, you know, you can get like all right there's schiskin cori whiting bay we've just talked about real quick tc can i just i want to butt this in of of if you read jim's book you you figure this out pretty quickly but i'll say

like we are afforded all of us here listening to this and all of us that uh you know have got to experience some of this and are able to share the tales from it is the the great fortune we have you mentioned this jim of the of the twitter and instagram and the and the sharing of this like when you showed up at whiting bay for the first time you did not i imagine you'd never seen a picture of it. I imagine maybe you had, maybe you, it's probably word of mouth of, you know, in a kind of a secret network you're getting of that. But all that to say, like, we're very fortunate all of you to be able to hear the tales and the places that, uh, the gym has been that are, that are worth going. Because that was something that was not afforded to you other than, you know,

your little cutouts from your magazines back in the 90s. Like it's just, it's very, very cool to have this kind of in stored away and just a couple easy, easy to reach places for, that can forever be referred to. Yeah. I mean, that's the, great thing about social media. I mean, I just, a lot of these places, and, you know, I've been on Twitter for since it started and, you know, get message from people, hey, I really love for you to come by here. This is, this is, you'd love this place. I mean, that's what happened with, with Averfall, you know, just, for one, I mean, just

William, who I think maybe, I don't think you met Tron, but has maybe corresponded with you. He was the club captain. Yeah. Several years ago, he sent me a message on Twitter. he said, I love your writing. I love your books. You understand Scottish golf. I'd love for you to come by here sometime.

It's any way you can work it in. And I was, I'm one of the trying to get back to the airport one trip. I went up there and I'm like, God Almighty, this is magical. I mean, and nobody knows about it.

Nobody comes by here. And so that's kind of, yes, I mean, I find out through people just contacting me or, you know, now, of course, you know,

I mean, I'm so crazy. I'm, I'll get on Google Maps and just, and just throw Google Maps and just look for stuff. Like, this looks like a golf course and just try to, I mean, seriously, you find an area of Scotland and you, you'll find one and you said, man, that looks interesting.

What's the topography like? And so I've done a lot of that. But people I've met have been, you know, Whiting Bay, Greg, several years ago. I mean, I didn't, it's, I didn't play Whiting Bay until probably, honestly, I have to admit, probably four or five years ago. and Greg said, hey, I was playing Shiskin and Corey every time I came over in Mockery Bay, another little course I love.

And he said, man, you ought to go to Whiting Bay. It's right down your alley. He said, you know, you'd love it. And I went, and of course he was right. I mean, after that, what is that number, the little par three up the hill, the green's about the size of a hubcap. I mean, it's just, I just started laughing. I'm like, okay, I understand.

So, yeah, I mean, it's just word of mouth. and you know that's that's one of the things about this book these places need visitors to survive you know aberful needs visitors to survive more so than the places on errand even that's part of my mission as much as i love writing about these places i want people to find out about them and take a little side trip to aberful or take go over to whiting bay if you're going to go to erin but it's just it comes from all and i can't i can't go to all the places people ask. I know you guys are, I know you must get email after email. Man, could you guys please come by here on tour or sauce? And I know it's hard. You want to, you want to help people. You can't do everything. And, you know, but you know, every once in if you can work one in, it turns out to be something you loved. And, you know, I'd like to try to help them. So. Well, we, we heard stories when we were over on Aaron of you, you, you're going to go search for lost golf courses out there. Well, what? Yes. How do you do this? Well, I,

love there's some good stuff in the book about that too like you just sitting there at this at this lady's kitchen table uh Greg being like well Greg you know Greg I mean he stops we're going up this dirt road in perm mill which is sort of halfway between lecranza and shiskin and uh just single track dirt road through farmland and we're in the world are we going and um you know we come the road just goes right between these two houses like literally the houses are like on the edge of the road and this old lady's looking at her front door. And Greg says, hold on, stop. I'm going to ask her where the golf course was and get out. And, you know, she's looking at us like we're kind of half crazy. And but she says, yeah, it's just, it's just right up here. You'll see the old golf house.

Just another few hundred yards. But yeah, that I'm fascinated. I sort of call it, um, golf course archaeology. Just, you know, Aaron had 12 courses in, you can debate the dates. But in the, in the early 1900s, there were, were 12 courses on this island. And I just got in my mind. I want to go to the site of all these courses. I want to write about it and try to find out what they were like. And so I started several years ago when I started, I had the idea for this book.

I started trying to collect photos of these old places. And they really don't exist except on old postcards. And so that became my original idea for the book or the imagery in the book was collecting these old postcards. I mean, the only place in the world that you're going to find a photo of Pern Mill Golf Course, which closed and probably existed from 1895 until 1940. I think the war pretty much did it in, is you're going to find it in a couple of these postcards that were made for tourism. So I started collecting that. And then when I'm several years ago, Greg took me, we spent a day.

Jake was with me, my son. And Greg took us around to these sites. We got, he got, I got him, he got permission from the farmers. You know, they're all farmland now privately owned. And it's just fascinating. You can see how great these places would have been. And I don't know, like the one we, Corey Cravey, we spent, try, you would just literally die if you saw the site of this place.

I mean, it's, it's like a cross between Shishkin and Whiting Bay. And we, the farmer let us go down. And we tried to, we actually recreated one of the photos from the, this postcard from 1920 or so. We got Jake to stand where this guy was. And it's amazing to, I just, to me,

that's fun. I don't know why. I just, I guess some of my architecture background and just trying to, but it's also the fact that this tiny little island had 12 golf courses. And y'all've been around it. You've been there. That's,

that's ridiculous. I mean, the fact that they've got, they've got seven now is still ridiculous. And that chapter was one of my favorites in the, book going to these sites and i'm still honestly i've that i'm thinking my next book i may expand that chapter into a full-blown book um i've got people that i've met over there that are looking for other stuff that they they know people that might have stuff in their attic or whatnot and

it's just it's just fun um to try to because these were good golf courses and they were they were clubs and and and the war did a man the what happened was in the the when the the war started they the golf courses were closed the government took them over for um plant crops whatever you want to call it and uh they never some of them never came back they just didn't recover and that's and that's really what happened to the ones on aaron that are not there anymore i mean even aaron like it's it's somewhere i've been to aaron i guess four times now um i thought when i went with you jim that you know like oh man this is such a cool place you know, probably not going to be back here for, I might be back here once more in my life.

I've been three times since in the last four years. And it's, but even Aaron, it's one of those things where it's like, we drove past Lamash five times on this last trip and I still haven't played Lamash or I still haven't played, you know, Macri Bay or I haven't played La Cranza. And it's, you would love Lucranza. Yeah. I mean, yeah, but it's one of those things of like there's just so many layers here to the West Coast to where like it's like it you could spend a lifetime, uh, taking ferries and just and just going, you know, like there's like it's there's just so, there's so much depth, I think and there's so many, it's truly a quest for a lifetime. And then that's before you even get, get too far out and there's all these other, I mean, shit, even one of the, the, um, what is it, great Cumbra, Millport. Milport is great.

Yeah, the little course there. And I'm like, that's a, what, a 10 minute ferry off the mainland? 10 minute ferry over to the island. The town is the little town of Millport is great. And it's a James Braide course that literally is untouched from since 1910 or whenever he designed it. Incredible. I've gotten to do that. I mean, you don't know, you don't hear about those kind of places.

And finding a braid course like that that nobody has done anything to it. It's literally the way he laid it out. It's just, it's like, I think I've called Aaron a living history museum of golf or of Scottish golf. And that's what it is to me, because you've got so much variety. You've got lynx golf at Shiskin.

You've got hillside golf at Whiting Bay. You've got Glen Valley golf at Corey, which is just unbelievable. Brodick is kind of parkland, but on the water. And it's just all there. And it's all up and down the, it's all over Scotland,

but it's especially all up and down the West Coast. And like you say, you can always find something, something new and different. And that's where I think, I think on our trip, like even for me, it was, hey, we're not playing all links golf. We're playing a bunch of mountain golf or, you know, Parkland stuff and, and Sally, like, I'll leave it with you. It's just like how good that variety was,

how much, how much of a perk and a feature that was, not a bug. Yeah, I mean, what I love about playing links golf. There's a lot of things I love about it, but it's the, you know, creativity required in shots, less something less than the aerial game, obstacles in weird places, funny bounces, having to use some creativity, not thinking as much about your golf swing and thinking about how the land is going to affect the shot. There's creative ways of getting a ball into a certain place and making sure it's moving the right direction when it does land. All that is present in a lot of these places, right? You don't have to be by the sea for that. It's sometimes not as firm, but then, you know, you find

certain patches at Corey that you don't expect to be firm. And sure enough, like, you get a little punch driver on a little short part four. And it runs all the way over the green because it's just if you hit the right trajectory, you're going to get the features of the land and do all these things. And that I just, I get there and I just start picturing all these different shots, all the different clubs I can use. And I don't think about is this, you know, seven iron going to, you know, land 188 or 182 like I do when I go play golf, you know, outside my door here in, uh, in Jackson So again, it gets to that like, dude, yeah, if I was going for the first time, what do I want people to go experience?

Go experience links golf. But if you're looking to get past the, you know, the breadth and depth of those offerings, there's a lot, a lot to be found and explored and experienced. And some of these places, too, like I think not specifically, you know, somebody's kind of off the beaten pad, places that are hard to get to, maybe not as much. but it's hard to play 36 holes in a day like at Turnberry and Trun. Like you're just not going to do that. Like that's,

as I'm getting old to that, it's expensive. It's expensive. It's hard. It's hard. Something like, you know, we played what,

we played Shiskin and Whiting Bay on the same day. Is that, do I have that right? Like, and that didn't feel like too much at all. Schiskin's 12 holes. Whiting Bay was a walk and it's 18 holes, but it's,

you know, par 63 and it's not, uh, there's something too. like the days are long, and if you're looking to knock off a couple different experiences, knockoff's the wrong phrase. If you're looking to go enjoy some golf in a couple different places, experiencing two places in one day that aren't going to kill you,

might be a better day than experiencing one top great 18-hole 7,000-yard golf course. I agree with that. I mean, as much as I love Trune and Turnberry and these, these courses are hard, and they will beat you up. And look, I think people should play them. And I'm not trying to discourage that. They're brilliant. But, you know, it wears you down and you can't do, like you said, you can't do 36.

I mean, you know, I've always said, like, I'll do this when I go over in a few weeks. And, you know, I'm in my 50s. I mean, I play, I'll walk Corey and Shishkin as 21 holes. I'm not sure there's a better day of golf than that, honestly, in the world. You know, 21 holes, the morning at Corey, the afternoon, have lunch at Shiskin. go into the, the pub there at the hotel after, after you're done at Chiskin and you're set.

And you're not, and you feel, I think I've written about this. And I've talked to you about this, Tron. You almost feel energized after that. I don't know how to explain it. You know what I mean?

You're not, you feel like, man, I'm just, I'm energized. I just, I don't know, you're not.

It gives you energy. It doesn't, it doesn't take it away. And I don't know. It's just, I totally agree. And I, and just back real quick,

I used to be a little bit of, of a snob in the early years about I've just playing links courses why am I going to come over here and not play a lynx course I mean but I finally realized I went to Glenn Eagles one year and played the Queen's course and I'm like oh my God what am I what have I been denying

myself here you know you've got these places boat of garden these just brilliant gallery yeah yeah just the stuff is just crazy good and it's not and I understand I mean look I default to the links stuff as well but there's so

much variety there in the mountain golf and the heathland golf and um you know so yeah i don't be don't be discouraged by the course not being on the ocean because you know you're liable the views that say somewhere like boat of garden or just just beyond belief so and and abrifool you just been to aberful i mean some of the pictures you took at aberful good god i mean there's some of the best photos i've ever seen you that you take to be quite honest that was that was the fourth golf course I played that day and I went out thinking all right I'm going to have a little look around here and you know I mean it's it's it's in the foothills of the tracics there and it's it's a big walk and I remember texting jim on like the second hole I was like oh yeah okay now I see why and that's not even up you know up the hill

yet and then I get up to five six seven and I'm like holy shit you undersold this place yeah you took a on the fifth that i just it looked like it could be on the cover of you know golfer's journal or so i just i mean that was just with my life i know i know i know i know that's what i'm saying it's just it's ridiculous and averful i don't even know what it is now 20 pounds 25 i don't know um but yeah that was the only person on the course yeah and it's you know the sun's going down and you're looking out towards lock lomen and all that stuff but jim i think like the thing that and this comes through and you're writing a lot and that's why i love this book so much is because you it's about the journey and it's about like the act of traveling not necessarily

the act of getting to a destination or you know playing this place and checking the box it's like no like i hey i came on this trip to play this golf course and here's the six other golf courses i played along the way that i wasn't even expecting to play and i think that there's something about the dun aberties and the you know the schiskins or the aberfoils that they're not going to beat you up and they allow you to have the energy to go travel and to you know you know like like like like jim when we went to uh aisle of seal of course or you know stopping through open or um like i mean some of these places we're not even playing but you're just like you're you're you're so energized and you're so excited to explore and and for the drive and for the little sandwich places along the way or

little pubs because you feel like you know like you're not i think when you're playing the big championship 36 whole days there's just not a lot of energy for other stuff and you got you know you got to leave that in i mean you know you've got to do that i mean you know you're a bit of a foodie but you know the food is wonderful in scotland i mean that that green seafood hut in oben that i know you've been to that we've been to yeah it's right the i mean the stuff has just come out of the water an hour before you eat it probably. I mean, it's just, and it's wonderful, and it's just a little shack near the ferry terminal. And, yeah, you could spend a day walking around open and just

sitting and looking at stuff. So yeah, I mean, you give yourself, that's part of my, I try to, in both of my books, even when Revelation comes, that was one of the blessings of that trip where I was over there for such a long time was I didn't really have a schedule. I mean, I just, I would get up and I would, you know, I would be going like, okay, I'd have a destination. Like, I'm going up to Durness, but along the way, what am I going to see on the way to Durness? And if I saw a sign, like I saw a sign for Isle of Sky, I think on that trip and went over there and played the course, the nine-hole course there that's wonderful. You know, so just if you're able. And I know, yeah, right on a lot there.

Yeah. And it just, you know, it's, if you're lucky. lucky enough to be able, and I granted, I'm not going to say it was, luck was involved, but just because there was a terrible reason I went over there for the trip, but I was, I was fortunate to be able to stay for so long. And I really just did what I wanted. And I would go, find, I'd see a sign, and I, I knew there was a golf course. I mean, Garlock, and I didn't plan to go to Garloch, or Locke Heron, or I was just on the way to Durness. And I didn't really plan to play Ray and Wick.

I was just on the way from Derness down to Brora. But I'm like, okay. And I didn't even have, you know, that's the beauty of going at certain times of the year is you don't have to. And you don't have to plan too far ahead. And also a lot of these places you can just, you can just drive up on the day and play. You don't have to write a letter. That's such an underrated element. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Just being able to rock up versus, you know, hey, if you don't get a tea time at Dornick or. or, you know, or, or, or, uh, or trune or somewhere, you're, your, your SOL for, for 18 months. But it's, you know, it's, yeah, it's truly like, all right, like, oh, you know what, like this place looks awesome. Let's just pull over the side of the road and play it, you know. The day I played Ray golf course, which is a wonderful braid course up north,

almost to John of Groats, I saw one other guy on the course. A guy played through me on the second hole or third hole. I remember talking to him for a minute, didn't see another soul out there. And this is a fabulous golf course. I mean, it's a James Braid. Another one of these braids, it's really untouched. And there's an experience to be found in these places. And a lot of it, like you say, I mean, it takes a lot of the pressure off the travel part of it too.

Because, you know, you all know, you have to book Turnberry and Trune and the old, you have to book these things, Muirfield, a year ahead of time at least. And a lot of these places, you can just say, you can just show up and play. I mean, as much as Dunaverty gets a lot of more play. now. I looked at the T-sheet the other day and there was just you could you could have played any almost any time. So yeah. Let's kind of work our way out from the coast. Let's go up and down the airship coast, even down to we can include stuff a little bit farther south of there as well. And then kind of work our way out. We've talked a lot about Aaron, talk a little bit more about

kin tire and then we can talk kind of work our way out to the northwest and talk about all these other places along the way because i think it's it's one of those things like if somebody's gonna do like i feel like we're giving people ingredients for a trip all right here's you know here's the here's your stock here's your base for uh air sure you know whether it's uh so like like like jim what's your let's say you were just going to air sure what what are your can't miss non-negotiables be in the top of the list there. Preswick would be the top and probably Western Gales. And there's a public course in Air called Arab Belal that I really like.

I would add that. It's just to get so you can kind of see a true public course. I like Barassi. You know, I would think about playing Barassi. But you've got so much there, Bogside and. Bogside, a couple of those made my, made my eclectic or my dream 18. I saw that.

I saw that. I was happy. I was proud of you for that. But there's just so much there. But I mean, to me, you've got to play Preswick. The Trune,

I would say the Trune public courses are great. Lock Green and what is the other one? Darley, I think the other one's called. So you can, now they are so popular and they're so booked up. But you can get a tea time. You can get off there.

But I would say Presswick, you have to play in Western Gale. I love Washington. Yeah, it's hard to argue against. Yeah, yeah. It's hard. It's going to be like it'll beat you up a little bit, especially if the wind's up. It is hard.

You know, Trune, I think Trune has moved up, honestly, in my estimation over the years, it used to have kind of a reputation of this dour, you know, place. I don't see it that way. I think the last opened, the last couple of opens have, I think it's, I think it's solidified its place as far as I'm concerned in the rhoda but I yeah I think you had to start with press and oh I would hate to leave this presswick st. Nicholas too price I was gonna that's what I got press with St. Nicholas is great and I've got some good I've met some wonderful people there it is a historic club and it's got some great golf holes and it's not very expensive I think

it's it's probably 70 pounds to play and it's it's a it's a brilliant golf course so I didn't I'm glad I was about to say that but Presswick, Press at St. Nicholas. And then you can't go wrong. I mean, you want to add, you know, the Turnberry, you know, it's hard to play. Turnberry is so expensive. But, you know, there's another course. Well, you can, we're getting kind of out of the range.

But, you know, further down Port Patrick and Stront Rare are not that far past Turnberry. You could almost, you could almost work them in. I love those. Those are more headlands, like more kind of down the coast. St. Medan's, Port Patrick, Stranarer, more kind of up on the, yeah. Yes, they are more headlands. Strawn Rare is kind of a mixture of headlands and sort of Heathland, and it's Braids last course.

But that little area, if you can get down there and play St. Medan and Stroner and Port Patrick, attack that on to being an Ayrshire, it's not a, I mean, it's not more than an hour, hour and a half drive to get down there and port patrick is a stunning little seaside town um so that that was a place that uh i think after i left you that when we went five or six years ago um or however we did the film it's been about three or three years ago now um that's where i went after i left you at um at on air and i went down to port patrick and loved it um so yeah there's just it's a

cliche but you can't it's hard to go wrong but I would I would never skip Preswick. That would be the one that I if I was going to be in Arsure, I just I just wouldn't skip Preswick. Presswick's such a welcoming club too. So friendly. I think it's going to be the you know, it's this historic, you know, kind of blue blood place and you think and I found Mirfield to be the same thing.

Like you show up and like you truly are a member for the day and they like it's just a wonderful dining room with that big window looking out. It's just a really hospitable group of people. 100% so friendly and for such a historic club. I mean, well, they treat everybody this way, but I mean, I've been treated so well there over the years. And I've got a couple of, I've got a really good friend who's one of the main caddies there who has been great to me. And I just love it because I love the history, but the holes are great. And the course is in always such pristine condition.

I mean, I'm not a huge condition person. but when somebody has a course so spotless and perfect, I take my hat off to them. I mean, it's perfect lengths condition. It's a golf mecca. You can't, but,

you know, start with Presswick and then, you know. If you play Presswick, I think you understand golf. Yeah. Like you understand how it developed and why it developed. And it brings you back to the soul of it.

We're talking about it on our pod of the day. We think that they should have a, a women's open at Presswick. 100% the coolest thing ever so they've had uh they did have the british amateur there within the last 15 years maybe i think that was the last big thing they had was the british ham that you know you've been out there they added some teas i mean they've made it as long as they can but it's still even with these teas that these ridiculous teas they put in in a few places i think it's still 68 6900 at the most and the ball row i mean it just you the ball just rolls forever and ever and ever if you

going in the right direction. You could hit a, I mean, I, I have hit literally a 450 yard drive at Preswick on the 13th. I mean, on the 12th, the par 5. And I'm not making this up. I mean, it was just dead downwind. And I just nailed it. It got up in the jet stream. And my caddy, he's, he jumped up and he said, he said, you're not going to believe

where this ball is going to end up. And I think that, that par five is 540 or 550. And I'm not a, I'm an old man now, but I, I had a wedge into it. I mean, take up now, granted, if you're playing the other direction, you're going to,

you're going to be lucky to reach the green in five shots, but that's just, that to me is, that's just the fun of playing in Scotland. I mean, you just got to laugh at all. You got to take what the conditions give you. That could be anything.

When we were at Denver in April, we had hail blowing sideways, and then the sun came out, and then it was rain, and then the wind was blowing 25 miles an hour. And we were just laughing the whole time. And, got a if you if you're if you're if you're not able to withstand that kind of thing then you don't need to

you don't need to go over play you need to stay here and play need not apply yeah yeah uh what all right so barassie i've never played there i've heard it can be polarizing because there's a lot of dog legs right mm-hmm like they've got they rerouted some of it and it's well it's got it's got 27 holes the original nine which i love and i can't think of what they call that original nine now not hillside something but um and it's but they've they they combined at some point they did redid some of it and combined it with some of the other 18 it reminds me it's got some holes by the railway uh just like trune what's the railway hole at trune 11 maybe uh yeah um they've there's a couple of holes like that that are really good i i like barassi and i have to admit i'm

i get i get influenced by just how friendly people are sometimes the club is so friendly and the general manager there is a great guy and he's really tried to build it up that's why it is that's why you travel right yeah it's not just about the golf course well they've got a Walker Cup room there they have there's been four Walker Cup players that were members at Barassie you'll love this pool Tron Gordon Sherry was was one of them the the great Scott who never quite made it I try I can't think of it but he's the one that jumps to mind he the guy that won the Scottish amateur maybe in 95 or something and then just kind of faded out but um

or won the British amateur um and uh but anyway they've got a great sort of history there I love it I think it's got it reminds me of Trune it's not um it's got some quirky holes too and but I probably lean toward it more just because of how friendly the people are there what about Glasgow Gales that's kind of right there next to Western Gales I've never played that one. I have not played that one. I have to admit, it's one of the few in airshard that I have not played. I have heard nothing but good things about it. It's a fairly traditional club from what I understand. I've talked to people that have played it, but I have not played that one. I probably need to get by there. And then, Sally, I know you've played Dun Donald. I've never played it. I've watched

it a lot on the, you know, whether the women's Scottish or, you know, kind of a, just like Kyle Phillips, right? Kyle Phillips, yeah, it's a, it's a fine golf course. Again, kind of just flies in the spirit of almost everything we've talked about for the last 55 minutes of, yeah, it's not overly showy. It's not, it's just, yeah, it's a modern golf course. It's not contrived. It's not a bad golf course.

It's just not, it's really, really, really, really hard to execute. That's where I would say like Castle Stewart's in a class of its own in terms of like, blending a modern links course into the natural Scottish landscape. Castle Stewart feels modern and it's not in this region, to be clear. But everything else has just kind of felt like a weird made-for-Americans kind of experience. And it's just so hard to recommend something like that when I feel like you're truly missing out on the purpose of traveling to Scotland when you end up at some of these places. Kings Barnes, I still think clears the bar for me.

Like it is, I know it's not your favorite TC, but Dun Donald is not in the same category as Kings Barnes, if you ask me. Like it falls. It doesn't have the scenery. Yeah, it falls woefully short of Kings Barnes to the point where when somebody has done Donald, I get a lot of emails and questions from friends and whatnot of here's our it. It always has done Donald on it. And I feel bad for the people at Dun Donald when I say like, I was like, I would say, like, I would say. up something else in. If I was you, I would do something different. You're going to have a more memorable experience, probably doing something that's a little bit off the beaten path.

Well, I tell you, along those lines, I mean, I've played Kings, I played Kings Barnes two weeks after it opened, believe it or not. And I just, I'm not, I don't lean toward those courses, but I understand people that love them and I respect that. I'm really excited for our mutual friend, Rob Collins doing the new the new Struy course at Dornock. I want to see what Rob does with something like that. I mean, you've hit the nail on the head, Sally. It's hard to, one of the hardest things is to make something look old or like it's supposed to be there.

It takes a really special talent. And I think Rob can pull it off. I don't know what he's, I know they're working on it. But I'll be, I'll be excited to get up there to see how, because, you know, when you do these new courses, I mean, even Mac Dunes, which a lot of people love, and I like, it's probably unfair criticism, but it's hard to make them feel like Denavity does or Mac or Hanish does or, you know, or Presswick. It's just, and maybe that's just the fact that something that's been there 130 years is out is going to be, you know, it's just going to be, it's just going to be different, you know, But it'll be interesting. I can't wait to see what Rob does up there.

And I can't wait to get up there. And I've not played Dornick in a few years. But I want to play his new course whenever it gets done. It's, it's, yeah, it's, you know, a lot of the quirk that comes from these, these old courses is just like, well, yeah, what do you, of course it's a blind shot. We didn't have like bulldozers to move the, you know, but now if you do it, you're kind of like, are you being a little too cute? Like, yeah, we have the ability to kind of do.

what we want now and it's just that charm factor of that's that's just the challenge of doing a modern course really it's not um yeah it's it's it's hard to execute um that when yeah as much as i love like i love blind shots like i love the fourth hole at denaverty but if somebody tried to build the fourth hole at denaherty now that yeah people would say they're out of their mind they'd say you're crazy you're this is a joke what are you doing but but when you're there you're like man This is just, this is pure fun. I mean, it's just, you know, and, and it's, and you stand up there when you get on top of that dune, you're like, this is perfect. This is a perfect green site.

But it's also hard to create a lot of those places, you know, were laid out where they found the green sites and they just worked out from there, you know. Like, this is a great place to put a green. Now let's figure out how we can get to it. And Don Average is a lot like that. And a lot of these courses we've talked about, it's just, it's no, matter how good of an architect you are, you can't recreate something that's a natural occurrence. It just, it just, you can try, and some people are successful at it. You know, Rob's been successful at it.

Other architects have, but it's still, there's still a difference. Again, like the fourth or the ninth of Danerity with this green down in this sort of natural punchbow. When you build that, it's just not going to look the same. And it's just, maybe it's the fact that it's been weathered for 130 years and it just, that's the way it's always been but yeah the uh all right let's we've talked a lot about aaron i feel like we've covered down on erin and and our our videos you know with you the torres sauce videos like there's there's plenty i think there's plenty to go on with erin it's only it's only a 55 minute hour

long ferry ride over there like people i would encourage people like it's it's sound like it sounds and then when when you're over there it feels like going to like you're in Hawaii or something like that. Like it's it's on the edge of the earth. Again, it's less than an hour of every ride to get over there. When you guys proposed this trip, it was like,

right, we land and the same day we're taking a fair. It was like, it seemed like too much on paper and experience it was like, oh, like I can go play golf right now. Like it,

you know, and we did. Like, it was not, it was nothing, honestly. Yeah. So,

so, all right, so going like, uh, skipping over Aaron, because we've, We talked a lot about that, taking the ferry into Clowneg, or even if you were just gonna take the ferry into Campbelltown.

Let's talk about Don Avery, McRhanish, MacDunes, Caradale, Gia, like basically the stuff there on the Mull of Kintyre, and then we'll move outward from there. Jim, it's not, you know, like, between McRahanish, Dunavrity, it's like, that's, I mean, Sally, like, that was a perfect 36 whole day for you guys. Like, it was on the back end. back end of a lot of travel and everything and you guys got down to denaverty and you're like oh my gosh like this yeah i mean macrhenish full-length golf course going to beat you up a little bit

you know tough golf course 18 whole full you know not not 7000 yards but in the six is easily like traditional golf in the way that we typically think about it you get to denaverty and it's a par 60 remind me 66 something like that 66 it's 66 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 1 1 part R5, under 5,000 yards. And it was, it was awesome. Like it was such a great 36 whole day. We got there thinking maybe we'll play a few holes. We'll play 11 holes or both, you know, we'll mess around with our own routing.

We kind of really didn't even, you know, say this out loud to each other. But I think we were just all like, oh, I think we're playing L18 here today because this is just an awesome night for it. And it, I don't know, man. I feel like I've said this in a lot of different, you know, content we've done. recently, but there's just something to like a 280-yard simple par four that is fun for everyone. I am almost exactly scratch golfer right now. And like there's a challenge to be had in that for me. And as soon as I teed off on that golf course, I'm like, my dad would love this place.

Like he would love it. Like we would have so much fun there. And like our experiences would be very different together at Macra Hanish in terms of like love of that golf course. But like de Naverty, I'm like, dude, I, I, I, none of the people I like in respect would not like this. You know what I mean? Like it, it's just so fun to just hit random shots and get out of your own brain on how far ball is supposed to go. And like the natural use of the terrain and just the beauty of that place.

It was everything you described it to be. And it led to one of the most, you know, we hit the jackpot on weather, but it led to one of the most special nights of golf. that's just a night. It's up in my top 10 of like, I will never forget like the images of that night. Listen, I love the place. It's my favorite place in the world.

And I was so nervous that you guys were not going to get to play. You were up at like three o'clock in the morning texting us. Like, what do you do? Well, I was, I knew that you were playing McRhanish. And I know McRhanish can be hard, especially when the wind's blowing. And it's,

it's a tough golf course. And I'm like, man, they're going to be too tired to go to, to Narravedy and I knew you guys were going, you were texting me, you're going to the hotel. I'm like, they're going to get in the hotel, have two tenants and just, and not get up. I know, I was worried too, Jim. I was texting him. I was on the ferry out to Barra.

And I was like, man, we got it. And so I can't, I think I even texted you, Sally, before you left. You said something like, well, we may just play the first few holes. And I think I said you've got to play at least get out to 11, but try to play all 18 if you can. and I knew you would love it. It's just brilliant golf and it's beautiful and the shots that you play. You talk about these short par fours. I'm going to get like a preacher here for a minute, but, you know,

they're 280 or 260 or there's par threes that are two. You know, the six hole is a 280 yard part of three, which is harder than some of the par fours. But if you look at this, and I've played these holes so much now, I know the strategy of them, there's mounds in the fairway. Like if you hit the mound the wrong way, the ball's going to stop. It's not going to go anywhere.

If you hit the right side of the mound, you're going to roll them down to the green, like the ninth. I mean, if you, it just, there's so much, you know, even for somebody that's a great player like you guys are, you get on that 11th T and you think, well, what am I going to, there's still strategy involved in it because you, I've got to fly this mound or I've got to, I've got to land it here to get it to run down on the green or

drivers really too much do i try to hit a two or a three iron or a hybrid or something i i don't know the variety there um is just endless and it does not beat you up i mean it's not easy i mean by any means i mean i think i've played in a lot of competitions there and you know you know something 68 is a good score you know 68 will usually usually win one thing they've done in the last few years and David McBrain, who you guys met and Tron's met, a wonderful, wonderful man who's been the Greens, the Greens, they call them the Greens convener for about 25 or 30 years. And he's just, he's, he's gotten some new equipment. He's cut back some of the rough to the point where it's still a penalty, but you can find your ball.

And I've had this discussion with David a few years ago. He's like, you know, why do we want people to lose a ball on every hole? I said, that's no fun for anybody. So now they've cut some of the rough down to where you can get in there and find your ball and hack it out or maybe if you get lucky even advance it and but yeah the fairways are wide enough and the wind changes direction you got so much direction on the hole there's so much variety on the holes punch bowl greens just i knew you'd love it and i got in fact every one of the guys that were there nil and big even ben and and they all texted me separately and cody

Cody did too, just individually like, man, this place, thank you for making us make sure we, maybe y'all picked up on the fact that I was getting nervous that y'all weren't going to play. I don't know. But I'm so glad. I was so relieved. And I think I texted you, Tron, you may have been on the ferry to Harris or somewhere, but I said, you know, you said they loved it. And I said, yeah, I've heard from all of them individually. And so, yeah, I think you can see why I've built it up so much over the years.

and it's just a very unique place in golf. And the people, the clubhouse is just everything about it. It's perfect for me. That's why I've written about it so much. AT&T believes in connecting people to greater possibilities. And they do that through a network that keeps people meaningfully connected to those who matter most, friends, family, and more. So the moments that matter feel closer and clearer because it's not just about being more connected.

It's about being better connected wherever life takes you. When the connection matters, it has to be AT&T. To find out more, head to ATT.com backslash connect to change. AT&T connecting changes everything. Back to the pot. It cleared the bar for me in terms of like, you know, was this place, a place I'd recommend to somebody or a place that I'm like, you are missing out if you don't go.

And it's like, I think you're missing out if you don't go, which is a high bar to clear in terms of like recommending a golf course. It would be like I would suggest people to, yes, if you're too tired and it's six o'clock at night. and you have, but you have an evening to go, like, go do it. Go do it. Yeah, like, you will not regret it. It is, you know, you'll see pictures of it later and we'll have regretted not being able to, to experience it. It'll energize you.

Love to play it again. Yeah, it's kind of, I can see why you love to play it on repeat, too, because it was like, I felt this way from watching when Revelation comes of just like, oh, that's a golf course. I got to go see. Like, those shots look, look so fun. And I don't even know what the hole is there, but that's a shot I want to hit. And it was, I've been thinking about that place a lot. I think there's something with like, like, let's say you're a good player and like, man, like, all right, like, I really want to break par.

Or I really want to, like, I want to see how good I can shoot. And like that's, that's such an interesting, like going and playing offense on a course like that. There's some little spots that can just trip you up. And it's such a good mental exercise of getting the ball whole. It's all relative. Yeah. How about the 10th grade? You can make a 10 on 10.

I mean, I think, I think you were one under when we came into that hole one day and wound up walking off with a 10, I think, on the hole. It just, I don't know. I'm very biased about it, but I, it's, I will say this, where else have you been that it's like Danerity? I mean, there's, you know, it's just, there's nothing really like it. And, you know, it was laid out in 1889 by the original member. I mean, it wasn't an architect that laid it out. It was just local men, you know, people from Cameltown that farmers and stuff. And I think they knew what they were doing.

And I remember I'll never forget when we drove in there trying that first trip a few years ago. And we're driving on the road on the 17th Green and you just literally just started laughing. Just like, I can't believe this. You know, we're driving between the green and the river. And this is this a real hole? I'm like, yes. And it's just, where else have you seen a hole like that that has a real? river right in front of the green and it's just I don't know I love it I'll never get tired of

it I play when I go over there and when I go this time I'll play every day and um you know I may even I may even play 36 one day because I you know there's a couple of climbs out there you know climbing up the 12th and climbing up the hill in the tent yeah that's a that one's that that's a tough climb up 12 but it's not it's not hard to walk I would say in the big scheme of things it's just It's got a couple of climbs that are that get you, but you can, you can handle that in a, in a round. So, um, yeah, um, I can't say enough about it.

I've written about it just to the point that people probably get tired of it, but I just, I find something new every time. I mean, I'm just, I'm thinking of another story about it. And there's just so much. And the members are just, they've, they've treated me like family. And, um, I can't wait to be back in a few weeks. well the um in i think macrahanish macrahanish dunes we've talked about that i mean like how would you you guys have both played macrahenish dunes i have not how would you sum that up and it

sounds like it's gotten better over the years as well like they've they've done some good work i'll just real quick i think it's a good golf course i it just uh some of the walks and i understand why they had to lay it out the way they did but some of the walks from tea to green just are so disheartening um and maybe that's not a fair critic criticism, but when you've played Macrohanish and every T is literally two steps from the other, the next green, you like, you get on some of those hos of Mac Dunes. And you're like, God almighty, when are we going to get there? But it's, look, it's beautiful and it's got some really cool green. Saul, you, you're a much better player than me. It's a hard, it's a very hard golf course, I think. I experienced it on, you know, it was a, I did the double dip macranches and macduans back in 2017. And I had kind of a tough weather day when I did it. And I wish I, I wish my memory was stronger in it other than I remember it being pretty heavily criticized at the time. And I

remember having fun. I remember like, you know, I think the sun came out when I was out there. And to your point, I've looked at it back on on the map since the gym. And it is like, yeah, I assume it's SSI or SSSI related reasons as to why the Tita Green walks are bigger than they are. And it feels it's bold, it's big. It's a little manufactured. The greens are crazy. And it's just a different, you know, not just a traditional laid out Scottish links. But like it's not the castle course, right?

It's a different. And Dave McClay-Kid, it's a different brand of DMK than that. and I would recommend it. I mean, it's a, it's a strong golf course, if you ask me. To your exact point, it is not a traditional easy walk. Here's, here's, that is part of it. I think it's a totally fair criticism, Jim. I think that's part of the charm of these golf courses is like,

hey, the origin of the game used to be, you teed up the ball within two club lengths of the whole, of the actual cup prior. Like then eventually we ended up with T-boxes and moving away from it, but like big walks to T-boxes are not. a natural thing when it comes to the game of golf when it comes to the history of it. And the farther we drift away from that, I think the worse off we are because I think golf is meant to be like to go, you know, hit it, find it, hit it again, and keep moving and

keep rolling. Yeah, it's, that's the thing about it. It's just, you know, a lot of these places we're talking about. I mean, hell, you hit over the next tee. You hit over the green. You just played in some cases. And I love that when you're walking, especially, it just, the rhythm of that is is fun and it gets but it look i'm like you i always tell people to people ask me and i say yeah play

it uh now i would play macrihanis three times to one for macdoons that's just me but i definitely people and the people are very very friendly that run the course and it's it's it's worth it to do it and they're you know they're building allegedly another 18 i've been out to the site and a lot of it's kind of in farmland it'll be interesting to see how that one turns out there's not as much dune land left but it's supposedly it's well they've been talking about it for five or six years but i heard recently that they're starting to get a little bit of more movement i think having some more critical mass down in that area would would only help right yeah campbeltown's cool like it's just i don't know it's just an interesting like you got the big runway there and and you know you're

what 20 miles to northern ireland across across the water it's just a crazy kind of just piece of geography And so, Jim, from there, like, Caradale, like, how would you sum up Caradale? It's just, it's kind of like a little bit more rustic than, you know, it's more headland, more rustic. You get the views out to Aaron, but like, and it's a tough drive up from Campbelltown, but it's also like, I think if you're making that drive and you have a spare two or three hours, it's not to be missed. Now, everybody that I've sent to Caradale has loved it. It's very quirky.

It's the kind of stuff I love. I think the day that you and I played there, you said something to the effect of this is one of the most fun rounds of golf I've ever played in my life when we got done. You know, that first hole is just straight up hill par three. And then when you get up on that second tee looking down, the second hole is just brilliant. And you're looking straight out to Aaron and across the Kilbran Sound. And it's just one after another. And it's these weird greens that are kind of cut into the side of hills. kind of like Corey has a couple.

And, you know, the six hole we've talked about, you and I have talked about, I've written a story about the six, well, it's in the book. A lot of it's about the six hole. One of the best holes you'll ever play. And just this crazy green that you were just busted out laughing when you saw it, when we were there and you're just like, I can't, this is just incredible. And like you said at the time, I mean, nobody would, nobody in their right mind would build something like that.

But that's the way it's been for 120 years. and, you know, they've had the same greenskeeper for 42 years, Robert. But it's a, and he takes care of it by himself. It's a little bit, I would even say it's a little bit more rustic than, or a good bit more than denaherty, but I love it. And people that go there love it. And, you know, if you, if you're the kind of guy that gets caught up on having greens that are 10, 11 on the stint meter, and this is not for you.

I mean, you just turn this podcast off. You should not be an hour. 50 days. Yeah, yeah. It's not, it's not for you. It's a different kind of golf. It's one that I love. And I think it, I think it's still a, a challenge. I mean, it's still, you're still, you still have to get the ball in the hole. I mean, and so, but yes, I always tell people to try to get by Caradale either on your way. It's, I think it's probably 35 minutes, 40 minutes up from Camel Town up to one of the windiest roads in the universe. But there won't be much traffic is the good part of it. But I think when we took that trip for the, for the film when Revelation comes, I came away thinking it was one of your favorite places. You'd ever been.

Some of the strongest holes on the trip, I thought. Yeah, yeah. I think, so, all right, Gia, is that one, have you been there? Or is that? I have played it. I would go over and eat at the Boat House restaurant, right on the water. It may even have a

Michelin Star. If it doesn't, it ought to have one. You would, and then play, it's a very rustic nine hole course. There's a guy that takes care of it when he has time. But I enjoyed it.

I thought it was fun. It's got some couple of good holes. And you're playing golf on an island in Scotland. But I would not, that would not be one that I would build a trip around. But if you had to have, if you, if you were going,

I would recommend going over to the problem of going over to the ferry is so weird the ferry is so weird like it like it the last ferry is like it the last ferry is like you can't even I think the last ferry leaves at six o'clock or five 30 coming back so even if you're going there to eat you've got to eat a late lunch kind of late tea yeah yeah you know and so that's that that's what now you can't stay out there there's a there's a hotel or two but um And I love the little island, but that's not one that I, I don't even, I don't put it in the Caradale tier of things at all. Okay.

And then Ila, like you're, you're staring out at Ila and Jura from, you know, from, Macrihanish there, and you got the peaks and all of that. It blows my mind that there's only one golf course on Isla. And that's the Macri. Yeah, there used to be more. I think there was three at one point and two of them closed. Same sort of story as Aaron. the mockery.

I've played the old course three or four times and loved it. It had 18 or 19 blind shots. I've not played the new. They redid it completely within the last six or seven years, I think. And everybody that I've talked to that's been out there loves it and says it's great. And I'm sure it is. I think they got rid of some of the blind stuff. But it's talking to somebody recently that have been out there and loved it.

You know, there's seven there's seven whiskey distilleries out there, I believe that's right. So it's a great place to go and spend a day or two, play the course, go visit Beaumor, Ardbeg. I mean, these distilleries are fun things to do and just the way

the craftsmanship that goes in to making this stuff, I'm fascinated by. Anything that people spend so much time trying to perfect and it's an art form, I love. And so I love taking those tours. And so I think it's, definitely think it's worth going out there.

I've not, as again, I've not played what I'm calling the new course, but everybody that I've talked to loves it. And I love the old one was one of my favorites. I thought it was, it was just one of the most bizarre things in the world. But they've, they've, they've, they've softened it up a good bit,

uh, in terms of the quirkiness from what I understand. And then, we're not going to talk about Ardfin on this one. That's got the only course on Jordan. Ardfin, And it just missed out on my top 18 in the book, Tron. I had it on the list, but just couldn't quite.

I think, you know, four months of your mortgage payment for a round of golf is a little bit, a little bit too much for me. Yeah. Colin, say, is out that way. That is one I love. That's pretty far afield. It's a lot like, I don't know. You got to be pretty committed. Now, you've got to stay a couple.

couple of nights if you're going out there because the ferry's on i think the ferry only runs well you have to because the ferry doesn't go every day it's like a tuesday and thursday maybe um i can't but i love the course reminds me of iona it's that kind of very similar type of course um and i wrote about it a lot in when revolution comes but i if you're if you're looking for an adventure i'd go i'd love the colinsey hotel you would dearly love it i know how you are about hotels it's got i think it's got eight rooms the restaurant they just cook whatever they've caught that night, you know, oysters and, you know, langestines and what, what, what, what, what, whatnot. Wonderful little place. And, uh, you kind of sit out in the back

garden and eat, each dinner looking out at the water. So I love Colin. But that, that is a commitment of, that's at least a, that's almost, honestly, that's almost a three-day commitment to, to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, Iona. We talked about, I mean, that, that's a, that's a, that's probably a day commitment to do with getting out you know getting out all the way there it's a couple ferries from from oben or you know i guess if you're on the aisle of mall um get out there but yeah like some of these islands there's not that you know there's just not that much golf they're so remote and they're they're pretty vast you know yeah i mean i own a we i love and i know you love it but you know we did it or we sort of did it in the day we we we we crashed the car but um you know it's you can

We just, we just got a flat tire. We didn't crash it. We got a flat tire. I mean, it just, every time I go by the quick fit and open, I think about you, honestly.

I usually post a picture that says Quick fit, the official tire distributor of no laying up. But the roads going down. I mean, Finley, McDonald, our mutual friend will tell you,

I mean, the roads are just terrible. So you have to, we were even, even that, I won't belabor that. store but you know we were even trying to look out for potholes like we were yeah i was i was on the lookout for him and i didn't see this one and it just they're just they're just right on the edge of the road

and they're almost they'll just destroy your your car so you got to that's part of it too i mean you got to um you got you got to you got to take that into account you know this is the perfect time to tell you about our friends at east sands golf east sands helps bridge the gap between playing the most famous courses like Royal Trune and discovering the hidden gems of Western Scotland that can make a golf trip truly special. Haley and Nick, friends of ours, they built East Sands specifically to help golf sickos put together the perfect trip across Great Britain and Ireland or wherever you want to take your trip. Whether you want something big and ambitious or small and straightforward, they can build the trip around exactly what you're looking for. We're also

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these last islands we'll talk about, just, you know, Benbecula, Isle of Harris, South U.S., all of those. But, um, Obin, like I've driven by Glenn Cruton before, the home of, of, Bobby McIntyre and his dad's the greenkeeper there. I've never played it. And, Yeah. It's a tough little golf course. It's very tight. It's very hilly. You can see why Bob plays the way he does.

You can see why he controls his driver really well, at least from what it looks like to me. Because you got to there, I mean, it's extremely tight. It's got some good holes. It's not my favorite, but it's because it's really hard to walk. I mean, it's so hard to walk.

You know. It's not one of those courses I see it. I'm like, I want to play there. It's kind of like, okay, that looks, that looks tough. No, but when you see some of the holes, like there's a couple of the par threes. They're just stunning, but to get to them, I don't know. But no, and the club's very friendly, you know, but it's worth stopping by there and having a beer and playing if you want to.

But just be prepared that, like if you were asking me, I'd tell people to play Isle of Seal before Glen Cruton. I love Isle of Seal. Which is not an old golf course either. No. It out what in the 80s or 90s? Yeah, it was the late 80s and laid out by local guys. But wonderful sort of Heathland, Lockside, Bayside course.

You know, it costs you 10 pounds to play. I think it's all day. It's 15. So that's just more, it's a little bit more fun to me. And it's easy to walk. I mean, you could walk it twice and not feel,

you wouldn't feel anything. You'd be, You'd be, yeah. Let's go out from, let's go, let's, let's just take the big ferry out from, from Oban to, you know, we'll pass, pass by Isle of Mull and, and Call and rum and Tyree and all that and go out to, like, I played Barra. Finally, it was, it was another one that was laid out in the early 90s. They're not really, like, I was expecting it to be more like Iona as far. far as just that that you know that kind of loamy mcare soil and you know and it and it wasn't it was more of just more of a mud rocky kind of you know spectacular little golf course but i think askernish was worth the trip

in and of itself out to south uist and you know eris k and all of that i think um it was i was expecting it to be a lot more uh just found i guess of found it's not the right word i was expecting to be a lot more like i had to squint to see the golf course and it was in really good shape and much more um just like it was it was much more defined than i was anticipating it being the the greens at askerness are some of the most fun wildest greens i've ever played in my life i don't know how you feel about it but they're just crazy and you can play off mounds and just into punch bowls and i i love askernish i mean i mean I mean, if you're asking if it's worth the effort to get out there, 100% it is.

I agree with you. It's just a very unique place. And if you're going out, I know you guys didn't, I don't think you guys had time to get up to Isla Harris. But you drive up. There's one ferry up around. I can't think of the Lyle. Black Maddie or. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that you can take across there and go play Olive Harris,

which I do think is in my book. and that's askerness and al-Avarez are both in the book and are in my top favorites and it's worth going out there and spending a couple of nights 100% worth trying to figure out how to do that and you know we talked about the ferries a little bit you just got to be you just got to roll with the punches a little bit you got to you got to that's the only thing that's all you can say about it yeah because like we like our our ferry we were supposed to go back from uh from was that Lock Boysdale back into Malag. Yeah.

And that ended, the bow thrusters were broken on the boat. And so we ended up, they changed it the day before. And we ended up going into Weig on the Isle of Sky, which turned out to be, I mean, one of the greatest drives I've ever taken in my life. But, you know, I was looking at it. I was like, all right, you know, maybe we can just drive up to, you know, drive up to Harris and play Isle of Harris and then Storn away and then take the ferry from Storn away. and then take the ferry from Stornaway over to Geroa, you know, over to Ola Poole, right?

Because there's Ola pool and then Gera, like, I think there's all this stuff that's up in the highlands on the west side of the highlands that is probably more, like, it's more in the western aisles than it is in the highlands because it takes so long to get there from Adornick or, or, you know, Brora or Inverness, right? I agree. I think Gerelock, Dorness, that stuff, although it's classified as the Highlands, to me it feels more like part of the Western Islands. I agree with you. Like the time that I played Derness and Gerelock, I came over on that ferry that you're talking about. And it was just a better way. It was a nice way to kind of get to that place without. That corner of Scotland is the roads are pretty bad. I mean, I don't mind doing it. I think it's fun.

But if you're not, if you're, if you're, if you're nervous driver, you better hang on when you start going up there. Because it's, you're talking 50, 60, 70 miles on very, very narrow, narrow single lane, single track roads. And the only saving grace up there is generally, you can see far enough ahead where you can see when somebody's coming. And so you can, you know, you can, you'll, you'll, you'll almost always have a passing place. place that you can get into and you don't feel trapped like if you're coming over a hill and a big camper van or a bus is coming straight at you but um but yeah that those places are remote darness and garlock i've got them in my uh my 19th whole chapter i love both of them they were two of the courses that when i was doing the final list i actually wrote chapters for both of

those and just didn't um they didn't quite make it went on my final cut and uh so i love them And, but yeah, that I would always sort of tell people to try to combine it. I do what you said. Like if you're going to take that trip, go over, go from Oban or over to, to take the ferry over to play Ascernish, drive up to Harris. Stornoway has a pretty good course up there that people, I've not played, but I've driven up past it and it looks fun. And then take that ferry across and then play those places that you're talking about, then come down, maybe around down to Dornick. I'm not, yeah, Dornick and Borough. But that's to me is a, it's almost a better, although I love these driving,

you see so much great stuff on these roads. If you're, if you're nervous about the driving, that's a little bit better method to do. And then I think there's some stuff in your book that's, you know, there's some stuff on the East Coast, but there's some stuff up that we didn't really cover up in the highlands or highlands adjacent that, you know, we've talked about Derness a little bit, but Covesey and Hopman. Artu, that I'm ashamed that I haven't been to Covese yet, and I'm dying to get there and, you know, Lossie mouth right down the road.

But, yeah, Covcy looks one of one. Coecee is one of one. It's almost like, I almost compare it to the Sweetens Cove of Scotland in a way. It's just in the way that it's sort of this can do. This guy and his wife built his course. Andy is a he was a golf course contractor builder but he they got this land and decided to build this course and you can read about it in the book but the day we went there it was that was Jake and I were on that trip and we had already played Fraserburg and Cullen and y'all know

it doesn't get dark that day okay and we were leaving that we were leaving the Cullen parking lot and I have to give Jake credit for this I was tired because Fraserburg is a hard course and it's hard to walk. But we were with George Clark, a mutual friend of all of ours. And George said, where are you off to now? And Jake said, well, we're going to go play COSY. And I said, I don't know, Jake. He said, Dad, we've got to do it.

I'll give him credit. He said, I've just looked at these pictures. We've got to do it. And it was about another 45, 50 minute drive. Yeah. And so we get there at 7 o'clock, Angela, who, they had a lot. a little trailer out there. She saw us drive up and,

and I tell the story in the book, but, you know, she said, you've got time. Nobody's out. You'll be around an hour and 10 minutes. And she goes,

but you got to eat, you know, and y'all know how it is over there. 830 is like the last service, you know. She got to eat. You got to eat. I'll book you something in Lossie mouth.

So she booked our dinner while we were out playing. And we got CoSie on this, the like the golden hour, the greatest golden hour I've ever seen. bar none and I'll put this up against stuff I've seen at Sweetens Cove, DeNarity, Macrohan, you know, it's just, it was just like I look back at the pictures now, honestly, and they do not look real. They look like they're fake and the place that Andy did such a wonderful job fitting it into this hidden. Tron, you got to get, you both of y'all got to go, but you'd sort of, you drive

down this sort of narrow lane single road down through gores. You can't see anything. All of sudden you're down at this hidden sort of cove that's at the it's completely hidden from the rest of the world and it's right on the edge of the water and um it's just i people that go there dearly love it i mean they've i uh andy they came up they've been so great supporting the book he actually came to one of my book signings and um got to talk to him for a while and they're just doing people are finding out about it and it's you know it's it's it's i don't know what it is now 25 pounds you know which is nothing and it's just stunning. I mean,

hole after hole, it's got a couple of holes like Cullen. You're hitting over a, like the 13th at Cullen where you're hitting over the rock. There's one like that. It's the only other place I've seen with that kind of hole. Well, I guess I don't know,

maybe has one similar to it. But that's what it is. And it's just, it's just a great little golf course. And it's pure fun. The pro at Nairn, who y'all might know Michael McCallan, loves it.

He goes and plays there all the time. I mean, Michael will text me, like that's what he does for fun as he goes he's the pro it in there and he goes and he plays covesy so think about that I mean and he and so they're just coming up and they're coming up out of nowhere hopman you mentioned I love hopeman did you get to there on this trip or not no no it's like I want to go play I've never done Fraserboro I've never done Lossie mouth and then I want to go covese uh hopman up to Derness and and you know go play ray and Wick and those so just you got to

like a big sides. Well, Hopman is, I highly recommend Hopeman, very friendly, 18-hole course. Wonderful.

The back nine is the best. I mean, I would put the back nine well over the front, but there's so many great holes on the back. I think it's 40, 50-pound range,

and people will welcome you there. It's got one of the greatest par-threes called the preshock. I hope I pronounce that right. It's the 12th, and you're hitting down straight down to this, over this gorse covered hillside to this green that's down by the ocean.

I'll send you some photos of it. It's just, you've probably seen it. It's just, it's a one-off kind of hole. I've never seen another one quite like it. And to me, I'll play a course just for one hole.

I don't know how y'all are, but if, if it's something that good, and I'm not saying that Hopman is only one hole, because the course is really good. I'd love it. But it's, it's,

that's the hole that you would put up, um, against any on any list in the world you know what uh all right let's land this plane a little bit we i did want to ask you about the night in the book that you're playing the playing the old course and you know it's it's pitch black it's it's basically completely dark when you're when you're finishing up and and just pretty spiritual evening it was you know um I had not been there. I had not played it in 20 years.

I'd played it a lot when I was younger. And I love the old. I mean, the old, I always say it's in a class. You can't really rank the old course to me. It just sort of, I,

maybe that's a cop out, but I always, when people ask me to rank courses, I just say I'm not ranking the old course because I just feel like it's something that's on its own. We got around, we were the, I forget what they call these times.

They call them, not evening times. But you know how they call stuff Twilight Golf in the U.S. So we got, we had, you're not guaranteed to finish. You're not guaranteed to finish. We were the last group that finished. And, you know, I really wanted to finish because Jake was there and he was having so much fun. I mean, this just tells you everything about Jake.

He was playing with Persimmons and just playing great. And the ball was rolling like it only does at the old course. And we were having so much fun. We got paired up with a. a guy from tidalus that you know tron or from or was it cal anyway randomly got paired up and we had some great caddies and it was just we all had some good holes we had some birdies but i was really as we got around to like the 14th and we're i remember walking past hell bunker and i'm like we're not going to finish there's just no way we're going to finish it was just it was

twilight at that point yeah in fact uh the guy david that was with us who are hosted us, he quit playing on, he said, look, I want you guys to finish. I'm not going to play anymore, which was a wonderful gesture. And when we came up to 18th, literally it was just lit by the town lights. I mean, it was the light coming across from the old and from the houses down the right side. But we finished and it was completely dark when we got done. And they had, I couldn't believe they did this. I write about it in the book, but they had made this flag.

of this drawing that Jordan had done when he was nine years old, and they'd put it on the 18th hole at the old course. And I didn't even realize they kept wanting me to look at it, and I really didn't realize what it was. I thought, well, I said, well, that was nice. I got Jake to sign a flag for me. I didn't really look at it that close. And I went over and sat down when we were settling up with the caddies and stuff,

and I opened it up and looked at it. And I'm like, oh, my God, they've made this flag from this drawing Jordan did of the old, the old course logo when he was a kid. And it really just, I had, I had to run and catch our friend in the car park and tell him how much I appreciated it. And, you know, there's really, you guys have played there a good bit. I mean, there's just, it's, again, it's sort of, to play it. And it was, and the other thing, really probably the reason we were able to finish was it

was a very clear day. So we had, we had some residual light up until the very end there. But, you know, it's funny. you can play that 18th hole in the dark. I mean, there's enough light. You know, enough light coming around, but we were the last group to finish, and I'm so glad we did it. It was just wonderful, and Jake still talks about it.

And, you know, I just, I'm so thankful to the Links Trust for really helping us do that. Because, you know, as y'all know, it's just hard to get on. And, you know, so. David, David Connor, I mean, we're indebted to him for helping us. Yeah. Like, I don't, you know, Taurus. season two is like he basically arranged that. What a nice man.

Yeah. Just a good, just a good man and a credit to golf in Scotland. Well, he told me, and I think I've got this in the book, he said, you know, it made me realize how special this place is where I work and how much it means to people around the world. And he said, it just really hit me that, you know, that some kid in Alabama was dreaming about playing the old course when he was nine years old. And I just, I don't know, I just, they, they have, as long as they've got people like

that taking care of the place, they're going to be fine. And, you know, I like the way they're doing the ballots and stuff now. Some people don't like it. It's fine as far as I'm concerned. I mean, it's fair, you know. But, yeah, it's, it had been 20 years and it was really, I got out there and I'm like, man, this is just so much fun. It's such a fun course to play.

And it is, and the funny thing is, it's one that, you know, I'm a 15 handicap and I've never felt scared to play the old courts, if that's the right word. It's playable. You know what I mean? It's, it's playable for people. Yeah. So, Jim, unfortunately, I've got to drop great chat with you. I'm going to let you guys keep going because I know you guys could go for probably another hour, if not. So, but thank you.

Always great talking to you, my friend. Yeah, good to see you. It's all I doing British radio. It's open championship week. So I'm squeezing this one in. What a couple quick hitters for you. I think you have your top 100 holes list. Yep.

Uh, in Scotland. How much turnover is, is there on that after each trip? Well, I do, it's, I'm glad you asked that.

I do keep up with it. And, um, there's a little bit. And, and what I found is there's a lot of like holes shift around. I've moved, um, the six at Shishkin.

up to second now. I think I had it fourth or fifth before. I can't remember, but I've moved it up to second. I've added the 12th and 15th, the Whiting Bay in there, which I just think are all world, Scottish,

brilliant golf holes. So it does. I mean, if I find one that I really sort of moved by or like this is really great, then I'll spend a little bit more time on it when I'm there and maybe take a few more photos and try to understand the hole,

a little bit better. And then I'll, so I do keep it updated. And it does, usually when I play a new, like Millport, I added a hole from Millport after I played there. I believe the 11th.

And, you know, so it does, it does change and it gets updated. And, you know, you find things that are a little bit better and that you like a little bit better. But also it just,

what's within there changes. Like I've just, I've really just become such a fan of the six that Shishkin now. And it just keeps moving up. So. I know you said you're going to Perthshire next, but anywhere that you haven't played that you're, that's just screaming at you,

that's pulling at you, it's like, the only one that I feel like, for me that I've just got to get to is, um, walsay, if I'm pronouncing that right up in Shetland. I've really wanted to play that.

And I've just never, it's such a long. Yeah. I think it's a nine hour ferry trip from average. Dean or somewhere to get to get up there. I don't know if I'll be able to do that one. I would love that's that's one that's one that I've had on my list. There's one or two.

That that's probably the biggest one. I mean, I've not played. There's a course on Isle of Call that I've not played that it's really, again, like we were just saying earlier, it's one of these, you know, if you're going out there, you got to time it because the ferry only goes on Tuesday and Thursday or something. So you've got to go. It's not, it's not just to go.

out there and back kind of thing. But there's a couple like little ones on the islands that I still haven't gotten. But I've been pretty much everywhere. It's just now finding places that I really have never heard about, you know, one way or another and just seeing what I find. But that went up in Shetland I've always wanted to do. And I've heard from people that it's a really good golf course, really good links course. are you are you ever pulled into say england or ireland or that sort of thing or you or is scotland

the final frontier for you and there's just something that keeps pulling you back with the people i think it's it's probably the latter i just can't give it up and i love it and i've kind of made it my life's work if you will for writing and but i am thinking about you know i've played burkdale and litham and I played St. George's Hill one year, which was just incredible. I happened to be timed it when I was going flying to London. And yeah, I mean, I played all the courses in Ireland, and they're great. I did take one trip and really a long trip and played almost everywhere with my dad there about, it's been about 15 years ago now.

So I've done that. I do want to, I'm thinking about doing a little bit more in England just because England, has so many great golf courses, really places that I need to play. You know, Stephen Proctor, who I do the podcast with that you guys so generously sponsored for us, is writing a biography of Bernard Darwin. And he's going to be over there next April, and he's going to be playing all of Darwin's courses like Aberduvian, Wales, and Woking and Brancaster and all these places that, you know, that Darwin loved.

And I'm thinking about at least joining Steve. even for two or three days and playing a couple of those places. I do feel like I've missed some stuff in England. When you look at the courses in England, you see a lot of really, really good stuff. And Wales, too. I mean, some of the stuff in Wales. I mean, the links in the sky I've always wanted to play.

Royal St. David's of Harleck I've always wanted to play. Aberdovey has been on my list forever. So if I may try to go to Aberduvee next year and then work in, That's an easy one to do with Liverpool or, you know, you go over Form B or Wallacea. But really, I just, I love being in Scotland and I just, I don't see myself changing much from that. What nor should you? I guess, all right, current Open Rota rankings. Do you have a strong opinion on, you know, like, it's your favorite tournament, it's open,

week. This pot will come out after the fact, but do you have a very definitive open rhoda kind of rankings list? Yeah, I do. I think I'm going to cheat a little bit. I think Mirfield and the O'Course are tied at the top. I think the O'Course is my favorite place where the Open's played. I think Muirfield is probably one of the greatest golf courses in the world as far as a test for for players. It's just brilliant. And so those two would be at the top.

I hope the RNA goes back. Karnoosti, I would have second. I think Karnoosti is a fantastic open course. I love it. I think it's just every time they have it there, it's just you're on your edge of your seat watching. It's great. This one might surprise you a little bit.

My third one, if you let me have the code number one, would be lithium. I think lithium is vastly, vastly, vastly underrated. I'm with you. It's such a great golf course. I've played it a couple of times.

I love it. It's just the strategy is just over the top. I hope they go back. I know there's always there's challenges, but. They're going back. They're going back in 28. Yeah. They did mention it.

They did finally say they would. I mean, you've been hearing for the last years, oh, the infrastructure is too much, can't do it. Yeah. I mean, if they can have the open and true, and surely they can have it in Lithium, I mean, then I would probably go, to Turnberry and Trune.

I haven't played Turnberry since the changes have been made. I played it a couple of times back before, and I loved it. I thought it was great. And of course, some of the greatest opens of all time. I've got a story in the book about the 2009 open. It's one of my favorites I've ever done. So Turnberry and Trune would be there. Then I'd go to Burkdale, probably Hoy Lake.

And this is probably not fair. I don't like some of the changes. they made the Hoy Lake for the open. I've got to be fair about it. Sometimes you get colored by the people that win. I didn't really, the last open there was just a big let down to me, but it's a good golf course.

And it was wet. It was wet. And that's, you know, when it's wet, it just takes all the fun out of it. I mean, that's a course that needs the conditions to cooperate.

It's so brilliant when it's, when it's dry and firm and fast. The strategy really comes out of it. But yeah, I agree. And then I would have St. George's last, which is probably not fair, but it's the only one of these that I have not ever played. And it looks, I would probably love it if I went there. So it's just kind of default

that I like these other ones better and it kind of winds up at the end. Well, I left out Port Rush that I forgot. I always forget Port Rush. I mean, Port Rush would be up in the Turnberry Trune range for me. I think it's a solid place. I wish, I wish they would have the open it Royal County down. I don't know how you feel about it, but I never been. Okay, well, you, you would have a fit if you went there. It's, it's just everything that we love about golf on that scale, on a scale that could actually, that they could actually have the open there. I think they had the seniors open there a long time ago when Nick, it may have been the last time Nicholas ever played in it. And so I thought they were kind of testing it out for the open,

but they still, I would love that. I think that would be a great. place to have it. I know they've talked about Port Barnick. Port Barnock they've talked about. You know, I'm for, I'm for adding if you're all for trying that if they want to. But I do think it needs to go back to Muirfield. I mean, Murfield's just. Yeah.

The one there, you know, when Nickleson won, I could watch that kind of golf nonstop. I mean, I just, the ball just rolling forever and you just every shot is life or death on the green. So, yeah, but that's kind of my ranking.

Okay. I'm largely aligned with you. And it's, yeah, it's no slight to Port Rush or Earl St. George's because I know they're brilliant golf courses. And I just don't think that it brings out what I want to see out of the pros. Like, it's more aerial than it is on the ground. Granted, conditions have to cooperate for it to be on the ground at a Burkdale or like, but this week we're going to see it, right?

Right. All right. Most cherished piece of feedback you've gotten on the book. Well, when I did the book launch in Dinaverty, some of the members, some of the things they said to me was very moving. I must have had 15 or 20 people that came up to me and said, you thank you for everything you've written about this place. Thank you for doing this book. I've read part of it and then the red DeDenavity part, it's just captures everything. that's special about this place. I mean, it's really kind of emotional hearing that from them. And then, you know, I got, Aberfell gave me an honorary life membership.

And from the story in the book, which I thought was a, as far as I'm concerned, was one of the best honors I've ever had in golf. And then I've gotten so many messages trying. I love getting these emails and DMs from people. And it makes the writing worthwhile. all, but a mutual friend of ours, I won't name him, but he's well connected in the golf industry. He sent me a long message one night, and he said, you know, I've had this book. He said, I'm going to paraphrase what he said. He said, I've just been trying to find a quiet time when I won't be distracted,

and I don't want it to end. I'll read a chapter and think about when I'm going to have, when can I go back and read it again? He said, it's just, he said, it's one of the best things you've written. And he said, it makes me want to go to all these places. When I get these messages from people that, and I get them all the time from people that are at Danavity or Shishkin or Corey, and they'll send me a picture of the book while they're out there playing. They've made even taken it with them.

That means the world to me. I mean, I, you know, this isn't going to make the New York Times bestseller list because we're not, you know, Back Nine Press isn't set up on that like that. But, you know,

it's getting to the people that want to, read it and the people that love this kind of golf like yourself you know you and i are very much alike you know we knew that from the first time we met at sweetens cove i think we talked for 10 minutes and you know gosh we like the exact same exact same thing you know and um but it when i hear from people that have gone to these places and how much they loved it um that means everything to me because you know like we said um a lot of these places like aberfroil if they need visit And so when I hear from, I've heard from four or five people that have gone by there this year. Well, the day you were there, you were just texting me whole after hole.

I can't believe this. This place is incredible. And so I love that. If I've been able to help a little bit, that's the reward from the writing and, you know, getting people to experience these places in the way that I write about them in the book, which is the fun of these kind of trips. And I think it's kind of what we've been kind of the theme of this whole. podcast it's a little bit different kind of trip than maybe a traditional one but it's you're gonna you're gonna

be rewarded with some memories that you just that are that are that you'll never forget yeah no i think it's it's like i love the table of contents in the book because it's such a it sums up that notion of wandering right not all wander or not all who wander are lost and i think that the book feels like a really good just wander and great surprises and it you know it's both a wander geographically around Scotland but also a wander from a time perspective through 35 years of your life of you know in golf and in wandering through different phases of your life and different emotions and and different people along the way and you know all of that adding up to something that's much larger than itself. And Jim, I can say too, like our, I mean, you've changed my life in a pretty

drastic way of just, I think many of my favorite memories come from either playing places with you or people I've met because of you or through you who are now, you know, cherished friends or even, you know, us planning out this Torres Soss season. It's like, I'm, I'm hopeful that the tale on this between your book and, you know, our videos is, is going to, you know, be, be quite a long one because it's, uh, well, I mean, try to think about people, people like Greg McCray and you and McKinnon. I mean, think about these people that, that we've met through golf and there's two of the nicest gentlemen. I mean, I, you couldn't find too nice for people on the planet. I mean, Greg would do anything for you. I mean, I'm going to, I'm going back over to

play with Greg on the Aaron team and these matches that Link's Diary is having. And he's just become a great friend. And it's all through golf. And, you know, I remember when we were doing that when Revelation comes trip, I dropped you off at the ferry. It brought it. And, you know, it was kind of an emotional. I mean, I could tell how much you had loved going to these places.

And it was a very emotional moment there when, you know, and I think I said, I hope we can do this again sometime. And, you know, I hope you can help carry on the love of these kind of places like Corey and Shiskin and Danerty. And so I always, you know, when you text to me that you were going over early for your tourist sauce and the places you were going, I'm like, yep, that's exactly what I would do. And, you know, I can't wait to go to the Grand Tully and you're going to have to tell your man I'm coming so that can take care of me when I'm there. but I love, you know, I love that part of it just as much, finding a hotel that, you know, we didn't even mention the Corey Hotel, which you and I both dearly love and, you know, places like that are half the fun.

I mean, you think about when we were doing that film and we would sit in the Corey at night and just spend three hours at dinner and, I mean, there's really nothing better in life than that as far as having fun and traveling. and stuff. So, you know, the book, I hope, gets that across to people. I mean, it's, we're still trying to get it out there. You know, you can get it. It's, it's in the Weebook Shop and Corey, which I think you guys just visited recently. And it's in the Donavity Shop. You can get it from back9press.com. Back, back the number ninepress.com. I have to get that in there. And it's on, you can get it on Amazon. And we'll get that in the, in the, in the, in the,

show notes as well and everything but yeah we got to get you in the we got to get you in the bookstore in uh st andrews um and the you know like some of those you know legendary kind of golf bookstores right we need to and i don't know why as us as you and i were talking off air i mean there we do have a u k distributor now back nine does so the book can you can get it i mean uh tony at the we bookshop, I had ordered 20 or 25 copies, which I'm going to sign for. He sold some of them, but I'm going to sign the rest in a couple weeks when I'm over there. And so you can get it. But it needs to be in toppings in San Andreas.

It needs to be in Oban and Waterstones. And there's so many nice little independent bookshops in Scotland. I mean, and for that matter, it needs to be in the square books in Oxford, Mississippi. and you know, you'd think that something like, you know, because that's the kind of book it is. I mean, people, I think Shuskin has had 30 copies and they've sold every one of them. You know, it's just a matter of getting more there and people being able to get it. But it's going to do it. I think it's the kind of book where people, like this book finds people as much as people find it.

Yeah. You know, so I think getting it out in the world. Yeah. kind of like oh yeah like it's it's it's it's one that you would just pick up on the shelf and be oh you know what like that looks it looks interesting let me dive in here and it's well and it's like it's like a portal into a separate universe almost well part of it something I'm really happy about like when you see it sitting in like that shishkin shop or denaverage and I'm obviously biased because I wrote the book but it's what you look at you man that that looks cool that cover looks interesting you know

what is that and we wanted it we kind of the whole thing was kind of designed around sort of of a retro 20s and 30s feel to it with these old postcards and photographs and the cover, which is a, which is one of these colorized postcards of Schiskin from the 20s. And so I'm so happy with that. It's one of the things when you see it, you just, you pick it up. And once you, like you said, you see that table of contents. You're like, this looks interesting. And so we're still early days.

I'm hopeful, you know, we'll. we'll submit it for a couple of awards and see what happens and keep trying to get it out there. And, you know, I keep posting, I think everybody that, you know, follows me on Twitter and Instagram that's been supportive of it. You know, Greg is through Aaron Gough and William at Averful. I mean, they've done so much to kind of promote it. And, you know, that's really, that's been a huge help in it. So still keep doing that. And you guys, of course, has been great to me.

and, you know, just that whole time you were on the trip, I almost felt like I was there with y'all because I just, I was so, like, so invested in how much, I mean, I knew in my heart that you'd love Whiting Bay, and I knew in my heart that they'd love Denavity, but you never know until people get there. So you're always, you know, you probably, you probably experience this, Tron. When you recommend something pretty strongly, I mean, you're putting a bit of yourself totally on the line, you know what I mean?

So you're, you're kind of. You're kind of putting yourself in a position of, okay, I've sort of guaranteed this. What if they don't like it? So, yeah, when I started getting the text messages and, you know, I went by when I was over in April, I said, Greg, let's go by and look at the house in Whiting Bay where they're going to be staying. And I just wanted to see kind of what the view was going to be. Y'all had a great view there. Or it was Lamel, was it, Widing Bay or Lamelash Bay?

Lamblash, yeah. Yeah, so, but yeah, you guys have been great, and I can't wait to see this tour sauce when it comes out. You know, I just, it's all the places I love. And I do really hope that you and I get to do it one more time over there. And, you know, if not on Aaron at Denaherty, somewhere where we cross again. And I'm sure we will. But it's been a, it's been a pleasure. and I'm like you, some of the memories of that trip

and that first, that trip with the film was done. I mean, I still get so many messages about that film and people have come to the book through the film. And it's just one of the best things that came out of that. And it had such a great understanding of what that book was about. And so it's still to this day, I get messages about it. So I think it's been since that came out, since I was on with you guys.

And I just, you know, thank you for supporting the book and supporting my writing. And it just really means a lot to me. Well, I think the, just going back to your point about recommendations, like it's one thing to recommend a restaurant that's down the street or a dish at a restaurant.

It's nothing to recommend a golf course where you, you're spending a day or two to get there and everything. I think, like even me, like I was on Askernish when we went when the guys went to McRahanish and Donavity. And even for me, it's like, I think it's something where when people, like when people go somewhere without you, I think it's even like you feel like, all right, I'm not there to put my thumb on the scale or to guide them through this place. And I think there's something even more powerful when somebody gets, you know, like understands the, a place or an experience when you're not there.

it speaks for itself. And I think that that's where, like, you know, those guys text me after the fact. And I mean, shit, I plan this whole trip, you know, the whole trip is basically a, you know, just a continuing to pull on the threads that are in this book, both literally and figuratively. And I think that those experiences resonating with the guys and then reaching out to you is just an affirmation of, you know, what you're about. Listen, again, like I said earlier, I was so nervous about, first of all, I was nervous that they weren't going to actually go to DeNarvity. And then I was like, well, they're not going to have time. They're going to be too tired. And then I was thinking, you know, traditionally, and I've been a,

I've been a follower of you guys from the beginning. I've listened to almost every podcast. Traditionally, this has not been Solie's type of thing. I mean, in fairness. I mean, so I was thinking, I was thinking he's not going to, he's not going to like DeNavity. And then to get this message from him that this is one of the best, I think it said this is one of the best rounds of golf of my life or something like that. And, you know, they sent me a photo from the 11th where the bench, Jordan's bench is. And then I heard from Ben and Cody, who were filming, they weren't even playing. And, you know, and your brother and Randy, you know, both sent me just this, this place is so great.

Thank you for pushing it on us. Thank you for, you know, helping us, you know, meet people here. And so that is, I think I texted you. That night, after everything, I said, I said, my life's work has not been in vain. Yeah, that was, yeah, that was exactly. So, yeah, but man, thank you so much for doing this. Well, yeah, with that, everybody, go by Jim's book. And, yeah, you're a regular contributor in Link's diary and go listen to your pod with you and Stephen as well.

I think it's, yeah, it's just a, just everything golf's about. I think is you personify. So thanks, Jim. Thanks. Cheers, my friend.