No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 929: Exit interview with the R&A's Martin Slumbers on where golf is headed

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

DJ catches up with Martin Slumbers, outgoing Chief Executive of the R&A, for a wide ranging discussion covering his time as the head of golf's oldest governing body and the state of the game from both a professional and recreational perspective. If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining The Nest: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at nolayingup.com/join Support Our Partners: Rhoback The Stack System Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. My name is DJ. Big shoes to fill with an interview today. I'm standing in for our guy, Solly, who is at home with his brand new twins. I sent in us some text messages, some videos, just harrowing scenes over there as he tries to wrangle his now three kids under the age of two. So wishing him all the best and thankful to him for letting me sit in the big chair here

for an interview with Martin Slumbers, who is the outgoing CEO of the RNA. He has been the CEO for the last 10 years or so. Really enjoyed this conversation with Martin. He is someone who's given a lot of time to our podcast over the years to talk about things like, you know, the distance rollback and the open championship and how things work at the RNA. But looking back on his tenure was really fun

just to hear how he got into the job, how he approaches it just from a business perspective, and also just kind of the push and pull of trying to make what is probably one of the most traditional organizations in sports in the game of golf, you know, trying to usher them into a modern age of, you know, internet, new TV deals and new purse sizes and new commercialization and all of those things. So he's a very interesting guy.

He's incredibly well spoken and an absolute golf geek. He loves talking about the game. And I could have talked to him for another three or four hours and certainly another three or four years, but wishing him all the best on his retirement and looking forward to you guys hearing this conversation. But before we get into it, I wanna give a quick shout out to our friends at Roeback.

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all customers. That's 20% off all hoodies, pants, jackets, and more. There is no code needed. Just head over to the website rhoback.com and introduce others to the most comfortable active wear in the game this holiday season. Thanks to Roback for their support. And now without further ado, let's get into my conversation with Martin Slumbers. All right, Martin, I heard you on Golf Channel the other day with Eamonn and Todd Lewis, and you were talking about a sheet of paper that you had when you first took this job.

You said you wrote nine or 10 things on the sheet of paper that you wanted to accomplish. And so now here we are, nine, 10 years later, how'd you do? I think I got to the bottom of the page. All right. That's great. What was on there? What was kind of the triage? It was centered around sort of three things, really. One is, you know, I felt very strongly about getting more women and girls playing, playing the game and the game becoming, you know, I felt very strongly about getting more women and girls playing, playing the game and the game becoming, you know, there's a great phrase in marketing when you go is, is this a game for people like me? And, you know,

the numbers that were coming, coming back on that pretty low. And I thought, well, you know, that's something that's got to change. I love the sport. I love everything about the sport. There was a time in history where golf was a game for the people and part of the community life. And I think that that was very, very important for me to get the women and girls. Secondly was really, I had this whole series of things about how do we genuinely increase the amount of investment into the sport and

take get more people playing the game all around the world. The RNA responsibility outside of the United States, we've got over 62 million people now consuming golf, which is up 10 million since 2018. That was one thing. Then there was a whole slew of commercial stuff, you know, minor banking background and around. I saw the Open Championship and I saw it as, yeah, it was a great championship, but it could so be elevated in terms of brand and commercial and moving it from being, you

know, a sport, a great event to one of the world's greatest sporting events. So those are pretty, those are pretty, those are pretty high up on my list. Well, you mentioned your finance background. So you, you retired, you know, before you took this job, you had retired once as, as kind of a, you know, financial, financial executive investment banker. So before we kind of get into looking back, I kind of want to almost go all the way back. Why did you want to do this in the first place? Why do you want to get into this? And then the other question, this might sound like kind of a silly one. How would you sum up what this job is? Because I feel like everybody kind of sees you as

you're passing out the trophy on the 18th green at the old course. Okay. You're on golf channel talking about the distance rollback, but what, you know, Monday to Friday, what, what is this job? Are you a politician? Are you a salesman? Are you a big brain idealist, delegating stuff? How does it actually work behind the scenes? Yeah. I mean, the first part of your question, I mean, I retired in 2013 to play full-time golf. I sort of had an aspiration to see that. It feels like the next best thing. Yeah. And I got better. There's no doubt about that. But I got very bored. And days along in the winter when you can't play golf the whole time. And I realized I needed something to excise my brain. And I was going to go back to work and doing something else part

time. And then I got asked to interview for the RNA. You know, I've said it before, but I laughed when the headhunter said, I said, I'm not going to get that job. I'm not part of the establishment. I'm not a member of the club, nothing. They said, no, no, no, come and interview, come and interview. Once I interviewed, what was really interesting, my mind started to really race around, look, I've played golf most of my life. I started out caddying. I. I started out caddying.

I took it up from caddying. I played too much. My father stopped me playing because I was playing too much golf. Then I was working but still playing golf. I tried to play golf full time and didn't enjoy being on my own. This is a great opportunity to maybe shape the game how I see it and use my business and commercial acumen to really scratch that itch about running a business. It started to really move from laughing about, I'm not going to get it to, I really want

that job. You know, I'm so glad I did because I realized that actually I had a huge passion for the game and a huge passion for getting more and more people to play the game. You know, and the world's changed quite unbelievably in 10 years. I mean, when did no laying up start? I don't think it existed. About 10 years ago. Yeah, 10 years ago. You know, you ago. It is incredible how the whole world has changed in that period. Your second part of the question, there's a set of parts about this job. I'm secretary of the golf club, which takes time. Which is always interesting. I don't think people

almost fully appreciate that. Everybody compares you and Mike Wan. It's not like Mike Wan is running USGA Golf Club as well and refurbishing the locker room and, you know, having to redo the clubhouse. It's just very interesting to me. To be perfectly frank, I have a team who does most of that, not all. But yeah, so, but that's where it starts. I mean, you know, when I've, I've really, really learned how important this building and you know, I'm looking over the first, the old course now, this building and this San Andreas is to the game around the world. And I know, and I love it when I'm listening to you guys and you're going off on one and everyone's jumping in. Unbelievably how many times it comes back to Scotland and golf in Scotland. And I think that is something that maybe us over here take a little bit for granted about that. So I have that aspect.

And then, you know, the way to break it out is we have the governance of the game, our championships and the development of the game. And I'm on the road 150 to 200 nights a year, either at championships around the world. We run, everyone knows we run the Open, but we also have the AIG Women's Open, we have half the senior open,

and we run about 40 elite amateur championships around the world in one shape or another. So I am usually on the road all of January, February. I have a home in March, I come home in March, and then I'm away April through August. You know, it's sort of balancing up all of those things. And I think the way I describe what my role is, is yes, there's an internal role within running a business,

but the external role is, you know, unfortunate enough to sit in the seat, which is one of the major custodians of the sport. And, you know, whilst most people who work in golf, their job is today, it's what's going on now. My job is a lot to be, what's the game going to look like 10 years from now? The purpose of the RNA, which I wrote in 2016, is to ensure the game is thriving 50 years from now. It's not to govern the game. It's not to run the greatest championship in the

world. It's to make sure the game is thriving 50 years from now. That's what is at the heart, which is why the RNA comes up in so many of the debates that you guys have. Well, I think what's interesting about the RNA specifically too, and not to make your cheeks red here in front of you, but I think the RNA over the last 10 years has done a great job of... I can't imagine what the push and pull for someone like you who's sitting in that building specifically, and there's some very serious people in that building, as you know. The push and pull between the history and trying to modernize and not messing up that balance has to be incredibly difficult. And it seems to me like the RNA has threaded

that needle, as well as anybody just being able to, you know, I appreciate you always taking time for this podcast is a great example and modernizing, you know, the way you guys do some of your media rights, but also making sure that you're always doing an official film and that the golf is at the centerpiece of everything you guys are doing. It's an admirable balance, I feel like, that has been lost around a lot of the rest of the game. I'm curious your reaction, if maybe that's easier said than done, but it seems from the outside. I think it is definitely not easier said than done. Most of my friends and many of your colleagues in the media would have used the word you

said a few seconds ago, which is actually Martin, you're a politician. But you know, I think I remember having coffee with one of our major sponsors two years into my taking on the role. And he said, I think I finally worked out what you're trying to do, which is to reflect history in a modern way. And I'm glad, you know, you've picked it up, and others have picked it up. But that's exactly what we do. St Andrews, I sort of look at the game globally and there's lots of reasons why people play it, but the importance of the old course in architecture, the importance of the history of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club being here since 1754. The importance of the open championship being around since 1860. I love telling winners that the phrase the champion

golfer of the year has been said now 153 times. Exactly the same words. And I think that is part of our, I think that's part of the framework and watch the rest of the game is built. Yeah. And culturally, it's different in the United States to its art than Ireland is different to Australia. And that's brilliant. But underneath it, there is still the segment of that that that deep history, you know, I've tried to make that deep history relevant to people to all around the world. It's not just for the cognoscenti, it's for everybody who likes hitting a white ball with

a piece of metal. Right. You mentioned a minute ago, the RNA governs everything outside of essentially US and Mexico. Majority of our audience is American. I'm two-sided question here. What do you see in the American industrial complex of golf that you like and you wanted to try to implement more on your side of the pond? What have you tried to desperately steer clear of that we keep messing up? I think on the former what I wanted commercially and telling stories is something that American

business but American golf does brilliantly and being permanently positive. And that's what I learned. We'll see. We'll see over the next few years. I learned that a huge amount. I think also I very much, you know, the American golfer, the industry is very well actually educated around the great courses in America, the great architects, they understand types of holes. I mean, I've played golf all my life. I have heard more people talking about type of architecture in the last 10 years than

I have in my previous 35 years of playing golf. And a lot of that comes out of America. So I've tried to take that piece of it and bring it into the world, around the world. And on the other side of it, I think what is the difference between golf over here and in quite a lot of the rest of the world outside of America and America is golf over here is much more of a public sport. It's a lower cost sport. It's ironically less formal.

Right. No, exactly. a lower cost sport, it's ironically less formal. I think America has become, is very expensive, very private, quite formal. I know this is a much longer history with land trusts and public trusts and all those types of things, but how would you sum up why that difference exists? But I mean, how would you sum up why that difference exists? I think it's where the game started in each in the relative countries. You know, if you look here, the game, you know, St. Andrews, the game started, I don't know, somewhere around the 1400s, 1500s. I'll let the historians argue about that exact date. But yes, there were the lords who played who played golf.

But it was, you know, it was a game for the people. We had a lot of artisan clubs in those days, in the early days. Golf was a really big thing on a Wednesday afternoon because that's when all the shops shut. That was built up over hundreds of years. They still laugh about the fact, you know, hanging out in Washington, Granny Clark's wine. But it's not just here in San Andrews. It's you had that where I where I grew up in Sussex as well. Whereas I think America golf, so golf in the UK started at the bottom and then the professional game emerged.

Yeah,ically, I think the game really started in America with the professional game or top amateurs, elite amateurs and then some of the professional game. Then it's worked its way down. I think that's why we come out in slightly different positions. Yeah, that is interesting to trace some of these places all the way back. You guys were gracious to invite us to the old course in reverse this past year, which was an unbelievable day. And one of my favorite little pieces of research in there

was for a while, both routings were just running concurrently and you had people playing both routings at the same time on the same day. And that tracing golf all the way back to the most famous golf course where like, that's how loose it was compared to what a great piece of land. I cannot wait to put houses on this thing. And then eventually we'll get to the golf is a, yeah, I could see how those two trains maybe started from different places, but

you really enjoy playing in reverse. Did you? Oh my God. It was, yeah. Makes sense now. It was perfect. It was a, yeah, I sense now, doesn't it? It was perfect. Yeah. I think that's the ideal world is just flipping back and forth every day. I know that's maybe not possible anymore these days, but it was a true tip top of the bucket list once in a lifetime, as cool as it gets. I couldn't say enough great things. Great to hear. All right. Moving a little more specifically into the world of recreational golf, what in your mind, you know, this is a big focus of what you guys have to think about each day. What's the what's the biggest monster under the bed right now for for

recreational golf? What what kind of keeps you up at night as far as where that game is trending? Well, that's that's a good question. The two things that keep coming up as the impediments for people playing golf or more or wanting to play golf is cost and pace of play. It is fascinating. Every time you do a market research about, give me the top five things for what will get you to play more golf, those two things come up every single time. It's not complicated, right?

It is not. The answers, yeah. It is not complicated. I mean, the plus side, I think the whole investment and engagement with health, the physical and mental health benefits of golf, the research, the WHO agreeing to it being good for you, that has made a massive difference in this post-COVID world where we're all

a lot more health conscious than we were. I think the role of non golfers to promote golf. And therefore, I mean, I always look at it, you know, if you look at the top golfers, their social media followings are okay. But 99% of them are people who already play golf. Yeah. Whereas actually, you start to engage some of the ambassadors that we've brought in and connected with us. They love golf. They love all the history of golf. But the vast majority of their social media following, which is magnitudes bigger, are people who don't

play golf today. That's how we grow the pie. And I think that's why to me why many of these podcasts have failed. And some of them have been unbelievably successful because they're attracting people who, oh, I like to listen to a bit more about golf, because that's a different way of thinking about it. Sure. So I think those two things on the negative side, I genuinely am concerned about the divisiveness in the men's professional game

I think that is turning it is turning off people from watching it is not turning off people from playing well that's exactly what I wanted to ask you about because the way I kind of put it in my notes was what How much connectivity do you think there actually is between? the elite professional game and the recreational game? Because I worked for the PGA Tour for a long time before I did this role, and it always felt like the word golf was like that meant PGA Tour golf, you know, to me for a very long time. And I think it took a minute to realize like, oh, golf and professional golf are

two different things. And I think that's kind of how a lot, I would even say like the vast, vast majority of golfers already think about it. And so I'm curious how you how you see that connection? What you know, how much do the two actually impact each other? So, you know, my head of golf development, who has been the real brains behind everything that we've done in promoting promoting and developing the game and should and should quite rightly take most of the credit. All of it. He and I have that debate all the

time. Yeah, I go if you go back 20 years, 25 years, then I think the stars of the professional game had a very strong correlation to how many people played. I think that correlation has been, I think it's been turned upside down now. Which to just make a finer point, stars might actually be star there, right? We might only be talking about Tiger Woods there. Oh, I was going back at Nick Clouse and Arnold Palmer. Unfortunately, that might be more than 25 years. Yeah, I'm getting a bit older. I know, I'm doing that more and more myself. I'm getting a bit older than that. I know, I'm doing that more and more myself.

Yeah, Stark, in that sense. I think there was a correlation there. I think there was a correlation between watching how the game can be played at a really high level and getting avid golfers to play more. I certainly saw that when I was in my 20s and 30s. You know, you're watching, okay, well, that's how to play golf at a next level. I think that's been completely inverted. And, and Phil thinks I'm a little bit, I'm a bit more extreme than he is. I think that there are very few players today who drive recreational golf. I think it's a lot more about people who like

golf from other walks of life have a far greater influence on getting recreational people to play than professional golfers. And I think when you couple that with this, you know, what I see and I've commented on many times in the men's professional game, which I think is what we have to get away from, hopefully in a new deal, is financial sustainability. People get that whether a game is financially unsustainable or not, and we have to find a way, in my opinion, that men's freshman golf becomes sustainable in the long term. But the whole dialogue and far more important, and I've seen it, and it saddens me in so many ways,

I've seen of the constant lead discussion is about money, whether it's prize money or about what someone's being paid or career earnings. People are bored by that. And they get turned off. What they want to watch is the great players on great venues. And they want to hear more about the values of the game. You know, why do you play golf? You because you enjoy being with your friends, right? And you know, you compete with your friends. And you know know, the integrity and the personal accountability of the game is what you stand on. I think why I stand on say I'm proud to be a golfer, you know,

I play by the rules. Nobody, you know, dollars, people don't tune in to watch golf to see about dollars. And I think that those two things, that actually could cause a delinking of the pro game and the amateur game. And that would be sad to see. All right, a quick break in the conversation here to talk about our friends at the Stack System. You've heard me raving about the Stack System on a couple previous podcasts.

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It's interesting. I was skeptical, Sully got me into it and I have not looked back. I've really enjoyed it. So without further ado, let's get back into our conversation. I remember when this podcast first started, even before I joined, it was always like, oh, those guys are, they're young and they're thinking about the game differently and blah, blah. And it's like, no, we're really not. Like we're pretty, we're pretty old in the way that we view it. And we really like the history and we really like watching golf on a Sunday afternoon as it is Maybe there's a few too many commercials, but we can take that, you know offline But I think what's really interesting now is as you try to I don't know

I would say lift golf into this place that maybe is possible. Maybe is not possible for a niche Sport to really achieve. I mean you just have to make these concessions that, you know, to try to get a new audience and try to attract people who are, you know, not interested in what has been on TV for the past 60 years. And instead you're trying to constantly shake it up. And it just, it feels to me like the,

again, I would kind of, I would accept the RNA from this, but it feels to me like I would point at the PJ tour more than anyone has just kind of taken that core for granted a lot and it just constantly feels like moving away from that core of like, why do I watch golf? Why do I like golf? And moving to kind of attract these people who don't really seem like they're interested in the first place is is my chief frustration, I guess with the game. So I don't know how that dovetails with kind of what you're getting at there.

Yeah, I think it's definitely consistent, but turn it on its head. Look at the opportunity. We are now, if you put in all the players in America, there's over 100 million people consuming golf. It's never been that big. So if we can find the way to make that connection, even with half of it, it moves from being a niche sport to being actually a lot more mainstream. And you know, and the amateur game, the recreational game is arguably now one of the largest participation

sports in the world. Right. Because, you know, it's not the largest sporting good business, absolutely not. But most of those sports, people don't actually play it once you get to about 18 years old. So I look at it as just a massive opportunity to be able to connect. I think the way we cover it, you know, I'm a golf fan at heart and nearly everything I do is because I'm a golf geek. I think the gold dust and a sports person, the gold dust is when you hear the best players playing on great courses, they're challenging them. And the conversation with the caddies about how do I get this shot in the best place? That is, I could listen to it for hours. You're preaching the choir. I know, I'm with you. And that's where I come back to, what's really interesting

to me is, you know, when we always make fun of the phrase, like, grow the game, because you hear it so much, but there's two different ways to kind of look at it, right? And there's growing that stuff that I feel like the core really loves. And there's, like, kind of pouring gas on that part of the product, which is, man, just hardcore golf stuff that really makes you like golf. And there's kind of the cotton candy. Maybe we can get this person to trick you into watching golf for 20 minutes and hopefully you stick around.

You know, and so I think it's those two things are just a funny balance to kind of watch play out. And I would imagine again, probably a frustrating, a frustrating push and pull for someone like you. Yeah, without a shadow of a doubt. But I mean, also what the the world we're now living in with with with YouTube, I find it really interesting that some of the some of the followings on YouTube crazy channels are that go how many people I know. So is

that doing what you were just talking about there? Is that? And those aren't sure they're not always short. No, they're, they're quite long. Like it's the opposite. That's the other thing when we first started was, you know, we were putting out these videos that were even 15 minutes and people were like, oh my God, nobody's ever going to watch that. That nobody's ever going to watch. That's way too long.

Like, I don't know. I think golf people will, will maybe enjoy it. We'll, we'll try it. And people loved it. And now, yeah, I mean, now it's like, watch me play all 18 holes, this is going to be two hours and 10 minutes. And you know, people love having it on their TV while they're working or while they're sitting like they watch it the same as if they were, you know, watching House of Cards

in the evening or something on Netflix, right? It's the same idea. Which maybe belies the whole argument that we need to make the media coverage shorter and shorter and... Agree. I kind of, I think, I mean, I'm biased because I look at it from the aspect of someone who loves the game,

but there is something different about watching the best players in the world play on the best golf courses in the world. Yeah. And it doesn't mean the oldest golf courses, totally means the ones that make them think, yeah. And allows them to differentiate. And, you know, there's ones, you know, there's something special about watching the best

players play on national opens. I mean, it's quite interesting. If you look at the the DP World Tour this year, a lot of their positive viewing figures have been when they've been going to national opens. Because people are really interested because they say, oh, goodness me, I can remember who won the French Open in 1956. Well, there's connectivity and there's context, right? Rather than...

Yeah. And that is what's so... I think we're missing that so much. I know, I agree wholeheartedly. I do have some more questions about the pro game. Before we move on, you mentioned COVID. So, all we've heard over the last kind of four years is like, oh my gosh, COVID has been a massive boon

to the recreational game. More people are playing than ever. What does that look like four years later? Has that stuck around? Was it a one-time injection of new players? From your perspective, how does that look now on the recreational game? If you look a little bit to history, and it's important to look at the history. 2006 to 2018, United States, the developed markets, us over here, the membership model was declining every single year from 2006 to 2018. And if you and I had been

talking about this in 2012, you'd have been asking me, what are you doing to try and- We need bigger holes, V. We need really big holes. There was ridiculous conversations going on. It started to switch in 2018, for lots of reasons. And then COVID came along and there about 5 million people. But we've added more than 5 million since COVID. I see. And kept most of the people who- That's more of a snowball than a one-time thing.

Yeah. So will it continue going at that rate? Absolutely not. But, and we may see some drops. But, you know, I always get annoyed when I read and I hear, oh, golf's only done well because of COVID. No, no, golf's done well better since COVID than during COVID. And I think that that is, is all credit to, to the game and to how it actually has an opportunity to grow. And I look at it, I used to spend a lot of time in those early years when I was here about trying to figure out where I thought how to grow the game. You know, I used to be a bit naughty. I'd walk into golf clubs and do some secret shopping. And I remember saying to a number of people who are saying, Martin, what are you doing about why can't we get more people to play golf? Why

can't they be members? And I'm going, I think you need to think about it like this. You are trying to sell a product that the consumer doesn't want to buy. Yeah. And if there's one thing that's changed in our mindset in the last 25 years, is it we're much more of a consumer driven society in every form. So the golf clubs that have done well in the last eight years actually are ones that have adapted their product to the consumer market that they're trying to attract. The ones are still struggling and there are struggling ones, I would argue have probably not changed their product and they're still expecting the

consumer to adapt to them. And the consumers can't do that. And that's that I think illustrates the difference between recreational game and the pro game better than anything, right? And where you can abandon dunes is sold out for the next three years as it should be. And the pro golf game is, I don't know what to tell you, man, take it or leave it, watch it or don't. This is just, we're not changing anything. And it just is, it's really illuminating to hear it spelled out like that. Okay.

I want to get into the pro game a little bit that you've mentioned. I want to start with, there's plenty of not so fun things to talk about, but one thing that is a good thing to talk about, a positive, I heard you talk about attendance at the open and how that has been a pretty sharp curve upwards over your tenure. I mean, that it sounds like an obvious place to start, right? Like, get more fans at the tournament. But I also, every conversation that we have about the game is about TV rights and sponsorship and player dining and courtesy cars and all of these things. And so it's, it was interesting and refreshing to hear you talk about like,

what if we just got more people at the golf tournament? I think it would feel bigger. And so I want to talk to you about that process a little bit and kind of what you, how you guys went about that. What do you attribute that, that growth to, and also what are some of the specifics, you know, specifics? How did it grow? Yeah, I mean put it in context. Roll Troon was my first open when I was responsible for it in 2016. We had 170,000 people in the week. This year we've just been to Roll Troon and we had over 250,000 people. We'd sold out the tickets a year in advance, 14 months in advance. There's a great phrase in life is,

the best leaders surround themselves with people who are better than them. So, you know, once I realized that, you know, our commercial model needed evolution and more bringing in house, I went and hired a really good commercial guy to run it. And Neil and I started to look at it and go, what is our ability to talk to our fans? And we started looking at our digital records, and this is back in 2016. And we had hardly any. And essentially, the way we sold tickets was we put them on the website and hope people would come. We started saying, well, that's not the right way to do it. What we need to do is two things.

One is we need to build an addressable audience of people who are interested in the Open Championship and ideally would like to attend the Open Championship if it was in the right location for them. And then secondly, how do we evolve from there into creating more scarcity in tickets? So it becomes a point of people saying, well, I've got to get that ticket now, otherwise I won't be able to watch.

And we started something, there was a whole series of steps that Neil ran through that, but one of the things they started was a thing called the One Club. So we started to realize that one of the differentiating factors that we had over everyone else, all the advantages, is that we were the oldest major. We were the first one to come. Serendipity is a wonderful thing in life. And we had that as a massive advantage. So we started the One Club, which is completely free. And it was all about you join the One Club

and you'll get access to some information, imagery, media, but also access to tickets. Well, we now have 1.4, maybe 1.5 million members of the One Club who are avid golfers. They love the open and they're the ones we talk to about selling our tickets and marketing our tickets. So that has created a completely different dynamic. And then we move slowly towards a ballot system for tickets. So it's created a completely different dynamic. Now a lot of people have turned to me and said, oh, there's too many people. The experience is bad.

Well, the other thing good businesses do is they get a lot of feedback. So we hired, we still do it every single year, an independent market research. Independent market research, they go around, they talk to the players, they talk to the media, they talk to spectators. And we've learned what people like and what people don't like. And the real trick about the more people you have is you've got to get all the logistics right. How do you move people really easily from where they arrive, if it's a train station

or a car park, into close into the event? How do you get them as close to the players? That's another thing maybe not to steal from America. You can maybe leave, I would do that one your own way. Don't follow us on that one. The practice ground, I'm a great fan. I love the practice ground. If I go watch a pro tournament, I spend most of my time sitting on the practice ground. I love watching the best practice. You know, we built big grandstands behind the practice ground. We were the first people to put top tracer onto the driving range and the big screen. Now everybody does it. Right. To be able to see. The fans love that. We put it on their phones. And all of that has created an amazing engagement with our spectators that we are now able to continue to grow the attendance. And

it's not, it's still work in progress and we'll keep, but we put the spectator at the center of what we're trying to do. So. And it sounds like even also putting the golf at the center of what we're trying to do. So, and it sounds like even also putting the golf at the center of what the spectator is experiencing, right? Because that's another exactly. That's another difference that I keep harping on is, is, you know, it's not tricking people into like, maybe we can get you into a festival. And then maybe you'll watch some golf while you're there. It's much more like, no, you're coming here to watch golf and we're gonna make the golf as exciting and accessible and interesting as possible.

We always like to poke fun at the best fans in golf and the most educated fans in the world and they know how good that lag putt was and all of that stuff. But I mean, all this stuff adds up and accumulates and builds on itself if you treat the game with respect and seriously and have people there to enjoy it, I think.

And that's certainly what we've tried to do. And others, there's some unbelievably good tournaments in America. So we have to be careful not to generalize. Of course. There's some brilliant tournaments. But putting the consumer at the middle is what it's all about. OK, maybe to the not so fun stuff.

You've talked and you mentioned earlier today about the concern about financial sustainability in the, particularly the men's professional game. I think everybody can understand the basics. If the purses get too high, the sponsors can't shell out enough money anymore. The TV can't shell out enough money anymore. The TV can't shell out enough money anymore. We throw life out of balance. I guess what I'd be curious about is what's around the corner from that? What happens next?

What's the breaking point? What's the tipping point? Where are we headed? I haven't got a crystal ball, know when I look at it from an RNA Perspective, you know, the the other aspect for us is that all the revenues that we generate from the open go back into the game That's how we that's how we're able to invest. That's how we build put money behind the development programs So it's really important to get that balance in that pyramid, right? around being you you know,

paying the right amount of money and doing the right amount of staging costs versus not taking all the money, taking money away from the game. I think every business and every sport has an equilibrium, has a sweet spot where all of this is in balance, where the great players, the great participants are being totally adequately recorded, rewarded for their play, where charities are getting the right amount of money, where there's enough money being allocated to get more sponsors in, where there's enough money allocated to get more people consuming the game at the grassroots and then they will be the ones who are coming to watch next year or the year after and and you get into that really good equilibrium where everything it's all in balance and everybody is winning and

That is when in my opinion is not where golf is at the moment I think golf was in it pre-COVID, actually. I think we were in a really good, I've said a number of times that I think when I started, there were a lot of new faces. I mean, Jay and Keith Pelley, and I give huge credit to Jay and to Keith for the way that they led the tours

in those days. And, you know, golf was in a really, really good place. And then, you know, then COVID hit us and they did an amazing job to get the tours back up and running. And they've not been given the credit for that. But ever since then, I think we've lost this balance, this equilibrium that all great businesses have have and hopefully it will start to come back as we realize that we do need people to be watching the telling the media coverage. We do need more people playing the game. We do need more sponsors

coming and bringing their clients. So the more we can talk about it, I think the more the equilibrium will return. Soterios Johnson 20.10 When you mentioned kind of the bottom of the pyramid for you guys, what is on that level? Again, I don't mean to keep picking on some of our friends in America here, but I think some of the outrage when people see $1,200 Ryder Cup tickets from the PGA of America or things like that is some of the other organizations aren't necessarily doing a great job of illustrating where that money's going. I think you kind of see from the PGA of America, you see the PGA Championship, you see the Ryder Cup, and

you see expensive tickets. You don't really know how to connect the dots. It seems like the RNA, whether it's the stuff you guys do with the Golf It Center in Glasgow or with women's golf for the you know golf or smaller spaces study stuff like that if you could kind of You know illustrate some of that bottom of the pyramid that that I don't know I mean, I guess is at risk right if if The game keeps trending this way. I think that would be helpful for fans. Yeah, I mean I Always look at it in terms of how do you how do you grow a pie? Will you grow a pie by getting more people involved? And you know, the funnel starts at the bottom.

And so a lot of what we've tried to do in our in these grassroots initiatives, which are their driving ranges, their pitch and puck courses, their simple nine hole courses, you talked about our Golf golf facility at Glasgow. The vast majority of people who we're trying to attract there are families who don't play golf today. Yes, we don't want our average golfers to come and practice and the facilities are good enough for them to do that. But the whole thing is designed around can you, can the whole family come and

can the whole family do different things other than just go play golf? And I do think we spend more time Talking to people who don't play golf and when they show an inkling of Interest how do we route them into the right place? Yeah, you know, we're using technology and it's and it's you know What I don't want to put names on it because it's inappropriate. But, you know, one of our ambassadors has, you know, 70 million plus social media followers, a lot of them are young women. And when he, when he tweets, actually what we're getting is a lot of these young

women say, Oh, I didn't realize golf was cool. I didn't realize. I, I, and then how do golf was cool. I didn't realize. And then how do we follow that up? How do we find that person and say, do you know what, go down the road here, and you'll be able to find this person here who will help you go and it's a friendly environment. And so that to me is so much more important. And those people do not know or aware of all the other issues that are going on in the game. They don't care about that.

Totally. And they're looking at, well, do I do that or do I go to swimming? Right. Or do I go to the gym with my girlfriends? Or do I go and play cricket? If you're in India. So for us, and what we're trying to do, we are looking at that grassroots. And we look at it in the terms of golf is we're competing against so many other interests. So how do we turn golf into

that product that those people want to buy as against other consumers? It's working. How much of that, at your guys' level, it's always hard for me to understand how much of that is studies and models and illustrations of what other people should be doing and how much of it is tangible, like we own this driving range, we own this pitch and putt. You know, can you shed a little light on that and how that works for a governing body?

I think historically, the governing body, as a governing body, we talked a lot more than we did. Yeah. We still talk a lot. But we've tried, we do a lot more practical implementation. So one of the drivers for me for Golf It was actually we needed a, I thought it was important for us to have a physical manifestation of what we believed is. And it's fascinating, a number of countries around the world are coming and looking at

it. They might not copy exactly what we did, but they really love the way it's attracting the next generation and providing a platform for people to take up the game who wouldn't take up the game otherwise. I should have said this up front, but can you just give a quick overview of what that is if people aren't familiar with it? Yeah. It's a facility in the northeast of Glasgow, which is in one of the poorer parts of Glasgow. It was an old golf course that was owned by the council, by the state in America, American

parlance, that was failing. It was in terrible condition. We said to them we wanted to build a facility that was all about for the people in the community that would attract people to have a Center around golf and so we bought the facility. We spent two years redeveloping it into a very simple nine hole golf course a Driving range, but we also have a venture golf in there. We have childcare facilities. So we have a nursery runs in it and then

cafe and very simple food. But it's all you go around it. There's no there's you can't see the RNA anywhere. There's no sign of the RNA at all. It's all branded as Golfit, which is intended to be both an adjective and a noun and saying, I'm going to Golf It or can we go to, you know, let's go and be Golf It today. So it's a really family friendly. Most of the employees live in the local community, youth trust, looking after young people in the community. We've given them some of the land to plant an apple orchard, and then they'll make apple juice out of that and sell it within the facility.

So, it's really, and it's lovely to go and watch people coming to it and really now in the community saying, this is our facility. And it's very exciting. So, we've talked a little recreational golf, a little professional golf. If you're trying to kind of prioritize these, triage these, if you have a genie come in, grants you one wish on your way out the door, you can wave your hand and your biggest problems taken care of, what are you wishing for? I'm going to be the politician, I'm afraid.

Wish for a million wishes. No, I'd say for me personally, I would love to see the recreational game continue to grow because I believe golf, Arnold Palmer says it's the greatest game mankind ever invented. I couldn't agree with him more. It's given me a lot. It's taught me a lot about life. It's given me a lot, it's taught me a lot about life. It's made me a lot of friends. It's given me a universal language to talk to

so many people about that I would never have, and I would love to see. When I came into this role, I never realized I had a passion for actually getting more people to play. Yeah. That would be my, there was one thing from a

personal point of view. I have but I have to say from the game's point of view is we we need some stability in the men's professional game, because there are some great players in this this generation, who I love to watch. And I think you love to watch as well. But I think we're all tearing our hair out seeing the the continual divisiveness and we just need stability. We don't, I don't mind whether it's one tour or two tours. We need stability and we need the best players in the world playing against each other more than

four times a year. So I'm sorry to be selfish and to personally- That makes sense. I see where you're coming from. What about, so if you're going to expound a little bit more, you know, if you're more, if you're going to have a sheet of paper for your successor that you're going to write nine or 10 things down and hand them, what's at the top of that list for them? You know, that's a really... I am resisting doing that because I've shaped this role around my personality and my interests.

And Mark is 20 years younger than me, but he loves sport. And he played England under 20 hockey. He's been working in sport for many years. He's very bright and very driven and loves the game of golf. And I don't want to do anything that influences how he wants to shape his agenda. You know, there's some things for him to be aware of, because, you know, there's lots of work in progress. But I'm really excited. I think, you know, you always seek to improve what you inherit.

That's a compliment. I really hope the Mark looks to improve the platform. I've left him because I think then I've done a good job to give him a platform and he's done a great job in improving it. I think you've seen the RNA become much more global, much higher profile in the last 10 years on a global stage. And I'm sure that will continue. You talked some works in progress. I'm sure there are people pulling their hair out

that I haven't asked about distance yet. You and Mike Wong gave us a lot of time when you first made the announcement of the rollback. So I would encourage people to go back and listen to that episode. That's another, we could talk about that for another six hours. I guess the only thing I would ask is just how the months have been since that announcement,

if there's anything new, anything else that's come to light just since the last time we spoke. I think there's a couple of things. One is it is clear that the RNA and the USGA have made a decision. The rules of golf change in January 2028 for the new golf ball. There is something kind of funny about that, right? Because you do still kind of hear like, well, we'll see what happens. It's like, no, it's happening. It's happening.

If you want to play by the rules of golf, the decision's been made. But I think there are two things. The highest priority at the moment is now working with the industry to figure out how to implement it in the most effective way. So that's a lot of the work going on. But I do think that the bigger picture outcome is, we hadn't done anything material in this space for 20 years. I think you guys talked about that quite a lot.

And therefore, a lot of people found it quite difficult that, oh gosh, we're going to make a change. And that's why we had to be follow process, we had to collaborate, we had to go through time and do it. But I think that has now created a framework that this is not one and done. There's more to come. But I think the framework is now in place where people are, they've got their heads around that this is going to be for the next decade.

So there'll be further discussions. The one thing I look at, and I think it's really important for you know, certainly all your listeners to just just to remember is that, you know, the RNA and the USGA have two things. One is, they are the only ones who are really truly independent in this. We got no skin in the game. So it's our job to to do that. But secondly, and I think more importantly, you know, a lot of people's job in the golf game is to worry about today. The RNA and the USJ, as I said, right at the very beginning of our conversation, it's our job to look to the future. Sometimes that's hard.

The whole balance of technology, skill, and the environment are real issues for us. I'll get you out of here with a couple just about your, your personal retirement here. You know, you've mentioned a couple of times, you're, you're a pretty certified golf geek, too handicap, I believe. There's gotta be, what's your, your dinner party anecdote? There's gotta be something that just gave you chills from a golf perspective. You know, a guy that, you know, like self, self described this job wasn't really on his radar.

There has to be something from the last nine, 10 years, like, I can't believe I'm standing here doing this. I think the favorite moment of 10 years, I have two to be balanced. One was Saturday night at Port Rush in 2019 after a really hard day's golf, the weather and watching Shane and Larry score. I don't know about you, but I quite often sit with my friends and say, what's the best five rounds of golf you ever saw? What's the best five? That's my entire career, Martin.

I would put Shane's round on Saturday in that weather in my top five. But to walk, I walked up to recording that night. I was dressed in a suit cause I had a business dinner after talking to sponsors and we were just going to make sure the draw was going. And there was just thousands and thousands and thousands of people around recording all singing Irish songs. And Shane was there. And that's my favorite memory by a mile.

And the second one was actually watching Lydia Ko's second shot to the 71st hole here at St. Andrews just a few months ago in the worst of the weather. And she just seemed to drop, I think it was a three where it doesn't really matter, just seemed to drop this club on the ball. And it just, I mean, arguably the 17th is the best golf hole in the world and got it up there and made four. And I thought, yeah, that's something special. I mean, that specific shot, that's why you talk about the old course as much as you do, right? You have a lifetime of talking about, like, eventually someone's going to have to hit a shot like that. And then the moment comes when the person actually does it. And it just feels like a culmination of, at least personally, like, all right, this is why I think

about this place so much. I mean, they're great answers. I'm thinking about those two moments, you know, since she was down my back. Fantastic. Well, give me something specific that you haven't done as a golfer. What are you looking forward to doing now? Is it a course you haven't played, a trip you haven't taken? There's got to be something. You know, one of the great privileges I played nearly every golf, really good golf course in the

world. Nearly. Nearly. The one I've not played is what many people rate is the best golf course in the world, and that's Pine Valley. Oh, gotcha. Sure. That's not my fault.

That's my fault, not Pine Valley's fault. They've asked me many times, and I've just never been up. So I want to go and play Pine Valley. I'm very fortunate to be a member of a club in Florida and I go and play play in Florida. I just want to I want to spend more time in in club life. Being with fellow members and you know trouble when you you know you work in golf you guys are the same you're away so many Saturdays and Sundays yeah but that's you know every privilege has a downside right that's right and I'm looking forward to actually being with friends on a and being able to say yeah I'll be there Saturday afternoon because at the end of the day it's like

you saying to you you know I just love playing the game. Well, yeah, I have a feeling you have a lot of nervy three and four footers in your future, which is a privilege. I have a lot. All right. Last thing, I'll get you out on this. You know, I'll take the cynical view. We talk about the downside of the game a lot. Pro game is a mess. People have their heads in the sand about sustainability of golf courses, housing shortages here in America, land values through the roof. You catch me on the wrong day. I can be pretty bleak about the game of golf's future. So I will ask you, are you bullish or bearish about the future of the game? I think it's the greatest game mankind ever invented, and I'm very bullish. Excellent. Well, Martin, I can't thank you enough

for all the time you've given to the podcast over the last decade and appreciate all the insights. I could sit here and talk golf with you for another couple of years. I appreciate everything. Congrats on a great tenure. Thank you very much indeed. And thanks for everything you guys are doing to get the game going. Cheers. Cheers.