No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 948: Joe Mayo

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

In a truly electric NLU podcast debut, Joe Mayo joins Soly and KVV to break down his working relationship with Viktor Hovland, the early days of using launch monitors to aid in his instruction, competing philosophies and misconceptions around what he teaches and a ton more. We really enjoyed having Joe on and know you'll enjoy our chat. Support our sponsors: Rhoback fanduel.com/nlu The Stack Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining The Nest: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at nolayingup.com/join Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about the end? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast, an electric edition of the No Laying Up podcast, if I may say so. We're going to get to our interview here shortly with golf performance coach Joe Mayo. Man, he has got some stories. This was an awesome interview. I can't wait for you to hear it. This episode was brought to you by our friends at Roeback. You all know Roeback, best fit, best feel. Didn't even have to ask Joe. He had a Roeback hoodie on when we started the interview. That wasn't even planned.

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Use code NLU at Robax.com for a generous 20% off your first order through the end of this week. That's R-H-O-B-A-C-K.com. 20% off jackets, Q-Zips, hoodies, and more with code N-L-U. By any further delay, here's Joe Mayo. How much teaching do you do actually do in the winter? Well, generally speaking, I'm, I'm going to travel, of course. So go down to Florida and whatnot.

I've, I've got to go to the Phoenix open, uh, the first week of February, and then I'm going to go to Naples, Florida And do a two-day clinic down there on February 18th to the 20th. So I do a fair amount Unfortunately here in Nashville as we just talked about it was three degrees last night So I actually believe it or not. I had a client who bought a couple of hours with me and he bought it weeks ago And I called him last night and I said the highest 30 degrees winds out of the north at 15. We're going to reschedule. He said I agree.

It's 33 overnight here in Florida, which was has everybody freaking out down here. But the strongest endorsement I can give for what we're gonna do today. This is the first episode I've ever been five minutes away from recording and ran downstairs to go pick up a golf club. Cause I just have a feeling I'm gonna need one of the course of this conversation. I don't necessarily usually love starting with, you know,

just background and kind of tell me your story, but the Joe Mayo origin story and how you've gotten to where you are is I think a big part of a lot of what we're gonna end up talking about today. So I don't know, where does the origin story kind of start for you in terms of how you got to where you are today? Well, I was born in and raised in a little small town in Western Tennessee. I was born in Cedar Grove, Tennessee, population of about 46 people.

They've got a general store and a post office and that's it. So when people ask me if I played golf as a kid, the answer is no, I did not. Because my parents, my parents were very poor. I came from very, a very meager upbringing. And for me, golf was a million miles away financially and geographically. And if you look at Cedar Grove, Tennessee on a map,

you'll realize there isn't a golf course within an hour. So even if there was one, I wouldn't have the money to go play to start with. So I started playing golf when I was 18 years old. And as I've said a million times before, right out of high school I was blinded. I had a terrible accident and I lost the vision in my right eye. And the doctors were trying to save the retina and they didn't want me jumping and bouncing because I was a volleyball player, basketball, I love to jump and they didn't want me doing that. And I'm like, well, I gotta do something. And then my friends that weren't good enough

to play basketball, football, and baseball, they played the sport called golf. And I said, okay, I'll go hit golf balls with these guys. And I was immediately captivated by the game. And as I've said before, I never played golf for the game, the enjoyment of the game. I was drawn to golf because of the perceived difficulty of it.

That's what drew me to it, the perceived difficulty because as I said, I started late and I started with vision gone in one eye. So I mean, I'm behind the eight ball right off the bat. So I knew I would never be a great, great player. So what drew me to it, as I said, was the perceived difficulty because everybody I spoke to told me how difficult this damn game was. So that's what spurred me on to try to figure it out. So here we are.

Joe, what was the circumstances that led to you being blind in one eye? The instructor, Jeff Smith, who teaches many PGA tour players, Patrick Rogers, Davis Riley, Max Grazerman, Jeff and I believe they're not went to the same high school. Okay. We've known each other since we were 15 and 16 years old respectively. Rogers, Davis Riley, Max Grazerman. Jeff and I believe they're not went to the same high school. We've known each other since we were 15 and 16 years old, respectively. Jeff was with me one day. It was October the 29th, 1991 at about 4 o'clock central time.

You never forget certain dates and times. And Jeff and me and one of our buddies, we were hanging out in this neighborhood. And at the end of the street, it was a wooded lot that had not been developed yet. And we were gonna throw eggs at people on Halloween night. And we were standing in this wooded lot because we were thinking, okay,

we're gonna throw the eggs toward the people and then we can run up the hill and they can't catch us. Well, the next lot down, there was this 10-year-old boy who didn't have the best parenting, didn't have the best upbringing, if you will. And he had one of those high powered air rifles, a crossman air rifle, pellet gun. And I didn't know what at the time, this was after the fact, but he saw us big kids and he thought, I'm going to take a shot. And he did. And he hit the bullseye. I didn't even know what happened. All I heard was a pellet coming through the woods.

It hit me like a Mike Tyson left hook. Down I went and I remember closing this left eye. And when I did, my right eye was black. And I looked up at Jelf and he turned white as a sheep. And I could feel myself going into shock. My body knew that I was hurt and I was hurt bad. And I just told myself, be calm, just keep your hands warm.

You know, just talking to myself and and. Jeff took me to the local hospital. I sat there for two hours. They finally transported me to a bigger hospital in Jackson, Tennessee, which is a city of about 70,000 people. They saw the extent of the injury. I was heavily sedated at that point, I mean, knocked out.

And then I was taken to Memphis and there was a team of doctors waiting on me when I got to St. Francis Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee. From what I remember, my mom told me, they came out of surgery during the procedure, they told my mom I would never see again, my retina was gone. We're gonna try to save the eyeball, but his vision was gone. So it changed my life forever.

How did you cope with that development in your life? I would imagine being kind of bitter and kind of angry, but how did you deal with it? Yes, yeah, I had that. I had a wild range of emotions, bitterness, regret, anger, resentment. I've experienced it all, guys. And when I start feeling sorry for myself,

we start feeling sorry for ourselves, like we all do. And then next thing you know, a commercial comes on from St. Jude, and you see the little six-year-old child with tubes sticking out of her because she's dying of cancer. And then we realized maybe we don't have it quite as bad as we think we do. But yeah, it was a horrific injury. It was a 10 million to one shot. I wish he'd have hit me right there between the eyes where I could have said, shit, that's what I wish, of

course. But you know, he pulled off the 10 the 10 million to one shot right there. But to answer your question, yes, I have struggled with that. I've struggled with some with some bitterness and resentment, and I I'm not giving myself any free passes, but I think it's to be expected. How does that work with golf? I mean, how does it? How does that work with depth perception? How does it don't have any don't have any. Don't have any. It affects me dramatically, especially when the lies are uneven, especially in a bunker, because I can't ground my club, of course.

So if I can't ground my club, then I don't know where the club is. I don't know where the soul is. So when I give a bunker lesson to my clients, I'll kind of cheat. I'm actually doing it because I want to help them, but it's my way of cheating. What I'll do is I'll take the club and I'll draw a little line in the sand right behind the ball, you know? Well, what I'm doing is I'm giving them a focal point where I want them to strike the sand, but it's also my way of finding the sand.

It's my way of measuring myself. But if you give me a random series of bunker shots, and I have to play by the rules of golf, which means no grounding, I have to go into a default strategy where I start hitting further and further behind the ball because I don't want to thin it. Because again, I can't tell you how close I am to the sand to me everything looks flat, it looks it looks two dimensional. That's a great question. Is that is it right to that if you only have vision in one eye you can't drive is that is that

correct? It's funny but it actually affects me positively in driving because even though I'm my mind says I'm really close to the car but actually I'm not. Okay. The problem is when people who have my condition think they're far away and they're actually close. Okay. So my condition actually gives me a buffer to stay away from people and that's purely random. I asked my physician about that years ago and he said, Joe, there's no rhyme nor reason as to how your brain is perceiving the image that you're getting from that one eye. But for some people that are monocular, they feel like they're far away. They're actually right on someone and that can be a serious problem. But on my license, I do have a restriction. I have

to have outside mirrors. It is illegal for me to drive a vehicle without outside mirrors. Okay. Interesting. I never thought we would talk about the legality of mirrors on a golf contest. No, it's one of the many interesting, you know, aspects of your life. And I'm guessing there's a few things that happened between that day in 1991. And, you know, you, you meeting a young man named Victor Hovland in 2019. And I'm not racing right to Victor Hovland part of the story, because there's a lot in between there. How did you end up getting into golf, maybe getting out of golf for a while back into golf? It's, it's a fascinating story. Well, I've told it a million times, so I'll give you the condensed version. I fell in love with golf was hitting

balls training all the time. If it was a golf book, I had it or read it. If it was a VHS tape and for you younger guys this is back in 1991. If it was a VHS tape, I had it. PJ Tour I watched it. I could tell golf swings. I remember watching the old champions

tour guys John Bland back in the days of Palmer. I remember Simon Hobday. I mean, Gibby Gilbert, Larry Gilbert, I'm pulling names, you know, from 30 and 40 years ago out of the head, I watched golf so much, I could tell you their swings from just not even knowing who was actually hitting. I knew every swing, every book, every every article in a magazine, there was a show that was called Inside the PGA Tour.

And it would come on every Sunday night, and it would have about a 10-second instructional clip, and I couldn't wait for that show to come on. Back in 1997, I got my first real job in golf, and I moved out to Palm Springs, and I was working out in Rancho Mirage at PGA West, was out there for a couple years. And I was helping people on the side, but I wasn't getting any better, and they weren't getting any better. And I knew a long time ago that the books didn't have it. I knew that that wasn't right, because if you want, if you read a golf instruction book, they would tell you to get in this position, and this

position, and this position. And I thought, well, Lee Trevino doesn't do anything like that, and he can give us all five aside, so that book can't be right. I knew they were missing something. But back in 1998, 1999, we didn't have the cell phones with the good cameras. We didn't have the 3D. We didn't have all the pressure plates. So it's kind of like being a biologist, but you don't have a microscope. You're extremely limited. I read all those Golf Digest as a kid, and I don't think any one article ever helped me even one little bit.

You got worse. You got worse. Probably. I just didn't understand what I was reading. Because in May they would tell you to drive your knees to drive it better and then three months later they would tell you to have quiet knees. I'm like, well, wait a second. Do I drive my knees or do I have quiet knees? So I remember very clearly I was frustrated. I saved up my money and I went out to see Jim Flick out in Desert Mountain, Arizona and he charged me a thousand bucks for that day and it might have, it should have been 10 million because it was all I had. And I was out there with Jim and Jim was a wonderful man. He was such a great, nice human

being, but I was asking questions that Jim just couldn't answer. He just couldn't. And looking back on it, he couldn't answer those questions because nobody could. We didn't have the technology to answer those questions. And he couldn't help me. And I went back home to Palm Springs and I was so frustrated. I sold the ball, bag, putter, irons, driver, the whole nine yards. And I said, to hell with this game.

I'm done with it. And I moved to Los Angeles to the beach, Manhattan beach. And I got here. Just what questions are you asking that he didn't know the answers to? What was I'm curious here. I can tell you this much. I was a push cutter. And now I know why.

Because I read the books that said we want to lag the club. You want to get that shaft close. You want to get that shaft close, you know, you want to get that angle between the lead forearm and you know, we now know that when you do that, the wrist oftentimes cups to do that and when the wrist cups, this face generally opens unless you have a really strong grip the face will open. So you know, I would lag it and man, I'd get it down here and bam, I'd hit it 40 yards dead right. And I'm asking, you know, Jim,

why is that happening? And he, and he would say something like, apply the tool to the back of the ball, use the club as it's intended. I'm like, now Jim, come on now, you got to give me something more than that. And the answer was I had an extended lead wrist, which caused the face to open, which caused the ball to project to the right push cut. So that was, that was the big one. Push cuts drove me out of golf. The push cuts drove me insane. I remember, and this is not a lie, I broke the same sand wedge three times in one day.

I was chipping it so badly, I broke it around a tree, I whipped it around a tree, broke it. I drove to Palm Springs to a guy called the club doctor. You guys can look him up. I'm sure he's no longer living. He was an elderly gentleman back in 1997, 98 I broke it. He fixed the shaft with that quick drying tour epoxy. I take it home. I break it around the same tree again. I take it back to him.

He shafts it a second time and I break it a third time and I said, fuck it. And I threw it in the lake. So I broke the same wedge three times in one day. So people that have chipping problems, I know all about them. it and I threw it in the lake. So I broke the same wedge three times in one day. So people that have chipping problems, I know all about them. So back to Manhattan Beach now. We're in Southern California here. Now take us this part. They just opened up a golf Smith store right there on El Segundo Boulevard. I mean, it was brand new and I applied for a job. I got the job. And while working there, I met a professional poker player

he loved golf and We got to know each other and he got to figure out how my mind works and I remember clearly him saying Joe He said I've been doing this for 25 years and I have never Recommended this life for anybody and he said I probably never will But for you, I will he says I think you have what it takes to play for a living. And I grew up playing cards. I couldn't play 25 card games, rook, rummy, gin, euchre, canasta, uno.

I mean, just whatever you want to play. And I remember going to Hollywood Park Casino and commerce and hustle and the bike, but specifically Hollywood Park. I sat behind him every night, every night, six weeks minimum. I trained, I read books, I discussed hands with him, and I started playing cards for a living.

And he staked me. I remember right now as I close my eyes, I can remember the first night that I played poker as a professional player, which means my livelihood depended upon it. And I did that up until 2008. And in 2008, my father is diagnosed with cancer. I moved to Tennessee, not far from where I am right now, to be with him. And I cannot remember when it happened, but you have to guys, you guys have to understand I've been out of golf now for eight, almost nine

years. And I don't, I don't even think about golf. If I never see a golf ball again, I could care less. And we're sitting in a doctor's appointment from the best I remember. And I picked up some type of a golfing publication and there was a mention of a thing called track man. And I said, holy shit, that's it. That's what I've been waiting on. And at that time I had moved to Vegas, about a year. So I go back to Vegas in 2009, cause I had to make some money. I got into retail golf and I met a doctor in Las Vegas

who kind of like that professional poker player. He got to know me and how my mind works. And he said, Joe, I'm going to get us a track man. I said, oh great, they're only $26,000. I'll put in $500 and you put in 25,500. We'll get one." He said, sure. And I remember that the day that thing came in and I plopped it down and I just had people start hitting shots and it didn't take long to see the

geometrical pattern start to form themselves. And there we are. Joe, what do you think it is about your brain that made math so appealing? That was the math of poker, you know, knowing how many cards, the probabilities out of the math of like this track man says this. Why do you think that will work for you? I have no idea.

I've been asked that question a million times and I've thought about it a million times. It's just, you remember the movie, Good Will Hunting, Matt Damon? And he's talking to the girl and she says, how can you do this stuff? This stuff is so hard. And he said, well, when Beethoven sits down behind a piano, he can just play.

He said, when I sit down behind a piano, I just see a wooden box with keys. Math has just been very intuitive to me. I don't know why. Looking at things in a three dimensional perspective, spatial reasoning, those things just resonate with me. And some things don't resonate with me. Like I don't care to read William Shakespeare. I me, like I don't care to read William Shakespeare. I have, but I don't care to read literature,

but I enjoy, I mean, I know you're not gonna believe this, but I promise it's true. On my Kindle right now, I have calculus textbooks, I have physics textbooks, I have logarithm charts on my Kindle, I know that sounds crazy, but I enjoy having a nice glass of bourbon with Netflix running in the background at one o'clock in the morning. I am reviewing calculus or physics or logarithms or trig. I know that sounds crazy, but I enjoy it.

Is it natural? As I understand it, or correct me if I'm wrong here, I listened to your podcast episode you did with Jason Sutton, but you got a perfect SAT math score. Yes. So is it a natural thing to you and your curiosity extends, I guess builds off of it being natural, or is it all kind of orchestrated on your own? I don't know how to ask that. No, it's something I've always had an interest in,

even in school. And trust me, I didn't have the best grades in the world. Because I didn't take high school very seriously. But yeah, the math and the sciences have always been my thing. I've always enjoyed it. So yeah, that was I guess you could say that was kind of natural. But so you had this track man now you you have what's what's what's next here? What are you learning about the golf swing? Are you getting the answers to these

questions that you wanted a decade ago? And are you, I mean, do you consider yourself kind of like a pioneer in this space in terms of the use of this and how it gets applied at the highest level of the game? I would say so. And I thought you were going to say expert and I was going to say no, because I don't like that word expert. I don't, I don't like that word expert. I don't I don't like expert at all. I don't know what an expert is. How much expertness, what degree of expert are you? When my track man came along 2009, there were two other instructors that had one. I know James lights had one down in New Orleans and

Brian Manzella had one down in New Orleans. James and Brian did not travel the tour. And the biggest break of my life, and I owe him a debt of gratitude that I'll never be able to repay, was I befriended Grant Waite. And that connection was made by Dana Dalquist. I know you guys know Dana out in Southern California. Grant was doing a golf school in Las Vegas around 2010 and Dana said, hey Grant, there's a guy out in Las Vegas, his name is Joe Mayo, I think he's the best in the world with track man, that's him talking, not me. And Grant says, well, I'd love to have him come out. So Grant calls me up and he said, Joe, I want you to come out and lecture. And I'm like, I'm not so sure you do

because I'm going to say some things that are not going to jive with what's accepted to be true. And he said, Oh, no, no, no, I want you to do it. So I came out there that day and there were PJ tour players there. They were, if I'm not mistaken, Bill Lundy was there. Dean Wilson was there. We had two or three tour players there. And then there were guys that were trying to play professional.

So we had, it was good players. These were all plus handicaps, professional players. And I was lecturing about the geometry of the swing plane and angle of attack. And I could see their eyes were just spitting like a slot machine. And when the day was over, I thought, man, I really blew it. You know, I had my one shot and I blew it. And Grant called me, I can't remember a day or two later. He said, Joe, I loved it because Grant likes that stuff. And he said, Joe, I loved it.

So we developed a friendship and I can't remember again that the timeline, let's call it a year later. I saw an opportunity and I took it and I said, Grant, why are we not in business again? I said, I've got the track, man, and I understand it implicitly. I know the math. I understand all the 3D. And I said, you've got the credibility with these players, you know, because as you know, Grant could hit a golf ball and he can hit it at an extremely high level. And I said, we've got a perfect pair. And he said, I like that.

So he just trucks me out to the PGA tour. And one day, you know, one day I'm Joe Blow from Kokomo with 500 bucks in my checking account and nobody really gives a shit what I have to say. And overnight, I'm teaching Brian Gay and I'm in front of the best players in the world with the Bob Hope out in Palm Springs. And that's how it went down. All right, if you're listening to a podcast with a golf coach, I'm guessing you want to get better at golf. This is my opinion. My eyes are looking at the camera.

I'm not reading any script on this. I think the best way to get better at golf on a per minute basis, if you're a busy person like I am, don't have a ton of time to dedicate to it. The stack system.com code, no laying up. We'll get you 10% off their bundle package, which is going to add speed to your swing and give you all kinds of other benefits. First of all, it's a very easy program to do. It takes maybe 35 minutes, including the warmup. The warmup is added to my flexibility.

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Joe, what were some of the myths about like TrackMan when you started? What did people think? They think it was like black magic. I mean, what are Joe, what were some of the myths about like Trackman when you started? What do people think? Do they think it was like black magic? I mean, what are we dealing here with some of the... Oh man, I took some shit. Oh buddy, did I? I got called everything that you can imagine. Woohoo! I remember those people very well. Yeah. And now they've got a Trackman. Isn't that amazing how that shit works? You know, 10 years ago, they couldn't plug it in the wall. It was a paperweight and they ran me down and I'll be damned if they don't have one. It is funny how that shit works.

You got a strong memory I could tell. I could tell. A hell of a memory, trust me. You want names, addresses, and social security numbers. I've got that too. Hey, you said you wanted honesty. No, I'm rigging. You're got that too. Hey, you said you wanted honesty. You're going to get it. My give a shit meter went out the window years ago. So yeah, I remember I was, I was run down. I was

called everything. I was just a computer reader. I was a wannabe golf pro. I remember the things that were said about me, trust me. But first and foremost, I'll just roll some things off. And I mean, you know, golf instruction has had some ridiculous, absurd things that they've told people hit down to make it go up. I mean, is that ridiculous or what? You don't hit down to make the ball go up. And I remember lecturing with Grant, you know, back in 2011 12, we used to do these golf schools together where we would lecture on the ball flight laws. And I'll ask you guys right now, if I tee up a ball four inches high, if I tee it up four inches high, right? And I get behind it

with my driver and I hit up on it. What does the ball do? It's going up. It goes up. So in other words, you're telling me that I hit up to make it go up. Right. Great. Now you're telling me that I got to hit down to make it go up. Well, how the hell do I make it go down? If you hit up to make it go up and you hit down to make it go up, you see how Albert Einstein, he doesn't like that. That just doesn't fit very well. You know, sir, Isaac Newton, he doesn't care for that. You asked me to make it go down. If you'd asked me like two hours ago, but I can't you hit down

on it to go up. Like, down. If you'd asked me like two hours ago, but I can't, you hit down on it to go up. Like, of course, no, you can go down. I still see like top level instructors giving that to like wide groups talking about, you know, you should hit down on the ball. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's silly, but oh, well, who am I to judge track man? Uh, also proved that, cause I know you guys have heard this one. The ball starts on the club path. And cursed where the face is pointed, that's absurd. It starts pretty much where the face is pointed, not 100%,

but close enough that we can say. That the initial start line of a golf shot. Is predominantly where the face is pointed. And then it curves away from the club path, curves away from the path. But the big one, and I have said this to Frederick Tuckson many times and Frederick was the inventor of Trackman, the biggest thing that Trackman has given the industry

as far as the data, the numbers. Now, obviously being able to measure all of this huge, but specifically when he showed how the golf club is moving down some amount and it's also moving out some amount. In other words, the three dimensional aspect of the club path and the way to visualize it is this guys, if I've got this pin, imagine this is my golf club, right? The ball's on the ground and I've got a seven iron club heads right here that golf club is moving down but it's also moving where guys for out it's moving out okay

out okay now think about this over to it exactly it will, it's not going up. It's not going up and that golf club will move down and out until the lowest point. Won't it? Of course it will. But here's the thing. Here's the, here's the trick guys. If we hit an iron shot correctly, which means we hit the ball before the lowest point, that means if a ball is on the ground, the club is moving down and out some amount. That and out piece, that was the moneymaker, that and out part.

It's moving down and out. And if the ball's on a tee and we're hitting up on it, it's moving up and in some amount. So that three dimensional aspect of that club path was the biggest thing that Frederick Tuckson has given the world of golf. And just specific to that is that a main reason why we see so many guys on tour, maybe you say 95% of the guys on tour. I don't know if that number is accurate, but fading the driver being like if

they're hitting up on it, that means the club is moving left. And that's a dangerous thing to be moving it right to left with the club moving left. Is that kind of speak to modern driver strategy? I think that's a very plausible way of looking at it. I, yes, I love drawing the irons and fading the driver for the reasons that you just spoke about. In other words, here's what I mean by that.

And for some people watching this, it may be difficult to pick up on it. But imagine my nose is the flag and we're coming right at me. And I'm 175 yards away. Okay. If you're aimed at me with the ball on the ground, you can aim at the flag. And because the club is moving down and it's moving out, that out piece helps the ball draw to the target. You see what I'm saying? Because the club is moving down and out.

If you're fading the ball, you can aim right down the fairway, but because the club is moving up and in, like you said, that helps the ball cut. It doesn't guarantee it but it helps it. Now let's flip that. Here's where the math gets interesting. The ball's on the ground, you've got a seven iron and you want to hit a cut. Now as we know if you're a right-handed golfer to hit a cut the face has to be pointed

some amount to the left of the flag when you hit it, just start it there. And the rest has to be left of the, where the face to make it cut. But wait a second balls on the ground. That means the golf club is moving down and out. Now what do we have to do? Listen closely. We have to aim left enough to counteract the out created by the down. So a drawer can aim at the flag, the down and out is built in, draws it right to the flag. The cutter has to aim way over here to the left because he's got to get rid of that out. He's got to bring that way over here to cut the ball.

Whereas driver, if he's hitting up on the driver, that helps him cut it in there because hitting up makes the path go to the left. What if he wants to draw it? And guys, I'm going to tell you a little quick story. I watched this lesson get screwed up 10,000 times in my life. I have seen not so much now, but I remember a decade ago,

watching a good player, professional golfers, standing on the tee, on the lesson tee, perfect swing on camera. It looked on plane to the naked eye. It was beautiful. And the ball would fade a little bit, right? It would start right down the middle and it would fade to the right.

And the golfer's like, damn it, I want the ball to draw. What do you think the instructor said? You gotta release the club, you gotta solve this shit. You look at the track man numbers what do you think you saw? Angle of attack is up causing the club to be club path to be what negative two negative three. Where do you think the ball's gonna gonna go because if he closes the face to that negative three club path it's gone now you got to pull hook and all you have to do you don't want to release the damn club what do you got to do is this you let him hit up you let the path stay to the left and you just aim him slightly to the right. So what you're doing is you're counteracting the leftness created by the up by aiming it to the right. Now you can draw the ball.

Takes five minutes and he's out of there. I watched that lesson get screwed up so many times. I've got a tournament three weeks from now. This is either the best idea I've ever had or the worst idea I've ever had right before a tournament thing. Or you're going to walk in at the turn one, the two in a week, I might be calling you. And even if it is 30 degrees, we're doing a lesson in person. So I was going to get you on retainer before gas. Joe, when you were explaining some of your ideas, like I know Brian, he was an important person in your life. He kind of put his, you know, entrust in you. Tell me a little bit about that.

Why do you think Brian's brain and your brain kind of were synced up in this? Well, Brian's very introverted. He's very quiet. I'm sure you guys have been around him. He doesn't say a whole lot. You have to almost pull it out of him. But Brian's a, he's a smart cat and he knows when you're full of shit. He does, even though he might not say it, but he knows it.

And sometimes he'll ask questions of people knowing that they don't know what they're talking about. He'll try to You got to be careful with him because with me he would say how'd that look? And I'll say I don't know I wouldn't watch him because I realized you say all that look good He'd say well, it felt like shit. So there's your opinion. He'll catch me and things like that I caught that very early on with him. So he's a very, very smart guy. And there are not, are not five PGA Tour players in the world that know more about their swing than he knows about his. Trust me, this cat is smart and he loves numbers and he loves track man. He loves 3D. He knows all that. He knows all the terms. He knows flexion,

extension, owner, radial. He knows all that stuff. That's one reason that we kind of jelled, but he and I were also very friendly off the golf course. We got along. And guys, as you've heard me say before, I know I've got a strong personality. I know I talk a lot and I am man enough to admit that I am a lot to handle at certain times, I get it. And my personality is not for everybody. It's just not. I'm very direct. I'm very straightforward. I call it like I see it. And some people just either can't handle it, or they don't want to handle it. But Brian was okay with it. And I think that that's what kept us

together for eight, eight and a half years. What did what did the kind of talk about the relationship between Trackman and Data and being around Brian Gay, how that kind of started your teaching philosophy or kind of spoke to how we get into the short game stuff that you're Iowa would say, I would say world famous for teaching and preaching on these days. Well, that, guys, I got lucky on this one. I backdoored myself into it and I had no idea that what

I was doing that day or those days would come back to give me so much value. But it was no secret when I started with Brian that he was a world-class chipper and pitcher. World class. I mean, elite. We all know that. I remember very clearly. It's 2013 or 14 and we're at the Phoenix open and we're in the bunker. And John Tillery, who's an instructor out there on the tour, he came by and said, Mayo, what do you do when BG, Brian? He said, what do you do when BG picks up that sandwich? I said, I go sit down and have a beer. You want to join me? What the hell can I tell this guy? He chips it like God. But I had the wherewithal to measure him. And I know that's where you're

going. I measured him many times. I've posted photographs of me with a track man behind him on the chipping green at the Phoenix Open 10 years ago easily. And I remember very clearly the numbers that he was putting up. And this guy's angle of attack was just steep as shit. It was unbelievable. And if you watch him on camera, hitting a little chip or a little pitch, the club head, my finger is steep.

I mean, it's coming out of his jaw. It's like this. Something that you would almost never want to see in the full swing, of course. But I mean, that club was out here out here and then he would just stand straight up like this and just chip it like this every single time and people would say well he's just gifted he's just got good hands I'm like well there's more to it than that there's more to it than that. There's more to it than that. He has a technique that produces incredible results

under the highest levels of pressure. Let's find out what these numbers are. So I measured it and without question, doing that was a, it kind of jump started me when I started the short game stuff two years ago. If I had not made those measurements, then it would have, I would have had to have taken the time to figure that stuff out and put it together. But having Brian's data and having, having knowledge of what he did back in the day made

this so much easier. And that's, that's the honest truth. I give Brian credit for helping me teach short game What what are the numbers say? Well, what you know what did it surprise you? I guess when you looked at it Well, I wasn't surprised because I didn't know what I was looking at Didn't know at that time. I mean this is this 2025 guys. I mean, this is shit. This is 13 years ago 2012 2013. That's a long time ago I didn't know what I was looking at,

but what I did know was the numbers were outliers. I knew that. I mean, I'm looking at angles of attack of 10 down, 12 down with virtually no divot. I'm like, holy smokes, he's as steep as shit. And then on camera, as I just said, the club head coming out of his jawbone from down the line, his swing plane extremely steep, extremely steep.

But there were two things also that I noticed. Again, repeating myself, he would stand up visibly through impact, he would stand up. And also how low he launched these balls. And I don't think that the everyday golf fan out there at home I don't think they realize how high these players launched their driver And how low they launched their wedges It did amazing. Whereas the club golfer he launches his driver too low to hit his wedges too high What when I when a good player comes to me and says exactly me too when a good player comes to me like a college Friend says Joe I suck at wedges already I already know what it is. Already know it's too

high period. I've never that I can recall had a good part and I term a good player is anybody in plus handicap. I've never had a good pair of say, Joe, I suck with my distance wedges because he hits him too low. It's like I can't remember ever telling an amateur golfer that their ball position was too far forward in a bunker. It's always too far back. So with Brian watching him hit these chips everything was launching at 27, 28, 29 degrees, 28, 27, very low launching, very high spinning, and every number across the board was extremely steep. He wasn't doing any of this get shallow use the bounce stuff, none of it.

And I will put that cat up against anybody when it comes to hitting a tough chip shot with a PGA Tour tournament on the line. Give me him because he can find out, do it. I'll tell you a real quick story. And this was confirmed by Brian. There's an instructor out of Florida. His name is Julio Newt in UTT, Julio Newt and Julio a decade ago said, Joe, I want to tell you something about your boy, Brian gate and Julio, if I'm not mistaken, was playing golf at LSU.

Brian, of course played for Florida Gators. In the SECs, Brian's playing last. Hits the driver down the middle on 18. And Florida's legendary coach, Buddy Alexander, walks off the green down the fairway and says, Brian, you got to have a birdie. We got to have a birdie getting to a playoff. If you make par, we're out.

Hits it to a foot. How many 18 year old kids can do that? I'd have hit a foot behind it. He hits it to a foot. And Julio Newt told me the story. I said, BG did that happen? He said, yeah. How'd you find out?

I was like, that doesn't matter. So wedging has always been his forte. And I said this 10 years ago, and this is a mountain, this is a hill that I will die on. If Brian Gay could have driven it like Dustin Johnson, everybody else can just go home. Yeah. He was like truly one of the best. We've always said he's like one of the best golfers of all time. He just didn't drive it anywhere. And as the game trended the opposite direction, he just kind of got put out to pasture on that. But, uh,

and genetically not his fault, but I'll tell you a funny story. My good friend, Tommy, over the third has told me on and Hey, Tommy's played with everybody, right? Tommy's what 63 now he's played with them all. He said, Joe, the best golfer that I've ever seen is Corey Pavin. He said the most gifted golfer I've ever seen is Corey Pavin. He said the most gifted golf I've ever seen is John Daly, which I concur. If you were to say, Joe, what is your favorite golf swing in the history of golf? I would say John Daly circa 1991. Oh my God. Wow.

Are you kidding me? Could hit it 280 when 280 was 280. So he said Corey Pavin is the best golfer of all time because Corey Pavin swung his driver 98 miles an hour, you know, and then we know what he did at Shinnecock, hit the forewood at Shinnecock to win the open, right? It's such a funny number. Unbelievable. And Brian Gay, guys, he won four times on the tour with him. And the day I met him, the first day I met him, Brian's ball speed with the driver was 156. Oh, my God.

And the last thing I'll say about Brian Gay, this is 100 percent true. He finally let me do some speed training with him as our tenure was coming to a close. The last Las Vegas tournament he played, the Shriners, one hundred and seventeen point three miles an hour club speed, 174 ball speed. Pat McCoy, who is the tour guy for Fujikura Shouse. I said, Pat, come look at this shit. He's hitting 173, Brian Gay, 117. I said, Pat, where are the cameras?

Why aren't you people filming this? All you do is film Dustin Johnson and Rory and Tiger. We all know they can hit 500 yards. This is the blue collar golfer. This is the average. This is the working man's golfer. And he's swinging your shelf at 117. He wins two weeks later in Bermuda.

Fact, not an opinion fact Fact. Brian Gay 117 and believe it or not the fastest I ever saw him was a 118 mile an hour clip at speed. Did you ever think you'd hear Brian Gay and 118 miles an hour? I never knew this happened. He did it. He did it. Back to his chipping and the kind of a 10 down number, I've heard, you walk away from learning that. I'm curious what the range looks like on tour, but among top players and among top short game players, if that is a separate question of what their angle of attack is, right?

Cause I've watched Jordan's speed chip. I watched Scottie Schaeffler's chip. I can't tell what their angles of attack are. I don't know the numbers. I'm wondering, is it a uniform thing that if you are a good chipper of the ball, you have a steep angle of attack? Well, that is a great question.

Here's the answer. And see, I have been pigeonholed by my competition or my competitors, if you will. I have never said you have to be steep to chip it well. And I've never said steep is the only way. And I've never said shadows bad. I've never made those statements.

What I have said is steep is not bad. It is not. And Brian Gay is living proof of it and Victor Hollen is living proof of it and Scotty Shuffer is living proof of it. It is not bad. To answer your question, to determine angle of attack without measuring it, we need two things. What's the intent of the shot and what kind of lie are we hitting off of? And here's what I mean by that. And I am confident on this one. If we had Shelford and Victor and Xander and Terrell Hatton,

and Terrell Hatton is one of the greatest chippers I've ever seen in my life. If we take them out to the chipping green and we say boys hit a low spinner to that back pin from 15 yards away hit a low spinner you'll be amazed at what you see. You're gonna see that 60 degree wedge get delofted down to 42 to 45. That's the first thing you're going to see. Now think about what I just said. If you've got 60 degrees of loft in your hands and you give the ball 42 or 43, what have you done? You've taken away 17 degrees of loft. How did they do that? Lean the shaft. Bingo! But you've been told that shaft lean is bad and that's a crock of shit. It's not. It's absolutely required. How the hell

do you take a 60 degree wedge and give the ball 42 degrees of loft without leaning the shaft? How do you do that? It's silly, but people have been told that shaft lean is bad. That's strike one. It's silly, but people have been told that Shafling is bad. That's strike one. The second thing that you will see when they deloft it to 42, 44, 45 dynamic, you're going to see the launch angle do what? Come down. Come down. And if you ask them to specifically hit the low spinner,

you're going to see launch angles of 30 degrees or less, period. If you ask Victor to hit a 15-yard low spinner, you're going to see launch angles of 30 degrees or less, period. If you ask Victor to hit a 15-yard low spinner, he's going to launch it 26 to 28, seven days a week, 31 days a month, period. The third thing that you're going to see is you're going to see angles of attack that are double digits down, period. And this is why the thing that you've heard me talk about for the last two plus years spin loft, right spin loft. It's an angle. The top of the angle is dynamic loft, which I just told you is going to be 42 to 45 degrees. The bottom of

the angle is the angle of attack. Well, guys, watch, I'm going to leave the dynamic loft alone. And let's say that's 45 degrees just for shits and giggles. If I start getting shallow, shallow, shallow, my spin loft starts to close down. When my spin loft closes down, what happens? Spin dissipates. it goes away. I want the spin loft to open up to do two things.

Slow the ball down and make it spin. So I'm going to leave this one at 45 and I'm going to drop this one to 10 or 12 down. Now look at that spin loft. And I'll give you a little funny story about this. We know it's not an opinion. It's measured. The guys at ping all those PhDs will come on here and tell you. Yes, Joe is telling you what we've measured. We know that 55 degrees of spin loft is a great place to be in the short game shots. It's not an opinion.

55 degrees gives us a slow ball. It gives us a boatload of spin, but guys, it gives us predictable launch angles and spin rates. If we start getting into 60 degrees of spin loft, 65, yes, we can get slow balls and we can spin the shit out of it. But when you get to that level of spin loft, we get slippage. You might hit a random ball that just takes off. In other words, 55 keeps us in a great spot, a safety zone. And think about this. If the dynamic is 45 and the whole angle needs to be 55,

what does the bottle need to be? 10 down. I didn't just grab this shit out of thin air. And I love it when these people come at me and they attack me on this. I just sit back and I get a nice glass of George T. Stag bourbon and I'm like, watching these people fucking argue with math. I mean, people think I'm getting mad. I'm fucking laughing.

Cause you're arguing with fucking measured data. You're sitting here, arguing with a goddamn track, man. You're arguing with, with sir Isaac Newton. And I'm sitting back here drinking George T T Stag saying, have at it boys. I gotta come to your house. Juggies drinking the good stuff here. I'm happy. I got George Stag. I got Blance. Come on, come on. Those are three of my favorites. Listen. All right. So I'm, I'm like a 10 handicapper, maybe even worse sometimes, but I think all my life I've been told like, Oh, you don't, don't stab down at the, these chips. You know, you've

got to give yourself more room for error. Open that, open up, use that bounce. Why do you think like so many mid handicaps, like myself struggle with this idea of like, all right, let me just get, you know, like you're talking about, get the right, you know, angle of attack. Let me, you know, not, I don't have to take a big swing at this. You know, I can stick the club in the ground if I need to, like, it's, it seems like it's so against all these principles that we've been taught about golf,

but when everything you say makes sense when I listen to you on this stuff. Well, that's a great question. And here's what I would say to you, Kevin. People can say whatever they want, whatever they please. And that's okay. In today's world, people say whatever the hell they want. We know that.

Go to my Instagram, go to my Patreon, and you'll see countless countless countless countless countless videos of high handicappers mid handicappers Pj tour players and guys you'll see countless videos where i've got the camera running And you'll hear me say we're not going to stop the camera good or bad camera's going to run hit it And you'll see me measuring it 10 down 12 down 11 down 9 down you see it so it's not like i captured one random swing on one random day when the stars lined up i do this every damn day and you see it look at my stuff this is not random the problem this. The problem is not the steepness of the angle of attack. The problem is dropping your golf swing too close to the ground. I have seen world class players at 12 14 15 down, never

take a divot ball sitting on the ground, right? They're coming in steeply. Balls gone. Golf club gets right back away from the ground quickly. Balls gone. You wouldn't have even known he was hitting a shot there. 15 down. And I've said this before, the steepest angle of attack that I have ever measured on my radar, and I've measured a boatload of them. Victor Hovind, 17 down. He didn't take a divot, people. So if the steepest angle of attack didn't take a divot, hit a perfect shot from the number three ranked golfer in the world, What the hell does that tell you? I've never measured anybody too steep, never. That's the steepest,

so that means by definition everybody is less steep than that and that was a perfect shot from the number three ranked golfer in the world. But I'll tell you what I do get. I get shitty golfers all the time coming to me that are hitting this far behind the ball with swing me that are hitting this far behind the ball

with swing planes that are way too flat, way too shallow, with angles of attack at two and three degrees down. I have yet to have a struggling chipper, man or woman, boy or girl, pro or amateur, come to me with steep swing planes, steep angles of attack, high spin loft. I've never seen it because if you have those things, then by definition you have the correct geometry. You're not a bad jumper. You're not. And this is the last thing I'll say. And this is going to piss some people off, which I don't care. I've been asked countless times, Joe, where does this shallow come from? Where does it come from? It comes from two places. First off,

I'll tell you where it doesn't come from. I'm in full preaching mode right now. Can you tell I'm like Jimmy Swagger? It doesn't come from math and it doesn't come from measuring it. It doesn't come from science and it doesn't come from measuring it. It doesn't come from science and it doesn't come from spin lofts because if they would have measured, if they would have used math, if they understood spin loft, they'd have never made these ridiculous claims to start with. Agree? Thank you.

The two places that it came from, number one was the visual observation. If he doesn't take a divot. He must be shallow The second place that it comes from and came from and still comes from is when great players tell you what they think they're doing Oh god, I'm so shallow and nippy. I'm so shallow nippy. You're not showing if you're ten down You're not shallow nippy. You're ten down What you are is you are keeping your golf swing the appropriate distance above the earth, is what you're doing. So when a, you know, I'm smart enough to know that if a world-class player says I'm shallow

and I come along and I say you're not, who's the public going to believe? And I'm not going to fight that fight. I'll be damned if I going to believe? And I'm not going to fight that fight. I'll be damned if I get into that fight. I'm not going to do that. I'd be stupid to fight that fight. But this is what I tell people all the time. You know, my critics will say, haha, look at so and so hitting this nice shallow edge. And I'll say, did you measure it? Did you measure it? No, no, did you measure it? Did you measure it? No, no, did you measure it? What do you think the answer is?

No. I don't give a shit what you think, what you feel, what you believe. I don't care. I care what you measure. Stay locked in on every swing, every hole, and every highlight with Fandool and the PGA Tour. Because right now, new customers can bet $5 and get $200 in bonus bets if you win. That's $200. If you win, you can bet on outright winners,

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and kind of get my feel for the lay of the land, see how the guys are hitting on the range. And I'm going to pick a winner this week. I got to get a good feeling about this one. Fandle, official betting operator of the PGA tour. Must be 21 older in president select states or 18 older in president DC. First online real money wager only $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-mitrable bonus. Betrayals expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fandle.andal.com, gambling problem called 1-800-GAMBLER, visit rg-help.com.

Back to the pod. Tying this in with when you first started working with Victor Hovland, after he goes on TV, he says, my chipping sucks. You guys start to work together, I believe sometime after that. Yet I also, I wanna get to that, but I know that your relationship with Victor

started before that. I want you to tell that that story I know it was in Kevin's piece that he wrote about Victor as well earlier this year but the whole timeline kind of kind of bridges all this together. I met Victor originally when I went to Oklahoma State I don't know what year it was guys it could have been 17 or 18 don't quote me on that one But I went to Oklahoma state to do some work with the coaching staff there, met Victor, met those guys and, uh, he and I took a liking to one another in 2019, late 19, I think it was August or September. He calls me up and says, Hey, I'd like you to take a look at my swings.

I did an analysis for him, but I still have to this day, almost five years later, I still have it. It's about a 30, 35 minute analysis. And I can't remember the number of times. I think it was four, four times in the analysis. I said, stay away from golf instruction. And that includes me. Stay away.

I said, I caution you to leave this alone. Leave this alone. How many instructors in the world would have said, leave it alone, stay away from teachers, including me? That many. It's not a great business. I can help you. You remember the process, right? Come on down. I wasn't going to do it to him. Well, he comes out to Las Vegas. Anyway, we go to TPC summer and we hit balls and he's just putting on a fucking exhibition of four irons and drivers and three woods. And when it was over, I said, now what the hell am I supposed to do with that? You're one of the best ball hitters walking the face of this earth.

We go back to my house that night and I've got a little bit of Tito's tequila in me. Next thing you know, we get started. I said, Victor, I'm just going to tell you the truth. And if you ask Victor this question, he'll tell you the straight of it. I said, Victor, I said, I like you a lot. I said, but I don't want a damn thing from you. That means I'm not going to be your instructor. I'm not going to walk out there with you on the tour to get my picture taken.

I'm not going to stand behind you with my arms crossed like I know what I'm doing. I said, if you want to talk about poker, if you want to drink some bourbon, I'm your guy, but we ain't going to do golf instruction. We're not going gonna do that. And I said that knowing full well that this is a potential major champion sitting on my couch. I know this. I know full well this kid's gonna win a boatload of tournaments, and I'm telling him no.

Because it was the right thing to do. Period. And I am confident there was not another instructor in the world that would have told that kid no. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But again, that's another hill I'm willing to die on. But that's another conversation. So he goes on his way. That's fine. And he decides to experiment his golf swing, which that's his that's his choice. And Victor's a smart kid. He knows what he's doing. Can I pause on one thing before you get off 2019? You can.

You're so, one thing you, he puts on this show, you tell him you're not gonna be his golf coach. That's not the only thing you did in 2019. He's this good at hitting the ball. You go to Dallas with him, I believe, is an important step. That is correct. I've told it so many times, I keep forgetting it.

Yes, I'm glad that I did that because that came back to be a godsend. Yeah. Uh, my friend, John Sinclair, uh, out of Dallas, Texas, who John is a handful. He's one of a handful of golf pros that I trust implicitly. John has no agenda. He's not trying to protect his ass. He's not trying to protect a brand.

He's trying to protect his ass. He's not trying to protect a brand. He's trying to give you answers. And John's expertise is AMM Alpha Mary Mary AMM 3D technology. And what he does is he puts a he touches your body and he digitizes your body. And you're an avatar on

a screen. And then you hit shots. And as far as I know, it's still the best that we have when it comes to 3D measurement of the golf swing and as I said I trust John implicitly I took Victor down there and we got measured I believe in November of 19 I knew it was 19 I think it was November and that data came back to be a gold mine. So you are correct in that. So the reason it came back as a gold mine, Joe, as I know, if you could sort of share it, like Victor came back around to you and asked you for

your insights and there was this time you decided to work with him. Why was that? Uh, he needed help. He needed help period. He called me in December of 22 and it was all over the place. He said, Joe, I need you to take a look. And I did. When he sent the swings, I hit redial in about seven seconds. And I said, what the fuck is this? What are you doing? What have you done? And he goes on to tell me what he's doing. I said, okay, that's got to stop five minutes ago. It's got to stop. And I told him what I want him to do.

And he turned it around and he did great. He comes out to see me in Las Vegas in January. And we decided to work together. And we did not do full swing. Excuse me. We didn't do short game until Genesis Riviera week. And we started on Tuesday because on Monday he had to do a photo shoot down in Newport Beach. So we started a short game on Tuesday he had to do a photo shoot down in Newport Beach So we started a short game on Tuesday. So the first guys the first month and a half I don't even know when is Riviera if you look up when Genesis was in 2022. Is it February? I don't know I think it is. Yeah. So yeah, so you could say the first Month and a half we didn't even do short game

And one of my clients also my good friend Ben Crane, I talked to Ben Crane the weekend of Phoenix, the Phoenix Open. And I said, Ben, we're gonna start short games. So Ben and I called Victor Sunday night, we had a little three way intervention. And I said, Victor, I said, it's time to do short game. I said, right now you're hitting the ball elite. And I said, we will fix chipping. It's not going to take long.

I said, but I'm going to ask you to do some things that are going to sound very backwards to you. And that data that we got in 2019, thank goodness, John kept the wedges. We got 15 yard and 30 yard wedges. And I wish John was on this little podcast with us because I called up John. I said, John, give me the numbers, baby. Let's hear it. They were awful. In 2019, they were.

Yes. The chipping was bad. The chipping was bad. Okay. Angle of attack of three degrees down. Dynamic loft of say, 42, the chipping was bad. Yes was bad. Okay angle of attack of three degrees down Dynamic loft of say 42 43 so a spin loft was 10 degrees less than it should have been So not only not only is he too shallow hitting the ground too soon, right? And every time he hit the ground too soon. What do you think he was told?

Good shell you're too. What if you're too what? You're too steep. So and then I saw the down the line views guys. His shaft was this shallow on chip shots. He showed me the videos and I went holy Jesus. No wonder you can't ship it. And this is the honest truth. We started that day. His caddy Shay, who I think Shay is the best caddy on the PJ tour. If he's not the best caddy, then I don't know who the hell is. But Shay is incredible. Victor, his caddy, Shay, and his agent were standing there.

And I said, this is not going to take long. And I said, I do not accept this belief that you can't chill. I said it's nonsensical. It's silly to me. I said, you can hit a four iron 240 yards at a flag. Don't tell me that you can't you can't chip a golf ball 10 yards. I don't buy it. I don't accept it. And the first picture I showed him was this and you know, Victor's got that wrist angle right in his full swing, right? You know what I'm talking about and the blade is pointed down at the ground halfway back on his

chip shots right well that's sacrilegious right there I mean that's that's that's the antichrist you can't chip like that God knows you got to twist that wrist open you got to open that face and expose the bounce right guys bullshit I showed him three photographs, Jordan Spieth, Dustin Johnson, Brooks Koepka. All three happened to have what wrist angle guys? You got it. All three of them have that blade location halfway back. You got it. Jordan hit a low spinner. Brooks had a medium shot, Dustin hit a high pitch. Same wrist angle, same club face. And he looked at me and said, wow.

And I said, right. So we're never having that conversation again. Ever. So we got past that bullshit. Then I asked him, I said, I want you to move slightly forward in your back swing. Why? That's going to move the low point more forward, allow you to start hitting the ball instead of the ground. And guys, if I had a Bible, I'd put my hand on it right now. In an hour, he had it. Xander Shawfully, if you ever talked to

Xander, ask him. He probably doesn't remember because it ain't that important to his life. He's in the bunker and he's watching this and he's like wow that's fucking good that's good I went I know trust me I know it's good and I I will tell you this right now I still have the videos of him at the PGA at Oak Hill he was the best chipper in the world right there that week I've got videos from every conceivable lie into the grain with the grain elevated green guys he put on an exhibition. It was that good. So you've described those kind of next few months as like a rocket ship like you were

you were driving onto a rocket ship. What was the that like that year when it just felt like he was on the verge of it all the way up through the Ryder Cup of he is, I think, you know, we talked about it. He's was the best player in the world for a stretch. He was, he was the best part of the world for about six months. And I want to make this perfectly clear because I know we've got a lot of people listening to this. I owe Victor Hovind a debt of gratitude.

Victor Hovind did more for me than I ever did for him, because Victor had it. He just didn't know where it was, but he had it. But without Victor, I didn't have it. I could not have invented the things that he has given to me, but eventually he could have found what he had in him. Do you see what I'm saying guys? I needed him to go where I went. He had it inside him. My job was just to pull it out of him. So I owe Victor Hovind a debt of gratitude that I'll never be able to pay. He took me places that I could have never taken myself. And I refuse to sit back and say, yeah, it was all me. Yeah, it was my genius teaching.

No, guys, I was dealing with a generational athlete. And we all know that. There's a reason that Andy Reid keeps winning games, and it's a guy called Pat Mahomes. Let's just get that shit out there right now. Go coach the Jacksonville Jaguars and win free Super Bowls. Hey, come on. You got a Jacksonville guy right here.

First person on there. Gee.. So, I met Trevor Lawrence. Man, he was so kind to me. He's a good kid, but come on. There's, there's a, you know, people talk about Phil Jackson being the greatest coach in basketball history. I'm like, well, he started with Jordan and Pippen for about seven years. Then he went to Shaq and Kobe go coach the Cleveland Cavaliers and try that Zen stuff and tell me how it works out.

So the bottom line is it's the player, it's the athlete, it always has been and it always will be. And for you college basketball fans, especially the Kentucky Wildcats, the legendary coach Adolph Rupp said you don't win the Kentucky Derby riding a mule. Never forget that. So Victor Hovind took me places that I could never have taken myself. And Kevin, to answer your question, the PGA was so close. When he hit into the mouth of that bunker, my heart just got it dropped.

But I knew we had something special. The first round of the match, If you remember, he plays with Tiger Woods. He should 65 playing with Tiger with a new golf swing, a new chipping motion, if you will. And at that time, it still may be it was the lowest round. Anybody's ever shot with Tiger or the lowest front, whatever, you know, 65 is pretty cool playing with Tiger. And I remember his mom, Galina saying, I want to go watch my son.

I said, Galina, you better get out there right now, because when he hits that first tee shot, you're not going to see him again for about six hours because the galleries are 40 deep. You better, you better get out there. Now. I knew we had something special early on and the players championship. My God, he would, I could see stretches of brilliance and then we'd regress and stretches of brilliance and then we'd regress.

And stretches of brilliance and we would regress. We were just so close, gosh almighty. And then Memorial, he did it. And I'm in a sports bar in Nashville watching it. And when he birdied 17, that plays went eight shit. And then in that playoff when Danny missed that drive, I said, uh-oh, look out. And guys, if you think about it in the playoffs,

you know, he wins two of three. If he simply plays the 18th hole in Memphis at even par, he wins all three of them. The 18th hole cost him five shots, three water balls. If he just plays par, he wins the three of them. The 18th hole cost him five shots, three waterballs. If he just plays par, he wins the trifecta. Then we all know one of the greatest final rounds of golf that I've ever seen was the final round at the BMW Olympia field. 61 at that place is unbelievable. Guys, I'm telling you right now, when he warmed up the final two days at Atlanta Tour Championship. It was something special.

It was unbelievable. And my job was to shut the blank up, just shut the fuck up and just stand there and do nothing and just let him over. And if you guys remember when he had that long putt for par and he made it, and I was at that, and then he birdies 16, 17, 18. And then the last thing I'll say is I'm getting a little bit sentimental here. I don't want to make it more than it is. But at the Ryder Cup, when he teed off on that first hole, the you

know, you had 10,000 people in that arena screaming his name Victor Hovland, boom, boom, boom, boom. I mean, what an environment. I go, what an environment. I go into the clubhouse, I'm sitting down below with the doctors, the trainers, and I'm like this right here when he pulls out that wedge on the first hole, the first green. And I'm being serious,

I'm not trying to make anybody laugh. Right or wrong, I believe that my career was on the line. The world was watching, the golfing world was watching that shot. And I think Max Homa later said, you know, we're going to find out if this Joe Mayo stuff works or not. That's right. And I'm sitting here and I'm biting my hands like this and I'm like, dear God, because I know that if he flubs that shot, I have to move to like Cambodia.

I can never get on Twitter again. Ever. And I, and I'm not sure that any instructor in the last 30 years has ever been on that spot. I mean, I'm, I'm the college football coach. I'm on the hot seat. My, my quarterback has just thrown four interceptions and I can see my career going down the tubes. I'm that guy. And when he pulls out that sandwich and I'm just like, dear God, and guys, when he made it, the eruption inside that clubhouse at Marco Simone, I'll never forget as long as I live.

I'm getting chill bumps thinking about it right now. It's one of the greatest shots that I've ever seen considering the moment, the shot itself, off of a putting green. And this is a kid that told you two years ago that he sucked at chipping. What a story. Joe, it's interesting, you know,

I've interviewed a lot of people over the years. And when we talked in a while back, I thought you said one of the most insightful, I think, kind of looking inward things I've ever had. You said to me, I can be a lot. And you mentioned that's that earlier in this podcast, you said I might be like a Bobby Knight type figure to some people. Like I, I am hard on people. I am intense. I am a lot. And maybe that was part of the reason that Victor and I,

although we had an amazing run, maybe we needed to sort of go our separate ways for a little bit. I wonder if you could just kind of reflect a little bit on that, you know, that where did you, how did you reach that point in the process after you and Victor decided, I think, you know, maybe we should not work together for a while. And you had to look inward and say like, you know, all right, was I part of the reason why this didn't continue going forward? That is a great question and without question my emotions and my personality was a huge part of that and when we got back together we had dinner in Las Vegas about a two-hour dinner and I said my piece he said his I said I was sorry he said he was sorry

for the things that we did and the way that we handled it and just like I told you in that first interview I am man enough to stand up and face the fire and tell you right now, my personality has caused me some problems. My personality has caused me to lose clients, friends. I have caused gaps, separations. I don't want to say burn bridges, but I guess you could say that. And I am willing to admit that I am simply too much for some people sometimes. And I will never, I will never run and hide from that. And I will never pass the buck and say, Oh, no, it was him. No, it was me. It was me. I admit that. And I agreed to tone it down. And if you go back and look at my Instagram, you'll see there was not one single post of him made after we got back together, not one post, not one.

And I did that out of respect for him. But yes, my personality has caused me problems in personal and business relationships because I'm very hard at times, too hard at times. So would I change it? Maybe yes, maybe no, but here's what I told some people. And I remember there was an instructor out of South Carolina. His name is Andrew Rice. Andrew's a good friend of mine and he used to have this series of things called coaches count. I did the first three coaches camp where we took several instructors. I mean, we went to Dublin, Ireland, we went to Brussels, we went to

London and I remember very clearly in Europe with coaches camp and we had this little Q and a where all the instructors, excuse me, we're on a panel and one guy raised his hand. I said, yes, he said, the things that you've said in the past on the Internet, the comments you've made, would you change things? I said, that is a great question. I said, yes, he said, the things that you've said in the past on the internet, the comments you've made, would you change things? And I said, that is a great question. I said, without a doubt, if I could go back in time, there are certain things that I said that I would have said differently. And there are certain things I wouldn't have said at all. And none of us in here

are exempt from sticking our foot in our mouth at times. For sure. But on the flip side of that coin, if I didn't say the things that I said, if I didn't challenge the status quo, the way that I do, you people wouldn't know my name and you might not have broken through with them in the first place. Right. And it's period. And there's no doubt if my personality were different. My good friend Mark Blackburn.

I love Mark. What a personality. If I had his sexy British accent, and his personality, I'd have 50 clients on the tour right now. I tell Mark, if you could teach a lick, Mark, you'd be worth 100 million. You look good. You got a great personality. He's got that damned accent. You can't teach him work on it. you come to my place. We can work on accents. I can help you with that.

I need that. I need that accent. Mark, if you could teach it all, my God, you'd be insanely rich. I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding. I don't mean to put words in your mouth with some of this, but just reading about Victor and kind of hearing some of Kevin's reporting

and kind of the journey he's been on, I get a sense that like, some of this as well on this side is his curiosity to the same point. You just said, if you didn't say the things you said, maybe, maybe you wouldn't have broken through and all of this. His curiosity also may have never led to you. And his curiosity also seems to be kind of never ending to the point where, you know, maybe it was inevitable that you guys are going to work together, then not work together, then work together, then not work together, and I don't know what you foresee in the future, but I'm just wondering kind of second time through

working with Victor specifically and now I believe based on reports separating since then again, was it any different the second time through of in terms of getting back in that process and then getting back out of it? I'm curious. No, I don't think there was a big difference. His golf swing is a little bit different right now. And you said it yourself, Victor is a tinker. He's very curious and he wants certain things to be his way. And when he called me November and I was at ping with one of my other players, Sam Stevens, and he said, Joe, I've decided I'm gonna go in a different direction. I said, Victor, I think you Stevens. And he said, Joe, I've decided I'm gonna go in a different direction.

And I said, Victor, I think you should. And I says, I'm okay with this. And there's certain things that I want to get clear right now. When Victor and I broke up the first time, the media was circling like sharks. They were waiting to hear, they thought it was an episode of the Kardashians.

We wanna hear all the dirt. I'm like, people, there was no dirt. He and our friends, there was never bad blood. There was never fighting and yelling and cursing. He said, Joe, I'm going to try a different idea. I said, that's great. I think you should, because this is his career, not mine. This is his career. And the second time he said, Joe, I'm going to go a different direction. I says says I sign off on it. I'm okay with that. So there was never any fighting There was never any bickering. There was never any bad blood like the old saying goes there's nothing to see here But I want to also get something

Out there perfectly clear Victor Hovind does not need me There's not one thing that I can tell Victor that I haven't already told him. There's not one thing that I can tell him that he doesn't know. And I am not the instructor that's going to stand there and follow a player's coattails around the tour trying to get my picture taken for the Golf Channel. It's not going to happen. It will never happen. I will never do that. I will not ride coattails. Not that I was doing it, but I never will. And if the time comes that the job is done, the job is done. But when he chose to go another direction, number one, you've got my blessing. Number two,

there is no fighting. There's no bickering. And number three, he doesn't need me. He's fine. And there you go. What we're gonna, I promise. I feel like I could stay with you for hours. I got a couple of things here to wrap up with you. I love it.

I have heard you describe technique wise about how a chip shot, a pitch shot is a different technique than a full shot. I don't want to put words in your mouth on explaining that because I'll explain it worse than you do. But I'm curious where the dividing line is on that. If there's a yardage or distance or feel where, you know, is it, should I be approaching a 50 yard shot with a different technique than I am a 30 yard shot or what you're talking about with steepness and technique, kind of where that where that changes on the spectrum if that makes sense. That is a I mean you're a you're a better question asker than than most that is another

great question and there is no set yardage but I have asked this question to tour players and I get this answer 50 to 60 yards is when I start hearing a difference in what they say and I start seeing a difference and here is the best way to describe it guys. All right and I'm going to try to keep this as untechnical as possible. This is a golf club the black the black part here that's the club head. So you guys have heard me talk about the benefits of having a steep club head in chipping and pitching. It keeps the club steep, it keeps it away from the ground, it helps us hit the ball very cleanly,

and also guys, if the clubhead is coming in very steeply, we don't have the out part that I talked about an hour ago because I don't want the out. The out serves no purpose. I want the down. I want the ferris wheel effect. The down gives us the bottom part of spin loft. Now that being said, when we start when we need ball speed when we've got to get the ball out there, the sequencing of our body begins to change. Notice the cap it starts to do what starts Starts to flatten, doesn't it? And it flattens because our pelvis goes first, then our chest goes, like a driver.

You know, I'm gonna crank this thing up, this thing is gonna flatten back there behind me and I'm just gonna bust it out there. So when the desire and the need for ball speed comes into play, the golfer's sequencing will change. We all do it. When the sequencing starts to change, that club starts to flatten.

That VSP starts to flatten. Not because we tried to flatten it, but because that's just a byproduct of the sequencing changing. And another way of saying it is this, I'm just gonna hop up here. Another way of saying it is this, I'm just going to hop up here. Another way of saying it is this, if I'm hitting a little chip shot, notice the club head, my chest and my pelvis turn together at the same rate.

We call it coasting. But with a driver, my pelvis is going to the target, the clubhead is still back there. So there is a dramatic difference in sequencing. And I cannot tell you how vehemently I disagree with the statement that a chip shot is a mini golf swing. No, it's not. The only thing they have in common is you're holding a golf club, hitting the ball. Other than that, it's not the same.

Tom Pernice, one of the greatest wedge players I've ever seen, if you call a chip shot a mini golf swing, he might throw a club at you. Because he'll tell you there is nothing about him that's the same except you're hitting a ball. So now you're understanding that the sequencing starts to change when we have to start producing ball speed and that difference in sequencing causes that swing plane to flatten and then everything changes. That's a great answer. I feel like you've given us about

$10,000 worth in gym flick lessons here. I guess I'm curious philosophically what do you love about teaching? It's something I guess I'm curious philosophically, what do you love about teaching? It's something I think I'm good at. I think the 3D stuff comes to me very naturally, very intuitively. Like I said, spatial reasoning, being able to see objects in three-dimensional time and space, I think that's a talent of mine, something that the good Lord gave me. I think I express my ideas well. I talk too much at times. I'm too direct for some people. So, you know,

I want to, I'll give the goods and the bads. It's great for I think we could probably seriously. This is an all-timer. Absolutely. I hope you guys do not edit out what I said. Just put it in there. One single edit in this one. I don't think boom We're either gonna win it all or we're gonna lose it all but we're gonna do it one way or another We're going all in all of our chips are in a center of the pot

But I enjoy helping people I do and I'll tell you something right now and this is not going to sound the way I want it to One reason that I'm so passionate about instruction is because I struggled so badly because of bad instruction. I was a pretty good athlete. I wasn't great. That's pretty good. I could jump extremely well, but I was a pretty good athlete and I struggled terribly because I did what I was told to do because instruction was extremely poor. I don't want other people to have to struggle

the way that I did. And with the price point that I charge, people demand, and you know, people know who I am before they come to me. They hear me talk, they hear me lecture, they hear all the stuff. And with the price point that I charge, when people come to me,

they expect competent, high level information right now, today, period. And I hold myself to a very high standard to deliver that. And I've had students tell me this before. If they go take a $40 golf lesson from Joe Blow PGA, it might be a terrible lesson. And they really don't give a shit. Hey, I spent 40 bucks. I spent 50 bucks, 60 bucks. It got me out of the house for an hour. There's no big deal. If somebody comes to me and I don't bring it, they'll burn my house down. They'll just burn

my house down. You get death threats, but no, not really. But you see what I'm getting at? There is a level of expectation that is put upon me because of my persona, because of my critical persona. In other words, I bring it on myself. So every lesson that I give, I bring it. You don't see me sitting in the golf cart, you know, thumbing through the scores on NFL.com. You don't, you don't see that shit. cart, you know, thumbing through the scores on NFL.com. You don't, you don't see that shit. I'm out there walking around, talking, yapping, measuring, moving, preaching, whatever you want to call it. Because I hold myself to that standard number one and number two,

they expect it because I have brought that upon myself and it's a, it's a responsibility that I have accepted. And that's how I feel about it. So to get us out of here on a summarizing note, if I'm gonna go in my backyard and put some of this into practice, I'm gonna try to get steep on it. I'm gonna move my head forward in the backswing.

It's gonna help me get a little steeper on it. We're gonna make sure, I'm gonna try to get that club head, make sure that club head doesn't get behind me, the kind of jawline thought with that and standing up through impact, towards impact, locking that right knee. What I would do is I'd hit little chip shots. I'd make sure the club head only goes back about waist high.

Club head about waist high. And I would feel that the club head stays almost on top of the ball target line. It never gets back here. And if you'll notice, if I have a little, if I address the ball, right? So my sternum, I'm addressing the ball centered now. Watch this.

If I move my spine, a tick forward, just a tick, right? In the backswing, I move just a little forward. You see that? Okay. I have set the stage for the low point to be forward, just a tick, right? In the backswing, I moved just a little forward. You see that? Okay. I have set the stage for the low point to be forward, which that steepens angle of attack by itself coming down. I'm staying forward. I'm staying forward and I'm staying up right there away from the ground.

And off I go. And from down the line, my right hand is the club head. I want to feel the club head staying out there, never in here because that starts flattening the swing plane. And when the swing plane flattens, what do we start doing? We start hitting the ground too soon. We start hitting the ground too soon. And then we're told that we're too steep. So we try to show even more and now we're screwed and now it's game over.

And then we start playing pickleball because it comes impossible. I've watched the Instagram one of Brad Faxon that you did with the simple chipsies. I've watched that so many times trying to channel that energy of it. But you can do that. You can do that.

I'll make you a promise. If you were here with me in Nashville in 20 minutes, you would have it and it's so deceptively simple. You would say, wow, I didn't know that it was that simple. And never, never mind this, but I mean, just concentrate on this one thing. When I talk about steep, people think I mean, take the club handle and pull it down. No, what I mean is this, if this is the ball, right, and I'm hitting a shot this way Notice something angle of attack is into the ground into the ground closer to the ball. I'm getting closer. I'm getting closer I'm getting closer. I'm getting closer and there's the ball now watch this if I keep moving the angle attack more forward, right?

Notice the trajectory of my finger didn't change did it? But if I go from hitting the ground here To here But if I go from hitting the ground here to here, this is very steep. Notice when I hit the ball, the club head is very steep. Ball flies low points over here in front of the ball versus low point behind the ball. So if you move the low point more forward, by definition, that steepens angle of attack. It doesn't mean steep into the earth. Never forget that.

God, it's always going to win the gasp really. Like that girl almost won Valhalla. Oh, I've got to read them. How good was that? When he came to me in Las Vegas, that that was the night we had, uh, he flew to me that Sunday night from, uh, I believe it was Wells Fargo. We had dinner and the next day we went this is I swear to you this is honest truth but we started hitting balls at 10 o'clock I said let me see it and it was just it was just awful. Within an hour I gave him a couple of fields that that I know works with him and he put on an exhibition. We go have lunch, we come back out at about one o'clock, we're hitting balls.

Tommy Armour III, you can ask him, he comes down the hill, we're at the summit out in Vegas. Tommy Armour III comes down the hill in a golf cart, eating peanuts, sits there for about a half an hour, he looks at me and he says, that's pretty fucking good, isn't it? I said, yes, sir, it is. And I mean, he put on an exhibition. We went out and played golf the next day. He didn't miss a shot. I take him to the airport Tuesday night. He takes a private plane to Valhalla

and I called his caddy. I called Shay. I said, Shay, I said, you know that I don't just make random statements. I don't just pull shit out of the air. I said, if he wins, don't say, I told you so. And I swear that's the truth. I thought he had it when he made the turn on Sunday. I said, boys, he's back. And obviously Xander, what a great player Xander is, what a great player he is. But I thought we had it. I did.

Well, Joe, I truly, I mean, this mean this when I say I say this to a lot of guests, but I truly mean it with you. I think I would give you another three hours and be wildly entertained. Let's please please please do this again. One because I don't know if I can afford your rate and I just snuck some of my own personal personal lesson stuff right into this. It's a great secret to podcasting. It works great. But I understand incredible, incredible content of a now a religious fall. I've

been a follower of yours from afar, but now now religious follower of yours. And I think a lot of our listeners will be likewise. So thanks for your time and hope to do it again sometime. It'll be my pleasure and make sure when we talk about the track man being a paperweight and they couldn't turn it on you make down certain that gets in there because that was the key to the whole thing right there. They couldn't turn the fucking thing on and used to ridicule me left and right now they've got them on the range, they're

lined up on the range now. Isn't that funny guys? Oh thank you so much. You guys call me anytime. Cheers. For Fandl must be 21 older and president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and president DC gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat and connect get or visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 803275050 for 24 seven support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE and why or text hope and why in New York.