No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 952: USGA CEO Mike Whan on US Open's LIV exemption, recent rollback comments, pace of play, and future USGA venues

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

USGA CEO Mike Whan makes his return to the pod on the heels of today's announcement about a LIV exemption into the field for the 2025 US Open. We start our discussion on recent comments from various stakeholders in pro golf around the golf ball rollback before getting into pace of play issues, the LIV - US Open announcement and the USGA's rationale for creating the exemption. We close with some thoughts on current and upcoming venues for USGA championships - including Cypress Point for this year's edition of the Walker Cup. Support our sponsors: Rhoback fanduel.com/nlu The Stack Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining The Nest: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at nolayingup.com/join Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Solly here. Got an interview coming shortly with my guy DJ as well as Mike Wan, the CEO of the USGA. Talking a little bit of distance update stuff. Obviously some news came out today regarding an exemption from the live tour into the US Open.

We talked to him about the rationale behind that. A whole bunch of other stuff. My guy can definitely fill up the airwaves, but he was very, very gracious with his time. We appreciate that. We also appreciate our friends at Roeback. You know Roeback. Best fit, best feel. It's a new year, but we still love Roeback and the Roeback hoodie. Still the single best piece of clothing we own. This is my second one of the day. First one got spit up on, but the spit up comes right out of it. Let me say that.

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That's R-H-O-B-A-C-K.com. 20% off jackets, Q-zips, hoodies, and more with code NLU. Donnie, for the delay, here is Mike Wan. All right, Mike, you are, I believe, rounding your fourth year at the USGA now. I'm curious, what was your biggest misconception? What turned out to be your biggest misconception about the USGA now that you're this far in?

That they weren't really interested in innovating. I thought it was, in my perception of the USGA was they were so proud in 1972 that they were going to tell me how they did it in 1972. I kind of felt like it was a group that kept its foot on first base a lot and talked about stealing but didn't really. And quite frankly, I found just the opposite, the openness to kind of new ideas. I'm really excited about what we've been able to implement in just a few short years. And quite frankly, I think because of implementing some of these new programs and ideas and difference making for the game long term, it's caused its big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game.

I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game.

I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game.

I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of the game. I'm not a big fan of on where to start. There's a lot of other stuff going on and I was hesitant to start with the age old distance debate, but I think we can pick up the discussion with where things stand currently. I don't think we necessarily need to argue the merits of distance and why things are being changed just to kind of pick up with you curious with some reactions. We've had the PGA tour, J. Monahan has come out and say that they don't, they don't either don't support it, don't plan to support the proposed changes made.

We have PGA of America statements that were made relatively recently, which we can dive into a little bit, but what happens if the PGA tour and PGA of America don't support the rules proposals that you guys have put forth? Is there a world where the three of the majors, US Open, Open Championship and Masters play under a different set of rules than the rest of men's professional golf? I'm wondering if you could shine some light there. Yeah, and it's disappointing.

This won't shock you guys, but I'll give you a quick story. Before I took this job, it was March of 2021. You know, a lot of my friends are going, why would you go to the USJ now? You got to deal with this distance stuff. And quite frankly, if I'm being totally honest with you, that's one of the reasons that excited me because I thought this was a big change. It was going to have to be carefully managed. And maybe you'd say I failed on that. But I asked Fred Ridley, Jay Monahan and Seth Waugh to meet me. It was kind of COVID-y times. We met in a house in Lake Nona,

actually, kind of centrally located for all of us. And we met for a day and we talked about the topic of distance. And I shared with them, you know, I wasn't sure if they'd had enough conversations with the USGA, but I wanted to make sure they understand the situation we were in. We currently at the time, we're certainly not testing golf balls or golf equipment at the level in which the game was being played. We were testing at a speed that was no longer relevant as it relates to the fastest of the game and that we were going to have to make tough changes. We spent literally a half a day together. And I remember Seth said something that I'll never forget, which is, hey, Mike, we know you, you know, we know you're walking into this situation.

If you allow us to be part of this process and have a seat at the table and listen to us, we realize that you're never going to be able to come up with a solution that we're all going to like. I mean, there's going to be people who think you should do more, people think you should do less, but let us at least have a voice, hear us, and when you can, try to incorporate our change. And when it's over, when you have to make a tough decision, and all of us will cringe at some part of your decision, at least we'll stay unified as an industry. And as tough as it is, we'll work together because the game is better. We were coming off, I would say the most unified time

in the game's history, kind of coming out of COVID, and we were all working together at a way we'd never had before. And so he said, I know you're the one at the podium, you're the one that's gonna be taking the arrows, but we'll have to work to kind of get our memberships and our teams to kind of get to those solutions. And hopefully we've had a voice in those solutions. And so, you know, this has been a seven year process. You know, I joined kind of in the middle of that

seven year process. But when we announced our final changes last January, even to your point, even the PGA tour and the PGA of America, not to mention TaylorMade and Callaway and so many others in their press statements that came out after that release. I remember the PGA actually said that, you know, we appreciate the collaborative process. We feel like we've had a voice in the process along the way. And even in some of your final decisions, we see some of our input in terms of don't buy for Kate, take longer to the marketplace, lesser impact. All true, by the way, doesn't mean they liked it, but they did exactly kind of what Seth and we had talked

about from the very beginning, which is there's things our members aren't gonna like about it, but we realize you're trying to leave the game better for the longterm. So it's challenging. I said from the beginning, and one thing that's true about this job is governance is hard.

Everyone's got a really strong point of view. There's so many people that think we haven't done enough for distance. You guys might be high on that list, too. There's another group of people that can't believe we're doing anything on distance. And I've said from the beginning, if doing nothing was a choice I could get behind and could really believe in, and I believed it was at least close to the right decision, nobody would be quicker on that bus than me, because this is tough and it's part of the job I don't like.

But that is so irresponsible. Everybody, you know, it's funny, guys, no matter what meeting I'm in, if I use this phrase, you know, it's a shame we didn't do something 20 years ago, because, you know, 20 years ago, we sort of saw this coming. And everybody, no matter who they are, will go, Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's too bad, though, because now it's, you know, now it's too late. Yeah, because, you know, it's 20 years ago, to shame those guys back then, didn't have the guts to do what it took to really kind of keep this game at a distance that was you know that was reasonable long term and economical and environmental and I always say to people stop let's look at the factors today they're exactly the same as 20 years ago the game is so much longer than it was 20 or 40 years ago true today

if you look at elite amateur golf and anybody who follows lead amateur golf, can't tell me the future is going to be the same. It's coming and it's faster. And we know it's faster. Anybody who says it isn't, isn't paying attention. And as a result, you know, courses around the world, not just here in the States are going to have to keep up not for PGA tour events, or VP World Tour, but college events, elite amateur events, junior amateur events. And that's just a given. Everybody knows that's coming. So to know all that and to not make a change that we know would be better for the game long-term is irresponsible.

And I get it. I spent 12 years working for a large membership and members want to hear about today and vocation and tomorrow and you know, don't tell me about 30 years. Don't spend our money on the future. Spend our money on today and I've lived that life. But when you're in these seats and you're not on very long,

if you don't come into those seats with a mindset about how is this game gonna be better for our kids, kids, you probably shouldn't be in those seats. And so this is tough, I'm not saying it's right. And to be honest with you, the people who say this isn't enough, probably fair. I really believe we'll implement this in 2028. And by 2038 or 2040, we'll be at the same distance we are today.

But I can live with that. Because if we don't implement that, then by 2038 or 2040, we'll be talking about 15 yards farther than today. And those issues just are as obvious and as predictable as anything. So to not do anything about it is just a would be irresponsible in my position. We can do it without we at the USJ and the RNA can do without ball contracts and, you know, annuities to our retirement plans. And we're not we're not conflicted by those agreements.

And I'm not saying that those are right or wrong. It's just we can do it without those. So yeah, frustrating, too bad. But I would say that both of the organizations you talked about in your question said to us, if you're going to make a change in distance, Mike, it's going to have to be across the board and a rule change of golf. We'll play by the rules. But if it's an MLR, if it's a bifurcated ball, you're going to ask us to implement, we're likely not going to implement it. So if you want to make real change, it's

got to be across the board. I think they knew that if I had to make change across the board, it would be slower. It would be less because I would have to make sure that I don't impact the recreational game in any kind of meaningful way. And they're right, it was slower to the marketplace, it was less impactful. But it was, it was incorporating feedback of really important shareholders. So what, you know, I guess, where what went wrong here in terms of the communication process of the the transfer

power over the PGA of America from Seth Waugh over to Derek Sprague, who's the new CEO who said, to my knowledge, we haven't had a lot of dialogue on it. We really want to have a seat at the table because we're a key component in the golf ecosystem. It sounds a little bit like that flies in the face of what you just said. You know, he said the USGA and RNA have said they want to protect the game for the next 20, 30, 50 years. The PGA of America wants to do the same thing, but we're not part of that process. You know, he said, my point is,

I think it's time to just hit the pause button, bring the leaders together with the governing bodies and get us all around the table. What problem are we trying to solve? And let's solve it. I've been in those meetings in the past. I think there's a lot of things they've missed because they don't understand the role of the PGA professional. That seems to be just not not really matching up with the scenario you just laid out for us. Yeah, listen, I'm not exactly sure how Derek was an expert in seven days on a seven year process. But I would say that I

got a lot of respect for Derek. I've known him a long time. And this is true. I'm not saying that as a caveat. I really do like Derek, I've worked with him. We were really part of building the KPMG women's PGA when I was at the LPGA. And he was at the PGA of America, I feel great about some of the things we built together, I would say that Derek and his team reached out and asked for all the distance insight studies, and a summary of all

the research after he made all those comments. So I mean, it's interesting that now, now you want the data as opposed to before those comments, I would just suggest to Derek and the rest of the PGA leadership read your own press statement from January of last year when we announced the final change where you said that you appreciate the collaborative process and the voice you had at the table, and how you could see some of your input in our final decision. So there's members of the PGA of American leadership team that have been on committees that

have been working on this since 2018. So, again, I find it strange sometimes that again, it could change the leadership has changed the leadership and, and you know, they have different presidents every couple years, and now they have a different CEO, I get it. But I can't really. You got to work with who's the leadership at the time. And I certainly did and was. I also understand sometimes when somebody says, I'm not sure we had a large enough voice at the table, that's really probably code for you didn't do exactly what we

told you to do. And there isn't an answer here. That's exactly what you told us to do. I would tell you that if you if I took 10 stakeholders around the table and said, what's the right solution here? I would not get eight of them to raise their hand on any one of those solutions. And they're right because they come from very different lenses. But I have no doubt that every time we've made a significant change in the game, the PGA of America and their professionals have proven through, have proven through history that they, you know, they can take that as an opportunity.

And you know, if the average male golfer is three yards shorter, I have zero doubt that the PGA of America will solve that problem, either with walking up their tee boxes by three yards or helping every player get a little longer with their own athleticism, technology, et cetera. So I don't, I don't want to discount that this stuff is hard. Trust me, when I say nobody understands if this is hard more than me, because virtually every time I talked about this topic, 50% of the people don't like my answer for one reason and 50% don't like it for the other. Some of those people in the 50s have a larger stage and you know, care more

about what they say. Again, I mean, if you're, if you really do honestly care about this game 40 years from now, and you really do look at what's, what's really irrefutable data with regards to what's happening in distance over the last 20 and 40 years. And if you look me in the face and say, Yes, but this is as far as it's going to get distances tapped, that I'm sort of done talking to you like if that's your position, that you know, you think this is over, like, hey, come join me at a Walker Cup or

the US amateur or any significant college event. And I'll show you players playing this game at 192 miles an hour ball speed. And even if they dial it back at the next level, or for the rest of their career, they're going to dial it back to 190. And I'm still testing at 176. So I think I graphed how hard this is. I understand what it's like to report to members, all those things are realistic. But the bottom line is we need to do we need to make a decision here that leaves the game healthier long term, not not knowing all these factors, essentially saying God, as hard

as that's going to be, let's just not do anything. And we'll just kick the can down to the next generation. If that's our answer, then then we should let somebody else take a shot at our seats. Because that's I knew when I walked into this, this was going to be hard. And it's certainly lived, lived up to that. But I think we can make a change that leaves the game healthier, has minimal impact on the recreational game, and stills allow players all around the world to chase distance. And quite frankly, we're not going back to 1995. You know, we'll go back to 2018 and in the next seven years, we'll be right back to where we are now, but we won't be another 15 to 20 yards longer than we are today, which is incredibly predictable if we do nothing.

I'm curious, Mike, I'm asking you to project a little bit here, but I brought up the bigger bases and the pitch clock on accident earlier, but it does remind me that, you know, baseball is a long standing, we're not going to make any changes type of game, made some changes, seems like improvements have been incredibly well received. Tennis changes all the time, swimming changes all the time. I'm curious if you could either spell out for us, spell out for the audience, or just kind of try to get in the head of, I guess, the PJ Tour mainly. I mean, what do you think is the main resistance to this type of stuff? Where does some of the dragging the feet come from, especially when it just seems like there's examples

of other sports doing this constantly and kind of changing their product for the better? By this, are you talking about the ball or other changes? I think, well, I guess starting with the ball, but then it does kind of seem a little emblematic of some other stuff as well, if we were squinting. Well I think a couple things. I mean one is remember you're talking to a 25 year old best player in the world in the prime of their career. It's saying, hey, I need your help.

You know, you're going to be nine yards shorter in 2028. So I need you to dial in that new ball and figure out your new distances and all for the benefit of the game over the next 30 or 50 years. Hey, when I was 25 and if I'd have been playing at the PGA Tour level, I would have said, hey, that's great. But that's not my, not now. You know, they didn't do that 20 years ago or 30 years ago. Don't ask me to do it.

I totally get that. Separately, there's more than a few, you know, and from the manufacturing side that will make them fear their current ball contract and we're not this is going to actually mean a financial impact to their pocket place. Obviously, you know, we, we fundamentally believe that manufacturers will still chase core endorsement and especially now that we're talking about the same ball for both. And so, you know, this is, this is change. It's uncomfortable. It's, it's, it's not completely known. Now, I think it's, it's much easier to argue this on the on the fear of what's coming. And we're actually

starting to see golf ball prototypes come in to the USGA and the RNA. So we know we're talking about golf balls that are that are pretty, pretty similar, if not almost, almost identical to current balls. And so when you know, the perception of, oh, we're going back to some professional or wound or, you know, just, those are just fear tactics. And the reality of it is it, but it's, but it's changed. And I'm not arguing that it's, that it's not going to, that it's going to be easy or that it's not going to cause, but I also would say, you know, we've done this before, you know, if we'd, we'd be seeing armlock wedges right now, for sure, if we hadn't kind of stepped in and made a change there, the game would look different from 90 yards and in.

So I think the reality of it is I understand that. I don't like it. I mean, I've stood in a player meeting for 12 years and I know that one thing you want to walk into a player meeting do is to tell everybody exactly what they want to hear. It's much easier to be the leader in that case. And sometimes you got to make decisions that are in the right position for the game. I'm not downplaying that. I'm not trying to underplay that.

And I also understand the pain, the anxiety, the pushback that comes. But like I said, if I'm not willing to sort of push real change for the betterment of the game long term, then somebody else ought to be sitting in this chair. You guys can, when I get off this pad, guys, you can argue if somebody else should, and that's fair. But it's a, but I'm, but I, but I didn't take this job to, to, to look the other way and make it easier for me, because this job would be so much easier if I backed off this topic. But when you know, it's coming, and the data is obvious, and you know, that it can't be good for this game environmentally,

cost wise, driving ranges, netting, but you know, nutrients, maintenance, pace of play, time, expense, like all of those things come with a game that just continues to get longer over the next 40 and 50 years. And so it's you know, it's either act like this, or 20 years from now, they'll be saying it's too bad those guys 20 years ago, didn't have the guts to do something, they saw all the factors, they just couldn't do it. And I get that I've, I've read the memos from 20 and 40 years ago, I've seen the pain of doing this. And it's, it's all fear of this, a disrupted industry for a short period of time. But it's, it is the right decision. And I think if you got

people in the cold room, dark room, nobody else in the room, it'd be hard to refute. But I understand the challenge of implementation. Stay locked in on every swing every hole in every highlight with FanDuel and the PGA tour because right now new customers can bet $5 and get $200 in bonus bets if you win. That's 200 bucks. If you win, you could bet on outright winners, longest drive closest to pin and more feels like a Scotty week. I know they all feel like Scotty weeks. But you know, he was number one in strokes game approach last week at Pebble.

I think the rest of the game probably comes together here at a golf course that he loves out in Phoenix. Just visit fandle.com slash nlu and make your first bet and gimme with Fandle America's number one sportsbook. Fandle official betting operator of the PGA tour. Must be 21 older and president in select states or 18 older and president in DC. First online real money wager only $5 first deposit required bonus issued as non-controllable bonus bet was expired seven days after receipt restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Back to the pod. Well, I want to pick your brain on this kind of more on the technical side of the proposed changes here. And I want to preface this, of course,

that I am a rollback supporter. I'm a supporter of the efforts you and your team and the RNA have made towards regulating equipment. Yet, if I'm being totally honest, I gotta admit I'm a touch concerned about the effect of the change in the testing standards that will, as you mentioned, come into effect in the professional game in 2028

and for everyone in 2030. Some of that concern might be rooted in kind, you know, kind of what we've heard about the new ball, how it potentially could further exacerbate the reward from distance furthering the separation of the short and long hitters despite the ball not, you know, flying as far overall that you know, the way the testing standards are written, they're kind of somewhat relatively easy ways for a certain profile of player to almost

circumvent the restrictions with how they set up their equipment and things along that to say, what's your response to that? To say, again, I know something needed to be done. And if I was to guess this is a piece of the puzzle of addressing things, but what's your reaction to summing that up long-winded way of saying, like, I know you're upsetting the apple cart, I know you are cashing in some chips, you know, then some goodwill on that is what is proposed out there and the effect it's going to have. Let's focus on the pro level for now. Is it worth it in your mind of doing this? Or is this more of just a piece of the puzzle for

the overall changes you'd like to see made? Well, I think both it's definitely worth it. You know, I think I've had a lot of players standing for the overall changes you'd like to see made? Uh, well, I think both it's definitely worth it. Uh, you know, I think I've had a lot of players standing on the range say to me, Hey, Mike, just, just don't make any, go any farther than today. Like in other words, like just, just leave me alone. And, and this is as far as it's going to go. My answer always is that's exactly what we're doing. I mean, if you want me to have a ball that falls out of the sky at three 25, I mean,

I could implement that regulation, but that's going to change the game in a significant way. There'll be no chasing of competitive advantage for athleticism and, and, you know, swing speeds and dialing it in with your equipment. And we don't want to take that out of the game. I think it's one of the things that separates separates our game. And it's, you know, it's part of distance is an advantage. And if you can figure out a way to use it, you should. And so we're taking the exact same approach to golf ball testing, and implementing simply

some different numbers going forward. So what I would tell you is, we know from the last 50 years, that this approach to distance is still going to allow people to chase distance, it's still going to allow long players to be longer than short players, it's still going to allow short players a lot of room to kind of come up, but it will control like sort of how far is long for a while, you know, to your point. And it's not going to be the last change we're going to have to make over the next 20, 40

or 50 years. But it's certainly a first big step. Like I told you before, there's plenty of people who don't think this is enough. And I get that. But when you have to make a change across the board and you have to implement it across the entire game, you know, we felt from the very beginning, both myself and Martin at the time, that, uh, upsetting the recreational game in any significant way, wasn't, wasn't worthy, wasn't worth it, was going to be taken off the table. So when we went through across the board change, we had to get to changes that weren't going to upset that.

What I would say on your specific question about how, how our future golf ball is or isn't going to perform. I would just say, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I mean, I think the whole conspiracy theory of how a new ball is going to react is interesting to me because we got 50 years of testing golf balls this way and I feel fairly confident that that feels a lot better than some backroom conspiracy theory on what if.

Will people be able to hit the ball farther than 320 yards all in when they dial it in? Yes, and they're doing that today. Will our overall distance levels at elite levels, not just tour levels, but college and pro be a little less in 28 than they were in 26? They will, but it won't last forever. And of course they'll figure this out. They'll figure this out with equipment.

They'll figure this out with athleticism, swing training, speed training. And quite frankly, we don't want to take that off the table. I mean, I actually think that's one of the exciting things about the game. We also just don't want to obsolete this game in the next 50 years because of what's got to be built, where it's got to be built, and how it's got to be managed. I know people sitting in Florida don't care about how much you want to go, of course, but if you're sitting in Tucson or Portugal or Australia, you certainly do. And, you know, we've just got to make sure we don't wake up and and we're like some other

sports have happened where their their venues start to disappear. And so exactly how these golf balls are going to perform, we're way too early in the prototyping stages. And I've seen this with all other kinds of testing that comes through our building, what we see in year one and what we see in year three in development are our night and day. So I'd hold that thought for 18 months and then let's have it again. Yeah, speaking on the 18 months, I was curious if you could just kind of remind people of the timeline, what's the next steps look like? Where are we at in the process and kind of

what happens next? Yeah, so we announced last January that in 2028, we would go to this ball at the elite level and really not really mandate the change of this at the recreational level until 2030, mostly because it would have such little impact from a typical recreational level. I'm not really sure it's worth it. Helps the manufacturers. It was something the PGA of America, quite frankly, asked for in a pretty significant

way, which is to have a little bit more time between implementing at the championships and implementing it at a member guest. And so that was kind of one of the late things that we heard pretty loud and clear that we implemented. What it really means is that in 2028, if a ball is going to be on the conforming list, it would be a ball that comes off the face at a faster speed than we test today and can still not fly farther than 320 yards all in on that new higher speed. So coming off the speed at 183 miles an hour versus coming off the clubface at 176 miles

an hour. And you guys follow enough golf to know 183 miles an hour is certainly not the highest end of the game today. But if you took elite level golf and long players in the elite level golf, you'd find the 183 is about the average. It's not the high end. And the last time we changed this back in 2004, we really did go to the highest end. If we went to the highest end, we were concerned that it had too much impact on the recreational game. So that's why the change. And then so that's the plan. Right now, we're in a series of dialogues with manufacturers with

regards to markings and labelings. And how do we help them through that transition? And that's the plan. Right now, we're in a series of dialogues with manufacturers with regards to markings and labelings and how do we help them through that transition. And while we had a long listening period in terms of what the decision was, now we're in this couple of year listening period in terms of how do we help the consumer and the player and the manufacturer in this transition? What choices can we make that would be helpful in the process? So it's still a back and forth dialogue, not on the decision, which would we've made the decision. So it's still a back and forth dialogue, not on the decision, which would we've made the decision, but in terms of how do we implement that decision

with the least amount of complications. Well, and just real quick on this, Deidre, just to say for the listener's sake, we're bypassing a whole part of this conversation of why is it a problem when the ball goes far, the effects on the competitive nature of the game the effects on golf courses that's a you know, a conversation we've had many times in the past and we know your time is limited on

there. I don't mean to your time is limited today but conversation that you know, we can't reheat every single time but if you're a newer listener and it confused us to how we get straight to this conclusion can refer you to many previous conversations we've had on this topic as well but just wanted to acknowledge that but go ahead. Mike's got a whole conversations we've had on this topic as well. But just wanted to acknowledge that. But go ahead, Deitch. Mike's got a whole body of work just on this podcast alone. Exactly.

You know, you can dive into the archives. I was going to say, Mike, I know Pebble Beach is probably a venue that you guys watch closely since you, you know, it's on the schedule for a number of future US Opens. This past weekend, you know, this isn't even, this is meant to switch gears, not even really be a distance conversation, although I'm replaying some of those Rory drives on 14 in my head. But I was just curious what you thought of Pebble, what you thought of the setup. It seemed like a little different AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am with the firm greens. It didn't feel full US open by any means, but it was a different core setup. And I was just curious if you had any big takeaways from this past week and watching

Pebble Beach. There's no such thing as the bad viewing experience when you're watching the greatest players on one of the greatest venues in the world. So loved it. It's going to play different when we're there in 2027. I think you know that and certainly they know that. And I'd say Pebble Beach is a great example of a big time golf course that's got changes they've made and

changes that are coming kind of just to stay, you know, to stay relevant and stay impactful. And, you know, I just, I just loved everything about it. I wouldn't say that I watch week in and week out, but I don't miss when they play as Rory would say on one of the cathedrals. It's special. I do remember 2019. I remember when Gary Woodland went driver three wood on 14 and we thought it was one of the greatest two shot achievements, at least in, you know, in recent US history, because that was one of the pure three shot holes. But they're also playing a rough that was quite a bit different at the time, too. So, you know, taking certain lines might be a little bit more uncomfortable in a US Open setup. But yeah, it's, you know, what's happening in terms of, you know, taking certain lines might be a little bit more uncomfortable in a US Open setup.

But yeah, it's, you know, what's happening in terms of, you know, every par five being reachable. And it's funny when we hear people talk about pace of play issues and everything else. I mean, I spent time as an LPGA commissioner. So I knew for a fact that you can't play as fast as the weekend guy when there's 150 guys on a golf course. I don't care how fast you play the front nine. If you play the front nine in an hour and 50 minutes, and we had players that did it on the

LPGA every week, they would sit there on number 10 and watch six groups go out before they continued their round. And that's our fault. We do that at the US Open. And we think that US Women's Open at US Amateur is such an incredible opportunity in your life. We put as many players on that golf course as we can as daylight allows. So we aren't playing the US Open for the fastest possible time. We also put whole locations and green speeds that are gonna, you know, that are gonna make you think over an 18-inch putt. So it's, you know, it's different than the average person who says, you know, I play with my buddies in three hours and 50 minutes. I get it. Next time your buddy makes you

put an 18-foot putt for $47,000, we'll see how fast you scrape that in. But I love everything about Pebble Beach. I think it's a golf course that continues to withstand the challenges. But in terms of what they can do to the distance of that golf course, totally predictable. You could have anticipated it in 2014. You could have anticipated in 2004. And we can anticipate it right now for what it'll look like in 2034, you know, if no change or what they'll have to do in terms of, you know, property and changes to stay relevant if they want, you know, the golf course to play like it's played in the past. Pace of play is hot in the streets as we're in these winter rounds, limited daylight threesomes two tees I'm curious you mentioned, you know all your experience with with the LPGA as well. I'm curious kind of

You know what? What what can or should change on the pace of play front and you can that can be specific to? To pro golf in general or the USGA championships and kind of what can you tell us about? What the USGA has learned over the years studying pace of play and what kind of things have an effect on it? Yeah, the reality of it is, if I always say there's not some grand motto or credo

that anybody's gonna come out and change pace and play across the board. We've all played at golf courses where four and a half hours is all that's allowed. I don't care if you're the president of the club or if you're a visiting dignitary, you're gonna play in four and a half hours is all that's allowed. I don't care if you're the president of the club or if you're visiting, you know, dignitary, you're gonna play in four and a half hours or you're gonna be asked to step off the golf course or they're gonna post you around in the locker room where they're gonna put you in the, you know, the monthly and I've played at places where we've jogged up 18, just and with nobody else around just because you know, that's

that's what's said there. So you change pace of play locally and I see with both PGA Tour, LPGA, DP World Tour, those are choices you make with your members. I think sometimes the outside fan is unrealistic when they think about what a time should be. I remember when I was at the LPGA, we went through a period about three years where just nobody find players more than the LPGA around about a three year period.

It's hard on the players, hard on the rules officials, hard on everybody. And you know, we shaved off, I think 15 minutes. And 15 minutes is realistic, but you don't shave off an hour. You don't shave off an hour if you're trying to give people a real opportunity to play out there. You don't shave off an hour if you're going to put whole locations that are going to challenge the best players in the world. And so I think that we've got to be realistic about how fast it's fast when we're talking about the absolute top in the world. Um, and so, um, and so I think that, I think we've got to be realistic about how fast it's fast when we're talking about the absolute top of the top and nobody will change it unless they want to change it.

I can see that there's real interest on the tours to do that. And so I'm sure it will be, it will get quicker. I, I found it strange when they announced 120 players that so many people called in and said, that has nothing to do with pace of play. Um, I can tell you firsthand from 12 seasons, um, you can't play faster with 144 or 156 players because the block up at the turn. And again, I mean, everyone tells me how fast they play with the buddies. I get it.

But when you get to 10, you don't have to sit and watch a bunch of groups go off for their first team because there's more people on the golf course. So there's no magic answer. You know, we've, um, we've certainly learned a few things in our own world. But if every par five is reachable, if the golf course is full of people, and your greens are running at 12 and a half, you got to change your expectations. And, and we have to we don't love everything about how fast a USGA championship plays. But the

alternative, if we really wanted to play at 45 minutes faster, we have to change a lot about the championship and some of those sacrifices we're not willing to make. It's interesting too, because like you said, there's different levers you can pull that affect pace of play. I feel like one of them is green speeds. I'm curious, you guys are almost in a little bit of a do as we say, not as we do type of situation when you're trying to test the best players in the world at all different levels. And so I'm just kind of curious where your ethos on green speeds as we've, you know, the ball has gone farther. And again, all of these things kind of kind of work together and kind of go into the same soup a little bit to affect pace and affect all kinds of different things. But

it just seems like at everyday country clubs that, you know, at daily fee courses, like the, what do you think the role of green speeds is? And, and has that gotten a touch out of whack in your opinion? Yeah, there's no doubt. I mean, when we sit about, think about our championships, we've got 15 national championships, and we believe that those championships should be designed and developed to separate the best in the world and figure out who the best player is, at least that, that week. And to do that,

green speeds comes into play when you're talking about the absolute best in the world and figure out who the best player is at least that week. And to do that, Green Speeds comes into play when you're talking about the absolute best of the best, not just at the PGA Tour level or the LPGA Tour level, but certainly amateurs and junior amateurs and the like. So we make that choice because we really want to create a challenge that's worthy of a national championship. Our green section at the USGA kind of fights the opposite battle when they're in consulting with golf courses all the time, which is, if your members are complaining about four hours and 45 minute rounds, let's set new expectations in terms

of what we can get done here. If you want to carry a US Open rough and US Open green speeds, then it's going to be a different golf course and a different expectation. You might get US open a place to play then as well. Exactly right. Exactly right. So what we always say is let's figure out what expectations we're going to set together with your members. In my case, when I go to a national championship, I want to set expectations with the people

that made it to that far as this is going to be one of the toughest championships you played. You're going to play every club in the bag, including the one between yours. That's going to get dirty and we're going to see how we can separate the best of the toughest championships you played. You're going to play every club in the bag, including the one between yours. That's going to get dirty. And we're going to see how we can separate the best of the best. That doesn't have to be the same expectation you set at a member member or just weekend play. And so I get it. Sometimes what we exhibit on TV can affect the rest. But we think of our national championships very different than we think about our agronomy consulting agreements, what we're working on with people and

individual golf courses every day where you're trying to make golfer satisfaction enjoyment, the number one, you know, the number one goal. I think you guys have watched enough US Open's to know that's probably not in the top two of our goals when we set up a US Open when we're trying to separate literally the best of the best and give them the championship they wouldn't get week in and week out. So you mentioned something that I've always wanted to ask about, which is kind of the consulting with golf courses and this has a whole longer tail on it. But I think for a lot of golf fans, they see the US Open, they see the US and the US women's

open, they see the gin app. And I almost wonder if that's where their personal connection to the USGA kind of stops. And I know there's a lot more that kind of goes on below the tip of the iceberg. I'm wondering if you could kind of spell out some of that stuff, because it's something that I feel like I don't even have a great sense of. I know there's a lot of agronomy testing. I know there's a lot of kind of grass planting and ways to have stuff that's more drought resistant. So I'm taking your answer, stepping on it. But if you could spell that out to maybe some of the things

that people don't realize they have a connection to the USGA about. Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, you guys know me at the risk of this being a four hour podcast. I could really get revved up here. But we believe and we call Unified Showcase Government Advanced. We take the letters of USGA and that's my elevator speech

or more importantly, my elevator speech, or more importantly, my flight speech. Because if I hop on a plane and I've got, you know, US Open, Oakmont on my chest, I'm gonna be having a conversation with a guy and somewhere in that conversation he's gonna go, what exactly is it that the USGA does again? You know, in the alphabet soup of golf,

you know, nobody sort of knows what each other does. So I always say Unify, Showcase, Governance, Advance. Unify, Handicapping, Course Ratings, World Handicaps, 133 countries in the world on the same handicapping system. So you can hop off a plane anywhere, play with anybody, any skill level, and have a game. Something that our sport has that every other sport would kill for. It really makes our game unique. Showcase, 15 national championships, boys, girls, juniors, seniors, professional damnatures. We really believe wherever you are in your golfing journey, there ought to be a national championship you can aspire to,

whether you can reach it or not, it's up to you. And then part of Showcase is protecting and preserving the history and showcasing it, so World Golf Hall of Fame, museums, all things we really believe in to capture the greatness of the game. Govern the game, that's the fun stuff we've been talking about, you know, that's rules and testing of equipment and NILs and amateur status, all things that aren't fun, but without it, we'd all be playing a different game. And quite frankly, national championships and governance

is why the USGA was formed in 1894. Cause when golf was taking off in America, every club was hosting its own US amateur. And so there was four or five guys who thought they were the US amateur champion, and every club had slightly different rules. So this is what we do at this club, and this we do. And so USGA was formed to say, give us a national compass, where we all play by the same game, we all play by the same rules. And we play for a national championship under one heading. But the big one DJ is advanced. And that's really where I've, I've really, you know, back when

I first joined this conversation, you guys said, what's different? I really tried to push our organization to be even a bigger, we call them BBLs, big, bold leadership initiatives. Where are we going to be bold, put our money where our mouth is and really make a difference in this game? So 15, 30, 45, in the next 15 years to we're going to invest $30 million to help any golf course in the world reduce its water footprint by 45% without knocking five holes off your golf course, but really help you with with new

techniques, new research, you know, we spend a little over $2 million a year today on turf grass research and universities all over the world trying to figure out what's the next great strain resistant water resistant golf, resistant golf, golf turf that can really help the game. But it's, you know, it's our investment in girls golf, you know, drive chip and putt first tees. These are huge investments we're making in the game. It's our, it's our United States national development team, you know, you know, almost a $50 million investment over the next, you know, 20, 30 years to really make sure we take our elite juniors

and help them reach the level that every other country is helping their juniors reach. But we haven't been doing in America. We endowed the Walker and Curtis cups. So no matter how much financial trouble I get us in as the CEO of the USGA, those championships can't go away. My goal long-term is to figure out how to endow all the amateur championships. So if the world were to change overnight tomorrow, we got to make sure the US amateur, the senior amateur, the women's amateur can never be touched by economic challenges of our business or of our game. So that's really the bulk.

And so I believe in the A, the advance of the game, where we're about to announce a really significant diversity-based launch. We call it USJ Launch, which is helping young kids get into the leadership of this game. We've done so much to help people compete in the game and play the game. Now I want people to get in and work in the game. And so these are big, they're bold, they're long-term, they're expensive, but they're all things that have an eye on how do we make the game better 30 years from now. And that's an area where I really wanted to push our organization to be

born in the front of the parade. I always said that we tended to be really good check writers at the USGF. If you had an idea, we thought it worked. We'd write you a check and we would usually be the your best check writer. And today we're the guys, I think on the US national development team, over 2000 people donated to us to support the US national development program. These are individuals sitting down writing a check saying please keep this program going. So we're in the front of the parade in some of these things and I'm really excited that almost everything I just listed includes the

PGA of America, the PGA Tour, and Augusta National, and the RNA that it's doing it for the industry and with the industry, not instead of the industry. That's well said. I got myself frothing there. No, I love it instead of the industry. That's well said. I got myself frothing there. Oh, I love it. That's great. That's what I was needing to hear. They answered about four of our questions, I think. Onto a little bit of news that is, as this podcast is coming out, is public now in the world. As we're recording, we're just finding out about some exemption changes for the Men's US Open

as it relates to live golf. I'm wondering if you could kind of outline those, the changes that we're seeing here and kind of the rationale behind them. Yeah, let me start with the OWGR part of it. I'm a board member of OWGR. I can't speak for the organization that can speak as a board member. And I would say this, and I say this all the time, which I think catches people off guard. There's only one reason why the OWGR board is not pursuing how to get live into

the official world rankings. And that because live notified actually notified the media, not us, but notified the media, they're no longer interested in pursuing it. And, you know, as a result, we said, fine, we're not chasing it. But in our last correspondence, this all started, I'm very proud of the process. And they engaged us to be part of the OWGR, PJ tour, the DP World Tour recuse themselves from the process. There was just four board members reviewing the live application, neither of which were on none of those four on competitive tours. And we did what we always do. We asked a series of questions of live. I wouldn't

say those responses were timely or complete. I mean, we just didn't get answers to all our questions. I remember one thing we asked was how many players on live cannot be relegated? I've been contractually can't go away if they have a bad year. And the answer was I think five or six or six or seven was the written answer. And then about a month later, there was an article saying that all 14 captains can't be regulated. So we followed back up, it turns out it's 14. And that's not that's not I'm not bitter. I'm just saying there were some differences. And then in our last correspondence, which was October of, of last year, or maybe it was the year before

last year, they all run together to me, but we, we sent them a letter that said, essentially, we think we can figure out the math behind 54 holes, shotgun starts, three day events that your your unique format won't keep us from figuring out how to get live into the OWGR. But we do have a couple areas that are significant enough that we can't move forward now and opened up the opportunity to say if you want to continue dialoguing and resubmitting with different thoughts, as we've done with other tours by the way, and the

largest of those two, we mentioned two, but the largest was the the closed nature of the tour. It's because some people can't play their way off. We're not exactly sure how people play their way on. There was a spotter or four that you could play into. But other than that, fields were filled and they explained to us, we're filled with an executive committee that got together to decide who played in. We said, that's fine. We're not here to talk you out of your format.

But if we're going to compare you to the 26, 27 tours that are playing OWGR and the 8,700 people that play under the eligible male tour basis, we've got to figure out a way to make that equitable and fair. What we don't want to do in a chase to figure out 54 guys is to do something completely unfair and inequitable to the 8,700 people that are playing by the set of published rules. So, but we we definitely encouraged them. And I've had this conversation with Scott O'Neill who just started, which is the reason we're not looking at OWJR is not us, you know, when you said not interested

anymore, but we were interested in continuing the dialogue and just really wanted your thoughts on how we would create a less closed network. Because if you think about it, guys, if we give points to a small group of people, and those people can't play their way off no matter how bad they play the next year, they're back playing and beating fewer people to get points. And if you play your way off the BP World Tour or the PGA Tour, you're going to find yourself on a different tour next year.

You might be playing for OWGL points, but a lot fewer because you got to kind of work your way back up. And if that doesn't exist on other tours, then we have sort of an unequitable situation. So we said, if you could sort of help us figure out how to address that issue, and we're open to whatever ideas you have. But their answer was never to us. Three months later, they sent a press release saying we're out. And that was fine. As I've said many times, we can figure out live players without using OWGR as it relates to at least my championship. I can't speak for the other tournaments or majors. So this event, so the long way to say all the way back, Sally, I apologize. But today we announced in the 2025 US Open at Oakmont,

we'll have a full exempted position for the top player on the live points standard year to date as of May 19th. As long as that, and we will take that not otherwise qualified, as long as that player is in the top three. So in other words, if the number one player year to date is john rom and he's already qualified, we'll look at number two, if that player is already qualified, we'll look at number three, if it goes farther than number three, we won't allow that

player and you got to perform at that level. And then the the 10 players that are in the top 10 at that, of April 7th, when we start talking about those players can go straight to second stage qualifying. Today, I'll bet live players would say or live organization would say, well, that's not that big a deal. Those 10 players are probably going to be able to skip first round qualifying anyway. And that's true. But I think if you start looking long term, if OWGR and live don't come together, we wanted to make sure that top players that were performing among that quality competition, if they start falling out of, you know, distant numbers of world rankings, we want to make sure so.

So we said is in 2025, we'll essentially take the hottest player through mid May, as long as that player is in the top three that wasn't otherwise qualified and they get in and then in 2026, we'll actually have two exempted spots through the live tour. One will be hottest player year to date as we had in 2025 and the other will be the number one player from the full season year before. So we'll look and see who came in in the top in 2025 for their full year. And again, we'll drop down if the first one's qualified as long as they're in the top three. And we'll take the top 10 players year to date and give them an opportunity to skip

first round qualifying if they want to try to qualify for the US Open. We're a little different and I admit that. I mean, about half our field is always completely wide open. So if you want to play in the US Open and you've got the willingness, you can play in the US Open. It's not a closed shop. We don't deal much in invites and special exemptions. That's a pretty rare thing at the US Open. But if you're a hot player in live or if you had a great year this year, then you can get into next year.

And I'll tell you the same thing I've said to live people that have asked me about is anything coming from us. And I said, I do see a pathway from live into the US Open. I know that when we announce a pathway, you'll find it totally inadequate relative to the size. And somebody said to me, how do you know how we're going to react? And I said, because every tour finds their pathway in the US Open totally inadequate. Horn Ferry feels that way. The DP World Tour feels that way. The PJ Tour feels like that's just, it's just not enough. And you guys don't give us enough spots. And it's fair. But we also remember

that half our field is wide open. So if you really want to be in, you also don't block a bunch of people out of it. So now they join the ranks of I can't believe that's all you do for us tours, which kind of falls into what everybody says. But to me, if something were to change and how live and PJ Tour and DP World Tour all live together, And if something were to happen at OWGR, we'll obviously take a fresh look at this. But if, you know, we've been waiting, I think as many have, we've been waiting a long time to sort of see what live was gonna be in a post framework agreement.

And I think at this point, we felt like, you know, we've waited a long time. And now if, you know, now we probably ought to have a pathway and now we'll just, we'll reassess if the environment of professional golf is different in the future. I think that makes sense in terms of exactly how you laid that out with OWGR and the issue I've had with live with OWGR from the get-go and that many have had is the qualification part. It's really really really hard to measure the quality of play when you're

only playing against the same guys and you don't have it easily replaced, you know, guys aren't getting easily replaced, which has been proven out by guys supposedly getting relegated and they're just signing right back up for the league. Right. I mean, that just compared to how all the other tours work. That's not a fair way to qualify for tournaments. But at the same time, it's really hard to argue somebody who's in the top, the quality of golf on the live golf tour same time, it's really hard to argue somebody who's in the top, the quality of golf on the live golf tour is, is high enough to say if you are in the top three by May, you are playing world-class golf. You are playing very good golf that deserves, uh, either a special exempt. Like, you know, you guys have the ability to give special exemptions into the tournament as well as does Augusta national to say, you know, Hey, if you're,

if you're, if you're playing this good golf on this tour, we, we know that you are deserving of a spot and here it is, I think is a fair way of allocating it. Well, and I think the other thing too, Sal, is that we've, I think, been trying to maybe preach a little patience on is, there are a lot of people treating the OWGR as if it was one of the laws of physics or something.

And that is the only possible way that anyone could ever get into one of these fields. And it's like, man, I think, you know, give this a little time. And if the majors and Mike, you can speak to this, but if the majors feel like they're not putting out the best possible field, or if they feel like there's a way for their field to be a little bit better, I promise they can make any exemption categories that they want, you know, and that's what we've kind of seen over the last couple of years. And it's like, man, if you're, and I'll say this, Mike, so you don't have to, but if you're mad that you missed out on maybe one or two or three years in the transition, I think that's maybe what the money was for

to go play this new tour. I don't know if you have anything else to add there, Mike, but it's good to see that the OWGR is great, but I think there are blind spots in it for things exactly like this. But I think that's where it's on the championships to be malleable and be able to constantly be changing how they're looking at things. Yeah, I think the popular response on OWGR and Liv is, and it's just fundamentally not true is because of the format they play, we can't put them into OWGR. And I would, if I was probably saying things I

shouldn't, but as one board member, I know that we were looking into technically how to address the difference between their format and other formats played around the world. But we couldn't really get past the closed shop and somebody selecting who gets in this small group, and quite frankly, thought that this would be a dialogue back and forth. And we'd figure out if we could find it but it was you know I also felt like when they publicly said not interested anymore that was their way

of saying you know we like our process we know it's different and we don't care as it relates to being ranked and I think that's as I've said to many of people that I know on live board members and the like I was okay with that like that's a choice you're making you were making. You were coming at this a different way and I felt like it was a branding statement about we like our reverence and we're gonna kind of stay there. But you know, we, I actually said to Scott,

I said, I'm gonna mail you the last letter we sent to the board of LIV and read it because it essentially invites you to continue a dialogue if interested. We realize this is a tough issue to address, but we need to address this issue if we're going to be equitable everybody else in it. And if you decide not to pursue AWGR, there's nobody on the board that's interested or going to chase you. And I think we've sort of proven that. So you're right. There's other ways for us to make sure.

We at the US Open, I can't speak to other majors or other championships, we think the competition is strong enough that you're if you're beating some of the folks that are there that are clearly world class talent that are going to be spending a lot of their future in places like the US Open. We want an opportunity we we at the end of January, the beginning of February every year we announce our field criteria for the US Open in the year that's coming up. So this is pretty normal for us. And, and we want to make sure that early in a season, people know what they're coming up. So this is pretty normal for us.

And we want to make sure that early in a season, people know what they're playing for. So if we're going to make changes in terms of who gets on from the PGA tour, the DP World Tour, Liv, Korn Ferry, et cetera, we want them to know early enough in their season so they know it. So this is our way of saying,

hey, this is what's available. If you think this isn't enough or not appropriately done, we can deal with that feedback. And like I said, you'd probably be just like every other tour, but there is a way today to play your way out of the US Open other than qualification. And I do say, because I mean it, you know, in half our field is essentially from the open qualification. If anybody really wants to play in the US Open, there's never been and never is anything stopping you from doing that. That's just a personal choice. You have heard us rave about the stack. There's a reason why. We've seen extremely real gains in

clubhead speed, ball speed, distance on the golf course. Had to take a little break when the babies came. I'm starting to get back into it. I'm happy to see I haven't lost as much speed as I thought I would, but it's an incredible program. It's a great app. It's not intimidating. It's very easy to do in your backyard. It 3035 minutes to do once you do the warm up routine and the swings. It's fun to do. It's very easy to track your gains. The app motivates you. It gives you reminders of when you're supposed to be working out. It tells you exactly what to swing, how long to rest. It measures

all of the growth, all that for you and it gives you awesome, great positive feedback. I love doing the stack. It's been DJ actually brought the stack out to California and I showed up to our house. He was doing it in the garage dripping sweat. He's so I've never seen him so motivated to do anything. So go to the stack system.com use code no laying up for 10% off your order. I cannot swear by this product enough. I'm going to be ramping up again here this spring. And I'm ready to start

seeing that 125 mile an hour clubhead speed. Again, like I saw at the end of speed again, like I saw at the end of last year, which I still don't know how I did. But it is truly just through doing the stack. Thestacksystem.com, code no laying up for 10% off your order. Back to Mike Wong. So I'm curious this one, how do you view your role in what is currently going on in men's professional golf as we are several years into this? And I'm interested both in your view as the CEO of the USGA and just also just your thoughts as a golf fan in general. Well, I always said, I've said this for a couple of years, it's, you know, obviously it's a shame what the kind of the challenges going on at the highest end of men's professional golf. Because if,

and you guys have heard me say this, we weren't arguing about that. If it wasn't stealing all the oxygen in the room, we'd be talking about the greatest swing in this game we've ever seen. I mean, we're seeing growth rates what we thought were fundamentally. I mean, honestly, I would have told you 10 years ago, unachievable. If you'd have said, Mike, you can grow the game by 40 to 50%. It can be grown by women and juniors and people of color. We're going to see more people having handicaps and more people connected to the game, more donations made back to the game. These are all things that have happened, not just since COVID. I mean, COVID did throw us in hyper speed, but we're happening kind of leading into COVID. And it's a shame that we're

sort of missing the moment. I mean, I think people know the game is better, but how much better? There just isn't room in the press conference after these other things that anybody sort of cares to write about. And it's too bad because the game is amazing. I've said from the very beginning, the game is big enough to take any kind of formats we want to throw at it. I've seen it from skills competitions to par threes to all kinds of things. I mean, the game can digest a lot. And if, if what's going to happen is forever, you know, live in the PJ tour and

DP world tour and other tours are going to be separated, this game's going to be just fine. And we're proving that in terms of what it means to, to participation. I do think, I do think we've gone through a period where, you know, the fans are kind of sick about hearing how much money and, you know, and, and've seen in other sports, I mean, when you follow the lockout or a strike in football or baseball, viewership dips for a while. But great competition like we saw this weekend brings it back. And, you know, with this many more people playing the game, loving the game, digesting the game, I've said this many times, if golf were a stock, you'd buy it. And if you don't believe me,

ask the people to just invest in a billion dollars in it or the, the next group that wants to invest its billion dollars. Nobody invests a billion dollars in something that they think the future forecast is weaker. And there's a reason why money is coming in this game at a rate we've, we've never seen before. It's because, you know, it's a, it's an easy bet. It doesn't mean it's going to be an easy ride or an easy road, but the bet is legit. You guys are a great example. I mean, I don't know if anybody would have would have bet on the podcast and 10 years ago. But look what you kind of

done in terms of creating interest awareness for people at all different levels that I'm just really proud of, of where the game is. And I think sometimes, you know, arguing about where, you know, three or 400 people are gonna play next year is interesting, it takes a lot of oxygen, but long-term, I mean, that's gonna get settled out, even if settled together or apart. And when it does, the game's big enough to digest all of it. And I don't buy into this logic that, you know, just because somebody's got $600 billion in the bank,

they'll lose two billion a year forever, because, you know, that's the, you know, just because somebody's got $600 billion in the bank, they'll lose $2 billion a year forever. Because you know, that's the you know, billionaires don't become billionaires because they're crazy. They become billionaires because they're smart. And so at the end of the day, the business models that can create a real business will succeed and ones that won't will fail. And everybody's got time to figure out which which those are. So it's a shame because I think it's taken away from the greater, but I've already seen

on a personal level and watching my kids, I've already seen between TGLs and events like this last weekend, there's a hunger to get back to watching the best in the game competing. I mean, I was sitting on the 18th of the Pioneers last year, watching Rory and Bryce in battle and what a great example of how great this game is. I got nothing but confidence in the future of this game. And like I said, you don't have to take my word for it, figure out where real money is investing and it's investing in this sport.

You mentioned just real quick on Pinehurst last year, that was one of the best US Opens I can remember. I'm curious what kind of the aftermath of that was like. Were you guys kind of buzzing after the fact, after Bryson finished it off? And I know he's stomping around with the trophy and taking photos with everybody. I'm just curious kind of what the aftermath of that championship was like. It's probably an answer for everybody, because everybody was going... When you're in that moment, everyone's got their own thing going on. When Bryson was in the bunker, I was standing on the on the patio behind the green and I remember thinking to myself, we got to get out of the way. Like if he doesn't catch this, if he doesn't catch this just right, like he's going to end up on this.

And by the way, no way you're getting up and down from back there. So like, I'm thinking, you know, he could lose this thing and he hits the shot of at least the shot of my life in terms of what I've ever seen hit. So this kind of sound this will this will sound strange but when Bryson was up there and I know how close he was you know two three feet away I realized at that moment that if he makes that putt we'll go to commercial and when we come back I got to be in the 18th green and and presenting the stuff but there'll be three minutes probably so if he misses that putt we're going into playoff and it's gonna be an unbelievable playoff. But either way, I decide if he makes that

putt, I want to go see Rory before Rory leaves. And you guys know what a locker room looks like late on a Sunday at a major. It's empty, right? Everyone's collected their stuff, they're flying home. But I knew Rory was down there because he has to be in case this thing goes to playoff. So I went down to the basement of Pinehurst and never saw Bryson make the putt. I just waited for the, it was either going to be a ooh or this incredible ovation. And then I'd know what he did. And so when I heard the place go crazy, the building kind of shook a little bit when he made the putt. I started kind of half running and walking to our, we have a locker room and then a past champions locker room. So I knew Rory would

be in the past champions locker room. So I can run in front. There's nobody down there. My entire team is on the 18th, you know, on the 18th green. So it's empty in the basement. And I'm kind of fast walking because I'm thinking to myself, my team's going to kill me because I'm not on my assigned spot on the 18th green while we're at commercial. And as I get close to the champions locker room, which is on my left, around the corner comes the entire Netflix full swing team. And they got the boom microphones and the fanny packs and they are sprinting toward the same place I'm going. I'm thinking those guys are

thinking the same thing I am like, as cool as that story is, let's capture. And there's nobody down there. So I in the middle of nowhere, I scream, effing stop. And this guy, you know, this team freezes for a second. And he looks at me and he goes, Mr. Juan, you gave us the right to be here. And I'm thinking as soon as he said it, he's right. Like we let them have free rein of the place. And I said, not right now. And luckily for me, one of my one of my teammates, a guy on the player services came running down the stairs and goes, Mike, what's wrong? I said,

freeze those guys right here. He's holding them as I walked in and talked to Rory in the locker room for a couple minutes. And I'm glad I did because you know, I got a chance to talk to Rory, ran back up, did the thing. And it was amazing. It was amazing, to your point, championship. I was super proud to be part of it. I take a lot of credit on the 18th green like I did something, but I'm smart enough to realize I had nothing to do with that championship other than stand there at the podium and act

like I have every reason to be there. But you know, I just so much pride and I mean, I mean, my team, we had a anchor site, I said to my team a couple weeks before, we got to nail this comes we're coming back here every five years, like, this one's got to be good, which is the worst thing a leader can say to his team, which is, you know, you got to know like, how's that for added pressure? And I'm standing there, you know, when when I turn it over to Fred, and Fred's going to give the trophy to the Bryson, his caddy said to me, I forget how essentially he said it, but like, how many fairways did we hit today?

And I said, I don't want to tell you, like I knew, but I said, just to join them and look at this place places going crazy, he goes, Come on, how many? And I'm like, Come on, leave it alone. And he goes, Mike, how many fairways? I said, I think he hit four or five fairways today. And they sort of had a cringe. He goes, Yeah, I knew it wasn't many. And they looked at me and kind of smiled. And he goes, You think anybody else has ever won the US Open hit five fairways on a Sunday? I'm like, I don't even have to Google that you win. And so but it's an amazing moment. And I thought Bryson not only handled the moment like a champion, but he really handled the celebration.

He let everybody else be part of it. We're having our annual meeting there in about three weeks at Pinehurst. We decided when everybody arrives that it gets a Friday night, everybody gets one shot out of the bunker where Bryson was to see how close you can make it. And we're having to like board up the windows of the deuce

because people are gonna be firing rockets off of the clubhouse. But it was an amazing, amazing moment. Great for great moment for golf. You know, moment I'll I'll never forget the combination of, you know, kind of Rory's pain and how much it meant to him. And that's what I'll remember. Like how much it meant to a guy who has a lot of wins and my chance to kind of share with him how proud we and I are of him and what he means to the game, and go up and do that and have the same but different moment with Bryce. And it was powerful as a guy who's about to turn 60. I'm not sure I'll have a better moment than that. You mentioned going back to Pinehurst and having a lot kind of stacked up there and Oakmont and Pebble and Shinnecock and a lot of other places as well. Is there any anxiety of getting these venues on the calendar so early or how are you feeling in that regard? and a lot of other places as well. Is there any anxiety of getting these venues

on the calendar so early, or how are you feeling in that regard? No, it's interesting that people kind of misread that. So if you're in the business of running a major at a different place every year, what typically happens is you go to the country club in Boston, you haven't been there in 50 years, you run a major, 90 days later,

we go sit down with their leadership and we walk through all the things that worked and all the things that didn't. I wish we would have paved this. I wish we would have moved that, you know, the parking there didn't work like we thought it was going to work. And you kind of walk through the debrief and then we leave. And in typical USDA, we would come back about 12 years later, everybody be different, we'd be different, they'd be different. And we'd say, what do you think about placing a US open here again? And we would all do it again for the very first time. And you'd make all the same mistakes, you don't do any changes. So when we say to someplace like a Pinehurst or an Oakmont or a

Pebble or Oakland Hills, hey, we're going to come pretty regularly. But we got to make some real investments together in some of these things that make the championship better for players, better for media, and better for fans. Um, because it's a, it's a disadvantage to us in terms of somebody that moves around. So like when we were, when we were able to go to Pinehurst and really have a run of the place, cause they know we're coming there and, and bury cables underground, and put plumbing underground and, you know,

change the way we had our parking set up and, and really do things as an investment between the two of us, uh, but the state, uh, in most of these cases, like the like if you think about Oakmont, the state of Pennsylvania, the local community and us, are all we've we've bought a big piece of property across the street from Oakmont. Since we're going there all the time, and we need parking, we decided rather than actually pay somebody a million bucks every time we share, when we buy it for 2 million, and by the third US open, it will have paid for itself. And we can they can actually use it for the rest of the time. We're doing the same thing at Pebble.

We've made huge investments in North Carolina. It enables us to say, if we know we're coming, and you know we're coming, Marion, Oakmont, what would we do if we knew we were coming every eight years for the next three decades? What we're doing, I mean, wait till you see Oakmont if you haven't, in terms of changes we've made to the course, changes we've made to the driving range, changes we've made to the logistics, not because we're coming in 2025, but we're coming so much in the next 25 years. That's the real benefit of anchor sites. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. We saw at the USAM at Oakmont, a lot of the players playing down wrong fairways for angles. Are you expecting to see that at the US Open? and are there, is there any chance we're going

to see some internal course out of bounds at Oakmont this summer? I can only speak for myself when I talk setup. I'm sure John Bodenhamer throws up in his mouth because he knows like I wasn't hired for my setup skills, but I'm personally not a big fan of internal out of bounds. And I know they're not either. It's not something you'd prefer to do. Generally speaking, we're not totally trying to screw with the player. We're just trying to make sure it doesn't further mess with pace of play.

Like if you're waiting to hit up a fairway while another group is coming, it's just another bottleneck in the business. But we've because we hope you know, because Oakmont is one of our anchor sites, we're coming a lot we've, you know, we've certainly been aware of and had a voice in some of the changes that Gil Hans has done there. So some of those options may be less available to the player, I'll just say that maybe what you saw in the amateur. Now, I'm not saying people won't

do things we didn't see. But, you know, it's, it's our goal to make sure that we always say we want to play the toughest cathedrals of the game, we want to play tough, but fair when every club in the bag. And generally speaking, we want to play a golf courseedrals of the game. We want to play tough but fair when every club in the bag. And generally speaking, we want to play a golf course the way the designer envisioned it. And that's not always well received. Because sometimes we play bigger fairways and thinner fairways. But but I really believe and those are that's me taking credit for

john botenhamer setup philosophy. But but he believes in that setup philosophy. And so when we play these courses, including pine hearse, which we just played, you may not like that we bought, you know, 15,000 wiregrass bushes and planted them a month before we showed up. But that's the original vision of that golf course. And we wanted the best today to play with that designer had in mind. Same thing with LA before that or Boston before that. So yeah, you should expect some of those challenging alternatives to be a little bit more challenging than maybe when we played the amateur. Well, while we're talking about venues, I feel like we got to talk about Cypress Point where the Walker Cup is headed

later this summer. I'm curious, what's it like to get a notoriously private club like that on board for something like this? What were those conversations like? And what does it kind of mean for you guys to go to a place like that for a championship like this? What were those conversations like? And what does it kind of mean for you guys to go to a place like that for a championship like that? And maybe why is that well suited to host something like the Walker Cup versus, you know, US Open or something like that? You're right. I mean, I always say that the, you know, people

always say the greatest lineup of US based courses is the US Open. I've said, I don't know, I might challenge that it's the Walker Cup, because we can play that at some of the places seminal, you know, we're thinking about the Walker Curtis Cup Curtis Cup going to Pine Valley and the Walker Cup going to Cypress Point. I mean, these are, you know, these are this is as good as it gets in America. I was funny, I was in I was at an event in Cyprus a couple years ago, and Martin slumbers was

there. And he said, Mike, I've never been here before. And I said, Well, welcome to our Scotland. And he said, What do you mean? I said, Well, this little piece of land here in Monterey is our Scotland, you know, the land that God gave us that's just golf and wind blows it and it's just like you guys, like it, it just becomes the course that it was. And the designers were smart enough to kind of play it as, as God gave it to us. And, and I mean, for people that haven't had a chance

to see Cyprus in a big way, they're going to be blown away with the Vistas. It's a championship that probably couldn't hold Walker Cup if we were going to play four day stroke play and there'd be too many kind of drivable par fours in the current world order. But for match play events and for these kind of team and individual matches where we don't care how many birdies or how many times or without that many players on the golf course. We don't care if you think you can

get the one from the tee box and your weight is going to be it's going to be magical. And like I said, to me, Cypress is special because it feels to me and I'm not sure if Cypress will love this description when I play it, it feels like three different golf courses, the first six holes is different than the next six holes is different than the next six holes is different than the last six holes. You feel like you played multiple golf courses that day and you really stayed in

the same plot of land. The plot of land is really not that big. And you really felt like you, you really traversed a lot of different golf. I mean, I'm so excited about the venues. I mean, the amateur at, at, at Olympic, I mean, Olympic just delivers every time you play a championship there. Are you guys Monterey peninsula golf club guys? Have you had that experience? Once, I played once. It was just, it was raining. What do we get about six inches of rain during

that round? Yeah, that was a lot. Yeah, I'd be fortunate to play both. Yes. There's a bunch of golf courses. They're going to hate me to say this. I'll get a bunch of emails when your show comes out. But I think from a pure country club, like a club, I'm not sure there's better than Monterey Peninsula, golf country club, you know, 36 holes right in between Pebble Beach and Cypress. So you can already understand what that land looks like. I mean, sitting on the top, we usually do something at their beach club, which sits down

and the water breaking against the windows. I think for people that play at Monterey Peninsula Golf Club, they're going to walk out and go, I didn't know there was a club like that. I mean, sometimes it's hard to consider Pebble a club or Cypress a club. It's a different, they're different kind of clubs. They're, they're, you know, smaller and different, but like you're going to walk in there and there's me members sitting at the bar having a drink after the round and it just feels like everybody's club. It just happens to be in probably the most expensive plot of land

and in America, if not around the world. So there's just really cool things. I mean, Broadmoor for the senior open, I'm really excited to see the women play Aaron Hills. I think it's having played out there a few times. It is going to be a perfect venue for the best female golfers in the world. So yeah, it's exciting.

And it's always easy to get excited about venues, but I think this year is is pretty special in terms of our lineup. Well, we've talked a lot of pro golf, a lot of club golf. I'm curious and forgive me because this is extremely anecdotal. But, you know, we do a budget golf series called Strapped where we go and play a lot of a lot of Muni golf all around the country. And it feels like in one side of my brain, I'm here and golf has never been better. Participation is up. It's through the roof. It's unbelievable. And on the other side of my brain, I'm going to a lot of places like that.

And I feel like we're constantly here and like, yeah, there used to be five munis here. Now there's three. There used to be three courses. Now there's one. And I'm curious if any of that tracks with things that you guys are seeing because of the realities of a lot of what you're talking about, right? I mean, land is expensive. land is valuable, water is expensive and valuable. It's just, when we talk about kind of the health of the game, I'm curious your perspective, I guess, on kind of that at all levels, right? I mean, I know band and dudes is booked out three years in advance, but is that something you guys are seeing kind of

trickling through the rest of the game or, you know, how does that sit with you? Yeah, it's you're too young DJ to be dating yourself, but you're kind of dating yourself relative to the facts. So if you went back 10 years from now and you surveyed, which we do, you know, public golf and immunies and stuff, I would say about a third of them would tell you that they were in significant financial concern. I forget how they'd rank it like eight, nine or 10 in terms of their financial concerns for the future. And today that number is like 4%. So like, you know, what's what's happened in this take up of golf isn't a country club thing. It's not a pine hearse thing. It's

really a golf thing. And yes, you know, golf constricted and did for quite a while in terms of how much was available for the supply. But now the really cool thing that's happened is our demand has gone through the roof. And I'm really kind of proud of the game. I say this with a jinx because I know, but we really haven't like thrown a ton of new course building at it. We've done a we've done a ton of investment in reinvesting in the golf courses that exist, which is really pretty awesome. But we haven't really started throwing thousands of new golf courses back out there again to keep up with it. So the result of it is golf courses and golf course owners have never been in a more

profitable state than they are right now. And that's when the game is really healthy. When it's not someone like Augusta and Pinehurst and Bandan. But it's, you know, the golf course down the road. And so there, you know, it's funny when you ask them today versus 10 years ago, what are your biggest concerns? Labor, golfer expectation, trying to keep costs down relative to what we're trying to deliver back to the cost end, and staff that doesn't want to work the same because your tee sheet never slows down. So you used to let people go home. And now in the summer months, people are showing up at six o'clock, I'm going to play 18 holes in your golf cart to come in at 915. So it's really

those are real issues, you know, staff, skilled staff, especially skilled staff on the golf course. One of the things we're trying to address with our Greenskeeper apprenticeship program, because we've got to kind of change our thinking to 10 years ago, it was all about how can we fill your tea sheet. And now between us and the PGA of America and RNA and some of the others that really want to address these issues, we got to address staffing and club burnout for people that are there, skilled labor

on the golf course, and allowing people to kind of go home because it's pretty full. But I'm really excited because the game, when we were talking about things being okay 10 years ago, we sort of blow off the fact that at least on the public and uni level, okay meant you're surviving but you don't really believe your future is survivable. And that issue has currently gone away. It hasn't gone away forever. But any industry has got 3 three to 4% of venues that aren't kind of keeping up with the time. But when 33% are

keeping up, you got an industry problem. And we did just a decade ago. As we move towards wrapping here, I got a couple quick hitter questions for you on the way out. The JIN app allows you to do a little bit of snooping. And we were noticing we saw 72 from you posted somewhere in December. Is that right? Looks like you're playing a decent amount of golf. Where was that at? Looked like that was a special round. That was Orange County in Orange County. I think it's called Orange County National in Orlando in a day that, you know, it was like playing in Palm Springs. It was, you know,

74 degrees, not a stitch of wind, which is pretty rare for Orlando, and playing with a bunch of college buddies in a college reunion. And it was, I think it was day one. So it was before the abuse of our body. So you know, when you get a bunch of 59 year old guys together, night one is like, you still think you're 32. And then the next three days are just survival of the fittest. But day one, when you arrive, everybody tees it up, you're, you know, you up, you're borderline healthy. So yeah, I posted a posting, but the problem with shooting a 72 is living up to it. I'm a solid 78 guy, but when you throw a 72 on there, you become everybody's ATM for the next six months. You got to get a lot of rounds of golf in to get that out of there as well.

I know. And then it's all with your buddies. They're, oh my God, Mike's not doing any work. All he does is play golf. Of know, of course he's the guy. Here's what's funny for you guys. I'm so here's what's here's we'll tell you about my game. I'm five under at the turn three birdies and an eagle. So and I've never broken 70 in my life. So that's how good 72 was. So I've shot I've shot a number of seventies, but I've never been five under at any point in my life. I've been three under with three to play and found a way to work it back to par. But that tells you the, that tells you the sickness of my head.

I eagle nine and I'm walking off. And of course, one of the guys said to me, are you five under, which is, you know, like, dude, don't talk to the darting pitcher who's pitching a shutout. So, you know, a double on 10 was a given and it showed up. So yeah, the only way for me to shoot 72 is to get 500 to the front nine. All right. Well, I have a couple of quick championship questions slash suggestions. Well, we obviously have the USGA four ball championship. Has there ever been any thought to a foursims championship, an alt shot championship? Free idea to go run with if you've never thought

about it. You bet. I would say yes, our list of what's next is pretty significant and highly debated. But yes, and definitely the idea of a mixed team event in that front too, where you would see, where we would showcase a lot more men and women playing the game together on the same tee. I wish I could.

But as you can imagine, Sally, I think you know this, like, you know, we just launched the US Adaptive, like launching a new championship is not only quite a process, it's quite expensive. Like we don't, you know, these aren't revenue generating championships. So I have to find a way to actually, you know, especially when you think about what's happened to men's and women's purses on our majors in just the last few years, I, I guess, I just got to make sure that as we expand championships, we can do it in a prudent way. And, and so I think if you're holding your breath for championship 16, in the next couple years, you better be pretty good at holding your

breath. All right, that's fair. All right, well, that's going to take, we've taken up enough of your time today. And we greatly, greatly appreciate being able to bounce a lot of this stuff off of you on a pretty much an annual basis. So thanks for taking the time and answering all our questions and best of luck with the year. Excited, excited for the slate you guys have this year for championship wise.

It's going to be a really, really special one. And we're hoping to, hoping to get out to several of them in person as well. Well, I know you guys hear this and I hope you don't blow it off like typical type a personalities, but you really are an important part of the infrastructure of this game. I appreciate what you guys preach even when you don't like what I like and don't like me. I'm still glad you're out there doing what you do because I think this is how people get engaged in the game. And I can tell you my kids, my 20 something kids are all, you know, nonstop followers. So they'll definitely be critiquing me on no laying up. But just don't don't let that roll off your backs. I think it's you

guys are important part of the game. I really appreciate coming onto a place now that you guys have gotten to know me where I'm not on a shot clock because me giving a short and punchy answer is not in my vernacular. So when somebody says to me, hey, if somebody else talking about distance or US National Development Team or US national development team or US open setups, and they've got, you know, you've got three minutes before commercial break, I think man, there's somebody

else in our organization better suited for that. So I appreciate you guys giving me the format that I can live in. Yeah, you you're you don't have much to stand on in terms of pace of play. You know, you're getting put on the clock here relatively quickly. So but yeah, highly caffeinated and passionate are two dangerous tools. It plays well for podcasts. People love to have some audio while they're driving. So as always, appreciate your time, Mike.

Thanks for the time, guys. Best of luck. Cheers. Thanks, Mike. For Fandl, must be 21 and older and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or

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