No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 962: NLU Personal Golf Spotlight - Tron

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

We're back with the second installment of our personal golf spotlight series as Tron gives us his current What's In The Bag, relives his days as a junior golfer and details the process of learning and appreciating golf course architecture before and during his time with NLU. Then, for the main event, we pin TC down and force him to name his Top Ten Favorite Courses (subject to change, of course). Support our sponsors: Titleist Footjoy Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining The Nest: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at nolayingup.com/join Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. Johnny, that's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different? Better than most. Expect anything different. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Lenga podcast. My name is DJ joined by the beluga, Neil Schuster. Neil, how are you?

I'm fantastic, Dej, as always, I'm doing fantastic. I'd love to hear that. Good to be with you. This is going to be another one of what we're calling kind of our golf spotlight episodes. Neil, you broke the ice with this one, an episode that received pretty universally rave reviews, I think. Just you get deep in the lab talking about your own golf game, your own demons, your own goals, just a lot of stuff. Any kind of lingering takeaways from that and going

through that process from you? No, I was pleasantly surprised that people were fired up to listen to it. I forgot to say before we started recording, I wanted to do like the Chris Collins worth chair roll in. You know, we have TC, it is a TC spotlight. I was thinking we could keep them backstage and, and pop them in, but I'm really excited. I know I talked to good amount, like my early golf memories were included a lot of TC in them. Honestly, I don't excited. I know I talked a good amount. Like my early golf memories were included a lot of TC in them. Honestly, I don't know if I've ever really, you know, talked about how TC got into the game and you know, I got into it because I followed

him out there. So I'm curious to hear his perspective on, you know, I probably won't feature in as much because I was, I was just tagging along, but you know, let's put the interview light on, on big brother here. As you mentioned, we are going to be talking about your large brother, TC. Tron, good afternoon, my man. How are you? Hey, guys. I'm good. I'm good. Good to be here with you. I love having the tables turned. Well, we're going to get into a lot of different things about

your golf game. Before we do, let's just level set for the people. I think for the people who have listened to this podcast for a long time, who have watched our YouTube videos for a long time, they've seen you play a lot of golf. They're very familiar with your game. But for those that aren't, give me just a couple data points. Current handicap, ball speed, any of that kind of stuff to kind of describe your game. Yeah, I'm a 2.3 handicap at this moment, February 13th. We're recording this.

This is at 2.13 PM. So if this changes later in the day, that's currently where we're at. 2.13 Central. That's right. Yeah. Thank you. 2.3. I think that fluctuates anywhere from about a 0.9. I don't really get below that to about a 3.1. I don't really get above that very often, but it strikes and gutters in the meantime. It's, you know, very, I would say relatively high floor and a relatively low ceiling. And as far as the ball speed DJ, I'm going to put my hand up and say, I have no idea. That's great. I think that's no idea where I'm floating at. And I think that's kind of an analogy for my game. You took the words out of my mouth. I think that speaks to, speaks to a lot. Again, just a couple of procedural questions, but, uh,

talk to me about what's in the bag and, uh, and what clubs you're gaming right now. Yeah, I've been, uh, God, I used to be a tinker like the opposite of a tinker. I don't, don't take these clubs out of my hand, like out of my, my dead body kind of thing. We'll go kind of down, down the bag. I've had the GT2 in the bag. I freaking love it.

I feel like I have a 15th club in the bag with how good it is off the ground as well. Sometimes I don't even tee it up on the tee box. I just hit it off the ground. What loft are you playing TC? I have an 11 degree, you know. Same. Let's see. I used to play an eight degree growing up. I was playing an eight degree. I had a 7.5 for a while. And then that was in the days before adjustable drivers. I always put too much spin on the ball. And so a couple of years ago, we started working with Titleist again. It was like, oh my gosh,

I need to put more loft in my ball to get my spin down. Like how that's crazy. That's, that doesn't make any sense. Sure enough, it worked. Uh, I have a TSR or a GT two, three wood. And, and then I really want to shout out my five wood. Um, I went from a seven, from a seven wood to a five wood. It's the 18 degree. Like if I need an absolute like must hit this fairway, it is that club. It puts enough spin on the ball to where it really, you know, feels like it can kind of hold its line and love that thing. I've graduated. I'm pleased to report guys after, after our first couple of years with, with a titleist, I graduated back into a four iron from the 24 degree hybrid.

Yeah. Back, back into a four iron, which is great. I've got a four and five iron there, T 200. And I've got six iron through nine iron that are T 150. And I've got a S 300 shafts in those. And I'm a big cord grip guy. I've got golf pride cord grips on there. What else we got? We've got 46 degree, Vokey wedge. I've kind of gone to the Vokey pitching wedge there. I love that thing. So I got 46, 50, 54, 58. And the 54 was, I'm getting better and better and better at that. The 58 is, has turned into a weapon, especially out of the bunkers. I'm in that T grind and the grind man sent the A plus grind. They've sent an M grind, D grind. Nope. T grind is that four degrees of bounce. T grind is where I'm

at. The TC. It's so nice on the turf TC. Yeah. And then I've got the wider kind of the, the new port, the two plus, you know, wider, a little bit heavier, a little bit more MOI, but still looks like a blade basically. So. Well, and I also want to shout out our friends at footjoy, one of the presenting sponsors of this series. Give me one pair of shoes you'd wear every day for the rest of your life. You're a big shoe guy. Yeah. It's really interesting. I'm a huge, huge premier. Like I just love the premieres that Carlos has hundreds, maybe thousands of premieres. JT's extra premieres from now on, full of premieres for years.

Yeah. Like we were sponsored by other shoe companies. I would go to PGA tour, superstore and buy premieres off the shelf. That's how much I like them. But weirdly guys, I've been, I'm kind of trying to open up my horizons here, my perspective, and I've been wearing the Quantums quite a bit. These are the, or the Field Collection. These are freaking awesome. Great for Florida.

And then I've never been a Hyperflex guy until they came out with these new ones and they look clean. I feel like I'm glued to the ground and I need spikes. That's kind of my thing. If there's any sort of moisture in the ground, my feet tend to slip and slide and move all over the place. And I like feeling like I'm stationary and locked in. And I would guess the Hyperflex and they're really working on the style with the Hyperflex. They've gotten so much better the last two years on just like the color scheme, little less pop color in them. The new ones for 2025 are awesome.

Same thing too. They're lower on the ankle as well, which I like. I feel like they came up too high and they were like a mid kind of height. Now they're more similar to how I like my shoes to fit. I like my ankle to be kind of free. I know I'm not in the spotlight, but the quantums are, you know, call me out, but I wear those when I'm watching golf. Yeah. In, in, you know, what you meant like in your apartment? No, no. Well, it's bad weather here in New York. I've been wearing them in the snow. Yeah.

Like in the slush, you know, they're great. Utility play for sure. And the hyper flexes TC, they just make you feel like an athlete. Yeah. Well, Neil, let me, let me throw it to you. First question. You take it wherever you want to go here. Oh man. Okay. TC, what is your, like I wanna hear your first golf memory. So I'm gonna hit you with a Phil Mickelson inspired two part question. I hate two part questions. First golf memory, cause I don't know what it is.

And the second one is like when, like what got, what, you are the reason that I got the golf bug. What gave you the golf bug when we were growing up? And I think it was when we moved back from Canada to Atlanta, but those are, that's my two-part opener. Yeah, when we were growing up, like our family, we were always, we were always social members at Dunwoody country club. We didn't have a golf membership. Our parents played a lot of tennis up there. Franchise was kind of a menace

on the doubles scene up there. Shout out to our guy Mike Edwards on that front. And then we would head up the pool and all that. And then, but I remember, parents were always golf fans, but they weren't necessarily really golfers. Does that jive, Neil? That definitely jives. I know they went to the Masters when Bernhard Langer won

in 1990, I think. I don't think you won in 1990. I think it was after they were supposed to go and they went a few times when they lived in Chicago. And our grandpa was always a big, our mom's dad was always a big golfer and part of Arnie's army. Yeah. Big part of Arnie's army enlisted or officer.

I think they went to OCS. Yeah. Let me just get in front of the maya culpa. I don't know when Bernhard Langer, what year he won the masters, but I know my parents were there. Yeah, well I think they were supposed to go, I don't know either.

The second week of April, 1986. And I was born, so they couldn't go. I remember when you originally caught the golf bug, thanks to Mr. Nicholas. Exactly, exactly. So I distinctly remember, you know, like we would go up to Dunwoody and go for like the Easter egg hunt and you just go run

around on the golf course. I'm like, Oh, like this is like, that's cool. Like what, what are they doing out here? And then I remember our grandparents on the other side, Ken and Betty Schuster lived in Cincinnati. Neil, I know in your episode, you talked about the miniature golf place in Canada. Yeah, that had the fighter jet motif,

which a guy DM'd us and found it's no longer operational, which is unfortunate. It's unfortunate. He did give us the location of that. That did exist. But I think for me, some of it comes down to just like, even putt-putt of like going out, like we would always

play golf. Yeah, there was a place called Fontasia was Mount Asia and they turned into Fontasia. I think it was a 54 or 72 hole complex out of Holcombridge road. That's right. Atlanta up on the cliff there. Crazy. Yeah. I mean, DJ, it was, it's crazy that they were able to route a golf course on this piece of land. It's a mountain, it's a mountain track, DJ. True mountain golf. No, but we would go there when we would visit our grandparents in Cincinnati. There was a place called forest fair mall. I have a big airs wheel.

That's right. There was, I remember in Canada, Neil, there was a place that, I think it was Don Mills or around there, there's a big mall there, but they had, they were like 50 and 60 yard holes with like actual bunkers and water hazards and stuff like that. It was more like a long putting thing, but I don't know. I was always just fascinated with like putt-putt and thinking, all right, like, man, I want to go play a part three course or I want to go play a real golf course. So fast forward, you know, I remember that same golf clinic that you referenced in yours up in Canada. And then even before that, I remember dad cutting down a few clubs for us. I think they

were like knockoff pings. Like they weren't even like real pings, but they were like knockoff kind of like a, you know, basically like a knockoff of like a pingsing thing. And, and so we ended up, um, you know, I would just swing that seven iron around. Uh, and I think he had like a, it was a tour model or something like that. I think there was a brand called tour model. I would just swing that seven iron around the front yard. I remember my parents had, this was in, this was at our house in Atlanta before we moved to Canada. They had really nice like tight Bermuda in the front and our dad had the real mower, the front and then he had Fescue in the back. And so, you know, you kind of play around

the house like that. So I don't know, it was always just like the concept of golf was always kind of not really thrust upon us, but it was always just kind of like, oh, like this fun little diversion over here on the side. And then gosh, we went to, we moved back from Canada. We lived in Canada for two years. We moved back from Canada in We lived in Canada for two years. We moved back from Canada in 1996

during the Atlanta Olympics. Right before, two weeks before the Olympics. Yeah. And I think shortly after that, we started, I would go up to Dunwoody Country Club and play the nine hole. Actually, you know, I would go out to River Pines and play the par three course.

Oh yeah, that's right. They had the little par three out there. Yeah. And I remember I remember even then like the 18 hole course was a bridge too far. Hadn't gotten there yet. This was like, you know, going into fifth grade, I think. So maybe a little bit late coming to the game. And then Dunwoody had a, I think seven or eight AM on, on Fridays, you go out and play the back nine. Uh, like we weren't golf members yet at that point. So go out and play the back nine, walk. And so I think I started doing that. And then

I remember you came out and started coming with as well, Neil. And then from then on, it was like, basically, you know, going over to the driving range. There was driving range over off Holcomb Bridge called Deer Valley. There was a driving range over off Holcomb Bridge called Deer Valley. There was a driving range over off Holcomb Bridge or off of Morgan Falls called Steel Canyon. Then basically just begging mom and dad to take me to the driving range or take me to the golf course. From there, they joined Dominic Country Club as golf members. They upgraded the golf membership and then from there it was like Dominic Country Club as golf members. They kind of upgraded the golf membership. And then from there, it was like, like, you know, just drop me off at

8am and pick me up at 8pm or I'll, you know, I'll ride my bike home or whatever. And that was that kind of the rest was history. So, you know, went from there to Atlanta junior golf, like we're, you know, we would do little tournaments up at Dunwoody, but like I never really took lessons, I guess, which maybe that's why I'm so well, I brought up Kellenhoffer TC. We did, we did go see our, our, our guy out. Yeah. Like there was a few, like there was a guy, Roger, there was a guy, Jason Bender, who was one of the assistant pros. He was the punter for Georgia tech. Jason was the best. And then Roger took lessons from him. And then George, I mean, I think we went to him probably four or five times, Neil, and

it was all video stuff and very technical. And that really didn't, didn't jive with me either. And I think also like we were always playing, I was always playing with hand me down clubs. I never ever had my own set of new irons or like it was a big deal. I would save up and buy wedges or I remember I got a 975F fairway wood when they came out with that. That was my 14 or 14 and a half degree with the graphuloid shaft in it. I remember that. And then I got the 975 J That's when you became the generational driver of the golf ball that truly all know truly like that was that yeah I think you play that driver all the way till like through college

Well, yeah, I had the J and then I got the 983 K So I had to sell so many of those drivers. Oh man, They, they, they, they, like, I, sometimes I take it out to the range even today and just like, I love that club. TCO love this again. I'm not, I, I, the spotlight's on you, but I ended up getting the 983 E, which was like the exact opposite driver I should have gotten and, and complete buyers remorse didn't get fitted. I just like demoed it out of the Pro Shop. Like, oh, this feels good.

You know, he's like, you're a moron. Why would you get this driver? But it was always one of those things where, like, mom and dad were never really, they weren't golfers. And so they didn't really like, I don't know, they didn't. Like, so like our dad, I remember like, he's got kind of a one-track mind.

So he would go to, I don't know if it was Edwin Watts or there was this golf store out at an Alpharetta. And he went out and he bought like these, we called them the satellite dishes. They were like the biggest. Big Bertha X12s, because I played them for a while. And with the graphite chefs. My dad had the X18s.

I remember that. I mean, I think the iron was, it was like, they were so sick. It was like half an inch thick, the thing. And yeah, he had these graphite shafts in him. And then he had, you know, the biggest Big Bertha driver. And then, and I remember I played that for a while and it was like probably the worst possible,

like it was too long for me and it was the worst possible shaft and all of that stuff. So I kind of go back and I'm like, man, if, if, you know, club fitting wasn't really as big of a thing back then, but man, if I would have been fit properly into clubs, uh, not even new clubs, right? If it was just like, Hey, here's, here's a set of, you know, like I played a, I played a set of nine 62, uh, from Chris Marsh, our next door neighbor gave me his set of nine. I had a set of 9.62 from Chris Marsh, our next door neighbor, gave me a set of 9. I had a set of Tommy armor, which he passed out in me 8.95. Yeah.

And then I had the, you know, 9.62s, but I had a 9.94 iron. I didn't have the 9.62 four iron for whatever reason. I always really liked the four iron. It was a lot more forgiving and just a much better golf club, which, you know, man, like it was, it was, you know, came out four years later. Uh, you know, of course it was, but, um, yeah, I don't know. Long story short, I'm rambling like crazy here, but I think overall it was just like got into Atlanta junior golf and it was so cool to like get the, get the schedule at

the beginning of the summer or like in April and be like, Oh my gosh, I could go play a tournament at Atlanta athletic club, or I could go play a tournament at this Muni that I've never heard of. Or like really most of the state was included and it would be tournaments on Mondays and Tuesdays primarily. It was 18 whole tournaments and yeah, I mean, just kind of I was hooked and then started playing southeastern junior golf. And yeah, so that was kind of how I got into it.

It was like, I don't know, it was just even a way to explore different parts of Atlanta that I'd never been to or different parts of the state. Well, this is kind of flashing forward and obviously we'll jump around all over the place, but I want to go back to your, cause I was in the exact same boat, never really had lessons, never had my own clubs like for me until I think until like we did our first Callaway deal. I think it was the first time I actually got like clubs that were fit to me. And as a result, I always have like a very weird relationship with instruction. I find instruction incredibly difficult now. I overthink things. I just have played my best golf when I'm playing extremely naturally. I'm curious if you are the same way because of how you

grew up. Yeah. I have a tough time sticking to a... I think there's stuff that people can point out and I'm like, oh yeah, that's clearly something to work on. But it's never been like I'm going to rebuild your swing in this mold or I'm going to figure out how to, you know, how to get you to these positions, I guess. So I've always kind of had that it's less now, but kind of over the top, compress the ball. I played a tight draw back in the day. It's funny, like I played a, I had a 53 degree gap wedge and a 56 degree sand wedge.

I've never had a lob wedge. Those two clubs I played radically differently. Like there were only three degrees of loft different. And I think I would play wildly different shots with each of those clubs. It was like Neil had this, this Ram, 55 degree or 55 degree. Yeah. It hit the grooves off of that thing. All of it, like hand me down stuff. Like, seriously shout out to Chris Marsh. Cause it wasn't from our dad.

It was from our next door neighbor. Yeah. And it was kind of one of those things where like, you know, I was like, I seriously, shout out to Chris Marsh. Cause it wasn't from our dad. It was from our next door neighbor. Yeah. Well, and it was kind of one of those things where like, even when we were playing junior golf, it was never like, like, man, we're going to do everything we can to make you the best golfer you can possibly be. It was always just like, yeah, just like, you know, roll the balls out and like figure it out kind of thing. Yeah. Good activity. I think my, I think Peg, our mom had a,

I think she kind of saw around the corner on like, I think this is a good life skill almost like learning the piano or something. Yeah. These guys are showing an interest in this. Like that seems like something that like important people do. Like maybe they should play golf. And I think there, yeah, I think there's something there with like, or like we would play golf in the morning and like go over and play tennis all afternoon

or go to the pool kind of thing and like entertain ourselves. But it was, it was always kind of one of those things of like our parents didn't give a shit whether we finished first or, you know, 20th. And it was more of just like, Hey, did you have fun today? Did you, you know, how was the course? Did you, did you feel like you improved? Like it was, I don't know. It was always just kind of one of was more just like, Hey, did you have fun today? Did you, you know, how was the course? Did you, did you feel like you improved? Like it was, I don't know, it was always just

kind of one of those things of like, yeah, of course, they wanted you to do well. But that was almost secondary for why we were out there. It was like, do you still love playing golf? I guess. That was true across most sports. So it was like, we're not trying to, they were never pushing us to get a scholarship on in anything. And maybe even when they did, like, like, I remember I had, I was playing pretty good golf, junior, like heading into junior year of high school, but

I was still playing football. And I remember mom and dad sitting me down and being like, Hey, do you want to, like, if you really put your mind to this, you could probably play in college. But, you know, you're not gonna play like d1 golf. Like, you could probably go play in at a college, but you're not going to play like D1 golf. You could probably go play at a college, not the college that you want to go play at. And I was like, ah, I think I'm good. I don't want to go out and hang out on the range by myself while all my buddies are at football practice. I kind of showed up at football and I was like, yeah, I'm a golfer, but I'm

playing football today. And I showed up at golf up at football and I was like, yeah, I'm a golfer, but I'm playing football today. And I showed up at golf, you know, in, you know, late January. And I was like, oh yeah, like I'm knocking off some rust. And that was kind of how, how it went during high school golf season too. Like I would be the five or this, you know, five, six, seven or eight player in February. And I'd be the four play, you know, three or four player. And then the rat would find the cheese by regionals. Well, I definitely have some specific high school golf questions because I have known

both of you for a very long time now. And I've heard enough tell of the legendary rounds of, you know, hitting 18 greens, shooting 77, things like that. So I kind of want to hear that from like both of your perspectives, like whoever, you know, I know you're kind of outside the ropes, so to speak. And I want to know what it was like for you too. So whoever wants to go first. Well, one thing I want to add just to, I don't know, sum up how TC was definitely into golf though. Like you were always down, you were always cleaning your clubs the night before tournaments. And like, like what you were saying about like you,

you cherished your three wood, much more so than I did. I don't I wouldn't call you a gear head, but you were kind of into the meditative aspect of the details. Yeah, details. Like being a golfer. Yeah, it's like, man, like, I like taking pride in the whole experience. Yeah. Totally. I think Dej, I mean, you know, I was always a

good ball striker. I think some of, I mean, you know, I was always a good ball striker. I think some of it was like, I didn't, maybe I didn't know how to read greens or I didn't know, I didn't know how to get the ball in the hole, man. Which is kind of why I was laughing when you were describing like, yeah, I used to go play all this putt putt, man. It was so great. That's really what got me hooked. I was like, yeah, but don't you suck at putting like what I mean, imagine once you were like, once you're like, oh man, there's like this whole other element to the game. Like that, that seems like it would have been what hooked you, right?

Like, I think part of it was putting all this putting stuff. You take that away. I just, I'm in on this ball striking stuff. I don't look at the ball when I hit, when I make contact, my head's out in front. So I think that's always kind of messed with me when I chip and putt because it's a different, you know, like I'm looking at the ball. Um, but yeah, I was always just like really good at driving the ball. Even when I had like junior clubs and you know, I

was just, yeah, I could just drive the ball that was, and then kind of, I will tip the high school golf stuff. I think there's a couple of things as an, uh, you know, your younger brother observing this, you're one of your best friends with Brett Lang, who was like the dude, right? He was the number one guy on the team played at Vanderbilt made the US open our first qualifier when it was at

Shinnecock in 2008. Like, say again, or sorry, oh, four, oh, four, sorry. And I feel like you guys were really tight and I, I feel like it kind of that like, you know, you are the people you hang out with. Like I think your game elevated as you got it later into high school and started, you know, you and Brett were spent on like a lot more time together. I think you kind of saw like, and his game was, you guys had similar games. I mean, he was better than you, but like, he was just the most better version of my game. You guys, he just made a million pars. He hit every fairway and TC kind of had the same thing going on. He had similar games. I mean, he was better than you, but like, he was just the most better version of my game. You guys, he just made a million pars. He hit every fairway and TC kind of had

the same thing going on. He was just like, methodical when I would go out and watch with my dad, I watched, I remember two tournaments. And you did hit every freaking, it was automatic off the tee. It was always so boring. And then you had that stupid like Futura putter, and you just would miss every 12 footer and every... No, I got the Futura putter because I was missing every 12 footer with like the Odyssey, you know, number one that I had. And then, you know, and it was just one of those things where like, I don't even think I was a bad putter. I just didn't know how to putt, if that makes sense.

Well, they just didn't go in. Like it never looked bad. It was just like, everybody expected you to miss it. And I think you were included. My dad and I were just like, God, he missed another one. You know? What's the mental approach? Is that how you're feeling? Well, there was a, yeah, well, I don't know. It was just kind of one of those things where like maybe there was one summer where I think I was maybe in like eighth grade where like I'd never broken it. I don't think I'd ever, maybe it was going into seventh grade like eighth grade where like I'd never broken eight. I don't think I'd ever, maybe it was going into seventh grade or eighth grade. I'd never like broken like 88 before.

Then I went out and like I shot 87 like four rounds in a row. And I would just go like, I would go walk by myself or I would go walk with one of the other juniors up at Dunwoody or even like one of the, like I would just play, I would play with whoever. Right. Uh, there was a dude, Major Snow I used to walk with all the time, Larry Steelman, all these guys. I would just play with whoever. There was a dude, Major Snow, I used to walk with all the time, Larry Steelman. I would just go walk with all these. It didn't matter if you were 30, 50, 70, whatever, or I'd play by myself. I shot 88, and I shot 87 four times in a row. Then I shot 86.

The next time I shot 85. And then I shot 84. And I was stuck at 84 for forever. And then one day I just like went out and I shot, I shot 35 on the front nine. I birded the first two holes and I was like chipped in on the second hole. I just don't remember that. I was terrified. I was like, Oh my God, this is crazy. I shot 41 coming in.

I shot 76. I was like, Oh my God, like that's, that's crazy. But I've just never been able to, I never made a bunch of birdies. It was always just almost like it felt like the forbidden fruit or it felt like I wasn't supposed to make birdies. You're supposed to make pars and birdies were like an exceptional thing. And so I always just kind of hit them, you know, hit the middle of greens or like, yeah, I would just, I would hit a lot of fairways. And then, and so I, back then it was weird. Like I didn't really know how to scramble.

And now it's the opposite. Now I feel like I know how to get up and down, or I know how to be gritty or miss on the right side. I think a lot of it just came down to like course management too. Like I never had to be a good course manager because I was hitting so many fairways. I legitimately, I don't mean this even facetiously.

I don't think I realized course management was a thing until I was like 27 years old. There was no high school golf coach who was like, hey man, if you like, why don't you just not aim at the flag and I think you're gonna shoot lower scores. Nobody ever told me that. I truly was just trying to hole every shot. Wait, wait, wait, I don't have to swing as hard as I can on the tee shot.

What? I have driver in my hands. Aren't I supposed to hit it as far as I possibly can? Yeah. Huh? I never thought about that. Yeah. No, it's very much same boat. And that's where it's like we were talking about the other day. It's like, man, if you could go back to, you know, when you're in sixth grade, fifth grade, whatever, like, God, think about how much better of a golfer you'd be. And it's almost that's the biggest lesson to me almost is like,

if you're teaching a kid after you teach them kind of like, Hey man, here's a driver swing away, hit it as hard as you can. We'll figure out where it goes later. And you know, you kind of get them used to hitting the ball and having fun after that. It's like, all right, let's learn how to actually like play golf because nobody ever taught me that until I was way too old for that matter. You know, like I learned how to, I don't know, I just never learned how to play golf or how

to like the right way, I guess. And then I think something else that I struggle with, this is going to sound, I don't know, just like I'm a total dipshit, but please. I didn't, my game didn't travel all that well for a while too, where I really struggled on like Muni courses. Or if the greens weren't really smooth and fast, I truly didn't know how to putt. Like I got used to playing on really, really fast bent greens at Dunwoody. And so, you know, shorter stroke and you just kind of, you're playing the ball off of slopes and you're, you're man. Like when I went out there and I had to really get the ball to the hole, like focus on pace and all that, I just didn't, I would get totally, totally lost or I didn't know how to jam the ball in the back of the hole

and just get it in. I was, I would baby it around on the greens. That was one thing. I mean, Neil, I still remember, I don't know if you were at this one, but like, there was a high school tournament up at, um, I think this was junior year up at, I think it was fields, fairy up in Calhoun. And I think I hit like, I think I hit 17 greens. I think that's the event I was at. I think, yeah. And like, I think you and dad like walked off after like 13. No, no, we walked the whole round with you and it was just like, dude, we were like, you know, it was like the reaction Randy was getting in that Michelle we Pebble Beach video of like, by the end of the round,

we were like on the ground, like, no, you gotta make that. It's a five footer. Gotta make that one. Come on. And like, I could have shot 67. I mean, I should have shot 67, like ball striking average putting day. And there was like same thing would happen in God in the region. My senior year, like it was pouring rain on the front

nine. And I ended up, you know, like Brian Jackson was playing ahead of me. He was like, man, I looked back. I was like, he's got to be at least four under like, and I think I shot like 38 on the front. like, and I think I shot like 38 on the front. I hit, I hit two flagsticks from like 175 yards out. Like that's how good I was hitting my irons and I just couldn't get the ball in the hole. I was just, I was just two-pot everything. Well, I mean, there were times these were like, I, I made like 28 pars in a row one time across two rounds. Just like, just, just couldn't make birdies. I couldn't score on par, par fives, which was crazy. Cause I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood.

I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. I was like, I'm going to go with the three wood. kind of like mental hurdle of birdie putts, which again, like is the most universal feeling ever, right? As much as you want to.

It never became routine for me at a young age. And that, so TC, we have a similarity there. They always felt like an event and they still kind of do. That's part of the problem. Yeah, it was like building up in myself. I was like, oh man, birdie putt, okay, cool. I psyched myself out. You better do everything differently.

But the different part, I'm just trying to make pars, so I'm just lag putting everything. The difference between you and me though is you had so many more fucking birdie looks than I ever did, you know, in high school, like you were hitting so many more greens. So that's the, that's I guess the only disconnect, which again is like, I don't know, kids, kids golf on the brain for obvious reasons, but that's when you start looking at the tiger par stuff and like the stuff that Earl Woods would do with Tiger where he's like, Hey man, we're, we're, we're going to you start looking at the tiger par stuff and like the stuff that Earl Woods would do with tiger, where he's like, Hey man, we're, we're, we're

going to set a tiger par for you today, which is basically like the handicap system, but just constantly telling him like, even though this putts for six, like this is a birdie putt, you know, and just getting him used to being three years old and just making seven birdies around is yeah, that's gotta, that's gotta have a pretty good positive snowball effect as you become old, old, wistful men like us. It's just like freak out. Every time I guess, like I wasn't just self-taught. I was self-directed as well. Yeah. That makes sense. Totally. Where, yeah, like it's like, Hey, or going back, like I wish I could go back and like, like I practiced a lot and I played even more. I like to play a lot and I played, like I wish I could go back and like, like I practiced a lot and I played

even more. I like to play a lot and I played, I played and I played just practice on the golf course. But like, I wish I knew how to practice. A hundred percent. That's exactly what I was going to say. I hit a lot of balls. I hit a lot of balls, but I didn't practice. Was I ingraining the wrong shit? Right. Yeah, exactly. Potentially solving the riddle. I also remember you did not like practicing your putting. So part of this too. DC loved to bang balls though.

Loved it. Hit ball. Watch me at this six iron. Watch how, watch how many six iron general I could hit. All right. T.C. Let me, let me change gears here. What's a goal in golf that would make you the happiest to achieve? Like getting out of the past, maybe looking forward. I mean, this is where when I saw that question on the agenda, my mind immediately went to, I want to play every original Alistair McKenzie course in the world. It's not like, hey, I want to go shoot 68. It's like, no, I want to go, you know, I want to go see

these places. Like that's for me, even, you know, I want to go see these places. Like that's for me, even, you know, like I talked about it earlier, like with Atlanta Junior Golf, like I remember sitting down with mom in the dining room and being like, all right, like you could, you like, you're almost entering a lottery. Like you're going to their kind of orientation thing and you would go to the, the rules seminar. Talk about the rules of the, the rug of the green. I think her name was beans straight up. I think that was the rules and ladies name if I remember correctly. And, uh, yeah. And it'd be like, you know, etiquette and how to play and you know, she throws slides up. It'd be like, there'd be like a Volkswagen

beetle in the bunker and there were golf ball behind it. Like what's, what's the ruling? She's like, test the room. What's the ruling here? Do you have to hit it over? Do you get relief from this? You know? And then, you know, it'd be like multiple choices and be like that. And one of the options would be rubber the green. It's like, yep, that's the rubber the green. You got to play it as it lies. Yeah. So maybe that was where my, my disdain for TIO comes from too, Neil. Exactly. But like, there was always that, that sense of like, man, like how do I want to set up the schedule? Like which, what do I value? Which ones do I want to play? Do I

want to play the places that I think I'm going to play well at or do I want to see new courses and use this as an opportunity to go play, you know, some cool private courses that I otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to play. So that still rings true today of like, hey, how can I go to this part of the world that I've never been before and use golf as the medium through which to do that? Or yeah, I mean, I don't know. There's stuff that I think I just like seeing new stuff, I guess. And I like, because that for me is the magic of golf. It's a big field with, they're putting shit in the way between you and the hole and lakes

and bunkers and mounds and ridges and all sorts of stuff. You're playing through and up and over stuff. To me, that's the rusticity of it, I guess is, is, you know, the imagination and the creativity of golf, I think is like, oh my gosh, like there's, there's no two golf courses in the world that are, that are the same. And I think there's, there's too many that are similar and I want to go see the stuff that's really different. You seem like you don't, I mean, this is kind of speaks to your answer, but you don't get real hung up on score or how you played or that kind of

stuff. When did that balloon pop for you? Or when did that like go away? So after I kept playing during college, like I wouldn't play seriously, but like I still had the expectations that I had from when I was in high school of like, Oh, like I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to go out and shoot. Hey, like I'm trying to shoot even par every day, basically, which maybe that was my problem. Like I wasn't going out and trying to shoot 68. But I think after college, I came back to Atlanta, you know, didn't belong anywhere. There's no good public golf. There's not a lot of good public golf courses. There's

a place called Echelon, a place called a Chasta. Just find places around the city to play. You have to hop in your car. I played at Chastain at North Fulton a lot, but you have to hop in your car and go either fight a really slow round of golf somewhere or fight traffic to go somewhere where there's openings. But I remember putting too much pressure on myself. Every time I went out, I was going out to shoot a score or to recapture this form that I had in the past. And it was just kind of joyless.

So I just kind of quit for three or four years, just kind had in the past. And it was just kind of joyless. So I just kind of quit for like three or four years. Just kind of stopped playing golf. And that was probably 2009 or 2010 to probably 2013, 2014. And then, yeah, then I kind of, like I would just go fish instead. Or I would just go do other stuff and I would go fly fish. Or, you know, I would just go do other stuff and, and I would go fly fish. And then between no laying up, between going up to Sweden's Cove, like starting to go up there and figure out like, oh my gosh, like architecture, right?

Like that was kind of- How did Sweden's get on your radar for the first time? A few guys on Twitter just like, you know, hey, you should come check this place out. Went up there, met Patrick Boyd and, and, uh, yeah, there was actually, yeah, there was this dude, Dylan Mays, who was a complete Twitter creature. And I don't know what was true and what wasn't, I guess, or, or he was kind of a, into tall tales or into- He was a great host though. Yeah. But he was like, really like- He brought me up too. And we got,

we had a blast. Yeah. And like, we're the only people on the golf course. And he was just like, it's truly like, holy shit. Like, like, I don't, I like, I didn't really know like why I liked it. Even it was like, this is different. This is awesome. This is never seen stuff like this before. Like I'd never been to, you know, I'd never really played other than, you know, playing some to, you know, I'd never really played other than, you know, playing some decent stuff around Atlanta or like play East Lake a few times. Like it's just really other than like Muirfield village. I played there a couple of times with our uncle, Springfield country club with Neil. And I think we got into a fist fight out there one time where it's Springfield, but like, you know, going to those courses and being like,

oh, like these are different, but not really understanding why or what made them. I just didn't know. Monk and airport and Cincinnati. Bring up a good point, TC, which I actually find true when you talk to some pro golfers, it almost feels like if you played competitive golf as a kid or maybe, I don't know,

I'm gonna test this take out on you guys. You did, and we never once went on a golf trip as kids. Like what you're saying you just the only time like Southeastern Junior golf went to like Tybee Island to play. You know, you were playing an event down there. But like traveling. Island one time we go to Grand National in Alabama. Yeah. But you'd never like, and you talk to a lot of pros now. You're like, have you ever played in Scotland?

I'd say the majority of them say no. I've never, yeah, never, unless they played in the open championship. That's almost like a diversion or a distraction from chasing down your goals. But it's also something where like, maybe it was just, I would say probably the closest thing I ever had to like a golf mentor was our next door neighbor,

Chris Marsh. Like I would like skip school sometimes and, you know, seventh or eighth grade or high school, like go play, you know, go play a money game with like some dudes that he was entertaining, like he was in the software sales business and he'd like, you know, bring me out and like, you know,

we would go like, you know, just play like business golf basically. So it was always, but know, we would go like, you know, just play like business golf, basically. So it was always but like, but on that note, I never really actually like had a mentor in it either, or like a guide. It was always just like, you know, kind of finding my own way through it, which I don't know, I think was cool. Like, I don't think that's like a failure of mom and dad, it was just kind of one of those things like they just weren't really golfers. It's interesting to hear you say how much like the experience of golf with this achievement question because I'm the I'm the opposite. I'm almost like I didn't really get the

competitive. You know, I only played competitive golf through like, you know, eighth grade, ninth grade. So for me, it's like, man, this is like a competitive outlet for me in my in my and that's not to say that that's not there, but it's just, that's not as big a part of it. Like I still, you know, like I love building around, you know, like I love feeling like I've maxed something out or I, you know, I played as well as I possibly could have, or I saved shots here or there. I don't know. Maybe I've just kind of shut that part down because that was when I stopped enjoying golf. And when I really

started enjoying it more was when a double on the second hole wouldn't derail my day or wouldn't, you know, like, oh my gosh. And then you start playing with joy and you start making more birdies and that double becomes less meaningful. And so when I'm taking that approach of, hey, I'm out here and really enjoying the walk and walking around with your head up and noticing the architecture, what makes a golf course different or unique, like seeking that stuff out, then I start playing better golf, then and there too. So yeah, DJ, I think to your, you know, to your question, I think there's probably like my relationship with golf is like the more, you know, I like to keep score. Like I still, you know, I like to measure progress and all of that stuff. Like I like to play

good golf, but it's just a matter of keeping that in proportion of like when I go on a trip, like when, when Dan Horner and I went to Scotland last summer, like there's some days where like, man, you know what, like rock up at Western gales and like, I want to shoot a good score. I think I shot 72 out there and like, it was blowing 30. Like that felt like, man, like I accomplished something today. And then the next day we went out to this place, you know, Irvin, that was like really weird, cool course that, you know, it was kind of in scruffy condition. I was like, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to you guys describe it. I feel like I kind of get stuck sometimes between the two things that you're describing where on one day I can feel much more like UTC and I'm just, I'm here to look at the trees and I'm here to notice why they put this bunker there instead of there. And then on the next day, Neil, I can feel like you where it's like, man, I'm trying to, I'm working towards a handicap goal for the whole year. And this is a rep and I need to, I can't waste any opportunity. And I just end up feeling very stuck in the middle. So again, it's like, every round's better for me when I play better, you know, I can still enjoy it when I don't play well, but it's, you know, I'm, I'm,

I'm usually there to compete with myself, but I appreciate deeply TC's perspective on it. Well, the other thing too, is I like to, even if it's, you can draw certain things out at different times of the round too. Or even if you're not having a great round, man, like when you, when you rock up to, you know, the fifth tee at Royal Melbourne West, or you rock up to the 17th hole at, at, you know, at Royal Melbourne West or, or, you know, like we're playing the 10th hole at Jockey Club or, you know, just, Hey, I know like, like the sixth hole at this place, La Cumbra that we just played on an Argentina. Like it's a 66 yard par three.

It was a 12th hole there. And it's like, Holy shit. Like this is, this is why I got on that plane and flew four or 5,000 miles to come down here and hit this shot. And I'm going to lock in and I'm going to do it. And then you start getting to that place, the road hole, right? Or trying to make a birdie on the 18th hole at the old course, regardless of what happened in that round prior. It could have had a great day, it could have had a not great day. You can leave on a good note and almost getting competitive in certain moments of the round or even let's say you're

having a match. I don't know. I just love trying to win. Not necessarily. It doesn't have to be me shooting a great score or even, hey, you know what? I'm not going to get frustrated. I didn't play well these first eight holes, but I'm going to climb my way back in this match. well, these first eight holes, but I'm going to climb my way back in this, in this match, you know? But I think it's a funny illustration of, you know, we had like a, what would you ask the genie for question on here? And it's funny that like a lot of people would have very performance based answers, right? Like I would rather, I need to improve, I need to get rid of the two way miss so that I can improve my scoring average for the year or whatever.

But I'm guessing yours would probably be something more like experience-based. No, I just put chipping. Don't leave the witness Dej. That's fair. That's fair. Yeah. No, I mean that like the genie thing, like we did that a little bit with Greg Rose and some of that's on like, you know, I've got the genie. I just got to like actually listen to the genie. Well, it's funny. The chipping stuff's funny. You said it to Dr. Greg, like Max Homa got a little upset with you. Like, dude, he told you the same thing I told you like four years ago. It's like, yeah, but Max, you got to tell me like every, yeah, like five days. I'm just going to forget about it. Yeah. And it's truly one of those things of like, cause that seeps into the rest of my game of like, if I, I don't know, I start playing defense, right? Where I think that's part of the thing of like, didn I, I don't know, I start playing defense, right? Where I think

that's part of the thing of like, didn't make a bunch of birdies growing up. I like, I make a lot more birdies now. And I think I'm a better golfer now. I understand the golf swing better. I understand contact and shot shapes and just how to, you know, how to get around the golf course more. But I think I was just very raw back then. But I think even today, some of that mentality of like, you know, I just feel like if I'm not chipping it well, I start, you know, I start playing in the middle of the greens. I just start playing that same style of golf I played growing up of, man, I got to hit every fairway and every green to play a good round of golf today. Whereas, you know, knowing like, and I've gotten over that hump a few times, and sometimes

it's in unexpected spots or a lot of the time it is when like I've, when I've gone, you know, three, four, five under par and like that's been when I'm, when I don't have expectations that day. And I just start playing offense and pin my ears back and don't worry about the downside risk or, hey, what happens if I don't pull the shot off? Well, then pull the next one off. It's a hard place.

Yeah, the chipping thing is definitely there. I think some of that stems from like just growing up on, I was just never a good chipper and growing up on Bermuda and living here in Florida. Like it's just not an easy surface to chip off of with, you know, just tight, wet, grainy Bermuda. I think the audience is going to be disappointed that your one achievement was that you're not making,

is it six birdies in a row more often? It was five, right? Five birdies in a row more often. Maybe the best thing I ever read into the record for the Trap Draw Goals podcast. I need to make five birdies in a row more often. I think I've only done it more often. I think I've done it twice in my life. So again, just more often. Increasing regularity. Yeah. What would you, from a golf course architecture perspective, what is the biggest difference between yourself now and yourself in high school?

Or what would you tell yourself in high school to kind of change their mind on stuff? Golf course architecture? Yeah. I don't think I knew anything. Like I knew, I don't know, I kind of knew what I liked, but I don't think I knew why I liked it.

I just hadn't seen anything, right? It was just a matter of, like I don't think you have to of knew what I liked, but I don't think I knew why I liked it. I just hadn't seen anything. Right. It was, it was just a matter of, like, I don't think you have to go see a bunch of like, you know, top 100 golf courses. There's all sorts of like, you know, good architecture that's, you know, it was just a matter of like, understanding, oh, like what the full spectrum of things even is. Right. Well, I think that's why Sweeten's is so special because it's so on the nose with some of these architectural concepts. It's like right in your face of like,

oh, I didn't know you could do this. It's like, yeah, well, some of these older guys were doing it a long time ago and you just never saw it kind of thing. Yeah, or like you've never played links golf before and you've played a bunch of Parkland tree lined stuff with long rough and bunkers as, as the defense. And it's like, all right, you know, or, Hey, they're, you know, 400 yard, 440 yard par fours, you know, and there's not a lot of variety. And it's just the, the

concept that golf can be fun and different and outside this box. Cause I think the box of growing up in Atlanta in the 90s and early 2000s was like, Oh man, like there's a bunch of shitty golf courses. So once you have to have houses on golf courses. Yeah, there was like it's good land. It's, but it's like, man, there's a bunch. Most of the stuff was built between like 1960 and 1995 or 2008. and everything was a real estate play. Everything was built, you know, like I think the guy that designed our course growing up, Willard Byrd, not a bad architect,

but like there just wasn't a lot of great design going on. The first thing was houses. Yeah. That was primary. Yeah. Not so much at DCC though. I think it's actually a rare example of like, it's not surrounded by houses. Even like Cherokee, Cherokee's not like, we played Cherokee, I played Cherokee 50 times. There's 36 holes over there,

Cherokee Town and Country Club in Atlanta. Tom Fazio did it in the early 90s. There's no houses on the course. I don't think out of 36 holes out there, I don't think I can remember more than two holes. And I have a pretty photographic memory for golf holes. And that's something that's changed a lot too of like played a ton of golf all over the state of Georgia growing up.

And I can't really remember that many holes. And then as soon as I started paying attention to architecture or paying attention to where I was playing and, you know, and that being the reason for why I was out there, I can remember most holes of most golf courses I've played since 2010 or so. That's flip for me too, TC. I don't know, maybe because we're, we're talking about golf a lot more. You're, you're You're almost looking for ammo at this point. For sure. Something else too was when we moved to Boston. It was the same thing that I was saying,

you don't have to go play a bunch of top 100 golf courses. I went out and played this course called Red Tail out there that Brian Silva did. There was a place called Shining Rock, Shaker Hills. George Wright. Brian Silva's stuff that's like, yeah, George Wright. So there's the Silva stuff that's like, yeah, George Wright. Oh, well that was, so there's the Silva stuff that's like new, new age spin on like classic templates and designs and stuff. Which I didn't even really know what those were at the time. I was like, man, this is dope. And then, you know, and then going and playing Sandy Burr or George Wright or South Shore

Country Club was a styles of Van Cleek, I think. Like they're just seeing different old school New England stuff. George Wright or South Shore Country Club was a styles of Van Cleek, I think. They're just seeing different old school New England stuff. I remember I went up and played myopia in the New England PGA did like a cool series where you could go play different private clubs and stuff. So kind of seeing, oh my God, like this is like Springfield Country Club. This is like the stuff that I really like. And then I just, then I was hooked. Like when I started playing that stuff, it was like, holy, holy moly. This is seeing the world in color.

What was your process for like educating yourself or learning more about all of the architects and trends and eras and all of that stuff? I bought Tom, I bought the confidential guide. That was one of them. Like Tom Dookes, I got all four things of those anatomy of a golf course, hanging out on like golf club Atlas, even just Google Earth, like just, but yeah, that was kind of and then just going and seeing stuff and playing stuff

and talking to people like, you know, whether it's Wolfie or shot, you know, reading some of Shackleford's books, like Zach was awesome for me of like getting to know him. Zach Blair. Yeah. 2017, 2018, like kind of on the, when I really started getting into this stuff, cause it's not like, I guess that's part of it is like, I've never, I was never into architecture prior to, you know, maybe 20, like really till, till I played Sweeten's Cove and realizing like, holy shit, there's just all sorts of different stuff

out there or realizing that looking back on like, like Neil and I watched a lot of golf on TV growing up. Like our parents weren't huge golfers per se, we always watched golf on Saturdays and Sundays. We always, especially, CBS or Florida swing or West coast swing or whatever, we always watched golf. Maybe that was the tiger effect where we would play like, man, when tiger played colonial and playing against Sergio or there's just going back to those days, I think there's very much a, now looking back, I realize why

I liked certain tournaments and I didn't like certain tournaments as much. What about certain players? Non-tiger division. I mean, who was like your guy? Spencer Levine. I mean, truly, like he's like my favorite. Are you serious? Favorite golfer of all time, Spencer Levine. Well, that's, but that's like post college. Like what about growing up? Cause you're like the same age as Spencer. I mean, that can't work here. Spencer's 40, but Neil, you talk about that 2004 US open at Shinnecock. Dude, that is like, Brett was the first alternate for that. I never put two and two together on Brett being an alternate there and Spencer just balling out. I truly think if Brett got into the field, he would have like made the cut.

And if you're a cat and played in like, I don't know, 18, like he had had surgery, Duvall hadn't played in like two or three years. Yeah, Duvall didn't withdraw. Nobody withdrew and Brett's just sitting there at the end of the range with a dick in his hand. I can't even go play a practice round. But then one of them withdrew after like three holes.

That's what really stung. Yeah. And, but like that was this, that was just the sickest tournament just in general too. Like the carnage on 10 and 11. They lost the golf course. That was like Mike Davis. It was just fucking awesome. That was a very TC coded US Open. That was radicalizing a young TC. All right. But that's your senior year. That's 2004. You got to give us something. I know. And then there's all these stories about like him getting into a fist fights with his dad on the court. And it was just like, that just wasn't my experience growing up of like having a, you know, overbearing parent that was like trying to get the most

out of you. That was the opposite of my experience. Right. Um, and then just watching him, like in the early days of knowing up, like when he played, like he turned pro and then he almost won it at, you know, like the week after Kyle Stanley choked it away at Torrey Pines, you know, Spencer's got like a six shot lead going to the final round at Phoenix and he loses and just, but it was like, you know, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm and now it's like, no, it's like deeply psychological. Like he's, he's like, oh, he's great. Like I like golf courses that feel like they're greater than some of their parts. And I like golfers that feel like they're greater than some of their parts. We're like, who else is on that list? Postman. Yeah. JT Poston's up there for sure. Uh, it's just guys that like, man, like they got, they really got to dig deep to go win. But like the fact that that's possible. Right. And I don't know, they're just, they're getting through on guts and guile and all that. Weirdly, like I always liked Kenny Perry growing up.

Talk about a guy that made a ton of birdies. A ton of birdies, but like, because he was an excellent, excellent ball striker. Yeah. I still remember when Kenny Perry didn't go to the British. He was like qualified for the British opening. He was like, yeah, I'm just not going to go wild. Woody Austin would be another one that fits in that mold. What? Seriously.

What are we talking about? Just like fucking characters, man. I liked Rich Beam when he kind of, you know, Johnny Miller was up there. Like I always liked Johnny as a player kind of like looking back on his career. Dustin Johnson, of course, was up there. Maybe somebody that didn't squeeze everything out, but like, it might be the opposite. It might be like, no, you got all the tools, man. You just, whether you want to use them this week or not, I guess it's kind of up to you. I mean, Ty, I was a tiger guy, love tiger, you know, who didn't like, let's say he didn't. But then like, I don't know, I liked Phil too. Like I just, you know,

it was, or there's certain guys that I've kind of done an about face on where like I hated them growing up and now I love like Monty. Yeah. Like Neil and I fucking hated Monty. I know. That's one of those that I'm like, God, if I only knew what I do now when I was a kid, I would be the biggest Monty guy ever. Yeah. Or I feel like, I don't know, I feel like I would have thrived as a fan like in the set, like late seventies and the eighties, like Ray Floyd, weirdly, I'm always, he's a nervous ball of energy and everything, but the way that he plays golf, Billy Horschel

for sure. I always thought that like Billy Horschel, if I, if when I was 14 years old and I had all the persistence and grit and determination in the world and put everything in my being behind it, which like I didn't even get 5% of the way there with that. Like Billy Horschel would have been like my absolute, that would have been like my final form if everything broke right. You know, just the way that he plays and, you know, even just physical, you know, physical stature. Like it's just very similar player. I think it's just a matter of like, man, is the putter going to get hot? Like he's always kind of like, he's always in play. He's

always hitting his irons pretty well. Even looking way back, like Ray Floyd. Like, man, I just, I like guys. Like I would have been a huge Arnie guy if I would have been, you know, back in the day. Didn't necessarily jive with my game, right? Of like hitting a bunch of fairways and stuff. You know, Henry Cotton speaks to me, dude. Sure. Of course.

James Brady. I don't know. I like guys that are just like, that have flair and character and Hagen kind of playboys off the course and you know, Tom Simpson, shit like that. I don't know. Well Dej, we've got to save enough time for the main event. I know. You read my mind. I feel like we got to do a couple of 10 round splits. Let's warm up. Let's get in the warmup pool a little bit. Dej, I was going to say a couple of least favorite golfers of all time.

Yeah. Cause that was on the list too. Like Zach Johnson straight. And like Neil can speak to that. Like Zach, he's never, when did that start? Did that start with like the masters? Started when he won the fucking Bell South classic. Oh sure. I forgot even closer to him. It was like Ben Crane and Zach Johnson. They just won the Bell South. I was like, what? That's, I don't, I just, don't like the swing. Don't like what he's, what he's got going on, which is interesting. Cause Zach Johnson, they just won the Bell South. I was like, what? That's I don't know. I just don't like the swing. Don't like what he's got going on, which is interesting

because Zach Johnson seems like what you created this part. Exactly. Yeah. That's why we all loved him when we were growing up. Just like, see, that guy can do it, man. He doesn't have anything you don't have. You just got to work hard.

But I don't know, all of his little. Yeah, I don't know why the Billy stuff resonates with me versus Zach's brand of being anal and, you know, like the Zach Johnson, Mike Weir brand of being anal and meticulous and all that doesn't resonate with me. It might just be cheese related. Yeah, like maybe it's because like Billy's always dressed really well. Yeah. Zach hasn't.

Yeah. Jeff Maggert would be up there as well. Really? Yeah. Anytime Jeff Maggert was on a leaderboard like Neil, my dad, even my mom, like all of us just be like, God, this is well, yeah. Because he bought out of the board championship at East Lake a couple of times. You know, he was kind of always just like, he was good.

He just wasn't exciting. Sure. He's like never even like there was just no emotion whatsoever. T.C. I feel like I remember you being a big Hal Sutton guy. Was I? I don't. I feel like you were. How was making that up?

That doesn't ring a bell. And guys, I would say we're getting close there with Tom Kim. As far as like him being just fake juice, like just least favorite of all time. We're monitoring that. All right. Well, one game that we love, Lorena Ochoa on the positive side. She was great. She was great. I was like, God. No, no. She was awesome. Like the quiet confidence in the way she did things on her own terms.

And then just walked away at like the top of the game. That's a, that's kind of one of those not enough people talk about segments waiting to happen there. That was right when I was getting really, really into golf and she was great when I was trying to learn what greatness was kind of thing. All right. Well, let's move on because we want to leave plenty of time for the main event, as you said, Neil. Before we get there, let's do a little, we like to play the 10 round split game. So we're just going to throw out a couple courses. This is one of your favorites, I know. How would you split up 10 rounds between these two courses? Neil, you want to go first or you want to just each throw one out? I'll go first. Sandhills versus abandoned trails. God, knew you were going to ask me that. I knew I should have called on Neil.

Probably go seven, 73 Sandhills. Wow. You reference trails more than any other course on the planet. I think he said it might be the sand hills is like the best public golf course in the country. The band and trails doesn't exist if not for sand sand hills. Well said. The Shinnecock versus national.

Is it just the round of golf? It's a great question. No, we're throwing the whole day. Well, like are we going to shinnokock in the morning and then we can go do the whole deal at national as well? No, no, you have to play both separate days at separate courses separate days. Okay, you can only go to one property once per day.

You get 10 days. 10. Okay. I probably go to one property once per day. You get 10 days. 10, OK. I probably go 64 national. I would I think I'd ride with you on that TC. All right, I got Fishers Island versus Hoopy Match Club. Man, I really, really like a Hoopy. I'm going to go 9-1 Fishers. Wow. Whoa. Fishers. Wow. Oh, like Fishers is like one of my, one

of my favorite golf courses in the world. Like I would drop everything I'm doing right now to go play fishers and fly like it's two flights. You got to hop on a boat. Like it's not easy to get to and I love it. It's awesome. Like I'm so grateful to Zach for Zach's taking me there twice. I think, and I've been with Eric Stapanian from Flyers Club once before too. And it's, it's a special, special day. There's something intoxicating about getting on a boat to go to the golf course. And then the golf course is just like 17 of the 18 holes are on the water.

And it's incredible. I'm trying to, I'm trying to decide whether to give you something to really speak to one of your platforms or if I should just make you rive in one here. I'll give you, let's do a rive. Let's do Tara Eady versus the Royal Melbourne composite course. Well, I haven't played the composite. Okay. I can only imagine what the composite would be. We'll do it. We'll say the West course then. Okay. Oh, God. I mean you're getting to the heart of like my top 10 list there.

I think it's probably five, five, man. That's, I mean, what better, what better compliment? How about that? All right. Last one for me, TC. I'm going to go crystal downs versus the jockey club. Very different courses. Cause crystal downs is like not an easy walk. Jockey clubs, like the easiest walk you could possibly have. I'm just trying to make you, you know, just trying to get your McKenzie doctor. Or I was going to say like crystal downs versus Prairie

Dunes would be a really interesting one too. I think crystal downs versus jockey I'd say probably like seven, three crystal downs. Okay. Okay. I'm trying to wait. I have a compliment to jockey because you know, I don't know, jockey. I really like flat golf courses. Yeah. Like you can kind

of see it was really interesting to see in like what Mackenzie did. Like every Mackenzie course I've played has great, great land and see what he did on a dead flat piece of property was really fascinating. All right. We haven't done anything in Scotland yet. Let's do, we were just talking about this here. Let's do Dunbar versus North Berwick. I'm going six, four Dunbar. Okay, honestly, I was worried you were gonna maybe the gap would be even bigger. No, North Berwick's great.

I just, you know, I just don't, I don't know. I just think there's other places in Scotland that speak to me more than North Berwick. Sure. All right, Neil, a quick break in the action. Why don't you tell us what's going on at NoLayingUp? What should the people know right now? That's right. The call is coming from inside the house.

I have three things to keep track of. First, weekly digest. Sign up for our email newsletter. You can go to newsletter.nolayingup.com. We have the wider newsletter that goes out every Thursday or Friday. But we also have a weekly digest, which is kind of a roundup of all the NLU stuff going on with some, uh, I don't know, original content in there too, like best Slack comment of the week. DG, you're usually a leader in the clubhouse for one of those you and TC. Uh, but if you go to newsletter.no layingup.com, you can update

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awesome. And third, we are still soliciting voicemails for our mailbag episode this Sunday and that is Sunday, March 2nd. So if it's March 3rd, you can still leave a voicemail if you want. The voicemail listener line is 1-833-330-8725. Press one for the NLU voicemail box. If you'd like to leave a message for the trap draw idiots, email you voicemail box. If you'd like to leave a message for the trap draw idiots, I'm included in that. You can press two. So that's one eight three three three three zero eight seven two five. Okay. Let's get back to TC. All right. Well, there you have it. Let's, let's get to the crown jewel of these episodes. We only had 10 minutes. I don't know if that's enough time. I told Deidre we needed an hour for this, but your top 10

courses, top 10 courses. Top 10 favorite courses in the world. Neil, can you speak to how difficult this was to put together? It's very difficult, but it's your list. And you don't have to rely on any confidential guides. You speak your truth, brother. OK.

I'm going to start off with Ely. Number 10. Number 10. Yeah. Ely's got to be on the list. For me, that is, I don't know, I think I've played it four times now. And I've played it in a variety of conditions. I played it Gale Force winds and a cloudy day. I've played it in a couple sunny days and it's just, it's resonated each and every time. 16 par fours, two par threes.

And normally I would hate that. It's like depending on the wind, like a bunch of them are double. Yeah, it's like the most, there's maybe more variety out there than anywhere I've played in the States at least. So yeah, I would say, I would say Ely's up there and James Braid, I just, I love,

James Braid's stuff I've played has been really, you know, enthralling. So yeah, Ely's up there and James Braid. I just, I love James Braid stuff I've played. It's been really, you know, enthralling. So yeah, Ely. Number nine. Number nine. I'm going to go with Pasa Tiempo. Hey. This was on Neil's list. This is the first McKenzie course I ever played. And really, I think the first great golf course I ever played. That's a good distinction. Yeah.

I kind of was the same bucket TC just always, and it's always stuck with me for just 12 years. You know, you're always like, man, that place was still to this day. Like, I love that place. Yeah. I think just even having the ability to like, oh, you know what? Like, no, yeah, it's pricey, but like you can, you can book a tea time there tomorrow. And that kind of set me off. Like, like after sweetens, I remember talking to Rob actually, I was like, where should I go see? He's like, Oh, you should go to

Positiempo. So Positiempo. And like, you know, we went there on my bachelor party. I don't know. It's just good vibes. And like the back nine out like, you know, front nine is cool. There's some awesome stuff, but the back nine is just the energy out there is spectacular. Hard to beat. Number eight. Number eight. I'm going to say, I'm going to say, Brora. I love it. And I think I love the Highlands. I could have done Brora Dornick. That would have been a squeaker too. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I almost associate, you know, you just kind of associate them together and it's like, I think that's one of the best 36 whole days in golf is the two of those. And it, you know, but it kind of, it's one of those things where like a lot of people go up and they play Dornick every time and then they won't play bro every time. I think

for me it's like, I'll go up and play bro every time. And then I need to go play Golsby and Tain and Fort Rose and Rose Marquee and all that stuff. But I think bro is me, it's like, I'll go up and play Brewer every time. And then I need to go play Golsby and Tain and Fort Rose and Rose Marquis and all that stuff. But I think Brewer is like, that's a center of gravity for me where just when you're kind of going north from the clubhouse, after you get through like, second, third hole and you're going all the way out to that far point. And there's the big monument to Sutherland out on the mountain there. And there's just, you feel like you're at the end of the earth and that's remarkable. So yeah, Aurora. Let's see here. And then actually right next to it, I'm going to put Dornak. That's number seven. Yeah. Number seven, because I think that's, you know, those two places are, there's just something special about the Highlands and it's, you know,

it's not that hard to get to, but you feel like you're, you feel like you're away from, from everything. So, um, yeah, that's seven. Gosh. Six. I'm going to go. There's not actually a list right now. He's just got a bunch of names spread out on, on like a jam board. Six. I'm going to go with Royal Lhythm. I didn't see that coming. I didn't either. It's kind of the, the first, I've only played it once. I've loved watching the opens there. I just think that the, again, I love a flat, a flattish

golf course or a small piece of property that feels like they extracted the most out of it. And you know, similar to like national, it's like a bunker museum where like there's, there's like 240 bunkers out there. And that was the first time I've ever played, like you can play that style. Like there's a style of golf in the States. It's like the Pete Dye kind of technical mogul skiing style of golf.

But at Lhythm, I felt like it was almost like that to me on that trip we played, you know, that was the first Lynx trip I ever took. And it was like West Lanks and Burkdale and Hoylake and Wallasey. But Lhythm spoke to me in a way that was different than the other ones. And it's not next to the ocean. I don't know. And it's funky. It starts with a par three. And it just like that day, I was like, you know what? I'm buckling up. I'm going to battle. I'm going to shoot a good number here. I'm going to, you know, like I was like, I'm going to par the last four holes just because I know

Adam Scott wrecked his rig coming in. And there was just a sense of accomplishment after like feeling like I navigated the chessboard out there. There's something to be said too for maybe this is why I like playing in that part of the world so much, but when you're not losing balls, you don't feel like you're playing as bad, right? Because I'm hearing you describe like the technical skiing of the United States is just like, oh yeah, cool. That's in the water. No, that's out of bounds. That's out of bounds. That's in the water. And that's so deflating, even if, you know, you can hit the ball the exact same way over there, but it's like, Oh no, you're going to find it. It's fine. You're just like, it might take you two shots to get out of that bunker. And you just don't ever get as down

on yourself when you're still in play, you know? Your reaction from like a local Sherpa on like, Oh my God, is that OB? No, no, it's not. No, you're fine. I mean, you're going to make a triple, but you're totally fucked there. All right. Top top five. Man, this is, this, this is where it gets really, really difficult because like the old course is, is going to be in there. Sure. I got to get Terry Eady in there. Of course. Let's just focus on five TC.

Well, it's like, all right, like Royal Melbourne East, Royal Melbourne West, Royal Adelaide, Kingston Heath. Like those are, fuck man. This is your cross to bear. This is, you know what this is? Springfield Country Club. You know what this is? This is the chicken's hook coming over to Roost for all the times we've walked off.

You're like, that's a top five golf course in the world. Like, all right, time to scoreboard DC. Let's hear it, my man. But I think some of it is like, Lytham caught me off guard. Favorite is different. Yeah. I think about Lytham all the freaking time, man. But yeah, like the fact that, you know, Pinder's number two is not going to be on this list.

Bannon trails isn't going to be on this list. Woking won't be on this list. Woking is not walking through that door, Dej. I mean, and some of them are like, I just haven't had enough bites at the apple yet either to, you know, consider that as part of my favorites. All right. No, sure. What's, what's five?

You see, five will be Kingston Heath. Okay. Good answer. No arguments from us. First Sam Bell course ever played. Again, going back to that theme of like kind of graded into some of its parts. I don't feel like I've ever walked off. Like I've played Kingston Heath. What four times I've never walked off a course each and every time that I've played more than once and been like, Oh, like I immediately want to go back to the first tee because I would do things

so much differently than I did it this round. It's so much differently than I did the round before that and around for that. It's just like this, this choose your own adventure thing where you start getting like, man, I'm doing the right stuff. I'm doing the right stuff. And then, no, I shouldn't have done that. What did I do that? Yeah, it's, it's, it's the perfect blend of like strategy and artistry, I think here here and just, you know, execution. Number four,'m like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I some days like I could, like I could wake up and be like LAC season, like my top three and it's not even in my top.

All right. Well, we can put an asterisk on this and say it's, you know, as of today, 13th, 4 30 Eastern. Hey, how do I separate out like the experience we had that one day, like a Royal Adelaide, like that was one of the most magical days of a Radar on golf course. But like, I don't even know if I want to go back there. Cause what if it doesn't look up to that? Yeah. You know, with the fourth pick, the cleats select I'll say Roe, Melbourne East. Whoa. Whoa. I mean, I feel like that, that really cements a couple spots in the top three. Then I would think, yeah.

Yeah. Roam over and East. I just think it's, it's the per and then number three is Rome over. That's what I was going to say. Like, wow. Look at Australia. Her sweep from five. Perfect compliment to one another.

Where like the stuff that you don't get on, on West, you get on East and then, you know, stuff you, the scale and the grandness on the East. sweep from five to three. Perfect compliment to one another where like the stuff that you don't get on, on west, you get on east and then, you know, stuff you, the scale and the grandness on. I don't know. There's just perfect counterpoints to another. It's, it's, it's fricking awesome, man. So you know what, you see, you know what I will, I will throw you a bone here. Why don't we just say the Royal Melbourne composite course is number four and we'll

throw you a bone for the top three. How about that? I'm going to say third will be Cypress point. Sure. It's just like, it is. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year.

I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year.

I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I think it's a good thing that we're doing this year. I'm going to say third. Will be Cypress point. Sure. It's just like, it is. Yeah. Freaking really good. And like if the fan base, I would say before I played Cypress, like Fisher's probably would have been on the top 10 list, but I'm just going for that sort of style of golf and everything. I don't know. Cypress is just how about that?

That's one nine one with a hoop. He doesn't make his top 10. I don't know. Cypress is just, how about that? That's one with a hoop. He doesn't make his top 10. So sick. That is truly that's so good. And then it's number two, really a question of, uh, are we taking it at two or one here? We're going, we're going to Terry at two. Love it. Then I think I know what's one. The old course. Yeah. I think that's great. I honestly thought you were going to say sand hills.

Oh, it's not even in the top 10. Not even in my top 10 right now. I need to get back. Probably the best course in America, but not necessarily the top 10. I mean, I've never, I truly sand hills. You said favorite. You didn't say best. Splash world didn't make it.

You know, I thought about putting Springfield Country Club on there. I thought I'd put an Essex County club on there. No Cal Club. You know, like Shiskin. Sure. There's all there's so much stuff that I need to see in England. God, TC is not going to sleep well in ID. God, I just I bricked it, man. It's locked up.

She's even really a golf course like that could have gotten on there. I know some are to cow club. This be old head. Gearheart. I freaking love Gearheart, man, like nothing in Ireland even even sniffed it. No, I would say nothing in Ireland. I think if we did a second

top ten, like I know you love Karn Karn would probably Karnan Sligo are probably my two favorites over there, but like I've never played County Down. I've never played Port Rush. Not LaHinch, Bally Bunyan. I really like LaHinch, but I don't know. I feel like I'm on kind of the tourist track there where like there's buses in the parking lot.

And it's just not, you know, like, I don't know. I just, part of this too is like, man, like the, my favorite, you know. Well, that's, no, you know, like, I don't know. I just, part of this too is like, man, like the, my favorite, you know, that's cause that, no, the experience matters to being far away. Clearly the, that's, that's what this list is for. It there's, I'm not criticizing you. I just, I'm, I'm surprised.

All of these, there's almost like a two, there's almost like a two of the unknown soldier on my top 10 list of like, I don't know, like the next golf course type, I play right of like, I've been interested in like, I don't know, like the next golf course I play, right. Of like, I want to be an unknown soldier. That is a Jack Reacher. I love that. Oh, listen, all of these lists are living documents.

T-Series. Yeah. You can revisit T-Series. You're welcome. Like DJ, it was like the Argentina trip, like the Cumbria was my favorite course from that trip and it's probably, it's not on anybody's top 100 list. Right. You know, a lot of courses out there, man. Yeah. So I don't know.

I just yeah. T.C., I know how hard that exercise was for you. And I appreciate it. Take the afternoon off, man. Take a breath. That's all you get. Yeah, you're done. Get your feet up, man. Drink some electrolytes for me. OK, I don't want you cramping after we, we, uh, and this thing.

Oh God, I just, you know, I'm going to have, yeah, like trails, sand hills, Fischer's, Dunaviddy wild horse, crystal downs. Yeah. Uh, Northland, you know, all sorts, there's all sorts of places. I'm just like, you know, Northland, Northland is so sick. I'm going to, you know, I need to reach out to some of these people and just tell them, Hey, I mean, yeah, that's the thing. Go, go. Maybe if we did it on a Monday, you walked off 18 with been like, this isn't my top 10 and they're listening. And there's like, what the fuck, man? He lied to me. Yeah. That's what I would say. Go put the Normatech boots on TC and charge your phone because you're going to have some you're going to get

to be getting some calls this afternoon. Boys, that was that was a blast. Thank you for hopping on. T.C. Neil, always good to be with you. And there were all sorts of questions that you guys that we like, we didn't get to. That like, what's your go to swing thought? I don't have one. That's why I didn't get to it.

You know about that. Or like, what's your go-to swing thought? I don't have one. That's why I didn't get to it. You know about that. Or like what's your, how would you like, what would you equate your, your golf game to Neil? You remember that car dad had when we were growing up, the old Mercedes 240 D, like the 1972, where they like you could hear coming from like seven miles. It had like a perpetual oil leak in the garage, like just in the same spot, you know? Yeah, that like that would be my golf game of like, I think he sold it to some guy like

it had like 250,000 miles he sold to this guy. It's probably still running today and it has like 700,000 miles on it. And you know, it's just, it's a tank and it, TZ I was going to say the speedometer only goes up to like 80 miles an hour. I think it's accurate, right? TZ is not going to shoot above, you know, 81, but he's probably not going to shoot below, you know, 70.

Yeah. God, that's good. Yeah. Well, listen, we got a lot. The Mercedes sedan, it has like, it's going to run forever and it has a little bit of elegance to it. You know, I was going to say when you said you high floor, low ceiling, you're like the London flat. If I'm the big Brownstone, you're the flat. Yeah. Just a great piece of real estate, you know, great neighborhood. That's right. You

live there forever. Well, listen, we got a lot of fodder for the next episode TC. I'm already looking forward to it, but boys, good being with you. Let's, uh, we will catch everybody next time. Cheers. Crack on.