No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 968: NLU Special Projects - Rickie Fowler

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

Ten years ago, Rickie Fowler won The Players in one of the most exciting finishes in the history of the PGA Tour. It seemed like he had arrived as the next great player. The fact that it didn't quite work out that way shouldn't lessen the magic of that Sunday, or how we feel about Rickie a decade later. Support our sponsors: Rhoback fanduel.com/nlu Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining The Nest: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at nolayingup.com/join Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. Johnny, that's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different? Better than most. Expect anything different. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Solly here. We are back this week with another of KVV's historical narratives. Man, I don't even have to do podcasts anymore. The guy's just knocking out narratives left and right. This one is about Ricky Fowler in the 2015 Players Championship.

He's been itching to write an essay about Ricky and the players ever since he joined us here at No Lying Up. And it's the 10th anniversary of Ricky's win. Honestly, hard to believe it has been 10 years, but it felt like the perfect time to look back at it. Probably a lot of stuff in here that you've forgotten about. I know there's definitely a lot of stuff in here that I'd forgotten about. But in the back half of the episode, DJ KVV and Sean Martin had a little round table discussion about Ricky's career, what they remember about that day. DJ and Sean were both right there for that awesome playoff

between Ricky, Sergio, Kevin Kisner. It's one of their favorite golf moments ever too. So this is a fun one. It's a little different, but I think you'll really dig it. And here's KVV on why we're drawn to certain players in the magic of that Sunday afternoon. Here's one of my favorite questions to ask a sports fan. Why do certain athletes mean more to you than others?

In team sports, the answer can be as simple as where you're from. As human beings, we are naturally tribal. So regional connection to an athlete often creates a bond that defies logic or reason. Why to this day was a gangly power forward from French Lick Indiana something of a religious figure in Boston, Massachusetts? Because Larry Bird played his entire career in Celtics Green and White. That magical jump shot would have played in any corner of America,

but Boston got to claim him as an adopted son. Had Byrd been drafted by the Knicks or the Lakers, those same fans would have viewed him with contempt and disdain. We are often, as Jerry Seinfeld famously said, weirdly more loyal to uniforms than to humans. Team loyalty is a kind of hard thing to justify in the end. You know, I love the Giants, but when you think about it, who are the Giants? You know what I mean? You know what I love the Giants, but when you think about it, who are the Giants? You know what I mean? You know what I mean? I mean, it's different guys.

Every year, it's different guys, right? Teams will move from city to city. You're rooting for clothes when you get right down to it. It's the same outfits. It's the same. I'm rooting for an outfit. That's what it's come down to. I want my team's clothes to be the clothes from the other city. That's not so bad either. There's nothing really wrong with that.

It's laundry. We're rooting for screaming about laundry here. Golf, however, isn't set up with the same kind of regional restraints. It is, like boxing or tennis or darts, a form of individual achievement and expression. The sport has tried in recent years to build up some kind of team element, and perhaps you are one of the few people who is emotionally invested in the fortunes of a player because he's a member of the Cliques or the Boston Common or the High Flyers. But for most of us, we're not drawn to root for certain golfers because of a loose connection to our hometown.

We don't pull for laundry. We invest in personality. Style can feel just as important as substance in this calculus. There are no wrong answers or regional betrayals when it comes to picking your favorite golfer. If you, or more likely one of your parents, preferred Arnold Palmer to Jack Nicklaus, it didn't have anything to do with Pennsylvania vs. Ohio. It was probably because you admired Arnie's boldness, his willingness to risk everything on one impossible shot for no other reason than it made him feel alive. If you prefer Jack, it's probably because you admired his strategy and precision, or his polite but singular intensity. Arnie went for tucked pins and made eagles and precision. Or his polite but singular intensity. Arnie went for tucked pins and made eagles and doubles. Jack would hit a safe but perfect shot to the middle

of the green. He'd roll in a 30-foot putt to beat you. Then he'd shake your hand, pat your shoulder, and tell you what a pleasure it was to share your company. He could kick your ass and you'd still thank him for the privilege. So why do we choose who we're drawn to in golf? Maybe we see qualities in them that we admire because we lack them in ourselves. Maybe they represent how we think we'd play or behave if we had the talent or the drive to be one of the best in the world. Or maybe we just like the way they swing. Sometimes it's

as simple as that. It doesn't have to be some cosmic mystery that someone like me spins together with syrupy pros trying to explain the meaning of life. Maybe their swing is just sick. Why, for example, do people love friend couples? It's not as though he has a riveting, dynamic personality. He has a gentleman's grace and the soft hands and a resting pulse of a heart surgeon. But his swing is one of those movements that blurs the line between athletic endeavor and artistic expression. Sure, plenty of golfers have one more, but how many of them make you feel something the way couples does?

If swing tempo can be translated into music, Fred might as well be our sports coltrane. Now that we've unpacked why one might be drawn to a certain golfer, here's another exercise that's just as interesting. Why do we dislike certain players? There is something undefinable about that question too because it feels, quite often, just as personal. And that brings us to the subject of this narrative deep dive episode, the enigma that is Rickie Fowler, who 10 years ago won the players championship in one of the most memorable electric final rounds in the history of the PGA Tour.

If you were to ask me to draw up a list of my favorite golfers to emerge on the scene after Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson, I'm not sure Ricky would make the top 10. I've struggled for years to pin down how I feel about him. He's been a much more successful pitchman than he's been a professional golfer, although he has won six times. He's come close to winning a major but never found a way to break through. He's somehow been able to be seen as an edgy, youthful alternative to golf's stuffy dad-bod culture, yet also remain one of the game's blandest quotes and least controversial figures. He is the human equivalent of a skateboard shop at the mall, one that advertises rebellion

but also is definitely trying to sell you stuff made by the safest brands in America. However, if you asked me to list my favorite rounds that anyone has ever played outside a major championship, his final round a decade ago at the players would be cemented at the top of my list. It is one of my favorite moments in all of modern golf. Fearless and riveting dark contest that if I'm being honest, might represent the peak of the PGA Tour for me. I don't know that it will ever get any better or I will ever feel as invested in a shot

as I did in that moment when Ricky did this in a sudden death playoff on the 17th at Sawgrass. We don't really spend a lot of time anymore debating whether the players should be the sport's fifth major. It kind of feels like settled law these days. It's a great tournament, but it's not a major, especially since it won't feature John Rahm or Bryson DeChambeau or even Cam Smith, who won it back in 2022. But I can never watch the players without thinking about Ricky, and how fun it was to

feel for several hours in 2015, like this was just a prologue for what was still to come. This is what golf outside the majors could be. As Americans, we didn't have to hang on to Tiger or Phil forever because Ricky no longer felt like he was being propped up by several marketing agencies as the next big thing, he actually did feel like he might deliver on that promise. That it didn't quite work out that way is admittedly kind of a bummer, but that doesn't rob that afternoon of its power, at least not for me. But since a decade has gone by, I couldn't resist the urge to relive it, to re-examine

it. It's kind of like talking about a band that meant a ton to you at a certain point in your life. Okay, so they only made one great album, they couldn't keep that magic going. Or maybe you changed, you went through a breakup, you matured, got a job, settled down, found other stuff to enjoy into adulthood. When you're driving around in your car and randomly hear one of their songs, you don't really care about what

came after their peak, you only care about how it made you feel in that moment. That is what the 2015 players was. It's basically Rickie Fowler's version of Mr. Brightside. When we come back, we're going to walk through that golden afternoon. But first, we're going to hear from NLE's resident Ricky Fowler skeptic, my colleague Big Randy. Even if you love the 2015 players like I do, you have to acknowledge that Ricky can be kind of polarizing. There's a bit of alchemy involved when we decide what players we love, but the same is

true for the players who annoy us. And Ricky, well, if you've listened to this podcast over the last decade, you might remember that he is not exactly one of Randy's favorites. Randy's not a hater, despite what some people believe. Ricky just isn't his tempo. We'll make him explain why, right after a quick word from, and I know Ricky will appreciate this, one of our beloved sponsors. Stay tuned. No Lying Up is brought to you by our friends at Roeback.

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That's spelled R-H-O-B-A-C-K.com. That's 20% off all pants, polos, hoodies, and more with code NLU. Back to the pod. Okay, I don't think I'm breaking the fourth wall here by telling you that sometimes the line between what is a bit and what is genuine on the NLU pod can be occasionally blurry, particularly for Randy and TC and DJ.

They like to have fun, and so sometimes they lean way into the fun. Pretty often, actually. But there's always a kernel of truth to it. This is especially true of Randy's decade long frustration with Ricky. He's joked for years that Ricky was the embodiment of late stage capitalism. As punishment, he once had to dress like Ricky Fowler for a round after he was eliminated from the competition in Toursas, California. First of all, it's a disgrace that there's not more orange in here.

I thought that was this whole thing. I feel like they're going to give me a lot of crap about this shirt, but talk to the store manager, there's just no orange pin one. So I think, I think, I think you should drop the IE. So I'm just going to get the Rick one. Okay, cool. Oh man, I wish there was a little more flat build. Proud of you, bud.

Yo, Ricky. Randy seemed like the perfect person to have on to assess Fowler's body of work because, to his credit, there has never been a person less interested or influenced by some marketing firm's brand engagement platform. Big, we have joked for years about your relationship with Ricky Fowler. Tell me a little bit about where this bit began and how much of it is not a bit and is actually real. Yeah, I mean, it began, it kind of, I feel like the origins run concurrent with no laying up, honestly, as we started to be more active on social

and started doing podcasts and started talking about golf, you need good stuff to talk about. And I felt like Ricky Fowler was excellent fodder for discussion. I truly don't think it was ever a bit. There were points where I leaned into it and you could convict me of getting a little, you know, maybe piling on a little bit or maybe chumming it up. What's the word I'm looking for? Maybe hamming it up a bit too much. Okay, I will cop to that. But I think my underlying truth has always simply been, Ricky, I need to see something before before you give me all the commercials before you give me

the orange outfits. I just need a little bit of substance if you expect me to go on this ride with you. We have joked for years that Ricky is the manifestation of late-stage capitalism. What do we mean by that? Man, I just think it's moving merchandise, it's pushing products, it's being in countless commercials. But what's the there there? I think when I think of like, you know, joking about late stage capitalism, what are you really selling me? And that was the question I could never square with Ricky Fowler.

Is it your winning personality? I mean, no offense to Ricky. I can't remember one interesting thing he's told me. Is it your dominance on course? No, we know it's not that. We were getting commercials and everything before we had hit more PGA Tour wins than I can count on my hand, let alone any majors. And so at the end of the day, it just is... I recognize the popularity. It's being jammed down my throat left and right, but I'm just not sure what the actual product is here at KVV. And as somebody that matured kind of into and through the Great Recession, man, I was fascinated by bubbles and by selling things without much underlying value. And I just couldn't help but assign that to Ricky Fowler.

How did you feel when you'd see grown men in full orange jumpsuits walking their way around PGA Tour events, you know, shadowing Ricky as he attempted to live up to this reputation? I'd be embarrassed. It's cringe. It's deep, deep embarrassment for him. I know. Orange outfits.

And it just, it's one thing if it's like a six-year-old kid, I get it, I get it, you know, I get that. But man, I feel like if you have a driver's license, certainly if you can buy a beer, nah, we don't need that. Again, because what's underneath there? What's the fandom for? I've never gotten that. Is he like a dynamic personality on the golf course? No, I don't believe so.

Is he a great quote? Is he like one of the most engaging minds in the sport? No. Is it dominant? No. So it's like, what is it? You've just been sold a bill of goods by a commercial in a PR campaign. Nah, no thanks. Deep embarrassment KVV.

Before I let you go, I've been told I need to ask you about when you were backed down by Rickie Fowler. I believe at North Berwick. This is one of the biggest lies in NLU history. And I will I in I know the other guys relish it and and I just want to set the record straight yes we were at North Baric it was the first tour of sauce season we had played the golf course and we're in the clubhouse up in the second story enjoying a beer after the round they said hey did you guys hear Ricky's playing the course today? He was actually, he's

out behind you. We go, oh, no kidding. You know, maybe that wasn't my exact words, but you get the idea. And anyway, we're out on the balcony as, you know, I watch Ricky Fowler play the 18th of North Barrick. We're having a great conversation. It's a beautiful day. We got drinks in hand and the rest of the time that's what I'm doing. I told them, hey, I'm out on the balcony. I've established my position. If Ricky wants to come out here and say anything to me, he's more than welcome to. I'm not going into the clubhouse to seek him out. I say what I said, he's not going to change my mind. I don't feel like I owe him anything. And so, you know, this, of course, has turned into Randy got back down and he refused to go, you know, kiss the ring. What are we talking about? What are we talking about here? I was on the balcony. If he wanted to come out and see me, he absolutely could

have. You had the high ground, perhaps the moral high ground as well. That's right. That's right. Thank you, Mr. Big. At the same time, it would be unfair to frame Ricky purely as the creation of some thirsty marketing executive trying to infiltrate the golf space. His origin story is legitimately riveting. He was born in 1988 in Marietta, California, and it's unlikely Ricky would have ever become a professional golfer if not for his maternal grandfather, Utaka Tanaka, a first-generation American whose parents immigrated from Japan in the 1930s. During World War II, Tanaka and his parents were taken from their home in Pomona, California, and placed in a Japanese internment camp in Heart Mountain, Wyoming under Executive Order

9066, issued by Franklin Roosevelt following the attack on Pearl Harbor, requiring the imprisonment of most Japanese Americans. They had to leave behind a small poultry business. "'I was so young I didn't understand the hardship,' Tanaka told Golf Digest in 2016. "'Even after the war, we weren't allowed to come back to California for two years and ended up going to New York State. My father was able to keep a business going and bring us back, but some of our friends

lost everything. My parents hardly ever mentioned it, and I never talked to Ricky about it. Tanaka did eventually talk to his grandson about golf. Every Wednesday, from the time he was four years old, Ricky would spend the entire day with his grandfather. Tanaka wasn't much of a golfer, but he was a patient mentor and a loving patriarch, so he would take his grandson to the Myriada Valley Golf Range, where the two of them would hit balls for hours. Being around him gave me an attitude toward life, Auler said. He's always in

a good mood. He loves having people around him. He treats people the right way, loves life. He's just happy. It's the way I try to be. Occasionally, Tanaka would take Ricky fishing, but as he grew older, it was another sport that grabbed a big chunk of his attention. Ricky's father Rod was an amateur motocross racer, and in time he had Ricky on the back of a motorbike, kicking up dirt and tearing through the inland empire hills at top speed. There's still nothing I love more than being in the air, Fowler said. I've always liked speed and things on wheels, going out there and putting it all out there, being on the edge.

Fowler loved golf, and it was always his favorite sport, but there's a good chance he never would have become a professional golfer if he hadn't broken his foot in three places at age 15 When he wrecked his bike decided to give up motocross to focus on his golf game In an appearance on the I can fly podcast with morgan hoffman and jeg kaufman the third He detailed how serious the accident was. I remember I think it was right before Um, it was my freshman year of high school our golf season out in californ California would be in the spring. So like second semester of freshman year.

And I actually hadn't crashed on my pit bike. It wasn't my fault, but ran into someone when we were out in the desert. We kind of had a little track set up by camp and there was a blind jump and someone was coming the other way. They actually had, they were given one of their kids a ride

on the front of their bike. And so there's a little kid sitting in front. And so I came up, I mean, I was on the 110 and so it wasn't like crazy fast or anything, but I had it laid over, and I just remember in the air seeing them come up, and so, oh, I ditched the bike. Oh, shit.

Luckily they were all good. I mean, that's, you just see the kid there. It's no thinking. It's react, and yeah, I broke my foot in three spots, blew up my left knee. Luckily nothing structurally was bad there, but ended up being in a boot for, I don't know, six weeks or two months, letting that heal.

Yeah, minor for what dirt bike injuries could be. But yeah, at that time it was like, all right, if want to take golf seriously I can't really be riding and put myself at risk. When Fowler made it to the PGA Tour in 2010, he felt like an ad executive's wet dream. He was handsome, he was polite, he liked to wear bright colors particularly orange, he had a flat bill cap and wore his hair like he was the cutest member of a boy band. He was, not even joking, a genuine heartthrob. One of my good friends in golf media, who I'm not going to name, sheepishly admitted

to me recently that she had posters of Ricky hung up at her bat mitzvah. I cannot express how much I love that anecdote, but I promise, her secret will remain safe with me. At least until I tag her on Instagram in a promotional reel for this podcast. Ricky was somehow edgy without ever being offensive. And that made him a magnet for up and coming brands trying to infiltrate the golf space,

but also weirdly insurance companies and mortgage brokers. And the motocross thing, well, that was big too, even just as a gimmick. Outside of Tiger Woods, that was big too, even just as a gimmick. Outside of Tiger Woods, golf was seen by many as a sport of either skinny weaklings or balding divorces with dad bods. Ricky wasn't that. Ricky was, dare I say this, as a 47-year-old man.

Cool. When he teamed up with Bubba Watson, Ben Crane and Hunter Mahan and filmed a parody rap group called the Golf Boys in the vein of Andy Samberg and the Lonely Island, golf kind of had its first crossover star. There was just one problem. He couldn't deliver on the hype. Ricky Fowler was, by any objective measure, great at golf. He made the Ryder Cup team in 2010.

He was the PGA Tour Rookie of the Year. He finished fifth at the Open Championship as a 22-year-old. His face was everywhere. His popularity exploded. He just didn't win that often. But he captured the Wells Fargo in 2012, beating Roy McElroy for his first professional victory, it felt like the floodgates might open.

But they just didn't. In 2014, he became just the third golfer in history to finish in the top five at all four majors, something only Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods had accomplished. But without a win, what it mostly did was raise questions finish in the top five at all four majors, something only Jack Nicholas and Tiger Woods had accomplished. But without a win, what it mostly did was raise questions about whether he lacked that extra gear that great golfers used to close. Ricky's habit of waiting around to congratulate the winner every week became a running joke

on Golf Twitter. There was Rick again, behind the 18th green, waiting to shake hands with another buddy who did what he couldn't do. It drove some people in media crazy. None more than professional provocateurs skip Bayless. But maybe never in the history of sports has a player been more overrated, certainly more overhyped than Ricky Fowler. Never has a player in any sport had more national TV commercials

while winning less than Ricky Fowler has. If here's the punchline on Ricky Fowler, marketing lightning rod, he's not even funny. There's nothing particularly witty or entertaining about the interviews that he gives. There's no magnetic charisma. There's none of that. Yet he's routinely viewed as golf's most popular player. That was the state of Ricky Fowler discourse in 2015, but it wasn't just the media.

He was placed in featured groups so often on PGA Tour Live, fellow players started privately referring to it as Rikki Tour Live. The week of the 2015 Players Championship, Sports Illustrated ran a poll of PGA Tour players where they were asked to anonymously pick someone as the game's most overrated player. 24% picked Fowler, tying him for the top spot with Ian Poulter. Fowler saw the poll while scrolling through Twitter prior to his opening round. I laughed, he said. I thought it was funny.

Nothing felt particularly funny when Fowler tumbled down the leaderboard in the third round of the players after climbing into contention the first two days. Fowler began his final round four shots behind Chris Kirk, and no one on the broadcast was giving him much of a thought. Most of us on golf Twitter were too busy laughing at NBC announcer Josh Elliott's now infamous Mother's Day set-up piece about Kirk, the other enduring piece of golf history to unfold that day. Candidly, this clip doesn't have anything to do with Ricky Fowler, but I don't care.

It's an essential piece of the cultural collage that was that Sunday. And it only exists like an important artifact because TC was able to whip out his phone and record his TV screen. NBC memory hold it otherwise. I'm not sure modern golf was ever better than this. All of which matters not at all to Chris Kirk. He had dinner with his family last night, helped bathe his two young sons, and perhaps allowed himself a fleeting glimpse of what could be. And he says nothing will change for him today,

and for 18 more holes, perhaps he'll be right. But if he is, then everything will change. It's our Mother's Day gift to you all, this glorious madness. So to the golf, we go. When we return, we'll dig in on Ricky's own glorious madness. So to the golf we go. When we return we'll dig in on Ricky's own glorious madness and why it still resonates a decade later. Everything didn't change but what a gift it was anyway. No Lying Up is brought to you by Fandl. The players championship is here.

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visit archie-help.com. Back to the pod. Here is an interesting truth about Ricky Fowler's final round at the 2015 Players. It was pretty pedestrian for the first 12 holes. He played the front nine in even par, and he bogeyed the 10th hole. When he came to the 13th, he was 5 shots behind Sergio Garcia. Most of his final round wasn't even on television because he was such a non-factor.

I know that 10 years doesn't feel like that long ago, but this might help synthesize that it actually was. There used to be internet footage of the birdie Ricky made on 13, but it only existed on Vine, a streaming platform that no longer exists. It would be like my parents trying to cue up a shot by Jack Nicklaus on Betamax, only learned that the tape had sadly deteriorated.

But trust me, the birdie on 13 was essential, like watching someone get defibrillator paddles to the chest and reset their heart rhythm. At least he was alive. Even when Ricky rolled in a fifteen-foot birdie on the fifteenth hole, he didn't quite feel real just yet. There was still too much ground to make up, and it seemed like Fowler might have to play the last three holes in four under par just to have a chance. Anyone who had followed Ricky's career up to this point would have conceded that nothing felt out of the ordinary just yet.

This is what Ricky did. Played decent enough once he was out of contention to put a satisfactory spin on the week. In the words of Logan Roy on succession, he was not a killer. To win big tournaments, one has to be a killer. was not a killer. To win big tournaments, one has to be a killer. This is what made what happened next genuinely one of my favorite shots in the history of professional golf. Ricky Fowler

hit a good drive on the par five 16th hole and was left with 243 yards to a peninsula green. The wind was in his face, and the ball was slightly above his feet. He had never made an eagle on the 16th before, but if he didn't make one now, his tournament was essentially over. He and his caddy, Joe Scavrin, talked over the club selection and ultimately decided to hit a choked-up three-wood. If they were right, the ball would carry the water by maybe a yard or two, and from there, fate would have to take over. Sometimes when I'm bored, I cue up this clip. It's not quite as famous as a pair of shots that are still to come, but in this moment, it was everything. Podcasting is obviously an audio medium, but in some ways, it's better just

to hear how it unfolded. Listen to the ball contact how unbelievably pure it is, and then focus on my favorite part, the way that Skavern implores the ball, begging it even to hold its line. Ricky Fowler, bold play here, 243 yards into the wind. Oh, it's a little right. Oh, what The three wood carried the bank by a foot and then kicked right and trickled softly towards the hole. I still remember the way Ricky playfully smacked Scovern in the chest as they walked towards the green. That acknowledgement, that faith and trust in each other had been, in this moment, rewarded.

This tap-in for Eagle would not have meant much if the round had stalled from there. Instead, it came to the seventeenth green just a shot off the lead and threw a dart just four feet left of the pin. You could feel the amphitheater surrounding the Island Green vibrate, the roars ripping across the water and lingering in the air like a sermon. I'm sure there have been stretches when Tiger Woods struck the ball even better than Ricky did that day. I'm sure Ben Hogan scholars would laugh at the way I'm gushing over a stretch of holes that took place outside a major.

But Ricky's ball contact on that final stretch? I think that's how golf shots are supposed to sound if they could exist on a celestial plane. Please put the sound of this wedge in a time capsule so that future generations can free base it from a colony on Mars. He wasn't finished. Somehow Ricky kept raising the bar. A tee shot on 18 is one of the hardest in golf. It implores you to hit a tight draw around the corner, but if you play the proper shot,

it brings the lake into play. You cannot be timid with your execution. And Ricky wasn't. He smashed a drive down the right side of the fairway, then watched it curve gently left until it found grass way out there in the divot free zone. Looks good. This one down the left hand side, Johnny. That is perfect. And long down there again with no divots around him.

He's got a really good chance to get inside 10 feet from there. He did not quite live up to Miller's prediction. Ricky hit it to 16 feet. But then, he stood over the putt, and with the deft touch of a concert violinist, brushed his ball down a subtle slope, right into the center of the cup. Ricky Fowler with an incredible run down the stretch.

Six under in the last six holes. It could have ended there. He walked off the green with a one-stroke lead, cautiously wondering if he'd just won the golf tournament outright. But the fact that he didn't, that there was still a playoff looming, made it an even sweeter memory. Sergio Garcia and Kevin Kisner are, just to be frank, decidedly not my dudes. It's okay if you like either, or both. Again, there is no right answer when it comes to picking the players you choose to root

for or against. What matters here is that both players were up for the fight. They each trailed by a stroke on the 17th tee. When Garcia hit his approach long to the back of the green, it would mean he would need to roll in a 43 footer to tie. If you don't remember, you can probably guess what happened. It's gonna stretch. Sergio Garcia. Oh man. What a punt. A few seconds later, it was Kisner's turn to roll in a birdie. And make it another one. Kisner to 12 under par.

I could walk you shot for shot through the three hole aggregate playoff. What ultimately matters is that Kisner and Fowler felt like tiny Greek gods in that golden afternoon light, hurling lightning bolts at each other. They each birdied the 17th again, and I remember jumping off my couch, punching the air, scouting various curse words at my television. Great endings have to unfurl organically. They can't be manufactured, which is why they feel so special when they do arrive. But in all the years since, I've wished that golf could have found a way to bottle up that

afternoon and deliver it more often. I don't think it mattered who you were rooting for that day. Either way, you got to watch some of the boldest and most audacious golf in that tournament's history. Sergio was eliminated when he couldn't make a birdie on 18, but that meant Kisner and Fowler were headed back to the 17th tee at least one more time. I've already played this clip for you at the beginning of the podcast, but I want you to hear it one more time because it's one of my favorite calls in history. There is a moment, right after the ball leaves Ricky's clubface, when NBC announcer Roger

Maltby is convinced Fowler has just thrown away the fairy tale. No one goes right of the pin on 17 on Sunday. You are courting disaster. There simply isn't any margin for error. Kisner was already safely on the green, and if Ricky's ball had hopped into the water, it would have felt like all the air had been drained from the amphitheater. It would have been the biggest letdown to an epic afternoon one could have imagined. But that didn't happen. Instead, this did. When Ricky rolled in a four-footer to win, it felt, in a way, like a prophecy had come true.

Sure, this wasn't a major, but it was as fun as any major in recent memory. All those commercials, all those jokes about late-stage capitalism, all the quips about grown men who dress in full orange bodysuits needing a restraining order, all that was secondary. Ricky Fowler had arrived. When we looked back one day on his career, it seemed like this would be the moment we would remember, when he kicked down the door, filled his potential, and entertained the hell out of us. How should we feel about the fact that it didn't work out that way? Sometimes like when Tiger won the 1997 Masters, Rory won the 2011 US Open, a transcendent performance really is

the beginning of an era, the debut of a generational star. Other times, something else. It's not exactly fair to call Ricky a one-hit wonder. He had close calls and majors in the last decade, none closer than the 2018 Masters when he finished second,, stroke behind Patrick Reed. But there have been ebbs and flows and slumps and disappointments. He changed swing coaches a couple of times, changed his swing, and changed it back. His one-time coach, Butch Harmon, asked him if he was more interested in being a Kardashian

or a professional golfer. He played in an Olympics, his world ranking tumbled. Asked him if he was more interested in being a Kardashian or a professional golfer Played in an Olympics his world ranking tumbled he flirted with joining live shot the lowest round in US Open history He got married started a family Ten years ago. He had unlimited untapped potential Today Ricky Fowler's 36 years old ranked 95th in the world He is always going to be the person I think about during players week, particularly when the leaders reach the closing stretch. In 2022, Cam Smith hit a shot right of the pin on 17, and made birdie on his way to victory,

so it's not like Fowler's heroics have never been duplicated. But there is something about being the first to live so boldly. My other lasting memory of 2015 is that when Ricky finished, a big group of his friends was waiting for him behind the green. Bubba Watson, Billy Horschel, Zach Johnson, Justin Thomas, they all wanted to return the gesture to the guy who always stuck around for an extra beat to congratulate them. As the years went by, that rose above all the jokes. If you couldn't win that often, you might as well be the kind of person that people

want to be there for when you do. I can't speak to whether or not Ricky's career has been a disappointment. All I know is, for one glorious afternoon, he took me, took all of us really, on one hell of a ride. Thanks for listening. I'm Kevin Van Volkenberg, Editorial Director at No Laying Up. Sound mixing and music for this episode was done by Charlie Van Kirk with additional music by Carrie Van Kirk and Asher Kurtz. Additional editing and reporting by DJ Pyhavski. Speaking of DJ, stick around,

because he was there that magical day in 2015. And up next, he and I and Sean Martin of the PGA Tour are going to have a friendly round table about Ricky and discuss what the two of them remember most from walking inside the ropes on that closing stretch. All right, guys, I've called you here because I wanted to talk about one of my favorite tournaments of all time,

the 2015 players. DJ, welcome to the by program. Thank you. Thank you for having me on your show. Good to be here. Also with us here, PJ Tours, Sean Martin. Sean, thanks for joining us. Always happy to talk about the Player's Championship.

You know that. I know, it's an important event for you to promote in every way possible. Guys, I know you were there for the 2015 players and that's why I wanna get some of your memories, some of your kind of feelings about what it was like to be on site that day I'm of the opinion that this is the most memorable non major of the last decade. Am I wrong? I

Saw that on the agenda and I racked my brain and the only thing that I could come up with and it doesn't even come close It was you know, we're speed 61 at scenics in the third round like two or three years ago. Yeah That was a rejuvenation of old golf winter I felt like, but obviously I don't think compares to the point of interest. I really couldn't think of something that comes close. Yeah. I don't, I don't think there's even another contender that's in this, in this stratosphere. It kind of was, and from a players championship specific perspective, I mean, it's just, this is the culmination of everything that everyone has ever said that the players is and could be, you know, it's just, this is the culmination of everything that everyone

has ever said that the players is and could be, you know, it's like you had the, the first, the aggregate playoff for the first time ever. You had NBC just in full swing with Gary and Johnny and Raj stomping around out there. And I mean, it was just, this is as good as it gets guys hitting great shots on the most memorable holes, the most famous holes in the world. It's just, it was, it was awesome, man. And Ricky versus Sergio was a whole thing. And it just, God, it, it, it ruled, man. I think about it way too much. You guys used to cover kind of amateur golf back in your days of golf week.

So you kind of knew Ricky pretty well particularly when he burst out of the scene. Sean you wrote a lot about him. Just how big of a deal was Ricky for the tour back in those days and everything they were trying to do to connect with the youths? Yeah I think in all the discussions around Ricky's marketing and there was the over hyped, overrated survey that I'm sure we'll get to that came out that week. Like, we'll forget the resume Ricky had put together or when he came out, he was really this like prospect and phenom. Like I was still in Southern California when he was a freshman and shot 62 to win the state championship and it was like, I mean, winning the California state championship in high

school is a big deal. Shooting 62 as a freshman is insane, just going that low, especially back then. And then, you know, it makes the walk-up team before he starts in college, like, I mean, yeah, there's the motorbike stuff and there was, you know, the flashy colors and the orange outfits, but like Ricky legitimately had the resume when he came out as well to kind of back up the hype. You could argue it took him maybe too long to win and then people started to focus more on, you know, the amount of marketing around him him but like he had a resume that justified kind of the hype when he turned pro it's not like this just sort of you know came out of nowhere it's like oh just he rides motorbikes really gonna lead into that like i mean he almost won i think his third tour start as a pro and that famous

playoff that i think a lot about where Troy Madison beat both Ricky and Jamie Lovemark in a playoff at the fries and both then it was like they just turned pro and i think about how I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

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I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point for all the like you said, for all the this guy's overrated, this guy's overhyped, all of that kind of became true eventually. But at this point, that was not the case. I mean, it was the number one amateur in the world. Right. And it kind of

reminds you, Kev, we were talking about Spieth recently and kind of the same 2013, 2014, 15 timeframe. And I mean, Ricky's kind of the only guy that's comparable, I feel like to Jordan's ascendance from like an American golf perspective as a guy who, you know, like I was saying the other day, it's kind of hard for the casual golf fan to have space in their brain for 200 tour players. And then, oh, also what are the youths doing? What's going on in amateur golf? You know, you've only got space for one or two of those guys. And Ricky was absolutely one or two of those guys.

And then to your point, Sean, to come out, turn pro and just immediately threatened to win on the PJ tour. It kind of almost, uh, you know, that, that buys you a lot of credit in the bank, I feel like, and that, that kind of makes you, um, once you prove it, it's, it, that makes you makes you kind of moves you to a different echelon for the next year, two years until finally he did win at Quill Hollow. So take me back to 2015 a little bit. You guys are working

for the tour at this moment. What's your like job? What is your assignment in this players? What are you guys going on each day? I was just your standard. I think you know. Journalism writing articles for our website DJ. I think was in the nascent days of social media. You know, I don't even know we could post

pictures on Twitter at that point. I think we were still those are the days of live tweeting and play by play tweeting like Tiger being a press conference. We'll be banging out single sentence tweets like as he speaks like you don't have threads back then either. So it was just a single census shot in the ether. Um,

sure. Tiger, Tiger. Yeah. R RIP. Um, I'll let DJ speak on the state of social media then, but I just definitely remember who were getting social media

efforts off the ground that year. Yeah. And it was a very small team. It was basically me and one other person working on social media stuff at that point. So it was kind of like, you had this weird in between, like, are we supposed to live tweet what's going on for people who can't watch the broadcast? Or are we supposed to find kind of unique stuff that people can't see on the broadcast? I guess we're trying to almost figure that out in real time. And so for a tournament like this, where, you know, I mean, the three guys that made the playoffs, obviously were just trading kind of haymakers, but she also had Ben Martin.

You also had Bill Haas. You also like it just an incredibly condensed leaderboard. But I remember, so I remember kind of half the day being like, all right, I think I kind of got to watch on TV and like see what's going on. So I know what to post. Uh, because as you guys know, going to a golf tournament is, is great on Thursday, Friday, even Saturday. But like, once you get to Sunday, it's like, oh man, I can't really afford to just go watch one group

for four and a half hours. What if something else happens on the other side of the golf course? But eventually once that finished, I think it was, basically once Ricky got to 18, I remember sprinting out of the media center and just being like, all right, I'm just going to have to follow Ricky. You know, like, this is unbelievable. This finish and we've got a little, he finished so much earlier than everybody

else too. So it was like, we still got some time before, you know, Sergio and Kisner and those guys get down here. So I remember just going towards the back of the range and just watching him stay loose and watching him and Joe Skovrin just kind of hit balls and glance at their phone. And just, I remember kind of watching him and Joe Skaver and just kind of hit balls and glance at their phone. And just, I remember kind of just seeing what that looked like for the first time. And you know, you just had this unbelievable moment where there's thousands and thousands

of people kind of screaming your name around 17 and then 18. And then you kind of have this little respite to, to sit in it and just be like, you know, you kind of see those guys looking at each other just like, I can't believe we just did that. You know, that was, that was pretty cool. And so to see that moment was, was really fun. And then what was so cool about the playoff was like I said, the first time they did the aggregate 16, 17, 18 playoff was then it was like, all right, well there, this is all that's going on in the golf course. And so every media member is out there.

Every fan that can find a spot is out there. Sean, I remember you and I, like, uh, kind of cramming to find a spot actually even before the playoff, like being out there, uh, Dublin back for Sergio, getting to, to 17. And he makes that bomb on 17, which is like maybe the loudest. I've ever heard that hole until Ricky stuffs it in the playoff. I think we took a selfie at that moment. I don't know if you still have it. Maybe if someone's producing this, they can throw it up on the screen. But there's definitely, I remember, I should take a selfie in this moment. 2015 also was the beginning of some golf

podcasts that occasionally offer constructive criticism of the PGA Tour about how they operate. And at that time, I think the player championship was maybe a subject of some of that criticism. And I just remember honestly walking with DJ, you're walking down 17 of the car path to the base of the hill where literally everyone's gathered fueled by Mikhailov ultras and Sawgrass splashes. And they're just cheering and you're like, this is sick. I know I get what some people's maybe pushback against the players is if they have issues with the tour, let's say, but it was objectively sick.

I think that was a start, too, of the players really growing in stature and just a tournament itself. I think it's come a long way in the last decade, but I remember just being a DJ and I was like, this is objectively sick. Well I think for a long time leading up to that and again we were both working, you still are working on the tour, I was working at the tour at that time too and so it's like there was just a lot of telling everybody how great the players was you know and it's like Matt Kuchar man he was unbelievable here here we are unveiling the Matt Kuchar painting in the clubhouse of TBC Sawgrass. Isn't this hallowed grounds? You're like, yeah, okay. KJ Choi. What an unbelievable

playoff winner. Unbelievable finish. This is so great. And Tim Clark, man, what a win. And there was a lot of just telling people, beating them over the head. This is the best field in golf. This is this, you know, the tour never, I will continue to contend the tour never said publicly, like this should be a major that was, that was a lot of either behind the scenes or, or kind of conjecture of, you know, people saying the tour was pushing very hard for this to be the fifth major,

but it was a lot of people talking about the idea of the players. And that was the, I think the first moment where it was just like, Oh no, man, this no man this is This is it like this is all the things everybody's kind of been trying to sell you all packaged up finally and kind of realized and Ricky again was Other than tiger other than me like you could argue maybe even more than Rory at that point Like Ricky was the guy to deliver that with the biggest, with the biggest boom. 2015 too is peak Ricky. Like the year before he's top five in all four majors.

He wins Abu Dhabi to start, uh, 2015. Like there's the big four. I think it was of like Rory, Ricky Jason day and Jordan Spieth, I think. And at this time, like Spieth has just won the masters. So you have a 20 year old master's champion who's on ascendance. Like Ricky had done enough where like Rory had his four majors, but like Rory Ricky, there still were enough like intersections of their careers where you could kind of make a case for that. I don't know if you call it a rivalry,

but at least like a competitive like interplay, if you will. And then, well, and then you sprinkle in Sergio too, right? Like that, that I think that's a really good example of how you can get competitive like interplay, if you will. And then, well, and then you sprinkle in Sergio too, right? Like that, that I think again, is just one of those things that just makes the whole cocktail a little more potent, right? Like you kind of need a, you kind of need a villain a little bit. Sergio hadn't won the Masters yet. He had a long storied history of playing really freaking great golf at the on his own, you know, what, in pretty, in pretty frequent succession.

And so like, I don't know what you remember, Sean, but I remember maybe half and half the audience, just like half, half the audience. And so he was kind of in the mode of starting to step on his own, you know, what, in pretty, in pretty frequent succession. And so like, I don't know what you remember, Sean, but I remember maybe half and half the audience, just like half, in pretty frequent succession. And so like, I don't know what you remember, Sean, but I remember maybe half and half the audience,

just like half the crowd kind of not Sergio fans very vocally and half the crowd just like, you gotta hand it to this guy. And that made for a really interesting thing. And so then Ricky just kind of becomes the hero in perspective to that. And so it's just, yeah, I don't know. This event kind of invented Kevin Kisner too, I feel like.

I was going to say that Kevin Kisner was not Kevin Kisner at this point. This was kind of like the start of Kevin Kisner, who's like at this point, early thirties, hasn't won on tour, like good college career. Then he like got the shanks on a nationwide tour. He's considering quitting. He rebuilt his swing with John Tillery. And like, this is the start of like, his they're actually having success on tour until then, I think he'd been up and, you know, back and forth a four a player between corn fairy and the PGA tour. But like he was wearing Bobby Jones apparel in the playoff.

I noticed, which I feel like he bought that at maybe a Costco. I don't know, but this is, uh, Kevin isner may not be on NBC today. It's not for this tournament. Truly. That's true. Yeah. What I mean, what happens if that putt goes in? If Kisner, Kisner makes that putt on 18. I honestly have thought about that. I've watched it a few times. I mean, it's such a pure putt. Like this is such an absolutely good putt. It still seems like insane that it didn't didn't go in., there's a great presser with him and he's like, holding his baby daughter who now has got to be, you know,

12 or 13 or something. And he's like, yeah, it was 100% in with like a foot to go. Uh, I dunno. I mean, it's, it's fascinating to think about like how different the legacy of that tournament is. I think if Gizner wins or, you know, I mentioned in the essay that I did, if, if Ricky's ball takes like a hard bounce in the playoff and goes into the water because there are two putts for the win, it's such a deflating moment to like such an otherwise exciting day that it's just a totally different feeling. But because it Ricky's, you know, pushes that wedge just a hair

and it checks up and spins. It's like one of the great moments of all time. And I feel like you can point to four or five moments from that day, where it's like, I mean, the one we haven't mentioned yet is Ricky shot into 16 in regulation, which like, definitely should have been in the water. Right? Like that he got not only did he catch, which like, I'm glad we're past the days of like our woods being different colors.

Like I loved a certain company that only makes their drivers black and their woods black. Like, yeah, man, like that way you don't know if the players playing our most recent model. Like they just know the brand on their hat and they see the playing a black driver. So like the fan doesn't know, but if you make it orange and blue and white and red, like fans know if you're using orange and blue and white and red like fans know if you're using the latest stuff or not like that's true I'm glad that phase has passed the other one that I had forgotten about until I kind of started

reading some stuff about this again was just as Sergio missed 15 putts inside 10 feet that week I mean that sounds on brands like he makes one of those any ways the golf tournament I mean the surgeon and I was major yet either so anytime a guy with two players and no majors, it just almost adds more to the like, and what on your achieving career this has been, that this guy does not have a major. He gets two years later. What do you guys remember about the most overrated golfers poll that came out in SI that week?

It's funny now, cause like, I mean, really like, when the guy had, it was peak Ricky, like, like I said, he's a top five in all four majors. He'd won an Auburn like, I mean, really like, when the guy had, it was peak Ricky, like, like I said, he's top five in all four majors. He'd won in Abu Dhabi. He was a top 10 player in the world. So like, it's hard, like it's hard to call him overrated when he's a top 10 player.

If he was 60th in the world, sure. I don't, you know, kind of like maybe the hoodie debate that comes on later. I just feel like that was an era of golf where man, which is funny because Johnny Miller wore plaid pants, but just his clothes are too bright and everyone just likes him because clothes are orange. There's a lot of oxygen on that for some reason. That was the big debate I think in golf fashion back then was, you know, how bright is too bright. You know, I wrote an

article on Ricky in 2012 and quoted some of the commenters on other Ricky articles we had, people calling him a clown and the court jester and whatever. And I don't know, I get the pushback to like, hey, he's really marketable. But like, he was still a 20, I don't know how old was he? Probably late 20s, mid 20s then player who's top in the world. 26, yeah. Maybe 25. It just felt like that was like a reflexive answer when people ask what overrated, because it's hard to call him that at that point.

Also knowing magazine publishing cycles, I mean that interview might've taken, or that survey might've taken place in like last November or something. 100%. It also is just, I mean, it was designed in a lab though, right? I mean, it just is the perfect sports argument for somebody who, you know, maybe watches the four majors and maybe a handful of other tournaments. Like, I mean, I would almost say, I don't know if the majority of golf fans felt that

way, but I think large, large portion of people sitting on a bar stool after a Sunday morning round of golf, I'm sure would feel that same way, right? Just cause it's a, it's a perfect take to have when somebody's not winning. Hopefully, solid doesn't listen to this, uh, but because I don't want to give him any credit, but the, you know, Ricky's the perfect kind of the original big tone, right? Of like, dude, he, he played well enough to win a lot of times. And, and sometimes you get that bounce on 16 and sometimes you don't remember him blowing a lot of golf tournaments. You know, I remember it happened. I can neutral a lot. I remember the Phoenix open. Yeah. Oh yeah.

I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that.

I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that.

I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember bed. I don't remember him. I don't remember him blowing a lot of golf tournaments. You know, I remember it happened. I can neutral a lot. I remember the Phoenix open. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what you're saying. There was a, there was a Memorial also, I think where he played with tiger. I just remember Tiger holding the pop shot and yeah, and Scovrin just saying to her like what had just happened. Um, I feel like that was another good, another bad one for Ricky. But I think honestly, if Ricky hadn't laid

up as scenics in like 2010, I think the narratives was it would be totally different. I mean, that layup was so polar. It was like the most polarizing layup since like chip back in 1983. Which I read about that one. I remember reading about that one. And I'd go back and look, I'm like, guys chip back lost by like, for sure, you're gonna try to like like max out a three would catch it on the screws and you might make Eagle one in a thousand times. He loses by two instead of like, what are we doing?

I think chip back got so fucked by the golf writers of that day. It was just like such an easy, you know, somebody shits on him. One of the other players, Sully and I did that recap and one of the other players was really kind of, uh, kind of crappy too. It was mostly Johnny Miller though, who kind of like just completely, or excuse me, not Johnny Miller. Uh, who was the fricking masters, uh, announcer then, uh, it wasn't Vern. Um, it was, I guess it was a Venturi.

It was Venturi who really kind of like set the narrative of like, oh, this guy's a pussy. Like, what are you doing? And it was just so unfair to chip back. Like it's, it's not like it was super close and even it's just, you know, and I'm Rick Riley dunked on him. I think Jen Jenkins all over him. It was just kind of anyway, not fair. Well, I can describe to me the circumstances of the, of the Phoenix one, because I don't remember that. It's 15, the par five where it's kind of an island, but it's a very large island with like lots of fairway around. There's a lot of room to miss. And he probably had like,

I think he was between clubs, which you know, you can only bust a three wood so far and you don't really want to finagle a two iron or you want to faggle three wood or try to bust a two iron. And he laid up I think think Hunter may hand those peak hunter may end 2010. You know, that was, he was the guy or one of the guys, which we need to get into talking about the overrated golf boys. Cause that definitely polarized people. And so he just laid up, he probably lost by one or two. I remember I was a golf league at the time I was at the Bob Hope the next week

and my editors like, you know, we should probably have a call in with players reacting to Ricky's layup. I was like, this, this feels too far. And I mean, maybe I should be more. Can you imagine writing a column about that now? Like, what a dream. I mean, maybe I should be more confrontational with the players. But I'm like, man, if you're two 30 out, you know, the great lies, there's water in front of the green. You don't feel comfortable hitting it. Like I'm not, man, if you're two 30 out, you know, the great lies, there's water in front of the green. You don't

feel comfortable hitting it. Like, I'm not gonna say you should. I mean, yeah, I always felt that too, just asking players questions after rounds or whatever, just the minute chance that somebody could ever just flip it and be like, why don't you fucking hit that shot, man? I can't know you're I don't. Yeah, I mean, I definitely can. You probably had a better two than I did. You know, if Ricky doesn't even pull off the shot, like I take his word for it, like I don't, I don't know.

It's probably pretty good at this. I will say in other sports, like there's enough, like kind of, I don't want to say this, like jackass media, like people who are just like, yeah, but like, why would you throw that interception? Like, why don't you throw that? Like just throw a deep post. Those kind of, even if there's like smart football media,

there's enough like kind of like bro-ish dumb football media. And it's sometimes it might be like local media. Sometimes it might just be like clown ass people who are credentialed for whatever reason, that those questions get asked regardless. And I think golf probably it's like a little bit more elevated in terms of like, yeah, like I get it. There's no way you can hit that shot.

It's what those questions don't get asked quite as much as they do in some of the other sports. I can't wait for football media, Twitter to come after you after this pod post. There's so many, there's so much football media. Yeah, exactly. I think too, I think it's like there's, there's 700 people covering a Super Bowl, you know, at minimum, uh, there's, you know, there might be a hundred people covering, you know, a major,

it's just like a larger pool that you're drawing from. So you're going to have like the dumber questions. Well, the thing with golf too is like, you know, there's not roster moves to question and like really like the layup is one of the few times you can question the play calling. Like you don't know if you know when a guy's hitting approach shot, you're like, well, maybe he was aiming at the pin. Maybe he's aiming 30 feet, right?

You can't question his target. You don't know what his target was. But like when it's very obvious, like, or he's going to go for it or lay up, like that's one of the few times you're like, I know what the choices are. I know what he chose. And so I can now criticize or question it. Well, I think there's also something interesting here too. And maybe this is a bit of a reach, but it's the big dissonance between

the big dissonance in a lot of this conversation too, I think, and it is kind of relevant somewhat if you squint to the the layup stuff is Ricky the guy on the magazine cover versus Ricky the actual person, you know, and, he had all the talent in the world. He had all the, all the prerequisites to be the next dude. You throw in all the fashion stuff, you throw in the dirt bike stuff, you throw in all the, you know, like this guy on paper, man, this guy is the, he's the guy he's, he's the swaggiest guy ever. He's going to be a marketing machine. He's going to be like, you know, Jeremy, Jeremy McGrath on the PGA tour. And then in reality, like it's not that I've spent, you know, years with the guy, but like I spent

enough time with him behind the scenes where like you talk to him, you're like, oh, he's kind of, you know, in a very, like almost complimentary way, like pretty boring, low key, you know, dude that just kind of runs pretty incredibly laid back guy, basically. And I think those two things were always a little bit at odds with each other. When you talk to other players, especially, right? It was like this guy's not this like big brash, aggressive type of dude.

I think when he was young, he probably played that way. But then like any player, like you get beat up by pro golf, you get beat up by close calls. And I just think it's fascinating. I think that disconnect is the most fascinating thing about Ricky. I know that's kind of the crux of probably what you got at Kev, but yeah. Well, he's just kind of a quiet, like, you know, non-controversial person. Like he just like really, he wants to be like kind to people. Like I think that's what's interesting. I think Ricky's like, probably like one of the nicest people who's a professional athlete. Doesn't necessarily mean the most

interesting person, but just genuinely a very polite... And you can see why the crux of it is, as I had a line in the essay, is he's kind of like a skateboard shop at the mall. Like sort of rebellion on one hour. Very safe. Zoomies. Yeah. I mean, I got my chain wallet at the mall, but. Yeah, I was able to sort of like, you know, I was able to sort of sell rebellion without actually being like all that controversial and edgy.

Which, you know, who's interested in that the PJ tour. I mean, is that, is that, is there anything more created in a lab to, to sell hospitality tickets than exactly what you just said? You know, it's, it's, it's fascinating. Guys, how loud was it on 17 when Rick hit that shot in the playoff? I mean, I think it was loud. You can't hear, like you just can't hear each other. DJ standing next to each other. You can't hear what the other person's saying at all. Yeah, I mean,

it's unbelievable. Like I don't know. I don't know. Like I don't know how you would top it. Right. I mean, other than Tiger making an ace in his peak, maybe like I but it was pretty maxed out. I don't know how it can get much louder. Well, one of my favorite parts about that call is Johnny Miller going, they're going crazy. People are going crazy out here. And then the, the one in the, like the, the last one, you know, cause he did it three times on that day. It's like the, the last one,

the call from Raj, you know, who's, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And he just sticks it to four feet. How about that one, Raj? Is it okay now? Raj? Oh, well, I went with a, the chemistry of those, like those three was really, really great. Like, you know, obviously the whole team, but just, you know, when you get Gary and Johnny and then Hicks and just all of them just bang, bang, bang. And we're good together. Yeah. Uh, guys, why do you think Ricky was never able to be that dude that we saw on Sunday? Or was he that dude again at the 2019, 18 Masters? And Patrick Reed just kind of survived. Uh, because

he was really, really good that Sunday, the Masters, but what, why, what kept him from kind of producing this magic more often? I think one of the big things to help you not really contention until he gets to like, until he's in 16 fairway and then he makes the eagle. So you're not thinking about winning. You don't have any of the pressure. And then you're kind of on the free money thing of like, I really shouldn't even be in this playoff to be honest. I could have gone in the water on 16. So I think there's part of that. And I do like, you know, I don't want to get into like a skip Bayless type situation, but like, you do wonder if like Ricky's niceness and not wanting,

you know, he's not this brash like guy that, you know, maybe the, yeah, the outfits and motocross stuff people thought he might be like, I don't want to say he's like too nice to win, but I, maybe there is that like, just you play the percentages a little bit. It's kind of like they, like we talk about their debate with like Rory of how like Rory plays more conservatively and that's made him this great, like super consistent majors guy, but then also it cost him at St. Andrews and LACC. And so do you have to just like hit the shot at certain moments or do you play the math and you know, the easiest way to put it is was he too nice to win a bunch and you know, not just like comportment, but also like playing style where he's like, I'm not going to go into a bunch of flags. I'm a smart player. I don't know. I don't

have a great answer. Sean, you probably have a better perspective on this. But if I'm squinting, if I'm trying to come up with an actual thoughtful answer here, I remember he always made too many big numbers. He made so many bird I remember he always made too many big numbers. He made so many birdies and he always made too many big numbers and that's just a good way to not win. That's a good way to get in contention but keep yourself from winning. But that also feels like his default natural setting is I'm going to let it rip. I'm going to be the guy who shoots 62. I'm going to be the guy who is firing at flags. And I think almost when you become like, I'm playing in big tournaments, week

after week, after week, you have to kind of start coming back to the field a little bit and you got to almost start thinking like the way you just described. And I need to play a little more conservative and I need to erase these big numbers. And I almost wonder if that took away some of the, I don't know, cliche alert, but like the swashbuckling, the I'm going to just go for it. And maybe I catch it on a peak week and maybe I do break through and I'm going to lose a lot more than I'm going to win anyways.

But maybe I have four, five, six, 10, 12 weeks where it does all pay off and the stars do align and I do beat the field because my best is that good. I think that's a fair case you can make. I think this sports talk radio case is exactly what Sean said. And if I was distilling it down to a sound bite, it's like, man, I don't think the guy who gives that putt at the writer cup to lose is a killer straight up. Like, I don't know how you give that putt. A way, if you are a ruthless sociopath, you're not going to be able to do that.

You're not going to be able to do that. You're not going to be able to do that. You're not going to be able to do that. You're not going to be able to straight up. Like, I don't know how you give that putt away if you are a ruthless sociopathic killer like Tiger and Phil and you know, all the other greats of our golf. Interesting thing too, from a game standpoint is like one of the appeals for Ricky from like the golf nerd was like he was this super field player. Like he had a very unique golf swing because he grew up playing like with cut downs and so and clubs that were too long for him and so he'd like take it

inside and loop it and like it's just a very unique action but then he had back trouble pretty early in his career and so he had to switch his swing and it's much more conventional now and I wonder if part of that DNA that led to that early success was like he just had this very natural swing that was his swing he. He owned it. He loved to shape shots. And in order for longevity, he had to kind of move away from that and play golf with a different swing that wasn't the one that he had grown up with that he had refined and that he fully knew and fully owned. I have no, that's a total guess, but I could see that because so much of what he was early on was this guy with

a unique swing. And he just, he played golf, like he was the epitome of like playing golf versus playing golf swing. And then he had to, for health reasons, you know, maybe play golf swing a little bit and bounce around different teachers and change things up. Yeah. It's interesting looking to like, he, it obviously went away from the loopy kind of like flat swing and but Charmin got him sort of more upright. But then like he and butch kind of break up after butch calls him like a Kardashian essentially like what red meat for like all the, you know, sort of critics out there that just use the word. Do you want to be a Kardashian or do you want to be a pro golfer? And then he kind of goes back and he like tries to, you know, till he tries to kind of like get

some elements of his old swing again. And it's like, I think you can just he kind of goes back and he like tries to, you know, till he tries to kind of like get some elements of his old swing again. And it's like, I think you can just get kind of lost in the sauce a little bit. Which honestly might be my favorite thing is like guys just get lost in their own heads. Just like such a, like horrifying, like, but also fascinating journey that, uh, that like tiger convinced people like, Oh yeah, like this is, this is easy. You can just kind of like completely rebuild your swing. And man, there's so many, the graveyard of good golfers who try to rework their swing. Well, and I think like the other thing is like peaks are only so long, right? To that exact point, there's so many outside things, whether it's golf swing injuries, mental stuff, like whatever

that can derail you. And when you look back at a career, it's so easy to look at this, you know, a three year window and just be like, oh, well like that was the peak. Like I think I, Sean, I feel like we've talked about this in the past, but it might've been Martin Keimer. The Harrington window? Yeah, Harrington said it to Harrington.

That's who it was. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Where it's just like, man, that's, why didn't I win more majors? Well, like that was the peak. Like, what are you talking about? Like that was the best I ever played. I was better than everybody else over those 18 months, two years, you know,

whatever. And how can you like, how unfair is it to really expect much more than that? Which again is where I am just so impressed by Tiger Rory. Now Scotty is on that trajectory. Dustin Johnson, like these guys who are just like, Oh, I'm just going to be pretty good and have a chance to win a ton of tournaments for 15 years. Like that's so rare, man. That's so rare. Winning, it can be a crutch, but like winning is so hard. Like I think of like Ludwig at the Genesis, like he's a top five player in the world.

He had to make a hole in one, which rarely happens, and he won the tournament by one shot. Like if he doesn't make a hole in one, he's got to obviously think he can maybe play out differently. But if he doesn't make a hole in one, he's in a playoff and he might lose that playoff. Like winning is so hard, it took a random event for a top five player in the world to win an event earlier this year.

I think too that- And then for the people who are watching that tournament, looking at the guy who finished second, a big hand up, both hands up here. You know, you look at the guy who finished second, he just doesn't have it, man. He's just not a killer. Just doesn't want it enough. Just doesn't want it. Maybe you should start practicing.

Guys, Ricky's only 36. Is there any chance that he could have a late career resurgence like Justin Rose or Lee Westwood or dare I say Phil Nicholson. I think so and this is not a knock at all. The numbers aren't great right now unfortunately you know looking at like he was outside the top 120 in Strow's Gain Off the T approach and around the green and honestly like Ricky was a great putter during his prime. That's the most baffling thing to me is like, he's just is not a good putter anymore when he was such a pure putter back in the day. I think and this is not a he doesn't want it enough take but I think like Ricky is seems

like a very content person. I think he loves being a dad. Like I think the guys he talked about are like maniacs. Like Justin Rose is a competitive maniac who like is still obsessed with getting better golf. And Ricky might be, but like I also think he also is really happy being a dad and yeah you might practice an hour less a day because you want to go hang with your kids which is a totally justified like decision and that's not a knock at all. But could he turn around like sure is it going to be hard? I think so because you've talked about a guy it's not overly long which that always helps kind of extend careers when you have the length to I think Ricky's contentment is a knock against that case.

Yeah. I think that's totally fair. I think truth serum, I'm guessing he would probably give you the same answer on that. And I think what's the other thing that I truth serum, I'm guessing he would probably give you the same answer on that. And I think what's the other fascinating thing and again, Sean, I'm with you, like this is not a knock. It's just a fact is Ricky made so much money on and off the golf course. Like it's just, it's a different era, right? Then, you know, Justin Rose even came up in that era of watching guys win majors at older ages and watching, you know, guys extend their careers and the peaks were,

the peaks of people's careers were much older. And, and, you know, I'm sure he's got a little bit of that, of that in his DNA, but I mean, look at the game now. Like we keep bringing up Ludwig and, and, you know, look at Luke Clanton and look at like a lot of these younger guys, man, it's just going to be so much harder to stay relevant at that age, especially as speed starts to drop, especially as you can't practice as much. It's just, it's not a knock. It's just, yeah, it's somewhat unrealistic. And then you also throw in like,

oh, by the way, I have, you know, X million dollars in the bank from doing every ad humanly possible. It's like, it's not a huge incentive to, uh, you know, unless you really, really, really want to be that guy that's like, I'm not going down without winning a major. Uh, which I don't know if Ricky is like to your point. I think he's pretty comfortable in his own skin. Going back to the money thing, I think that's the crux of the overrated thing was the guy was jealous of how much money he was getting. Yeah. Yeah. I have four wins. Like I should be making more than he did. Like as if like it's just this

purely performance based like, oh I want more than Ricky. I should be making this much endorsements. It's like it's a complicated formula. So I think that was probably part of it. And honestly like the great thing about that win too is like that was the Ricky that maybe everyone hoped he was of the bad boy, Bodo Cross. He kind of was that week, because then he wins and he can be like, yeah, take that survey and stick it where the sun don't shine basically.

It was a week where you can actually kind of get that reaction from him, because he was salty about it, understandably so. And so it was kind of cool, because it was a side of Ricky that I think we wanted to exist and wanted to wheel into existence. And like it existed that week. DJ, I'm going to give Sean a pass on this one,

but was this peak PGA tour? Like non-major PGA tour. I think, yeah, like when you're, when you're talking about the PGA tour is different than, you know, peak pro golf, probably, right? And so I think from a PGA tour is different than, you know, peak pro golf probably. Right. And so I think from a PGA tour perspective, I don't know how, I don't know that it was going to get too much better than this. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that. One is the fact that Tiger, you know, was player of the year in what 2013 still like very relevant,

you know, even, even with injuries, it was still kind of that, like now when he comes back and plays an event, it's, I think everybody kind of keeps one eye on him and it's like, Oh, you know, let's see, let's see what he does, but no expectations. Glad he's out there walking, you know, whatever. Whereas here, I think every time he even threatened to come back, it was stop everything. This is a huge deal, which I think just brings a lot of juice. Right. And then you have all these kind of runoff stories that feel bigger because of that. And then you throw in, you know, Rory went into majors the year before you throw in all the Ricky stuff we've been talking about. You throw in Jordan speech, you throw in Dustin

Johnson, you throw in all of these guys that like, it was just a really fun group of different players, different playing styles. A lot of guys that were just in the right time at their careers, you know, it was like you had a lot of, you had a lot of characters that had kind of proven enough already to be like main characters on the stage, if that makes sense. There was there wasn't like it's weird. Like there was a dominance kind of parody where you knew that there was four, five, six, seven guys, but there wasn't like a,

it's either this guy or I'm fucking uninterested type of parody. It's just, it just like a perfect storm of re and then you throw in all the media stuff and people getting energized by social media and finding that community. And it just, it's hard to beat, man. A lot of factors that all kind of coalesced at once. It was a period too, where the tiger vacuum was filled by a lot of compelling young characters, like 2010, 2011, when he wasn't on the stage, like that was not fun.

You look at the world number ones at the time and like, that was less compelling. Like 2015 tiger shooting 80 Chambers Bay. He's coming off of microdyssectomy Like he's completely non-competitive and he can fill it with Rory and Jordan and, um, and Ricky. And so the tiger, like the JT was on the corn parlor that year. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe.

No, no, he, he played really well in this, in this players. Uh, he, he shot like 65 in the third round of this players. I remember. Yes. He ultimately didn't wasn't in the mix in the end, but he was like two shots off of Chris Kirk's lead at the start of the fourth round. So I think there were I mean, God, maybe this is Mandela effect or something, but I feel like there was legitimate columns written at this time and then around like the big three, big four stuff that people were like, man, we were so worried about this tiger vacuum and we were so worried about what golf was going to do. Like, look at this scoreboard, look at this leaderboard. Like any questions golf is justified, which sounds like so silly now looking back on it, but it's, that's how

it felt, man. At that time. Yeah. Guys, I'm going to close with this. Uh, during the research of this podcast, I realized that this was a, the year of the Chris Kirk bathing his two young sons, perhaps everything changing or perhaps nothing will change or gift to you. This glorious madness. Uh, did either of you guys, you probably didn't see the glorious madness as it ran early in my dove. If you're watching on TV earlier, or did you catch it after TC recorded it on his phone and sort of saved it like an artifact for everyone?

I don't think I caught it till years later when he posted it like in memoriam looking back. I don't know. I don't think you can put videos on Twitter at a time. Like I remember that year, each and I find Scotland to be open and standard we've got done playing braid hills which is highly recommend in Edinburgh. So good. And January, we just got done playing Braid Hills, which is highly recommended here in Edinburgh. So good. And then we were up in the hotel, like he was posting screenshots of the PJTor.com leaderboard and like shot link trails to Twitter.

Like that's how we communicate on the social media at the time. So I caught this one years later when Tron posted it. Yeah, I remember seeing him out on the set. Like they would always have that set right behind the clubhouse at TPC Sawgrass. And I remember being like, Oh, that's, that's different. He's, he's out here this week, but don't, don't remember seeing that live. I think that was a, you know, a truly trans gift, gift to a gift to us. I love it because it's like an artifact that he saved, uh, like an unearthed for

everyone, uh, which otherwise I think would have been completely memory hold and we would talk about it like, wait, did he really this glorious madness? I mean, there's like an alternate universe where there's like a media company that's not called no laying up. It's called like this glorious madness. Be great. Well, thank you guys. This has been an absolute delight to relive one of my favorite tournaments of all time. And, and who knows, maybe we'll get another one this week at the players. Well, thank you guys. This has been an absolute delight to relive one of my favorite tournaments of all time. And who knows? Maybe we'll get another one this week at the players. You never know. Hopefully. Thanks for having me. Thanks. KVB. For Fandle must be 21 older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with

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