No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 975: NLU Personal Golf Spotlight - Ben Hotaling

Episode Date: March 21, 2025

The NLU personal golf spotlight returns as Ben "Hollywood" Hotaling takes center stage. Ben takes us through his introduction to golf, his work starting his own backyard golf course - Brough Creek National - and his appreciation for golf course architecture through his NLU travels. NYT Article on Brough Creek National Support our sponsors: Titleist The Nest Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining The Nest: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at nolayingup.com/join Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. Johnny, that's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different? Better than most. Expect anything different. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Lying Up podcast. My name is DJ back with another personal golf spotlight. We've been doing a couple of these episodes.

We did one with Neil. We did one with Tron kind of just going around, interviewing a couple members of the team and kind of talking about our own golf games a little bit. We figured the best way to do this is to put one person under the bright lights and, and really go spelunking into their, their psyche and, and here to cave dive with me is my guy, big Randy. Randy, how are you? Yeah, I'm great. Thanks Deidre. Excited to examine our subject today.

Let's let's go deep where, uh, where it's dark and there might not be much oxygen. Well, if you, if you watch a lot of our YouTube channel, our guests needs no introduction. He's the winner of our, our NLU club championship. He beat the absolute shit out of Solly at the new course last year, uh, at St. Andrews. That's of course our guy, Ben Hollywood hoteling. Ben greetings. Hi. Hello. How are you? Hey, doing fantastic. Uh, pod couldn't have came at a better time. I'm desperately looking for a pod bump given Sally's, you know, experience at the, the creator classic. I need to maintain my position up here. So, uh, this, this is perfect timing. Thank you for having me on.

Uh, anytime. Well, yeah, a lot of the listeners, you know, like I said, if you watch YouTube, you're probably familiar with Ben's game. He nukes the ball. He's a very good player plus handicap. If you listen to the podcast, you're probably not very familiar with Ben or his story or his golf game, which is kind of why we wanted to do this. So Ben, why don't we kick it off with just a little introduction? Who are you? Where are you from? What do you do at NLU? Let's just level set there. Yeah, great. So Two truths and a lie.

Name's Ben Hotaling. I live in Kansas city. I've been with Nolang up working behind the scenes, just shy of five years. This June, it's been a dream come true. So I've been a golf sicko for a long time, played since I was three or four years old. And I just truly love the game, Deitch. I love it. Well, let's do a little bit of business here on the front end, level set for the people, your golf game a little bit. What's your current handicap?

What's your current ball speed? And then as always, we're brought to you by our friends at Titleist. So I wanna ask you a couple of titles for joy questions as well, but let's start with the easy ones. Randy, I'm sorry. Let me just, Ben, if you could throw in what's

your competitive golf experience? Okay, did you? Yeah, high school golf, college golf, you know, give the people a sense of that as well. Right? Yeah. So handicap. Currently right now, Jen says plus 1.1 down a little bit. I've been as low as high, however you want to call it as a plus 2.6. You know, driver's the best, best club in my bag. Ball speed on course is kind of between 176 and 178.

The Neal Sturden ball, I can get up over 180. Um, so that's, that's kind of, you know, where I, where I make hay, but I'm trying to be a little bit more of a well-rounded player. I think my wedge game at times has been, you know, elite, and I'd like to get back to that spot. I'm sure we'll get to it later, but there's a reason why it was good at one point in time. I will say after I got into the new Titleist T100 Irons, I just become like a ball striking junkie. I'm just dying to hit, you know, hit the middle of the club face as much as possible and enjoy. I love to go practice. That's like my, my whole thing and how I've gotten better over the last three or four years is just, you know, going out

over a long lunch and just hitting irons off of whatever I can find. That's kind of my game in a nutshell. On that note, on that note, what I think is funny, Randy, I'm sure we'll get a kick out of this. Ben, I asked you one time, what's your, what's your go-to swing thought when we were at the homestead? Do you remember that? And do you remember what you said? I don't remember because it was a seminal moment for me. You're like, Oh yeah, I just, I don't know, man. I just like flush it.

I was like, Oh, okay. Oh, okay. So you don't have like just 50 things in your head that you're trying to remember? Like, no, I just, I don't know. I just, I just flush it, man. I don't know. That's, that's, thanks for reminding me. That's still, that's very much still my, my swing thought when I get up to it, as opposed to, you know, TC calling himself all the expletives, I just say, you know, go flush this one.

That's my entire, entire mission. I know that that closely aligns with how Randy attacks the game as well. Just absolutely go out there and grab it. Uh, Russell to the ground. I too love to just practice irons anywhere I can. It's just more mental reps for me. Ben, what's in the bag? What is it? What does a player of your caliber, your speed, uh, what do you game in these days?

Yeah, definitely. So I think I've got a somewhat interesting bag at the top of the bag. I have GT three, 11 degree driver. Um, the 11 degree was definitely news to me when getting fit, you know, at the ball speed, you'd think like, Oh, push it down to, you know, eight, seven. Absolutely not. Um, I did have a nine degree driver in the past and the ball actually wasn't spinning enough. Um, so it would just fall out of the air. I was gonna, you can hit those, those, they're not necessarily quackers, but they, they get out of the air. They look like they get shot out of the air, you know, leave the club at 182 and just, they fly, you know, 250. It's, it's a very strange dynamic you had going there for a while. Yeah.

So that was very odd. I would, yeah. Like you said, it's like, you know, low one eighties, but it would carry two 80 when I'd like crushed it and it just, it just, it just, it just, it just, it just, it just, it just, it just, it just, it odd. Yeah. Like you said, it's like, you know, low one eighties, but it would carry two 80 when I'd like crushed it. And it just like, that doesn't, it doesn't add up. So, you know, getting fit and whatnot got me into that 11 degree, which added a little bit of spin, kept the ball in the air longer. And as massively changed my, my ability to drive the golf ball, I come in pretty flat. so like zero, zero at impact with drivers.

So because of that, you know, the spin can be, you know, pretty much nothing with a low spin driver. So I needed to get a little bit more, a little bit more loft, a little bit more spin, keep that ball in the air. And then I go to a five wood, a GT2 five wood, 18 degrees. The reason I went that, I had a three wood last year,

but it was just like straight up, it sounds bad. It's too long, like not useful. You know, you hit a 300 yard drive and I just don't play too many, you know, 600 plus yard par five. So like there's no point in having that club. So we went ahead and went with a five wood for that second one. Then I have the seven wood, which I know is a cult classic. Hot in the streets right now. Yeah, that's great. So that's just like my floaty attacking, you know,

par fives or short par four type of club. I know Randy, you're familiar with those 140 foot apexes. Getting after it. Yeah, and then from there, right now, I have the U-Boat U-505, four iron, driving iron. That's like my go-to club. That's what won the club championship for me at Aaron Hills. Just hitting it all over the, all over the place.

So I love that thing. I can flight it low. I can hit it really high. It's a fun club. It feels like I'm cheating to be honest with you. What's a stock shot with that? Just stock apex, stock carry, stock run out type of thing. Yeah, stock shot with that 90 foot apex, 240 carry, 260 total.

It's awesome. I mean, it's a four iron. We'd sign up for that off the tee every time, I think. For sure. Absolutely. It says four iron, but it's super strong. So it's probably more like a three plus iron there. And then, yeah, I only have five irons in the bag,

which is kind of interesting. That's supposed to be sick. You know, besides my driving iron, so I go five to nine iron, and that's a T100. Everything's stock, a little upright, but everything else is pretty stock there. Love my T100s, they're fantastic. Like truly take them out of my cold,

dead hands. Then I go 46 degree pitching wedge, Vokey SM10, 50 degree gap wedge, 54 sand wedge, and 58 lob wedge. I play a little bit more bounce than the rest of the group does. I'm in a lot of the F and S grind on the wedges, which, you know, shit, I don't know. First thing I ever got fit into did the blind test, you know, Hey, don't look, go ahead and hit this. And I just love them. And I've just can't get me out of them. So that's it.

And then putter, everyone's favorite club of mine. Everybody thinks I hit like massive sweeping hook putts, which you know, I've got dated about that. massive sweeping hook putts, which I've got dated a backup that I took on. Ben Hogan with the putter. Right. Is the Phantom 7.5. So, love that thing. My first ever true mallet.

And again, not interested in changing. I want to ask too, just again, shout out to our friends at Footshore. You're a bit of a shoe guy. What's your go-to, one pair of shoes every day for the rest of your life? What do you think you're going with? Yeah. Every day, rest of your life. No question. Premier series, Wilcox, the white, white lizard. I just think they go with everything and I love them without a doubt. My go-to shoe every day of the week.

With the high socks, of course. Of course, of course. I am going to try this year. I'm going to try the quarter length. I saw Raj at the Creator Classic. They're not super high, but they're definitely not like ankle socks. I was like, damn, that looks interesting. So I'm going to try that this year. Be on the lookout for that folks, on the other YouTube channel. Randall, where do you want to take it first, my man? Well, let's get into Ben's golfing history. Ben, I had asked you to talk about your competitive experience, but

maybe this is a better place for it. How did you get into the game, earliest golfing memory, and then talk to me about any competitive experience that you've had in your life? Yeah, definitely. So I got into the game super, super young, but I wouldn't say it was like my sport when I was that young. So my grandparents, they had a couple acres in North Carolina, Raleigh, North Carolina area. And I would go into the garage and my grandma's clubs would always just be hanging there. I mean,

we're talking like real old, real small headed golf clubs. And I just remember going out there and like trying to hit it over the shed in the backyard. That was the entire goal. I didn't live in North Carolina for much of the time growing up, so we'd go back every year, every summer to visit. It was always like, can I get it over the shed this year? It just got to the point where we're hitting it over the trees over the shed. It's like, hey, you need to stop. You're going to hit the neighbor's house. Once we got to that point, I'd actually just recently moved to Lanesboro, Massachusetts, which is up kind of near Taconic. That would have been our nearest nice golf course in upstate, I guess, I don't know, Western, Northwestern Mass.

Yeah. Yeah. And I had a friend that lived right across the street. We all lived on like significant amount of property. I mean, at least a couple acres, some neighbors had significantly more, but he would just, he lived on top of a big hill and would just be hitting golf balls down the hill. And naturally got to know him and that's what we did. And that was kind of my first time like building golf courses or playing backyard golf. We would, he had this area that he took all the grass off of in the front yard, all down to dirt and would create a putting green and you'd hit past this green and then chip back onto it and putt. And that was just like what we did. And that was like summer

activity. Loved it, just played all the time And then we actually had a older neighbor down the street that, you know, saw us playing and he played in high school and would start, you know, he could drive so he'd like bring us out to courses and stuff and played in a place called Skyline in Lanesboro, Massachusetts. No idea if it still exists, hopefully. But one of those great places where it's like, you know, my parents, I think they paid like 120 bucks, and it's like all year long, all summer, go nuts, full membership at this public course. And that's kind of what we did.

So that was how I started. At that point, I tried to play a little bit of competitive golf. I think that was like the next step. Always played a ton of sports, and this was like opportunity to go in and try to play tournament golf. Did not go well. I was a massive headcase, uh, could not, you know, bring it to the course. Um, I specifically remember what would go

wrong. Oh, everything that you could imagine, right? Like, you know, you hit a bad shot and like, I'm, I'm turning around, you know, Thor hammer into the trees with my clubs. That it was bad for a long time. Bad enough that like my parents were like, yeah, we should probably go to sports psychologists at some point. Yeah, I truly just like could not chill a little bit. Yeah, 100%. It was it was bad.

Yeah, it's bleak. But like glad I went through that, you know, still still got that fire. But I have to like, you have to keep it tampered down. So yeah, I specifically remember one time, one of my first tournaments was supposed to be at Bethpage Black and just rained out, wasn't able to go. Couldn't get a peek at that while the bots took out the T-zerbs. Yeah, exactly. And it was played at a different course, but it was so wet that if you hit any grass before it would just, you know, totally roll the sod over. So there was this one kid that I played with and it was the second day and I played so

bad the first day. I was in like the worst group, whatever that was. And I was watching this kid play and he was just yelling, oh, I flubbed it all over the golf course. And I was like, I cannot, there's no way that like I play like this kid. I just got so mad. I was just like, I'm never doing it again. I'm not playing competitive golf ever again. I'm done. It's no way that like, I play like this kid, I just got so mad. I'm never doing it again. I'm not playing competitive golf ever again. I'm done. It's over. So I didn't

play for like a long time. Competitively, at least, we play in the backyard still, but wouldn't pay can play competitively. And then I moved to Connecticut and got to in middle school, had a really incredible opportunity. There's this new golf course called Lake of Isles, which is associated with the Foxwoods Casino in southern Connecticut. I lived in Preston, Connecticut, which was right down the street. This golf course was opening. It was a 36-hole facility, had a private facility, and then a public facility. They were doing something for the kids.

Every age group, they were doing a, call it a scholarship, I guess, where they would, you'd come in, you'd do a range session, kind of like a, I don't know, like a combine, I guess, where you'd go through all the different skills and the people at the resort, or course, I guess, would watch you, the pros. And then we went out and did a nine-hole tournament and actually came in and did formal interviews, like suit and tie, a whole deal. And I got selected to be a part of that, which was awesome. So I was in the youngest age group, but it basically gave me full access to the facilities and weekly lessons with their pro basically gave me full access to the facilities and weekly, weekly lessons with their pro for you know, for the whole summer. So, um, I just lived there. I just lived at that golf

course. I've never heard of anything like that. Just like a scholarship, basically just like a golf scholarship without any school associated. No, none. No, not at all. And it was just like all the southeastern Connecticut, you know, whatever they would call like best or up and coming players of different age age groups. So, you know, it was like me and some other, you know, 12 year old girl who actually like went on to like do stuff in golf. So good for her. And yeah. And then just like every age group from there,

there was, was somebody associated with it. So that was like, that was truly when it's like, okay, now I, now I'm playing golf, I'm playing golf and playing competitively. Still struggled with the mental side. The big tournament at the end of the year, end of the scholarship, I ended up finding a ball that I shouldn't have, if that makes sense, and made a 10, because I was trying to hit this ball

out of this creek for forever. And again, was just like, why am I doing this? I hate this so much. Yeah, so that got me through to high school. And then, yeah, I played all throughout high school. Played two years in Connecticut. And then I moved to Wichita, Kansas, midway through my junior year of high school.

Shout out to my parents on that one. That's a tough, tough time to go. But best thing that's ever happened to me. So that was worthwhile. Yeah. Came to Wichita, had never played in wind before. It's blowing 45 in the spring trying to play competitive golf. And I was decent. I was okay. Enough where I played two on the varsity team and made state on my own as well as with the team. So, you know, had a little bit of success, but again, it was more just like, kind of, I just wasn't quite there. Wasn't sharp.

People, people probably know you if they do know you from Brough Creek stuff, you know, you kind of became, became golf Twitter famous there. As you guys were building your own course in Kansas city, just give people an overview of what that is, if they're not familiar. And then I definitely got a couple questions about that. Yeah. So, Brough Creek National, BCN for shorthand is a seven hole golf course in Kansas City, Kansas, right on the Missouri river bluffs. It is located at my friend, Zach Brough's family home that they've owned since the eighties. It's a little three and a half acre property with a meandering

creek through the middle. And we built by hand with truly like with shovels, little seven hole golf course with six screens and seven tee boxes. And the concept was kind of based on a couple of different things, you know, one being sweetened scov with the concept of like Illuminati routings or, you know, just open play, as well as the horse course at the Prairie Club. The first ever golf trip I went on with my dad to the Prairie Club in Valentine, Nebraska. They had a par three course, I believe it's at Gill Hands.

And the whole concept was like, it's a big field and you can put the ball down wherever you want and hit to whatever green call your shot and, you know, play horse. And I just thought that that was like so brilliant. Um, and wanted to replicate that. And, uh, yeah, we ended up building. Rough Creek national. We were deep on the refuge, knowing up refuge, kind of sharing progress

and people loved it. People loved getting the updates after every weekend and would support. They would send us equipment that we needed or cash for donations and just continued to snowball. And we ended up like actually pulling it off. And I thought it was a, you know, ended up being a pretty, pretty cool project. How did it actually get started though? Like what was the actual like kind of inspiration for you know, one day there was no golf course and then eventually there was a golf course. So what like, why did that take place? Yeah, that's a great question. Honestly,

like a lot of boredom, but also just like massive inspiration. Yeah, I'd been consuming golf content, knowing up, you know, fried egg as well, learning about golf in a whole different light. Always just considered it or figured it to be competitive golf. That's the only element. Then once you guys and some others in the space had expressed that, hey, this is supposed to be fun. That's why we do it.

That was a light bulb moment for me. At that point, I've always been an outdoors person and built stuff and a lot of dirt bike jumps and stuff like that back in the day. And I've always had a place to hit balls in the backyard. My dad built me an awesome green in Massachusetts in the backyard with a net, something similar in Connecticut as well. And I had moved in with Zach into this property after college and, you know, he had this land and I wanted to play, but didn't have any money. And I asked him if

I could take down one tree. So I, you know, he said, fine. I did. And just had a good time like cutting the grass and, you know, making a little hole and doing all that. And that was great. And then I kind of shared like, oh, this would be cool if we like got across the creek and took down some more trees and made it like a little wedge range. So I posted that on the refuge. And again, people, people loved it. And then it just continued to evolve, evolve, evolve, evolve, evolve, took up all of my mental energy and time. And yeah, we just we

just kind of like did it. I don't know how else to explain it. There wasn't a moment that was like, you know, why are we doing this? What's the point? You know, it was kind of like did it. I don't know how else to explain it. There wasn't a moment that was like, you know, why are we doing this? What's the point? You know, it was kind of like, this is cool. People like this. I'm enjoying this. So let's keep going. And we did. And we got all the way through to the end. What was it like when word started getting out beyond maybe just the refuge and more to Twitter and you know, you're starting to get some visitors from all over the country, maybe even from different parts of the world and more notoriety. What was that like for

you? I mean, a whirlwind, definitely did not expect it. I was kind of hopeful that that could be the case. I mean, always in the back of my mind, it was like, I hate what I'm doing at work right now. Like I'd love to work in golf. Maybe this is gonna like be the way to get my name out there. Or, you know, somehow this is gonna turn into something either my own business or someone's gonna be interested in learning more about me.

So like that was kind of the whole thing. And I was really hopeful that it was gonna elevate like the rest of my guys as well. You know, it's kind of one of those opportunities. I have a friend that does music. It's like, hey, you know, people are like watching some of these videos, like here's an opportunity to do it. So it's like this internal motivation of like getting other people opportunities as well as myself to get out there and kind of be known

and hopefully get swooped up and taken to that next level into something that I actually love. So that was kind of the driving force more so than wanting to get this project out there. Because to be honest with you, Randy, it was tough getting calls and texts from Zach like, hey, dude, there's this random person just pulled up into the driveway. Any idea who that might be? Maybe putting the address on Google was a really stupid idea. No, no, don't worry about that guy. He's the guy that found your address on Twitter. He's cool. What else was going on in your life? Because I always am fascinated by, it seems like BCN was quite an escape from what else was going on.

No, it was the only thing. That and growing my relationship with my now wife was the only thing that mattered to me at that point. I was working in tech sales in the recruiting and consulting space. I hated it. I still have nightmares of it. Like, 100% of people have nightmares about like, you know, taking tests in school. I have nightmares about like going into that facility. It was the worst. Like I was, I was sold a bill of goods

and it was going to be this great opportunity. You can make your own paycheck, like get after it. And it was, it was not that, there was nothing, there was no opportunity as a fledgling company. And I was kind of put in a bad spot and had a bad owner and boss that was, yeah, just straight up not a nice person. And that just was tough.

So it really ground on me. So yeah, I would go in and I'd bang phones for two and a half hours, you know, from eight to 10 30. And then I would truly not work anymore and just work on BCN stuff, um, and social media stuff while that works. So it was the only thing I did and truly is the only motivation why I didn't quit or get fired earlier. So because like, you know, without the BCN stuff,

I truly don't know if I would have done anything massive waste of time. Oh, what's the hardest day that sticks out in your head from construction? What was the biggest like, oh shit, we're in over our heads type of moment? Yeah, I mean, a couple come to mind right away. First off, like once you look at the pile of trees that we had to burn, I mean, it was probably, semi trucks lined up next to each other of hardwood large logs. And it's like, oh, we got to burn all this. Somebody might notice, this is going to be crazy. So that was interesting. But the hardest day by far was sod day. Realistically, you have between 24 and 36 hours to get the sod down and watered once it's delivered or it's going to die. You can't do anything about it.

This was our biggest expense. The thing that we worked very hard to raise money for is just an absolute all-day bender, nonstop, probably 17 hours straight. Had neighbors coming out of the woodworks, friends coming out to like lift this sod and, and, you know, put it on this, this golf course is about 13,500 square feet of sod. Might not sound like a ton, but man, when you're doing it by, you know, a meter square every time, it takes a long time. It's a lot of Legos to put together to, to make those, those greens work. It's heavy too. So yeah, just like totally scraped up. Everyone's dehydrated through multiple shirts and pants.

It was just a really long, really difficult, really trying day. And then the worst part was like we were trying to do it with sprinklers from a hose, the watering, no irrigation. So we'd do all that and then we'd go look and it's like this little sprinkler trying to wet the sod that we're like desperately trying to keep alive. You know, one sprinkler at a time. So yeah, that was a tough day. That was a very, very challenging physically,

but also, you know, also mentally to make sure like, did we just, did we just really overestimate what we're going to be able to accomplish here? But you rocked them. Rocked them. It worked. I don't know how. Still to this day, I don't know how the hell it worked. Well, speaking of today, what's the current status with BCN? Yeah, great question. So I think BCN is in a place where it was always intended to be. And what I mean by that was it was built with the concept of being able to turn it on and off at any moment. We knew that this wasn't gonna be a public facility,

something that was gonna make money. We always wanted it to be free to play or if you so choose to donate, that's fantastic. But we also knew that life's gonna go on. So right now I would say it's in a dormant phase. It exists, it's alive, it works. If you gave me 10 days, I could have it back up and running. But managing it like the US Open's gonna be played out there

like we did for the first two and a half, three years, just not sustainable. So yeah, I wouldn't be like, hey, go out there, it's gonna be the best you've ever seen it. But it's one of those things, we built it with the intent of, hey, we know that this is gonna slow down. And at any moment, if we wanna have our guys out,

or if the Piper High School wants to come practice, give us a week and we can turn it back on and it'll be worth it. How many aces out there? Ooh, that's a great question. I know of four, including yours, Dej, which I know is a little touchy. Wow. Yeah.

I would count it. I would count it as well. I think it's a good story, if I would count it. I would count it as well. I think it's a good story if nothing else. But you have any out there? That's more what I was asking about. I do, I have one. Same hole, same everything, same as yours. I was actually talking on the phone when I made it,

which was very, it's just a memorable thing. I was just kinda like walking around and hit one and I was talking on headphones and it's like, oh shit, I just made a hole in one. Cool. Ben, I want to shift gears a little bit. Before we do, I want to give a shout out to the Nest, our own Nest, the Nest, NoLangups community of avid golfers. When you join the Nest, you support all of our NLU content from Strapped to KVV's Deep Dive, special projects, the Refuge,

where this whole beautiful golf course kind of was born out of. Those are the kinds of things you're supporting when you support the Nest. You also unlock access to our Nest exclusive content, which includes the monthly Nest podcast, extra videos, which Ben works very hard on producing, and every thread on our Refuge message board

and on top of the content, you get 15% off every order in the NLU Pro Shop and early access to merch drops. This week, you get your hands on our Spring NLU and Roback collection before it goes live to everyone on March 21st. Ben also started in the Pro Shop doing stuff like that when he first started.

So he knows how fast the Roback stuff goes. It's an absolute feeding for when the row back stuff goes up. So join the nest. If you want a little early access to that head over to no laying up.com slash join to get involved and join the nest big guy. Where should we go? Let's shift gears. You want to get more into, shift gears. You want to get more into, let's get more into Ben's coming of age with golf and golf courses. So Ben, I imagine maybe before Bruff Creek National was really getting up and going, what was the biggest like light bulb moment for you as far as like seeing a course, playing a course, playing a course, experiencing a course.

Like do you remember a specific moment and what might that have taught you? Yeah, honestly, like my moment was probably more like virtual than anything else. Yeah, when he saw the spear. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I don't know. I got, when he saw the spear. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, no, no, no. But like, uh, podcasts, when I got into the podcast space and it was like starting to, I've always had like a very visual mind. Like I just kind of see pictures in my head. So like when I would listen to people

talk about golf courses or you guys get back and discussing, you know, Torasauce trips or, you know, Torasauce itself, right? It's like, I was starting to understand that there are more dynamics than just like see ball hit ball down fairway hit on green. That was like a huge moment for me. That was kind of the light bulb of like, wow, this is so much more dynamic and interesting than, you know, I ever thought it could be. And you can enjoy it in many different ways. And, you know, I think I always like philosophize or philosophy, whatever, I was considered that that, you know, concept as, you know, being true. But then when I finally got to see it, at two specific places that stand out, so the Prairie Club, again, that was my first ever golf trip that I

went on with my dad, finally saw scale for the first time, just massive, massive scale. And that was like, Oh, wow, okay, this is like super fun, interesting, my dad can play it, massive scale. And that was like, oh, wow, okay, this is like super fun, interesting. My dad can play it, no problem. That was a great, great light bulb for me. And then second, I was lucky enough to get invited to Prairie Dunes. Again, thanks to like BCN stuff, chat up Ben Lippold if you're listening, for bringing me to Prairie Dunes. And that was like, okay, I understand what like a real championship golf course with firm greens, firm conditions, demanding play looks like. So those were kind of the two big ones for me in that growth and development of loving and learning about golf

courses. Has your game evolved at all as you've kind of learned more about golf courses? Like do you know what I mean? Like have you become more of a shop maker or anything like that? Or have you kind of just focused on playing one way your whole life? No, definitely, definitely has changed. I think I've learned a lot more about how to score in that. Like it's, it's truly like the only thing that brought me satisfaction through high school was like knowing that I was the longest player in my group. Um, that was it. That was, that was my whole deal. If I wasn't, then I was upset.

And now it's like, okay, that's, that's a tool, but like, that's not the whole, that's not the whole story. Now I get a lot of joy out of making putts in people's faces. Well, what I mean, as far as your, your golf game now, like what's, what's missing to ask, you know, if you could, you could ask the genie for, for one thing in your golf game, what would it be? Uh, yeah, I think it would be a go-to shot off the tee with driver and you know, second to that, like long irons, those two, two things definitely need work. I'm not up to snuff with

those two things, especially approaching the green. So would love a little bit more elevation on that five iron and more consistency in the middle of that face, Mr. Jeannie. What do you mean on the driver's side? Do you mean you want a low cut that I can rely on? Or are you saying you don't know what you're going to hit when you walk up to each T. No, I think right now I've got one speed and that's all the way, um, with driver. I would love to have like a low cutter as opposed to a towering draw. Uh, it doesn't, that doesn't play all the time. Um, just that,

that kind of anxiety that you get of like, Hey man, like, I like, I really need this one. I need to be able to approach the green on the next shot. I don't have that with driver. Like I could lay back, but also it's like, I'm not a super great long iron player and my advantage is distance. So I want to push it down as far as I can.

So if I had like a little, you know, squeezer hot cut with the driver, I would love to be able to play that on command. Okay, let me ask, I think this is a good time for it. As you think about golf and your golf game, do you consider yourself more artist or mechanic? As sweet as it would say to want to be more artist, I think I've been training to be more of a mechanic.

So I think, I don't know, that's a really tough one. I feel kind of stuck in the middle. Because again, when I practice, I'm practicing all the shots, all night windows. That's what I do when I go out and practice. But I don't really do that on the course. I kind of just want to hit my shot, which is, you know, just a, ideally just a falling left high draw. So I don't know, probably more mechanic if

you, if you had to, you know, put my feet to the fire. Um, though I would love to be an artist. Well, we did, we did a video with you and, uh, your coach Maureen Farrell, uh, last year, which was awesome. It's one of my favorite kind of instructional type videos we do. Cause she was just very clear at illustrating concepts and demonstrating how to, uh, you know, how to do different things. I'm curious if you could just talk about the process of, is that the first like real consistent coach you've had? And if so,

what is that experience been like? I mean, what, what did you, where did you start and where are you at now and how has it evolved? Yeah, absolutely. Maureen is definitely my first consistent coach, really first consistent golf anything that I've had in my life. So it's been amazing being with her because she's super invested in my success, which is great. And that's why I wanted to do that video with her because she's just like very plugged in, which is awesome. It has dramatically changed things on many fronts because like the first time that I ever went in and saw her, it's just like the most standard stuff,

alignment, where's your club head facing, how do you look at the pin? That just basic stuff. Oh, interesting. I never I never thought about that stuff. That's that's that's a great note, which is how I always go when I go to a lesson. They're like, have you ever thought about like how your grip sucks? I'm like, no, not really. Have you ever thought have you ever thought about like how you watch, like look at the golf ball?

That's something that gets me from time to time. Like, am I actually watching the golf ball or am I just like kind of zoning out and have this general idea of the ball? That's maybe one for you, Ben, next time with coach. 100%. I'll bring that up. But no, like, seriously, that was that in and of itself was like, oh, okay, wow. Like I had a lot of low hanging fruit to work on. So we did that for the first month. And then it's just this incremental stuff. It's like after three lessons, she gets a look at you of like, this is where we're trying to go. And we're going to get there by these little steps and working through those little steps from... I would try to go in and get a check

out once a month during the middle of golf season. It's kind of my goal. It's always like working up to something bigger, which is great for me because I like to come away with like one thing to work on. That's what we've done. Yeah, I started going to her, I think, at a 1.5, something like that handicap, like solid player, but not going to compete for anything. Yeah, over the last two and a half, three years, I've dropped that handicap and stayed there consistently. I think this year is going to be a big year for us. We got some stuff working. We got a full team that we're working with now and working on some of the stuff that my body may have not been able to do in the past that, in her mind, we're trying to get to the point where we have one

bad shot around. It's like, okay, great. Let's do it. What's the end goal? Like what do you practice for? What's the big carrot at the end of the, you know, or let me phrase that differently. What's the phrase I'm looking for? What's the big motivation? Yeah, what's what's the big motivation for you to

work so hard? Is there one thing that you're like, this is what I want to accomplish? Not really, which I think is like, is something I'm searching for. I'm very aware that that is like kind of silly to just like, you know, go work for nothing. But truly, truly big, I like really just enjoy it. Like I really like it. It gives me a thrill. Like it's you know, my wife would tell you like, once I get the opportunity to go play and I can like get it out of my head, my day just gets so much brighter. Like I am so much in a better head space. I'm not thinking about it anymore.

So when I don't, then it's like, you wish you wouldn't hit balls today. It's like, yeah, that is what I'm thinking about. So I know that's weird, but like that's just kind of how I like clear my head space. I don't think that's weird at all. I've even just over the last month or two, I put like a hitting net in my garage

and now it feels like the fucking telltale heart in my house where I'm just like, man, I can, it's right down there. I could go hit balls right now if I wanted, I could just, I could go hit wedges for, for 12 minutes. You know, I'm working on this little takeaway thing. I'm working on this little releasing. I could just go do it right now if I wanted it. I know, I know exactly what you mean. I feel, I feel very similarly, but yeah. So like that's where it's always been, but also big. There's like, there are some things

that I would like to accomplish, and I think this year is gonna be the first year that I'm putting a big step forward in doing that. So one thing I'd love to do, I wanna win the Kansas Mid-Am. That's like number one. Hell yeah. See, I love that goal. Yeah, let's put that in writing somewhere where you see it every day. Yeah, that, and then I let's put that, let's put that in writing somewhere where you see it every day.

Yeah, that and then I want to qualify for the US midamp. I'd love to play a USGA event. I think that that's one of those things where it's like, you know, you're on your deathbed looking back what you accomplish. It's like, fuck, that's, that's a big one. Like you were, you were not just like a good golfer, like you were like one of the one of the best, you know, amateur adult golfers in the country at that moment in time.

And that sounds amazing to me to be able to check that off. God, it gets me fired up, Ben. I love that. I love that. It's so possible. It's so doable for you. It is. It is.

And then I think it is. I think it is. I need to get more consistent, but yeah, I think it's possible. I think my top end stuff is just as good, you know, as a lot of those people out there that are playing in those events. And then the big one, which I've mentioned before, and I know Sally, like Laffby out of the gym of I want to play in the senior US Open.

How sick would that be? Oh, yeah. That's a long night. Oh, too. What do you like? Twenty three. Yeah, no, I got 18 years left. I used to have that dream. And now that I'm in my forties, I'm realizing, no, it's not real. It's not going to happen. I love weirdly think that it's, it's like going to take a career amount of time to like get to the point where that's like even a possibility. So like, I don't think that that's like a crazy thing to think

about right now. I truly think I need to get some lickens out there in the competitive golf space before I can be ready to come up to that moment and accomplish it. Have you ever done US Open locals? I haven't. No, no. I got really spooked. I caddied in the US Open local and my horse ended up getting the letter.

So I got really spooked about that. What happened? What's the been the caddy? Yeah, I just, you know, we just had a tough back nine lost a couple balls and yeah. I didn't think anybody actually got the letter. I thought it was a threat. I thought that was like an urban myth.

No it's very real. For those that don't know, and I hate to air out your friend, but the USGA allegedly, the urban myth we're talking about is like, if you play the USGA qualifier and you just put up a pretty unserious score, they send you a letter that's kind of like a, hey, please don't do this anymore. We're trying to be serious over here. You're not welcome back. Yeah.

Uh, it must be 10 over, 10 over like the slope or something like that or the rating of the course. And then going to send you the letter. God, that's so sick. Yeah. I can see how that would be in the back of your head. That's, that's pretty, uh, that's a pretty seminal moment to see. You can't really forget about that one. Open it up that way. Right. Right. But also like, don't be a wuss. Go, just go do it. Go back to Marine for a second. What you mentioned kind of going from a one point something to a plus two point something. What was the biggest change?

Ball striking. It's just all ball striking, man. And like having something to practice for. I think that like, yeah, it's just the going and just having your little alignment stick and just going and hitting balls doesn't really do a whole hell of a lot. But when you have an intent and there's something that you're working on, you have that one thing that you take away from that lesson

and you go and grind it for a month, you come out the other side just so much more equipped to react on the golf course, just like so much more equipped to like, react on the golf course, which I think is super valuable. And it always drives me nuts. That's like the number one thing that I hate is these people that come up to the come up to the member guests and like, yeah, she got a lesson last week. I'm ready to go.

It's like, bro, that's not how this works. You need to go grind that thing for a month before you can even like think about that being useful. Her giving me like that motivation, giving me something to go and like be excited to go work on on the range, really did it and allowed me to again just be more reactive on the golf course as opposed to like thinking about those swing thoughts because we had something to practice for. So when you play, you know, we're in March, right? All seasons just getting underway in Kansas City. Like when you go out and play, how do you define success? Is it like, Hey, I'm trying to break par or like what makes a good kind of everyday round for you?

That's such a good question. I wish I had a better answer for it. You know, I'm not really one to like, I'm, I'm very much a solo golfer. I'm probably like the worst member of a club ever. Cause I just kind of like, leave me alone. I'm doing my own thing. Um, the best and put the air pod, go walk in, you know, two hours and 45 minutes or something. It's just great. Yep. You know, when I am out there playing, I'm not, not one to like, like I said, I don't not like itching for, you know, itching for a match or, you know, anything like that or needing to gamble. Like I don't need that. I've never needed that. Like as a kid going out and playing,

I always just want to be like my friend. Like that's it straight up. Like I, no handicap, like I want to beat you. And that's just kind of always been this thing where it's, you know, it's funny. I'll be playing with other people. I know exactly what everyone shot like 100%. I've always, always known because I have that in the back of my mind. And again, I don't need their money for that. I just like want to, I just want to win. So I think that would define like what I'm looking for. But when I am playing solo, yeah, it's just like no doubles, hitting as many greens as possible. I like the things that I'm actively working on,

which I think the whole green, hitting as many greens as possible for me is like, you gotta get off the tee successfully. If you get off the tee successfully, usually got a wedge in my hand if it's a par four. So like, it's not really the approach that I'm looking for. It's the good drives. What have you thought about playing on camera?

Because I feel like it's a little different experience for you. Well, maybe not. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but Randy and I are mid single digit handicaps. We've played a couple of occasional good rounds. We play a lot of bad rounds. And Randy, not to speak for you, but it's, it's a little bit of like, yeah, you can't kill me. I'm already dead, man.

What do you think? I'm upset that I'm going to shoot 94. You think I don't think that's possible. You don't think I've ever hit a shank before? Yeah. Ben, you're, you're probably, I'm guessing you hold yourself to a much higher standard golf wise. And I'm curious how that matches up with the

pressure of, of, you know, knowing that hundreds of thousands of people might, might watch you play. It definitely. Have you ever thought about it in those terms? Yeah, absolutely. 100%. I mean, you know how much I'm in those analytics on YouTube, very aware. Definitely like weirdly, I feel like I've handled that like very, very well, which is surprising because I did not think that I would. But like, I've just, I think I've shot so much that I think I edited so much and I think

I like understand like what's needed. And it almost like takes me like out of this like grind, grind, grind mode. It's more of just like, you know, try and be successful on camera. And then I just like kind of forget about the golf stuff. And then, and then it just like has tended to work out club championship, a little bit different. I was very much like in the mode of playing golf. And at that point, I kind of forgot like what we were doing. I was definitely playing a tournament and not really, you know, shooting a video, which, you know, good, bad or indifferent. That's kind of what happened. So yeah, it's, it's

definitely pressure packed. It's more pressure packed like night before for me. Like, Oh God, just like, don't, don't throw up an egg. Like, come on. Like this is your whole, this is the only reason why you're being recorded right now is because you're solid at golf. Like, just be decent tomorrow. Come on. So like that happens for sure. But in the moment, like it doesn't, I don't know, it's just kind of hanging out with, with you guys, which is, you know, always always a joy. So like it doesn't, it doesn't bother me too, too much in that regard. Good to hear. What's the most complete round of golf you've ever played? Yeah. Is it the best round of golf you've ever played?

I think it is. So I, you know, nomination for a new course against Solly. God, what an ass kicking. Yeah, I don't think it was like the most complete. I've definitely like shot better scores and like made more birdies and stuff like that. But like, I didn't really ever, I wasn't really ever out of anything. Like everything was kind of clicking, which was good.

Especially cause that was like this time last year. So I wasn't expecting to like play well. So that was nice. But the most complete round of golf and the best round of golf ever played was at Sylvie's Valley Ranch while DJ and Sally were going bananas against each other in the in the semis of Taurusas, Oregon. So I truly like I don't even think they watch me hit a single shot, but I made eight birdies and shot six under that round

and didn't miss a shot all day. Like I don't remember where those bogeys came from. It's like, be clear. He's, he's filming as he's playing this route. So like we used to do this a lot. We don't really do this anymore because it's fucking hard to do, but Ben would like he'd hit his shot. He was always hitting last into all the greens. So we'd all tee off. Ben would jump over. He'd film me hitting. He'd jump over. He'd film solid hitting. He'd jump over. He'd hit his own ball. And then we'd get up to the green and then he'd like try to film us and hit his shots in between. And like that's, that's the situation that he's, he's describing here.

Yeah. And I think I had like two Eagles in the first five holes or something. It was, maybe it wasn't eight birdies. It was like eight under with two Eagles or something like that. Yeah, and I specifically remember on that 18th green, you guys had just had like this, DJ comes from behind this crazy moment, going to extras, they both zip off in their cart. And I'm just like left there with a 12 footer by myself

for to shoot six under on this course, you know, with a 12 footer by myself for, you know, to shoot six under, um, on this course career low, bury it, you know, fist pump to nobody and then get my stuff and like, all right, we're going to this playoff thing. So yeah, that, that one sticks out as my, my most complete round. Well, there you go. I never knew you even made that putt. Congratulations, man. Belated, belated congrats for me. Uh, well, didn't the first, the first round of that trip, weren't you like 800 through 11 or something at golf course with Neil?

Were you there too? Yeah, Mad Max, Mad Max golf course. Oh, no, that was in Portland, right? I was with Solly that day. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. What was that?

That was like crazy low. First time I'd ever met you guys. Yeah, that was that was a wild wild wood. Wildwood. Yeah, I think that's right. Sounds right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that wasn't complete. So I absolutely shit the bed coming down the down the end. Big. Neil just grabs the camera and starts flipping around that bed. So, yeah, we're filming you now, man.

It's going to be great. Yeah, but that was, that was a memorable one. People still bring that up, which is very kind of them. But yeah, I just remember being like massively uncomfortable on like the 14th, 14th tee, like seven deep, just like, I don't even know if I had shot under par, like more than once or twice at that point. And yeah, you know, we're looking at, we're on 59 watch and it's just like, all right. Yeah. Promptly snapped one out of bounds. So

have you got more comfortable being under par or is it still a thing for you? No way more comfortable. I mean, that being said, I didn't shoot under par at all last year. But no, no, no, I'm sorry. I shot under par. I didn't shoot in the 60s last year. But yeah, no, 100% gotten so much more comfortable, especially at golf courses, where I can do it. Thinking Dobson Ranch, thinking Sweeten's, places like that where it's like, oh no, every hole, I'm going to try to bury this hole. Um, gotten a lot more, a lot more comfy there. Well, we've, we've done this with the other guys and it's always kind of a fun one to, to, you know, start to drill in on, uh, what kind of golf courses you like,

but we've done this 10 round split game, which is something we've, we always like to do post round having a couple beers and you know, especially if you've played two, two rounds on that trip or two rounds in that day or whatever, you know, what, what, what's your 10 round split between the two? So big, why don't you throw one out? I'll throw one out and we'll just kind of see. And Ben, you also have a distinction here of, I don't even think these are necessarily going to be all courses that you've played.

You know, you have like one of the best resumes going here of, of, uh, someone who intimately knows these golf courses, but has never played them. Yeah, that's my, it's my entire platform. A guy that's been to been around the world the most looking, just truly looking at golf courses and intimately getting to know them, but you know, not having played. So yeah, please hit me. All right. Let's I'll start here. I think these are two that you have played. It's always a fun topic of conversation. abandoned dunes and Pacific dunes. 82 abandoned.

Okay, you're on the right side. Right side of history. Appreciate that. I truly like I just I'm not interested in pack. I just that's interesting. I don't know. For low handicaps. It's totally great. And everything's, everything's good. I thought it was going to be flipped. Interesting. Huh? Interesting how that works. Well, let's do, I mean, let's just stay there. Old Mac and band trails. You know what I, I, old Mac has been a massive grower for me. It's awesome. You guys were saying that after you got back last year. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it would be six, four trails that the only thing about Mac is like, it's really freaking hard. I didn't never give it that much credit from the difficulty perspective, but I think it's rated the hardest out there. And yeah, I just find it very difficult. But like I do like that challenge as well. All right. I'm I've never played golf in Nebraska. I feel like you have a decent amount. So I was wondering about two publics

there. Landman and wild horse. Ooh. Six for wild horse. Okay. Yeah. No offense. Like truly land man is awesome. It's just like, it's like, it's an experience, right?

It's one of those things where, you know, you can't, can't have too many sweets. Ben, we had a, God, I kind of feel like we want to tell the whole story of this round, but we had a couple of real memorable trips to Scotland over the last couple of years. So I'll throw out a Carnoustie and the new course. Oh, yeah, that's tough. It's like both memorable courses for me. One not so great memories, one awesome memory. But dude, I don't know, like, I feel like, I feel like the group that NLU group is like not a massive car news. I freaking loved it. So loved it. Loved it. Loved it. So I played it on a very benign day. gorgeous day played well. I'm like, Oh my god, I love our news. But I know next time I

play it and the weather's bad. I'll be like, Oh God, give me all of this. Yeah. Um, I'm probably going to go six, four car nasty, um, pro shop or hotel and all. Um, I'll take it. Can you, can you tell the story of, uh, that round we had, it was who me, you and Jamie Kennedy, I believe. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which was just an awesome, awesome, awesome day. Uh, great memories. I still remember DG, you hitting that, that shot out of that empty, uh, Creek. Uh, that was incredible. I didn't know how you're going to get the ball out of it and you hit it out of the green. It was very, very sick. Yeah. Just like super windy day. Um, you know, proper tech. I was proper, proper. Yeah. I don't think we were playing up a little

bit, but like not crazy. I just remember the first hole, you know, it's like four 10 on the scorecard, but I think we all went like driver lumber short of the green. And yeah, I ended up playing like so good, like super good. I think I was, I think I made double in the first hole and then was one under, um, from there to the 16th hole. Um, is that correct? Yeah. I just remember, what is it? Two 30, something like that long, long, long, long par three. Ben hits the flag, which is then just like, deal, we're going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this.

And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this.

And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, oh is it? 230 something like that. Long, long, long par three. Ben hits the flag. Yeah. Which is then just like, do you, we're going to do this. Uh, three pots from what I remember after that. A horrible three part two, man. I mean like, yeah, if you hit the flag, obviously it's not that far away, but I just had to like, it's just a little downhill or I just had to get it there and just, just like missed a two and a half footer.

We get to get to 17. Uh, for those that those that don't know it. It's got the the meandering burn So basically the burn cuts right across the fairway, but it kind of bends towards the green And then eventually bends back away from the green meaning like there's a big chunk of Fairway on kind of the right-hand side that where you can fit a much longer shot off the tee. Uh, and then if you're on towards the left side of the fairway, uh, you have much, much less space. And, uh, Ben steps up and just hits that driving iron, I believe just absolutely flush hammers it. It's just so obviously directly into the burn as soon as, as soon as he hits it. And he just, I don't know if he was doing the math wrong or what, but just as soon as it left the club face, I was like, oh my God, that's dead, man. What are you doing? That's so dead. So then now we're,

now things are moving quickly. Jamie Kennedy, one of my favorite people in golf, just the exact wrong thing to say at that time. Just like, Hey, why don't we play 18 from all the way back? Let's go all the way to the, to the pack, the open championship team, which I loved. I had a great time and you know, hit it out the green and hit a great shot in there. Ben hooks it out of the 18th team. Yeah I ended up finishing DNF. So like tough. Uh, yeah, that was, that was, that was a tough, that good, great memory of the first 16 holes and then just are shit 15 and a half holes. And then it just, just all fall apart but loved, loved the golf course. Fantastic place. Can't wait to go back. All right. Well, we've, we've rounded out all of these episodes the same way. Trons

was, was very electric. It has gotten even more electric, I think. All the tech threads I've been on with him and other members at courses that he's declared were top three courses in the world that didn't even make his list. It's just great stuff. So what we've done is, Ben, just straight up, 10 favorite golf courses in the world, 10 to one. What do you got?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think all these kind of like fall in different buckets. Obviously some are art picks and some are like actually how I feel about the golf course. So number 10, I'm going with the horse course at the Prairie Club. Talked about it earlier. Golf course changed my life. So I will always be the first like fun, fun place in golf I've ever played. And it still sticks with me today as like being a unique spot. I think that the biggest benefit

there is, you know, it's I love a lot of the other part three courses at different resorts, you know, shout out to San Valley got a hole in one there. Great memories there as well. First swing of the day, right? Wasn't it? Didn't you? Yeah, first swing of the trip. Blow out the O-ring? Just the first swing of the day? Yep. I still got my little shovel somewhere around here. So that was fun. But yeah, the horse course is just super fun because there's no fee to play if you're on property. It's just go nuts. And that has just always stuck with me as such a good concept and brilliantly designed holes, and just a big field, place to play and have a good time.

So that one's number 10 for me. Number nine is abandoned trails. This one is, I was really stuck between dunes and trails on this one. I love, love dunes so much. I've said many, many times that dun's is my number one at that resort. So, you know, in the world of TC, this is my, it's not the best course to resort, but it's, you know, my favorite course of them. So Bandin Trails, I love that place. I think you'll start

to see a trend here pretty soon as to why I selected band and trails. Number eight actually got to experience this one with with big nasty here. Philly cricket. I don't know why that one sticks with me. I've seen it one time. And it just just one of those places that I just playing hard that day. That's all I remember. It was but it was like it was like everything that I dream about. When I go play courses that I think have like a ton of potential, I'm just kind of an architecture person where I just like always am looking for like,

oh man, if they would just take that treat out, it'd be so sick. I gotta be so annoying at my club because I do that every time we play. But like Philly felt like one of those places where they did it, like they made all of those changes and expressed it to its best ability. That just sits really, really well with me. Just love that place. Very memorable. Fully realized. Yes. I have so much. God, I got so many blind spots in Philly. That's a lifetime achievement

that needs to be unlocked. It's just a big long Philly trip at some point. Yeah, it's just a call to go on. Hit us up. Listen. Yeah. I'll throw out mine's Long Island. Ideally, Randy said offline, ideally if you have a jet, you could send for him. That would be ideal, but you know, don't want to put anybody out. No, no, no pressure. Yeah. Number seven. And I, I like, I always feel weird about saying this,

but I truly, truly mean it. Uh, Brough Creek national. I was wondering, it's gotta be on your list. You gotta be your own biggest fan. We thought it hit the board. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I don't know. I just, again, like memories that I've had out there and like, I think I thought like some of the golf holes are like legitimately great and just very compelling. I really like the the one up the hill, number six, the bigger Dan blind shot and kind of cool. So, yeah, I don't know. It's great.

The three is awesome. There's there's so many good so many good ones. Yeah. So I don't know. I just I love that. I love it. And just like the memories and just the feeling of like, you know, we did own the golf course, but everyone that went out there, like got that same feeling like, oh, this is mine for the day. This is incredible. And I just think that that's, that's unmatched in many places. So I have to have that one on the board. Number six, for me is mammoth Dunes at Sand Valley. This one very well could be because I played extremely freaking well there every time, why it's got on my board. But I always find that one as like, I always think about going on these golf trips with my dad and he's getting more and more into golf and wants to play.

Every time I think like, oh, we could go to bandin or you know, maybe we go to Scotland. It's like, no, you gotta bring him to mammoth freaking dunes and we're gonna go have so much fun and he's gonna have a great time. He's gonna shoot a career low and I'm gonna like be super engaged. And it's like such a good walk too.

There's just so much about it that I absolutely love. Solly said it best after that trip of like, man, that should be like the standard and you should have to go like far and wide to go find difficult golf courses. And I feel really, really strongly that he's damn right in that. Now, don't get me wrong,

if we're worried about land usage in golf courses, I don't know if 150 yard wide fairways makes a ton of sense, but I think it's just a very, very fun, engaging place to play golf and have a lot of fun with friends. That was my first time going on a friends golf trip, my friend, Matt Pruce and Corbin to Mammoth and got to see that. We had tee lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses.

I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses.

I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. I'm going to go to play a lot of the other courses. It's really, really, really fun. And Randy, I think you love both of those. I've never been up to the same Valley at all. I saw something on your calendar late in the year. Mr. Big, is that going to potentially happen? Maybe. Maybe. I'm trying. Efforting. It's really good. And it's getting to the point now that- I might be in the Long Island. I don't know. It's busy, man. It's getting to the point now too, where I'm talking to some friends just around the state that are, you know, you're booking so far in advance. I mean,

they're just there. They've never been more popular. That is for sure. The mammoth thing is interesting too, because it's almost like so many people have said what you just said, Ben, which is like, before you get there, like, Oh man, you're going to shoot your career low on, on mammoth. Trust me. Trust me. Trust me. And that people almost just like freak out. Like they psych themselves out, which is kind of a sick little dynamic too. You know, like, Oh, it's so easy. Really? Fuck. I just shot like 86, man. Like, so that's kind of a fun little, little wrinkle too. If you've got to, yeah. And so you still got to, you know, still got to elevate the ball and not go in those crazy bunkers that they got. Uh, where are we at?

Top five? Yeah. Top five. So, you know, DJ, I'm coming to you. My friend, Aaron Hills, number five. Let's go. Yeah. I just, I don't know.

I just don't know how much better it gets than Aaron Hills. Um, straight up. I just think it's, it's freaking phenomenal. I'd love to come up like in the fall and play it when it's like super fast. Yeah. That would be interesting. But I feel like when we played it, we played it in like pretty tough conditions. I know that the gun wasn't super grown up, but I thought it still played just like magnificently. When you get the wind plus the hay is is a proper test plus the speed, like you said, you know, it's like, it's really fun, man. And it's just, it's so, uh, it's so varied. There's so many different holes out there that, uh, I just, you look forward to throughout the whole round, you know, like there's, there's six, seven, eight shots that you just

can't wait to hit. It's, and then you can't find anywhere else either. Like they're truly unique. Yeah. And the other thing about it too is like post round kind of setting back there is the sun's going down and the fescue rescues are flowing. I mean, it's just, it's great. Yeah. Nowhere else I'd rather be. It's awesome. Yeah. So that's my, that's my number five. Yeah. No, it is good. It is good. Great sunset. That back patio. Good place. Great sunset, that back patio, good place. OK, number four, in my opinion, the most underrated golf course in the country, potentially the world, maybe even the galaxy, Omaha Country Club. Sure. I spent a ton of time there every time I go.

I feel like I uncover something a little bit different, not only fantastic memories, but like truly like Augusta level of perfect conditioning, which is not, you know, not truly not like the only thing that I care about, man, it's freaking nice when you get to experience it. And it's just, yeah, it's a Maxwell at its at its heart. And again, one of those like realized golf courses that that really gets me going. Andrew Green went in there and did some incredible work hosted the US senior open and, you know, fingers crossed, there's's going to get some ladies out there. I think it would be absolutely magnificent for that. True test, greens are super fast. It's just one of those places where like Tita Green,

it's not going to beat you up. Boy, you get around those greens. It's like everything you could ever ask for and a hell of a lot more. I just think it's a fantastic place. If you go out there and shoot a good one, you're a certified dog. All right. Number three, the old guy, go to the old. Um, and, and yeah, it's, it's really difficult to express exactly, uh, you know, how, how that one makes you one makes you feel. Have you played there once or more than once? Yeah, one time. And you guys were with me in spirit out there. We were with you literally the last couple of holes.

Last couple of holes. Yeah. Yeah. So only played it one time, but I think I've seen it. What were the circumstances? How did you get on? What was the, what was the day like? Oh man. I just like super lucky. I don't think it's like ever going to happen again, but we just, we had rolled in for a video shoot for the Walker cup. We were, you know, day early or something like that. Uh, just got off the plane and you know, I think Brandy, I think you went up to the stand and was just like, Hey, do you got any, any openings? Um, very passively. And they're know, I think, Randy, I think you went up to the stand and was just like, Hey, you got any, any openings? Um, very passively.

And they're like, yeah, we got one. Um, and you guys came out and, you know, very kind of you and said, Hey, you should, you should go do it. So I did play with a couple Australians and, um, you know, this other dude, I can't quite remember and went and played and a good day, like rained a little bit. It's a little bit windy and just had so much fun. I just like injured my shoulder. So like that was tough Getting off the first couple holes, but then once we started running it ended up being a great great day And yeah, you guys got some video of me out there

So like I'll always have that to lean on and you know, it's And it's just so cool. And then we ended up spending like seven days just like on the golf course with the Walker Cup team. So getting to do that was fantastic. And then, it was just there again recently for the reverse shoot and spent a couple of Sundays out there just kind of walk in. So I feel like I know it like so freaking good

for having to only play it you know the one time but it's like it's probably in the top three or four golf courses like I've been on and hung out on the most and it just gets more and more exciting every time like seeing people play it man it's just like it's it. Yeah I mean yeah there's just not that many courses you can see you have have so many, like such a big body of memories of seeing very average people play and seeing the best players of all time play at the same time, you know? It's like, you can see a lot of that on TV maybe,

but you just don't get to do that in person at very many places and it's just the best. Yeah, that's great. All right, brings us to number two. I feel pretty strongly about this one. Not only because it's local to me, but I truly think it's that good. Prairie Dunes is my number two. I think I'm just like a Maxwell junkie. So, you know, and GC, if you're listening, Holler at your boy. I haven't checked that one off, you know, but it's just so freaking good.

It's like the truest championship golf course, you know, that I've had the opportunity to be on multiple times, uh, you know, outside the old. So, um, it's all, you know, weather dependent. If there's no wind, it's, it's generally fairly benign. Um, if there is wind, it's going to be a freaking monster. Um, so it's, it's just, I don't know, it's just one of those places. I just can't get over it. The shots are fantastic.

It's it's it's it's fully fleshed out. It's so good. The only thing is that the grasses there aren't quite right. We're just in a weird spot in the country where cold season grasses are going to get burnt and warm season grasses are going to die in the winter. So they've kind of got a little bit of a mix going on. I think if there was a way to get that place rolling firm and fast

all the time, I think it would climb even higher in the rankings. I truly feel that way. Man, I'm trying to predict number one. I had this slated in my head as I knew Prairie Dunes was going to be high. I figured Omaha, I mean, we already got the old out of the way. I think you guys could get there. I think you could get there. I mean, he was very lonely about Steve, but I don't know if he could put that over the old. Yeah, I played it once more than I used to. I played it once, but I've again spent a lot of time out there.

Oh, in America or not in America? Not in America. In Scotland? Nope. Oh, Roe Melbourne. Composite. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Of course. Of course. Gotta be. Yeah. Got the opportunity to play the actual composite the day after the I was thinking Tura sauce. That's right. You and Sally went down for the Asia Pacific. Yeah. So, you know, with all the with all the signs out there, like super duper tipped out tournament conditions like, oh, played terrible. But it was just like I didn't play terrible.

I played pretty good. But that place is so freaking hard that, you know, it exposed you. But yeah, it's like really like if I'm going to get on a simulator, like I'm going to play the Melbourne composite. It's like incredible. I don't know. I just can't get enough of it. Every single shot, every single hole is, you know, more than what you could ask for. I think it's the best golf course in the world. You know, that's, that's my thought. I don't know.

I just don't know how you can get a better golf course straight up. I think that's truthfully don't need. I know it's a pretty, I mean, I haven't played them all, but yeah, it's a pretty fair argument to make bed. I don't think you're going to get a lot of flack for that one. That's a good list. That's a good list of variety, a couple of surprises, a couple of classics. I think that's, I think that's great.

Big, you got anything else? I think that's a good list. That's a good list of variety. A couple of surprises, a couple of classics. I think that's I think that's great. Big, you got anything else? Otherwise, we're going to get the hell out of here. Ben, real quick, favorite golfer of all time? Cat, without a shadow of a doubt. I know that's like super stock, super boring.

He was my MJ. That's just what it's always been. And my least favorite golfer, anyone that beat Kat. So why Yang? I got you dog. The gripper at Fiori of looking at you. All right, Ben. Well, thanks for, thanks for all the insight, man. Bunch of stuff I didn't, I didn't even know about you. And it was, it's fun to hear you kind of unpack it all. So thanks for, thanks for the time and truly for all you do online. You know, it's great having you.

I can't believe it's been five years, man. That's nuts. I know that is nuts. Hey, get in a USGA event, go get some reps and go win the Kansas minimum, all right? Yeah, I heard you. Doing it for you. Well, thank you very much to Ben.

Thanks to our friends at Titleist and Footjoy. Thank you to our friends in the nest, of course. And of course, thank you to Big Randy. And we'll catch everybody next time. Cheers. Crack on.