No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 978: Steve Williams and Evin Priest on "Together We Roared"

Episode Date: March 29, 2025

Soly and TC are joined by Steve Williams and Evin Priest of Australian Golf Digest to discuss their book "Together We Roared", a retrospective on the time Williams spent as Tiger's caddie from 1999 to 2011. From the stories you might have heard before to some new revelations on that famous partnership, this was a fantastic chat from start to finish. Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining The Nest: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at nolayingup.com/join Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the NoLayingUp podcast. Sala here joined shortly by my guy TC. We both ripped through the book Together We Roared, written by Steve Williams and Evan Priest. And we're lucky enough to be joined by both Steve Williams and Evan Priest here on the podcast to talk about the book

and just talk some tiger stories. I mean, come on, it's an hour and 15 minutes of straight up just tiger stories and Stevie's perspective on things. I definitely learned a lot of things in this book, learned a lot about their relationship, how they split up and their relationship since then and how they work together

and the notes they share back and forth. There's just a lot of really cool never heard before information in this and it's just great to hear these stories directly from Steve Williams himself as well. So you can pre-order the book. It'll be out I believe April 1st if you listen to this right away and enjoy the chat. It's a great chat and I can't believe we finally had Steve Williams on the podcast. We could ask pretty much anything we wanted to. Just a fascinating, fascinating dude.

But this episode was brought to you by The Nest. If you are unfamiliar with what The Nest is, that is our membership platform, our community of avid golfers. And you can support our show and a lot of our content and our community by joining The Nest at nolayingup.com slash join. You get a discount on merchandise in there. You get early access to sign up for events. You get some bonus content.

We just released actually round one of the Gasparilla with some commentary on top of that. Everybody got to enjoy my 86 in round two, but I was in it for a little while in round one. Some bonus content going up there. A lot of great things going on at the nest, nolayingup.com slash join if you wanna support the show in that way.

Without any further delay, here's Steve Williams and Evan Priest. All right, Steve, I kind of feel bad getting started here of all the the library of information we have available to us as we do our jobs here, the podcast, you know, the research we can do on Tiger Woods research we can do on you having just read the book and all that seems very opposite from the first time you meet Tiger Woods and you go to work for him. It's in the non-Google area. First of all, you were not a big cell

phone guy it sounded like, but before you could Google anything about your boss, tell us about meeting Tiger Woods for the first time. Well, I had the good fortune to meet Tiger when he was an amateur. I was caring for Raymond Floyd at the time and he was an amateur that was invited to Augusta as a current US amateur champion and he played a practice round on two separate occasions with Raymond at Augusta so right from the get-go I could recognize his enormous talent and you know his prodigious distance that he hit the ball. You know he was a very young man but he had a great knowledge of the game and he was really a guy that was wanting to learn as much as he could in those

18 whole practice rounds of you know, a guy that's really keen to listen and learn from other players So, you know a great student of the game and you know Like I recognize the fact straight away that he had an enormous talent that was when he was an amateur before he turned professional But but when you go to meet him for the first, it's potentially being hired by him. You go to his house, right? Tell us. I couldn't help but laugh at what he was doing when you went to go to his house

for the first time. Yeah, well, that was a pretty interesting thing. I drove up from Miami to Orlando. He lives in a place called Ioworth in the suburbs of Orlando. And I knock on his door there. And he quickly answers the door. He says, come in.

It won't be a minute. I'm just doing something right now. And I come in, and he's playing a video game and the intensity at which he was playing this game was something I'll never forget. And it's like, whoa, if you're playing a video game with this intensity, what's it gonna be like when you're playing golf?

So a very interesting thing. I sat there for the best part of five to 10 minutes watching a video game, and which I don't know much about myself, but it was pretty amazing introduction to Steve. You're, um, your racing career comes up throughout the book. Are you still racing? Are you retired from racing and caddying or tell me about that a little bit?

It's seven o'clock here in the morning in New Zealand at seven o'clock tonight. I'll be on the track tonight. So yeah, it's one of those things that I think I've retired two times in racing. And it's a very, very difficult sport to retire from. It's such an adrenaline rush and something I absolutely love. And I just love being around the racing. I'm not racing myself.

I'm watching it. But yeah, actually, during this past week, I took my son to a practice track and put him behind the wheel. He had never had a go in a car of such horsepower as a dirt light model like I drive here in New Zealand. And yeah, so he's pretty keen on it now. I might be handing the reins over to him, but you know, I love my racing and yes, still do it a little bit. You kind of detail the crash you were in, still do it a little bit. You kind of detail the crash you were in,

that you kind of rushed back from and came back for the West Coast swing a little bit. Like, was that the gnarliest crash you've ever been in or was that just one of many? Well, yeah, when you race and you race often, you're always going to crash. It's just a nature. But that was certainly the only crash

that I had that I was hospitalized and did a little bit of damage there. But you know, like it's just like, it's part of the sport. You always hope you don't get injured too seriously when you have a crash, but you know, there is a higher, well, there is a risk of danger when you're racing any kind of vehicle. So, but yeah, it's all part of it.

You gotta take that on board or you're gonna take the sport on. Evan, when you're covering a subject like the book, it covers Tiger Woods, it covers Steve's relationship with Tiger Woods, but it's, I mean, you could, you could make this book a thousand pages if you wanted to. What was it like kind of paring down, I guess, examining their relationship and kind of breaking down what, what would ultimately end up in your published piece? Yeah. And a great question, Solly. It's one of those things I had lunch with the publisher last week

in New York and I said I could have made this 150,000 words and he said thank God you didn't. You don't realize the editing process how long it takes until you're like, oh my God, there's 15 chapters in this thing. Although it moves very quickly. It's like to edit it consistently throughout. It's like, well, that's a big process to go back through it all. The most important thing, I always try to put myself in the golf fan's perspective and say, if my friend was writing a golf book and I was a golf fan,

what would I want to know about Steve and Tiger? And often I was just trying to balance that, the hardcore golfer who wants to know the stats and, you know, like especially before ShotLink existed. I think one of the coolest things about the book is the stats that Steve Han wrote. Like that stuff is history and it's living in Steve's office at home in Auckland, you know, on sheets of exercise paper.

So there was that. And then there was also those, you know, like my mates who have just gotten into golf in the last five years, they just want to know things like, what's it like on a private jet or how, how hard does someone party after winning the British open or things like that? So it was, I was trying to strike that balance, but ultimately there, I'm a big fan of the show entourage and there was a great quote on a podcast about that show.

And it was like, it's not necessarily the main character. It's the most interesting thing. And in this case, that would be Tiger. It's the interplay of those around him who are closest to him that ends up being like the timeless part of the book. So I really wanted to flesh out, you know, how good a relationship did Steve and Tiger have? How much pressure was Steve under? How did he sort of escape the limelight? Because it was it was truly crazy that the

limelight around Tiger were even well before the social media age. So it was more the interplay and the relationship that I wanted to get out more so than the golf because people know what he did on the golf course, although we do shed a new light on a lot of those moments, but they don't know in depth, you know, like the relationship between Tiger and Steve. So that was really what drove me in the end. Speaking of relationships, how did you guys get linked up, you and Stevie? I can tell a funny, am I allowed to swear? Oh, absolutely. So encouraged. I spoke to Steve a couple of times before I really got out on tour,

which was 2016. So the random Australian open before I came over to the States, you know, you see him on the bag with Adam and I would ask him a question here and there, Steve probably didn't remember me from that time. But then my first Masters, which was 2017, myself, and another journalist, who knows Steve went up to Steve and Adam on the ninth green at Augusta National. And we didn't we didn't know whether Adam was playing a nine hole or an 18 hole practice round. And you know, Adam's putting in around and Steve's throwing down the cones and then the other journalist says, are you playing nine or

18 holes and Steve goes, what the fuck do you think? So I was like, Whoa, that's holy, holy moly. He either has a really good or really bad, but it was a really good relationship with this other journalist. And from that moment on, I just, I kind of knew when to be quiet and let Adam and Steve do their work. And I think Steve appreciated that.

And since sort of 2016, 2017, we've had a good working relationship that's turned into a friendship. And it's someone I seriously, seriously looked up to growing up. So COVID happened and then you guys did the podcast. And did the book just sort of stem out of that? Or was it always something kind of rattling around in the back of your head?

Yeah, yeah. So Steve had so much fun. And I can tell that Steve had a lot of fun reliving those memories during COVID doing the Chasing Majors podcast. And then, yeah, just like a lot of things do they organically unfold, someone in your life suggests, oh, that should be a book. And then, you know, another person recommends like an agent, and all of a sudden, you know, it's sort of like developing momentum. And the scariest part for me was whether Steve was going

to say yes or no or not, because I got approached to, you know, would you want to do a book with Steve? And I remember I was at the tour championship at Eastlake and I called Steve and he didn't answer and then it was about 24 hours until he called me back because he was racing somewhere in New Zealand and he finally called me back and I answered straight away. He said, yeah, I'd love to do a book. And just my like spirits just lifted instantly. I couldn't concentrate on whoever won that day. It might've been Victor Hovland, the 2023 tour championship. My mind was elsewhere and as I said before, he's someone that I look up to so much.

So to do something that truly will be timeless, it'll sit on people's shelves and I'll be able to read it again, you know, when it's 30 years since the chip-in and things like that really means a lot to me. And I was really grateful that Steve, Steve has been so patient. He's been asked a lot of questions. And I was really grateful that Steve, Steve has been so patient.

He's been asked a lot of questions over the last 10, 12 months and he continues to answer them really enthusiastically. So he's, he seriously, it really, I wrote the thing for him, but it really is his stories, his words, his interviews. And I really, I really want golf fans to appreciate what a gift it is that he's given the golf world to dig up some of these stories that have never been heard before and just make us fall in love with professional golf again and with Tiger again and get us sort of fizzed

for the masses. It's great to, I mean, I learned so much just about their relationship. For Steve, this is for you for right off the bat. So you're caddying for Tiger in 1999 for the first time. And when did you know or guess or figure out that you could kind of give Tiger shit? You could give it to him so as, you know, when he, you could call, you could say to his face,

you're overrated in a joking moment in a tournament and know that he's gonna laugh. When did you realize that you had that kind of level of your relationship? Yeah, well, you know, when you're counting for someone for the first time and that you've got to actually choose the moment where you can give a guy a bit of shit and see how they react to that because it's just that's the nature you got to have if you got to be able

to give it, be able to take it. But the very first week I gave him, he hit the worst shot I've ever seen from a golf pro. And we joked about it for ages. And, you know, after that tournament finished, I said jokingly, I said, you know, she says you're overrated. You've got a lot of work to do here, man.

And he really loved that. So we got on like a house on fire straight away. You gotta be able to read a guy straight away. There are some pros that are very stoic and very straight and very dull, very boring. And those are the guys that you can't have the good banter with. But no, Tiger, I could tell straight away

from when I first met him when he was playing this video, not first met him, but when I came to his house and watched his video game, like what he was saying to the screen. I'm like, the screen's not gonna answer back, but the characters in the video. But I knew straight away that, you know, you're gonna be able to banter with this guy.

He was yelling at some of these characters that he was playing the video game with. More seriously, I think the, I was blown away at the story from, from 99 at Medina, uh, 17th hole, you know, the putt, you guys kind of had, had different reads and you just said, Hey man, this is, this is, uh, you know, this is its own kind of thing. And like, that was a good override. Any other bad overrides that kind of still stick with you? That was a pretty ballsy decision you made in the moment to, hey, no, it's left edge. I've seen this thing. Yeah. No, look, there are times where obviously

you're wrong, no question. But fortunately during the entire time I cave as Tiger, there wasn't a situation where there was an override and it was a wrong one that potentially could have cost him. I mean, 2008 there, when he hit his third shot into the final hole there, there was a long discussion and I was adamant that I was right. And that's a situation there where if it does come wrong, it ends the tournament.

But no, fortunately I can honestly say that, there was a lot of times where you do override the player, but there was no situation where it came down to where you think, whoa, that cost us a tournament. So that's a pretty good thing to be able to say. You famously lied to him about the yardage, the 71st hole at Valhalla. How many times did you do that in your career?

And you got the result you wanted, but how many times did you lie to him about the yardage and why would you do that? Yeah, a lot of times, you know, an athlete when they get in full flight and they're really going good, Ty would start walking a little bit quicker and I could see the adrenaline in him.

I could just see the way that he was going about things when he really got excited about what he was doing and it got down to the head of the moment. On a Sunday in particular, I could sense there was some adrenaline going in and I'd just adjust the yards because otherwise it would start going further and further. But that was the very first time at Valhalla where it really came into play and it was crucial. And I took about eight yards off a yardage

so that he would hit a 60 degree and not a 56 degree. It was really risky because the front bunker was the only place you couldn't be. And he ended up hitting it really close and making a birdie. And to the point where there was one year we played at Bay Hill. It was on a Sunday, the first year a number of years ago when they changed the greens, they were rock hard. It was blowing hard.

It was a tough day. And I don't believe I gave him the right yardage once for the whole day. So, you know, and I always thought, you know, you spend hours and hours working on your yardage book and making sure that, you know, everything. And it proved to me that really the yardage is just an estimate. It's just a good thing to go off. And, you know, there's a couple of players, I think it was Bruce Lutsky, he used to just round it off.

You know, I was either 155 or 160. It wasn't 157, 156, 158. Just rounded off to the nearest five. I worked for Bert at Langer a couple of times and he'd say, I've got 132, what have you got? Oh, 131, you go and check it. He worked in metres, it was one metre difference. That was back early when I was first starting out

with my caddy for him and I thought, well, that was really interesting. But now when I look back, you know, I surely, it doesn't have to be that exact. You know, the golf ball never goes the same every time. Every shot you hit is different, you know, from different lye, different grass, you know, so forth. So yeah, but yeah, I got into a habit and not, you know, not a bad habit, but got into a good habit of knowing when Tiger was pumped up

and when it was good to change. You know, sometimes I'd eyeball something and the Yardage would say it was eight, but my eyeballing would tell it to be nine, so I'd adjust the Yardage so that he would hit a nine. And he never questioned it, you know, he knew I did it, but he didn't say, oh, how many holes a day did you do it and so forth. So, you know, it was a really handy tool and it worked out, you know, he knew I did it, but I mean, he didn't say, oh, how many holes today did you do it and so forth? So yeah, it was a really handy tool and it worked out, you know, to his benefit.

I always find it interesting when it comes to, well, you have like Tiger Woods is like the, maybe one of the two greatest players to ever play the game. Like his golf IQ, his ability to read situations is so unbelievably high. Yet you, here you are charged with advising him on so many different things. And it's your job job to know his how his game and all that flows. But how would you approach it? Did you have a system necessarily of how you would give maybe compromising advice

to Tiger and that and would that vary depending on what his mood was like on a particular day or how a round was going? Yeah, 100% as Evan noted just a little bit ago, I kept so many notes and in particular notes like, okay, we're in this situation today with three shots behind, he's not in a very good mood, he's not playing well, how did he react? I just wrote down so many notes on different days on how he would play under different situations and how he would play in different mood sets and so forth. And in the end there, I really felt like I could stand in his shoes and see what he was doing, see what he was feeling and be able to react accordingly. So keeping so many detailed notes was a huge advantage as far as being able to judge on

each situation. On the yardage book front, did you always draw your own yardage books? Or was that kind of a hybrid thing? Yeah, when you started out, there wasn't yardage hooks available. And then when they were first available, you felt the ones that you were doing previously were comparable or better,

or you liked the way that you did it. But then when you came to America, this is what I'm talking when I first started you were doing previously were comparable or better, or you like the way that you did it. But then when you came to America, this is what I'm talking about when I first started catting out in Australia, Asia, and Europe and that. But when you came to America, there was a guy called George Lucas, he'd been around for a long time doing the Yardage book. So you just brought the book there and went from there. And it certainly saved a lot of time in that.

But it's quite good being able to do your own book because then you're 100% confident in everything you're doing, you know it's right. So you know every now and again when these yarnage books are given out or we have to purchase them, there are errors in them and someone will find out and it might take, you know someone might find out on a Tuesday or might not be until the Friday that someone finds out. So potentially you could be mistaken there, but very seldom does that happen. But there's some pleasure in making your own Yarns book. But obviously a lot of the courses in America have a huge amount of water on them and quite difficult to measure over the water accurately. But there was a lot of pleasure in doing your own Yarns book for sure. One of the things I liked in the book was just the, there seemed to be a,

it's like really good energy around Hoy Lake and going to a new venue, both with you and with Tiger, of, hey, we haven't seen this place. They haven't had an open here in 30 plus years. Any other instances of that when both of you were just really jazzed up to play an event because you were playing a new course and it was just a brilliant world class place. Well, I think I said in the book, not so much a new course, but I was always intrigued and even to this day, I'm still intrigued about the fascination that Tiger had with Torrey Pines when the USGA announced that the US Open was going to be held at Torrey Pines in 2008.

So in January, they have the Buick Invitational, it was called then, at Torrey Pines. And for every hole, every time that he played, leading up to the US Open, where do you think they're gonna put the tee here, Steve? Where is it, how will they shape the fairway? Where will the pinball, he had such a fascination. I mean, it's just, it's a US Open, I mean, it's at Torrey Pines,

but he had more fascination about winning that tournament. Even the 2001 Masters, but he had more fascination about winning that tournament. Even the 2001 Masters where we had the opportunity to capture the fourth major and hold all four of them consecutively. He had more fascination on that tournament. It was really, I found it very strange. I mean, you know, there's a US Open every year. I understand Torrey Pines is the first professional tournament he went to in that. But it was just remarkable that he had such a fascination with it, he turns up injured.

Realistically, I didn't think he should be playing in the tournament and neither did anyone else in his circle, but he was determined he was gonna play and not only determined he was gonna play, he was determined he was gonna win it at all costs. Apart from the tournaments where he played remarkably, this was the most remarkable event and it's something I'll never ever forget.

And especially some of the words he said to me. Wow, I was gonna say, there's two stories that you've told a lot that I'm gonna make you, I know what people have heard them, I'm gonna make you tell. And one of them is standing on the cart path at 2008 at Torrey Pines. You gotta tell us that story.

Yeah, look, I mean, he was certainly in pain. There was no question. Usually when you're counting the, you know, you're watching every time the guy hits it, obviously watching the ball where it goes. But a lot of times I was just watching his face to see the pain and the grimace on his face. But, so he went at that shot,

he was standing on the cart path, he had metal spikes on. As he made a transition down and hit the ball, I heard this crack in his knee and I said to him, Tiger, you're like, I think, you know, you've got to think about withdrawing here. Your future's on the line here. This is only one USA and you're going to play a lot more of them. He said, fuck you, Stevie. I'm winning this tournament. Don't say that again. That's so, it's so good. Cause the stories about how bad he was playing coming in

and how he could barely swing it. It was a real thing of like, why were we going to get out and play it and then turn around and winning that thing still just and reading every time I read or hear about it, I just still blows my mind that that happened. It's the thing in the with, with the physio too of like, Hey, I don't know if, I don't know if you're going to make it through the week. I'm fine here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So look, I mean, he had to have treatment before he played and then he had to have treatment at. Like usually at a major championship, you'll spend a bit of time every day practicing on some part of your game.

But there was no practice that week. Every time after even the practice rounds and then the rounds, there was just treatment. And it's ironic that the thing stretched out to a fifth day as well. I know. Which made it, how far can we stretch this thing? And not only does it get stretched out to a fifth day as well. I know. You know, which made it, you know, how far can we stretch this thing? And not only does it get stretched out to, you know,

18-hole playoff, then it becomes a Sunday. After that, it was remarkable. You know, look, I've always thought about, you know, that tournament for a long time afterwards, but I mean, if there's such a thing about the golfing gods, well, I mean, gee, was it those golfing gods were looking down on Tiger Woods that Sunday

or that entire week that allowed them to play because major championships, you know, won, it's not the greatest amount of good shots, it's the least amount of bad shots. And, you know, I mean, the amount of poor shots that he hit that had managed to still win the tournament was remarkable. You know, there's obviously some unbelievable highlights,

you know, the putt that he hold on the par five and the back of the green that didn't go in, still win the tournament was remarkable. Yeah, there's obviously some unbelievable highlights. You know, the putt that he hold on the par five in the back of the green, that didn't go in, you know, it's off the green and you know, the shot out of the bunker that he didn't hit how he wanted to and hits the flag and drops it in. So, you know, the golfing guys

were definitely on the side that week. It's kind of crazy that the two guys that ended up in a playoff at Torrey Pines almost should not have been there. You know, like the world ranking, I suppose, of Rocco Mediate was going against him, but not only that, he was in the Columbus section qualifier and he would, I think I'm pretty sure I should know this because I wrote the book with Steve, but I believe it was an 11 for seven playoff at Columbus and he was one of the guys that got in before darkness.

So if Rocco doesn't finish before darkness, who knows if he sleeps on a playoff, comes back the next morning and makes consecutive bogeys and he's not even in the US Open. And then Tiger, practically risking, real lifelong injury to play in that thing. It was the two guys that probably shouldn't have been in that made the playoff and made such a, maybe the most memorable major we've ever seen.

Yeah, gosh. Well, another major that was wildly memorable for me and TC for the age we were at of 13 and 14 at this time was of course, 2000 us open now famous story of when you're resuming play in the second round. You have a sit, I, I, I'm going to make it tell the story. Cause then I have so many different areas of this that I want to dissect of, well, it could have been a really bad gaffe that you got away with, but those that maybe have not heard the story, break it down for us. Yeah, look, it's a, it's certainly one we laughed about for years.

So the second round was, had a fall delay. We were on the path three, the 13th hole. We completed that hole, which the siren went off and we completed that hole. Tiger made like a 30 footer just to finish off the day there, I mean, which was quite amazing in itself. So we had to come back on Saturday morning and complete the third round.

Now it was just a continuation of the second round. And due to the early start, there wasn't time to go to the putting green, the driving range, and then out on the shuttle vehicles to take you out to the tee where you're going to tee off to where the drop off point was. So Tiger elected that he would just, his normal routine would be go to the putting green, to the driving range, back to the putting green, and then onto the tee that he was going to tee off. But this morning, due to the early start

and the limited daylight that was available because of the early start, that he would just go to the driving range and then out to the 14th tee where the shuttle would take us. So I picked the clubs up from Tiger's room. You know, every day you gotta check the bag for balls, how many extra gloves or whatever we might need. Just make sure we've got everything in the bag,

our snacks and whatever we need. But I just picked the bag up out of his room and put it on my shoulder because it was just a continuation of yesterday's second round. So there wasn't any need to put any further equipment or necessities in the bag. No problem. Go to the drive range and get out onto the shuttle bus

out to the 14th hole, stand on the tee there and get a ball out of the bag for, you know, out of the pocket and start and I put my hand in there and it's just three balls and I thought that's a bit strange, there should be more than three in there. Oh, it's not a big deal. Best player, he's the best player in the world, he'll get through it. Yeah, first hole it's in the left rough and it's a short club out of the rough which back in those days the ball scuffed pretty easily when they were hit with a sand wedge

of which this ball did. And Tiger walked off the green there and there's a father and son walking along. He threw the ball to the son. And of course he's absolutely ecstatic. He's got a Tiger Woods golf ball. He's showing his dad, I'm watching him. He said, you know, look at the Tiger,

it's got Tiger and he's just absolutely excited. And I'm thinking, there's a possibility I should ask this, can I get that ball back off you, and I'll give it to you at the end, but you just can't do that in front of Tiger and what's going on around the US Open. No problem, 15, 16, 17, so we've got two balls left, 18th, and at this stage I'm a little nervous, you know, with the 18th at Pebble Beach, but I can't say anything to Tiger.

At this point he's leading by nine. He's playing absolutely fantastic golf, whatever. Anyway, that's the first really poor shot he hits. He hooks it down into the water, lost ball, and now he's got to hit again. So, you know, the club goes back in the bag with a certain amount of anger in it. And so I put the head cover back on and my hands glued to the head cover. I said, Tiger, hey, hey, you know, Tiger, maybe just hit an iron off the tee here. You're leading by nine. Let's get down the field. Give me that fucking driver. And my hand still clasps on this thing. And I said, oh, look, Tiger, just think, you know, just think here a little bit.

Give me that fucking driver. Okay, gotta let him hit driver. Now, people say do you get nervous catting? Well, you don't really get nervous because you're not actually hitting the shots. You're only giving advice and I've never found nerve wracking to be a catty. But on this time, I'm absolutely shitting myself and there's a certain saying that your ass is puckering.

Well, I know what that's about now. I'm standing there and every bit of me, my toes, my ass, everything's just shaking. If he hits this next ball into the water or out of bounds to the right to the point where we can't find it in five minutes and a lot of time, well, we're out of the US. So anyway, he hits it down the fairway.

Well, that's good. That's taken a lot of stress off. But as I'm walking down the fairway, it's still quite misty. He plays continuing, but it's still a little bit misty and a little bit of fog around. And I'm walking down there, I thought it's right behind that tree.

As I'm walking to the ball, I'm telling myself, you know what, I know what shot he's gonna hit. He's gonna take a three wood, he's gonna aim it left over the bay and cut it back. I was like, oh no, here we go again. But I had, you know, usually had complete faith because when he went to hit a shot like that, where he would have to, you know, hit the ball,

like this is over the water, move it back. If he was gonna do something, he would overcut it. So, you know, it wasn't too bad, but not a word said, finishers out there, put, you know, we carry on that. And the very first thing he said to me after he signed a scorecard on Sunday and walked down the steps of the trail he stopped halfway down he said so what was all that about on the 18th tee on Friday so on Saturday so the crux of

the story was that because he couldn't go to the putting green on the Saturday morning due to the limited light that was available before you teed off he took three balls out of his bag and putted on the carpet in his room and didn't put him back in the bag. So had he have hit one more ball on the 18th tee Saturday morning into the ocean or out of bounds and that I wouldn't be talking to you right now. You know, I'd be.

You might be, it just might be about that story about how you got fired. It would have been pretty impressive to be leading the USA by nine and get disqualified because you're running out of golf balls. I mean, I've spent way too much time thinking about what I would do in this situation, right? If that second ball goes in the ocean, I think I would have yelled out, find that kid, I need the kid from third. I would have yelled that out because you got five minutes,

right? Or, you know, was there anybody from Tiger's team out following him like, hey, somebody get back to this hotel room and get more balls. Yeah. Well, the thing was that he was staying in the lodge, which is located not far behind the 18th green there. And I, and I, and I'm working out, you know, okay. What we've got to do here, if he hits another one in the water, we've got to go, you know, got to walk down there and they start the clock. Can I, can I run from there back to his, to the room and get some balls and get back in five minutes? Yeah, that was the question I had to ask myself. It would be hugely embarrassing. And it would have been, look, you know, you think back to the story of John Van Der Velde when he lost the Open Championship and the style that he did.

Well, I think this story might have been the clips that here's a guy that's leading by nine and he's being disqualified. Yeah, it almost feels like if Scotty was leading the PGA and then got arrested and then couldn't have gotten back, it would have been on par with something. Yeah, yeah, that would have been a great documentary. From a notes perspective, cause I like those were great little interstitials throughout, Stevie, do you still have all the notes? And Evan, what was the most eye-opening part of just seeing those? I've kept all the stats and all the notes and

and the Yardage books which have a lot of... Every year you go to a tournament, you get another Yardage book because there might be a few changes now and instead of you, I'd get the new Yardage book, but I always keep the old one because I would make so many notes on them and it's just easier to do it that way. And sometimes if it was a lucky charm Yardage book, you know, it was a book that I'd used before and he won the tournament, I'd keep using it sort of thing. So you know, I kept all my notes. And yeah.

But the notes to Tiger, like the ones that you would write them after a round or after a tournament. Yeah. And I kept those. I didn't put any of those, the words of those in the book. But no, I kept all those notes. And every now and again, I just take a look at those notes. Yeah, there's been a lot.

Like, you know, I wasn't a phone guy. I was the last person in the world probably to go to an iPhone. I just had a flip phone in that. And well, previously even having a flip phone, I didn't have a phone, but Tiger got to the point where he got sick of trying to get a hold of me at a hotel. He actually gave me a phone.

But yeah, no, that was just a different way or not a different way. It was the way I communicated. So I found it quite good. And he liked it as well. Yeah, he Steve thankfully did did let me put just a few of those notes in the book. One of them, it made the Stephen, the Stephen Ames story we all know, nine and eight, is one of my favorite things in the history of sports. And Steve's note writing, he actually showed me the note that he wrote, you know, to and from tiger around that match.

And it just made one of the coolest stories I've ever heard in sport, even cooler. It just puts an exclamation point on it. But I think just the fact that they actually wrote like letters to each other, you know other frequently throughout tournaments, that to me was like a huge light bulb went off because I was like, that is legitimately never been heard before. It's such a cool dynamic of their relationship. You always wondered, why were they so good?

It wasn't just because Tiger was the greatest golfer who's ever lived or Steve's arguably the greatest caddy who's ever lived. That certainly played most of the role in that, but it was also the way they treated each other, communicated to each other. And I just found that so unique. And the fact that Steve reveals that in the book, like spent 12 years with Tiger,

it's been 25 years since the slam and only now in the book are those notes coming out. It was just such a huge rush as a reporter, as now an author that you're just like, wow, things are going into this book that are truly like a gift from Steve to golf fans. It was really exciting, Steve. I'm glad you let us put a few of those in there, just the types of notes you would write encouraging each other. But then

the Stephen Ames letter was just incredible. Yeah, there's some days after, you know after an incredible day or on the flip side, on a day that was really poor, I'd like to leave a note, A, either congratulate them on an unbelievable job today, you've played so well, or, hey, Tiger, I realised it was a tough day today. Tomorrow, if we can focus on hitting more fairways

or not short-signing ourselves so much, something to always give him something to think about to the next day of that. Yeah, it was quite a unique thing when you look back because I've never done it with anybody else and it's probably somebody, it's something that's not been done between two players. But, you know, I just leave that note on his desk

or on his bed, depending on what time of the day it was. And I knew that he always get it and he always appreciated it. And, you know, when I come to typically, you know I always get the club from his room. Or if it wasn't that, you know, he'd just hand me a note when I got in the car or something. So yeah, it was pretty special.

That's cool. Yeah, I was blown away at how like acute the observations were, but also how, how direct and constructive the feedback was as well. So you had never done that with any of your other players before. Like that was something you started doing with Tiger.

Yeah, I don't recall exactly how it happened and when it first happened, but I've got a bit of a suspicion that the Steven Ames things was the thing that triggered me off because it was just, you know, I was just amazed that a guy would even say that. A guy like Tiger who's such a competitor in that,

you know, you don't want to ever give a guy a little bit of fire in the belly, even an additional fire in the belly. And I think that's where it started. I left a note to him and just said, you know, that was just absolutely outstanding today. And that's where, I think that's where it started. I left a note that I haven't just said, that was just absolutely outstanding today. And I think that's where it started. And we continued on.

Yeah, and some of these notes, they weren't just notes, some of them they were actually letters. It was a really meaningful way to express something because you'd read, I'd get the note back from Tiger and of course you'd read it immediately when you got it. And then a day or two later you'd read it again. And it just made the bond even stronger

and the thinking and the thought around the way each person thought and responded to the message that they gave or that I gave Tiger. Yeah, it was really good. So I think it's interesting though, from an outsider's perspective, we just saw the hardest of hardcore competitors that had this, wasn't gonna show,

I don't wanna call letter writing weakness. I don't mean it that way, but you wouldn't know this about this guy. Like I never knew, just, I guess, what stuck out to me about some of the notes back to you, especially after wins, were the specific examples where he would very clearly credit you with a specific thing that happened that week that

helped him win, and how much he emphasized that you helped him reach his goals. And so much of how the perspective of the book is how his goals became your goals. You're kind of living his dream along with them. And I just found that kind of perspective interesting. I'm wondering if you could speak on that anymore. Well, look, one of the most, not intriguing things,

but one of the most things I have the utmost respect for this guy is, and it was from the very first day, March 17, 1999, when I put Tiger's wood bag on my shoulder for the very first time, and obviously I was very nervous about it as well, a lot of fanfare around that. The first day was the Pro-Am at Bay Hill, and after the round and that, he lived close by,

so the very first week I came from, he would do his practice away from the course, and I'm new to him, and I wasn't jumping in his car and going back to his house. As the relationship developed, that would change. But he said, Stevie, thanks very much for today. Well done. Great job. He said it after every round. It stuck with me. I couldn't believe it.

No golf pro that I gave for had ever thanked me after every round. Obviously when they do good and whatever, but when they have a real shit round, they can't get away from you quick enough. Sometimes they can't get away from you. But he thanked me after every round he played a golf. That is something that, you know, it just blew me away. And every year he took the time. You know, when he finished his round, there's obviously a lot of media around.

He's got commitments. He's TV channels, one of TV time, you know, when he finished his round, there's obviously a lot of media around, he's got commitments, he's TV channels, you know, TV interviews, whatever it might be, but he made a point after every single round to thank you. And that's, you know, that's something I don't think there's too many pros or Ks can say that the player that they came for thanked them after every single round. Because sometimes, you know, you finish on the 18th hole, and a lot of golf tournaments, the 18th hole and a lot of golf taunts, the 18th hole is a difficult hole and you finish really poorly to

the point where you've either lost a taunt or you might've missed the cut. And the guy's just going, they just grabbed their bags into the locker and pack up as quick as they can and get out of there quick enough without thanking anybody, not Tiger, he thanked me every single day that I carried from him. He thanked me, which was something that you wouldn't think would go on. Like to add to that, when I went to Steve's house in Auckland, his bar and like the billiards room is just the most incredible shrine. Like it's a mini museum to him and Tiger, also Greg and Ray Floyd and a few others.

But that was one of the things like there were some images that Tiger hand wrote messages to Steve on and we couldn't use the images that they were written on because they were, you know, various companies and whatnot. So I just sort of transcribed the messages from those. And I think the one that stuck out to me like the hardest was Southern Hills where he said like, love always your friend Tiger Woods. And I thought like, you just don't get that from world number ones these days. They're not that in touch with their emotions and the people around them and things like that. They're a little disconnected. But the other one

was I couldn't really pinpoint which open championship it was, but it was Tiger and Steve walking through long wispy burnt out rough. And Tiger had written and I don't even know if he won that particular open. It was just one where he felt like he wanted to give Steve a nice gesture and he wrote basically, as always, Stevie, it's just you and me, your buddy, Tiger Woods. And it's like, he got painted and fairly so as he's like, emotionally distant robot who just kept winning

golf tournaments, but behind the scenes, especially with Steve, he was really connecting with the people that meant the most to him and letting them know that, hey, like I value your friendship, I value the contribution you're making in my golf game. And just like, it's kind of hard to reconcile the image we have of Tiger Woods and then him sitting down at a desk writing, as always, it's just you and me. Like the two don't really mesh with each other based on what we think we know about Tiger. So that was one of the coolest things in my career is seeing Steve's pool room and just seeing like, Whoa, there was really a different side to Tiger Woods

that really only Steve and a few people knew. I was going to say that the 2003 Masters seem seemed like kind of the exception to that where, you know, Tiger would always kind of take responsibility for the shots and say, Hey, you gave me the information, you gave me the advice here, I've got to kind of take it on board and everything. But it seemed like at that very specific moment in his career where he's trying to move on a little bit from Harmon and go towards Haney and take more ownership and everything,

it seemed like that was maybe the one spot in the book where your confidence and clarity kind of, it could have wavered and it didn't, and you really stood up for yourself on that third hole at Augusta that week. Can you take us to that moment? Yeah. People often ask me, did you guys have any arguments or anything on that? And surprisingly, we didn't have very few arguments. and that was the very first one we did on the golf course for sure.

But look, in a nutshell, I'd been out on the golf course early in the morning as I always did at Augusta. Had a walk that would take me about 45 minutes, so I wanted to see where the tee was located on some holes and where the pin was located on some holes, and one of those is the third hole. And on that Sunday, they moved the tee up front,

and the first thing I looked at the tee and where the flag was, okay, it Sunday, they moved the tee up front. And the first thing, I looked at the tee and where the flag was, okay, it's the driver of this tee today. And on the fourth hole, where's the tee located on the fourth hole? So there's some holes and some courses where you'd like to tell the pro, okay, this is where the tee is

and this is where the hole is. And you try and replicate the shot on the practice fairway. What club would it be? And hit that shot a few times on the practice fairway prior to the round. Particularly the fourth hole of Augustus one where you do that, because sometimes the tee's down the bottom there and sometimes the tee's up the back on a Sunday.

Anyway, the tee was on the front on the second, on the third hole, and we got on the tee there, and I'd already told Di I got on the driving range, the tee's down the front there, so there wasn't any thought that from my point that it wouldn't be a driver. And we got on the tee and he didn't want to hit a driver. I was like, why would you not want to hit a driver here today? There is some small percentage that you could knock it on the green

and keep it on the green, make two, or it makes the birdie chance very legitimate. And he was starting several shots back, and he started a 4-4, made the perfect start. Anyway, he didn't want to hit a driver, I talked him into it and he hit an absolute dog shot to the right, you know, he can hit it anywhere left and he hit it, flamed it way over to the right there, made five and basically from there on to walking down

the night fairway, just carried on like an absolute pork chop and you know, he was just like, you know, I'd never seen Tiger carry on like this before. So I just let it rip down the night though, and told him what I thought about his actions and the way he was carrying on and no uncertain terms in that. I didn't realize that I'd been talking to the point

or at a volume where someone picked, some media person picked it up because when you're walking down the night fair at Augusta, down the middle of the fairway, there's nobody near you because the first hole's to your left and the gallery line's way over to the right there, but I obviously was pretty aggressive with my conversation and that.

So, you know, we carried on and it was a disappointing end of the tournament and so forth. And then at the end of the round, after Tiger signed the scorecard, he said, "'Stevie, I really appreciate those words. "'It meant a lot.' "'Because when you get a guy, I really appreciate those words, it meant a lot. Because when you get a guy like Tiger and then you get a lot of people around them, people aren't going to address them down very often because, you know,

it's Tiger Woods, he's up there and you know, so forth, you're just working for them. So, but I gave him, I let him know exactly what I thought about his actions and so forth. And yeah, so he really appreciated that. So that was, you know, it was a point where I'm coming up that 18th hole thinking, well, this might be the last round or it might not be the last round because he might be thinking, well, you know, I'm not gonna take that kind of heat from a caddie before.

So, you know, he would have appreciated that. He'd probably, I'm sure his father Earl would have addressed him in the same manner at some particular point in his junior career. But as far as his time as a professional, I don't believe anyone would have addressed him like I did on that particular afternoon. Yeah, that seemed like a pretty interesting time in his career too, because he's, you kind of laid it out in the book.

He's just out of gas in 02, and then's kind of, you know, starting to move off on his own a little bit with, with regard to the swing and everything. And then there's the anecdote from your field in 03 as well about the rain gear as well. So it seemed like 03 was kind of a pivotal time. You made it through 03. Oh, that was 02. Going for the slam in one year. But yeah, that was, uh, was that your, tell us that, take us to that Saturday. Was that, was that your, uh, other than Pebble that Saturday,

was that one of your worst gaffes? Yeah, look, I mean, it was an absolute stunning morning. I'd been for a lot, run along the beach and it didn't, it didn't require a shirt. It was beautiful. So you went to the golf course, forecast was good. So I was always the one that, if you didn't need the waterproofs and the umbrella, just made the bag heavier to carry. I mean, I guess it's the race car mentality because the race car's gotta be,

you have a certain limit, a weight limit, and you want it as light as possible. So everything, it's just the mentality I always had, the bag's gotta it as light as possible. So everything, just the mentality I always had, the bag's gotta be as light as possible. And you know, we went out in the golf course there and got caught in a storm, a wicked storm with no umbrella, no wet weather gear. But Tiger always laughed, you know,

you look back on things like that. And he understood that. It wasn't the only time I can recall with the players' championship, we were walking down the 16th hole and out of nowhere this massive thunderstorm. Okay, we've only got three holes to go and it's pouring down, we got no umbrella.

I think three times in my time, getting for Tiger, I didn't have an umbrella. So, you know, it became a bit of a joke amongst a lot of the caddies as well. Let's have a look at Tiger's bag. Has he got a broly? He's out. He ain't got a broly. It's not going to rain today, but it might. Well, from the outside looking in, this is something that a lot

of people have critiqued Tiger on over the years is the the multiple swing changes, swing coach changes. I mean, you look at, you know, from a very simplistic standpoint, 2000 was some of the best golf ever played under Butch Harmon. Why would you ever move away from that golf swing? A lot of stuff has been documented, of course, over the years diving into some of that and why that might be. But from your perspective, the guy caddying for him and watching him go through some of these transitions, and I'm just curious to weigh in on him as a golfer under Butch versus him as a golfer

under Hank Haney. Did you understand the changes that he was making? Did you understand him going out on his own around that time in 2003? And did his pursuit of what he wanted out of a golf swing make sense to you? Well, 100%. And firstly, there's been a lot of documentation about his career under Hank and his career under Butch. Obviously I kept an amazing amount of stats and my stats would tell me that his performance under both

players was pretty equal so he might have been a slightly better driver with Hank and he might have been a slightly better short game player with Butch or so forth but there wasn't any glaring differences carrying under the two coaches statistically wise. And he won equally as many taunts, give or take between the two coaches. But I understood that his desire to always get better. And also just, you know, the way that Tiger's wired, mentally wired is different to everybody else.

So when you go and change a coach there, it just presents another challenge. So you think you can get better. So now the challenge is for a short period or a longer period, the challenge is not trying to win majors, it's trying to rebuild my swing so I can get better to win majors.

So you sort of take the focus away and all the pressure off yourself for a little bit and you rebuild your swing. He had this theory and I understand it's kind of hard to explain, but he had a theory that one day I want to own my swing, not rent my swing. And what he meant by that is that he felt that one day you could find a way that you could repeat your swing time and time again effortlessly without a lot of thought. And, you know, you just be able to stand up every day and be able to effortlessly do it.

And that was his reason. But, you know, he had some flaws in the swing under Butch. And he wanted to change that. Then he went to Hank and he rebuilt the swing and then he felt he had a couple of flaws. And, you know, he continually. It's a great mystery, really, why a guy that played as good as Tiger did would do that. But I understood exactly why I did that. And like I said, it presented another challenge

and he loved the challenge. And that challenge for that period of time when he was trying to rebuild the swing, took a little bit of pressure off trying to win the major championships and put the focus into that. And then when you put your focus back into that, those major championships would come back. So yeah, it was, I could understand why he did it.

That was kind of one of my favorite parts of the book was just seeing it from that macro 10,000 foot view after the fact of like living through all of this, you just expect him to win every tournament and all of that. But the ebbs and flows and also, Stevie, like you saying, like just him, him using the swing change stuff to stay engaged and give him a reason to go out and practice and grind his heart instead of just, Hey, I'm at the top of the

mountain. I'm going to stay here regardless was, was super interesting. With the frequency and the record that he was compiling, you just, you know, you, from a person standing afar, you think, well, it could just carry on. But realistically, it can't. Something has to give. And that was one of the reasons that, you know, I think that he did change swing coaches. Not only because he had a flaw in the swing,

but then, like, it presented another challenge. And that gave you that, still that absolute desire to go to the range every it and to start working again. You know, you're tearing down the house and putting it back together, tear it down, put it back together. You know, it's kind of a, it's a genius at work to be fair. Well, and just seeing how, you know, in your words, just how out of gas he was at certain points, but then he would go do some of those shoulder season or off season, you know, the Germany event or going down to New Zealand. And I love that stat in there about he

never finished what worse than 10th or 11th at an appearance fee event. Like he wasn't just taking a bag of cash and mailing it in. He always putting his his full effort and energy into it I thought that was just really remarkable and kind of indicative of his character. Yeah. Oh look, I mean Complete admiration for the way he handled himself when he was an invited player or paid player in an overseas tournament He would give it a hundred percent He knew it like he never finished out of the top 10 and won overseas appearance that I gave him. He took great pride in that. But he understood that.

Every player has an appearance fee and it's based on their record and his appearance fee was considerably higher than a lot of other players. But he gave it 100%. I love that about him. I've seen multiple top players, when they get an appearance fee,

they just turn up and take the money and they treat it like a holiday. They take their family, they take their mates and just have a bit of a holiday, collect the money and carry on. Tiger Woods, absolutely not. He would go there and treat that tournament like any other tournament.

He was there to win the tournament and he took great pride in that. And to be fair, he tried as hard in those tournaments as he did in major championships. He took a lot of pride in that and that's very admirable. And Steve, what about he was in danger of missing the cut at that New Zealand Open at your home course, he grew up caddying on Patapara, Umu Beach, and the weather was terrible and he fought.

I think it was like an even past 72 got him into the weekend, but like, he was in danger of missing his first cut in about five years worldwide. And he just rolled his sleeves up knowing how much it meant to not only Steve but also the New Zealand Open fans who had moved the tournament a month earlier, all sorts of things had been done to get him down there. And yeah, it just shows his character

that he like seriously toughed it out and made the weekend. It would have been somewhat seriously embarrassing for me that Ty Woods getting at my home golf course in New Zealand. But, Neither of you have an excuse. But, you know, he, look, he, he, he, whenever he was in a situation like that and better than any other time, man, this guy could dig deep, man, and find a way to do it.

I mean, he's just remarkable. You know, like Tiger Tigers compiled so many great records, but that 142 consecutive cuts made on the PGA Tour, I mean, that is just some statistic because, you know, the difference between first and making the cut sometimes is very little. You know, it can only be six, seven shots sometimes, but the leading score to what the cut score is and that. And, you know, you've got to believe that you're going to play in that tournament every now and again where you just, you haven't got it for some reason or physically, you're not up to it mentally, you're not up to it. You know, there are so many reasons

that can prevent a player from playing it as best and to think that you could go that length of time without missing a cut is absolutely remarkable. Steve, a couple of master's stories that kind of blew my mind a little bit. A, Jesper leaving his clubs at home, playing the masters. And then the second one was you, you moving the clock hands there on the main scoreboard. Can you tell each of those stories? It's one of my favorites in the book. That was just such peak Steve Williams. Yeah.

Oh, look, you know, firstly, yes, but yeah, leaving his clubs, you know, I mean, that's pretty hard to explain, but when you know, yes, but that's not hard to believe. But like, yeah, so Tiger, you know, one thing he, if there's one thing he didn't like about Augusta is that he couldn't go about his, you know, dawn 30 practice rounds, you know,

30 minutes after the sun goes up because they wouldn't allow you to tee off there to eight o'clock in the morning. And, you know, Tiger loved getting out there before the crowds got in. When you play a practice round at many of these tawns, he'd almost complete the round or sometimes have completed the round before all the crowds there. But at the gates open at Augusta at eight o'clock, and that's when the first tee time is for practice round. So we went over to the pulling green there and it's got a clock on the first tee and the hands are movable.

And it says first tee off not to eight o'clock. So I just went around and changed it to 7.30. So we got on the tee there and there's all these people scrambling, what's going on here? Well, 7.30, we're off and all the officials are working, looking at, well, hey, what's going on? We all understood it was 8 o'clock, who's changed it? I don't know, whatever. It was complete commotion. And anyway, they worked out what had gone on. So the next day we came around and they'd put a screw in so the hands couldn't be changed. You know, I guess I might've been actually lucky not to get banned from there for doing that because I was going to say, did you get it talking to or did anybody

ever come up? Yeah, I was told, but look, you know, the guy that the time that was, who was the starter actually, was a guy that I actually knew a little bit. He was a friend of Ray Floyd's and that and he was, he got, you know, he saw the humorous side of it, not the, some of the old geysers and their green blazers didn't agree with that. Love that. 2006 Open Championship. I think it's probably one of my favorite golf memories of all time. Just how burned out that place was and seeing those little poofs of dust and the finish and all of that stuff. But the strategy to not hit driver, you talk about a little bit in the book. So that kind of originated and you presented that to Tiger,

Monday Tuesday or Wednesday of that week and said, hey, here's the plan. I formulated it. This works. What do you think? Yeah. I'll give you a little bit of a thought of how much pressure is working for a guy like Tiger. So he's not played at the Hoyle like before, obviously. And we land there. He went there a little bit earlier. Saturday. Yeah, we landed there a little bit earlier. And get and the minute we get to the house where we're staying at, he says, I see, get out there. I want you to go and have a look at that course. Yeah, sweet. So out we go. I walk the course and get a pretty good look at it. I come back and we're having lunch. And I said

to him, Tiger, I've had a good, you know, I have a good look there. And I said, Look, this would be a good course to leave your driver out of the bag. And that was based on the fact that at this particular point in time, his mid to long iron play was as good as it gets. You know, my statistics would tell me how good his mid to long iron play was. So I realised in a lot of these holes, you're going to be hitting it further back and having quite considerably more clubbing to the green than what most players would be hitting. And it just eliminated the risks.

Those, I looked at a lot of these bunkers, you know, when you walk around and you're measuring golf course in your book, you'd have a bunker and I'd put an X in it, which means you can't go on that one. And what that means is you couldn't advance a ball to the green from that bunker. Or you put a tick in it where you say,

okay, if you go on this bunker, you can get it on the green. Of course, unless it goes hard up against the lip. But you know, most bunkers, if it's one of the ones that'll have a tick in it where you say, okay, if you go on this bunker, you can get it on the green. Of course, unless it goes hard up against the lip. But most bunkers, if it's one of the ones that have a tick in, would mean the ball, if it did reach the bunker, it would only just be getting in it. And it would safely say that you could advance the ball to the green. And I had so many bunkers in my book drawn with an X on it. So the ones you just couldn't go in.

So we discussed that. And that's where it was such a great relationship. He didn't need to quantify that. He said, okay, that's great. We're not going to have a driver here. And it was a pretty amazing feat to go around. He actually did hit driver once on the first day on one of the par fives. I guess the wind direction made it that you could have a driver. But to play a major championship like that

and dissect the course like that. But my thought going from that practice round or from that walk in the course and telling Tiger was that just based on my stats telling me how good his middle to long iron play, and that's exactly what it was. I mean, he hit so many greens with a, with a full, you know, sort of four to seven iron, whereas a lot of guys were using seven, eight,

nine iron. Just an interesting week too with the Faldo pairing and then, you know, obviously the finish there and the sunlight popping through. That was kind of a theme I noticed too was just how different the pairings were then versus now. It seems like now we always have these featured pairings or superstar pairings where there were a few that just left me scratching my head. Like the one with Miko Illinan and Mike Weir at the 2001 Masters and Faldo won 30 they're in a six as well. It was Faldo and Shingo Katayama with his cowboy hats. Yeah, look, I mean, that was a fascinating pairing. And we've alluded to that in the book there,

that some of these events that Taiga played and some of the pairings, and if you go back to Torrey Pines in 2008, Evan, you can tell me if I'm thinking right here, is that that was the first tournament where they paired the number one, two and three player in the world. So it was Phil Mickelson, Adam Scott,

and Tiger Woods from memory. That in itself gave Tiger, you know, like he, if there's one player that Tiger didn't like losing to, it was obviously Phil. And that gave him extra motivation there, despite the injury and how he was feeling. You know, like that just gave him the extra bit of motivation that helped.

And there was numerous pairings. You know, we go to Val Harless, Jack Nicklaus' last major. And like you say, at 2006 he's paired with Faldo and Faldo's made a couple of comments about Tiger's swing that he didn't think was warranted. And he's gonna prove to him, hey, you watch me play, then you tell me whether you think you need to be making comments about my swing.

So there's a lot of those little things that not people would realize, just give this guy a little bit more motivation and help those weeks to become absolutely brilliant weeks. Did Tiger pay attention to what people said? Like, did he take, you know, not physical notes, but did he take note of critiques and criticisms of people in the media that he keeps score?

Did he read stuff? Oh yeah, I mean, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, he, you know, he didn't like then somebody critiquing him unfairly. This is a guy that's at the top of the tree for the majority of his career and playing golf like nobody else has. You know, he's not really any fairness

and, you know, trying to debate whether he's doing right or wrong. So if I'm a member of the public and I hear, you know, I remember some details around a public breakup between Tiger Woods and Steve Williams, you know, I remember some details around a public breakup between Tiger Woods and Steve Williams, you know, about over a decade ago. And I hear that he's writing a book. I might think it might be a tell all. I was certainly not the reaction that I had after after reading this book though. But I'm curious if you can, I would say that your

guys kind of break up it was even more confusing, but also in the same way it made more sense in terms of how chaotic his life was at that time and how your guys relationship changed post scandal for him. But I'm wondering what kind of color you can give, almost I forget how many years later it is on you guys splitting up, all the success you guys had together,

why it made sense that you guys split up and what your perspective is on that several years later now. Yeah, look, I mean, when you're caring for a player, it's not like a normal job where you sign a contract or there's any given, you know, it's a week-to-week proposition. And in the caddy world, we understand that, you know,

if you're caddy for someone for five years or longer, it's considered a very good stint with a player. And caddies and players, when things, when a player's performance goes not to their liking, it's very common for them to, you know, to look for a new caddie, look for a new coach, a new psychologist, whatever it might be. So, you know, it's a job you could say you're on tender hooks, but I never felt like I was on tender hooks with Tiger. I was so brought into his goal of winning 18 or 19 to surpass Jack's record. And I brought him to that goal

and that's what everything was driven towards. But when you break up with a guy, after things unraveled with Tiger a little bit, for some reason, we just didn't have the same mojo. He wasn't quite the same, I wasn't quite the same. At that particular time, when I went back to cave with Tiger at Augusta, it just, even though he played well in the tournament, his first tournament back, it just didn't

have the same feeling. There wasn't something quite right about it. And that's just the way it unfolded in that I don't have any hard feelings about it at all. But when you look back now and everything, and you have time to reflect on Tiger's career and being able to be part of that and have having, you know, watch some arguably some of the best golf, you know, certainly over a long period of time. It's pretty special. And like the fact that, you know, you do split up it,

you know, when you're cutting for somebody, it's gonna end. It's just, you know, how and when it's gonna end, it always does. I mean, you know, you can't cater for the one person ever because, you know, it's like anything, it always does. I mean, you can't cater for the one person ever because it's like anything, you gotta bring something fresh to the table and when you're caring for somebody, you're always constantly aware that you can't be the same week in, week out,

year in, year out. You've gotta bring something new to the table, you've gotta change ways. So at some point in time, it gets to the point where, geez, I've tried everything, but I never got to, you know, never found myself trying to make too many changes in that.

But when it all unfolds and that, you know, it's just, that's the way it goes, putting a play on caddy. And it's having looked back now, you know, I don't have any regrets about how it happened. It's just, you know, perhaps I shouldn't have gone to caddy for Adam Scott because he didn't want me to. That was the thing that tipped it over the edge. But, well, it's just what, you know.

It could have been something else the next week, you know. Oh, look, yeah. Hey, look, you know, I was just so fortunate to be able to caddy for somebody for such a length of time that played golf like he did and to be involved with somebody and get a firsthand look at something. Like, you know, I'm a firsthand look at something like that. I'm a golf fan like everybody else that loves golf

and I've got the best seat in the house because I'm up close watching the guy do his craft better than anybody else done his craft. So pretty fortunate in that respect. Evan, the team competitions, President's Cup and Ryder Cup, they kind of take a back seat. I don't think there's even a mention of it

other than the story one until the fifth or sixth chapter. Was that like a conscious decision or was that just something that, hey, this is in the kind of the periphery because like everything is in pursuit of these 18 or 19 major titles? Yeah, I would say so. We do mention the President's Cup with the Tiger Who, Paul T, yeah, and of course, there's a great anecdote about when calc sent. Who was it? Steve was tiger and Sonia's plan or practice round with him back out to play because I had played before the fans were killed into the not calc of here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. I mean, kind of strange. Yeah,

back out. Yeah. back out, yeah. So it wasn't like a conscious decision. In fact, the answer's pretty boring in that it was more of a word count thing. You know, there's obviously one cup per year and to really do one of those cups justice within the book and the flow of the book, you had to dedicate like, you know, a few pages towards it

and it ends up being just, we had to get this thing down to 95,000 words and it was so much that there was, there was a fair bit on the cutting room floor, including Ryder cups and whatnot. But I suppose, I suppose his role in Ryder cups and his record, it didn't warrant the very best stories that Tiger and Steve had together. And also for the fact that Steve, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the Ryder cup ended up not being one of your favorite events. And therefore you didn't have as much, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the Ryder Cup ended up not being one of your favorite events and therefore you didn't have as much, you know, brilliant storytelling as you do 361 days of the year, kind of 362 days of the rest

of the year. So it was just one of those things where we couldn't really squeeze it in there. But there were a few moments where it was very warranted. I think 2010 maybe, Steve, where you were actually going to go home to New Zealand. You were going to miss the weather delayed single session. And then you decided some commentator had like bagged Tiger on the coverage said that he didn't care about the USA team. And, and Steve said, well, fuck it, I'm staying and I'm going to caddy and he beat Francesco Molinari. I think it was four and three or three and two the next day. But yeah, other than that, it was kind of hard. It didn't really fit the flow

and the narrative of Tiger and Steve throughout their 12 years, if that makes sense. If anything, it like his cut the relationship of the team events compared to his individual career makes more sense to me of like, this guy was a psycho about this stuff in the best way. But like, yeah, the the the winning Ryder Cups and Presidents Cup is not what he dreamed about as a kid. And like he got a lot of you know, a fair amount of flack for that. Maybe

that's even a little unfair. But like, look at look at how he handled it. Look how he treated normal golf events compared to just major championships. Like it's all about the major championships. It makes a lot of sense to me. Steve, there was one one that was on the cutting room floor. And it was when you told it might have been Stuart sink or someone else in the team what club to hit into a par four and then his caddy gave you an absolute bollocking after that.

Yeah that was at the bell through the Paul Aizinger. Steve told Aizinger what club to hit and it was it maybe even in a practice round Steve or maybe it was in one of the sessions but Aizinger's caddy didn't particularly like Steve giving him a club. And I think he suggested that aizing a club up because it was into the wind and he confronted Steve in the dining room after that. Yeah, the the the Ryder Cup and the Presidents Cup, you know, that they they're very interesting events in that. But like you said, the book didn't warrant have we could have had a

I mean, you know, you could write a whole chapter on these events and that, but it's like not the right flow for the book, the team events. Yeah. You guys were famous, unfortunately, for a couple missed high fives, fist bumps. There's some pictures out there, you know, that maybe aren't the best. What was your best executed celebration moment between the two of you? The best executed? Well, look, I mean, I guess the most memorable execution, I guess you could call it was at Hoy Lake, you know, coming down there at Hoy Lake and just that afternoon was, you know, very overcast, muggy, humid afternoon and the sun hadn't been out all day. And when it shone through, you know, the first thing that came

into my head was, you know, that's Tiger called his father Pops, that's Pops looking down on you. And then it dawned on me, you know, what I'd just said to him. And then, but then I, you know, then he played a second shot onto the green and so forth and went up there. And I could see when he went to Marcus Ball and then the tournament was already won, he had it in the bag, but I could see something was,

I don't know what it was, but I could see he just didn't have this excitement about him all of a sudden. And then when he putted out, I knew straight away what it was, the words that I said to him, he was thinking about his father. And for that brief period of time there, from when I mentioned to him, walking down the fairway to the green and that, he'd forgotten about,

this is the Open Championship, I've just put my name on this, Claret Jug for the third time, I'm up to this many, mate, whatever, you know, the thought process goes through when you win a major. And now it's all about pops and that. And, you know, I kind of broke down myself a little bit and we're hugging away. It was like, you know, like two strangers or two lost souls have met each other after many, many years now. So, you know, like, you know, it wasn't a high five that,

but it was a, you know, a very, very memorable exchange there. And it showed the whole world a different look about Tiger Woods then. No one had ever seen this as a guy that, you know, is very robotic and, you know, very workman-like when he's at the golf course. And now everybody's seen a different side of him, and including myself and everybody, even people in his inner circle had never seen that side of Tiger so that was you know pretty memorable right there. Was that I mean because I've always noticed about that clip too of the hug is you give him a hug after the round but you kind of you you go to pull away like it's a normal hug you guys would give each other and he doesn't let go like he's the one that he was ready to let go. He was trembling. He had his hands wrapped firmly around me and he was trembling.

Everybody has a great respect for their father. We all know that. And that's just another example of it. This is a son who dearly misses his father and it's his first major championship that he's won without his father. And when I said to him, that's Pops looking down on, you know, he's, he's legitimately believing him. You know, pops is looking down on me. And that was, that's ray of sun that came through.

And just the way that shone through, that was him looking down. So it was an unforgettable, you know, moment I'll never forget. Steve, how's your game these days? Do you, do you play more than you used to or have you gotten back into playing or you just kind of race? Yeah, I like to play. When I was working as a caddy, particularly with Tiger, I didn't play a very, very little golf. I mean, there's so much pressure involved with him and that. And, you know, going to the golf courses, you know, it's like going to work almost if you like them. And, you know, my app, everybody's going to have an app. My app golf courses, you know, it's like going to work to almost if you like, and you know, my, my app, everybody's

gonna have an app, my app was racing. You know, I just love racing. And that was my way of getting away from it. And I didn't play a lot of golf. But you know, I love to play golf now, you know, I'm 61 years old that retired and golf is a game that I love. So you know, I love to play two or three times a week with my friends and get up there, my wife plays a little bit. So you know, it's a great game to play, obviously. And I'm a golf fan, golf nut. So yeah, I'm an avid golfer. We, I feel like we could do, I mean, just your career,

even outside of Tiger, pretty remarkable with Ray Floyd and Greg Norfin for years and years and years. Ray Floyd in particular, someone who like, he was a little bit before my time as a golf fan, but seems like an absolute living legend and just kind of larger than life character that, that more of a character than we seem to have on tour these days. What's the story about Raymond Floyd that typifies him or sums him up pretty well for you? that typifies him or sums him up pretty well for you. Yeah, look, he was a guy that had, you know, a very unorthodox player

and went about things a little bit differently. He was well known for his, what they call the glare. He had that really steely-eyed look that he could give you. Just a great competitor. The one thing I always remember about Raymond is like, he'd be having a putt and he'd say, get over here, Steven, will this ball in. You can make it go in.

He loved that line. You can will the ball in. He said, I'll just hit it, you will it in. And he'd make me stand a little bit closer than what you would normally stand as a caddy. And he'd just say, come on, get over here, Steven, will this ball in. I mean, he had that belief that you could make the ball go

and the power of the mind could make the ball go in. So he was an absolutely fantastic character. He was like a father figure to me. I truly respected him. To be fair, he probably didn't have as much ability, natural ability as some of the other players. He worked incredibly hard. He was a very gifted chipper of the ball, but

he had some not as naturally gifted with his long game as some of the other players. Remarkable player, had a great career and he was a fantastic guy to work for. I have complete admiration and yeah, really enjoyed working for him. I wanted to go out and ship like immediately when I was, I wanted to go out and ship like immediately when I was hearing about the Ray Mondos and just like all the ways that he chipped the golf ball, like which is so foreign to me. I'm a terrible chipper. The golf ball was like, man, like that's, that's a skill and a talent that I would just kill for to be able to manipulate different wedges. Yeah.

You know, when I first went to Tiger and cave Cave Tiger, pretty much every time he'd just grab his 56 degree wedge and chip with it, every chip shot he had. And through time, I was explaining to him that the method that Raymond had that he chipped the ball, he never ever putted the ball from off the green, always chipped it. Because he believed that the ground between you and the green, there's a chance that if you putt it, that the ball can get off line, but if you chip it, it won't get offline. And he would chip from anywhere from a four iron to a sand iron. And I became very accustomed to it, to what I'd know every time what club you'd use,

because basically it's what club do I need to take the, to loft the ball from where I am to the green to allow where I am to the green to allow it to run to the hole. And to the point where occasionally Tiger would say, what club is it Steve? Any, I'm going to do a Raymundo here. Now Raymond Chippen more than anybody, he was unbelievable. You probably wouldn't recall the shot,

but at the 14th hole at Augusta on the old green, when the pin was located on Sunday on the right. It was like five that that really steep mound on the right and it was five above it and he chipped it in from below the hole. I mean, it was unbelievable shot. Hit it really hard with a spin to the bank one bounce up and that and it's one shot that I'll never forget because I had a friend of mine from New Zealand who was over watching the tournament. This guy was probably 250 pounds and I saw him jump six feet off the ground and I joked with this guy all the time. He was standing over onto the pine tree left with the 14th green and he hit the branches of the tree. I'll never forget it. So yeah, he hit some incredible short game shots, Raymond. That's funny.

You said that about, about the tiger chip. Cause I remember there's this clip I that from Bay Hill where Tigers off the green by that off the fringe by that much. And he chipped it and I was watching something. Why? Well, I do not understand why he's chipping this. And that makes a whole heck of a lot of sense now that you, I'll just say that. But, uh, I, Stevie, I promise we could keep you for hours upon hours upon hours,

but I know you gotta get, you rest it up for your race tonight. But I'm curious, Evan, uh, I, Stevie, I promise we could keep you for hours upon hours upon hours, but I know you got to get you rested up for your race tonight. But I'm curious, Evan, uh, any final thoughts and departing thoughts on, on anything we, we potentially missed here today, but you're just kind of your perspective on, on getting to show this experience with Steven right in this book. Yeah. Um, I mean, you guys have come a lot of ground, so it's been amazing. It's just like, to me,

the thing that stands out most is just like the knucklehead nature of the two of them. Like you put Tiger up on a pedestal, to be fair to Steve, he got put up on a pedestal as well. And then behind the scenes, they're just two, like in Australia, we would call them boof heads. You know, just like knuckleheads, like having a laugh, going around the world, winning these historic golf tournaments.

And they were so much more normal and relatable than maybe we gave them credit from behind the shield. I suppose it's like death by a thousand cuts in terms of like, what do you love about this book? And it's like, I can't split just the anecdotes from why Tiger switched to a TaylorMade driver for one week. And Steve recalling 22 years later, the exact golfer, the exact moment where Tiger said,

I want distance and I'm gonna switch drivers for a week, knowing what a shit show that would cause with Nike and all the equipment journalists who are so great at what they do. And just moments like that, you know, like you guys mentioned winding the clock back at Augusta National in 2002. But for me, the thing that stands out the most is

we kind of don't appreciate the ebb and flow as TC said before, or the rollercoaster of Tiger. He wasn't always winning seven of 11 majors. There were a lot of, there was self-doubt, there were swing changes, there were coaching changes, times where he wanted to walk away from the game. And for Steve to have the hindsight 25 years later, 20 years later, and say, now that I've let the dust settle, this is why I think Tiger did that, this is why I think that's why I've been able to find sight 25 years later, 20 years later and say, now that I've let the dust settle, this is why I think Tiger did that. This is why I did that with Tiger. But for me, the thing that stands out the most is like the little bits of memorabilia that Steve has clung onto all these years later.

They're just like living relics of Tiger history. You know, Steve's got the glove where Tiger threw it to him after riding 21 as their major. Their major goal was actually 21, whether you sort of look into the, the joking side or the serious side of that, but they were really trying to get to 21 majors. And, and Tiger wrote that on a glove before he, just after he had hit the shot in the dark at Firestone, threw that to Steve. Steve kept that in a sandwich bag that he could zip up so

that it didn't get too aerated or things like that. It's just those little fine behind the scenes details that really like made me feel like this is true. Like Steve has sat down for eight months and given us the biggest backstage pass to him and Tiger over their 12 years together than I think I've ever seen. And just being chosen by Steve, someone who I look up to as an idol was such an honor.

Yeah, that's great. The whole thing about Tiger living vicariously through Stevie at certain moments I loved too. That was such an endearing. Yeah, the running a capalua, which we'll tease that out. And just those stories that you've heard like on the grapevine, the urban legends, and then for Steve to tell me,

and then for me to go and speak to Chris DiMarco or whoever it might be and say like hey how did that that story exactly play out and get that behind the scenes thing getting like the private jet ride home from Scotland after you'd won the open championship in 2000 at St Andrews like it's just such a cool backstage pass and yeah I really consider it a gift from Steve to the golf world. Amen the book is called Together Weared. You got it right here. If you're watching this on video and you can get anywhere, you get your, uh, preorder if you're listening to this right away and it'll be out next week in the U S so thank you both to Evan and to Steve for joining us both for writing

the book and for, for telling some stories with us. We greatly appreciate it. And we'd love to have you guys back sometime. Yeah, no, we great to be on the show. We've, everyone I know is very proud of the book and we know that the readers are going to enjoy the story and yeah, Evan's done a great job writing it and thanks for having us on your show. Thank you, boys. Crack on. Thanks, guys.