No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 111: Mike Clayton

Episode Date: December 26, 2017

Mike Clayton joins to talk about the state of the game of golf, his career in golf course design, the issues with modern technology, and golf in Australia. He also tells the story of his... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 111: Mike Clayton appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Alright, this is it. This is your last warning of 2017 to get in now for PGA Tour Live for the 2018 season. You buy it now, you get a full season's worth at 39.99 PGA Tour Live dot com for that. And again, last warning for the Calloway Golf gift guide, Calloway Golf dot com slash gift guide. A bunch of amazing deals there. Just go check it out, especially just to see what Chad is repping in his video where he explains to you that you can buy the Chromesoft Troopers Balls for $31.99. That's it for now. How about in? That is better than most.

Better than most. coming to you from Metropolitan Golf Club here in Melbourne area, professional golfer, caddy, architect, and writer that I cover everything. Mr. Mike Clay, you got it, that's it, that's everything. Everyone I talk to says you're the guy to talk to just about golf in the San Bel area. You grew up in this area of playing, correct? Well, I grew up north of here, really. Yeah.

In Playscold, Aston, which is now a housing estate, sadly. And I came here to play this, I came to, I watched the first golf tournament ever come to, was here in 1968 before I played even. My dad just took me to watch Peter Thompson because he was the best player and that's what he did. And then I first, my uncle was a member here, so I played here in 1972, then joined here in 1975, so. But I watched all the sand belt tournaments from the, you know, 1969 was the Dunlop tournament with Devlin Beaturino and all of them, Muddy played and you know, it was kind of a, seemed like the biggest thing in the world to me at

the time. A friend of mine came for Trevino, he was 16, he gave him a whole bag of pack of spools and a brand new set of the clubs he used, which were the four runners of that Australian Blade Max Lys, that was set that made in Sydney. So yeah, and I could just obviously grab playing torments here and playing and what takes up most of your time today? Well, there's design stuff really. So we can tell us a little bit about your design group. Well, we started off, it had my name on it, there were two other partners, and that business went for 95, we started until 2015 years, and then it reformed us with Jeff Ogleby, so Ogleby Clayton, Cochney & Mead, so Mike

Cochney and Ashley Mead work for us in the original business So we kind of went out on our own in 2010 so where it's kind of What we just want to get 70 years in but yeah, you know, it's was 9.95 was when we really started what made you want to get into the design business Well, I was always interested in it, but I had no thoughts ever going into it and I knew the two guys that were both super-intensive, and Bill and John Sloan was at Woodlands and Bruce Grant was at the national, and they thought there was room for another design coming to Australia.

So I was playing in Europe, they kind of landed and we spoke about it, and I said, yeah, I was interested in it. So we started from there really. During the height of your playing days would you say you were, I don't know, a student of the game when it comes to architecture, is that something that's always interesting? I was always interested in it. Yeah, I was always I'd always read about it. I knew who Tom Simpson was and you know, those guys and I knew who obviously Mackenzie because he was the main guy here. So I'd read the word out, it was golf and I'd bought, I remember buying the Marone, the confidential guide from Rod McEwan and the bookshop at the open. Maybe, I don't know which one, maybe Sinan was 80, 80, and that was 84, but it was anyway. So I'd read the anatomy of

a golf course. I was reading the links and I was reading, you know, I'd read McKenzie, so I'd read about it a lot and thought about it, but when I was playing, I'd no thought of Kenny Edward as a working in the business I'd never thought of it at all. And I wouldn't have in this, these other two guys that asked me to, I don't know what I would have done, but that was how I got into it.

Did you know that playing in this area, I mean, I don't know exactly when you started playing in this area and a lot of these courses, did you realize how special the courses were in this area as a youngster? Yeah, I think I did. I think I had a reputation, so it was when you were a kid, you hear about that, great the soundboard is, and you swallow that largely, which is, and it was pretty true. But I think when I first played at Royal Melbourne

was when I really first understood that there was a different level again to golf and there was a point to hitting your ball with different parts of the fairway. I mean, Geoff, I'll be Geoff grew up cutting there. And he was telling you the same thing. He said, I really, when I really,

when I couldn't, he'll talk about when he was a short hitter. And he had to play the first hole on the, on the east course, which he didn't now would drive on the green. So I had to go and hit it over in the left hand rough, because I couldn't stop the green. I couldn't stop him from the green from the fairway. So, you know, I had to make the angle from the left and run it up the gap. And, you know, so I think when you play a course like that, you realize that there's a, there's a whole different dimension to golf and just seeing the bowl. Really? What do you think happened between what is known as the golden age of architecture?

I felt like, I don't know what you want to call the period from the late 40s through mid-90s. It's kind of viewed as the dark age of golf architecture. I think it's interesting. Because I think now is a really interesting point in the history of architecture I think there was that core of great architects, you know Don Ross, Thomas Simpson, Fowler, McKenzie, Colt, Tilling, all those guys who did all that great work Who just got stopped in their tracks by the Depression? Nothing that was the end of it or custom was the end of it and then the war, austerity, no money, Trent Jones came out of that pack and Dick Wilson

who did the back nine here at Metropolitan. And I guess they were the main guys really. There was no golf courses on Australia really. A guy called Sam Burriman, it was a superintendent, handed out it a couple of courses, Verne Morkham who was the superintendent, Kexamed out as a couple of courses, Vern Morkham, who was the superintendent at Kexnate, he did quite a bit of work, but there was nothing that was particularly very good really. And the world was probably a bit the same.

And then I think, if you're running historical history of it, then I think it probably morphed into from Trent Jones and Wilson to the era. Pete Dyer was in the obviously, but the era of the famous golf pro architect, I mean, Nick Liss came here and did the Australian, the first job he did on his own ever, and that celebrated famous golf pro became the big thing. And golf course architecture, parmer and player and every golf

pro at a golf course is on business and whether they went there or not they had their names on golf courses. A lot of them did. A lot. And a lot of golf courses. And it was an era of mass production. Right. You know, and they did.

Over quality. Yeah. And then I think with sand hills that was at Switch. You think sand hills was the top? Yeah, I think that was the first great course built after Augusta, but credible golf course, cheap, with a famous golf course name, obviously with Bill Croncrenshaw,

but who was not obsessed with building great numbers of golf course. They were worried about building a few golf courses that were great. If they didn't want to do the work, because they didn't like this client or they didn't like the land, they weren't going to do it. Which was not the way to go on for the 15 years before that. What year was that sentence? 92, I think.

92, okay. So they did that place. And then I feel like in the next 20 years don't create this reputation, gill hands, Mike DeVries, guys like that, who, when it's almost done the full circle back to now, the celebrity designers are no longer golf pros, famous golf pros, but they're actually golf course architects. And they're the guys that people want to talk to and they want to hire and they want to do their golf courses.

Because, you know, it amazed me that, you know, Nicklaus's career was built around four majors, really. And everything revolved around that. And most other golf pros, they were just playing week to week. They were trying to make the top 60 or whatever, the top 125 when it changed. They were just playing enough tournaments to try and get their money out. But Jack was so good he could. And that's the way Crenshaw, it looks like, is Ronny's design business.

He's only cares about building the equivalent of made-to-champ, should call of course, great courses. The paper in 100 years is going to go, you know, there's Jack and the customer, they didn't make the choice. There's Ben Crenshaw and Bill Coulter. That's great courses they built. So that was a, so it became,

they were after the triumph of quality over quantity. Yeah. And they didn't care about the money. Right. I don't think they cared about the money. I feel like for such a long time that golf courses were built a well a lot of them were built mostly Especially in the states which is we know where I've played the majority of my golf But built around building houses. Yeah, yeah, so houses and built to be difficult for really

Reasons that are still unknown and I felt like in the last 20 years or so, there's been such a great shift towards making golf fun again, making whole fun. And not, there are not a lot of these courses that have been built out of the core crunch out courses are not championship level golf courses. But that, I felt like a lot of people were designing championship length and level courses that weren't capable or gonna be hosting professional events

and that kind of set the game back. Well, I'm Nicholas, I'm not, I'm, Golf Dodgers had that one list was the 100 hardest courses in America. So, fires don't morph its way into the top 20 in America. Why? Because it's hard. So, you know, when you look at where the national golfing was, I guess it was one point, Golf Dodgers. It wasn't in the top, I don't know. I think it might be the best course in America. It was one of the best five or six probably. It wasn't in the top 40 I don't know. I think it might be the best course in America. It was one of the best file of six, probably. It wasn't in the top 40, because it was not perceived as being difficult.

And so I was not difficult. It was that crazy year when Hard was good and as he was old fashioned. Because I think going back to the other question, the golden age was, so that happened. And that was of course in 1960 or 70, weren't very old. They're only 50, 40, 50 years old.

Then there was the whole new lot of work. And I think now our generation, or the people, at this time, we look back at the two eras, and clearly the first one was the better one, the more productive ones in terms of grade. So people have garnered a much greater appreciation of how great that work was. And I think people will look back in the same amount of time again.

And in 80 years time they'll go, well that started with sandals. And that period there, hopefully it doesn't stop. But that period from 1991 to 2017 was pretty good. That is some great stuff. I mean, it's been a little bunch of really good stuff down the last 15, 20 years. And it's going to continue. Yes, but the other reason why it shouldn't keep going, because the whole bunch of really good architects, who can see a way, I think, to make a living out of it, they're not going to be competing so much

with famous golf pros. You're not going to be going up against it. You're not going to be not considered because Jack Nichols is a Lionel Palmer or some famous Tiger Woods or whoever. Those guys aren't just going to be the no-branders. They get the jobs because they're famous golfers. They were selling houses or in Asia selling memberships or selling prestige.

So Asia was the other place where there's a massive famous golf pro building golf courses. It was just a rush to that stuff that there's probably a whole business in redoing all that stuff and making it better. Russia, that stuff that there's probably a whole business in redoing all that stuff and might get better. I think it kind of goes to looking at Jack Nicholson's career earnings in playing golf versus 5 million.

Yeah, compared to the players of today, he made more money designing courses and there's a reason why he turned out. So many of them. From my amateur viewpoint, I think I may be overly generalizing it to say that Mike Kaiser kind of deserves a lot of, I don't want to say credit, but kind of the shift that we see towards, you know, he wasn't necessarily the first to do this, but the huge investment he made with band and dunes

in A.M. Dairy World Club. Like location to build something that was the test run, essentially, if we build something in the middle of nowhere, our people are going to come, I feel like that has kind of changed the way architecture's done. And another example of that being his involvement with Barn Bougaldoons.

So I remember hearing some story about the land, you finding out about the land, and how did that process of Barn Bougaldoons and what was your involvement in that process like? Well, wait, there was a kid down there, Greg Ramsey, who's family owned a farm near Richard Tatler's farm in Bredport. And we went down there with John Sloan, went down there with, and Bruce Hepner was building Kate Kidnappers for Tom.

And the three of us met Greg on the site, Richard was, we didn't even meet Richard the first time. And we just walked over this and many could see it was great land. It was only a narrow strip between the beach and the farm but it was a narrow strip and you know Greg Reddus, the all-make-you-guys famous speech and as we drove out I mean Bruce saying I've heard that speech a hundred times. I've met that kid a hundred times, I'll run there with his dreaming kid who's to make the crack off course. It will never

it's never gonna happen. So next time we went down there with Tom and Tom thought he was like what the hell am I doing here? You know this kid's got no money. This is this is a joke. This is never gonna happen. We met Richard. Tom we walked the land in the morning. Obviously, again, we saw the same stuff. It was really good. Greg's model was to sell memberships. He was $6,000. Well, Richard, I think, said to Greg, that's fine. You can do the golf course. I'm going to own it. If you can raise the money, you go ahead and let's do this thing. So Greg's model was selling 40 year memberships for $6,000 and he raised $300,000. Not enough to pay for the road in. Tom spoke to Mike Kaiser. Mike came out. He was impressed. He said to Richard, send the money back, the sender or money back, which he did. I think he didn't ever underwrite it, but he said, look, go ahead and do it. If

you're getting a trouble, I'll back you up, but you'll be fine. This is going to work. So Richard took some investors in and built the golf course, basically. And, you know, in fairness, I always thought it would work, as perhaps I was overly optimistic. Tom thought it would work. Car's the thought of it would work. No one else did. Everyone I taught that. I mean, my Bruce Grant, going, Bruce had built some bunkers down there. He'd gone down there.

It was blowing a hurricane. It was, he was sandblasted from six in the morning, till six at night. And he came back to Melbourne. And he said, no one's there to play golf to an assistant joke. It's just impossible. So people thought it was too far away. But it was obvious to me that you could do a great course there. And I was perhaps overly optimistic as I said, but I thought people would come and play

this. This can be really good. And there was nothing. I'd been to band and I'd seen that work, but that was my, and San San Jose. You knew that remote golf would work if enough people would support it. The question was, would enough people support it?

Because it's a good thing about it, is it's cheap to build. All the best golf course in the world is cost nothing to build in the last 20, there have been also the cheapest courses to build. So the lesson is gone find great land built. Now we were at San Valley last year, same thing. It's fantastic. You've heard us mention it many times on this podcast throughout the year, but it was

an unbelievable year for Callaway Golf, and they just launched what is called the photo issue. This is an amazing interactive magazine showcasing their best images and moments of the year. We've got Arnold Palmer's Augusta National Yardage book, custom wedges for the NBA champs, and of course the launch of the number one selling driver. That is the epic. Go to the photoissue.calawaygolf.com and check it out. That's again, the photoissue.calawaygolf.com. I promise you won't regret it. It's a lot of interesting content on there. For now, let's get back to Mike Clayton. What is, so, okay, so you see Barnbuckle dunes,

or the land that it's on when you say, this is great piece of land. What is, I mean, you can see the dunes, you can see the scenery that's right next to the water. What is this soil makeup have to be for you to say, this is great, this is great land. Like what does it look like before any golf is being built? Is it all sand there?

And you know what it can do? It was there? It was sand covered in Marum. So I think the history of that land was that the farmers before Richard had planted Marum on it to stop the sand shifting and blowing over the farm. So the Marum was a cheap, quick growing plant that stabilized the sand dunes. So that was kind of a history of it. But you can see that there was shapes in there and valleys through there. So you can eliminate the marim making the grass pretty easily. Yeah, it's burnt it and we burned it and shaped it and hard to see it. Wow. So it was not, you know, the difficult one.

But you were still growing grass on literally the beach, pretty much the beach. And is it easy to do that? Yeah, I just had an adult in my moments to it and you know, I just fill it up and you know makes something that grass will grow into and you can grow grass on it and from what I gather and somebody like Richard was not a golfer before that event. So he was unbelievably hands-off in the desert. Yeah, it was kind of an architecture. I mean, Mike said to Richard, he said, you should just let him do what they want. So Richard was like the, you know,

I say it was the perfect, it was the perfect, I mean, Client, he just, he had, no, he knew nothing about golf. And I think that got in play golf. So he just said, got into wherever you want. And that's what it's, I asked him, we were down there last month and I said, could you ever have imagined this land, go back 20 years, could you imagine this land

being a destination that people want to visit? He said, no way. No, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him,

I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him,

I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, I see him, to Richard when he bought that farm in 1989 that, you know, one day you'll have two of the three best golf courses in Australia on this Petal land and two courses in the top 50 in the world. It was like, what are you completely crazy? So and the good thing was that people supported it. People turned up and they went there and they liked it. The reason it works, I think, is it's a whole experience of going there, start going there, having dinner there,

sleeping in the cabins, getting the morning, having breakfast. I think people enjoy going there and getting away. And if you built the same golf course an hour from Melbourne, I think it would people would go there and they'd plan drive home again. And they would completely miss the experience of

the great part about is the effort it takes to get there. Sure. Staying in the night there and having dinner with your friends and drinking nice wine and just talking shit and just doing what you do. So the whole experience works. And really well done there. That's the vibe that, you know, I've been abandoned

and I've seen Barn Buggle and it's, the accommodation is like what's perfect about golf. It's not overly fancy. It's exactly what you need. And the sports bar like it lost far you can place bets on horses, and there's TVs against just the perfect hangout for golf. And that has Mike Kaiser's name kind of real.

When Richard did those cabins, we was talking, I said, just make them clean and make them warm. Yeah, we fine. People are not gonna spend time on them. And people who complain about them, like I've heard people say, they're not a company, they're not very good. So they're gonna hate the golf course, too. They're gonna go out there, it's going to be too windy or too cold or too wet or the

bunkers got too much sand or not and not for. And they're not going to enjoy that golf course. Because they're not going to get the point of the, you know, go to Queensland and play a resort course, that's fine. It's nice weather and it's, you know, the golf course is perfect and it's a five star height and that's, that's what you want, that's fine. But, by and big, it's like sandals. It's a bad, it's a clean warm bed and a nice shower that works.

And you put your head down and you get up and you get out of the room and you don't go back to your bed, so you go to sleep again. So why doesn't need to be nothing more than that. And in fairness, you did the rooms that lost farm up more. That's what we stayed in. But it was awesome.

We went to bed at 1 a.m. Yeah. But it was awesome. Yeah. We went to bed at, you know, 1 a.m. or something after the restaurant. We roll up to the first tee at 5.30 a.m. It's perfect. Yeah. We were looking right out the door to the first tee. So what is, what is, I personally hate like ranking golf courses, but do you have a favorite Australian golf course and why?

Well, I, you're going to get in trouble if you don't see my true. No, I always say raw melm because I, you know, yeah, because I think it's what I think you can make a composite course. You can make another legitimate argument that compels the course the best course in the world. Yeah, probably not better than Pine Valley, but if if if one of the criteria have been the best course in the world, it's got to be playable for everybody then. It's more and more playable in Plain Valley. It's an amazing course to grow up and have it in your backyard.

You've got to remember that not to take it for granted. People fly more around the world to come play this place. Because it's in the backyard, I think that's just real moments around the world to come by this place. Because it's in the back yard, I think that's just real much the amount of corner. So, and I always, I've played there a lot, by the 40 years, 45 years, and always enjoyed playing there, and always, it's one course you don't get ever to try to play.

Because before we came, it's one of the top ranked courses in the world. It's usually the top ranked in the entire area, but you start talking to some local people that one might be members of other clubs, but they'll give you their critiques of it. You know, it's not my favorite course. We were unanimous that it was our favorite.

I don't, I don't get it. I mean, we've been the architects at Kingston Heath for 20 years. I love that, I love playing there. It's a terrific course, but anyone who thinks it's a better course in Rome, I mean, really, I mean, you know you know it kicks in these Greatness is the sum of its parts. I think you wouldn't say that There are many great holes at Kingston. They throw a whole bunch of

really good holes a couple of great ones, but You know it's strength is how the whole thing comes together great bunkers great vegetation Not a not a weak hole on the place. You know, interesting golf, subtle golf, beautiful greens, the whole thing is just perfect. But Royal Melbourne's got, you know, two, three, four, five, six, seven, ten, eleven, twelve, sixteen, seventeen. I mean, there's like, there's 13 holes in it like, wow. Yeah. And there's no course in Australia that comes close to that. And probably, probably, Bamboo Goo and Cape Wickham get the closer, I know, and there's no course in Australia that comes close to that and probably probably Bamboo and Cape Wickham get the closer I mean I played Cape Wickham but I've been there they probably get Closest to Royal Melbourne in terms of how many great holes they've got the scenery adding

Yeah, I've seen stuff, but you know King's Nesit King's Nesit doesn't have the ocean. It doesn't have the Grand as a Royal Melbourne. It's just you know, it's just got a whole bunch of really good holes and that's what Zach Zach said after a trip to he said like, we got to play Royal last. It felt like the sum, the best parts of all the other courses we played in one place, just on a bigger scale. Yeah. Like we love to hear them at Metro, the bunkers that are cutting with the greens. They do that at Melbourne, but it's, it's more space. There's more space to miss.

And, you know, it's just, I mean, it land, the land of the Sambo, isn't very good. The only really great land on the Sambo, it's Royal Melbourne, and not the far paddock on the East Coast, but the bulk of Royal Melbourne, especially the main paddock, the back-nautonic Victoria, and Peninshaw. I'm not sure if you've got to Peninshaw, but Peninshaw has got some great land. We're kind of in the process of rebuilding both of those courses. They're going to be really good, I think. But, you know, this was a flat farm.

This was the flatest golf course in the world. It was just flat out of the hole in this place. You know, Yarra, you know, tiny site, narrow, calm, off and high and narrow, narrow sort of up and down sites. We really, there was no running decision to make. It was just going up and down with two holes at either end. Right. You know, Kingston East got a little underlotion, but not the, you know, Woodlands is arguably

one of the more interesting sites really, but it's not, it's great soil and I want to say great vegetation, but it's not even that. But, you know, they built beautiful holes, understood strategy, and they built beautiful greens and great bunkers, but it wasn't like it was great land. It's not like the hay fans in London or. Right, you know. Well, that's what kind of, again, from an amateur standpoint,

my understanding of golf course architecture design, it would, you know, I'm learning of this stuff, and I was blown away when I came here to Metro and played with Lucas and Sue. They showed us the book of the proposed changes in Metro, and it would take me two weeks to read that thing, and the level of detail and thought that went into every little nuance made me just kind of, as I'm walking around the golf course, start to notice like a tiny little hill,

there's reasoning behind that, and all the thought process that goes into that. So what is, you said you would have been a consulting architect, is that what you would call it with Kingston Heath for the last 20 years? So does the majority of your time with your design involve designing new courses or is it mostly consulting on existing courses? Mostly existing courses. Is that easier? Is it easier? No. Because you're dealing with emotion and madness in committees and you tell you're dealing with people who as as Mackenzie said, I've got an affection for the mud heap on which they play. It doesn't matter. I'm, ironically, almost the

better the course, the less, not the arguments, but the lesser the discussion about things you might want to do to it. But, yeah, dealing with members, but having said that, we nearly always get our way in the end. Because we make good arguments, I think we make good arguments and you prepared to sit out and make the arguments and, you know, you're not going to convince every member, but if you can convince the committee that, you know, and they back you, then, you know, and I think most of the work we've done's been pretty good and all of it, most of it's been pretty good.

What is, how much does, you know, in the time period that you've been consulting, let's say for King Sidith, 20 years you said, technology has changed a lot in that 20 years. How much of what changes you make to golf courses in the last few years has been related to changes in technology? Well, it's a big part of what, well, it's not the major part, but it's a big part of what, because we work at Lake Carolina, which where they play the Perth International, Grange West where they play the Women's Open, which is obviously not an issue in terms of the distance, but we play the

Lakes, we re-but the Lakes where they play the Australian Open, Royal Queen's Amateur is the main championship course in Brisbane, Victoria, Australian Open Course, you know, Kingston Heath, Australian Open Course, Peninsula is hoping to have the Australian Open in, you know, a few years. So, most of the clubs you work at in Australia are looking at holding big tournaments, and they do hold big tournaments. So they were, they were our, people said their members' courses, and they are members' courses, but they were built to be our equivalent of Shinnecock Hills and Kanoosti and San Dris and Pippel Beach.

And they were our championship courses. They were designed to test first class play. They were where important tournaments were going to be held. The State Amateurs, the Australian Amateur, Big Amateur events, the National Open, the State Open. That was where we held there. So they need to stay relevant for modern players. Unfortunately, I mean, I'd be perfectly happy if they didn't come here and, you know, basically, if I look at the ball, I mean, this was a long goal. I mean, we saw we're just watching it. It's great. No one paid the

last 12, the 1979 open. Off what's not now the back tee off the old back tee. I remember watching him pay the, oh, he smashed the drive in a five on the middle of the green. I mean, Lucas off that tee at a drive in a five on, he's literally flying the ball in the club outs. So then Greg was the longest here in the world at the time, really, he was certainly one of the longest three or four. So these courses are all in a race to keep themselves

relevant for the tournaments that they're holding and they're going to hold. So it's fine for all those great old clubs in America that don't care about pro golf and don't have pro golf tournaments, they can stay all working or swindly forest or just leave them as they are. They're fine for most of the members who play they're perfect. But in Australia our best courses are also the courses that hold, that were designed to test first class play. So I think you've got to keep them as relevant as you can for that.

But there comes a point where, you know, this would be my argument with Brandt or Chambley, is there comes a point where you can't just do what I guess to do and knock the fence over by Augusta Country Club or go out into the road or you can't just not buy houses. That's what I mean, it's not going to be. So the answer is not building new T-buses you can't just buy houses and you know what's going to be is the answer is not building new T buses. Not building new T's it's clearly it's you've got something's got to happen with the golf balls cast but it's not going to stop. I mean anyone of the things that's you know I remember when John Daly watching that PGA in 1991 and people were astounded half a year at the ball. That was beyond imagination. Half a year he was driving it past Keeney Knox out last day. The distance he was hitting

it was just routine now. If someone came out hitting the ball that far now, it would just be a normal hitter on the PJ tour. People think, well, surely Dustin Johnson and Bubba Watson, sure. Why aren't they going to be the John Daly in 30 years time? Those guys weren't that long because there'll be some, you know, Gary Plierce, there's some black guys going to come along who's six, four, eight, and he's going at the ball four and a half. And he will, and they will, I think. I think it's it, you know, Mackenzie, you know, he golf, like I was golf architect, or the spirit of standards, but there's no limit to science.

And depending on who thinks is a limit to it, it limit to it is crazy because clearly, you went from normal, I saw a normal in 9.74, I mean, he was a believably long in 9.74 to go from NAT to Dady to Johnson to Walser gonna stop now. You know, you think those guys are gonna, they put him down the moon, they can't make the golf ball go further. You know, I mean, and Turner may do a NAT last week

and some famous pros down up, down to Walser, Justin Johnson, I think it was probably you know new club three miles now more ball speed Well, maybe the ball, you know, it's the balls the solution. It's not they are it's not the It's not the it's a part of the problem, right? But it's the easiest solution. I think you know I'm in some people clearly disagree, but you know, it's just craziness in terms of what's happening I think I think the conversation on technology and distance can get lost in that, you know, some people's arguments I hear against it are saying, well, they can just grow rough taller and make players more punished for going wide.

It's not necessary. The point in hearing Jeff talk about it and just kind of saying, and when we were out at Melbourne last month, Zach and some of our guys played role-melbourne east, backties with hickory clubs and balls from 1983 that you provided. And hearing them talk about just the bunkers that came into play and the style of play that came into it. It's so much more fun. It's so much more fun. I didn't play it, but it's what I don't get is that it's actually so much more fun. I didn't play it, but it's what I don't get is that's actually so much more fun Where the debate gets completely sidetracked is people

Think it's about the scores How do we make the score? How do we keep the scores up? Well, clearly I could set this golf course up So 300 one you make 15 wide fair wasn't you grow the rough of sure? I you know I can make 300 I can make the best pose of all three hundred if I wanted to that's not about the scores It's about how the holes play. I mean, a hole at Alistair McKenzie saw as a long two-shot hole, which might be a par four, a par five, a long one shot, which might be a 10th at Royal Melbourne,

or a 6th at Royal Melbourne, one at par four, one at par three. Well, it might just be a good strong driving midline hole. Well, there is no good strong driving midline anymore. So it's how they saw their golf courses playing. And it's fine to, it's actually not fine to disrespect what those guys did. They were the grass architects, they left all these amazing treasures. And if they came back from a Kenzie came back now in

Tehrb Brown or Shambles head off, he would like a, or Peter Dawson or you know Wollaheuline or whoever's in control whoever's Mike Davis or whoever's in control of making this decision. Yeah. He would just come back and just tear them apart. Yeah. And they would you know I think he's almost the one guy you need to come back. Yeah clear it's not happening but if you're not respecting else Mackenzie who do do you, I mean, Bill causes the guy now really. And Bill's probably too nice a guy to get into the argument. You know, McKenzie was pretty belligerent, pretty tough, and pretty opinionated. Bill's not that. So,

and, you know, I can guess what Ben thinks about it, but they're too nice and gentle and not going to rock the boat. You know, so it would take someone like McKenzie to rock the boat and like, but he would come back and just, he would howl the world down. But he said, didn't you read my book? Now, I told you this was going to happen. I told you this was going to happen. I said, when I wrote my book, leave space behind the teas to move the teas back. We'll now wrap. Now the first two, it kinks these up against the clubhouse, the seven of teas up

against the road. You can't go back anymore. And maybe people in America don't care about, but I care about Kingston Heath or Royal Melbourne or their relevance, but I care about them. I care about courses there. I care about Sangadel, I care about, they're important courses that should be, Bobby Jones is great. We played with Hickory Shows yesterday,

Mike Cocking, Jim Jeff, we had our Christmas break up. So Mike's got that new, is it Louisville Golf, we make those new Hickory clubs and he played with a copy of Bobby Jones's driver. I mean golf was cool and how much fun is it to play with that? I mean really fun and he hit it, he hit it two hundred seventy yards, which tells me it's the ball. Right. You know, it's the balls are a big part of the deal. And that's what the playing with those clubs, they said, you know, their center hits, they went, I mean, they went way further than I thought your miships though. So to me, and I think there's such a difference

between at one, I think hitting the ball far is definitely a skill. I think it is. Absolutely. But the where where technology kind of ruins it or where the game gets ruined is it when you can use distance to get past all of the trouble off the tee to the point where there is no trouble. And to me, you know, if I'm playing a t-box that I know that I'm looking at all the bunkers and I can hit it over all of them and it's safer, I'm thinking either, okay, I'm not playing from the right tee or this kind of kind of feels like cheating. Now there's golf holes that, you holes that will let the longer hitters take

on certain risks to get in a certain area. If you're met with the proper punishment for mishits, then I think that's a fairness in design. But some of the lines Dustin Johnson takes, he just eliminates. Well, what was that playoff he played with Jordan Speeder, was that the first playoff? In New York. I think if you can hit it 20 yards further, you can get 90 yards closer to the green. And sometimes that kind of works in a hole, but if you just, you know, someone can get over the lake and someone can't, then.

But, you know, the mistake is to obsess about the scores totally. It's not about this, it's about how do the holes play? Well, you know, how do these guys want these holes to play? What did Don't Ross want at Pinehurst? You know, what do McKenzie want at Royal Melbourne and Augusta and Augusta? I mean, Augusta's a different case because they can just keep going back. And you just spend the money and just keep going back and back and back until it's

crazy, it's not silly. But, you know, the old course, I mean John Hagen, my friend writes about, they play the open on it, it's on four different golf courses. The second grind's on the Himalayan's pun and green. The ninth tea's on the new course, I think. The fourth tea's on the whatever course it is on the other side of Eden course And the 17th is out of bounds. You know, so he said it's you know people say well what put where do you go? what do you go back to and

you know Huggies point is we'd go back to when they when they went the point where they started going off the golf course on the All course, but what do you go back to when they, when they went, the point where they started going off the golf course on the, on the old course. But what do you go back to? I mean, I think early on that was the fight between the player and the equipment, the player, his equipment and the golf course. You look at those scores at Press Week and the early opens, I think I came in with the first time they broke three. And maybe not only in 20 was the first time in the All Course they broke 300 maybe, but whatever. The fight was clearly in favor of the golf course.

The golf course clearly had the upper hand. Not very good mowers, not very good fertilizers, greens that put it like fairways. Balls that didn't go very far, Hickory Shafted Clubs, and it was hard go very far. You know, hickory shafted clubs and you know, it was hard to get a match set even and the advantage was clearly in favour of the golf course. Steel shaft came in, McGregor's spalling, Wilson's start of making great clubs. The balance was pretty even. I'm not that I played in that ear obviously, but you know, from Nelson

and Sneed and Hogan and Middell Cough and those guys, through to Norman and Nickerson, Fowldale and Sevean with the ball out of ball and the wooden drives, the balance between... I don't remember anyone ever complaining the ball was going to fire in the 870s or 80s. The balance was pretty fair and golf courses got a little longer but not really. They changed the power of... I mean, it was, Keonga the other day, Gary Player, he talks about being 10 under after 10. And he was in the Australian Open the third day, but the second hole was a 466 yard par,

five and the 10th hole was a 455 yard par, five. So the par has changed, or they moved, in Keonga's case, they moved the greens back, but, you know, the balance was pretty right for a long time. And then it just went, the big birth that came in, then the grades big birth, then the Provee. And it's now, the golf courses are utterly without defense. They're utterly helpless in the face of, so the balance has gone from being in favour

of the course, the golf course in inververtecum is being utterly helpless. Unless you just go into the US and just grow long grass all over it. Then you go and read McKenzie's book and how those guys thought golf should be playing and start making it. No, it's not my golfers. Golfers, you know, to McKenzie, I think it was all guster, synanders, and wrong-album. Wide fairways, no long grass. Figure out for yourself where to go. And the defense was, there was a balance between the ball and the clubs and the course and

the player. And it was the wind and the greens were firm and yet to figure it out. Isn't, is, is, you know, I look at it and I played a lot of golf in the UK. I've played here and to me, the main difference is you just, you don't have that type of turf in soil all over, like say in the States. And the States has kind of the root of a lot of problems, right? The main difference is you just, you don't have that type of turf and soil all over, like say in the States. And the States has kind of the root of a lot of problems, right? But...

Well America's got the worst climate in the world for everything. A horrible climate, powerful and sudden California. So that's the big part of the problem. Yeah, it's our problem. Well, I was just gonna say that so much goes back to, if you get a course playing fast and firm,

it becomes the ultimate test of your ability to control the golf ball, whereas PGA Tour Golf these days is mostly fly it to this part of the fairway. So land the ball in one place so it finishes another which is the which was Thompson's argument about why he didn't like golf in America because he said it was like the difference between baseball and cricket. Right. And cricket the ball bounces.

Yeah. And baseball I've never played baseball but I'm sure it swallows around the air, but you know the art of Landing a ball Hitting the ball with the right force and the right trajectory Landing at 40 yards sort of a green having it bounce on is that's what he thought got for us Right, and that's the funnest call us way to play and the only place to find that in Australia really is bumbleable and But you find that all over the UK. You've got to any of those courses by the sea and inevitably is it went inland and it went to America.

It was going to be soft and it's what the climate is. It's going to be hard to. So it became a game of what you did through the air. So how do you challenge today's mod? Let's say the golf ball doesn't change equipment, doesn't change. How would you suggest golf courses set up to try to challenge the top players? Or is the way it's there? Well, it depends on the weather. Sure.

If you're lucky enough to be at by the coast and way, band and oceanic alcohol and national of service point of work, seminales, I mean, you can realize somewhat on the wind. But how do you, what do you do when you build a 520 yard power for in Dustin Johnson's driving nine on and all the strategy you build into it,

the green software doesn't matter. So can you get the green's firm enough and can you get it back? And then you go to, I didn't go to Aaron Hills, but the golf course looked pretty good to me and it got the golf course in like it got Adley ripped apart, criticized by the critics who think the US Open should be what was it?

Marion went over just know if I was in high grass and there was no wind and they shoot what do you shoot 15 out of 12 or 15? 16 I think that was not really it's not really a soap and but you know that to me look like I mean I've been there But I've been to sandals which is you know you could tell the US open a sandals and don't Decreasize that golf course, but if there was no wind then someone's gonna shoot 50 right? But if the wind doesn't blow in the open championship, no one says anything Yeah, yeah, you know, I've played the open it. I've played that open it Felt at one in 1990. I mean, 1990 under power. I mean, it was the easiest four days ever But no one it was it was you know daily comes back in five years later and shoots five under power, you know, when he beat rocker and so it was just a completely different week.

It was windy and tough and it's, but it would go back to what happened in 2015 where they set it up pretty tough. They shaved the grease pretty much and the wind blew and I can't play. I couldn't play. So you can't set up a golf course to be extremely hard when there's no wind. Some of these wind based courses like Aaron Hills. I thought the criticism was unfair. Yeah. If there's no wind, win. But clearly you need to build, if it's a windy place, you can't be building 30-hour wide fairways, isn't it, Bumble or you had to make the fairways a hundred yards wide, because if they're not, you can't play the golf course.

And the crosswinds, yeah, I mean, some of them. The courses make. So any place that's by the sea has got to, you have to have width. You can't just, you know, you look at what the fast that opened it kind of osu descended into in 99, 9 when you know 7 over par makes to play off and there was a miserable week of good places hacking the blood along grass. That's not what kind of this should be about. What do you think Alistair McKenzie would say if he saw modern day Augusta National? How different is it from the course that he doesn't even desire? He would recognize the routing. He wouldn't recognize the order of the holes because obviously the front number is back

nine. You know, he would probably like the 10th hole and I think he would shake his head with the trees on the right of the 11th hole because what are these trees here for? If you wanted to play at it to the extreme side of this fairway, I gave you room to play and now you can't play at all. So you lost that element of it. I think you would make a 16, it looks like a windmill hole to me that one. I think you would love to look at the bunkers. I think you would say, well this is not what I was government to be this pristine and this perfect. I think you would like that

way. They've kept most of the greens. They were pretty cool to fence, 14 and the greens that if you built them now you get slaughtered for it, 15 and five and some of those. But I think he would say, didn't you read my book about golf pros? Who put this bunker on the right of the second eye? Gene Sarasna. What did Gene Sarasna know about golf courses?? Was he a golf course at the time? You know, it looks like, you know, if McKenzie had wanted a bunker, he would have put one there, I think. You know, Nickless put the bunkers there left for the third hole.

I mean, yeah, maybe they were on that. I've never played the golf course. I walked around at a bunch, but, you know, I think he would look at some stuff and, you know, it's, I think that he did a pretty damn good job. You know, Jeff thinks that the best one of the best sets of greens in golf. And they certainly had great defense of that golf course, but he would not recognize how the course played in terms of how long it is now.

But you know, I think he would, I think he would have preferred that rugged kind of more natural look. I mean, but you know, it's, it's pristine. Perfect. And it's what it isn't. If people talk about your effect of Augusta, in terms of it being negative. The thing that amazes me about American Goffers,

Augusta has no influence over American Goffers. Zero, because you've got every PJ tour course and there's four cuts of rough and all the greens and narrow families. And why more people following what Augusta? I mean, everyone in Australia basically follows what you know certainly we have is Well do you know we have a pretty basic rule in the office is whatever you know Whatever all mom do try and do that. Mm-hmm. You know wide fairways and no no no cut

You know it's short grass or it's wild rough right use the short grass step cuts of rough in this perfect You know this crazy so you know use the short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts.

Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts.

Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts.

Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short cuts. Short's the whole point of the place. You know, if you miss a green, you know, you know, go to Royal Melbourne, you know, one whole, one sort of hole that, one type of hole that's gotten harder at the short path, forcing Melbourne, because when we were kids, they were all just 10 or Royal Melbourne,

apart from Sevy, who drove the green, was just a two-ounce, the right, and we're on the green, and 15 of it, Tori was a three-on-an-a-weogen. But now for the guys, the guys can drive, they're much more dangerous now. Yeah, I mean, because they can drive, they're way more dangerous now. But that's an example of, so that's the irony is the holes that are even better than they were when they built them and they're more dangerous than they create more bogus and double bogus

of the short holes, the short path force, us Because they're because they're tempting and they're down and you know you're tempted because you can get on now And you don't don't fall into the trap. Right. Yeah, that's a 15th of at a Victoria's a great example Right, hold that the short grass use the short grass to punish you So if you go long left on 15 like I had to play a 70 yard shot back into that green Yeah, because it just kicked down and rolled and rolled and rolled and that's kind of what Augusta used to be like the short grass. If you're offline, the ball took on going to stop it and there's nothing there to stop it. So it's going to go and go. And that the reason why I asked that is just

reading books about the building of the masters and McKenzie's emphasis on angles and wide fairways and letting players choose their route to the green. That's pretty much gone at Augusta and that was kind of the spirit of the entire place. I think he would, I don't think he'd like seventh all very much. So you know, not a lot of people do. Seven and eleven are the two most drastic changes in the last 20 years. And it's... Yeah, and I've done that.

He would like the trades left of 15, I think. Now, I'll trade the kind of funky. Yeah, but probably, you know, 15 is a whole that's, you know, was targeting ways to it. Yeah, it's sandwich. It's sandwiching. 97. And now it's kind of, I don't know what Dustin Johnson to have, but I can't imagine he's seen very much club in there,

seven or something, I don't know what it is. It's a pen, it depends on the wind of course there. You know, you look at those, you know, Curtis Stranger, he lost that master's when he hit the five in the water, and Seville hit that great three on it, and what, some of what's in it, couples hitting great long-winds into, you know, Nickless into 13.

When that was when it was cool, that was when the master masses was really cool. Of course, it's got a cool format, but that was when 13 was great, was when the tea was on their property, in the Logaster Country of Property, and the best presentable, three-horns in there.

Yeah, that was when, you know, it's not, it's no interest if it's a drive in a seven-haw. What do you think, what do you think of realistic, I feel like there's a lot of momentum right now for some kind of change in technology, No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not.

It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not.

It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. I mean, I assume they've made balls that will go 20 hours less, 30 hours less, whatever. But to me, it's like, let's go back and wreck, because that's the easiest thing to wreck

it. You're not going to go and take a massive head, a tailor-made drive. I mean, I would, if you could, I would absolutely do that. And go back to that beautiful, tight list driver that Tiger used in the 2, 99, that was a sensible size car. That was a great looking car. I thought, beautiful club. But given that it's going to be hard to take a $400 drive

out of the bag of every, you know, go back and fix the ball up. You know, go and regulate the ball. And people say, well, you can't bifurcate the game. Mostly Americans who don't even know, probably, or certainly have forgotten that the game was bifurcated for 60 years. We all played this, we grew up playing the 1.62 inch ball. And when I in 1997, 1977 thought I might be, it wanted to be a golf pro, I decided that I was never going to get another small ball again,

and I switched to playing the big ball. And everyone said you're completely crazy, you give up 25 yards. Well, I won the Australian Amherit in 9.70. I was the only guy in the field using a big ball Really, I thought well if I'm gonna be a pro I'm gonna have to let it play with his golf ball I'm not familiar with this era of yeah of two balls and play it once. Yeah, so so the so Other guys started to use the big ball. You know, we have you know, Grady and Petricein. Yeah, if we're gonna be golf boys We have to play the big ball so Peter Thompson would talk about you know, we have, you know, a gradian, a petissene, yeah. If we're going to be golfers, we have to play the big balls. So, Peter Thompson would talk about, you know, players would come out from America. David Graham would come out and Thompson say, not sure why he's using the big balls. He's giving up 25 yards.

I don't understand it. So, we had bifurcated tournaments, not the, but, but we had players using both size balls because obviously the big ball was always legal. Just know whenever to play with it because I would suppose the ball went 25 yards shorter. So then the two men, the British open man dated the big ball in 74, the two here I think in 78 did the, and then Amateur Tourment started too. So after I turned pro and there's a little window for a couple of years where the big Amateur Tourment said you have to put the big ball. So if you wanted to play in the state amateur, you play with the bit that Australian amateur, you put the big ball. So

that happened in, you know, and then in I think in 984, when, with a stroke of a pen, America decided that, well the world, America essentially dictated that the world was going to play with, well the people around the game reason that this was made no sense. We're going to have a uniform ball which made perfect sense and it was a great decision. But America with a stroke of a pen took 25 yards off, every golfer that wasn't Canadian or Mexican or Asian-Ten, or South American or from the United States. They took 25 yards off every prime of the world overnight. And I don't remember anyone complaining about it. You threatened to take 25 yards off America's golfers.

And you can't take 24. You did it to the rest of the world. You just didn't know about it. Because it wasn't news in America. And no one complained about it. The world didn't cave in. People just took the people out and they played golf and their scores didn't. And it was 25 yards in theory, and practice didn't make that much difference. And it's a sidetrack. But from 74 when they manned out the big ball in the open, within five years, seven had won the open.

And that change spawned that great era of European players. And I'm convinced that never would have happened if they'd stuck with a small ball. Because it was hard to play. The big ball was hard to play with. Because they were basically made in America. So they were made for no wind. And you try and play a two-o'-o'-o'-o'-o'-o'-o'-o'-o'-o'-o'-o'o-o'o-o'o-o-o'o-o-o'o-o-o-o-o-o'o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o a low-trash ball, D-D-H made a great winball. But there was no coincidence that when five years of the big ball being mandated in the open, my generation of player out, which was, you know, all the guys might, fell down, and laying out, we were all the same age. They switched to the big ball and within 10 years old Don Nading or Gustaf, they were the best bars in the world. And that would never

have happened if that's stuck with the 1.6 doing more. Anyway, that's kind of... No, no, that's a whole wide measure question. That's good precedent to say, like there can be changes made, but I mean, is it realistic that Augusta would be the first tournament to do a different ball?

Well, that's obvious, but they're not gonna do it. You don't think so. Well, I should, but other than that, we'll... Yeah. Players seem open to it. Players seem more open than we would. Well, of course they're open, because they're not going to do it. You don't think so. Well, I should, but I don't know that will. Yeah. Players seem open to it. Players seem more open. Of course they're not going to not. If it was the Atlanta class, they just not going to turn out.

But if it's a gas stop, you know, the boss of Tartus can't say, you to, to, he's, I know, he's a bit of Tartus best player. I don't know. Keep track of who plays which one's former, but Rory is a Rory Pat Tartus. He's Taylor Mead now. I don't know. But whoever. Yeah. Taylor made it now. I don't know, but whoever. Yeah, Jeff Ogleby.

You can't play the Masters because, you know, they've got that silly ball. We're banning all Tartus players from playing the Masters. Good luck with that. That's not happening. I just don't buy that, and I know that equipment companies, especially titles are especially resistant against changing the ball. I don't buy that, you know, consumers can't figure out what ball is still best for them. Yeah, the ball. I don't buy that consumers can't figure out

what ball is still best for them. Yeah, the ball won't change for us. Why are they gonna sell, I don't get what the argument is. And again, Brandon or Shanley this morning on Twitter and I went on a best brand look because he said, I like him, I worked with Frank, one of my best mates and I think he's good at what he does.

But I've completely disagreed on these stands that the ball's okay. Right. I forgot what I was gonna say. That's right, he said, who's've completely disagree with him on the stance that the ball's okay. Right. I forgot what I was going to say. That's right. He said, who's going to pay for this? So I've said, I've said, who paid spalling, slashing, done-lop, uni-roll, pen-fold, bridge stone, who paid them to throw their small ball machines away overnight.

They're all, you know, who commenced that of those guys? And seriously, you know, who comes out of those guys? And seriously, you know, and that's, and Jeff's comment to it, the Australian Open was just, you know, either like in baseball back in the States, you play, professional baseball, they play wooden bats, it's either that or change all of the stadiums. And golf, we've decided to change the stadiums. We've decided to change the stadiums. And stadiums aren't architecture. It's just a round patch of dirt, sure. These are great pieces of architecture built by the greatest architects who ever lived. If they came back, they wouldn't recognize that.

As much as McKenzie might recognize the way I guess that looks, he certainly wouldn't recognize how it played. What's this 13th-old driver's 7? I want to put a bubbly wedge out. It certainly wouldn't recognize how played. What's this 30th of a drive at 7th? Put a bugger and wedge it. If he has got any line on this, what's that about? Well, we've got way down on architecture and technology.

I wanted to talk to you some about your career, but don't want to take too much of your time. But what would you say you're most known for of all of your playing games in your career? Me. Yeah, well, the guy fell on his bowl. That's it. Yeah. You've got to get your Wikipedia page changed,

because it's like the third paragraph is that, so I've always seen the gift and the image of you, the people that were talking about, you've probably seen it before, and that you thought you made a putt. No, no, no, I knew I'd left it short. Okay. I'm doing what that guy was doing on your shirt there.

The look. Yeah, it was a part, I knew it was always going to be short, because I spent my whole career living putts half an inch short. Okay. I'm doing what that guy was doing on your shirt there. The look. Yeah. It was, I knew it was always going to be short because I spent my whole career living parts half an inch short. And I kind of gave it to, let Liam out, let go of that, get it. And I'll just let go of the clean. I mean, you let go of it. And you got to grab it again. Yeah. And I remember it going out of my, not my hand, but my fingers. I wasn't, I went to grab it and I missed it. And this thought flashed through my mind, that's going to fall on the ball. And so I went after it and just like, God, no, now I'm lying on the ground going, what the heck happened there? I was like, so you

the club hit the ball. The club hit the ball. I hit the ball. So how many, what was the total? Well, I thought I was playing with Gary Evans who and Terry Price two friends of mine Price he said Get off my you're lying on my line when you get off my line Joking so they both three-patterned made five so I slid I slid the honor on the next tea What you got the penalty for hitting the ball with the club in motion No, the penalty was the rules guy came out and he said, what happened? He said, was the ball at rest, I said, the ball is at rest and you moved it.

He said, was one shot for moving a ball at rest. The irony with the new rules coming in is that won't be a penalty at all, which is like, you know, if you want to do argue against that rule change, put that video up and say, so you don't think this should be a penalty, but this has to be a penalty, surely. So anyway, it was a one-shot penalty for the moving of ball at rest, so it was 20 years ago this year. And was there a penalty for it in the ball hit you after that? So I thought two of you, two of you hitting me, two of you hitting the club and one for the ball, but I thought it might have been five, but it was only one.

How many times have you had to retell that story over the years? Well, it was. It was the first day. It was the 14th of New South Wales, and we'd set off the tent. So it was only the fourth or fifth of what we played. And the guy in the TV tower was just testing the equipment.

He wasn't on TV live at all. It was not on TV at all. He was just testing the equipment. He wasn't on TV live at all. It wasn't on TV at all. He was just testing the cameras to make sure the camera was working. And he just happened to be filming it. So anyway, you're lucky that's captured. Yeah. So you spent most of the 80s and 90s playing

on the European tour. What was some of your biggest idols out there at that time? Wow, it's heavy, it was. And for what reasons? It was everyone's own. I'm think if you if you spoke to Feldom and Langer now and Nick Price And those go they would say would tell you the same thing. I was great as they were Sevi was the man. He was just You know, I first watched him play it. I was gonna caddy for him. It's one of the great regrets of my Life is an unexamined University that on the Wednesday was the Wednesday the prime

Ed Barna was Sevi's manager and a friend of mine out here Jimmy Carter was Ed's kind of agent in Australia. He'd organized for me to Katy for Sevis and I said I rang him a cellar car I've got an exam on Wednesday. I can't do it. So I watched him play Pretty much every hot rule Melbourne in 978. It was like, it was captivated by it. I thought it was the most amazing player to watch, play golf. Not only the shots he hit, but just how he was. I mean, I played with Jeff there, they took it. He probably said he right at the end of his career, he said he couldn't play at all.

But he said he'd walk into the club, that's where the blue cashman jumped around his shoulders, he was still the guy, he was still the... He was the most... Charisma's a really overused word, charismatic, a really overused word, and there aren't many people who are very charismatic. But he was the... I was fascinated by it. Whenever he was anywhere around where I was, I was looking at what it was just, he was

just amazing, got a watch I mean I think and a watch him play Golf into walk and to pull the club out of the bag and to it was a it was five hours of full-on Sevy love this and I was he fascinated me. Did you play with him? Yeah, I played yeah, yeah, I put them quite a bit and I Was a different playing with him then yeah, somebody else. Yeah, and he hit great shots. I mean, he hit, I remember, you know, a whole port of the hero and Madrid, the uphill, the seventh, the uphill dog leg left par four, Royal Piantry is down the left. I mean, you know, we did a three, wouldn't hit it out and hook it around the corner, hook it up. You know, we were actually hitting the right shot. We were kind of hitting a shot that was going the way the hole was going. We're going out to watch him play and he might have been

a driver, it was probably that black Tony Pena III, when he just hit this hard, ripped down the left trees, it just cut back over, you know, if it had gone straight, it was in the trees right out of bounds. And he just down the left over the bat and just cut it back into the fairway. And he would do it for, look like he was just doing it for fun because he could, you know, you guys hit a little drop there but I'm gonna try this shot. Yeah and the 11th hole there put, I mean Greg Turin, I went out watching play the last 36 holes, we played early on the weekend, both days and he was in the last group and we went and most watched him play and as a tiny little

ledge at the back of the 11th Green at a hero, a big bank on the right. Easy, it's an easy two-eyed shot to get the ball on the green. You're sitting at the bank and kick it down. How Clark who was, you know, everyone who played in Europe would tell he was one of the best ball strikers in Europe and in the 80s. He had this kind of, you know, ripping the two-on, hit the bank and kicked down onto the green, you know, sort of 40-feet. Sure, and there's a grand piano in the room here. The back of the grain looks like the top of the grampeon. It's a tiny kind of section up in the back of this grain. And Sevy just got there with a two-on-a-flue at there and stopped it, just thought. And it's almost like he, he and Howard Clark were, Sevy was always

going to win. He was one or two ahead. But it was almost like, if you have a Clark, he just, I know you're going to win because you're better than me. You know, I can't do that. And you can, it was almost like he would just hit that shot and go on better than you. And I'm going to beat you because I'm better than you. It sounds like the effect that Tiger had on it. And it would just hit. It was almost like he did it for fun because he was just bored playing.

And people said he wasn't a great driver. I mean, he was, I thought he was a great driver because he could, I mean, anyone, not anyone but, yeah, not anyone, not, not, not, clearly not anyone but, hey, I learned in Grand Mars you were two great drivers, to the ball up, and a little cutter, a little draw, I, you know, burnt it through the wind but they were just, they were just, they could zerox out shots like, like a machine making bottle tops, one after the other but they could never do what Sevy could do and Sevy could have done that You know if you said to Sevy at 19 Sevy I want you to go and learn to hit the ball turn in 70 hours and dead straight

He could have done that and easily could have done with a two-on But he would hit you know cuts and draws and lows and highs and joy to some off the map But that was what that was that was part of the deal with what he was doing. But he didn't fear that. No, because he was playing golf and he knew we could get out of it. That's fun. I can thread the one through the gap.

I can go over that tree or through that gap. So anyone who watched him play will tell you that every single, Jeff, even when he was, even when he was seven, was no good anymore. He would still hit one shot that would just go, what was that? You know, and when he was great, he would do that. It was like, I was like Royal Melbourne itself.

You know, it was like 13 great holes. It was like Seville would hit 10 or 12 shots of a light. My God, I mean, that was, who does that? You know, I don't, 10 at Royal Melbourne. I remember he got in the tee and he kinda, he just, you know, he played the crowd like was baller-hagen again, really born really. And, you know, he looked at the iron and looked at the ice, Balkan, you know, he'd get your driver out of your week-bastard, you know, pull the driver every day and just smashed it straight

to that ground. Up in that sand, sort of the greeners blew it out of there and blew it out to three feet every day, he made three birdies in a power and it was like just that one whalers worth was seeing in play. And everyone I think who played in Europe in his time would tell you the same stories and have the same reverence for how great he was at playing golf. What did you play much with Monty? A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The polarizing difference this as far as charisma. The Monty was funny. Yeah. I have a funny story. We played the last round of the 1990 open at St Andrews

together. We're doing nothing in the tour. We're running 45th or something. And what we're going down the fifth hole and he started bitching about the pins. And there's a joke in Australia about anyone who plays slowly. You know, it starts lining out parts and what do you think it is? The last round of the bridge open. And Monty starts bitching about the pins. I said Monty, it is the last round of the bridge open. And he said, yeah, good point. But yeah yeah, Monty was funny when Monty came out and friend of mine played with him and was a torment in Portugal, a porto, a links course in Portugal. I think Stephen Richardson won and Monty, this guy was Chris Murdy, friend of mine.

He was like, come in bloody Monty, he can't let it, but he slapped it here and he slapped it there and hit this shitty tour and that, round up to four feet and he had this low skanky drive and he shot 66 or something. It took a long time, I mean anyone who saw Langer play or Sevy or was he, you watch him play for 10 minutes and you knew they could play, they were great, they could see they were different and better. It took the tour a long time to recognize that what didn't look very good was actually really good with Monty. Because his swing didn't look any good, really floppy in. I remember bringing the range one to the lead better. I said, what would you do with that swing? He

said, guys, where would you start? And that would have been, you know, if Monty had gone to the lead better and lead better with the run the book and he never would have heard of him. And he was strong enough to stick with what he knew. And the tour took a lot of convincing that Monty was any good, but once they watched and they looked and they saw that he just kept doing it over and over, you know, wow, this guy's really good.

I mean, it was a crazy never won America. I mean, partly it was because he would, you know, he would chase $100,000 of our appearance, Mount E. Fee in America that week before the US Open and get to the US Open and like what do you why are you playing in Hamburg last week? What are you doing? You know I don't think he ever gave himself his best shot at winning in America but he was great. He was fantastic player. I feel like everyone's just got a favorite Monty story. Everyone's got a Monty story. mean, does he, when you play with him, is it clear that he could

how much he fears from the crowd? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he'd be such a dick, you know. He could play. Is he pretty rude to the fans? Pretty frequently? I would bitch about, yeah. How clock was worse, but we played in Austria-Warnier where the cowbells were, the cows were the big bells ran in it, and he would just drown the clock in sign because he was a a necklace, of course, you know, in the middle of the farm and just that assaults back and these bells were ringing incessantly and yeah, I'm, clocky was just gone, ballistic, gone player, I can't play it, these cowbells never stop. Do you ever get used to, I'll let you have you on this, do you ever get used to the, the flies

around here in the same I noticed them. I don't know. Because that's the only complaint I have about gov in the area. Australians don't even notice flaws anymore. That's interesting. I mean, people come down and start complaining about flaws I'm going what? Yeah.

We don't even notice them. Wow. That's a skill. That's a learn skill. It'll bite you. Yeah, I guess you kind of used to just be Australian salute. Yeah. Just blew them away. I mean, I've'm playing in Perth when you were we've yet to spray

Put Derek Ard which is a for on your ball. Mm-hmm. The flies would there was a plague and the Flight you get to the top of your swing and like three flies it'll out on your ball Which is kind of annoying but so you sprayed your ball which kind of stopped that but I'm never used fly spray I mean I know when you know it we just don't even. I said, yeah, I gotta increase my toughness that means. But Mike, thanks so much for your time, man. This was a lot of fun. This was very helpful. Hopefully, have we didn't ramble on on it?

No, that was perfect. That was my first sense. That's perfect. This is the exact stuff that people eat up. Okay, I appreciate your time. Thanks Chris. All right, cheers. Thanks.

All right, guys, that's gonna do it for 2017 for the podcast. I wanna send a few thank yous out. First of all to all of you guys that have listened to this podcast almost religiously. We sincerely appreciate you guys downloading, telling a friend, a lot of people ask what they can do to support. I always tell people, just tell a friend, you'd be surprised how often I meet people that say I just discovered your podcast a month ago and I'm, you know, I'm six months back in the archives and stuff So all we can ask of you guys is to keep helping us spread the word

Of course, we are a totally independent organization that is doing our best to try to give you guys the content Is real as we possibly can so we couldn't do it without the support of all of our listeners So thank you everyone for giving us just insane growth in the last year that it's allowed us to do a lot of different things and also want to give a special thanks to the guys at Calaway that took a chance on us this year and most definitely did not have to. And it's been a great relationship

and that's a relationship that's going to continue forward into the next year. And we're really looking forward to the content we're going to produce together and all of the resources they've put behind helping make us successful and it's been a great relationship and we're especially thankful to them. If you guys could also, I would highly recommend there's a lot of work went into the Pro Shop this year. Neil really took ownership of that and we have a lot of new stuff,

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So that's going to pretty much wrap it for the year. Again, thank you to all of you that have given feedback, have listened and helped spread the word. This has been so much fun and it's given us the opportunity to bring it to you guys in a bigger and better way next year. Of course, we are a lot more than a podcast. We are very active on social media, so make sure you guys are following us on Twitter, Instagram, all that stuff. And most importantly, probably for the next year We're gonna be doing a lot more video stuff. So

We got a couple a couple really really good things that are gonna be coming early in the year I highly encourage you to please subscribe to our YouTube channel Because it's gonna be start cranking out here pretty soon In a frequent way it's gonna be I'm really excited for what we have coming I promise you guys we're working really hard to bring it to you So without any further brand link It's going to be, I'm really excited for what we have come and I promise you guys we're working really hard to bring it to you. So without any further brand link, thanks again for all the downloads and all the listens this year, all the feedback and helping make this show is fun to produce as hopefully as

it was to listen to. So thank you guys and we'll see you again in 2018. Cheers. I'm going to give it a right club. Be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most.

Better than most. Expect anything different. Expect anything different.