No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 119: Ben Walter

Episode Date: February 14, 2018

Ben Walter joins to talk about his career as an agent, what it’s like to represent Jason Dufner, how deals get done, how sponsorship works, and a lot more. Ben talks about how he got... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 119: Ben Walter appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. an agent or manager on the tour to hear what life is like. As soon as I heard that, there was only one guy I could turn to the president and owner and founder of the Walter, what's the official name of the agency, sorry? Walter Sports Advisor.

Walter Sports Advisory, that's Ben Walter himself, an old buddy from college. We're here to relay a few stories and hear about life on the road. Ben, how we doing? I'm well, thanks for having me. I'm very intrigued by what kind of stories are going to come up with from the past. I don't know if they'll involve the church street bar or the with-ro basketball courts. I'm excited to hear what you have in store for me.

We do know each other from Miami University, my lasting image of you. So you played, how many years did you play football at Miami? Couple years, and I kind of classified as a cup of coffee. OK. But my lasting memory of you is you, so at Miami, the other players that no longer play for the football team gathered on one flag football team called the Hasbens. I'm not sure you were fully aware that you were no longer play for the football team gathered on one flag football team called the Hasbins. I'm not sure you were fully aware that you were no longer playing for Miami

University. If I remember right, you were arm banded up from basically from head to toe. I think there was eye black involved. Is that sound right? There could have been. I can't confirm nor deny. Let's just say you took Flagler ball very very seriously in college and that's the last to give a jayou you call from college but going back to the 2010 US Open at Pebble Beach I'm walking around with my dad. I hang on though at at some point we all become we all become husbands it's just a matter of of when we realize it and and when you're still in college and you still have the competitive juices flowing, you know, what, sometimes you just gotta, you gotta embrace the role, Sally. Got to embrace it.

I was hoping, I was trying to slide past it so you wouldn't roast me for anything from the college days. No, no, no, I don't think there's anything. I don't think there's anything too bad, man. I just, uh, a great time playing a lot of basketball together. Uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, hitting up the old, uh, the old watering holes there in Oxford, man, I got a lot of really, really good memories from there. Well, I wasn't expecting our paths to cross, necessarily you and I weren't like, really close friends in college

and we didn't stay in touch after you graduated your head I did. Uh, and we ran into each other at the 2010 US Open at Pebble Beach. I'm walking around with my dad and I see you like all dressed up looking at me like be well like what are you doing here so what were you doing at the 2010 US Open at Pebble Beach? Yeah that was man that was coming up 2019 they're gonna hope to be hosting the US Open again. That was, I think my, I started in 2008, so 890, I was really in my third year at IMG. And I had started working there on a couple of accounts

that brought me in to support some of their larger accounts and also tasked me with building my own portfolio clients and bringing in some clients that we thought fit fit within IMG. And at the time, I think I saw you. I was with, I think, I was with our old managing director, Guy Kinnings, kind of strolling down the fairways there. And I bumped into you and I think there was one other person with you, I thought. It was my dad and our family friend, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so I was out there watching the first client that I ever signed and that was was Jason Duffner.

So he and I he and I got together at the end of 2008 and off we went from there. So I was watching him play a few holes when I bumped into you out there. So I remember I wasn't nearly as invested in the golf game at that time as I am now. And I remember you saying, yeah, I'm representing this guy, Jason Duffner. And I look over and I see this guy with his waggle and the belly. And I'm like, oh, good, good for you, man. That sounds great. I wasn't fully invested in the scene. Little we know a year later he's playing in a playoff at the PGA championship.

But what is, what was your route to be joining IMG? How did you get set up with those guys? Did you know you always wanted to be an agent or how does that route work? Yeah, and it's funny you say that because a year later he's playing in a playoff and, you know, a year after that he's knocking down a couple wins and a year after that he's winning a PGA championship. It's kind of amazing you look back and you know and you hear it a lot and things go so fast and things went so well, so fast that you kind of think that was going to be the norm.

You kind of little did you know what that guy is doing in his career as he's beginning the prime of his career is just really remarkable. So I was really lucky to get started where I did, when I did. I think anybody in this industry, if they don't really classify themselves as someone who's had some really good luck, then they better take a hard look in the mirror.

So because we're all pretty lucky to be out there doing what we're doing. But yeah, I got started in 2008. I really, I mean, I guess the journey began, you know, 11-ish years before that. I was 11 years old and I was sick and tired of the $5 allowance my dad gave my brother and I for cutting the grass and doing chores around the house and I asked them if he would increase our allowance and he said no go get a job. So I said okay all right well what should we do? I think you should go caddy down the street. So from there we would ride our bikes to work every day and go caddy starting when we were 11 years old and we could barely lug one of those big leather golf bags around the golf course.

And Derek and I, my twin brother, ended up doing that for 10 summers. I got to know some really, really great people up at the country club on the East Side of Cleveland and a handful of them worked in the golf group. One of them, or a couple of them, were Mr. McCormick, the founder of IMG, his right-hand man.

So I got to know a guy who was pretty prominent within the golf group and catted for him on a really regular basis. And as I was getting toward the, you know, or started my senior year and middle of my senior year, I really started bugging him about a gig at IMG. I said, you know, well cut out for this business. I feel like, you know, I understand what it means to what it means to compete. And, you know, I was, in the meantime, I was finishing up my business degree at Miami. So, you know, I thought I could marry a couple of my passion points and off I would go and, you know, my professional career. So, that was kind of how it got started.

I banked hard enough. I interviewed, I went through the rounds there at IMG and then they hired me in February of 2008 to get started. And I went out and off I went working on a few of their key accounts, worked quite a bit for Vijay, quite a bit for Camilo. And then like I said, it was tasked with bringing in some other talent into the golf group. So you were one of a roundabout way of getting started, I guess. But like I said, I was lucky.

I knew the right people. I worked my, I worked in network and got a really good break. Well, and that's kind of goes back to, you know, the phrase of, it's not what you know, it's who you know, being really important, but I think that phrase can kind of get cheapened to being like, you know, you can be an idiot and as long as you know people, you'll get whatever you want versus like, you got to know people through a process of hard work. And people got to know your character and felt like they knew you to the point where they trusted you eventually with employment.

Is that how you would define it? Right exactly. I mean it's, you know, I spent a lot a lot of time up at that place and you know, my dad had kind of told me, he said, look, you know, if you do the right things up there, if you, if you, you know, kind of do as a caddy does really show up, keep up, shut up. You're going to meet a lot of really good people up there and you're going to earn people's respect. And at the end of the day, that's, that's really what happened. I mean, I'm really good friends with a lot of these people up there. And I'd join the club two or three years after I graduated from Miami. So yeah, exactly. It's, it's, you got to, you got to do the right things. You can't just, you can't just show up and, and know the right people.

You got to, you got to work in that work. So were you tasked specifically with going out and signing somebody like Jason Duffner, like, did you personally sign him? Or was he an already an IMG client that you moved over and started managing? Now he didn't have anybody at the time, which is so uncommon these days now out on tour. Everybody on the web.com tour these days now has representation. For better or worse, it's a really, really crowded industry. But at the end, I got to know Jason through my time with VJ, and he and I spent some time together at tenors, I'd go out and watch and play.

And I was working with another guy there at IMG, and we sat down and met with Jason at the end of 2008. It must have been ten degrees up on the west side of Cleveland at a courtyard marriott. We sat down, we had breakfast for about 45 minutes and brought them on board. It was the easiest, painless setting I've ever had in my career. And I had built some trust with him over time. But I mean, I think anybody who's honest with you is just sometimes you don't know what's going to happen.

You don't know if they're going to pan out or whether they're not. And some of these guys would be the first to tell you that. So off we went from there and grew the relationship with him to the point where I'm still working with him today, and we have a great relationship. So what was your official title when you were hired and kind of bridging that maybe a larger question, what is the difference between say an agent or a manager and what would you what do you call

yourself? Man, I've been called a lot of bad things actually. So client manager or agent, it's all, it's music to my ears. So I guess if you want to, if you want to describe, I guess, the difference in the golf world as to what an agent versus a client manager would be, I would classify an agent as a broker or deal maker. And I would classify an account, or excuse me, a client manager as an account operator, somebody who's going to handle the day-to-day activities on the account. So I think, you know, you'll see guys out there who have a, and you hear these guys in their interviews, now they talk about their teams, you know, you might have somebody who's a client manager who's, you know's on site from Tuesday to Saturday or

Tuesday to Sunday or Wednesday to Sunday, who's out there handling whatever that player needs them to handle. Some guys are going to be really low maintenance and some guys are going to be really high maintenance. It really all depends on the player in the account. That's why I would say it's a client manager. Then there's an agent, you're the deal maker, you're tasked with really increasing top line revenue on the account through sales. That might be endorsements, that might be appearances,

that might be licensing, for example. So with you out on your own now, we'll get to how that became the reality here soon. But what do you kind of fill both buckets at the moment? Which, for Jason? Yeah, I would say a jack of all trades. I guess that's, like you said, we'll get into it a little later.

That's the beauty of running my own business is that, I wear quite a few different hats. And that's what makes it really challenging. and that's what makes it really challenging, and that's what makes, every day, really exciting for me too. How quickly did you learn starting out that being an agent wasn't necessarily as glorious as you maybe had imagined?

You're as glorious. Where is a glorious? You may have some bad information. I really think it's turned out to be better than I had imagined. Because of what I had just described, I get pushed and challenged every day in every corner of my brain. Like I said, I function in a variety of roles. It's agency owner, operator account manager, account planner, marketer seller. So it's a really, really dynamic role.

I think where you may have been, I'm not going say, misled by folks, but I think people get very, very siloed in their roles, and that's where it may be, not as glorious as they wanted to be, and that they're doing a lot of groundwork to start out in the business. And look, you gotta do that. I draw the parallel with my days as a caddy.

There were days I wait three or four hours, and I didn't get out, and I'd go pick the back range of, you know, for another three hours and I got to give you just 20 bucks and off we went. But we were, Derek and I knew that we were paying our dues. And so maybe that's where at the start of it, you know, things aren't really great. You have an aggressive travel schedule. You're at the course from Dust till Dawn and it may not seem as glorious as you want to, but what really is at the start of things?

Take a look at these golfers, they go through so many ups and downs. Is everything really as glorious as it seems on Sunday when they're hoisting at trophy? Absolutely not. There's so much hard work and patience gets tested that goes into it. So, you know, I'm at a point now where I've put in some time and, you know, I think everybody who's successful has to put in, you know, a good chunk of time to get to where they want to be, you know, and where they're in a place where, you know, frankly, I never imagined myself as a business owner, but here I am, and I'm having a blast. Yeah, the more what I was going towards is,

I feel like the more time I spend in the industry, the more I see the non-glorious side of each job, right? So initially, when I would go to a tournament, see you walk inside the ropes, talk to Ernie Ls, talk to KJ Choi, it looks like just the chummyest, easiest job in the world, but you quickly learn, I love here in the story is just about all of the hard work that goes in behind the scenes and a lot of people don't see, and that goes for everyone in the world, but you quickly learn. I love hearing the stories just about all of the hard work that goes in behind the scenes

that a lot of people don't see, and that goes for everyone in the industry. I feel like if you don't work in sports, you look at any job that's in sports as the coolest thing in the world and easy, and it's not work when that's not the reality at all that there's a ton of work that goes into it. So how often are you traveling to events then? Yeah, I would say I go to 10 to 12 to events. When I'd launched last year in August, I get out pretty quickly because it was important

that I'd be out there scheduling meetings with the folks around golf and in the markets that we were heading to, you know, on behalf of Jason, because I wanted to get rolling and get some things done for him before the end of the year and get them off and running in 2018. So I worked a bit more, a bit more of an aggressive schedule at the end of 2018, but I think around a dozen events is a nice healthy, healthy number to do. And then in addition to that, I'm looking to grow my portfolio. So I'm attending amateur golf events to evaluate some younger talent.

So yeah, I mean, if you've kind of lived in that world, and if you're on a consulting project and you're getting up early every single Monday morning and you're heading out and you're coming a consulting project and you're getting up, you know, early every single Monday morning and you're heading out, you're coming back Thursday night. So it's not like under other jobs where it's travel intensive. It's the way of the world. Callaway Customs is back. And starting today on this Wednesday, you can personalize new Mac Daddy 4 wedges just like the TOUR Pros.

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working for a big organization like IMG and doing your own thing, how different is it? It's definitely different. I had a great run at IMG. Wonderful place with some extraordinary people, some people who work to shape, what golf is today. I would say when you're working in a large place, things, there's probably some things that you don't feel like are necessarily worthy of your time and may seem unimportant to you.

I don't have that clutter today that I may have had in the past. Like I said, I wear a lot of different hats and I get to decide what to do and I'm prioritizing each day what I need to get done for my clients. My days feel really efficient and really clean because I'm the one who's designed the strategy and the 12 to 24 to 36 months outlook for my business. I'm the one who's implementing the tactics and going out to execute every single day. So the autonomy, the autonomy is great and you feel like you're getting a lot out of your day because you really believe feel like you're getting a lot out of your day because you

really believe in what you're doing. It seems like things are trending more towards smaller shops like your own and some players typically maybe have one of their friends be their manager or rather than being with a large agency. Why do you think that is kind of trending that way and what is the appeal from the player perspective to kind of have representation like yourself with Jason? That's a good question. I feel like our business is a deeply personal business.

And you know, you kind of hear the old tagline, nothing personal just business. And I'm not saying that doesn't necessarily exist out there, but it's a deeply personal business. I mean, I've talked to to my clients every single day multiple times per day. And I think clients like that, they don't want to be in a model where it's volume oriented and

there's a lot of clients and you feel like your manager or your agent might have to perform a juggling act just to get through every single day because, you know, a lot of times you don't necessarily know what they're doing, you know, if you're not checking in on them every day, but I'm always texting, always talking with my clients if they have ideas or if I have ideas. There's a certain sense of trust that I think it's built pretty quickly because you're communicating so much and it only deepens over time. So I think players, whether that's in basketball or baseball or football or golf, they really

like that and they really value that You know some some guys might see The benefits of a really large agency and that they have a large number of resources at their at their disposal at their excuse me at their disposal and You know, that's what the pitch was at IMG You know, I would argue today and I think the market that being the players kind of reflects the thinking that you know You don't need a large global apparatus anymore. We got computers. We have phones heck we're Skyping right now You know everybody everybody can be reached and reach quickly if needed So how does it typically work when on the sponsorship side like our

Sponsors coming to you as the agent and approaching you about potentially sponsoring a player or is it typically your cold calling or kind of going through a rola dex trying to find people to sponsor your player. Man, I'd love to tell you that I'm picking up the phone all the time because I get asked I get asked that question. Oh, how do you do with the answer the phone? No, no, that's not that's not all I do. For some of the big guns out there, some of the biggest stars in the game today, yeah, I mean, their agents are fielding quite a few calls and

they're bidding a price. When I first got on it, I am G, the portfolio of players was silly. I mean, these guys would sit in their office and bid a price. They would just be taking calls. Today, it's a lot different. There's a lot more competition, and I think there's a lot more agents or agencies in the market that have put a lot of downward pressure on the price for some of these guys. So I think it's getting harder and harder to find the sales that you want, and that means that you have to be really active in your outreach. You need to get a sales strategy and you need to be really aggressive in your outreach and your follow-up. So, you know, that's what I do for my clients, you know, every single day.

Because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, in a person in my position, you know, I better have happy clients. I need to have happy clients. Otherwise, my business doesn't exist. So, you know, I wake have happy clients. I need to have happy clients, otherwise my business doesn't exist. So I wake up every day thinking about, all right, how am I going to go create value for each one of my assets? Are things, do you notice, you kind of touched on it there,

but are things trending a certain direction economically? I know I don't have my finger on the pulse in a complete sense, but kind of seeing and hearing how money is drying up a little bit on the equipment sponsorship front and that with Nike falling out of the business, there's a little bit less competition amongst equipment manufacturers within each other that the players are kind of seeing a dip in the money that's available or the opportunities that are available through that. Do you get a sense of that from the OEM standpoint as well as other parts of the industry? Is that accurate? Yes, yes. The OEM money is not nearly where it was in the past.

And so that puts the onus back on the agent or agencies to create opportunities for their clients. I felt like this was happening for a while. I remember a couple deals back 2011, maybe just 2010, 2011, 2012, just monster deals and I'm thinking to myself, man, this is great, but when's it going to end? And the money has definitely dried up a little bit. You have to find the corporate sponsors for willing to support your client.

It's definitely a different landscape. You need to be, like I said, there's a lot of options out there. And so you need to find a way to differentiate position you're client and explain why he's worth that type of money. What's the most valuable real estate like on a player? Is it the hat? Is it the chess logo? What is that, does that vary from player to player?

Overall, it's gonna be the headwear. I term that the naming rights or the hood on the car. It's by far the most valuable. It's what everybody sees on television more clearly. The signage is obviously much larger than other branded spots on the garment. So the headwear is the headwear is the most valuable piece and most visible. Does Duffk, I know he started the year without a hat deal does Duff currently have a hat deal? There's there's no hat deal currently

He moved he moved on from a full-line deal with title S T took a look at a couple others But decided you know that he was gonna go his own route and when he decided that he said hey, you know What let's go have a little fun with this. And I said, absolutely, let's do it. So he took a look at, you know, a few creative, creatively designed hats and sewed it eye and sewed it Jessica's girlfriend. And he decided to put them in play.

And I said, great. I really think this is going to generate some substantial buzz and maybe even drive demand for your headwear. And it did. But it's also a matter of getting the value that you want to get in order to make a deal happen there. That's a little different than the official statement you gave me when I reached out for whether or not he had an MLB deal or if the hat was still wide open.

You want me to read it? Your statement was he signed a deal with BGW, ballers and gangsters worldwide, where he can wear whatever lid he wants. There you go. There you go. I accurately stated. I accurately stated. How long did you typical deals last? Like how long would a hat deal or like a sleeve deal last? Would it be for one season? Is it it three year deals how does that work? Yeah, good question.

So they can they can vary over time. You know, I think typically you're going to have deals that last from two to three years. I think one years of just a two short of time frame to get something properly activated, especially if it's a new company to the space, where there's some time where they're just like you break in your baseball mitt, they need to be broken in a little bit too, and it takes some time for them to grow into the relationship, and then year two hopefully you're running strong. So, I like to do anything from two to three years. Anything beyond that would be more than more than ideal. I think once you get really established, like you

see with some of the top players in our game, they're going to be doing, if I'm working for somebody who's top five or top 10, hopefully Jason's back up there again, but right now, I'd be looking at somewhere around five years for one of those guys. So those guys have some staying power and some star power. So what do you see as being the most important from a marketing perspective? Like, is it social media following? Is it Q rating? Like, what do sponsors want to see from the potential sponsor. Yeah, I would say, and these are kind of words that I even use. You know, when I'm sitting down to talk to a prospect, whether that be a corporation for one of my clients or whether that be, you know, another golfer that I might be looking

to get on board, and the two kind of words are just connect. And I think if you're a brand marketer, you're looking for a personality, and when I say personality, I think you're looking for somebody who's different and discernible that your brand can really connect to. I think this story's got to be there for the brand. You know, we can get deeply technical on impressions, you know, whether that's TV, digital, social, your engagements, your website clicks, etc. If you want, and I think all those metrics are really important. However, at the end of the day, And then you're kind of have the data,

which is indisputable data that you have to really support why this is going to work for you. So I think there's two parts to it, but I said this story's got to fit first and foremost. Right, so yeah, you touched on it there. And so do you compile data to show and like exhibit the brand value provided? And along the same lines, is a deal essentially set for a fixed amount,

or are there maybe incentives to say, look, if he's in the final group of a major championship on Sunday, and he's going to get this much more exposure, that's worth something. Is that kind of a typical thing that might get built into a deal? Yeah, I mean, you're looking to put, you always want to put data behind any of your asks. You know, it needs to be, you know, you're dealing with sophisticated marketers who are mining data, you know, on a daily basis. So you definitely need to have, you know, some data behind what you're asking for.

I was always curious how like you hear, you know, market reports will save. So-and-so got this million dollars worth of exposure because he was on TV for this amount of time. Is that info that you have access to or pay attention to or is that kind of a bit too much? You can pay for it, which is what you do. So, you know, if a car is going around a track in a NASCAR race, or a golfer is coming down the stretch

on Sunday of a major championship, they're generating a lot of what's called urged media. And earned media is gonna be, if their logo is on television for X number of seconds and it's placed in the middle of the screen, or maybe it's in the corner of the screen, these companies work to quantify what that means based on what the rate card is for a 30-second spot

during one of CVS telecasts, or NBC telecasts, or ABC telecasts. So they work to come up and define those numbers. Earned media is, you know, it's an inexact, you know, science, so I don't know, you know, when marketers take a look at that, whether they, you know, whether they wait that by three quarters or half of what the number might actually be,

but I think it's this day and age, you know, there's numbers to put against everything, you know, we live in the big data, big data age, so you need to work as best you can to most accurately quantify, you know, what this player's worth because, you know, you're asking for what's going to be a pretty significant chunk of change. How different is it going into a meeting or making a cold call, you know, pre-2011 with a guy like Jason Duffner versus after being, I'm sorry, let me say pre-2013, pre-2011 with a guy like Jason Duffner versus after being, sorry, let me say pre-2013, pre-major championship,

post-major championship, how different are those conversations? Everybody knows who he is. So he's got an established profile and established brand. So I get a lot more responses than maybe I did five or six years ago because people have a certain reverence and understand, reverence for him and understand what he's accomplished. So, that doesn't necessarily mean they always have the budgets to back it up, you know, but I think they're always interested when you have somebody like him who, you know,

like I classified earlier as a personality, he's different and discernible. So people know who he is and he's well established in the space. Or not, he's not a player where, okay, we need to build a sophisticated, really, really well thought out, well informed marketing strategy for, because the guy has a pretty well-established brand in the space. They pick up the calls and they respond, and it's just a matter of whether they have the dollars or not to commit to it.

He's not as active on it anymore as much as he used to be, and you definitely don't seem like the kind of manager or agent that would hover too closely, but he used to be. And you definitely don't seem like the kind of manager agent that would hover too closely, but he used to be a lot more active on Twitter. Was there ever any times that you would make you nervous with things that he would say on Twitter? How do you view that from a marketing perspective? Damn, I think he's still active. Did you see the SPAC he had with Brando?

Well, yeah, he dives in every now and then, but he used to be like, he would just... He goes in with two feet when he goes now he would just live stream his thoughts back in the day it was awesome he seems more hesitant to wait in the waters now he does get into with brandel yeah stream of stream of consciousness yeah no he he he definitely jumps in and out i think you know for some guys is that they have they have a platform and know, they want to use it and they'll use it to voice their thoughts or to stand up for themselves if they're being

criticized. Or, you know, really, you know, from a fans perspective, you know, it's great when they're chiming in because those guys have insights or these players who I all kind of, you know, I kind of, I kind of think these great players, there's a small piece of genius or maybe for some of them a big piece of genius in some corner of their brain

and they have some incredible insights to share with the fan. And I think some of them keep to themselves and some of them share them. And I think Twitter's a great platform for that. I think it gets tough to manage if you're on it really, really frequently and you're reading a lot of comments. There's, it can be a time.

And then next thing you know, you spend an hour of your day responding to comments. Or you've responded to something that snowballed into something that you never intended. And now you got to go play a little damage control. I mean, we've seen it before. So I think, just with that, it's hard sometimes with Twitter, it's hard to get in the context. I think with that, some of these guys are, they're not as free-wheeling as they once were.

I would say that I kind of feel that in general for the guys who are pretty well established in the space that there's maybe not as much free-wheeling as there was once before. Would you agree with that? Yeah, no, I think a lot of people are just kind of, myself including realizing that a lot of just things within Twitter and social media space are just not worth it.

One, just from things being misunderstood perspective and two, when are just not worth it. One, just from a things being misunderstood perspective and two, when you just start to just reach, you know, there's only so many people that are following you or that are engaged with you that really get you or understand you or understand your tone or understand that your jokes. And it's the minority that don't get it that can discourage you from wanting to engage.

So along that line, like what keeps you up at night or what's something that you stress about as far as things that could go wrong from your side? One of them being maybe an example of social media, or anything out there that makes your job a lot harder that you worry about. You know, nothing with my clients currently really keeps me up at night. Like I said before,

if you don't have customers, your business doesn't exist or if you don't have clients, your business doesn't exist. You are always focused on retaining your current customers and then expanding the size of your customer base. And that, obviously, I want to keep my clients so happy that they're telling other players about it and they're referring me business. Ultimately, I think that's a really, really, the strongest way to build your business. And the most time-efficient way for someone like me, because I'm just one person to build your business and the most time-efficient way for someone like me because I'm just one person to build my business and for me to operate most efficiently.

But I need to spend time in business development and marketing my business and my services to other talent. And so I would say that's the thing. It's like, okay, where are you growing next? Where is the next opportunity for you? And that might not always mean every opportunity that's out there is for you. And in a business my size, I can be really nimble and I'm going to move on the right ones But I would say that that is kind of thing you're looking for the next right opportunity for your for your business I think I can speak for a lot of listeners in myself included when we had Duff on the pod last May

One he was the best example of the no-ling-up podcast bump maybe in history He won the memorial a few days later Which by the way if you guys don't know who Ben is, the video of the dude getting absolutely whiffing on the fist bump after Duff had won, that's who you're hearing right now. We're gonna have to, actually, I'm gonna put that video in the link to this. Hey, you're hanging me out to dry here, bro.

Come on, I can't make you look too good. It was a major league with. It was the best. And the camera's caught it, it was perfect. It's like, I still go looked to get it. It was, that was, that was a major league with. It was the best. And the camera's caught it, it was perfect. It's like, I still go back and watch it. And I was standing right next to you. I know, I was, I made it duck out of the way. And you just CBS camera's caught you perfectly,

going, going for the fist bump and just whiffing. But we were, I was kind of just surprised what Duff's personality was really like and what kind of, he really opened up and shared a lot of things that I've never heard him say before and whatnot. But how easy have a guy as he to work for from your perspective?

Really easy. When you've been together that long, you have a very clear understanding of what expectations are. And that takes the pressure really out of the relationship. It's that, look, you know what he's willing to do and what he's willing to accept. And it's up to me to deliver on those expectations. And so, you know, when we talk or when we talk every day, you know, I saw him earlier today and we talked for a while and we're doing, we're working a little bit of strategy in terms of how we want to move a piece of

open inventory for him. You know, that's what we're talking about. He's not bothering me with nonsense. So, you know, it's really easy and it's a lot of fun. I mean, as you saw, he's a great guy. He can wrap with anybody. I mean, he's a pretty sharp guy. And what's your relationship like outside of work?

I mean, I see it on social media. You guys are going to football games and stuff together. I mean, your relationship is not just from a professional perspective. And law school lecture is apparently now too. So that was actually a lot of fun. Yeah, man, we have a friendship. From the time that I was not at IMG, which is about a year

and a half or two years, we've maintained a really close friendship. So it's been good. I call them one of my dearest friends. Switching lanes here a little bit, what's the process like for trying to sign a new client, both from an upcoming player perspective and like a player that may be looking for new representation

or do they typically reach out to you for that? Are you just hunting guys when they're at very young ages? What's the process like? I want me to give away my trade secrets. No, I just get the general process. Keep it under lock and key. I know it's competitive out there. Yeah, it is competitive.

I think there's kind of two things that you need to do to sign a top player. Number one, you need to find a way to build trust. However, you want to do that, whatever your style is, find a way to build trust, build it early, and build it over time. I think it's integral if you want to sign one of these top young amateur players that you get in early. That would be number one. Number two, gotta be aggressive. Repetition is key. So, I kind of likened it to brand recall. You need to be there watching these kids play spending time with their parents or the other centers of influence around them. So that's what I would, I mean, whether it's what I do or whether it's a college football coach,

I think they would kind of tell you the same thing. Kind of tell you the same thing. I mean, those are two. If you don't have those two things going on, you're not going to get who you want. What's one of your favorite places to travel to, one of your favorite stops? This is going to sound so sentimental. Oh, hit me with it.

Hit me with it. Palette Beach. OK. I mean, it's that place. I mean, it's funny that's or coincidental, that's a place that we met. Dude, walking there in 2010, I don't know if I saw Cloud all week. It was majestic.

I mean, I don't know if there's a cloud all week. It was, it was majestic. I mean, I don't know if there's a better walk out there than that one. And, you know, surrounding Carmel, Carmel by the sea, 17 mile drive, and that place is such a tree. It doesn't get any better than that. What's your least favorite? Ssh, man, good question. I don't know, man.

I'd least favorite to travel to. I don't know if I have like a least favorite PJ tour stop. I mean, think about all the markets. They're all, they're all pretty good. I don't know if I have like a least favorite. I don't know if I can pinpoint one. Maybe, maybe some, I mean, and I'm trying to think, I haven't, luckily I haven't had a real, some people have some crazy travel stories. I'm not necessarily one of those people. I would say, I can't pinpoint any particular one

domestically. I can't say I'm in love with traveling over to China. Okay. That's a good one. It is. Yeah, I mean, I think you went there. I did not know. Man, there's a lot of traffic, a lot of people,

a lot of smog. I just kind of felt overall just unhealthy when I was over there. It was, I mean, it was far from enjoyable. So I was glad to find that as my least enjoyable. I've yet to find anybody that said a good thing about playing over there. So I just remember in summer of 2012, running into you in Silvis, Illinois,

on like a Smoking Hot Thursday afternoon for John Deere, meaning like, yeah, like these guys work hard. And you always gotta wear pants too. Like there's some. There's always got to wear pants too. Like there's some. There's probably wearing wool slacks too. Oh, gosh. You didn't hear out on the grind out there.

I think I was watching. I think I might have. Yeah, it's still, I mean, that syllabus gets hot. I think I was watching Jamie Lovemark play when we were in really hot pursuit of him. There was another, another young player you were in very hot pursuit of at that time. I don't know if you're willing to share that as well, but do you remember who that would

have been? You would have been an amateur at the time. I think Jamie wasn't amateur would go ahead hit. I mean, I mean, it's a bit. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. So, okay. It was a year or two later then. Yeah. Okay. Maybe it was. That was two later then. Yeah. Oh, okay, maybe it was. That was, maybe it's 13. Yeah, and that was a really, really competitive recruitment. I mean, there you go. That's the perfect example. Jay did a really good job of getting in there early building trust and being there when

Jordan played and building a really good relationship with his parents. So he was in Jordan's obviously from Dallas. J.A.B.E.B.E. was in Dallas and he did a really nice job to sign him. I mean that was a crazy competitive recruitment. I was still at IMG at the time. Remember we had the biggest hitters from our corporate office going down there, much like I'm sure other agencies did, going down there to meet with them. So did you feel close on that one? Anytime you put in that much time or effort, and those people are willing to give you

their time like that, I think you always feel close. Do you ever really know at the I think you always feel close. Do you ever really know at the end of the day how close you were? Not really. I'm sure the other agencies at the time, whoever else was in the mix, also felt maybe that they were going to get the nod or maybe that they were close. But my short answer would be, yeah, I think we fell close.

And I mean, I've never talked to Jordan about it. Probably never will, and he probably already forgot about it. So, but yeah, I mean, those are, there's a couple, couple, you know, ones where you think you're in really good position. And look, it happens to everybody. You know, we just watched on National Signing Day, and it happens for the entire public to see who got close and who didn't. And fortunately, it's not quite as put.

It's really not even close to quite as public as that. But yeah, I mean, there's some you feel like you're going to get across the finish line. You feel good about it. And they go a different direction. So you just got to, yeah, I mean, there's some you feel like you're going to get across the finish line, you feel good about it, and they go a different direction. So you just got to, yeah, dude, it's part of the business, man. You're going to win some, you're going to lose some. And in the recruiting business, it's much like anything else.

I mean, you saw, I probably saw Nick Folls comment after the game about his, you know, about about failures, and it's the same thing. You try to learn as much as you can from those recruitments about what you can tweak in your strategy or how you staff the recruitment or who you bring into the mix or who you don't bring into the mix going forward. I mean, there's just so many, so many tentacles to recruitment. I mean, it's a real adrenaline rush. Let me tell you that, you know, but it's tough. No doubt. What's different about PGA tour life than

general perception most fans likely have of it? Like my life or just life on the tour? Life on the tour in general. Yeah. You know you know, it's, it's, it's a job. Uh, and this is, you know, they're, they might be playing golf and it might be a hobby to a lot of us, but it's their place of, of, of, two or stops are their place of business, and that's their place of business for the week. And they are their own business. So, you know, I think some fans I think some fans probably just think, hey man, these guys are entertainers and what they're going country club to country club.

They don't at all view, I think for the most part, a lot of guys don't really view it that way. It's their job and they're going out there to do what they need to do to earn. I mean, you've heard it probably from a lot of guys on your pot. Nothing out there is guaranteed. I mean, guys who are sitting at the end of an NBA bench might be making $5,6,7,8 million. Who knows? JR Smith, he doesn't play a lot of the cabs, he's still collecting on that big contract. He doesn't go in anywhere. But these guys, they got to go out and earn every single week. It's a grind. You hear these stories.

Look at a guy like Ted Potter. What a perfect example. He's coiled on the mini tour and then he works his way up. Then he wins a tour event and gets to whatever he is in the world and you think he's going to take off and breaks his ankle and down and out he goes for the next five years and then he's back, I mean, good for him. He's back on top, but that's what I would say is that you, the fans see the guys or folks who go to the tour stop, see the guys at the top of the game and you know, know, that's, that's, I think, the generally accepted view is that,

that's what it's like to be on the PGA tour, but in reality, it's, it's far different. Last one, we'll get you out of here. You, you know, a lot of the guys out there with as much experience you have, who's somebody that's like sneaky way cooler than somebody might think that by watching on TV? Niki way cooler than somebody might think by watching on TV. Sneaky cool or sneaky just like a funny guy or like one of your favorite guys that you that we might not think is the case. Oh man. Wow.

Tough one to end on. It is a tough one to end up. Wow, I who tough one to end on and it's tough one to end up I know who I would say is like really really sneaky cool or really sneaky like I don't know throw another one at me Sally I can't get you a good answer on that all right Well, I got a mouse for me. I did have one last one is like what do you do you are you responsible for like booking flights hotels and all that stuff for your players? Oh, such a dud ending question. I know. I didn't want, I had a good one. You couldn't answer it.

I can't give you a great answer on that. Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a little bit of administrative work that I do, but the PGA tour is set up in a way where they have an in-house travel office office or travel agency and you know all you have to do, I get a text, I get a call, I just dial them up and bang it's done. It takes no part of my day. I mean it takes seconds off my day which I'm not worried about that. So it means on most accounts you know usually there's some type of administrator. I don't have one currently.

I'll likely add somebody who can take care of that stuff once I begin to add in some more clients. But, I mean, that stuff is so easy to stay at age. It doesn't take any time. I'll give you a good decent last one. For anyone out there listening that wants to become an agent what's been Walter's lasting advice. My lasting advice is I and I think to really bring it full circle is work the network. There's not any real linear plan to becoming, quote unquote,

becoming an agent that's not like there's a path about another service firm like an accounting or law firm where you progress through certain levels, programs, certifications, and then all of a sudden, you know, 15 or 20 years later, you become a partner. I think it's, like I said, going back to the recruitment comment too,

it's relationships are, relationships are integral. If you have a relationship with somebody who's got a lot of talent and you wanna get into the game, that's one way to get into the game. But if you're on the outside looking in and you wanna get in the golf space or you wanna get into the game. But if you're on the outside looking in and you want to get in the golf space, or you want to get into the football space, or the baseball space, work that network, ask for introductions, ask for referrals, and do all you can to try and get in front of some of the people who are in the business.

There's no silver bullet to say, this is the way you're going to get into the business. Like I said at the start of the conversation, I got lucky. That's a good book, man. That was good. Enjoyed it. So we'll let you go on that. Be well. Thanks for the time. Best of luck. Yeah, man. With a coming season. We'll be seeing plenty of each other, I think, in the coming months.

And look forward to it. All right, man. Thanks for having me. You bet. Cheers, man. Take care. See you. Get the right club. Feed a right club today. Yes. That is better than most. How about it?

That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different? Better than most.