No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 125: Curtis Strange and Mark O’Meara

Episode Date: March 15, 2018

Live from Bay Hill, Curtis Strange and Mark O’Meara join the podcast to talk about their favorite Arnold Palmer memories, as well as tell stories from their days. The range of topics is vast, from... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 125: Curtis Strange and Mark O’Meara appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to give it a try. Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different! Ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the No-Langout podcast. We are here at Bay Hill,

two guests. We don't usually do this, but this special occasion we have Mr. Curtis Strange. Welcome Curtis. Hey thanks. And Mr. Marco Mira. How was Chick-fil-A this morning? Yeah, it was awesome. Chris, it's a funny thing when you and I can bump into each other before we've ever met each other at the drive-through at the Chick-fil-A. At least you guys got something to eat. Nothing here, pal. He's cranky. We want an extra veterans while this deal. We want an extra cranky Curtis. You got him. I was pulling through the parking lot. We've never met before and I just rolled down my window and you start I'm start smiling immediately

like we knew each other, which was great. But kind of felt awkward. I was like, you don't know me, but we're about to meet and do a podcast. No, this is fun Chris. Thanks for having us on. No, it's good. We want to, we love to get some,

get some old stories from back in the day. But first, what, we're here at Bay Hill. What are you guys, what's your, what's your reason for being here? What's your, what's your affiliation with the event? What are we doing here? Well, you know, we both played here for many, many years, but we're both ambassador for MasterCard.

And MasterCard being the title sponsor this week and has been for 15, 16 years and 16 years. And great association with the Arnold Palmer Invitational. And especially our old friend that we miss, dearly Arnold. He's not with us anymore, but his legacy continues, and it's great that Master Card is re-upped and been a part of this, and I just think it's a great week. We're in Florida, the guys have,

are ending a great Florida swing, but it's a special week because of who started this, Mr. Palmer, and his place at Bay Hill, and so we're in both glad to be here. I do some stuff for the family here last year in this year after Arnold's passing, and it's just, it's nice to come back to a place you've played so many times

and have so many fond memories of being around Arnold. Mark, what's your first memory of Arnold Palmer? To be honest with Chris, when my first came on the PGA tour, I grew up, you know, idolizing Jack Nicholas. I was that era. He was the greatest player at the greatest record. And I obviously knew of Mr. Palmer, but I never really had an opportunity to watch him play as much. And then when I came on the tour, I guess I got my card in the fall of 80, 81, was my first full year on the PGA tour. I came to Phoenix, which was the second tournament that I'd ever was going to play on the PGA tour.

I was going to play nine holes Tuesday, late afternoon at Phoenix Country Club, and I walk on the T. There's no one around. And all of a sudden, this huge group of people come running over to the T. And I'm thinking, I'm in the way, there's going to be a shootout or something's happening. And I back away, and I stand on the corner of the tee. And who walks on to the tee? Mr. Palmer. The guy. The man, the king.

Comes on to the tee. I see him and I said, hi, Mr. Palmer. Just got away in the corner of the tee and he goes, hey Mark, what are you doing? I'm like, well, sir, I was gonna play a couple holes, but please, I'm gonna go ahead. And he goes, no son, come on, you're with me. And as Curtis can certainly attest,

you know, being a wake forest man and having the career that Curtis Stranges had, you know, come on, you're with me. And as Curtis can certainly attest, you know, being a wake forest man and having the career that Curtis Strange has had, you know, Mr. Palmer just, he'll take you right under his wing. And he, when he looked at you, and when he talked to you, he made you feel like you're the only person. He's looking at it.

He made you feel like, hey, you're special. Come with me, kid. And he took me out there. We played nine holes. I remember on the first hole is a part five, and I didn't hit the ball that good, but I put it unbelievably well.

And I make a putt for birdie on the first hole, and I rolled one in on the second hole for birdie. And I rolled another one on the third hole from 30 feet. And I think I made up 40 footer or one putt of the four out of the first five holes or something. And he was looking over me like, what the hell's going on here? Who is this guy who is this kid and let me see that putter and I said sir

You're gonna be pleasantly surprised because he just you know He's always I and equipment. He's always fiddling with his equipment and he turned the putter over Wilson designed by Arnold Palmer. He goes hell I got about five of these at my storage none of them work like this So I said well sir I won the amateur with those ones. He's like, he never made a putt in his life. Exactly. All those guys do.

So yeah, I mean, that was my really first experience. And then from that day on, I realized no disrespect. I mean, Arnold Palmer became my true hero. He really did. Were you extra nervous to play shots in front of him at that stage in your career? I'm nervous playing shots in front of anybody. Yeah.

No, but for sure, when you're playing with a legend like that, whether it's Jack Nicholas, Arnold Palmer, some of the greats that we came along at the right time, I believe Curtis and I, Curtis, a year and a half older than I am, but we got to play with Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicholas. We were around Gene Serra's and we got to play with Miller Parker. Byron and Sulara Nelson. Sam Sneed played.

He was a big mentor of mine, all the old greats who paved the way for us. And seriously, paved the way, driving this country from tournament to tournament and making paths and developing this tour back in the day that we see today. It's there, the stories that when you have a beer, they're the guys you want to hang with because they're the true stories and a lot of them funny. But a lot of hardcore tough guys too. I love asking a lot of the young guys we talked to about what their first Tiger memory is or playing with Tiger. We had a couple of guys from the web.com tour on recently in lukega three played with tiger at the 2014 Honda You should see him light up talking about and but you don't see that's the difference and you know the young kids today

That's as far back as they go right I'm lucky right that I'm that I know Sam that's why and Arnold and Jack. And now, we do know Tiger. We're in an area where we know both. And in each generation can say that. But when you talk about the true grace of the game, I mean, seriously, Tiger is right there, arguably the best of all time. One or two, anyway, Jack, Nicholas.

But then when you can go back to the the trough front of of Sneed, Hogan and Nelson, really, you look at their records and how they dominated. I mean, it's just it's fantastic. And you know, it goes back too far for even you. Right. But I've been lucky enough to see and play with all of them. And you're saying, you know, those guys are so much credited with what golf has become today. It wasn't the sport that it was that it is now. Yeah, it's not Tigers tour.

No. It's really their tour. And we're just lucky to be a part of that. Right. You know, Curtis Strange, Mark O'Mear and Tiger Woods. Right. So he certainly made an impact though. Yeah.

What was your first memory of Mr. Palmer? Oh gosh. Going way back. Sure. My dad was a club pro. No reference to the club pro guy, OK? Played a little bit better than him. Never played the Ticati tour, but thought about it.

You know, my dad played against Arnold at Amargoff, in Ohio, New Arnold. He was on the Arnold Palmer Golf staff for a number of years. And that means I played Arnold Palmer Golf clubs for a number of years, and that means I played Arnold Palmer Golf Clubs for a number of years as a junior player. Progress went to Wake Forest on an Arnold Palmer Golf Scholarship and held this guy in such world that you have, you hold up to heroes status. And when you finally, if you're lucky enough to meet that guy, a lot of times they disappoint because you know, you never meet your heroes.

Never meet your heroes. Well, you know, a lot of times they don't because they're normal human beings and they're just very talented in what they do. Arnold Palmer wasn't like that. He always, He always impressed. He was as good as what you thought he would be every day. And that's why he was so beloved, not only in the golf world, but everywhere. And then I got to know this guy.

And on a personal basis, and I spent my honeymoon night, second night, and Arnold Palmer's house, Sarah and I did. We got married on a Friday night at six o'clock, and we were on a plane at 10 o'clock to go to Pennsylvania to play with an ex-subish with Arnold, and they were paying me $1,000. I was going to travel the world for $1,000 back then. I was 21 years old.

So we flew back to Arnold's house, spent the second night honeymoon, and we came down here to Behill for three days in honeymoon, and then off around the world. My wife was 20 years old. She didn't have a clue what was her idea to hit her. So anyway, I got to know Arnold and just, you know, there's very few people in this world that make a difference in your life and he did to a lot of people. You and I were talking before we were recording about something you heard recently about Dustin Johnson.

You want to tell the story what you said? Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, Dustin, you know, I tried not to ever be the older guy that oh back in my day when there we could play or whatever. These guys are so talented and so good and even better than their talent, you know Jordan and Justin and Jason and Ricky and you can name Maul down the line are such good guys. I mean they're great to be around, they're great to be around, they're fun to be around, and I have to change my attitude.

I never wanted to sit on the last grain and watch my buddy win. I was getting the hell out of dodge, but they do. And it's a normal thing for them, but I heard something about Dustin Johnson that nobody's ever heard him say a negative thing about anybody. That's a pretty good thing to have to say about you.

And he's not only a wonderful player and my gosh got more talent, his little finger than most of us have in our entire body, but just it's a nice person. And I could say that about Arnold, but these guys are so talented, so good and hit it so far and and and and a great with fans. You guys obviously individually have storied careers that we could we could dig in on but what what do you guys remember the most about a time you guys went head to head against each other in a major and event what event sticks out in your mind is memories of going against each other. I have one. Oh here we go. Stop it. I have. You know what? We were going head to head at Pebble Beach for the for the I don't know if it's the AT&T back then or not and This guy made everything. I mean I'm right. I did how many times you made every time I mean

I'm thinking of myself. I actually acted like Arnold Palmer. This guy. He should never win You want to know a trivia question real quick? Curtis? I don't know trivia question if he if he couldn't put it be picking cotton back in California, something. You want to know trivia question? What's that? It's on trivia pursuit. Somebody told me.

What's that? Who's the last man to win the Bing Crosby Pro Am? Ooh, that's a good thing to have on your resume. Really? 1985, baby. Well, that's $2.50, buy you a cup of coffee, Pat. Well, I think I won maybe by 54 grand or something.

Oh no, but anyway, we went head to head, but we had, it was nothing but he and I too. Nobody else is close, so we had a great match and he came on top. Mark and I played in a lot of, over two or three team events together. And I had a great, you know, just, we've been friends for a long time.

Chris, I can tell you that, luckily Curtis has been a pro a little longer than I have, but I think this is my 38th year of playing professional golf around the world, and I can honestly say that the times that I've played with Curtis Strange, I would tell you that I would, I'd be willing to put my life on the line when he was in his prime.

If I needed somebody besides Guy like Jack Nicholas, and before this is before Tiger Woods, I ever came into the picture. If I needed somebody besides guy like Jack Nicholas, and before this is before Tiger Woods ever came into the picture, if I needed somebody to make a 10 foot pot on the last screen to get something done, that guy would be Kurdish Strange. Are you disaying that because he's sitting here? No, I'm telling you that because he made those pots

when he was my partner, thank God he did, because we won a couple of tournaments together because of it. What did you got, what team events did you guys play in? Well, the very first, what was it called back then? I think it was the shark shootout. The Dunhill Cup we played. Dunhill Cup.

We were victorious, but shark shootout and we were playing together in team events. Runner Cup. Runner Cup. My, my, another memory of Mark and I, we're here we go. 1985, Rhottacup, Bell Freight. Now, that's my first one. were here we go. 1985 Rodicup, Vell Frey. Now, it's my first one.

I don't care. Yeah, I'm nervous. Come on, man. So we're playing first T-shot, alternate shot. We choose Mark to hit the first shot because of the way the horse, the horse, course leads up to the way we were the horse that might, for sure, for Strait is an arrow. You want to never do it.

Boring, par four. I hit my second shot out of the tented village out of some bowl of pasta. It went so far to the right. I took it off the right tense off the right of the bell free on the first hole. And obviously I was extremely nervous, Chris. I mean, what could you say? Your first rider top on playing with Curtis trained. And you know, he had a little more experience than I did.

And he was a little cooler. Geez, we're at least the club a little bit though. I'm sorry. I was worried about snap hooking it over in the left gun. So I hung it to the right and we were just talking about the left miss. I played the practice rounds and I saw those tents

to the right of the bunker over there and I figured the pitch on the tents is perfect. If I flame it, it's not out of bounds, it'll come right off the tent. I hate those. I'm perbullying. He goes, we're walking off the tea goes. Now that was really something to be hold

I mean that was spectacular t-shirt there. I'm on like hey just go find it put it up there by the green I'll pitch up that you'll make a par and I I think we want our We beat their ass. You just got to get past that first shot right well I mean everybody's nervous on the first Yeah, you're not human. Oh absolutely did you just want to have the the t-shirt on number 10? Is that why you you want to be a even host? Well, I laid up there every time. I didn't have the wrong podcast for that. I didn't have Oh, sorry. Well, you know, I did go for one time, but you know, what a great match play hole a drivable par four of a water and depends on how you stand in the match is how you what your strategy is in the hole, but that that goes way back. But Roda Cup is one of the greatest

weeks you'll ever be a part of. And do you guys, were you guys partners more than just that one time or? I just think that one time. I think how many teams did you guys play on together? I played on five Router Cup teams. I did two five. And you know, I always say, what years were your 83 so five seven five, seven, nine, and 95. Yeah, so I played 85. I would play with you in 89. Yeah.

So a couple teams we paired up together. I remember that same year in 85. Couple of things happened. One of the matches I play with Tom Watson is my partner. And of course, on the first screen, I'm obviously nervous playing with Tom. And he's trying to give me like a putting lesson. And I'm like, listen, don't worry worry about me you just need to play good you know I mean I'm just this rookie kid playing

on my first rider cup trying not to throw up on myself and here I got Tom Watson trying to give me a putting less than I hope you play well because if you don't this could be a problem for our team and we did okay and and Curtis was probably tons of stories too and then later that week I was paired with Lanny Watkins and we played against Seville Ballastero's and Manuel Pinero and they talk about the Ryder Cup today where the couple of Ryder Cup teams I was on two losing teams two winning teams and a tying team so I saw all aspects of what the Ryder Cup was all about and it's interesting because that first year I remember they introduced myself on the tee. We were playing basketball against Ballasteros and and Pinero and and you know people

clapped. They didn't know who Mark on Erick was. That was fine. But then they introduced Lanny Watkins and they like boo. There was like about 15 people boo like you're the you know and Curtis will tell you that. So everybody acted like when we were playing America if we won, you know, they were the ugly Americans, this and that. And I'm like, wait a minute, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. When we played at the Bell Free and you're in Birmingham, England, it can get a little...

You got some abuse over there. Yeah, yeah, we're walking off the tee and I looked at Lanny and I'm like, and Lanny came over and he goes, let me tell you what, M-O, you don't say one, a thing word to these people. I will handle everything, You just play golf.

And you got an old Lanny, Lanny and Curtis go way back. He's got the head shake and everything. We drilled him like six and five or something like that. Lanny was just loving every minute of it. Does that fit into the spirit of the competition? Do you think or does it border? At least in that era, did it border on the edge of being kind of inappropriate or against the spirit of the game?

No, I just think that it's a different event. You know, golf is usually an individual game. And all of a sudden, you know, you throw the team concept. And for so many years, you know, when Arnold and Jack and everybody, the US always dominated the Ryder Cup. And it never really became a big enough deal until Europe won the Ryder Cup and took it away from America. In 1985.

When we, in 1983, my first Ryder Cup, there was probably 1500 people, 1500 people at Palm Beach, Sunday afternoon at the end of the matches. We went to the Bell Free in 1985, and there's always a lot of people over there, and we lost, and we came back in 1987 in Mirafield Village, and there was 25,000 out there on Sunday. And that was the first time the Euros had won on the US oil. Yeah, yeah, on your field. But it changed overnight. Much like the America's Cup.

Nobody paid attention until you lost. And it changed a great deal. But it also changed for one very big reason, which for the names of Langer, Lyle, Wuznum, Sevy, Torrance. And Fowdo. Those five, that five nucleus was a big part of their, their Ryder cups for 15 years, and they were five of the top 12, 15 players in the world.

So they were tough to beat. Yeah, how different was it being, obviously, it's very different, but you played on five Ryder cups, I think you said, and then you became the captain. Was it a different kind of pressure to become the captain? Was it hard to not be out there playing when you're after that experience? It was the greatest week for Sarah, my wife, and I ever outside of plan. It was you

know that you prepare for a year and a half. We were delayed a year because of 9-11. That was my captaincy. We kept the same team. I was adamant about this is our 2001 team same close same everything And we went over there with a little different attitude, you know about us civility, you know, let's represent our country and our people well They were the same way Sam and I worked hard at that. And I think we accomplished that. But the guys, I'm telling you what, everybody asked about Tiger Woods. He was the first in line to do anything.

The guys were fantastic. They listened, which surprised me a little bit. They want to know what to do and where to do it and what time to be there. The women were fantastic. Girl girlfriend, spouses, whatever. It was a fantastic week. We didn't win, but it was still something I'll never forget. How did it work out? And I don't really remember the team.

Like you said, you kept the same team for 2001. How different would the team have looked? Had you redone the team for 2002? Did it play to any teams that made it? I never looked at that. Good question. And I have been asked that because why didn't you change teams and continue the qualifying? Well, that wouldn't be fair for the guys who qualified in the specific amount of time to change the

teams because some terrorists tore down some buildings in New York City. That would be ridiculous. So we just kept the same team. No, more qualified. You're the team. You're going in in another year over to the Belfri. And they did the the same thing and it was just the right thing to do. Also the right thing to do was delay it a year. We were supposed to leave in two weeks to get on an airplane. We called the State Department, we didn't, you know, everybody remember this. We didn't know what was happening that morning and you know, we didn't know if there was another plane out there, we

didn't know anything. So the last thing on our mind was getting on an airplane and going overseas. And everybody was the same way. On my team, the fans, the organizations, and it was really a questionable time in our history. And so the last thing I wanted to worry about was the rider cup team. No, you kidding me?

The right decision. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it was way too soon. me the right decision Oh, yeah, that's a lot. Yeah, it's way too soon All right some big news from our friends at Calaway as of today this Thursday The new road driver is available on Calaway customs. This means you can use the interactive configurator at a detailed Personalization. There's two different zones that you can do that in and there's nine different colored options There's black red white pink gold blue pink, gold, blue, more. You can make the driver entirely your own. I just went and checked it out myself.

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Strange and Marco Mira so before we let Curtis talk about 88 at Brookline in the US open you were you finished third that year is that right yeah that's correct what do you remember what you don't remember you finishing third. Of course you would. Yeah. Why would you? All I all I remember is is that you know play that week. I'm sorry. Yeah, Brooklyn. What a great track. I mean, just an incredible track.

And you know, I understand why Curtis Strange had the record he had in the US GA events and the US. Stop it. I mean, listen, he drives the ball straight, he doesn't make any mistakes, he's very methodical, you know, any puts good. I know he won't think he does, but he does. I know anybody who's won the amount of tournaments

that Curtis or any guy that's won 15, 16, 17, 20 times in the PJ tour, he got a putt well. And I remember that week, I was playing pretty well and I came to the last hole and I know I was pretty sure I needed to make birdie to win. And I actually hit it for me a pretty good drive up the right side of the fairway, but it just ran through the fairway about a basically a foot crisp, to be honest. And that's where unfortunately the deepest rough is. So I kind of tried to hack it out. It got up into the front bunker. I didn't get it up and down. I made a bogey. So I think I tried to hack it out. It got up into the front bunker. I didn't get it up and down I made a buggy. So I think I finished two shots behind, you know Curtis and Fowldo, right?

Oh, yeah. The little playoff? Oh, yeah. So they went, you know, an extra 18 holes on Monday and certainly Nick is as well known for the grinder and the competitor that he is. So I imagine it made it even extra special for Curtis. It was disappointing for me to finish third behind those two, but on the other hand, I had a shot. I just didn't get it done. So are you upset to see the Curtis, the change in from the 18-hole playoff at the US open to now it being a two-hole playoff

with your memory of a playoff? No, I'm not. I think golf has changed. It's important, you know, I've done TV for 21 years. You see another side of the business world that you appreciate for the fan standpoint. I was asked six weeks ago what I thought about it and you know I changed my mind about the 18-O playoff. It probably is the most fair way to do

it but think about the volunteers have to come back. The fans have to go to work. TV, it cost TV, Fox, if we had a playoff this past year and Fox it would cost to many where from 250 to $500,000 to bring us all back, to bring everybody back, not the announcers, how about the crew? And just, it's the right thing to do. And when, think about a two-hole playoff or a sudden death, I would actually vote it for a sudden death. But they have a two-hole playoff aggregate

that which goes into sudden death, Sunday night on national television with that viewership. Be the most exciting golf of all. And they wanna win around Sunday. Yeah, we all want to win on Sunday There's it's a business people have things to do on Monday and we have another tournament the next week, right? So It's the right thing to do. Okay. I'm supposed to ask about your twin brother at The US Open at Brookline. All right. You can tell the story. I do it. I'm gonna make a long story short my twin brother I have a twin brother who is a hell of a player Alright, you want me to tell the story? I do. I'm going to make a long story short.

I have a twin brother who is a hell of a player. He played on tour in 81 Allen. So Allen never showed up ever in my life when I was playing well. He just, he got it, he understood it. We'll watch him afar. We talk every other day. We talked every Sunday night in Monday morning my entire career. And he was the only guy that would give me honest answers about what he saw

doing right or wrong. I like that. So he gets talked in to coming up Monday morning for the playoff. My uncle, him and two friends. Like fly on a private airplane, they get in their rent a car, they get two miles from the country club, they realize they have no passes for this playoff. My twin brother, a denicle twin brother, that's key. Oh my god.

So we'll just put Allen behind the wheel of the car. So they drive up to the gate like they own the place. Hey, morning, hey, Curtis, how you doing? Kick his ass today, okay? So he gets first obstacle succeeded. Get through the front gate. He's got shorts and a golf shirt on. So now, people don't rise with a USGA

that to get four free tickets from them or to get four tickets, you have to kind of promise your first board, okay? They don't like to give anything away. So they talked the way into the clubhouse, getting the office to get four tickets, okay? Now they got three credentials. So now it's like 11.30, we're playing about two o'clock. So Alan likes a refreshing drink once in a while.

So next thing you know, it's about 12 o'clock and they start drinking beer right there out back the clubhouse in front of 500 people or 1,000 people. So now you can just hear the whispers out there. Look at Curtis over there. Good God, is that a Budweiser? He's warming up just like I do once there any morning.

So that starts. So now they stay there and as more people get together and I seem when I'm warming up on the putting green get ready to go to the first tee. He's already got a stack of cups that they've finished off. Now there's 10,000 people out there. Everybody's seeing Curtis is drinking before he plays the playoff. Long story short, it was kind of funny. He watched the whole playoff. I loved him being there. He watched the whole playoff. I loved him being there.

He got to walk inside the ropes with Jerry Pate for ABC, the second nine holes. When I walked off the green in one, it was so loud. He was right there and he screamed at me and I didn't hear him. And they left. Now who would I have rather had a beer with at night than my twin brother and my wife and my uncle? Well, he left.

And everybody says, why did you leave? He didn't need me then. If he lost out of state. Wow. So it's a pretty cool story. He got to the phone rang at 3 a.m. that night. And it was Alan and we talked for an hour. That's cool.

So it's a nice story. We have enjoyed. And he's enjoyed embellishing the story over the years just a bit. You hadn't, that was your first major win. Yeah. Sleepin', I guess, how did you sleep that Sunday night before that Monday? You know, not very well, but who does? Right. I mean, you realize tomorrow is a damn important day

in your life. And I had just, you know, four years before thrown away, lost a master's when I felt like I really should have won. And this is, and I had a couple of chances in US Open after that. But whatever, this was my chance. And it's gonna be a big day. And any mistakes gonna be magnified.

So no, you don't sleep well, you get up early. The hardest time mark, as you know, in golf, is when you get up early the hardest time mark as you know Oh, yeah, and golf is when you get up early and you have that late tea time. What do you do then? You watch them TV. Well the open championship you do. Yeah, but that only gets me nervous But you sit around and that's before ESPN was just starting then Chris Burman met me on the 18th green So there wasn't much to do. So you read the paper and you try not to read about yourself,

but you did, couldn't help it. And when you finally got to the golf course at 1231, you know, game was on for it. You know, my game started when I walked in the locker room, not when I walked on the first tee. And it was a very, I never, ever relax that day, ever. It's, it was a, hey Mark's been in it. Yeah.

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's not easy, but it's not supposed to be easy. Right. It's, if it was easy, everybody would do it. Yeah. And you're trained to do this and you, and you do it your own way to all the listeners that play in the club championship

or the state amateur or whatever out there, they get it. It's just on a more of a bit of a magnified scale, but they're just as nervous as I was. And you trained to do this your whole life since junior golf. This didn't start on tour. This started when you were nine and ten years old. And this day, tomorrow, you know, was a good thing as a good. They can go to the bar and start drinking some Budweiser's before they go.

Of course, they're really worried about it. That's right. That'll just. No, it was great. And, you know, and what do you do after you win the open championship, Mark O'Mehr, or the US Open Curtis trains, you go have a beer and you sit down and just kind of say, wow. Yeah, you know, I want to get to 98 in a second,

but you just mentioned the 85 masters. And I, first, you say you threw that away, the first question I have, can you tell listeners what you shot the first round? I shot 80. And I was playing really well. I already won twice that year. Yeah.

I was playing well, and I only say that, not to blow my skirt, wind up my skirt, but I expected to do well there. Snowman. Snowman. And you know what, it's the way a gust of is, if you get behind the eight ball, and you try to force the issue,

and then you get to where we screw this, I've had enough, and I shot 80. The next day I come out, I try, but I've already, I've got an airplane ticket in my back pocket. I'm getting the hell out of there. I've just had my second boy two week before. So I had a reason to get the hell out of Dodge and go home. And so I go out, relaxed, I birded the second hole, and I eagle the third, came on. Now I might not make the cut but let's have some pride and shoot a good score here. Because every round helps you for the next year or the next week. If I play

good today I might go play well for the next month. That's my mentality. So then I birdied four. Game on. Next thing I know I'm on the leaderboard. Next thing you know I'm on the leaderboard next so you know I'm getting damn nervous out there. I shot 65 hell it should have been 63 I was pissed. I was really pissed and so anyway Shot 68 the next day in windy conditions, and I'm too shot behind rain floyd really And then I had a shot 32 on the front nine the next day and this I had missed a shot two and a half days I never played golf like this in my life. And I'm thinking when I went to the 10th tee, I knew I knew it was still a lot of golf to be played.

And I didn't play well and I lost. Congratulations, Bernhard. But I'm sorry. I had I wanted the green jacket. But anyway, hey, you learned from that. Right. When you birdied 12, I think you left you had a three shot lead when you're playing 13 and kind of at a moment. And it weren't

hard was birdie and he was far enough ahead of me. So it was really changing quickly at that moment. Okay. Ask me some more. Two shot lead. So yeah, I think you're right. He birded 13. There's a two-shot lead. You're in the fairway on 13. Yeah. You decide to go for the green. Yeah. That's what you do. I drove it well. I drove it too well. I wish I had nicked it out to the right where I had to lay up, but I drove it around the corner I had forward. I'd rather have forward marks than a two iron off the side here lying.

Absolutely. And I just hung it a little bit and it went in the creek. The really really bad shot was the third shot out of the water. It was just a simple water shot. I didn't hit hard enough. Made six there. Do you want me to continue on? Oh, this is great.

So anyway, so I, so now I'm, so now I'm thinking, they could relate to this. So now my cutting eye gypsy who was an old, old character on tour. Okay guys, you know, we still got the lead. Let's get, where are we? You know, we're talking each other and, and so I part 14, which is not an easy part.

In 15, I had drove it well. And I got up, which, I had like a four-and-layup, I mean, not layup, go for the green, like I had like 190 or something. And I flushed this thing, and it didn't carry, but two feet short came back in the water. Wow, I had a good shot. I'll never forget the announcer who will go on name, said, it sounded like you hit it a bit thin

bull You know right at it came up shorts. I made six there. Okay, you know, we still never talked lead a game I was playing hit parts 16 17 and bogate 18 because I had a birdie, but you know what it's just You never learn from when you win. Mm-hmm. You learn when you lose and I flew home You never learn from when you win. You learn when you lose. And I flew home. And Sarah and I sunk the four and a crowd. Yeah. It was hard.

That was a hard one because it was my really first big chance and I had a newborn there. You know, now, Curtis Stranges, the Choker,oker maybe or whatever. It was hard to overcome because I knew what other people were thinking about me. And I thought I was a bit of a hard ass, and now I'm not.

And Jack Nichols came up to me the next week. I said, you'll be art. That had to mean something. Oh, yeah, you kidding me. He said, you'll be art. We've all done it. And I can't tell you how much that meant to me. Yeah. And the best thing to do is get back in competition. Jesus get back in a quick as you can and hopefully don't throw up on yourself the next time.

Well, it's such a whirlwind week too that you think and you're done. You play so well and get back up to the top and then yeah, Can you imagine the motions? Oh, no, I can't. But in your interview afterward, you had no regrets of any of the way you played it. No, I still have no regrets. Well, if I didn't, since I lost, I would be stupid to say I'd hit the same shot again. Sure. I'd hit, I might hit the forward again, but I'd hit a three iron. Right. I mean, I don't know.

But you know, you lose so much more than you ever went on tour. And Mark has his stories, I have, you know, you have to put your boots back on and get on it again. The margin for error on those shots is so small, especially hitting off that hanging lie on 13 and whatnot that people will never really... Well, maybe you play there? No, I have not. Well, we'll work that out.

13 is a very, very difficult second shot that has more slope than TV ever shows. And it's a tough shot. And you know, the shots you see, sevy used to hit or jack used to hit or the shot out of the pine straw that fill hits some years ago, they're incredible shots. Yeah. Because it's harder than it looks. Wait harder. Yeah. It's Mark going to 98. Could you have, I guess it's, it's, it's a funny time capsule, I think, in history to look back at Tiger Woods dominating winning by 12 and 97. You guys are good buddies and you're, you were 41 when you won in 98. Was there any, I guess, because the way people talked about that win for Tiger in 97 and made it sound like he was going to win every master's going forward. Was it surprising to you to be out after that performance he had 97 to go out and

whoop him in 98? Well, it was Chris to be honest with you. In 97, I remember the week before 97 is kind of documented out there. We were at home in Iowa worth playing. And I think it was on a Thursday and we teed off on 10 at Iowa worth and he shot 29 on the back nine and then he buried a couple more rolls We'll low and behold he shoots 59. And so I lost some money. We didn't play for a lot of money, but I lost whatever I lost, 150 bucks. And then the next day, we went out on a Friday.

This was in 97 the week before Augusta. And we teed off on 10. It was just Tiger and I. And I've told the story. He had a good drive on 10. And of course, he makes birdie. And we had these one downs going. And so now he gets in his cart, and I had my cart,

he flies over the 11th to your par three over the water, and he's already got the ball pegged. I'm pulling up in the cart, and he's like, M-O, you one down press, right? And I'm like, yeah, go ahead, yeah, go. And he takes out like an eight, and I'm getting out of my cart with a seven iron, and I watch him hit the shot, and it takes off,

and it's going across the pond, holding one, jars it's going to cross upon. Hold on one. Jar's it. And I, and I, I just, I walk over to his cart and I put a hundred dollars on a seat and I tell him, you know, what you say to somebody like that. I said, he goes, what are you doing? I said, here's a hundred dollars. I quit. I said, you shot 13 under yesterday. You're 300 right now. You're 16 under for 20 holes.

I said, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. I did get my degree at Long Beach State. I quit, I'm going to the range, I'm not going to do any more. And I did. And he was like, what? I got to play by myself. And lo and behold, we go to the next week,

next week we're at Augusta National 97. And he's playing with Nick Fowler the first day. And he's playing in the group in front of me, we're playing Tussum's. And he's 40 on the front nine. And he's playing in the group in front of me. We're playing Tussum's. And he's 40 on the front night. And we're sitting on the bench, we're waiting on 15. And he's made a couple of birdies,

like he's two over an hour or something. And I remember sitting down next to him, and I look over and I'm like, give him a tap on his thigh. And I said, hey man, I said, what about last week? What about when you're playing with me? How in the hell could you shoot 40 on the front side today? I said, that's crazy. You know, he went on to make eagle on that

hole. He buried a couple more holes to shoot 70 to bring it back 40, 30 at Augusta. And then he dominated he won in record fashion. And then when we came back in 98, like, you know, I'm 41, I've never won a major championship. I'm on that next best list to have never won a major, which is kind of actually a pretty nice list that anybody would think you're that good, because I don't know if I ever really was. And, leading up to the tournament, we played practice rounds as we always did.

I wasn't hitting good, Chris. I wasn't puttin good. I wasn't feeling very confident. I went out the first day. The win was blowing. Uh, this is before they lengthened the golf course. I shot 74. I remember on the 10th hole. I had about a eight footer for par. I, I, it was outside left to cup and I yipped it. And I'm thinking, I'm yipping them on Thursday on the 10th green. This doesn't bode very well. And I came off the green and I was all ticked off on 18 and shot two over. So

I remember I was Hank Caney was there and Hank's like, I said, yeah, I'm yippin' him. I'm either hitting a good and putting bad or I'm putting good and I can't hit a good, you know, you to win at a gusty, you have to put well. I didn't win any tournament yet to put well, but especially around a gust in action. You got to iron it well and put well. Big time. Yeah. Big time. I mean, there's just not a lot of room for errors. You pointed out earlier, well and put well. Big time. Yeah. Big time. I mean, there's just not a lot of room for errors. You pointed out earlier, Kristen. And so, I went to the putting green and hangs like, it looks to me like, you know, your eyes

are aiming too far right, your putter is aiming too far left. You got to get your eyes aiming more left, your putter more open. And I'm looking at it. I'm like, you're crazy. Do you understand that these greens are running 14 out here? And you want me to do all this stuff tomorrow? And he goes, well, what's the, you know, I said, okay, whatever, Hank. So I went out and I shot 70. I mean, you're just trying to make the cut to play on the weekend to move up the leaderboard. I shot 70, made the cut even par. Next day I go out and I'm thinking, okay, just play well enough

to try to make the top 24 because I'll get you back in. That was the way it was back then. And I went out and it was a windy day again and I believe I shot four under par. Next thing, I'm in the press room and I'm going to be in the last group on Sunday with Fred Couples in 1998. And of course, they reminded me in the press room about this list and I said, look, I don't look at myself as a failure because I haven't won a major championship. When I first got on the tour, I just hope to make a living, right? And a lot of things have transpired. So we get out there on Sunday.

Last group, as Curtis said, you're laid off the first tee and you're nervous and this and that. But everything just kind of fell into place to be honest with Chris. I hit it, a pull hook off the second tee up the tree line, wrecked around the trees, dropped down, didn't go down into the creek. So that was fortunate. Somehow I got it down there, hit it on the green with a nine hour and made a birdie. And just everything was happening to where I made a bomb on number four from way left

to the hole. I was just trying to two putt that top right pin placement on number four. I messed up made a, I was just trying to two putt. I made a 60 footer. And when things like that start happening, you never think, I a, I was just trying to do it, but I made a 60 footer. And when things like that start happening, you never think, I just, I remember being not only a player, but also a fan, right, watching these events. And I say to people so many times, I wonder how could anybody make a putt on the 18th green at Augusta National to win the Master's?

Just, I just don't know how you could do it to be honest with you And to be honest, I don't know how the hell my ball went in either, but Loan behold, you know, we play around we get to the 16th, let's see we're on the we're on the back nine David. Do ball was playing good all these guys are playing good and Fred and I were playing okay, but we were a couple shots back and we got to number 15 and Fred had Fred had a good tee shot Well, it actually was way right. There was no trees over there.

There's just the mounds and he flipped it up there on the green with a six iron made eagle. I made birdie and now all of a sudden he's eight under. David DuVall is sitting in Butler cabin with Jack Stevens at eight under and I'm now seven under. And 16 I hit a good tee shot, hit it on the green, hit a really good putt. I remember it didn't go in,

and I remember handing my ball to my caddy, and I said to Jerry Higgumboth, and I said, you know, Jerry, that's as good a six iron as I could hit, and that's as good a putt as I could hit under this pressure like this. I said, give me a new ball, I'm gonna bury the last two holes.

Now, I didn't believe that. I don't know why that even came out of my mouth. It was ridiculous that I said that, because I don't even know why I said it. But Chris, I did it. I burped the last two holes and I made a really cool pot in the last hole that put me up there in the Champions locker room with a green jacket. I don't think anybody expected me to win that week, including myself.

And sometimes these things happen. I was going to say, is that almost easier to kind of be coming from behind a bit, from a pressure standpoint and that your expectations on yourself are maybe less? Well, it's a perfect story with Curtis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, shooting 80, the first round and coming back within, you know, two and a half days and having the lead with a chance to win. So sometimes as good as these players are and there's a lot of pressure on all the players from our, from the early era of golfers to our era of golfers to this young generation that we have playing today. High expectations. These guys didn't get as good as they are without a lot of personal pride, a lot of dedication, a lot of hard work. But sometimes, you know, you can get your own way out there. And sometimes if you just, you know, it's like a locked door. Sometimes you're trying to get through that door. You're trying to figure out every way to get through it,

pound it, this and that, and all of a sudden, you realize, oh, wait a minute, there's another door over there. I just go through that one. Yeah, it's funny how that works out sometimes. It may not be the best question to ask to different two-time major winners, but do you think that people make too much of a deal

out of major championships and the people that haven't won them? You know, that's really a question that's talked about. There's some of the old timers realistically say, we do put a lot of emphasis on four weeks a year. And if you're a hell of a player, column a comery. And you net happen not to be lucky enough to play well those four weeks for 15 years in a row. And you don't win a major. But

you've on the other hand, one eight order of merits in Europe. There's it's a hell of a debate, isn't it? Right. It's a hell of a debate and it's very, very unusual that Colin with his talent wouldn't have won a major, but he didn't. The other European, the least would. Lee Westwood.

You really? Never won a major. Things happen. I mean, look and they're and they're great players. Yeah, you know, Sergio. I didn't I didn't know if Sergio would ever win because he's getting up there a little bit right and you know they talk about the putty and then sometimes his attitude but we were all happy for Sergio. So my point is maybe we put sometimes too much emphasis on the major. Now the four biggest terms of the year, okay, yes, but that's the way we are. As a society, as sport,

we follow our sport superbowl. You know, it's buffalo bills losing four in a row. Are the a bad football? No, they made it to four Super Bowls But there's there's there's teams and in weeks that sometimes you just don't perform and You're not a failure. I think a Dan Marino. Yeah, one of the real is quarterbacks of all time Yeah, you know never wants to which there's no question he was deserving of winning a Super Bowl And it's so many other factors go into who ultimately wins especially in football obviously the team factor but I think it can be, there can be so much emphasis on the winning and you kind of lose perspective on, I think people get labeled too early in their careers as having not one one.

You mentioned kind of being a part of that list. And there's always a list of best players that have never won a major, but there's only so many trophies in the game. Let me just put something else out there for the listeners is that, yeah, from the fan standpoint, it's four majors a year and the players, but there are also two or three or four other terms on tour that we as individuals, hold really, really high. Yeah, high record. High record.

And it's just a personal thing. Yeah. You know, I always wanted to win Colonial because my teacher, after my dad died when I was young, was Chandler Harper. He won the P.J. but he also won Colonial. So I thought that would be cool for me to win a tournament he won. I always desperately wanted to win here at Bay Hill.

Why? Because of Arnie. So you know, in Mark has his three or four. So we all, and we hold them, and we get just as nervous those weeks as we do majors. So there are majors that aren't majors. So it's a, it's, it's, it's, you can get, you get punished almost for being close to, like you get put in a different regard. And I thought Phil was labeled as almost a lovable loser for so many years.

And you don't think about it now. He's won five majors, but. Well, you know, you think about Phil and what he just accomplished a couple of weeks ago when in Mexico City, He's one five majors. But you know, you think about Phil and what are you just accomplished a couple of weeks ago when in Mexico City. There's an interesting story. The guy's one 40 40 43 one or two now. I think it's 43 now. 43 because he's got seven. Yeah. He's one 43. The interesting fact about Phil. It's never been number one in the world. It's never won the money list. And he's never been player of the year. That's just really crazy. Yeah. We know why. But yeah. Well, we understand why. I mean, if I were, it wasn't come along,

but still a bit of crazy. Yeah. So a pretty crazy frog didn't have, you know, we wouldn't bump his ass, you know, but, but we always said that about Nicholas too when I first came out. Oh, this guy would have been hell player, but Jack beat him. Oh, and no kid. That's what happens. I think Phil does. I don't think Phil gets the credit. Oh, that's what I'm saying. So what he's done. It's incredible. Much like Billy Casper has been always the guy who never got the credit for his great

play. 50 some wins on tour. But Phil, in this era, and doing it at his age, and staying involved in the game, winning, you know, what four weeks ago is incredible stuff. Standing up there on that 18th tee. Now, there's been plenty of people that won at 47 or older, but, you know, he's won a lot of tournaments. And, you know, financially, he's set.

So, there, you know, sometimes the motivation wanes a little bit. Phil, isn't, I think he's be part of the story. Curtis, I thought the incredible thing was, when I heard from someone on the 18th tee in Mexico City in the World Golf Championship a couple weeks ago, he had three wood off the tee. His ball speed with a three wood was 170 mile an hour ball speed with a three wood.

And for those who don't know what that is, that's a lot. That's a lot. That's a lot. It's incredible for 47 years of age. Yeah. So I guess the mid Incredible. For 47 years of age. So I guess the interest is to kind of get your perspective on it, Curtis, because your last win of your career was you were 34 right in the US open. Mark, you had one, two majors in your 40s.

So is it, do you kind of look at the guys that play well into their 40s and wonder like how, how this is, like, how this is the case? How it's even possible? How it works. No, I look at it. It may just be. how this is the case, how it's even possible, how it works. No, I look at it all honesty. If I'm seriously honest, I look at myself and I'm disappointed after 34.

In my career, no, I think in your 40s now, especially with all the different workout regimes and the equipment and people standing in the game. No, I don't think it's any, it's no surprise. It fills at 47 or anybody went in at 40. I'm just, personally, I'm disappointed in me. I took the TV job at 42, so I made the transition early on. But I think maybe I just kind of gave up,

but I lost my drive and that was a big part of me and for whatever reason, the mountain top, I don't know. But, you know, I don't see hell, I mountain top, the, what, I don't know. But, you know, I don't see, I, hell, I think some of these, people have 150, Davis, one at 50 years old on the regular tour. You know, can fill, do it, hell, you can do it. If Tiger stays in the game with his ability, if he stays healthy, oh heck yeah.

He'll play, he'll play, you know, he'll play on tour. I don't see him playing a lot of senior tour golf. One of my favorite stats though is that Tiger won 14 majors by the age of 32. Phil had won zero at that age. Phil has won all of his majors 33 age 33 after. It's just the old adage to golf. I don't know how old you were. Yeah. Yeah. But when you're in your experience, what what allowed you to get over the hump twice at age 41 at that age in your career? I wish I could answer that question. I don't know. I mean, I'm gonna answer for it because he hadn't done it and he knew he's a very modest guy over here, but he was incredibly talented and there was one thing missing was the major championship and is always at carrot out there, so that keeps you motivated. Well, I think he might not drive you every day, but leading up to the masters of the US Open

or the other two majors, there's a goal out there. Well, I've said this before. The greatest thing that happened to me was certainly finding the game a golf. I didn't start playing until I was 13. But when Tiger Woods came into my life, Chris, in that 1996, when I got the phone call and they were moving them out of California in Orlando as my neighbor, as a little, for whatever, look after this kid, right? McCormick had called me. And because he came into my life,

I wouldn't have won the two majors if he hadn't come into my life. Wow. Just from learning from him or motivation. It's like playing with somebody that was just so like full of piss. Keep you going. Keep you going. Keep it on. You know, I can have it a golf ball like Tiger Woods.

We can't, but when you play with somebody, it's like when somebody goes out and plays with tennis with somebody that's way better than you are, you may not be able to beat them. But all of a sudden, a couple of your ground strokes come back and it's like, whoa, comes off the rack and you're like, bad, I'd never had a ground stroke like that. And so when I was able to play and practice and be around Tiger Woods before he ever won a tournament on the PGA tour, before he ever got his card. And he used to say to me,

I want to play on Ryder Cup teams, I want to play with you as my partner, I want to play against you heads up down the stretch. He kept saying, how come you haven't won a major? I'm like, it's not like I haven't tried. I mean, I'm playing against Curtis Strange and all these other great players. It just hadn't happened.

But I believe because I was able to be around him that kept me going a little bit, but it definitely made me a better player. I laugh, I'm talking about Tiger. I laugh at the young guys now, credibly talented, hit it a long way, magnificent players. But when they say, I would have loved to have some of Tiger Woods in his prime, the hell you do. Let me

take some, the hell you do. I think Jordan comes back. If he comes back and if he would get to 80% and it looks like he's really close now. Look out. Let me tell you something else. They talk about young kids and I'm a great fan. Trust me. But let me just say, if Tiger Woods is standing on the last tee at Bay Hill this Sunday with whoever, Todd Faleed, there's one rear end that's puckering

and it's not Tiger Woods, okay? That kind of cool. Still the intimidation factor, everybody says it's not there anymore? Yes, it can be very quick. Who was it to play with the first two rounds at LA this year? Was it Rory and Justin? And they commented about it. You know, they're like, this is a totally different world.

And we're talking of, you know, like, who's intimidating. Right. So, you know, you can have Jason Day, Dustin Johnson, and Jordan Speeth, and Ricky Fowler, you know, and all the other top great players that are playing the game today. But then all of a sudden, Tiger comes back and we witnessed what he's done the last two weeks.

And now he's here, you know, at Bay Hill, who's where he's won eight times. And, you know, look, the guy's an odds on favor, all of a sudden. I don't know where everybody knew, you know, if he's going to play again, at the president's cup on September. But he's got this, he's got to solve about him. Big, much like Nicholas. I mean, Nicholas Jack is still intimidating at 77 years old.

Yes he is. Tiger isn't intimidating, by the way, carries himself, by the way, plays the game by, you know, not a lot of talk on the golf course, there's not, hey, how the, how's the wife and kids? You know, there's not much of that. So everything about what Tiger does, which is where you should be. You know, I'm not trying to put you off, but I don't want to make you comfortable either.

You know, this is, this is, this is about me today, you know. So I, I, I love that. It's amazing how often the conversation gets turned back to Tiger. I haven't even asked a Tiger related question yet. We end up talking about it. Well, we were talking earlier before we came on. I mean, on my Twitter account about two or three weeks ago,

we were talking for two or three days on who the best pure ballstrucker was of all time, or a number of them. Trevino, Hogan, Monormon, George Bitson. Somebody asked me, okay, who are the guys that you know that we don't know about? Well, there's, you know, there's a Sam Sneed and guys who could control the spin, the trajectory, hit it in the middle of the club face every time.

You know, Steve Elkinton, George Newtson, who was fantastic Canadian, but it always comes back to Tiger. And he was part of the equation. I said, no, great player. Jack Nichols was the best, maybe. We don't put him in the best pure, small strikers. Damn good, obviously. But it always comes back to Tiger in this generation.

I'm sure the interview resurfaced in recent years when you interviewed Tiger in the 90s. I'm sure you get asked about this. You know what? I don't regret the first thing. Here's a kid who hasn't even played. He's finished his first round on tour as a professional. And I said, what do you expect?

He says, I expect, I expect to win every week, second sucks, and third, after I heard second sucks, I didn't hear what he said was third, and I said, you'll learn. Well, oh, yeah, they can't. Hell, somebody tweeted me the other day. You learned, didn't you? Well, yes, I learned. I did, but am I wrong in saying a kid who's only played one professional around his life,

talking like that, you know, really? I remember last year when I did Ferretty Show, you know, he does that 60-second blip, right? And like, word association. So of course, he throws out Jack or Tiger. And I'm like, look, I said, you know, when you go pure record, you know, you put Jack at the top of the list. And I was saying, so I said, and I said, I love Jack. I idolized Jack as a kid growing up, but I looked at the camera and I was saying so I said and I said I love Jack. I idolized Jack as a kid

growing up but I looked at the camera and I said Jack don't be mad at me. Tiger Woods is the greatest player I've ever seen. Barron. See Mark can say that because he saw Tiger behind the scenes. Well we saw I saw a little bit of we did a lot of TV and he played well on ABC but Mark saw it back at home, the shot to hit at home, day in and day out, whereas the people that play with Jack at home saw the same thing. But we only have so much of a picture there of Tiger Woods. He saw, and here's my take on it for today.

I would say that, like, I'll never forget, Mr. Palmer came over one day and we were on the range of aisle worth. And Tiger's, I had an old Cleveland classic persimmon head of driver in my bag just it was just messing around and Arnold drove up on the range and he's like how you guys doing you know because he always loved and we're hitting balls and I said Mr. Palmer watch this I said T pull that pull that persimmon driver out and Arnold saw and he's like, here we go, this is gonna be the real test. And he got up and just pummeled one out there

about 300, 295, and AP was like, I used to hit it like that. But I tell you, dude. I said to somebody one day, I really believe, in the time I spent around this kid, T-Dubs, if he had played all persimmon woods with the old irons, the old shafts, the old balls, and every other player on the PJ tour play, I think he would have won more tournaments than he actually won.

That's how much more skilled I thought he was than everybody else. You think the technology kind of neutralizes a little bit or helps people? Well, I think he had everything Jack had. And the only difference was that he had the mind. I mean, Jack Nicholas had the greatest mind. He had the greatest heart, right? And you know, you got to put those combination, those things together.

Tiger had all those things. And the thing that he might have had that was better than Jack was he had a better short game than Jack had. Yeah. Oh, I agree with everything you said. I, you know, first of all, you can't compare the two. That's right. That's the most good point. And in our game, most importantly, different equipment. Yeah. But if all of our listeners would Google Jack Nicholas in his day

and watch how hard he swung, two, these kids have nothing on Jack Nicholas. Right. Well, the topic is raging in golf today about equipment, distance, and all this. You guys have seen a lot of different eras in golf. Does the game look like a totally different sport to you than the game you guys played in the 80s? The athletes are different. Yeah. That's the big game is different. Yes. For a lot of different reasons. Some that go on talked about the athletes out there. When I came on tour, I was bigger than average. I'm a shrimp now.

Seriously. There's 64 and 65. Everyone on Ricky Fowler is incredible, because he's not. But he's fighting now. And we all thought we were pretty good athletes. I played sports all through high school and thought I could shoot free throws and the whole thing. But let me tell you something, they're better. They're sprinters now. We were kind of slow swinging marathoners.

Yeah, the sprinters now. Smooth. They have speed. I had a speed with leverage. They have speed with their core and their body have fast twitch muscles and and it's it's it's a different game. Are their bodies going to hold up as long as Sam's needs did? and it's a different game. Are their bodies gonna hold up as long as Sam's needs did? Well, we don't know, but it doesn't look like it. But the only time will tell, yeah, because the body can only handle so much the back and the hips, the neck. You know, and it's hard, you know, I mean, the statement,

we all saw what Jack said, and we all respect Jack very, very much and admire him and understand Kind of where he's coming from on on the issue that you know, they need to roll the ball back They need to do this thing, but he said 20% but my feeling is is is as long as things are legal Okay, and the USJ had set a standard you can't blame the manufacturers for trying to take it to the edge of the limit Which they've done they can't really and so now it's just like tweaking here and there But once again when you when you when you look at the athletes and you look at the size of them and you look at the conditioning that they're in I mean back in our era when we started you didn't go in the gym. I mean there was no working out. I mean yeah

Well, there was some Yes, there was some guys were a little bit leery of lifting weights. Oh, no that's true Yeah, and but now these guys are all pretty fit as you look at them And that they also are able to build golf swings around modern equipment now. Well, that's the technology Yeah, we had equipment that didn't very very much So we had to learn how to play the equipment. There was one or two balls out there. That was it.

Tyler's made a ball, not six different balls. Now you fit the equipment to the swing, completely opposite. And that's a good thing. That's great technology. And that's how they're maximizing their distance. But that's only the 001% of the population playing this game. The rest of the club members went, if you talk about rolling back the ball, who pays for this game, right?

Who pays, who swipes cards at MasterCard, the average player at the club, they don't want to hit it one inch shorter. So it will affect everybody if you somehow bring it back. Bifurcation. We want to buy those. I think that's the beauty of the game that we all play the same equipment, the same ball, you know, the guys on at the country club today can buy the same stuff that Dustin Johnson plays.

I think if you if you barfricate, that even sets up problems where do you stop it if you say the professional plays a certain ball We're not talking just the PGA tour. We're talking tours around the cut around the world Does everybody follow that we're talking mini tours? Then we filter on down to the colleges the AJGA do the which ball do they play? So there's two different balls if you're a great amateur and you're playing the the fastball the the long ball, and also you qualify for the US Open. Now you got to change balls. Think of it in terms of like that. The collateral damage could be devastating. Mm hmm. My argument against that would be they go to Mexico. The ball goes 15% further. Everybody's got to do it. Everyone's to adjust to caught a tour yeah it's cost to come yeah and they adjust for one week you don't hear

the players whine about the ball going to different doesn't think it usually does and I think I worry a bit for the future of where where are we going to put t-boxes well that's the argument yeah but the thing is but in the USGA and I I love them to death, they're my life, they're all of our life, the PGA 2 and the USGA. But the bit contradictory, because they say that, where does it go if it continues at 1% every year, but they're the ones building new teas, rearranging Chinatcock and Marion holes, they're redesigning golf courses, the old golf courses. So let's just play the

old golf course a way it used to be. If you want to challenge young players and the guys that hit the ball a long way like a Dustin Johnson or whoever, if you look at golf, you'd have to say some of the most interesting holes in golf are not a 540 yard par four. Some of the most interesting holes in golf are holes like number 12 at Augusta National, holes like number 10 at Riviera, where you have to force the player to make a decision, to make them think there's not a lot of thought process going on when you start to drive a build a golf course that's 7,600 yards long. These kids can play those courses 78 or what they they they have a difficult time understanding how to manage themself and play shots around a golf course like Marion

or like Brookline. And it's not their fault. It's the golf course is set up in the equipment. That's the way they learn how to play. Correct. If you did that, they would learn how to do it. You know, the two weeks after Aaron Hills, which they shot 16 under par last year on a 7800 yard golf course, the next two weeks on tour eight and 10 under par were shot. Did you have a issue with the set up at Aaron Hills? Do you think it was too easy?

They're lucky the wind didn't blow that hard. Yeah. Looking like I do sound like the old guy now. I like rough. The US open should be the toughest test. And it's not now. Yeah. They're giving them too much room off the tee and they're not growing the rough the way it used to be. Now that's the facts. The grains are the same. There's more runoff area. You know, they can defend anything with whole locations.

Marion, even par one, when even par wins Marion, the red flag goes up immediately. Okay, what did we do to the golf course? Because these guys are the best in the world. And they hit it long enough and they're good enough to are marrying they should demolish. So I just think if you take Chinacock and you make the fairways 25 yards wide, 23 yards wide, make them think around some of these old strategically great holes with the wind blow and throw some rough up. Farmer greens, throw the wind. The number two priority in the game of golf

is put in the fairway. Number one's putting. Number two is driving it and put in the fairway, which sets up the rest of the hole, your second shot. But that's not a priority anymore, especially in our national championship. Alms away. See, I think I liked Aaron Hills one because it was wide

and it gave a different type of like Brian Harmon's not the biggest hitter out there. It's a super long golf course, but it was fantastic that way. It promoted at least options on how to play a whole, right? If you narrow the fairways too much, you're just, everyone's got to play the whole and the course the exact same way. Whereas if the course is well designed and set up for where certain parts of the fairway give you a better angle and certain parts, certain pins you're going to get to a better

angle, I think that, you know, some of the bombers might give you a better angle and certain parts, certain pins you're going to get to a better angle. I think that, you know, some of the bombers might get blinded by, I got a super wide fairway here. I'm going to bomb driver. They end up on the left side of the fairway and can't get to a pin. Well, that's why Aaron Hills wasn't terrible last year. I mean, I actually, if the wind would have blown as Mark's blowing like it always does, as Mark said, the range, so it's off in the course of the day.

Absolutely. It was a perfect storm against the USGA. It would have been a pretty dog on good test. But it was so different than what we're used to seeing. No rough around the greens. All run off, 40, 50 yard wide fairways, literally 40 or 50. So once every blue moon, I don't mind a US open test like that to do something different. But it seems to be more than norm now.

Yeah. I thought the no rough around the greens was interesting as well. Your misses are sometimes punished worse. The ball's going to run out further into worse spots and picking shots off some of those liaises challenging. And I know that that's at least in the US opens where there's deep rough around the greens. Your ball still stays pretty close to the hole.

No, that's a good argument. Yeah, the liners was that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, when pain won there or when Ritef won there, it's that way, right? Chasey running it off and you have to produce different, you know, shots to where it has to use your imagination a little bit more. What do you guys think of, and especially, you know, when you won a 98 at Augusta, the golf course now looks completely different than it does then? What, I guess, do you guys like what Augusta has turned into and if not what would

you have done with obviously they needed to update it for modern technology. But I would say that I always felt like to win around Augusta National once again you had to have good iron play like Curtis pointed out earlier, but you have to have a good imagination. And that's why the European players have had a nice record at Augusta National, you know you're Sevis, your Jose Maria LaFabla, National, you know, your CVs, your Jose Maria LeFabel, your Langer's, your, your, your, Ian Wuznum, Sandy Lyle. I mean, the Europeans, if you look at it, that's what's always strange to me where take the open championship, which is link scoff, which is very foreign for most American players,

but yet the American players have done extremely well in the open championship on link scoff. Well, the Europeans have come over and I think when, you know, I understand why you had to lengthen it. I believe that, you know, who, uh, Billy, no, who do you start? Who do you drive? So the chairman, you know, felt like he wanted driving to be more important part of the game. I would tell you once again, like I played, I'm when they first made the big change.

Uh, Tiger and I went up and played in November and When you resist this was like in 2000 oh, too was when they lengthened it. Yeah, so it was in So 2000 and two in the fall after they opened the colors in the fall We went up and played and who do Johnson came out in the cart and watched Tiger and I play and we got done And we he goes I want to meet you guys up in the cart and watch Tiger and I play and we got done and we he goes I want to meet you guys up in the championship and have lunch with you guys in the Champions Lakhram so we go up there and who he came in and he goes okay what do you think and then of course Tiger's like okay I'm oh you go first I'm like well I said mr. Johnson to be honest with you I was lucky as hell to make the putt

on the 18th hole I said because that's a completely different golf course out there now and then he looked at Tiger he he goes, what do you think Tiger? He goes, I absolutely love it. And you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a big golf course now. It really is. But you know, last year was exciting. You know, I think people always and Curtis knows he played tons of master's tournaments that the roars around Augusta National in the back nine on a Saturday afternoon or a Sunday afternoon were always special. It's nothing like it in the game. Very very special. And I said to Mr. Johnston that day, I said, you know, the only thing I understand I understand making it longer because the kids hit it so far, you want to fly it over the bunkers on 18. I get that. I said, but what I don't

understand is I said, if you want to put the fear in a guy like Tiger Woods or Phil Nicholson or VJ because they were the three kind of long hitters at the time I said to me you need to speed the course up and when you grow a secondary cut a rough out there that slows the course down so that helps them not not just lengthening it but you've really helped them because you've slowed the course down because anytime a golf course plays faster where your ball I said it would be better if you just made the fairway and brought the pine needles out. So your ball is chasing into those trees.

And when it gets in the trees, everybody's on the same game. You can't, you know, you can't cut down a tree out there with your golf ball. And we get back to driving the golf ball being the second most important priority, and it really isn't at Augusta. Or it's more so now that it used to be. But you still I can't help it. You got

to put the ball in the fairway this is a way it's always been and it's not now. It's changed. Even on tours changed. Yeah. I think it my issue with it is the course is very different than what Bobby Jones now is from McKenzie had set it out to be and that they wanted this super wide to promote playing angles, playing the proper angles, and you read about that book, and I think it was that all the way up until about 99 when they started planning trees

and bringing in the second cut, and then of course, LinkedIning it, and I think a lot of those holes kind of lost the character of their original design, like especially seven, 11. Oh, and you're right there. Yeah, seven-11. Yeah. 17, 5 is going to completely change with the new T.

Yeah, it's interesting because like 7, I remember playing with the kid in early 2000s before they actually lengthened it. And I said to him one day, we were all playing a prax front and I said, you know, Tiger, I don't understand why you just don't stand up here and hit drive-off. Right. Just drive it up there and you got don't stand up here and hit driver off. It's driving up there and you got an ADR shot. And you go, I've always hit like two and three irons. I said, I understand that.

But I'm just trying to tell you that actually when you get far enough up there, the trees kind of stopped. And so you know what, that week he hit driver. He wrote that in his book too. He birded three out. He birded three out. He birded the hole, the driver off the net.

Think about how exciting and fun that hole would be now with how a lot of people hit it long ways. That would be one of the greatest drivable short par fours in the world because around the green it's so penal. Right. Yeah. I mean, when you lay up,

when Tiger lays up, now he's playing with in my game, you know, now I have a chance. But that's true over a course of a year, but seven could be the grandest short part for in the world. Yeah. And now they play off a downslope too. Oh, I say.

It was the hardest non-iron shot or wedge shot you ever have on to. Uphill, small green, hard green, downhill lie, and you know if you miss the green, par is not part of the picture. Right. Yeah, that's what I think. I think my criticism is a lot of the holes have been changed, I think, in an effort to protect par. And I think par just in general can be a bit overrated.

I don't know if I agree with that protect par. I think protect the length. Yeah. Protect the length. They want the players of Yeah. Protect the length they want. They want the players of today to hit the same clubs into the first hole that we hit. Well, I don't know if that's the case. They're better, they're longer, they're stronger. They should have shorter shots, but to protect a little bit the golf course, but the length of the golf course away used to be. I think the most interesting holes or half-par

holes is in general. I love a hole that maybe should be a birdie hole and maybe, or I guess now it is a half-par hole overpar and then it's almost like a place like a par-five and that's one of the more difficult holes in the front but we could get deep lost in the mix on this but we've taken up enough of you guys time. I really appreciate it. This was super fun here in stories from you guys and everything.

So Curtis, Mark, thank you for taking the time. Love to do it again sometime. Thanks for having us on. Thanks for having us on this class. Thanks. Beat a right club today. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most.