No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 129: Bones

Episode Date: March 28, 2018

In Part I of our Masters preview, we welcome back Jim “Bones” Mackay to talk in detail about his days as Phil Mickelson’s caddie. We go into great detail with some amazing stories about Phil’s... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 129: Bones appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, guys, I am super pumped for you guys to hear this episode with bones. There's not maybe not anybody out there that's been a long further ride. That's not a player. They can speak to more historical moments in recent masters history than this guy. It's kind of kicking off our masters preview coverage. There's going to be a lot more to come. I don't want to name the specifics yet in case you have it falls through, but hoping to get some player perspectives as well as some architecture perspectives here in the coming days. So, super excited about that. On that note, let's talk about Callaway Live.

They're back with season four. They're kicking off in a big way with the Master's champ, Sergio Garcia on this week's show. So go over to CallawayGolf.com slash Callaway Live. Also on Apple TV, you can search for Callaway Live, or I'm sorry, Callaway TV in the App Store. You can watch the full episode. Sergio shares some interesting insights from his master's win. Why he chose to switch to Callaway. It's not not every year that the defending master's champ makes an equipment change.

And he also plays the newlywed game with his wife, Angela. Check it out now. Tune in every Tuesday night, 6 p.m. Pacific for Callaway live. Upcoming guests include Zander Shoffley, Mike Wann, as well as Bill Simmons. That's CallowayGolf.com slash Calloway Live. Let's get to bones. Let's get the right club. Be the right club today.

Yes! That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. All right ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. My main man he's back it's been too long bones how we doing. Doing great Chris man, he's back. It's been too long. Bones, how are we doing? Doing great Chris. Thanks for having me back. Thank you for coming back. When was the last time that last year that the Masters occurred that you did not caddy at it? I think it was 1994.

I was counting for Phil and he broke both of his legs in a skiing accident and he did not play. He did it the first week of the Florida swing and came back at colonial something like that. So he missed the masters and it was not particularly easy. Are you, and we'll get to the map. We got a million masters questions to ask you and we'll get to that. But so far, the last time we talked to you, you were still on Phil's bag.

I want to know, how are you enjoying your role so far with NBC and what's that transition been like so far? Yeah, I'm enjoying it a lot. It's been great. It's fun and interesting to do something different for the first time in almost 30 years. And I've enjoyed it. It's a lot of work.

It's a lot to learn. And it's one of those businesses where you really don't learn it unless you kind of make a mistake. And then you learn from your mistakes you know pretty quickly hopefully so I'm trying to get better at it and get more comfortable and learn the ins and outs but it's been a great experience. We had made some we commented that during the WGC in Mexico we were I guess I do understand it but you were you were not following Phil's group during that final round and for his first win in five years Was there a reasoning behind that from a production standpoint? Well, I think that the thing that the we want to be cognizant of and granted that was obviously a term of being played in the different country

But you know, we want it to be a long enough period of time where you you know, it's less likely or it's not going to happen where by anybody yells anything out, you know. I went out and covered a group this year at the Palm Springs event and it was the group behind Phil. And there were still a couple of people yelling things relative to, you know, supportive of me, supportive of Phil, whatever, or you know, Phil's over there or here's bones or whatever. And we just don't want that. And we certainly don't want that for fill, because, you know, he's got a job to do out there as do I, but he's a player.

And he's the most important thing going on out there. And the last thing I want to do is to bring any kind of unnecessary attention to him, or the fact that I'm out there. I figured it was something along those lines. So that does make sense, but I know the question was being asked, so it's good to hear the reasoning behind it. So I want to know about your kind of, before you caddyed in your first masters,

were there any caddies out there that kind of took you under their wing or gave you some pointers before you showed up or as you arrived? Not really. I was lucky before my first masters, and that I was cadding for Larry Mies in 90 and 91 there that I caddy for a guy that was very detail oriented that had you know he and knew a lot about the course. He had grown up in the Augusta Georgia area, knew a lot

about it, knew a lot of things, knew how he wanted to play the course. And I'll be honest with you, it's you know, I've gone there so much since 1990 and I learned something new about the golf course last year during one particular win that was blowing on the first hole. So you never stop learning and you acquire as much knowledge as you can, you store it away, you're never going to forget it. And anyway, but early on, I was lucky to work for a guy that shared a lot with me. What was the thing you learned last year on the first hole?

I learned that when the wind is hard left to right and in on one, which is often the case, I can't tell you off the head, off the top of my head what direction that is, but when it's hard in, left to right on one, that if you drive it in the fairway on two, you end up getting help on your second shot that you don't anticipate. So, was that planned? No, it was just a shot, it was just a shot was hit, and I remember watching it,

thinking that shot's getting help. And then the wind ended blowing that direction three of the four days. So, we went with the help later in the wake and it worked. And it was just number 206 things that I've learned at Augusta National that I'll never forget. So something as silly as that, as a caddy, you're just doing it.

You can't have saved your player a shot out there. And that was just something that we picked up on. All right, let's see if we can uncover the other 205 here because that's already fascinating to me. Let's say you're counting for somebody playing in the Masters for the first time, like a rookie this year, what's something they need to know before arriving or something that you would tell them

right off the bat about the golf course. Well, I would certainly pre-warn them that they have the option at a gust of changing the course radically overnight. Now, it hasn't happened as much here lately, as it did back in the early 2000s, but there was a stretch of years where you would be out there on Tuesday and Wednesday and you'd play in the Part Three

and you'd think you were ready for action on Thursday and you'd get out there on Thursday and you'd be stunned as to How much faster the greens were in 24 hours or maybe, you know, it was tougher to chip around the greens because they cut the grass a little bit lower Just to kind of expect the unexpected, but they do have the ability to guess the national to change the course radically more So I think in any golf course you could ever go to. So that would be one thing for sure. Is it, I mean, so a lot of guys take trips to play the course well in advance of the tournament.

Is that kind of a futile experiment as far as because the course can play so different from a from a firmness standpoint and whatnot. I mean, what when you go in advance of the tournament, what are you looking to accomplish? I think you're certainly, you're reassuring what your game plan is because there's so many different ways to play holes in the play hole locations out there. I think you're looking for certainly changes in the course

because as we all know, and let me go and record saying, I'm the biggest agust, agust a national fan there is, the members, the tournament itself, I love everything about it. But you know, that being said, you can go there, whether it's in the last 20 years, 10 years, five years, and there are changes made to the course that they don't necessarily publicize. I think that they said that they tend to redo two greens a year there and they put them back together, you know, you know, I

Identically, but I remember a couple years ago them, you know, saying okay that the following changes were made, you know since last year's event and we went over to the 13th hole in that little low area left and behind that green wasn't nearly as low as it had been before Well everybody agreed about it. You asked your caddy friends, your player notices it, you know, what have you and you realize that a change has been made that hasn't necessarily been publicized and you make the adjustment based on that. Wow. Do you, I mean, we're going to get to the winning years here because there's

I have a million questions to ask you about those, but this stretch that Phil had leading up to his first year in 2000, his first win in 2004, what do you remember most from that stretch from 99 to 2003 in those agonizing close calls? I think you had three straight, third place, third place finishes leading up to 04. Yeah, that sounds right. I, it was just, you wanna win so badly.

And, and I was, I lived a long, big part of my life in the state of Georgia. So I wanted to, I wanted it for Phil and I wanted to see him when, you know, that much more just because of that, because it is just such an iconic event and, and you love it and you go there a year after year, and you know that it's a course, you know, that if every single PGA tour event was played at Augusta National Phil would have 150 wins or something like that you know. It's just a great great place for him. But it was tough but you figured it was going to happen and it was just a matter of getting

a break here and there and continuing to play at Gagofa. Remember one year he played with Greg Norman in the first round. It was early in his career. I must say 95, 96. And he shot 65, or I think it was 65 the first round. And I just remember thinking, man, this guy talking about Philkin really, really played this course. And he just put on an absolute clinic out there.

And so you wanted to happen, you know, we were patient. And you know, certainly Mike, we're winning in 2003, a left hand right, you know, I was like, oh my gosh, another lefty one there before filled it. His greater player as Mike was and is. But you had to be patient and just wait for things to fall in place. Was there a, okay, any kind of shift from a maturity standpoint, strategy standpoint or anything in advance of 2004 that allowed him to get over the hump or was it just his time?

Now he certainly started becoming much more efficient inside of 160 yards. He did these towel drills where he would throw towels down in like 10 or 15 yard increments and he got really really sharp with the scoring clubs and that that certainly helped. That had happened kind of between the tournaments in 0-3 and 0-4. So that was a factor in certainly playing. He birdied 12 on Sunday in 0-4. And just through the ball down, and it was basically 160 yards shot and hit an eight iron to 12 feet and made the pot, but having that kind of under that kind of pressure and leading the tournament,

and that actually not leading the tournament, but trying to catch Ernie L's and needing a two to kind of jumpstart his final round, being sharp with those kinds of numbers was huge in terms of that win, that first win. We are actually gonna rewatch the 2004 Masters tonight and we're gonna do a live broadcast on Periscope with the listeners and followers.

So people are going to be very fat, they're going to open up this podcast on Wednesday morning after having done that. And be very excited to hear these stories. But in advance of us rewatching this, what's something about that day that you'd say maybe not a lot of people remember or are even aware of? Well, if I, if you don't mind, I'd like to tell a story about something that happened on, I think on Friday. Of course.

You know, the thing that was frustrating at that point about not winning majors was, was that, you know, you would hear Tigre say, and I remember DuVal saying it, you know, to, but Tigre especially, the win the major, two things have to happen. You have to play really, really well and you have to get lucky. And I don't care who you are or how good you are. Any tournament won on the PGA tour. You're going to, the guy that wins the tournaments can look back on that week and think of a couple of things that happened that were just, you know, crazy good breaks that kind of keep your momentum going. and you start thinking,

man, this could be my week and fill on Friday that week, drove it in the 13th fairway and had hit a four iron into the back right pin there on 13 and overcooked his draw and the ball overdrew, hit on the right side of the green and the momentum of it carried it into race creek and, you know, big groan from the patrons that are up there by the greens, so we know it's wet. And we walked the 250 and 20 yards up there to where it was. And you know, this gets back to the changes in the course.

You know, but you know, raised creek now is just nothing but solid water. But back then, there were patches of turf in the middle of this creek. And there was one about the size of a manhole cover in the middle of the creek and this ball was sitting on it. It was an island unto itself in the middle of this creek, perfectly manicured, dream grass, and the ball was sitting up on it so that the left hander could play a shot perfectly off of it. And I swear to you, he could hit driver

out of this wire. It was so good. And he damn near chipped it in for Eagle. He chipped it in in May 4 and when he went on to win the tournament a couple of days later we we both talked about how we didn't say it. We didn't verbalize the time. Hey this might be the week you know to get an incredibly good break like that and pick up potentially a shot shot and a half. It was that extra kick in the pants you needed to maybe go on and win. Before that final round in 2004, did the moment or did the scenario feel any different to you than any of his previous close calls? That's a good question. What was tough was that he shot 38 on the front nine. He didn't play that badly. I just remember he bogeyed five and there was another bogey and there's

somewhere I can't remember if there was a birdie or not, but there were two or three bogeys on the front and we were behind the eight ball and Ernie was making this huge charge which included making eagle on eight. And I think Ernie was in the group in front of us. I believe because I do remember, you know, being on, being on, uh, 18 and waiting for Ernie to hit an iron shot into 8 and hearing this huge roar and the ball had ended up rolling up there to 6-8 feet for Eagle and he made it. And of course at that, Ernie had won multiple majors. And he was, you know, as good a player, you know, other than Tiger as anybody in the game. And it was like, oh boy, here we go.

And Phil knew as he made the turn there on Sunday, he was not going to win that tournament, unless he did something extraordinary on the back. I mean, he ended up shooting 31 and birding five at the last seven, which is pretty extraordinary, but it was, you know, when we were out there on that front nine, it was tough sledding. And, you know, you got all these people out there. Phil is very, very popular in the state of Georgia. He won this big junior event. There are a number of times. He won the Atlanta tournament a number of times.

And he won the tour championship a couple of times, I think. And so folks there liked him and people, the masters wanted him to win. And when you're out there and you're getting behind the 8 ball early on Sunday, it's tough. So that 12th hole that you mentioned, as you said, he was too over for the day going into that 12th hole. I want to know kind of from your your caddy perspective, that 12th hole, I think we can we can

agree sets up pretty well for a left handed player in that, you know, for a right hander, if you, you know, when you miss right, typically that means you miss short, whereas for a left hander, if you miss right, that may mean you pulled it a little bit and you miss longer. What was Phil's strategy or what is, I guess you could say, what is Phil's strategy on that whole knowing, does he know that he has an advantage on the field with that back right pin position? Well, I think he knows that Augusta National,

this is my opinion, I certainly can't speak for him, but Augusta National is the greatest left handed course ever. I think that's why Phil's done what he's done, you know, Phil's probably gonna win that term again. Bob has got a good chance at anybody. Mike, we're is one the tournament. There are several crucial t-shirts there that are easier for lefties than they are for righties and you've hit the nail on the head. 12 is probably the prime example. Certainly to those right pins, you could get back to the t-shirts on 10 and 13. It's much easier to hit a big slice off the tee as a lefty on those

Dog leg left especially on 13 than it is to hit a draw, right? So so those those shots those shots are are playing the lefty's hands, but to your point Yeah, a guy like Phil it is gonna absolutely know that the way that green shape is on 12 is a better shape for him than it is for the righties in the field. So had he that birdie putt that he lined up from behind the hole, had he had that putt in prior years, I mean he drained it, he fist pumped and that's really the thing that kicked him off, did he, and we've talked I think in the past about how you don't read putts at Augusta, you learn the breaks, is that that a put that he had experience with and he knew exactly what the read was or what was the conversation like before that put?

Yeah, absolutely he said later on he said I'd missed that putt high and I missed it low So I absolutely knew the read and you know Certainly where it comes to Augusta National I think part of the reason that Phil's had success there, with three wins and Tigers won as much as he had is because you're talking about two guys with amazing memories. And they can recall a putt from the 90s that did XYZ. That's why I think Tigers won as many times

at Bay Hill as he has and Torrey Pines as he has and Phil in the same respect as multiple wins on a handful of courses because these guys remember things from past years and they apply them going forward. And if I was a young player today that looked like I was about to play in the next 15 or 20 Masters, I'd be riding absolutely everything down I possibly could because you know it's the one major that's going to go back there a year after year. And so yes, Phil had had that pup before. He missed it a couple of times and I think you knew when that thing was halfway there

it was going down. So he follows it with a two-putt birdie on 13 and then on 14, he almost jars it from the fairway. How well could you see the ball from the fairway? Do you remember trying to figure out if that ball was actually going in the hole? It was the crowd reaction. It was a kind of a... he had started hitting these three-quarter shots earlier that year and it was a three-quarter nine yardage but it was the first shot we played that day where we were like, okay, let's

start factoring adrenaline. And so I remember the discussion went from being a three quarter nine to, you know, can we get wedge there? And the coolest thing happened to that bird, it's that birdie pin on, on 14 that you see guys, you know, hit the ball so close to. And the thing about that hole is, yeah, you can hit it a foot there, but if you roll two or three yards past the hole

and the ball gets up, hung up in the fringe, it's literally a putt from 12 feet where you putt with your back to the hole because it has this viciously crazy break. And so we were having this discussion in the fairway about, you know, why we shouldn't hit the nine and we started talking about the ball getting up open the fringe and we were playing with Demarco and Chris Demarco hits this shot right at the flag that releases a little harder

he wanted to and it gets caught up in the back fringe and we're like, yeah, like that. You know, so it was this kind of ball. We're like, okay, well, you know, the, you know, the golfing gods are telling us something here. We just talked about how this can happen. It happened to DeMarco. We made the adjustment, went down to Wedge, and he hit it to six inches. God, it's amazing memory. Did the shots not start to like blend together for you after all these years?

So, as many times as you've been around that course, we can do this when I'm 85 if you want. I think I'll still remember it. Like Thursday through Sunday, or do the Sunday ones are they that much more memorable? No, I think that you certainly, you know, Sunday of your first, you know, the first Masters one that your player has,

you know, is gonna stand out, but it's crazy. The stuff is a caddy that you remember. It's, it'll drive you nuts almost. So Phil, he shoots 31 on the back, but didn't birdie 15. Now you guys get to 16. I'm not positive if you were trailing at this point, but you knew you needed at least one birdie coming in.

Take me through the shot on 16, knowing that his adrenaline level has to be just the maximum amount that it can be at. With that pin position, again, it's the same Sunday pin. What's your guys' approach to the T-shot on 16 in that situation? Well, Phil, it was a secret there for a bit and then Phil ended up kind of talking about it in an interview after the fact. So, he's a real student of the game and I'd like to think to a large degree I am too. And I had noticed if you go back over the years of these great little masters movies that

come out that we have all watched on the golf channel and elsewhere that show the recaps of the tournaments that there were guys on a number of occasions that hit shots on 16 that they just absolutely pose over, and the ball comes down, 25, 30 feet long, and they just seem shocked. And when that happens to a tour player, usually when they've hit something to five feet, they kind of know it when the ball's in the air,

they have a feel for the yards, they hit the shot, they know how they hit it, and when something comes down there, they're genuinely shocked. Well, you got to kind of take note of that. And I think it had happened to Davis one year, I think it had to do Val one year. And it might even have happened to Ernie that very day. I don't know. And so Phil and I had talked about it and about how, you know, we were kind of developing this theory there on 16 that no matter what the situation

when you get, you know, in the hunter, when you get that master's adrenaline going, if you get between clubs, you go with the lesser club, and even if you're not between clubs, it just plays a half club short, and it's a very unique piece of land, Chris, and I know you've been there, and when you're out there at the masters,

whether you're in 40th place on Thursday or whether or not you're leading on Sunday, there are thousands of people around that whole. And it's in something of a valley. There's several thousand people left and behind the green, and there's people right. And it's, I don't know what it is, but it's a very, very low point in the course. We started wondering if maybe, you know, what was going on here with the topography and the number of people maybe it was affecting the air in a sense that the ball was going to go further. And I'm not trying to sound like some kind of scientist here.

We're just trying to figure out why are guys hitting these shots that they pose over that are going along. And so Phil doesn't birdie 15. He now is one back and he needs to make one more to tie Ernie who's ahead of us. And we walked over to the 16th and Phil says, let's plug it in. Let's go with the theory. And I can't off the top of my head remember the yard, but it was probably something like 186, which is an absolute normal good in those days, seven iron. And he had eight. And so we said, you know what, let's just hit the hard eight and take our chances here. And he ripped an eight. And we really didn't know at that point

where it was coming down, but it came down 18 feet right under the hole, which is a great spot to be, because you would literally, and I'm not exaggerating here, you would rather have 18 feet short of the hole on 16 of that Sunday pinned and have five feet behind it. It is anything behind that hole is the hardest, most maybe brutal putt in golf that I've ever seen. You can't make it, and you'll see guys three putt from 10 feet there,

regularly. And so, you know, this ball came down 18 feet short, short, sure enough it had gotten much much further than we would have thought an eight iron would go. And he made it. And it was a cool moment because you know there he's now tied fully in the master's. I'm over there you want to jump out of your skin but you're trying to look as cool as you can. And he came over and he grabbed he and he grabbed the putter end of the club, the club end of the putter, and it hit me really hard in the rear end with the putter grip and said, let's make one more. It was a really cool moment. All my moments with Phil, it was probably a top 10.

Even though we didn't know at that point yet what the future held in terms of the next couple of holes for him to make that too for the theory to work and for him to say what he said. He didn't say it. The crowd was going bananas. He had to yell it in my ear, but it was a cool moment. And what do you remember about that put, too, is that just an experience put that you guys have had before and knew the break exactly? Yeah, I'm not reading any putts at Augusta, just again, back to, I mean, that's not true.

I guess occasionally a Phil gets something that he's just not sure of. But again, because of his memory, because the number of times he's played there, it's rare that I'm gonna read a pot there. And so it was just a pot that breaks quite a bit to the left at the end and he made it right in the middle. So coming up 18, you guys know you need birdie.

I mean, in that situation is Phil talkative? Does he make a joke? Does he say something to you to pump himself up? What is, how does he handle that situation with you or is it just like every other hole? Well, until I saw the coverage, the term of coverage later on, I didn't realize because I guess I don't remember, I was probably walking ahead of him, because again, you're so jacked up,

you wanna get out there and triple check your yardage and start thinking about what you're gonna say to your player, when he says to you, what do you like? But he was smiling the whole way up. I mean, there he was, tied to the lead in the master, as he hit the longest three wood, you could ever hit, it's like 288 yards and that tee, that first fairway bunker and we were you know so driver really wasn't an

option. We were not going to put him in that sand and you know he said you know can I get three woods that bunker and you know we're like not in a million years and he literally hit it a yard short of it. He was just so jacked up and and then you know we got out there and know, it's straight up the hill there. And it was like, you know, 172 playing, you know, 180. And again, you're dealing with adrenaline. He's all fired up. We talked about it.

It was just a perfect, good, hard-cut, eight-iron. And, you know, he hit the shot. And the thing about it is you know that ball I'm so glad he flushed it as much as he did because again you're pulling clubs to try and make a three he's not trying to make a four there and that ball in terms of carrying the false front probably only carried it by a few feet but again fortunately we got that just right and it you know released to where it did behind the hole but he wasn't playing

20, 25 feet right like a lot of guys do and a lot of guys have a success. O'Meara went on to make that putt to be Fred in 98, but he took it right at the flag. It never left the pin and then it got really interesting after that in terms of the read because of the Demarco situation. Yeah. Demarco hits his approach or chip right behind Phil's ball and gets Phil even cracks a smile and looks at him and knows he's going to get the perfect read. So was there anything major learned in that read, do you think, or was that another situation where you kind of have a pretty good idea of how that putts going to break?

No, there was a big learn there. I think the putt broke definitively more than Phil thought. I think he said that on the record saying that the Marcos putt was incredibly instrumental in the win and what happened there in 18 green because I think Phil had an idea what he was going to play it. He saw DeMarcos putt fall off the table to the left there and Phil adjusted and just snuck it in the left side there. So we all know what happens next. He makes the plot.

You come running at him and you say something in his ear. You can see it on the broadcast. You hug him and say something. Do you remember what you said? I think I said you did it. OK. I think that after all that stuff and all the major stuff, and how tough it was and how tough 2003 was for him

to come out and win the first tournament of 2004. I remember one of the golf publications earlier that year had put out their predictions as to where they thought, you know, players were going to finish that year on the money list. And I remember a big golf publication had Philip 31. And the point was, this guy is not even going to the tour championship and I thought to myself boy Oh boy, I said that's I thought that's you know

That's pretty disrespectful in a sense this guy's been a great player now for a number of years and granted He hasn't won a major yet, but he's he's certainly shown up and played well a lot and won a lot of tournaments for a guy his age and I just I remember running into the guy that wrote the article, and just looking at him a little bit sideways, and then for Phil to go on there, and when the tournament and to establish himself as one of the great players in the game and going on to be one of the greatest

that ever played the game was pretty cool. Yeah, I mean, that moment, I was in high school, and I even understood the I, that moment, I remember, I was in high school and I even understood, I think I understood the nature of that moment or how the, the brevity of that moment, I guess, because I mean, it was, it was intense and I still think rewatching it, the noise of that day and that back nine charge. I can't remember in my lifetime, they're being a louder one. Is that the case for you? Yeah, it was, it was, it was incredible. It was, you know, almost make your ears ring. And my wife was beyond nine months pregnant. And I literally had to run home, you know,

for the birth of my first, our first child, our son Oliver. And so there was a lot going on. And I will tell you, it was, I still had a couple of weeks off after that and didn't play again until New Orleans. So he goes to New Orleans. I don't think he even played a practice round but he showed up and you're playing in the program on Wednesday and Phil's an early program guy typically and so you're T and off at 6.50 and you're

out there and there's a guy you know a couple of volunteers and the guy making the announcements and that's about it and you stand there and the guy goes next on the tee the 2004 Masters Champion Philkelsen, and it was such a cool thing to hear, and something you've been aching to hear for some of the years, Phil Asthm if he would say it again. And so, Phil backed off his tee shot and got introduced twice at the next tournament we played at, so that was a cool moment. Oh, that's cool. So, 2006, you guys, you come back to the golf course and it has changed pretty dramatically.

They lengthened a bunch, I think six holes. And what do you remember about the first time you guys saw it? Did you think this is even better thing for us or this hurt us a bit? Or what was your first thought when you saw the new golf course? Well, Phil had won the previous week by 13. So Atlanta was the week before and I guess we had probably gone to Augusta National before that, but we had heard some changes were going to be made. They were going to put trees right on 11. They were going to lengthen the 7th hole and the other things

they did. I guess 17 changed also, but it was shocking how hard it was, and especially the 7th hole. The 7th know, a very, very small green from front to back, literally only maybe ten, that's not true. I'd say 12 to 15 paces and I do remember one day in 2006, early in the tournament, Phil hit the fairway there and we had five iron into the green and we're used to hitting nine iron wedges, sand wedges in there. And the course was playing so hard that we stood out there in the fairway, and Phil and I agreed that the only way to make par on the whole, I think, was windy, tough conditions,

was we intentionally hit the ball over the green into the gallery to set up our angle on our third shot to get up and now for four which he did. But it was, I mean guys, it was, guys were like blown away by how hard it had gotten in a very short period of time and it was like, oh my gosh, this is a whole new era here. And I guess that was the hoodie Johnson era. And it was like, you know, batting down the hatches there because this place has just gotten really, really hard. And Phil won at seven under, I think year and then the next year, Zach Johnson won at 1 over. I think that they were, you know, there were a lot of changes in that time period and it,

I think there was, was that the year there was some weather because you finished the third round on that Sunday morning, is that right? There was definitely some weather, yes. We had to finish some golf on Sunday morning and then then it got a funny game. And my closest friend, who's a caddy, is Joe Lakava, who now caddies for Tiger Woods. But he caddy for years and years are Fred Couples. And I just remember how that whole thing kind of lined up that week.

And Fred is a great player who is unlucky, in my opinion, only to win one master's and also very unlucky to be dealt the card that he was dealt in terms of his health and his back and whatnot. There's no telling what he might have done that he played with a good back his entire career. But we got paired with him on Sunday. And it was a beautiful, beautiful Sunday and Augusta, 70 degrees and sunny and virtually no wind. And it was a real cool experience to be out there for four or five hours

with him. So there were a ton of fireworks on the front nine filled actually birdied seven on that Sunday and eight and then on 13 he pushed his drive a little. Do you guys do you remember the conversation between you two while the ball was in the air? Well, if you pushed it it was probably get up. You know, please please Lord, I mean something like, it was probably get up. You know, please, please Lord, I mean, something like that. Go ahead. You got. I just, I literally just watched it. So you're yelling at it. Get out there. Get out there. Oh, yeah. While it's still in the air, he goes, I hit it. Like he, he, he wasn't worried about it

cutting the quarter, but it's, yeah, it's so funny how, you know, he is, he's calming you down while the ball was in the air and how you thought it was potentially in trouble. So, yeah, so it was a very pronounced slice there. And the ball probably only has to go about 240, 50 yards, you know, to get around the dog leg. But, you know, again, for a lefty like Bob or Phil, you're hitting such a pronounced slice that yeah, it's easy to, you know, not that tough to hit a slice, but you got to make sure you cover your yards before the ball actually does start slicing. And so he makes birdie there.

It's in the fairway easily. And then he gets pin high on 15 into and chips up, actually, lips out his chip. And he's got about a 10, 12 footer maybe for birdie. He sinks it. And do you remember what he said to you or what happened to you after that putt? No, let me hear it.

Well, I mean, he comes right up to you. He clearly like tries to get your attention and says great read. to you after that putt now let me hear it well i mean he comes right after you clearly like tries to get your attention and says great read so was that a putt that you chimed in on yeah that i mean it that's cool i mean that's that's cool to hear um yeah i i now that you say that i do i do kind of remember it was funny the previous whole not to go backwards but the previous whole, not to go backwards, but the previous hole threaded it to three feet on 14 and had three potted and It had just kind of shook up the whole day because they have been going head to head and back and forth and Now it was Phil's tournament to win it felt like and so I do remember I do remember getting called in for the read there

Yeah, and the ball I think going a little to the right Phil wanted some some affirmation on the read, and I think it was a left-edge pot and he made it, yeah. So, now you go to 16 in a very different situation than in 04. You're leading by 4. Now do you approach that tee shot any differently? Do you try to play that shot safer? Because he ended up going right at the flag, but was that the intention? I think that was the intention, because back in those days,

and of course, this is the error when the course played its hardest, if you had that left pin on 16 and you hit it up on the right shoulder of the green up top, so to speak, you were going to have 10 or 15 feet for par. And that's kind of changed now, I think, with the softening of the course where you're able now to get that put a little bit closer, but back then, it was almost a guaranteed three-putt. And so I think Phil's, you know, take on that whole was, you know what, I got to take

it right at it. And if you think about it too, and he makes a very good point about this, it's a really tough hole. You know, as many great shots as there are for lefties, their 16 is not one of them, because when a lefty tees up his bowl and 16, waggles and looks at the hole, every time they look up to look up at the pin, you see water. But when a righty does it, you see green grass.

So that hole visually kind of messes with your head as a left hander. And so I think Phil's like, you know what? I've got to hit a shot here, and I'm just going to take it right out of the last thing I want to do is hit a shot where I'm looking and end up having 45 feet for birdie. So he goes on to win in 06 rather comfortably,

and then zoom in ahead to 2010. You guys are one shot back going into the final round, but this year was just such a unique year from Phil from a family perspective. What was the lead up like going into that year with everything Phil had going on with Amy's cancer diagnosis? Well, it was difficult to say the least. It was, you know, golf wasn't obviously the most important thing by any stretch. And it was just a question of, without getting into too much detail,

taking care of the situation as much as I could and looking after, you know, making sure I was doing everything I could for Phil. And, you know, just golf, it was secondary, even though for Phil it was a release and a place to get away to from the other things he had going on in his life. That was a remarkable week for so many reasons.

Obviously, there was a lot going on. If I'm not mistaken, I think I may have said this to you at some point over at dinner somewhere. Phil played as bad as I've ever seen him play the week before in Houston. I think he made the cut, but it just wasn't there and he wasn't clicking and there were a million reasons why. He had a lot on his mind to say the least and for him to go from that and from there to where he got to in 2010. And it was mind mind boggling. I mean it's a real credit to him and his backbone that he was able to win that way. It's amazing to rewatch these three masters wins

you know kind of consecutively like I just I skipped around some of the shots but again he takes it right over the flag on 12. He's got pretty much the same putt. I mean assuming at this point there's no conversation that needs to be had about that putt. Gosh, no. Yeah. All I need to do is make sure I clean the ball properly when he gives it to me and he get the heck out of the way. So he buries it, it gets the 13, hits his drive in the pine straw. It's better than I remember the broadcasts as far as them kind of getting quiet and letting the caddy and player conversation happen and the amount of the things that you guys went through. Was that a quick conversation between you and Phil regarding going for that green on 13 or was that longer drawn out that maybe the cameras didn't catch?

Yeah, it was, I guess what it was, Chris, was that you know, normally you want, you know, Phil's a very technical guy and if he's got a question, certainly as a caddy, you know, Phil's a very technical guy, and if he's got a question, certainly as a caddy, you're going to answer it. And people over the years have enjoyed, I think, conversations between player and caddy and maybe between Phil and I have gone on for, you know, 10 or 15 seconds or whatever. The weird thing about this was it took place over a lengthy period of time because we were waiting so long for the green to clear. And so when we got up there and Phil had this 206 yards that he had to the whole,

we were waiting and waiting for KJ Choi and whoever he was playing to leave the green and I think KJ was leading at that point. And so we got up there, I gave Phil the yardage. He had, when you go back and you look at it on TV, TV does know justice to how narrow the gap in the trees was. It looks fairly wide on television, but I can tell you that it was about as wide as the length of a dozen balls, a box of a dozen balls. So it was about that kind of width. And it

was a lot of pine straw and my biggest concern wasn't that Phil could fit it through the gap in a perfect world. It was that Phil would lose his footing and then hit one of the trees as a result and So if the ball comes back and hits him or goes into the creek or goes into the gallery, whatever the case may be. Excuse me the patrons You know, it's a bad, bad situation. But, you know, to Phil's credit, he's thinking about making something happen and that's part of what makes him great. So, I gave him the yardage. He tells me I'm going for it in two. So, okay, I know that. Now, it's part of my job is any caddy's job is, you know, sometimes when you talk to your player,

you know, they're 100% in and sometimes they're 80% in. And it's not hard to judge, but sometimes you may kind of go back a little bit just to kind of see where they're at. And so I said to fill, hey, you know, the previous day on Saturday, he had made two straight Eagles, almost three on 13, 14 and 15. I just reminded him, you're the best wedge player in the game. If you lay this up, you're going to have a very routine up and down, you know, for four. And he said, I'm going. Okay.

As I said, now I know he's 100% and that's great. So now again, we're waiting for the screen to clear it seems like it's taking forever and Finally KJ joy pots and he misses a six footer that we assume is for birdie But it turns out was for par I believe and we hear this murmur in the crowd I turn to the cameraman right behind us and say what's up? He goes I Think believe he said KJ just made six You guys are now tied for the lead. So all I'm going to do now is fill is a big scoreboard watcher. It's my job, I think, at this point to say to him, hey, does the fact that you're leading now change the way you want to play this whole?

And he looks at me and he says, listen, if I'm going to win this tournament today, I'm going to have to hit a great shot under a lot of pressure. I'm going to do it right now. And that is like the ultimate, get the F out of the way to your caddy. I mean, that is, I've got it. You like six iron, I like six iron. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to do this thing. I've now said what I need to say and I get out of there as quickly as I possibly can. And he hits, you know, the most famous shot of his career. So it was, it was an incredible kind of, geez, it was probably three or four minutes that felt like half an hour.

I'll never forgive him for missing the putt. I can't watch the shot now because knowing that he misses the putt. So go ahead. Yeah, it was funny, as know from being around there there are Fountains and bridges that have been dedicated to you know the Hogan's and the necklaces and the Palmer's and stuff like that And I always wondered to myself if he had made that plot You know what did increase the chance that Phil might get his own little monument up there at some point given his success in the tournament But you never know I remember attending in 2012 and they had a little white little monument out there at some point, given his success in the tournament, but you never know.

I remember attending in 2012 and they had a little white, little pin flag there from the exact spot that he had headed at. So I would think at some point, they've at least got that spot marked if there's ever going to be a plaque that goes in there. So you guys get to 15. You guys have a pretty extensive conversation over that shot. What do you remember about that conversation? I just remember that we the adrenaline was going crazy and that we that he hit a shot that

That made absolutely no sense that you could get the smartest man in the world and teach him all about Yardges and adrenaline and this and that and you could never You could never quantify the fact that he had 196 yards or whatever it was he had and hit 8 iron. And it was basically maybe a comfortable 6 hard 7 yardage, but it was those days that you get an Augusta in April on Sunday. On Sunday, it's 72 degrees, it's dry as can be. There's not a cloud of the sky, it's sunny, and these guys are compressing the ball. And, you know, Phil's not a guy, even with a lead in that tournament where, you know, if he hits a shot and it ends up two yards over that green, even though he's going to know, he's gonna make four there nine times out of ten. That's not what he wants. He wants to hit a shot and, you know, and be rewarded for it. And over the green there to him is not a reward. So he wanted to play at that hole and he, I would like, you know, I know this is crazy. I think it's a Tomahawk 8 iron and he agreed and he Tomahawked it to 10 feet exactly pin high. If I remember correctly and I just

remember walking down there shaking my head going, my goodness gracious. That's one of the, if not the craziest club selection we've ever had. Well, I love that too that conversation because he before he goes to hit it, it shows his trust in you. He says, if it starts to hurt because you're talking about the wind. Yeah. If it starts to hurt, let me know. Yeah. You before you, if it starts to hurt, because you're talking about the wind, if it starts to hurt, let me know. And you before you went to go hit it, you said, come on, let it go. It sounded like you were kind of, he was maybe a bit wavering on the club choice

and you really wanted to commit to it, and is that good interpretation? I think what I was probably saying is, you can't hit this hard enough kind of thing. If I said let it go I was probably saying we need every inch of this eight iron knowing that you know if he hits it a quarter inch out on the toe you know a groove low you know this thing's not only going to go in the water it's not even going to be close but the thing about great players like Phil, Tiger, Fred

and his day all these guys that could that are really long hitters, is they rarely, rarely miss hit the ball, especially under pressure. I mean, you know, that may sound like, okay, but, you know, PTA tour pros, they'll miss hit shots, they'll hit a little heavy, they'll hit a little thin. But, but I, I remember filling his prime and probably still to this day, he could literally, he would literally miss hit five shots a year. Everything else was just flush right in the mouth. And I was just basically saying to him, there, you know, you've got a Tomahawk just to get it there. Miss hit five shots a year. That might be the best thing I've ever heard. That walk coming up 18, what do you remember about that? Just kind of, you know, having on Earth in a sense,

it's just the greatest feeling in the world. And I think Phil drove it in the right rough there, I think, and had a little root issue and whatnot. And you know, you know, he was still gonna win, but I remember you're still kind of grinding your butt off, and you're doing everything you can. And it's just surreal. And then of course, I think there was some debate that day,

that will not debate, but there was no way of knowing whether or not his wife was gonna come out to be there. And I remember that she was there. And so as was my wife with her. And so, you know, your player is gonna win the Masters. It's an honor to be out there. It's just the greatest privilege in the world of Cadi at that event.

Let alone have your player be fortunate enough to win it. And then to look back there with all they had going on and to see that was pretty mind blowing. So Phil knew she was there next to the green. I think he saw her play on the green there. You have a chance to look around a little bit with the lead he had and she was there by the scoring area that used to be behind 18 green. Did that win feel like the most significant of the three? I'm sure it did. Again, I can't speak for Phil. I'm sure it did for Phil. I mean, I tell people a lot when they ask,

when Phil won his first Masters in O4, it was a relief. It was great, but it was a relief. I mean, it was you never gonna have to answer that question again. I'm sure maybe Sergio might say the same thing if he goes on to have, when multiple majors. I mean, it's great and it's incredible experience, but it's just so nice that you're never going to have

to answer that question again and that every single tournament that Phil goes to for the rest of his life, whether you're Phil or Sergio or Tiger Woods, there's going to be a little kids out there with yellow master flags asking you to sign them. And it's just a reminder that, you know, what you've been able to accomplish and it's a great, great feeling, but you know The third one was probably more significant than the first in some ways, I think to your point So of the 2012 Masters is the most recent of the one that got away. Is it was it any easier to stomach that one when you've already won three of them? No, probably not. You want to win every single one of them. It goss funny like that.

You know, I remember telling you know, when Phil won his Open Championship in 2013, I remember, you know, come, Phil played an acronym's next event and, let's say 20th. And I remember we were coming down the stretch and we were grindin' like crazy to finish 20th at the very next event after what I thought was the biggest win of his career. And so it's just funny, you know, how something amazing can happen in golf and you just want more and more. And certainly not winning in 2012. Certainly, then he'd won three of them, but you want to win every single one. Without the same rooting interest as you usually have at the masters,

is there anyone out there kind of in your in your experience in your few few months as a commentator? Is there anyone out there in particular you have your eye on as a as a good fit for a gust of this year? Well, geez, this is a long conversation, I think, because you know, as well as I do, that golf is, I mean, this master's is lining up to be epic. And as many great players and great stories as there are right now, I think if we get, you know, three of those guys, and you know, battling it out on Sunday. It could be one of the great masters ever played.

I don't know where to start. I certainly think, and I'll stick to it. I think that I've been saying for years now, Phil's not done well in the masters. He's gonna win another one. He's gonna, it was a big deal when Jack Nicholas won the masters at 46. Excuse me, I got a little phone ring in the background here.

But I think Phil will surpass that and is capable of winning that tournament in his 50s. And I seriously mean that. But I think there are four or five guys that are kind of co-favorites and you know certainly Justin Thomas Dustin certainly Phil and and and Tiger you know I can't stress enough with this whole memory thing. I think that you know Tiger Woods and Phil Mekkelson are capable of going that tournament and with their B-Mindless games and winning and not everybody can say that, but I stand by that. I think that they can go there and play decent and make some pots and know where these pots go and know how the ball reacts and this and that.

I think that there's no substitute there for the kind of knowledge those two guys have about that golf course Awesome well bones. This was absolutely perfect. I appreciate you walking us through all the memories and Hope you are able to sit back and put your feet up and enjoy it this this go around and Thank you so much for all of your tremendous insight. It's always my pleasure to be with you Chris Thanks for having me you got it take it easy man. You too. Bye. Bye to be with you Chris, thanks for having me. You got it, take it easy man. You too, bye-bye.

Give it a big club. Be the right club today. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most