No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 131: Andy Johnson on Augusta National

Episode Date: April 2, 2018

Andy Johnson of Fried Egg fame finally joins the podcast to talk about Augusta National from an architecture standpoint. We talk about what we like, what we don’t like, and get some expert insight on... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 131: Andy Johnson on Augusta National appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. ever we've crossed over and done a podcast Mr. Andy Johnson what's happening? Long time listener first time caller. Thanks for having me on Sally. Surprise it's taken this long to happen but I'm sure we have a big crossover in terms of listenership between here and the Friday podcast which of course you host but for those that aren't familiar with what you do and who you are can you give us a bit of background.

and who you are, can you give us a bit of background? Yeah, I just started a golf website, kind of like you guys. And now I write about golf for a living and talk about golf. And it's been a fun ride. I think one of the things that the internet probably knows me best for is a golf course architecture. So a guest doesn't excite in know, it's a rare time where they play a really great golf course. I want to, you don't get excited for a ton of golf courses. At least it doesn't seem to

be at least the courses that professionals play. But you maintain, I just grow to expect when I love a golf course that Annie's going to have something bad to say about it. And your mind, you rank Augusta way up near the top from an architecture perspective? In terms of where they've, you know, where they play week and week out, I think Augusta and Riviera are the clear one, two. And I think Augusta of all the really great golf courses is the one that's been changed the most over the years, which is pretty fascinating. If you look down the list of the top 10 golf courses in America, the vast majority of them have seen little to no change since they were originally designed.

And Augusta has been consistently altered. I mean, almost every year there are subtle small tweaks, but it's undergone a lot of big changes as well. And we're gonna touch on some of those. And I recommend this piece every year around this time. The best thing golf tie, I just think, is ever done. They have compiled, I'll include the link to this

in the show notes, but compiled the, almost a complete list of changes with graphics and images to show how the holes have changed over the course of the years, what years they changed the most. And you can, it's always fascinating to flip between like 2011, which I think was when this was wrote. And 1934, when the course was essentially opened or when the first masters was held, just to see how much has changed from there.

And we're going to get into some of those details. We're going to nerd out a bit on this podcast. But from your perspective, from an architecture perspective, what makes Augusta National great? I think the strategy of it, and it's got a lot of really good architectural principles where driving it to the proper side of the fairway where you take on the risk on a given hole gives a much better angle. I think the biggest thing is the greens.

I always kind of have said, have you ever played a really great golf hole that doesn't have a great green? And Augusta has spectacular greens from the sense, especially of if you don't have a great green. And Augusta has spectacular greens from the sense, especially of, if you don't hit a great approach shot, you're gonna have a tough to put, or, you know, if you shortside yourself at Augusta and impossible up and down.

So what it really does is it places a premium on approach shots. And if you are a little bit out of position off the tee, your chance at having a good shot into that approach shot, you can even be in the fairway some holes are really small. So what it constantly does is it asks players to hit the great shot. And if it's slightly average, you're not rewarded with a great birdie putt. I mean, I think one of the great things with Augusta is how the ball feeds and rolls on the greens.

And we see people's shots spinning off ridges and down to different whole locations that are tucked. It's just a golf course that is, it places all the hazards kind of right out in front of you and ask players to hit the shots and if they hit them, you can see flurries of birdies and great runs like we see every year on the back nine. But if you don't, we see big numbers. And I think that's such a cool dynamic and that's what causes those big swings on the leaderboard.

So I'm kind of working on a take that was not debuted at last night on the live show, the live rewatch we did at the O4 Masters, and I want to test it out on you. I kind of have a theory that the greens at Augusta actually are not that difficult to put. It's just infinitely more important to position yourself in the right spot, and if you do that, then I think putting kind of gets neutralized a little bit. I mean, we've seen players like Bubble Watts and win two masters and he's never been known

as a good putter. Is there any credence to that? Do you will you at least somewhat agree with that? Yeah, totally. I think with Augusta, a lot of times it's better to be 30 feet away than eight feet away if you're in the right spot putting up the hill.

I think a lot of times we see the, you know, some shaky putters win at Augusta because they outball strike the field. In the sense that, you know, it's that it goes back to that importance of the approach shot where you, perennial annually, you see the very best iron players, usually having the most success at Augusta. I mean, you go down the list, Phil Nicholson's one three times. He's one of the greatest iron players of this generation, Tiger Woods, four times, great iron player.

Jordan Spees had unbelievable success at Augusta. It is a great iron player. Last year Sergio Garcia won over Justin Rose to spectacular iron players. It's very rare that you see somebody that's not really great with the irons win at Augusta because they're getting it into that right position like you alluded to. And from 30 feet below the hole, everybody is a pretty good putter. No bones just to mention that on the our most recent podcast too, like on 16, they would much and the shot he hit into O4, he was about 18 feet underneath the hole,

that was the perfect shot. They would rather be in that spot than five feet past the hole. It's not even an option to be past that pin. Yeah, it didn't surge you, hit it above and left of that flag to like five feet. And I mean, it's such a tough little putt last year and he missed it and everybody's like, oh, he choked. It's like, well, it's incredibly fast

and that putt broke like eight inches. It's, you know, it's not really an easy putt to hit. He wasn't trying to leave it in that spot. But yeah. I'm interested in that. You mentioned it just on how much Augusta has changed over the years. And it's a topic that fascinates me. I love reading about it. I love reading about the changes.

And for the most part, the golf course from the 1930s into the late 90s wasn't, it wasn't changed as much as it's changed since then. I think what we've seen so much of a shift in technology in the last 20 years, then we saw obviously what Tiger Woods did in 1997 that forced a lot of these changes. And some of the spirit, I think, of the original layout has been lost. But from what do you know, I guess from like original master's history or original Augusta history back to the Bobby Jones, Alice,air McKenzie days, how the course came about, and what was that essentially the spirit

of what Augusta National was designed to be? So Bobby Jones wasn't an architect, but like you see with a lot of TPC courses today, he acted as a player consultant for McKenzie at the master at Augusta when it was originally designed. And it came about because Jones played at Pasatiempo after he missed the cut at the USM and became just enamored with Pasatiempo and McKenzie's design there and brought him over to build this course in Augusta, Georgia.

And the two of them were most enamored with the old course at St Andrews. They thought it was just an incredible golf course. The restraint, the use of the ground game, the limited bunkers, the playability of it in the sense that, you know, for an average golfer, it was exceptionally playable, but for it could test the world's best players incredibly well. So the golf course originally was designed around being a not a replica, but inspired by the old course that's faint Andrews. And, you know, when it originally opened, it had only 22 bunkers. And there were a number of bunkerless greens around, and they really,

the golf course was much more of a ground game golf course. So, where low running shots shots into greens were preferred. Today, what you see is much more aerial game. Everything, you know, there's bunkers in front of greens and protected with water and such like that. So the golf course in the biggest sense has kind of changed from a, you know, more of a links golf course where it was based around the British islands and a lot of the great holes you saw inspired a lot of holes at Augusta to now it's much more of an Americanized golf course. Do you in your mind do you think or I guess where when were the most significant changes made? When did the golf course really begin to

when were the most significant changes made? When did the golf course really begin to shift from this ground game, kind of old course St. Andrews, inland vibe towards what has become now? So Gene Serres and he won in 35 and 34 and then before the 37 championship or right after the 37 championship, he said in an interview, par is in par anymore. Today, we're playing with modern scientifically made equipment, but courses have not kept up with time. And that's what he was talking about with Augusta and the most recent championship, I think he said that, you know, I think it was a Byron Nelson won with five under par And he said it was 11 actually 11 over par so from that moment

They hired Maxwell later that year to start to make changes and that's when you know You started to see the fronts of greens more protected bunkers, and they rework some of the greens. So they did big changes to the third, the fifth, and the tenth, and the seventh, I think, also that year. But then in the 50s, they hired Robert Trent Jones to do a lot of work, and they added the ponds on 11 and change 16 at that time. But it's pretty fascinating over its history. So they had Mackenzie do the original design then they had Perry Maxwell work on in the 30s. Then they had Robert Trent Jones, George Cobb, John LaVoy, George Fazio, Joseph Finger, Byron Nelson, Jay Mourish, Bob Cup, Jack Nicholas, and most recently Tom Fazio work on the golf course.

So, I mean, a laundry list of architects and in the sense of its original MacKenzie design much of its lost. And that's what, you know, in reading about the original design, and even have you ever played the Tiger Woods video game with that had a gust in it? Yeah, of course. It's a, it was like,

I remember when that came out, that was the best when that came out. And that you could play like the 1934 version of the course with old Hickory clubs, and you could play, you could do different challenges along the Along the course of the years you could do like a jack necklace challenge and you'd play the courses It was in the 70s and whatnot and it was fascinating just to see and read about just the philosophy behind McKenzie and how

He wanted the to be the ultimate strategic Like from teed a green just the the an exercise of the brain more so than it was brute force and green, just the the the an exercise of the brain more so than it was brute force and it wanted to be very not intimidating to a high handicap and that you're not going to lose a ton of balls. You can kind of hit it where you want to off the tee yet for the lower handicap player playing to different sides of the fairway and you know using the undulations around the greens to get to pins was essentially the goal of it. But today I mean again we're a long ways away from the 1930s when this was built. Today, it doesn't necessarily resemble a lot of that. And it's so much of how it

plays off the tee now is, I guess, more, would you, would you consider the course much more demanding off the tee now than McKenzie had intended? Yeah, I would, I would say it's much more demanding. I think it what has happened is, I mean, when I ask you, what type of player is going to do well at Augusta, what would you say? I would say you touched on earlier, but I would say great iron player. I think it's a bit of a miss. And people think that you need to be super long to win at Augusta. I've always maintained you just need to be long enough. You need to be like in the upper 30 to 40% to be to contend at Augusta. Yeah. So you need to have some distance.

They say the right to left shots preferred. You know, you great iron player. But then if you flip that and say what type of player can win at the old course. I mean, that that course is I wouldn't even think you need any kind of major distance advantage to win at the old course. I mean, that course is, I wouldn't even think you need any kind of major distance advantage to win at the old course. I mean, but at the same, in the same way, do you think that course favors a right to left ball flight? Is that what you're getting at?

No, no. So that course, any, you know, people are allowed to play whichever, you know, however suits their game. So you can play, you can be a shorter hitter in the width of the fairways allow you to play to certain sides and get advantages that way. Anybody can hit driver on any hole and get it up there.

Essentially what has happened with the tigrification and a lot of the loss of width is that it dictates the way the holes are played today versus allowing a hole to be played in many different ways. If that makes sense. Oh, it makes all the sense in the world. I mean, look further at number nine now, it's almost like a bit of a shoot that guys have to drive through and everyone's got to take the same exact route. And the way 11 is now, it's so far back that guys can't even get around the corner anymore.

And there's very, there's some strategy as to which side of the ferry where you hit it on. But for most guys, it's just bombing out there as far as you can. And so much of that original design of, hey, let's, hey, be creative, figure out your own way to the green. I think has been kind of lost in an effort to protect par. And even you were quoting there, Sarah's been saying that even in the late 30s, talking about par and being too easy, I think that so much of the strategic, I guess, masterfulness of Augusta has been lost in an effort to keep up with technology. Yeah, it's like, so the fifth hole was originally designed to be modeled after the road hole,

the 17th St. Andrews. And, you know, the great thing about the 17th St. Andrews is if you take on the risk, so with the fifth, it's the bunkers up the left side, you get the best angle into the green. Well, now the fairly there is so narrow that there is no play to the right. Like at the old course, you can play as far left as you want on the 17th, but every yard you go further off that aggressive line, you have a worse and worse angle. So the fifth, now that if you play right to the bunkers, it's extremely narrow and it's really just rough there. So I think, you know, the thing that I think when you think about golf

is like the most fascinating shots in golf come from like recovery and when players are asked to hit these great shots. And what happens when you narrow fairways is that becomes less and less of an option. So you see it a lot of times with, I think, why Speedplace so well at Augusta is that he understands where to miss and when to take risks. And he relies on his short game so much out there.

But if you watch the where he misses, like, how many times have you seen Jordan's beef just bail out right on 11 and get up and down? If he hits a bad tee shot or whatever it may be, but when there was more width there and originally it was just a creek, it enticed when you put a world class player in the fairway, if they're at a bad angle or a good angle, they still, there's a psychological thing where you're playing with their ego because they think they can hit every shot because they can and they pull it off all the time on the range. So when you put rough, what you're doing is you're preventing in the great, then attempting to hit the great shot and the risk associated with hitting

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by saving 25% on all travelbags on OGO.com, promo code NLU, OGO, the world's best bags. Let's get back to Andy Johnson. So I hear you talk off a lot about a lot of golf courses that need trees taken out. And I think Augusta has actually taken the opposite approach of planting enormous trees, somehow wheeling enormous trees in and putting them in

to you which of the tree planting that they've done over the last 20 years is the most defensive? I mean, I just think like how narrow all of them. I mean, I think if there's one hole that kind of sticks out as like the most changed hole and the most narrowed hole would be the seventh, which originally was a drivable par four. Byron Nelson in 37 drove it in the in the final round and that next year it was changed dramatically. And it had bunkers put in front of it. It was still like, it was 370,

but today, it's 450 yards and it's extremely narrow with trees. So, I think sometimes, like the variety of, as we see with like the 10th at Riviera, year and year out, the most fun holes are these short, drivable, par fours. So to me, I mean, one of my favorite holes that Augusta is the third, that's short, par four, and why? Because there's so much interest in how people play it.

People play it short of the bunker. People try and drive it up by the green. People drive it over the green. And then you see guys make fives and sixes from 10 yards from the pin. And it's fascinating golf versus, you know, a long par four where pretty much the, you drive it and you hit a shot up. Everybody plays that hole the exact same way. So, to me, seven also is just a hole that doesn't fit. It doesn't, it that doesn't fit. It definitely doesn't fit the original design of the hole, right?

Going from a short drive before to just now a long, straight par four down the shoot. That is a classic example of what they did with seven and eleven seems to me just like a such an effort to protect the par. We hear a lot about a lot of the lengthening that they did, how it was to preserve, try to have the same irons that Arnold Palmer and Gene Sayers and we're hitting into greens back in their day. Seven and eleven don't seem to really match that. Seven and eleven seem to be unfairly, but so far, the changes were so extreme and the

lengthening so extreme, the difficulty would change the spirit of the hole and that the green on Seven doesn't necessarily fit approach shots that are coming in with five irons off down slopes to a green completely guarded by bunkers. You can't run shots up to that green. The green goes back uphill and that's where I think I kind of get a bit frustrated with what's happened with Augusta over the years. a bit frustrated with what's happened with the gust over the years. Yeah, and I mean, it's, like you said, it just removes the different options of play. It forces a long drive down a narrow fairway and then a high approach shot into a severe green versus the unguarded by bunker green. You could hit a low running shot.

Jeff Oglevy told me one of the biggest shames for golf fans was that they don't get to see Rory McAroy hit all the shots that he's capable of because the golf courses don't require him to. So that's really interesting. No, and I think what has happened with technology, obviously changes were needed. And maybe, I think you and I would say that the changes that we would make would be in relation to technology. But let's take those off the table. Yeah.

If you're on the Augusta National Committee, right, and let's say at 97, and they see what Tiger Woods had just done to that golf course, and let's say at 97, and they see what Tiger Woods had just done to that golf course. And let's say you even have the knowledge of where technology is going to go over the next two decades, what would you have recommended they do to change the course? Because their approach was to bring in the second cut in 99, they brought in trees, they narrowed landing areas, and they linked them the course over the next seven or eight years, about 540 yards. they brought in trees, they narrowed landing areas and they linked them the course over the next seven or eight years about 540 yards. So I don't think that's the approach

Andy Johnson would have taken, but what would you what would you have recommended to to the club at that time? Well So I I think I mean, I was 10 years old at the time when he won say now Let's say now you get to go back in time but the I think the biggest thing is like, don't have these knee jerk reactions. I think that's like one of the, and everybody loves, I think what, every, you know, we've talked about par, you know, and everybody's fascination with par. And if you look at the technology thing,

everybody is like, well, players are better, you know, the equipment's better, they're stronger, they're so like, why do we still hold on to the old standard of par? Like Tiger Woods is a perfect example. This guy was the greatest player golf at Ever scene. And he was a completely different athlete. He played the game differently.

But, you know, he's, he was, you know, he's the greatest player in my opinion of all time. Like, so don't have a knee jerk reaction to him. Keep the golf course with the width that they had because that width is what allowed other people to compete with Tiker. So, I think some of the distance is added is good for shop value to retain having to hit longer shots into certain greens. But the narrowing is where I have a problem because that's where what we talked about with, you know, you have to be a top 30 to 40% driver of the golf ball to, you know, to have a chance at Augusta. That's where you lost the variety of players that could win at Augusta. So the guy like Billy Casper would never win at

Augusta now. Back to what you were saying on the knee jerk reactions tiger one by 12 and 97 there were no major changes before 98 58-year-old Jack Nicholas beat 22-year-old tiger in 98 at Augusta and Mark O'Meara in his 40s one like it was it wasn't Anomaly what happened in 97 it didn't need I mean I think we would agree that There were lengthening that there was lengthening that needed to happen and should happen based on technology. Would you agree with that? Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I think like if you're not going to do anything with technology,

then it's fine to lengthen the golf course. But what was lost is the strategy that came with the width and the ability to play to different angles. I think one of the most fascinating things about Augusta is, if you talk to people, is that, you know, and it's still to this day, that's why it's still a great course today is I think when you, the more you play Augusta, the more you learn. And the truly great golf courses and the great golf holes in the world, you used to, you could play it a hundred times and you're still not sure if you're playing it the right way. And that's, I think, some of the things that are lost when you narrow down the fairways

is that a certain day's pin position could dramatically alter which portion of the fairway you want to be on and, you know, the hazards that come with trying to get over to that part of the fairway. Have you read Tiger's book about the 97 Masters? I did. I didn't read all of it. I read the last chapter, though, what he talked about, the golf course. That's the only chapter I've read.

It's fascinating. I loved it. I mean, it talks about, he talks about, first of all, he says, I remember reading this and writing it down as I read it, like, you need angles. And I was like, Andy would love this book. He needs to make sure he reads this. But he talks about how the things he would change about it and how they mow the fairways back towards the tee,

from the green back towards the tee, and it prevents the ball from rolling out. That's kind of their way of preventing distance and that it's that much harder to really like flush one off the turf. So for the criticism that Gusta Getzver just being like kind of a, you need to be super long to dominate there.

Doesn't that only add more of an advantage to the long hitters? Yeah. I think for really good golfers, the scariest thing is when your ball is rolling. So the more the ball rolls, especially when you know, especially when you're talking about players that are playing in the masters is there's so like the greatest skill is their ability to control distance. Like when Tigers dialed in as you heard them say at Riviera, like I can't hit the ball the right number, like that's an alarming thing when you're a good player and you can't hit the ball the right number because

Where they have such great skill is hitting the exact number, but if you get that ball rolling That's where they lose control once the ball hits the ground If you have and that's where so many interesting contours are at Augusta is once the ball hits the ground You kind of lose control of the ball is a really good player So I think those fairways, they retain more width, but it also favors the really long player because they're easier to hit. And for the shorter player that doesn't carry this long, they lose that role. And the dispersion rate essentially goes up for bigger players, but for that shorter hitter that's more precise, you know, it doesn't really matter that much.

Yeah. And in the book, he talks about set up a ton, said he Tiger would want it playing as fast as possible, like you just mentioned. He would want the ball rolling out. He's always said that he thought, because he is so superior at striking the ball to other players, the ultimate test of how you can control your ball that he has in advantage, I think, when it plays firm. And talks about just how it's supposed to be. And inland leaks, inland links, and then it's inspired from St. Andrews, and that he would

want the grass around the greens also to be super tight. And that that would encourage guys to be able to hit seven iron chips. But now that the way the greens are, the area around the greens now are maintained is that going aerial is essentially the only option. And part of the creativity around, you know, playing different shots around the green, that you definitely see at the old course. I mean, when I play the old course, the 60 degree doesn't come out of the bag.

There's no situation that I would ever hit a 60 in because you don't want to hit it off that super tight turf. And that was kind of, it creates this, you know, you start putting the ball, you start hitting seven irons and four irons and three woods, and it's so much more fun and interesting. But I just found that, all the, all the, any insight he has on it, he doesn't really hold back.

He says exactly what he's thinking about what they should do with the course. He wants to cut back the forest on nine and 11. He also said those bunkers on five are out of place. He said that was one of the biggest things that sticks out to him that doesn't fit the course. He would get rid of the second cut. And then the best part is he says,

if they ever linked at number 12, I'm out of there. I'm no longer going to play the masters if they linked in 12. Yeah. It's pretty simple. I mean, the road maps there. They have all these old aerials, those old photos. I mean, that's to do an authentic restoration. I mean, it would be pretty simple. I mean, the roadmaps there, they have all these old aerial, those old photos. I mean, that's to do an authentic restoration. I mean, it would be pretty easy. I don't think you, I don't, I'm necessarily know if you'd go all the way back. I think, obviously,

I think Elisabeth McKenzie is, most would consider him the greatest architect of all time. So I think you want your golf course to be as close to the original as possible, but I think that you can make some changes based off the considerations for what's happened with technology. I think the biggest thing that sticks out to me is to you, what's the best looking bunker on the golf course? The best looking one? I mean, it's probably the bunker in the middle of the 10th fairway that was next to the old green that's the green zone and longer even next to it. I think that's the only McKenzie bunker that's still been preserved. Is that right?

Exactly. So I mean, like I think one of the McKenzie's greatest skills was bunkering in the artistry and the flurry ad for it. And aesthetically, I mean, the exact Blair and I played, you know, did we played a ton of McKenzie courses on a recent trip to California and you just like the layering and different things he did with bunkers. I mean, you got to get those back. They went Maxwell changed them in 37 and having played a Mackenzie Maxwell, those bunkers looked really similar to the ones you see at Crystal B. Where there just isn't as much artistry that, you know, the bunkers at Augusta had more of the Mackenzie Hunter flair to them originally.

And those, those would be really cool to get back as a starting point is to really look at, hey, like we want to bring some of this Mackenzie feel back. Let's look at getting the width and the bunkering back. And that's reading about Mackenzie's history and what not in his background and his kind of pension for what you just mentioned about layering and the way he would bunker courses is based on his knowledge serving in the war in the borrower in South Africa, what is now South Africa, in being an expert essentially in camouflage, and studying camouflage.

I just found that so interesting that he took these war tactics and essentially turned into a career of golf course design. I found it also, the origin story of Augusta, is kind of a sad one. I mean, their history is, it's a long, weird, some parts wonderful, some really not wonderful. What blew my mind about Augusto was it becoming this mecca in the Gulf world.

Yet, Alistair McKenzie died, I believe, before ever seeing the final product, is that right? I believe so. Actually, he didn't get paid. He died like broke, because it was, you know, obviously right in the middle of the Great Depression. And so he died like essentially impoverished. And, you know, there's, there's, if you go to the like the Alistair McKenzie Society website, there's, there's a great timeline that Sean Tully put together, but where he's writing a Augusta,

essentially begging for his fee because he didn't have any money. And it's just kind of a sad story of, you know, the greatest architect of all time. But there were a lot of people that weren't getting paid at that time. So yeah. It's all relative to the time period, right? So what can you help me with this? I just learned this in the last couple of weeks, especially specific to the 13th hole of the changes that were made there at one point. Why was Jack Nicholas able to consult in the early 80s?

This is several years before he ended up winning, of course, his final masters. But I was able to consult in his bob cup of Jack Nichols' design firm, added elevation and contour and a swale between the collar and the bunkers behind 13. How was that allowed? How is that possible?

Hey, Jack, Jack is maybe second to being the most prolific major champion in the history of golf. He might be golf's greatest salesman. So I mean, he's designed a ton of golf courses. At the time, it just was a bad time for golf course architecture, but I mean, the name Jack Nicholas, it kind of, I could Tiger Woods is a similar way, like if it, you know, Tiger Woods says to do something, you should do it. And I think that's the way Jack, you know, Jack is in the same thing. If Jack says to do something. And I think that's like the biggest thing with what's happened at August over the years

is that they've made these knee jerk reactions to players. And it all started with Sarah's and saying, hey, this score isn't really a real score. Nelson didn't shoot five under. He was actually 11 over because the par at Augusto should be 68. So it all goes back to this idea of par and protecting against the players that were the players and the equipment that were advancing every year. It looks like this is going to be the last year that we see this 13th hole in the way that we have known it, essentially our whole lives. What do you make of that hole currently as it stands from an architecture standpoint?

It's such a neat hole. It's got such cool strategy. I mean, it's everything I kind of like to talk about is if you challenge up the left side of the creek, you get a flat lie in the best angle to approach the green. So take on the risk and you get rewarded handsably. But every single angle you walk off that line, you get a worse lie, a longer shot, and a worse angle to approach that green. And I mean, as

we see, you know, it goes back to this recovery shot, like how cool was it seeing Phil hit those shots, that shot from the trees to recover. You know, if the hole's 50 yards longer, we're probably going to lose that golf shot. You know, he would just lay it up and we'd be, we lost one of the greatest shots in a master's history. So, I mean, it's narrowed a ton. They planted trees, but it's still, I mean, you know, the reason they're lengthening it back is they'd never go to a par 71 and just call the par four. Or,, they have lost the long iron approach and what bubble Watson can do by curving around the whole is unbelievable.

But, and so I go back and forth. Like, if there's never gonna be anything done with technology, I'm not that opposed to the whole being lengthened. But I would like to see width restored with you're gonna lengthen the hole, make it wider and take down some of the trees that you've planted. Yeah, and for the exact reasons you said,

I just find every element of that hole fascinating, right? I mean, I don't necessarily need to see guys hit their t-shots on number, I don't know, let's say nine or something like that. You know, but if they broadcast, skips over showing somebody's t-shirt on 13 like on piss because that is so fascinating to watch how much those guys want to take off from the left or if they bail out right, if they still want to go for it after bailing right. And then even if you, if you miss and you're in the trees on the right, I love how wide

open that fairway is for your next shot, and it's truly a great restoration of the original design of, hey, this is as wide as you want, you can choose what angle you want. You can lay it up, so if a pin is front left, you can lay it up as far down the right if you want, and that helps you get more green to work with instead of trying to get to that front left pin

from just in front of it. I just think there's so many fascinating elements to that hole. And to your point earlier, this got a great green to it, and a great green complex and some fascinating pins that when you put that pin right underneath that big slope, if you bail out and go along,

like there's very little chance of getting up and down, but if you take the risk on and play to the center of the green and take on the risk of the water, like you couldn't end up making eagle. So I'm worried about the future of that hole. They're not going to buy up that land from Augusta Country Club and not lengthen it. So we know it's going to happen.

And I just wonder, is it still going to play somewhat of the same way we've seen? So for so many great memories along the years. Yeah, I mean, I think like if they added just 20 yards, it would, you see a lot of guys hit three wood now. So if it, you know, if they add 20, 20 yards, you see a lot of guys hit three wood now. So if they add 20, 30 yards and it makes just driver a necessity again, I don't have a problem that much with it. I think you really want to just open up that right side and off the tee and let people play

further and further right get worse and worse of an angle and worse and worse of the lie. And you're just going to see better, cooler, you know, more guys hidden into the water and more guys hit really spectacular, great golf shots that can, you know, turn the tides of their rounds. Like I think that that's what, you know, Augusta is so great for is all of the opportunities on the back nine that it presents players that are within four or five shots of the lead. The opportunity to hit spectacular golf shots and come back, you know, and if you, you know, you might not, you could be five shots up on the back nine heading into Sunday,

you know, with Sunday in its final round, and some guy could chase you down and shoot a 30. That's the beauty of Augusta. If you shoot even par with a 5-shot lead, you're not necessarily going to win. What do you think from about the 15th hole, specifically the changes to that? When we saw Tiger play it, he was able to hit like sand wedge into it essentially in 97 with the helping win. In 99, they played in those trees down the left, and they put in the second cut down the right and added trees down the right. Do you think that the spirit of that hole

has kind of been ruined a bit? It's interesting. Tom Dock was on my podcast. I forgot which one it was, but he talked about how the 15th hole at Augusta was like his least favorite hole out there. Because of, you know, just the idea of the green and the wedge shot from a downslope to just such a tough green.

It just goes back to everything we're talking about, is that the way how narrow it gets, everything, what's the one thing you do at 15 now? Hit it far and hit it straight. And like, that's your one objective off the tee. You know, if you look at like the 34 hole, like, and obviously in 1934, it was 485 yards. That's like a driver sandwich for these guides now, which is crazy. But if you, you know, if you, you just have to look at the width because then all of a sudden when the pin is over on the left side, you're going to want to play it up the right side. Say it's today's yardage, but at 4 5 30 with, you know, with the width that it had in 34. You're going to play it way up the right side. And then you get the better angle into that left pin.

But if the pins over on the right, you want to play it way up the left side. And you can get that better angle into the right pin. And that I think is where it's kind of been lost. It's like just these angles and different routes and options to play. So, you know, with that, it just... It homogenizes the field. I, you know, not to go back to Ogle V, but another thing Ogle V said to me about was how interesting would it be to watch a tennis match between Roger Federer and Rafa Nadal if they were only allowed to hit right down the center of the court the entire match.

Like it would it be extremely boring, but if you allow people you know the interest in tennis is when these guys have to play to the lines. And it's the same way with golf. So playing to the edges of the fairways is where all the interest is. My only I guess I don't even know I'm in terms an argument. I guess the argument people would make against it. I'm not necessarily saying I agree with it though, is that with the original design being so wide open and with today's equipment in the lack of fear of a miss and the ability of guys to just swing away and bomb it and yet while at the same time,

being on certain sides of the fairway are beneficial but if you get to a certain length, if you're having a nine iron end to 15, the guys don't care that much about the angle. So I guess, could a gust of implemented different strategic challenges off the tee, you know, maintaining the width? Like, I always like when you point out,

when there's a hole that guys benefit from playing close to hazards. If you did some illustrations at Innisfrog showing, hey, some of these holes are kind of flawed because guys are better off playing away from these hazards. It doesn't really incite excitement. So what could they implement?

You touched on it on 13. If you play close to that hazard, you get a great benefit. But other than tightening and narrowing 15, what challenge would you introduce to somebody off the tee if you wanted to change that hole? You could just restore the width back and put like a deep center line bunker

right in the center of the fairway. So essentially those players are gonna look at it and say, oh shit, which side of the fairway should I play to, the right or the left? And you could make it maybe to favor one side of the fairway, which is a little bit of the safer route. But what that would do is essentially, if they hit it right down the middle into the fairway, it would force them to play to the edges.

And if you're in that rough trying to hit that green with a mid to long iron, you could have no chance. But that center line bunker, I think that's something that if you look through the original golf course, there was a number of center line bunkers. And I think now I don't, there isn't really any center line bunkers out there. If I, my mind is, I guess three is kind of a centerline bunker today, and not really though, you know, it could be more, but that's something that would be extremely easy to do is just to restore the width and add centerline bunkers that are,

that force people to play to different sides, they're in this in a deep bunker. I mean, was McKenzie, I know it on the second hole, there was a center line bunker at the original second hole in that they've moved that bunker all over the place and recent years now it kind of banks the outside right of the dog leg. Was McKenzie necessarily known for creating center line bunkers? Was that a famous design technique of his? Well, yeah, I think it's a, I think that Mackenzie, I don't have the quote handy, but I believe he said something along the lines of, you know, a great hazard is placed directly where you want to hit your shot.

You know, that's the best place for a hazard is like, you know, if you're an architect and you, you know, renovate a hole at a club and somebody says, Hey, that bunker's right where I always hit it, then you've done a really good job. So I think like hazards are meant to be played away from. I think that's like actually one of the things that happened at Augusta, too, is with the green sides is that they've added so many bunkers to both sides on certain holes that it's, you know, it almost makes it easier in a way because if there's bunkers right and left on a given hole or hazards right and left, like the player knows exactly what to do, just hit a good shot. It's like what I said to you that one time, we played that really tight hole,

and what was it, Atlantic Beach? Just hit a good shot and you're gonna be fine. Is that what you really said? Was that what the quote was? What I say to myself before those types of shots, is I get ready and I say, just hit a fucking good shot. And usually I end up hitting my best shot of the day. Because like what happens when there's just like when there's a bunker or a creek on the

left side and the whole other side of the hole is undefended, you know, like what's your natural reaction going to be? Yeah. No, it's going to be to miss it, miss it away from there. And then they don't hit, you know, when you put stuff, when you frame everything, these guys are so good, they're going to hit it right down the middle almost all the time. But if you leave aside open, undefended, that's, you know, they're going to play, like these guys play really cautiously, actually, you know. That's what, yeah, I was, we were down at Barn Bougall playing the think the 15th hole at Barn Bougall doings

Maybe it's the 14th the par four It's the first time I played the course, but I'm looking at this center line bunker and there's tons of room left of it Like what is as much fairways you'd want and I'm looking at my instinct was like all right I'll just play away out there and I started thinking I'm like all right Dauke is messing with me here. There's gotta be there's a catch here And so I just played right at that Sennelheim bunker and played right behind it, left myself a longer shot in, but I had a perfect, like a perfect view of the green.

Everybody that played left was had a completely blind look at the left, from that left side, you had no look at the green. And I just remember thinking like, all right, that's the, that's the exercise that like a good designer makes you go through before you, before you hit a t-shot. I'm just flipping through the old 1934 images. I'm counting a centerline bunker on two, on eight, on 18, on 14. There were a ton of centerline bunkers in the original design to help encourage that

kind of line of thinking that you're talking about. I'm not sure I have a really fully realize or thought of that, but I mean, if you put a, if you put a bunker in the middle of 15th Fairway, guys would flip out. And I like that, but dudes would hate it. Yeah, I mean, look at like the, what was it? The whole 11 at Boston this year. How much guys freaked out about and it ended up being the only hole that Dustin Johnson hit more than a seven iron into agreeing on because they changed it and guys were playing down

other fairways. So I think the center line bunkers I think is you see it's become a big prevalent in design today. I think like Bill Corbend-Crentral, Dauke, Gil Hans, all these guys, David Kidd are using centerline bunkers a ton now. And it was just something lost. Like you have to have width to do a centerline bunker well. So like when we say, hey, put a centerline bunker in 15, it wouldn't work as it is today.

You'd have to take down all the trees. You'd have to get the 65, 70 yard wide Faraway back in order to do it. A good story about centerline bunker. So I was playing the US mid-AM and I'm coming down the stretch on my Second day and I'm right on like the mashplay bubble and the 15th hole on the Stonewall North's course has a center line bunker in a 90 yard wide fairly. And the bunker can't be more than three yards wide. And during my practice round, I played with a couple guys and we got there and we were like, what the fuck do we do? You know, do you aim it left and take it up along the hazard? Or do we aim it right? So in this, and that I'm coming down the stretch and I hit like the best drive I hit all day right into the centerline bunker because we figured out

hey let's just aim at it's only three yards wide so it's it's a maddening designs that centerline bunker makes people think and they've been forces them to pick a line and it forces them to make a decision and i think with you're talking about the greatest players in the world the more you get them thinking the more you win we talked a lot about a lot of different holes but but do you have a favorite hole at Augusta? Yeah, I, 13s obviously.

I think maybe the greatest hole ever designed and golf. So I would say 13, but if you're, if you want one off the beaten path, I really like 14, which is devoid of any bunker and is pretty wide. I think that that greens a pretty neat little green. It's, I think it's got like 10 feet of elevation between the front and the back. And I think it gets overlooked just because it's sandwiched in this incredible stretch

of closing holes. But I like 15 or 14 a lot. I love hole three. Three is fascinating golf. I used to dislike three before. That was pre-woke stage. Now I like to see I see the beauty in number three. What do you think of 17? It's it's all right. It's it's pretty cool. I mean like it's Neil thinks it's the worst all out there. It's so narrow. It's just, you go back and you look at the original and there was no bunkers.

I mean, those have got changed with Maxwell immediately. But, you know, you go back and you look at that hole and he modeled the green after the 14th of St. Andrews. And it was supposed to be played with a run-up shot. is he modeled the green after the 14th of St. Andrews. And it was supposed to be played with a run-up shot. And today it's super aerial. I mean, it's narrow and it is all about the aerial approach in there. I mean, it's just tough because of where it falls

in the round, you know? Yeah, I think it kind of stinks. I think that the, I don't know exactly how the land falls, but I mean, I think that it's just such a dead straight hole now, narrow shoot, and I know that the seventh green doesn't let it happen. But it'd be cool if, I don't know if they're able to move the green to the right and able to introduce some kind of left to right hole that so much of the hole is benefit the right to left player that we talked about, that I just think that, you know, coming down the stretch

would be cool if there was a hole. 18, I've grown to love that, you know, guys that want to take it further around the corner, risk hitting the trees, but that might cut your distance down a little bit. And get a better angle. Yeah, but 17, there just doesn't seem to be much strategic. Well, yeah, yeah, then just hit it long and straight It's like arguably the most narrow hole out there and then they've got front You've got two bunkers right in front. So like I mean how many different ways could you feasibly play the whole?

Like it is you could hit driver you could hit three wood But at the end of the day you have to hit it straight hit driver, you could hit three wood. But at the end of the day, you have to hit it straight, you know, versus opening it up and allowing people to play, I want to play to the right side of the fairway. You like really can't do that. Like nobody's playing to the right side of that fairway or left side of it. They're playing down the middle of the fairway. And then, you know, on the approach shot, there's really only one shot you can hit. You can hit a high, you know, short iron or wedge into the green. Like that's all, and you're not going to see anybody hit any different shots there.

Do you have a, I know we talked about seven, but you have a least favorite hole out there? Uh, I mean, seven probably. I like, I think 11 over the years has changed so much, but it's still an interesting hole because of how difficult it is. But it's not, I would love to see it brought back to what it was. I mean, it's still a fascinating hole. If you could get that wide, and there's all the counter on the front right of the green that just doesn't get used because the adding of the pond I think really has ruined that whole as well as like the tree planting because like there's just like you see it year and year out

everybody bails right because there's no they don't incentivize people to hit the great shot or give them the whole thing. You know, right. All right, we're going to get you out here a couple more here, but if you could design any type of playoff at Augusta, what holes would it be? Whole holes. Like, so any holes. If you could, if you could devise the playoff system for Augusta. What would it be? Do I have to think about like going around to different things? So like

Yes, I know all right. Well now that the USGA next the 18 hole playoff I say bring the 18 hole playoff back. Okay, you know and and do it but Augusta I mean I like the way I like the short aggregate, because like, you don't want it, you know, the problem with the 18 whole playoffs is most people wouldn't get to watch it, but I would do. Yeah, I think if you could work in A-men corner, it would be a pretty cool thing. Like, if you could do 12, 13, let me try to think about the map. You could go 12, 13, and then you could go 16, right? That's pretty close there. If you could go 12, 12, 12, 13, 15, 16. There's a ton of reasons why it can't happen. But I think that would

be absolutely fascinating if they could, if they could somehow do that. I know that like for daylight purposes and like moving all the patrons down to that part of the property for a playoff, it would be kind of a disaster and you'd have to use a cart to get in between holes. But that would be, that would be a must see television if those four holes were an aggregate score playoff. I'll have to think about that more. It starts at, I'll send you my, because you could do, I think two is such a cool hole. And then two and three are kind of underrated holes.

And then you could do, if you could get over to the back nine, you could even do, I mean, you probably could do two, three, man, I don't know, you probably could do two, three. Man, I don't know. It'd be, that's a tricky one. Sorry. That's good. All, uh, we had this question from our, for our mail bag that we're going to get to, but I found this one fascinating. You're playing Augusta. You get to play one hole. And if you bogey or worse, you die if you par or better, you live, which hole do you choose?

Oh, 13. Really? Yeah. Yeah. You're that confident you won't hook one into the trees? Well, I mean, you could hit seven iron, seven iron, ledge. That's true. I said two. I said two might be the best bet.

Two wouldn't be a bad one. It's a, yeah, I'd say I'd say I probably picked 13. I know I definitely wouldn't pick 12. That's the last one I would pick. That'd be so that's a fair one. That's a fair choice. So, all right. Andy, we'll let you out here on that. Thanks for the hour, man. Thanks for all the insights on Augusta. Look forward to what kind of stuff can we look forward to over on your site in advance of the Masters here? I'm going to do a couple podcasts with guys that played in the Masters. Then I'll have a bunch of articles. Last year I had a cool article that was like an architect mailbag where if you're interested

in the course and the design, Mike Clayton, Rob Collins and Keith Cutton talk about a guest and national over the years, what they love about it, what they would do if they were real architects would do, if they were tasked with redesigning it. So that's a cool article, but I'll have a bunch of stuff check out the site and the fridayag.com. So yeah, I'll have a ton of stuff up. Sweet. Well, thanks for the time, buddy. And appreciate it and enjoy the masters. Who's your pick? Speed forever and for always. Yours. Yeah. Oh, man, I think I think I, I think I'm going to go with JT. I think he's the best player in golf. That's that's that would

have been if I could I lock him in at the beginning of the year and if I were to change it I would change the JT but I'm I'm faithful to speed so yeah here. Your boy is good man, so he's very good. He's very good at golf so all right. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, you bet man. Take it easy. All right later. Cheers. Get it right club. Be the right club today. Yeah! Yeah!

Yeah! That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different.