No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 141: Paul Azinger

Episode Date: May 16, 2018

Paul Azinger joins the podcast to talk about his unique rise from not being able to break 70 as a freshman in college, to living out of an RV on tour for 3 years, the... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 141: Paul Azinger appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Out Podcast coming to you from Bradenton Country Club, Fox Sports Analyst, Mr. Paul Azinger, Paul, how are you? I'm good, I'm glad you made it in safely. Are you podcasted out? You've done a lot of podcast lately.

I did one with Shane Bacon and Mark Inwomen here recently and but it was mostly It's a lot of golf swing stuff and then with Shane Bacon it was a lead up to the Masters and then you got you're gonna be on Fairety tomorrow night We're recording this on Sunday before the players week. So how did that go with Fairety and Boo? It was great. I thought Boo was just unbelievable. They may have to put Subtit subtitles subtitles under there just so you can understand what he's saying but he was really boo that was real boo

he wasn't in character that's who he really is and uh... it was refreshing to hear him he thinks different then you would think he thinks he's an outdoorsman through and through he builds a lake so he can eat the bass out of it i mean uh... ferriti was great you know he's been through a lot emotionally and fights battles every day. And I've known Faraday since, you know, his playing days.

He was a heck of a player, but man, as he turned his career into something special. He disparages his playing career. He plays it down, and when he's announcing, kind of as a joke, but he was a player. He doesn't lead that on. He's very humble about it. He played the Ryder Cup.

You're not, you know, slouch if you're playing in a rider cup and now he had a nice long career successful career but you know he'll tell you he was an alcoholic and it just was hard for him it just was a hard career and he's turned all that into a positive he doesn't really have any secrets you know that's a nice way to live too and now he's freed up and still battling every day but I love David Farrity. I do anything for him. You mentioned talking about fishing with boo and whatnot. I hear you're quite the fisherman as well. That's how you would,

how would you spend your Sunday afternoon if you weren't stuck in here with us? Well, I'd love to fish, but I'm almost fished out. I'm ready to start playing off again just for fun. That's kind of what I'm thinking. I've got a great dock in my backyard. It's 386 feet long. It's the biggest dock in that area and the fish just cluster under it. And so I can go out and catch fish. It's hard to put a boat on top of 200 redfish. I can tell you that.

You just sit here and fish off your dock. So I fish almost every day off my dock, but that's about it. And so you are back playing more golf these days than usual? Or it sounds like you were saying you've been taking some time off? Well, the desire to play is what changes as much as anything. Plus, I was beating that sweet spot to the death when I haven't played much since March. Well, I want to get to the latter half and kind of where your current competitive state is with golf, but I want to first talk about kind of get into how did you get into golf as a kid?

I mean, everyone's got a backstory for how you ended up on the professional, playing professional golf. So kind of where does that start in your mind when you're talking about how you got into golf? Both my parents played golf. We lived on a Air Force base with golf clubs or golf courses, I mean. And so we were playing when we were little kids. My dad pushed me around on a cart and I'd be, know sitting on the cart that he pushed and so we always were around it they loved it we watched it on TV and I was pretty good by the time 8th or 9th

grade and then it I just kind of sort of quit practicing and playing and by the time I left high school I was having a hard time breaking 82 days in a row. But I want to revive junior college and I'd never broken 70 till my second year of college. Really? Yeah. And then so I just it was just a snap progression. I had Jim Sutty. Dr. Jim Sutty still teaching today and John Redmond were teaching me. And I guess five years after that, I was a player of the year on tour. So I went from couldn't break 70 to that is the fastest progression ever.

But you guys like Larry Nelson did it. He didn't touch a club till he was 21 years old. There's plenty of players that were late bloomers. I played all along and I think, oh, I was a late bloomer, I was a late bloomer. I got my privileges when I was 21 and now here these conversations now about how much better the players are now younger No, they're not they're the same greats are great players, you know, and they did it when they were young I'm not saying I was great. I say but I was still young 21 Jordan speed young tiger with setting record young Jack Nicholas set in record young

You know the young That's when you do it. That's when you let it get away, or that's when you get it done. Roy McElroy, young, right? Yeah. So what was your game like, I think, like in college, when you were not breaking 70 till you're sophomore year of college?

Well, I mean, it was duck hooks and blocks. That's basically duck hooks and blocks. I mean, what else are you gonna hit if you're terrible? But you can get it in the air. I mean, it was duck hooks and blocks. It's basically duck hooks and blocks. I mean, what else are you gonna hit if you're terrible? But you can get it in the air. I mean, I was athletic. So I think like with today's technology, it's kind of guys are kind of following a very formulaic approach to making the tour,

whereas back then there were a lot more different styles of play, obviously there's varying styles of play today. But back then with that kind of technology that persimmon balls and the ballad is, you kind of work your way around a golf course a little differently than just kind of bomb and gouge of today. So you were hitting draws all over the place. Is that how it works?

That's hidden duck hooks. But I personally think golf's a lot more difficult today because if you want to try to play for a living, there's so much information you have to have or you're giving something up to somebody else. Where before you had track man and videos and, you know, that video camera is not that old. You know, another thing about videos too, because we started, I was getting videoed in the

70s, late 70s by Jim Suddy and College, so I saw my sling for the first time, it's like seeing your voice or hearing your voice. But I liked the way it looked for the most part and he just trashed it. But I look at it like this. We've had video technology since the 70s. Everyone can video their swing and now we're 40 years into it at least. And still no two swings look alike. Isn't that true? And I think that's remarkable about golf. But the information that you can get off a track man and you can watch your putter, you can watch the ball fly off a putt and make it optimum. I think those are the

sort of things that make golf hard. So when you're trying to get on tour and you're a kid that was exposed to all the information versus a guy that doesn't get, it doesn't have any of that information. The guy that doesn't have the information is behind the April in my opinion. So no one had that information. The guy that doesn't have the information is behind the April, in my opinion. So, no one had that information really in that timeframe. But you had the information. No, we were just the first generation starting to get that sort of thing.

And then the metalwood came out in 81, Taylor made, that little metalwood, and man, golf just started to change really, really fast. And now it is more of a bomber's paradise, but there's no formula to it because everybody's different every day. You know, Ricky Fowler bomber's paradise, but there's no formula to it because everybody's different every day. You know, Ricky Fowler, Justin Thomas, trying to win the US Open last year, Brooks Kepka's

up there, Brian Harman's up there, and you just look at their lives. They're all completely different, coming from completely different places, and one more night sleep changes the way all those guys felt, trying to win the US Open. One more night sleep changed everything. You know, Nicholas talks about that all the time. He said, every day was different. That's great to know. I thought, oh, every day is different for me.

I thought I was the only one. But it was different for all of us. Was Nicholas a guy who were, I guess, your role models looking up to growing up? Everyone loved Jack and Arnold, and I got to, I know Arnold when Arnold one I was in college so that was cool I worked at Bay Hill. That was a big difference in my career. They talk about that transition from Bay from community college to Bay Hill to Florida State. I work there for eight weeks one summer and we'd pick up every two weeks we'd pick up a bunch of kids that would come stay at the Arnold Palmer Lodge and then we had seven or eight teachers lined up

that would teach them in little groups. We used to pick the balls for them and we got to play and hit balls all the day long and hit the range picker. That's how I felt like I learned how to hit it low. You know, Arnold was an influence on me and I would say for the most part though it was probably Andy Bean, Crenshaw, Trevina. Those are the guys that really put their arm around me and made a big difference. My short game changed.

I got a lesson from Phil Rogers at one point in my career that just changed everything for how I thought about short game. I say pretty much that I really never learned anything on my own except what I felt but I had to be taught everything. I had to be taught to shorten my swing. I had to be taught how to set up. I had to be taught how to chip and pitch and put everything. Bunker shots. I went like VJ who done every other lesson and figures out for himself. I was opposite. So that's the way. And that's just you know, that's the way. People say to be people say, Oh, what a feel player, what a feel player. Everyone's a feel player. Everyone, because they feel different every day.

But I saw my teacher twice a year. He's got to see their teacher all week long, right? Week after week after week. And it's micro managing. You know, Jack said it best the other day. I was with Jack at this, uh, fundraiser. And, uh, he said, he was asked about positions in the golf swing. He said I never tried to put the club in position But I tried to swing through the positions. That's a nice way to say that. Anyway, that's resonating with me right now

I mean you know how likes is it so orn Hanscing that is like doing the downswing at the match play where he's trying to steal? Alex Noren. Thank you, I'm confused to. Alex, and he's trying to put the club in these positions. And it's like, man. It's torturous to watch that, that, that pre-sharp makes. He's got a lot of hard.

But I've, I've, I've, I've played with some guys that kind of have started doing that. That, that specific pre-sharp routine, they say it really helps them. It helps them with the left shoulder for whatever reason that it's. Hey, you know what? Whatever it takes, because like I said, there's no two swings that look to like. That hall of fame is full of different grips, setups, tempos, positions at the top. If you look at the top guys in the world, I mean, Dustin Johnson's like that

at the top. Yeah. Justin Thomas looks what you would think is pretty good. Roy takes it up and drops it way down underneath. Ricky lays it way off. Jordan's piece like this. No two guys look the same. Bubba. Yeah. And I don't know.

After 30 years of video or 45 years of video, wouldn't you think everyone would look the same? That's not how it works. Very true. Would you consider yourself so in your priming in your early years, were you a very technical player then? I mean, for you for from an analytical standpoint, could you tell you tell you, you know, I hear I hear some guys say, you know, I've got a 152 yard shot and I've got a hundred 54 yard shot. Like, were you were you that technical or was it more of a

feel perspective? I mean, if you're going to win, you're probably know the difference in 54 and 52. I mean, you probably know the difference in 54-52. I mean, you probably know the difference because you feel spot on, your setups perfect. But I look at it like this. I think for the most part, every player knows they're gonna hit a good shot before they draw it back. And why is that?

Because I always say about that setup, when you're not hitting a good, there's a setup waiting for you to come back in there. Because we've all stood over the ball where we knew we were gonna hit a good shot before we drew it back. So I believe that that two or three seconds before you draw it back,

if your thoughts are all organized and perfect, you can repeat if it's chaos. So I think one word, every great player is about a word away or maybe one sentence away from playing great again. No, but none of these guys need lessons anymore. They just need reminders once in a while. And then the field changes every day.

Who's the best at evaluating that bunker shot in that lie? Who's the best at evaluating that shot out of the rough? You know, that's what interests me. Because I know there's sling changes every day. You know, around the greens, we have hundreds of different shots, but we only have two or three, one or two or three, possibly four techniques. Does that make sense? Yeah. We got all these shots with one technique, but man, you learn a second technique and all of a sudden your handicap goes from 12 to 8. So I don't know. I'm probably rambling right now.

No, it's all interesting. I mean, just hearing the way, like, very successful players think about the game of golf is kind of what. I just know it's different every day for the most part, but you can be really consistent. Some guys are really more consistent. I always say if you had a better record than me, you probably had better feel in me. And I can give that up because it's really,

uh, can't teach that really. Feel comes first. I can't feel for you if I'm teaching you. I can tell you what I think. But also believe this, I believe there's three or four things that every player does. And everything else is opinion or fingerprint. Everything else, the three or four things.

I mean, the turn, turn, and then the club comes in last. That's turn, turn, sw then the club comes in last. That's a turn, turn, swish, and then it has to release. Beyond that, there's nothing else that anybody does the same. Footworks different, grips different, arms are different, shoulders turn different, some shoulders turn level, some turn that way. And I don't know, I'm fascinated by the idea of it,

but I do believe that you can take, see, golf is hard. I said, you know, golf is harder now because of track man and all that. And the information you must know, but it's simple if you really get down to it. It's just not that easy. You wanna compress the ball. You have to be in sequence to do it.

And then it becomes feel. That's it in a nutshell. Take some of that with me. All right, I want to go back in time. So after Florida State, you turned pro in 1981. Is that sound right? What was that like? I mean, were you destined to be a pro at that point

or was it kind of a risk for you to turn pro and start playing professionally? What was your status? What do you remember most about that time? Well, I was at Florida State and I was a pretty good player. My third year of college, When I couldn't break 70, I finally broke 70, my second year at Provard. I went to Florida State and I won the Gator,

which was a big tournament to win. And I know I'm in the Metro Conference, which is a big tournament. And I think I had just had enough of being there. So I turned pro, which was risky. I had nine sponsors put up three grand a piece and busted out the door and my wife Tony was still going to Florida state. So I was gone for a little while. My friend from high school caddyed for me. We drove out west and it's no sure thing. I remember showing you

you know we were in all that desert through Texas and Arizona and then we popped into Phoenix and it was like an oasis One up there to the Phoenix open the original Phoenix open course a little bit of one and it just blew my mind that I was out there doing that Just I couldn't believe I was there. How'd you get into that event? I Monday qualified for I got there and there was 150 guys for 39 spots. I remember I don't know 150 was 150 guys for 39 spots. I remember, I don't know, 150, but there was 39 spots. And I shot 69 in my first ever Monday qualifier on tour.

I was a part of the rabbit system back then. And what's the rabbit system for people back then? But before the top 125 got exempt, only the top 60 were exempt. And everybody else had to Monday qualify that had any status every week. If you made the cut, you could play the next week. If you missed the cut, you else had to Monday qualify that had any status every week. If you made the cut, you could play the next week. If you missed the cut, you had to go Monday qualify the next week. So you missed four cuts in a row and you're choking pretty hard on that fifth Monday.

But you could get a streak going where you just keep making cuts. Anyway, at Phoenix, I shot 69. I was pretty happy about that. When I got in, there were 16 guys for eight spots in a qualifier on two in a playoff the next morning. And I birdied the first hole and still didn't want to end. And I parted the next two and I was in. So I got to play that. And then the first week I made the cut. And I got paired with Bill Rogers, who was the player of the year, the year before. He had every green in regulation and all the parfies and two. And I was like, oh, this is a different one here. Never seen anything like it. That first tournament, who was the person you saw out

on the range, you were kind of like, oh shit, like this is getting real now. Yeah, probably Johnny Miller and Bill Rodgers, those two right away, Trevino was there. Wise cough was there. And you know, I'll tell you a funny sort of a funny story. I love Wisecoff so much. They're all lots in the Super Bowl, and they showed George Herbert Walker Bush in the crowd there.

And it's Trevino and Wisecoff and Irwin and Watson, and they're like all the show ponies are there. And they show Herbert Walker Bush and Wisecoff says, who in the hell is Herbert Walker Bush and well, I scoffed this. Who in the hell is Herbert Walker Bush? And he was the vice president at the time under Reagan's. He was just hilarious. The table busted out laughing. I was like, that was funny.

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When these truvas balls, especially the custom ones go, they are gone for good, so make sure you guys are logging on and getting those immediately. Friday, May 18th, visit calawagolf.com for more info. Be sure to pick up yours before they're gone. Now let's get back to Paul Aisinger. So, did you, when you're out there, did you feel like you belonged out there or did you feel like you're walking on eggshells?

I never felt like I belonged out there. Are you kidding me? I was so self-conscious of my grip. I remember playing the LA Open and a guy named Chuck Brinkis who used to carry all the black and white sequences of every great player swing. He had a big briefcase over his shoulder. And Brinkis would come up and he'd shout, Look at clamp it, look at clamp it, look at Holbert, look at Holbert, check Clampett, look at Clampett, look at Holbert, look at Holbert, check out Holbert, look where Holbert was, look at Chad.

And you know what, he came up to me one day and he said, you'll never be any good with that grip. So I went back to Redmond and it really helped me, I mean, it messed me up the whole rest of the year because I didn't get lessons from, I didn't have an lesson from Redmond all year. It's just how we just how I did it. And I lost my card.

So I had to go play the mini tours. And I went and worked with John. And I started hitting unbelievable in like 10 minutes. He goes, well, it looks to me like you cost yourself a lot of money not coming to see me. And I said, well, they wanted me to change my grip. You know, out there, and I got real self conscious about it. And I don't know.

He said, son, if you ever change your grip don't ever come see me again and I was already striping it and I just thought right then and there I'm a quit being self-conscious about my grip and that was a huge hurdle because nobody feels like they belong out there until they in Elmonte is something else to nobody thinks they're not heading back to tour school. Nobody thinks they're not heading their exempt from ever having to go back to a tour school. Because we've all seen great players fall through and go away.

Happens all the time. So you're never secure. That's the hardest part about it. Now if you have a, if you've won five times, or if you won once, you get a couple of years where you don't have to stress it. But I can tell you right now, Tiger Woods is gonna have to start qualifying for the US Open

if he's not in. He's exempt this year. I think the USDA might let buy for how many years will they do? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, hey, Lauren, one three US Open. How many years are you gonna give them an exemption? Yeah.

I know, I hear you, but I'm just saying, that's how tough it is. Even Tiger Woods might have to qualify for the US Open. That doesn't even seem right. Imagine that spectacle if he's out at at a sectional call. But that's what can happen and that's why I tell you there's not one player out there. You know Brooks Capca got hurt. He's a United States Open Champion and he got hurt. Now how long you think he thinks he's kush right. It doesn't work that way. Now, maybe you can make more money now in a shorter amount of time. But as far as your longevity is concerned,

everyone's got that butterfly in there. Trust me, or sitting on the back of their head, everyone. So was it 83 of the year that you were playing the mini-tours? Is that sound right? Yeah, and I played good. I finished second like seven times, and I won once. And so my confidence soared. And then I got back onto or lost my privileges.

And I went back to tour school and I won it. And of course my confidence soared then. Then I got in a couple of invitations, the colonial and jacks tournament. I played good in both of those and I ended up keeping my card. And then the next year, I might have had the math wrong. I'm thinking it was seven years after I broke 70. But I was player of the year, but I kept my card for the first time in 85, 86.

I was in the top 30 for the first time, which got me in all the majors for 87, 87. I bogeyed the last few holes to lose the British. But I'll still play it the year. I won three times that year but that's all I remember. I believe that tournament. So I have been racking my brain trying to figure this out. You won three times in eighty seven. Yeah. We're second in the open championship. Yeah. How were you now in the 1987 Ryder Cup team? Well, because I didn't go to sweater folding class or something. Because that's

the way it was. Yes, you had to attend a one-hour class. And I didn't know about it. I didn't even know what the Ryder Cup was in 1986. I promise you really. No, I was trying it. We were living in 24-foot motorhome with a cat. And we didn't have a house or an apartment. And that's a fact. And we lived in there for three and a half years. So that was, you know, that's you're trying to scratch. All right, I moved too fast things because we need I need to hear about that time frame you lived in you lived in a motor home with a cat for three and a half years Just on the road we did 24 foot mini motor home where you sleep over the top and We racked it a few times. I did back into stuff and she ripped the awning off one time going through a toll booth and I Beat my head against the Pad where we you know were sleeping one time when I forgot to sign my scorecard on a mini tour in 83 and I lost 609 bucks

because I didn't sign my card. I mean it was just like that was how we lived. Wow. Crazy dude. It's amazing. I know. I was the first four years of our mini tour life in marriage really. And so where were we? Well what clicked then I guess in that time, because I mean- Well, I kept my card in 85 for the first time. In 86, I got exempt for the majors, then 87, I had that year. It just happened.

I won the first term, I played in in Phoenix, so that was pretty cool. And once you win, then you got a couple of years, so your confidence sores. My confidence was on there going the right way the whole time. I got into progressive relaxation and that sort of thing. I was reading, I was, I don't know, I was just in a good spot.

A good healthy spot. And you won Las Vegas, you won the Hartford that year. Yeah, it's just amazing that all that happened. I shot 64 last day to win Hartford, to win Vegas, which is really cool. I eagled the last hole. Yeah, I mean, it just happened so fast. And I think the biggest shift probably was mentally. I had the ability to stay in the moment,

which is the key in everything. It's key in life. And it just happened. And that was your first open championship you'd ever played in. I think it was that right. I played in 87. One thing that really did change me was in 87 when I played a practice round at the day after I won

Phoenix at Pebble Beach and I ran into Bertie Answer who you know, he worked hard with me too on you know, set up and Timing my setup and all that sort of thing, but Yeah, I went and I hit a shot into the third green. He waved me up And we got on the green and he's like, he was a close talker, a part was, and he got real close, and he looked at me and said, congratulate, he talked like this,

congratulations on winning the Phoenix Open. I said, thanks, Bert, and he said, are you gonna play the British Open? I said, I don't know, I'm thinking, where'd that come from? And you know what he said to me? He said, son, you can win all the Phoenix opens you want. You can't make history unless you win a major. And if you don't play the British open, you cut yourself out of 25% of the major championships. At this time, was it still?

It's 1987. People weren't playing the British open. No. That's what he said. And you know what? When I walked down the hill to that fourth tee, I was like, I'm going to play to make history. And that was really a defining moment in my life right there. As far as not choking for the money, I didn't choke for the money ever again. Less I was had to make a five footer to finish third by myself or tie with six people. Then I'm choking for the cat. But I choke for prestige. And actually, to be honest with you,, and then I'm choking for the cat. But I choked for prestige.

And actually, to be honest with you, I heard Gary Player say this the other day, he never felt like he choked. And I'll tell you the truth, I never felt like I choked. What is choking to you? Choking is mentally just going too fast, making mistakes. It's not shaking.

It's just mentally, you know, the swing takes a second and a half. It's amazing all that can run into your head in that second and a half, isn't it? To me, that's choking. That's why that second and a half needs to be without words. It needs to be feel. All those words need to happen before you draw it back.

I wanna be on the downswing side of the ball before I take it back. I can see this side. I wanna be on that side of the ball. With intent. When you're swinging the cloaking's mental. Are there words in your head? And there are words in your head or that's all for you?

If I'm winning. If I'm not winning, there's words popping in there. They'll mess up your motion. You know, you think about it. You'll lose the fluidity of your motion. What does every great athlete say in their moment of greatness? What were you thinking?

Just happens for the most part. They're just thinking no and thinking anything. And I believe it applies to swinging an axe to a tree or anything else. You're not a lot of thought going on in emotion. I've heard you talk a pretty great detail about playing while nervous. And I've always found what you've said

about that pretty fascinating. And that I think I remember you saying something along the lines of learning to play while nervous. Is that something that you think you, do you get less nervous as a situation as you get further along in your career or do you just get better at knowing? All right. This is going to go eight yards further this time. This is going to be different because of my nerves.

No. Well, I'll tell you what, same guy, Bert Yancey. You know, he really dropped two sentences on me that changed the way I thought. I remember Leaden Hilton had in 1985 and I didn't want to even play out so nervous. I was like, I said to her, we were sitting in the motorhome in a trailer park over there. I remember it well. And if I have to be this nervous to make a living, I might want to do something else. I just didn't like it.

I didn't like it. I called Bert Yancey. I didn't teo off till two or something. I called Bert Yancey. And I said, I'm so nervous. I don't even know if I want to play. He said, son, you want to be so nervous you can't spit. I was like, why is that? Because if you're not, you're in the middle of the pack. So at that point, I just decided I'm going to embrace this pressure. And so I still was a wreck, but I thought,

what, you know, was Billie Jean King's as pressure's a privilege or whatever, in some respects it is, because you think you're gonna be under the gun all the time, and then your game goes away, you know, and you don't get to deal with it. Tiger knows he's right in his palm of his hand, he can get back under that gun,

but he's got a want to do it. He wants to be so nervous, he can't spit. I've been imagining he got so confident that he wasn't nervous against guys that were nervous. That's a big advantage. Jack was the same way, but you think he wasn't nervous in St. Pete? Valspar trying to win.

I think more so. Just like anybody else. More than any other time in his career. Is he doing battle? Yeah. Everybody's out there doing battle. Mm-hmm. I think that's something everyone listening to this can take take with you is in that when you are feeling nervous or feeling like even in your little 18-hole match, the the final green at eight-foot putt embracing that and saying like this is my time to perform rather than thinking about

not choking is a I think I'm working towards that in my own personal game. I think that that's kind of what you talked, I think that that moment was kind of one for you where you said, look, when I'm nervous, this just means it's where I'm supposed to be. Well, you got to learn how to do with the nerves. I mean, you could slow your heart right down with your walking pace a little bit with the way you breathe in four counts, real slow, four counts real slow. I mean, that's helpful. Did you, did you go to, how did you learn to do things like that?

Did you get training from someone on that or never learn anything by myself? Yeah. I always do that. Everything I had teach me, everything. So, but the, I think the deal with the pressure, it's, it's an embracing of the pressure to the point where if you have that eight footer, you're just mentioned, you're thinking about the pressure at that point. You know, you're so attuned to it. But if I look at that board and I know that it's a solo third versus tied with a bunch of guys, this, you know, and then if you miss it, you beat yourself to a pulp all night

and you get ready to play tomorrow. Or the next week, that's how I was. So speaking of pressure, you were in this, your first ever British Open, you were sleeping on the 54 hole lead. Could you sleep that night? Well you able to eat the next morning? Did you watch it? Did you watch any golf before you went out? Yeah, I watched golf before I went out. I didn't feel good. I had the flu or something before I left. So I left one day later than I would have ordinarily. I didn't eat much because when the pressure was on I didn't eat that much.

So I lost weight. But, you know, I played great the whole week. I led from wire to wire until the wire. Right to the wire. But it happens. And it's one of those things. It's a lost opportunity. There was plenty of lost opportunities by me.

Trust me. But that was the one that hurts the most because, you know, I was naive about what the British Open meant. I knew what Burr had told me. You can make history if you win, but the history of the British Open was something that had slipped me because I didn't even know what the Ryder Cup was two years, you know, the year before that.

The magnitude of winning the British. And then my major punishment for not winning the British was having to call the British Open or getting to call the British Open for 10 years for ESPN and ABC and then having to see the trophy and then you know a lot of the time having to sit by Fowldo who I honked it with so I've been punished just about enough for losing that. I don't only sleep over it now I don't think about it only when asked and I just now I look back at my career and I just wonder how did I do it because I see what was required and it's hard. I mean, I watch these guys mini tour guys at Mr. Card.

Man, what do you think he needs to do to be better? Well, he's got a way to year for tour school, so that's number one. I mean, because that's the only place that it matters, right? And you can relate so much to the ups and downs of the game. So when you're standing on that 17th tee, and so you boggyed the last two holes to lose the foul-dough by one, that was that nerve situation different than anything you had experienced.

You had won three times already that year. Was that nerve situation different? I would say, no, it wasn't. I mean, like I say, I don't think I choked. I hit a really dumb shot on 17 and got it into the bunker. And a T-shot, T-shot, that was bug. 18, down the middle with a long iron, I think.

It had hit five iron, I was between four and five. And I probably should have skinned the four iron up there, but I tried to smoke a five and I pulled it 15 feet and it drew and went into bunker. And I was on the downslope with the bunker. I was just one of those, it happened so fast. And I was so mad about it for a while there. And then I became heartbroken.

And you know, you're not over it till you win again. Not one bay hill the next year. Yeah. So, you know, it's like anything else. You know, it's like, you asked Freddie, hey, how's your back? How's your back? You don't want to hear that anymore,

but when you wins again, no one asks him, how's back it? Right. We watched a bunch of masters, highlights, how's your back? How's your back? You don't want to hear that anymore, but when he wins again, no one asks him, how's back it? Right. As we watched a bunch of masters, highlight leading up to it, the masters this year and watched Ed's need, the masters that he gave away, that was painful to watch, and I went back and watched the 87 open. It wasn't like there was a moment where things fell apart

for you, you just got some, not, I went to unlucky breaks, but just hit it in the wrong spots a couple of times. Three put it 10 and 11. Yeah. And I bogey 17 and 18. So, but I don't think anyone thought I really choked. No. I never felt like choked, but I was glad I wasn't framed choker.

Mm-hmm. I didn't flare 140 yards right. Right. I hit it good. And, but it happens. And I'm just thankful that I won the PGA in 93, because there was nothing gonna happen after that. Once I got that sickness in me,

that was my game never was the same. So thank God that I was able to pull that off. Did the crowd, after you missed the putt on the last screen, the crowd kind of cheer because style they wanted. Did that bother you? Did you notice it? Yeah.

Yeah, it made me mad. I told you, I was watching that closing ceremony. My arms were folded my jaw was clinched There's a couple pictures. It all there's a great picture The guy that finished second Brian Davis. I think no not Brian. It is last names Davis always wore knickers You used to see him there's a big Roger Davis Roger David. Yeah, you used to see Roger looking at me and then The pictures him looking at me and me looking straight out like

Shock on my face. I don't think I don't know if I have it, but it's sitting around there So does that is it safe to say that's kind of where your golf rival were you with Nick Fowdo started? Well, I had a rivalry with Fowdo, but he didn't have a rivalry with me. It was a one-way I just way that went. Arnold and Jack was a real rivalry. But Nick and I, you know, made me not like Nick for a long time. Maybe jealous or something. I don't know, but he didn't have much to say other than, you know, he walked up and said, sorry about that.

That was it. And I was like, man, I hate that guy. But I grew to love the guy. Yeah. When we were in the broadcast, but yeah, he's great. Fowl does, you know, he's good. Did you feel like you got revenge in 2008? Oh, yeah, it was all revenge for me, all of it.

And I was out smart in him, you know, out thinking him because we did a lot there at that Ryder Cup. You know, he ended up with a, like a drummer from a rock and roll band as an assistant. And I got, you know, Raymond Floyd, he was big influence in my career too. And Dave Stockton and Olin Brown, they're all with their little pod groups and all that. So I really, uh, was outside the box thinking, got our players enthused and instead of dreading the rider cup because we keep losing. Sure. I think they really anticipated it and wanted to see what

was all about. But yeah, it was a little revenge for him. We'll get to the rider, the captain in the rider cup. But then, so you missed it in 87 because you didn't attend your class that you needed to. Was there controversy around that? They changed the rule after that. Okay, I figured that was a joke.

They changed the rule after that. It was pretty obvious. We need to help. We need to get the best players, the hottest players in there. Because that was the year we lost to the international or the Europeans at home for the first time. That's right, field. And that's when I knew what Ryder Cup was

when Jose was dancing across the green. And I was like, oh, and then the 89 Ryder Cup is your first Ryder Cup. Made it. You were three in one. What do you remember about your very first rider cup match? Well, it was Curtis and I. And we were playing Gordon Brand.

And I think Sam Torrance. And they beat us on the last hole. Gordon Brand hit his second shot on the top of the tent of the spectator tent, which is 20 yards offline, minimum, right of the right bunker. Hits the top of the tent, which is 20 yards offline, minimum, right of the right bunker hits the top of the tent, goes forward and then rolls like a son of a gun. Bounces comes off the tent and bounces down onto the green and He ended up beating us in the match one up Curtis and I lost one up.

Balls going out. I remember losing that match and then I got with chip back and we won and then we played Fowdo losing in one match and that was a revenge match for me. I remember telling Chip on the first tee. I mean there was like Fowdo, Fowdo flags are going and they came up and I remember saying to chip back it was pretty loud. I said, Chipper, I don't know about you, but I'd taken this match personal. And he was, I love it thingy, me too. We made eleven birdies. They made nine birdies. I don't know about you, but I'd take in this match personal

We made 11 birdies. They made nine birdies. Wow, and we beat them two and one Then I was really confident we went and put I've got yeah, I had luck it's so lucky at Ryder Cup because I drew their superstars I could have drawn a bunch of guys you never heard of but I kept drawing and it's just a blind draw. It's luck I was gonna say you went up against Sevy in the singles that wasn't pre-arranged at all none of it is Yeah, it's just a luck draw. It's luck. I was gonna say you went up against Sevy and the singles. That wasn't pre-arranged at all. None of it is. Yeah. It's just a luck fest. Who do you get? And you know, our strategy was to look for their best players. And some respects, because they were better than us, and we knew it. But we get our hottest players out first or whatever. I was first match out, because I was playing so well.

And I pluck Sevy, which is the greatest gift ever to get Sevy. And then we battled right from the beginning. It's a famous match. And yeah, I mean, there's a lot of controversy with that match. And, you know, I'm vindicated by it because of anemic fee and the referee of the match just, you know, tell you what happened. But what did happen? Well, he accused me of taking a bad drop on 18, and I figured you'd probably get to that

point. And I was like, Sammy, he told us where to drop it. I just kept that point to him and me in the hall and went backwards. Oh, okay. But we had stuff going on the whole match. I called him the King of Gamesmanship and he said,

the American team's 11 nice guys in Zinger. That was 91, right? Oh yeah, but still. But it was a scuff ball incident from 89. Is that right? Oh yeah. No, that was from 91. No scuff ball incident from 89. Is that yeah? No, that was from 91. No, that was 89. Yeah. And there's singles match. Well, see, I draw savvy on Saturday night. And Curtis walks up to me and says, don't let him pull anything on you tomorrow. So my mindset shifts. So then we

get to the first T and Curtis goes off last. And I'm off first. There's a lot big gap between those T times and he comes walking up to me on the first T. Yeah, you feeling good. Don't let him pull anything on you today. So back then the golf balls were getting shredded by the square grooves. And we were both using square groove wedges.

We hit irons off the second T, three irons, both of us wedged into the green. He hit it about 12 feet. I hit it about four feet. And we get up there and he takes his ball and tosses it to his caddy Ian and says I take his ball out of the play, and I was like Curtis popped in my head. And my ball was shredded, I had hair, I used to ping wedge back then and it really wrecked

the golf ball, and you could, excuse me, you could pick my golf ball up by the paint thread that was hanging from it and so I can't take it out of play though I could rub that paint thing off of there but I can't take the ball out so anyway I just thought he's pulling some right there and so I looked at his caddy I asked I said I need to see that ball and I looked at it and I walked over to Sevin he was already lined up as he's squatted down and he just looked up at me like that. And he's, I said, I don't think he can take this ball out. I said, look at mine, it looks just as bad.

He goes, you're appearing rules to this party, it's no good. And I said, well, in the US, you're gonna have to play it. I said, maybe we should ask you official. So Annie McV came in. Great guy, he, I'm sorry Sevy, you have to play this ball. Well, the crowd was into it now, and they were jeering me.

The best thing about that, too, is when the crowd, well, actually, Sevy line that put up from every direction. Oh no, let me just say this. I looked at Sevy, and I said, I'm sorry, my ball looks just as bad. And Sevy looked at me and he said, no, no, it's okay. If this is the way you want to play today, we can play this way. I looked at Savvy and I said, I'm sorry my ball looks just as bad. And Savvy looked at me and he said,

no, no, it's okay. If this is the way you want to play today, we can play this way. And I swear, bro, my hands are not shake when I play, but at that moment, I was starting to quiver. He made the 12 footer. Of course he did. And then as the crowd noise died down,

some British guy yelled out, what would you have done with the good balls, Seve? And I was thinking, man, I put my ball down. I was like this. I hit this putt that went in the hole and came right back at me and the crowd just yelled out. They cheered twice as loud when I missed. And it was really a rough match after that.

We went at it. I didn't think he was hitting it that good. Raymond Floyd comes up to me, I was two down after four. the car he's all worried and he's alright. I said I'm great. I said he's not hitting it that good. He's gonna give me couple holes you watch. He duck hooked it right in a junk on five gift and so he gifted me a couple and we just did battle right to the 18th hole and even my caddy was doing battle. It was just awesome.

It was like welcome to the Ryder Cup. And it became, you know, it's in our head. It's in their blood. So it's different for them. But my head flipped on Ryder Cup. I'm like, this is it. Whoop, these boys. That's the way I thought.

I mean, the passion that people talk about, I get that I talk about the Ryder Cup on every podcast because the stories that come from it Are better than anything comes from stroke play events. That's for sure. There's a lot of stuff man It happens in those matches, you know on 10 I hit it to the right of the green over there going for the green in 89 and 7 when I got up There's on some ladies plastic whatever and when I got I had to drop, you kept going closer to the green.

And when I stood up, before I dropped, I stood up and bumped into Sevy, because I went to Nolraide where your bottle was. And I mean, it was like that out there. And he, then he grabbed his ball and tried to place it all around. And thank God it didn't stay anywhere. And I had to set mine on a little tough to grasp

to get it to stay. And he's like, now you have a perfect lie. And I was like, it was just like, we went at it. But we were good friends before the Ryder Cup. And I think we were just fine after. Everybody thinks we hated each other and all that. You know, Savvy taught me as much as anybody too. He was great to go for it.

Go for rivalry is different than kind of a personal distance. The Ryder Cup is different. There was a passion there. We're both patriotic, I guess, in some respects. And then we're very passionate. So, the boils over to 91. The war by the shore. You and Chipback get paired against Sevy and Jose Maria. Yeah. And was it the first match that there was the ball compression incident? Can you walk us through what happened there? See, I hate that it's remembered for ball compression

incident, but that's what it's remembered for. And I got four of those golf balls, brand new sitting in my room that I found in my old Ryder Cup back. But, you know, they took a bad drop on number two that the official let them get away. What they played, they broke the rule basically. They hit a ball that they couldn't tell when the hazard, then they played a provisional, which is for a loss ball. And then they went back and dropped like the ball,

like they knew the ball went in the hazard, but they didn't know. And it they went back and dropped like the ball. Like they knew the ball went in the hazard, but they didn't know. And it was controversial, but we won the whole. And then the fourth hole, Sevy hooked it in the junk. And the official yells out, he says, five minutes is up. And then literally within 10 seconds, they found the ball and he let him play it.

And I just was eight about that. And chippers like calm down. I said, no, man, he can't do it. So that was how that match started. Okay. Didn't know that. Yes. And I actually requested another official. So we had another official command. We had two officials on that match. Then on 10T, they accused of using a wrong compression ball, which we did. And it was totally my fault. But it was a 90 compression title, it's versus a 100 compression title, and we're on the first

part five. Here's how it works. If the 100 compression title, it goes off number one, the 100 compression title has to go first off every odd hole the rest of the day. Okay, that's as simple as what it is. That 90 compression ball, which was red, if it goes off number two, it goes off every even hole the rest of the day. Is that still that way, you can alternate balls? I don't know what it was. Now they've changed, they've not a bunch of changes.

But I think it's a one ball rule now. I think so. I think so, I do know what it is. Yeah, so my P brain was just figuring, well, if you hit my ball off the T, then I lay up. No, if I hit your ball off the T, if you hit my, no, no, here's what it was. If you hit my ball off the T, you lay up, I get to hit my ball into the green.

That's what it was. And they caught that, and that's illegal. But they didn't call it. It was on seven. Eight, we played normal, nine, we played normal. So they tried to call us on it, I guess, on 10-T. And we were two up or three up or something. It shook us up. I'm sorry, it was hard for me to remember exactly

in the sequence, but that's how understandable. This is Paul A. Zinger here, completely confused. 27 years ago. Oh, what happened? But yeah, anyway, it was ugly. I always wondered how they could tell. How would they even know? I guess it was the color of the ball was different. No, just the logo just the tireless stamp and the number on the ball. How did they notice that? They heard talking about it. Oh, okay. I was free and talk. We were talking about it. Like it was a great strat boy.

Aren't we smart? Right. But boy, we budget it because if you hit a black ball off the first tee it's got to be off every odd hole and it just seemed like that kind of triggered the flames a little bit for that entire right and yeah that little bit of controversy made the rider cup great it made actually Americans really started to care about the rider cup but you know I never wanted to rub anybody's nose and anything either and I just was trying to protect what we were doing you know even, even when we won the Ryder Cup, you know, I felt so bad that Langer missed a putt in 91 that I didn't run out there in celebrate. Yeah, it's hard to watch.

I put my arm around her and I just, like, we just watched. I didn't go out there and celebrate because I knew how much that would have affected me. Then the next year, 93, I was the last match out against Fowdo, and I knew what happened to Langer, you know, so that was nervous all day that day. Your match ended up, the club had been clenched by the time you and Fowdo got to 18. Yeah, I was won down. Yeah. Don't tell me you didn't want to win that whole to make sure you had that.

Once he missed his putt and I had about a 12 or 14 footer for birdie He could have pain stewarded me and said oh, that's good And we'd tied the match and it wouldn't have made a bit of difference But he didn't he sat there on fault and I was like thinking man, follow should be giving me this putt Would you give it to him probably not? No way He looked at me like I'd never cross my mind, you know, yeah, no way you got to make you put that Oh, yeah, I put it and I made it, thank God. But yeah, that day I was a wreck all day. And 91, you're saying?

93. Oh, 93, just against Fowda. Last match out, knowing it's coming down to us. And in 02, I was like the seventh match out or something, and I was terribly vulnerable there. It was coming down to us. If I don't hold a bunker shot against Nicholas Fost, we lose right then and there.

And a matter of fact, I made a 10 foot putt for bird, yeah, for birdie on 17 to keep it alive, because all the Europeans were celebrating. Man, they had to cork you're ready to pop on 17, but I somehow squeezed that in and then hold a bunker shot and they end up celebrating on the group after. Well, so you told me this story last year at the memorial about what you were telling

your caddy. I forget which hole you're walking up about. Nicholas Fox. Yeah. Yeah. He was just so aggressive all day. Pump his fist when he hit in the fairway. And I remember saying on 15 to my caddy, I'm saying it's coming down to us.

Michelson was losing his match. You know, I love telling this story about Mikkelsen. I mean, one cornflake at a time for breakfast the last day of the Ryder Cup. Mikkelsen's going off like a 10th or 11th. Very vulnerable spot, right? This dude gets three of those big British waffles. The two fried eggs, syrup all over the place,

cuts the whole thing up and walks down the whole thing and I said to my caddy, I said, and I said to my wife, I said he's not playing good today all the bloods in his stomach He's not gonna have any blood in his fingertips. That's what Hogan used to say I didn't eat because I wanted to blood my hands or the best feel so they don't do that anymore I don't think like that but all I was thinking in any order to die at Coke I'm like why'd you get a diet code bro? You should have just gotten a regular coke Anyway, it's coming down to us.

And I just said to my caddy, Michael, since all his blood's in his stomach, he's not gonna come back and win that match because he was behind. And then about 15th, third shot or 16, I remember looking at my caddy and saying, you know, this guy's been a whatever all day. So he doesn't deserve the clinching point

because you get re-reveared if you get that point in Europe. And I said, he doesn't deserve it Patrick, he doesn't deserve it. I kept saying that and I said that a bunch and all the pressure went away for me. Well, instead of thinking, I'm going to lose the rider cup. It's going to lose it on my watch. They're going to sell a brain on me, which they will have love to have done. That's how my brain was thinking. I just couldn't handle it. But then I shifted it to heat undisurban and I swear it changed everything. And then you had that glorious high five session after holding the bunkers. That was totally my caddies fault. But you know, I walked in there. I know that was a brutal look. Caddy playing on the head. 100%. I love it. 100%.

Well, and then I tell everybody we were going for a medium high five not a high five, but I remember getting in that bunker and I looked at Patrick and I said I got a hold of Stone I and he looked right at me didn't say a word and the last thing I said to him was of course I do and then I He didn't went in and so we went crazy That's what we were screaming. We just went eight my neck was bulging. I regret it. I really did It's great. No, it is actually great. That that was a bit of a preview I guess or I guess no to a throwback to 93 your bunker shot at Mirfield Village in Memorial that was another situation where you know when I hit it in a bunker I was one behind I hit it in first with

a five iron and then 18th hole at Jack's course and pain was in a little bit of a divot i didn't see it he had seven iron and he had a heavy i knew as soon as he hit us a sanifat buried in the bunker not only one behind and he pain blasts out about ten or eleven feet above the whole and in my mind i'm thinking he's not making that because he's put it terrible all day and you gotta get this up and down and all i thought about was don't miss this playoff don't miss this playoff.

Don't miss this playoff. It's gonna be a playoff. And I've been hitting bunker shots all week in the evening after dinner. We're staying just on the other side of the dry and arrange. All week I was in there playing around in the bunker, slapping it and hitting it, unbelievable. It's just one of those things.

And then all of a sudden that moment arose and what was really, probably pretty tough shot. Just like I'd been at the munkers all night. Don't miss a playoff, don't miss a playoff. And as soon as I hit it, it chattered right away. I'll tell you what, I think my club was in my hand before the ball hit the green. I hit, because I'd been playing around like that all week.

And man, it trickled in, it went in the back of the hole. I didn't go in the side. Seven-year-old me was there when that happened. I was there I grew up on that golf course and go to that tournament every year And if I if I remember right I felt like the crowd was really pulling for pain on that day Did you everyone wanted pain? Okay, he does Cleveland Brown knickers on or what? Cincinnati Bengals or whatever he had it figured out Mm-hmm when it came to that outfit

He would wear the NFL and we'd go to a town. Yeah, it was brilliant. And what a brilliant thing that was for him. But yeah, they all wanted pain. And but the I've never heard a cheer like that in my life. Maybe Hartford, so I chipped into Win Hartford once. And that cheer was that cheer was pretty loud, but that thing of memorial brought us on real. And so that that same, is the year you won your PGA championship, Inverness, over Greg Norman. What do you, I guess, probably I would imagine going to that playoff, you don't give one single shit about Norman's major championship history and the heartbreak he's endured, right? He's just in the guy you're playing against.

And probably most people want to Greg to win. Yeah. I know this guy's producing a CBS telecasts why he Greg Duane. They showed him all the time but yeah it was I had just become the best player not to win a major when I won Jack's tournament or Boston. I won yeah no maybe Jack's tournament then I won Boston after I won Jack's tournament and then we went to the PGA and I was in midseason form as all I can tell you and I'd played Inverness quite a bit in these Dana Pro Amps and

I remember having the most unbelievable practice session before I left the house and for the first time in my life I looked at the three guys watching me and I said if I don't win The PGA it's because I'm scared. That's all I said. So I was confident. And to me, it was like, are you scared or not? Do you want to win more than you're afraid to blow it? That's what it blows down to, isn't it? Yeah. I wanted to win more than I was afraid to blow it.

Didn't matter if it was Greg Norman or who, and come Sunday, I didn't have the pressure to lead. I was one back or something, second to last group or third to last, second to last group, I think. Played with Bob Estes, who's peace of cake to play with, except he was kind of slow.

And you know, just happened. I was lucky to win. I know my stats for the week. I think I led the week in driving distance, was second for the week in fairways hit and was first for the week in fairways hit and was first for the week in greens and regulation. And I want to play off.

I mean, I was lucky to win. I didn't put that good. I didn't have a three putt, but I could have easily lost. Norman left a ball in a bunker. He had this brutal lip-outs. I could have easily not won and hit it the best I've ever hit in my life. Do you think that winning in general, especially when comes to majors, gets a bit overrated in that sense and that maybe that didn't even feel like your best major performance ever

and that just those the one that happened to fall your way? I think that I tend to think that people are really hard on guys that may have several top fives in majors but haven't won. What could Ricky have done much better than this past masters to have won? Patrick Reed beat him by one, but he's up 14 under. Sometimes the way it falls is just... And it's all time. It happened to Calcovecchi at the Masters. It happened to Davis Love at the Masters. It's a real luxury to be able to say, to be able to ask this question. Well, do you think Patrick Reed's going to win another major, or do you think he's a one major

guy, or do you think he's going three or four or five? And I'm like, nope, what a stupid question that is. I heard it on the talk radio the other day. I said, what an idiotic question that is. He just won the masters. Let's go see what that level of confidence is going to do for him to speculate on how a golfer is going to play. It's just to me as a golfer who knew every day was different.

It's not like football teams. If you're better, you're better. Right. You gotta have turnovers to have a chance. Golf, Patrick Reed did it. Will he ever do it again? Well, I don't know, but the first one's hardest. I can tell you that.

That's, and it's gotta be hard too with your current role. Like with Fox, you're gonna be doing obviously a bunch of media leading up to it. And everyone's gonna want your pick for Shinnokok and it's like, nobody knows these things. And no experts know who's gonna win. I mean, you can make some guesses and whatnot. But.

Well, I think Roy McElroy's gonna win. And he misses a cut. And I think Tiger's gonna win. I thought Tiger would win the Masters. I really did. I just said, this is it. This is how, because the way Tiger's career went, he couldn't just make a hole in one.

His first year on tour. He had to do it on 16 in Phoenix. Right. Place goes crazy. It's unbelievable. Everything he did was just, and I just figured that table was set. You know, watching those guys on the range, I know I got to tell you, there was a little bit of gap for the way I saw it. I thought Roy looked the best with the ball, the flight, the sound, Stenson's right up there, Ricky's up there. I thought that Maccarroy and Reed, I thought, we're a little better than everybody else. And sure enough, there they were right there at the end. I told everybody that would listen.

I said, I saw a gap. Patrick Reed and Roy Maccarroy and sure enough, there they were. Yeah, it was, I mean, not a lot of people were really expecting that from Reed from start to finish, but that was impressive. But I think we kind of, we got stuck in a rider cup there between 87 and 93. And we got, we got, we got, we got, we got, we got, it was, I mean, not a lot of people were really expecting that from read from start to finish, but that was impressive. But I think we kind of, we got talking, stuck in a rider cup there between 87 and 93, but didn't kind of fully realize until doing research, just how dominant you were during that time period.

I mean, and then following the PGA, what was the timeframe? That's when you got your cancer diagnosis. How long after the PGA? Well, I knew before the PGA ended that I was going to be doing a biopsy, or at least going out to LA to see if I needed another biopsy, because Frank Job, he's the guy that invented Tommy John Surgery. Dr. Job called me on Friday night of the PGA, and after seeing a bone scan, he said, I'd like to do a biopsy Tuesday after the PGA.

All right, well, man, I mean, I just shot in the 60s in first two rounds, some playing pretty good. I just got invited to the skins game in November. So I won the PGA, and then he called me Sunday night to congratulate me. So I guess we can put it off a little bit. So we put it off a little bit. And then at the skins game is when I got the biopsy done. So that was in November.

And it was showed up that they took 50 or 60 slides, smears. They cut a hole on my bone basically and scratched it all out because it was black. And they smeared on all these slides. And of all the slides, and the lymphoma showed up on two slides. So now you go through that battle of the blood, bone marrow, all that stuff. It didn't show up in my blood, it didn't show up my bone marrow. It's weird because it's lymphomas of disorder of the blood and it wasn't in my blood, it was in the bone. So they got it, but it was just a few months after. August, September, October,

November. Were you in a lot of pain? Yeah. To that is that you knew something was something was off there. Someone tapped you on the shoulder. It's like, oh man. Really? Yeah, it hurt. Yeah, it hurt. Thank goodness, because that always hurt. Yeah. So what did that do, I guess, to your competitive spirit in the coming years? I mean, was your motivation to play golf?

How long did it take for you to get back on the golf course? Because you made four starts in 1994, right? The next year. Yeah, 94 is able to come back and make four starts. And then I remember 95, I could play and then take a nap after I played a morning round and then still go to sleep at seven o'clock at night so I wasn't right for a while. And then I switched clubs you know I was you remember the Callaway Pipe Renches that first came out the very first ones how weird they were. You know I always

say don't switch for the money but I did I switched for the money and I don't think they helped my career any. I remember playing with't switch for the money, but I did, I switched for the money. And I don't think they helped my career any. I remember playing with Sevi and Jamaica, the first tournament I really used them and I shot 62 playing with Sevi. And we got done. You know, Sevi called me when I was sick and all that. We got done and we're in the trailer there

doing our scorecard. And he says to me, after I shoot 62, by the way, he says, those clubs, he says those clubs. He's no good. I saw how, why do you think that? And he says, the ball is too flat. That's all he said. And in the end, he's probably right.

Wow. Because I finished fourth in Hawaii, the next turn of my play, so I'm like, I'm on the way back. Here I go. I could play with anything. But my swing changed. There's no question about it.

Slung the thing up like this, and they had to go more upright and more upright. By the time, fortunately I had an out clause. I was able to switch to another set of irons for a lot less money, and I did it the last year of the deal. And four months later, I won Hawaiian Open 2000. 2000, that was great. But I love Calaway, I do anything for Callaway.

I swear I would because. Good save because this is a Callaway sponsored show. Oh, is it? No, I mean, when they first came out with that club, it was a nightmare. And, but I love that company. I loved either Callaway and Dick Helmstetter and the guys that formed that company.

And to this day, I feel like I'd do anything for Callaway. That product was not a great product, but it put them on the map. They made great woods already by then. I already won the PGA with their woods because their woods were great. And their woods are still great. And their irons are great now. Remember writing a letter there or sending them a letter there that really said you're ignoring a classic rally of sport by ignoring the Hossel. That's what I was telling them. And in the end they now they got irons with Hossels. And then they got a lot of people playing great irons. Patrick Reed just won. The Masters was Cowell A irons. So you won in 2000. When did you

give up the stop playing the PGA tour full time? Once I turned 50 pretty much. I played less when I was 49 maybe or 48, but I was a Ryder Cup captain, 47, and I was doing TV. I think I played a full schedule right up to the... I kept my card every single year pretty much, so... And you just have no interest in playing the Champions Tour or what was kind of your... You know, I was really stinking pretty bad at golf that for a while. It was driving me crazy.

And I got hurt a couple times legitimately, which I never got hurt really, except for his cancer. But I fell off my motorcycle and broke my shoulder and had to get a plate in there and that was kind of like that ended it in my mind. That was it. And when I did get out there you know I thought it was going to be a bunch of cigar smoke and let's drink some red wine and give a grinded just as harder harder wow and I realized that I had a conversation with my caddy

I'm up against the chain link fence there at Newport Beach. Beautiful place out there in LA area, California area anyway, and right on the water. And I'm up against the chain link fence, hitting down the fence where I was using the fence, you know, to hold off left. And I looked down that driving range and I just saw these guys. I grabbed my caddy. I said, come here. And I grabbed the club and put it in the back. I said, do me a favor and walk three yards out there. Look down at driving range and tell me what you see. This is the true story.

He said, he looked down here and he says, I see a bunch of old guys, you ought to be kicking their ass. And we busted out laughing. I thought it was funny. And I said, that's not what I see. He says, what you see? I said, I see a bunch of Hall of Famers more committed than me. And I swear, I was having dread

before I went to every event. That was it. And I didn't play, I played in one tournament after that with Black Mar and I was done. And it's okay, I mean, you know, I can still go. I'm still exempt. I'm fit for the most part. I'm still fairly fast and I still hit the sweetie.

But I don't have any designs on going out really in my mind. Do you miss it? Do you miss that competitive golf? Not that much. Because you've got a pretty great gig in golf these days. Well, yeah, it's another thing too. I had another option. Right.

I didn't have to sweat over five footers. But you get outworked. I wouldn't pretend to be over five footers. But, you know, you get outworked. I wouldn't pretend to be able to go out there and shoot 16 under on the courses they're shooting it on. So. And of course you were the 2008 Ryder Cup captain. We touched on that. I think what it can be easily forgotten that you were the captain right after back to

back 18 and a half, 9 and a half losses. I know. The US was at a complete, and those two teams, those O4 and O6 teams, pretty hilarious names, if you look back at it. So I went to go look at your O8 team thinking, like, all right, this is when all the resurgence came. I was shocked to see some of the names on that team.

So think about it. Yeah, I mean, Chad Campbell was on that team, boo was on that team, you mentioned Justin Leonard, which was post Justin Leonard's prime, I think. Yeah, sure it was. Sorry. Ben Curtis was on the team. You mentioned Justin Leonard, which was post Justin Leonard's prime. I think. Yeah, sure it was. Ben Curtis was on the team. Ben Curtis, that's right.

I thought Ben Curtis was the guttiest player on the team. He didn't play that well. We had a great team, but we didn't have what you consider great players. And the outside of the box thinking, you know, take the 12 guys and make three four man teams out of them Really intrigued the guys that had been getting their butts kicked at Ryder Cup and he got him engaged right away And then they still do it now the only guy didn't do it after the two guys that didn't do it after were Cory didn't have any interest in what we did and Watson

Didn't have any interest in what we did period and it back fired on both a little bit didn't have any interest in what we did period and it backfired on both a little bit. But the small group philosophy is your pass it naturally. You know, to span your play together, the Englishman play together, the, uh, you know, the sweet's play together, just the way it is. How did you develop that? I mean, I think from the outside looking in, it seems the rider cup, the captaincy and the leadership can be almost sort of a buddy's club or almost kind of a thing that, you know, where it comes from players moving into the Cappdancy role and everyone's kind of afraid to ruffle feathers. How did you I guess did you have kind of a blank canvas to work with because we were coming off such two humiliating losses that your

philosophy appealed to the PJ of America or how did that process well I had to sell myself because in oh six when layman was Captain Corey Paving had gotten in there and he was really lobbying hard to be the OA captain and I've had been promised it because they wanted me to do it no six because that would have been pains and I was like, you know, I don't want to symbol I don't want to do that. I want to be OA captain. Okay, good. Well, come away. M.G. Orner called me up former PGA president. He said, you still want to be the captain. I said, yeah, he said, well, you need to call Roger Warren and you need to start lobbying for it because you're about to lose it. I said, what was promised to me?

He said, you better start calling. And I did, I call Roger Warren and I told him what I was gonna do. I said, you know, he was an old basketball coach and I just said, I watched the Navy SEAL's documentary of how they take large groups and make them into small groups. And I said, I want to do that with this team. I want to do four, three man teams

or three, four man teams and whatever. And he loved it. And that's how I landed it. I lobbied for it. And then when I got with Ron Braun, who's, you know, he made the biggest difference, Dr. Ron Braun, and how you put the players in the groups, are you going to do it?

You know, how you do it? I said, well, you know, usually we use light games and guys that are buddies. He said, if you ever considered light personalities. And I had, and I gave it a little bit of thought, and we ended up categorizing through just through observation, four different personality types. And then we used Myers-Briggs, Greenlight, Caution Light, Redlight. That's a simple version. And we tried to put Greenlight personalities together in the four man groups. And they had total control of whatever they did, how they prepared. The message was, play to play great, which is Rhotela.

Play aggressive, which is everybody. And let's go show off. I just wanted them to show off for the crowd. I wanted to prepare. There's no shortcut to success. You're not going to. You can't hope for it. You can't wish for it. You have to be prepared. Let's out prepare him this week. I took control of the course. I got four picks instead of two.

You know, we took over. I took over that. That was your recommendation to go to four picks instead of two or that's where we're going. Four picks instead of two was huge. I didn't want to I wanted only the four majors to count the year before and then every tournament counts the year of. My philosophy was that I'd rather have a hot player than a guy who has experience. Because you know, if your experience can get your butt kicked every year, that's not, I'm not looking for that either. So your captain's picks were Steve's trick or Hunter Mayhem, JB Holmes and Chad Campbell. Yeah.

Who was, I guess, like a top player at the time to be considered on the team that just didn't fit maybe your personality types or what you had currently going? Was there, was there, I don't remember controversy around somebody not getting picked? A couple guys were mad at me, but there wasn't controversy, and nobody knew this until I wrote the book

after the call cracking the code. And these are business principles applied to a sporting event. It's really kind of cool. But the way I did it in the end, and I hemmed it hot a little bit, but we had green light personalities for each pod that didn't make the team.

And I let the three guys who are in the pod, because I secured the three pods. I picked Strictor to go into this one pod because Ben Curtis I think made it and oh, it's Stuart Sink. So I let those three decide only between two players. Verplank and Chad Campbell were the green lights that I thought their personalities fit that pod. The Michelson's pod, with Justin Latter-Nanth and he Kim, they had six choices of green light personality types that could go in there.

So those three got together. They looked at the six names. I told them if you choose outside the six names, I give you, I'll explain to you why you're wrong. But you decide out of these six names and they picked Hunter Mayhem. Perfect. The burden was off me.

Furek and Kenny Perry wanted Bomber, J.B. Holmes. was off me. Furik and Kenny Perry wanted bomber, JB Holmes. It was perfect. So it was really a green light fest in the end. We avoided the caution and we had no red light personality types where they would just clash. And Ron's philosophy was in a pressure situation like mine do better. People that think the same. People that organized their stock grow by collar, they should be together. Okay. Yeah. Break that's definitely was breaking the mold. And I

think it was it was needed at the time. Most definitely, I think it's kind of modified versions of it is what it's changed. It's changed. It's changed. I still four picks, I think, Watson wanted three because he wanted you to get there on merit. I'm not sure what fear it gets three or four, but it's four. It is four. It is four. It is four.

It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four.

It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four.

It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. It is four. fun and he was a great personality and I called him up and I said I think you can be an integral part of our success. First thing I did was ask Carrie Hague, he allowed to control the course and he said, well you'd be the first one to ever do it. And I said well they control it on us. They control it on us at the bell free. And so I took it. And you know what the other day Tony Jacqueline was with me when I was with Nicholas. I told you about Nicholas some of the things Nicholas said but Tony, I said, did you guys control the course? Come on, be honest, and he says, of course we did, and we all busted that laugh, and I felt vindicated by that. So I was the only American captain, and all those rider cups were getting beat that wanted to

control the course. That surprised me. But anyway, the philosophy was, if I had guys that drove it dead straight, I'd have some big rough. if I had guys that bombed it and it sprayed Well, you know, they're great iron players. I want them to be able to get to the green and judge a fire if they had to and it turns out we had more bombers Setting the team markers up was important because you know you control the the bombers Safety if they miss hit was built into every bunker every corner to carry and It's just was smart. I thought it was you know, you control the controllables and they allowed that to be a controllable All you can do is control the controllables if nothing else for you and so I took a control the controllables Mark Wilson was great There was a tree limb on 16

boot jbe homes said to all in brown, all in brown radios me. See, my, my assistance, I had all in with the red necks. I had, um, stocked in with the steady supportive guys, and I had Raymond with the aggressive guys. It makes sense, right? Their personalities were green lights for each group, but they couldn't talk to the players during the matches. They can only talk to them during the practice rounds. Well, anyway, all in radios me. He was, hey, Zinger, you know that giant tree over there to the left on 16? I said, yeah, he said, there's a tree out there about 300. He said, it's about 300 yards out. And there's a limb up there about 20 or 30 feet in the

air that JB Holmes thinks could be in his way. And I laughed. I said, no way, bro, we can't even reach that tree. So we laughed about it. And I called Mark Wilson right away. I laughed, I said, no way, bro, we can't even reach that tree. So we laughed about it. And I called Mark Wilson right away. I said, hey, Mark, apparently there's a tree limb over there on 16. He goes, Zanger, old and just called me. I already got some guy on it. We're cutting that thing out right now. That's how that went, dude.

And we loved it. Oh, man. He said two trees out because of online stuff that guys didn't like. Wow, man. He put two trees out because of the online stuff that guys didn't like. Wow, limbs, not trees, but limbs. I remember Justin Rose kind of complaining a bit about the pin setup at the Ryder Cup at Hazelteen

just that he felt like they were kind of in the middle. He compared it actually to a Pro Am, the pin positions. Did you do anything like with whole locations or anything like that, to that detail? Of course, and not only that, but my philosophy was that Europe knows how to play match play more than we do. In match play, you have to attack every flag, dude.

And I just looked at our team and I thought, these guys, Europe's gonna practice in all the corners, which they did. They practiced in all the corners at Vahala, and I'm sure they did at Hazelteen too. Never put it in the corner, put it right in the middle. All you gotta do is find straight up the hill, and you got every putt red.

And so I'd random up the middle as best I could. Vahala was tricky, because some of the greens are put in three segments. So you gotta back right, back left in the middle front. And, but for the most part, if I could find, I'd find the middle of that, you know, a little spot. But I don't want any tricky pins for my guys because I wanted them to make birdies.

And I said, we're here to make birdies. We're gonna attack, right, the middle of every green. And they did it again. Davis is smart, you know, if Michelson's the one that loved that more than anybody, he thought it was brilliant. You know how aggressive he is. But, you know, Michelson's the one

constant. He's been at every rider cup since our rider cup. And Michelson basically is the guy that's demanding the philosophy of the three four man teams, the whole pins, I guess, and all that stuff. And now they have a little click going, which is, I think, it saved the Ryder Cup. You know, if you are an assistant, you're pretty much gonna be a captain eventually, two to four years.

And we never did that. We just randomly willing, Ili picked Watson out of here and so and so out of there. It was different every year for our players. It's the same every year for our players now. It's the same every year, and that makes a big difference. You got a guy who's a captain and a couple assistants. Those assistants are going to be captains. They all know how to do it.

We have a formula. Jacqueline formulated a formula for them. And I guess I did it for us. Do you, maybe you have too much insight info on it and can't share it, but do you have prognostications for what the future captains are going to look like in the coming years? Just look at who the assistants are. The order, do you know who's going to be in the...

No, I don't know. They didn't even ask me about Furek. I never get asked who you think should be the next captain. Except for when Davis got picked for 2012, I lobbied for Davis. Was it 2012? 2016? No, not 2012, I didn't lobby for him. I lobbied for him in 2016. They were going to go somewhere else.

And, you know, once again, go back to Ron a little bit. He had the idea of this PGA pedigree. Now, important that is. And Davis is part of the pedigree. Stas is a member of the PGA of America and all that. He's won the PGA championship. Why are you going outside of that? You got to, the PGA of America has the same system in place now, or they've always had in place that the Ryder Cup team has now assistant assistant, Captain Treasurer, Secretary, whatever, present, boom, boom, same system now. But I lobbied hard for Davis to be the captain 2016 because they were getting ready to go another way.

But other than that, they didn't call me and say, who do you think the captain should be for 20? It's like, you're, see you. Yeah. See, I had always pictured striker in 2020. I think that looks likely with that going to whistling straights. And I said Tiger in 22 and fill at Beth Page in 24. But some people are correct me and say, now Phil's going to be before that.

Probably. And I just don't know the sequence of order and how they're thinking. And now they have a lot of captains. And I don't have input. I'm not in that click. I'm just telling you, but I know that there are guys that could and should be captains. You know, how come Justin Leonard doesn't get a nod

or a look? He played a lot of Ryder cups. He's a hero of one, but he's out pretty much and same with Stuart St. Can ever be a captain. It just doesn't feel like it. It feels like it's been taken over by another group, but that group is great. Yeah.

And I'm happy where the Ryder Cup is. It's interesting and cool to see Tiger and Phil invest in it the way they have from both of playing and a leadership standpoint. Their legacy in the Ryder Cup was gonna be something very different than if they went for the next five or so, their leadership towards that,

I think leaves their legacy a little bit different than it would have been. 100% and I really think that pod system helped their relationship because I think Phil is the one constant and he's kept selling it and he demanded it in 2012. They did it. They should have won. They're up by four points it in 2012. They did it. They should have won.

They're up by four points going to Sunday. They should have won 2012, but the ghost of Sevy paid him a visit. But I think that's the only way that Tiger and Phil really were going to get together is they were bonded by this four-man group system. And I just think it really helped their relationship in the end.

And Phil, of course, it's hard not to get along with Phil after a while. Tiger you know he doesn't care one way or the other if you get along with him but I think Phil he wants people to like him. All right guys that's going to wrap it for this section of our conversation with Paul Azinger. We actually continued talking a bit longer but covering almost the rest of the conversation covered the US open. We're actually going to clip that audio and save it for our US Open Preview podcast, rather than split this episode into two parts. I know this one ran a bit long as it was. So stay tuned for that. Thanks a ton to Paul for the time. Sorry that kind of abruptly, but stay tuned for more from Paul on our US Open preview and we'll have a lot more fun stuff around that time.

So cheers and thank you for listening. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most.