No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 165: Gil Hanse

Episode Date: September 7, 2018

Gil Hanse joins us from Aronimink Golf Club at the 2018 BMW Championship to discuss the restoration work his team performed there, how it will play for professionals, and what the goal of the restoration... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 165: Gil Hanse appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. hand skill. How are you? I'm great. Thanks for having me on. Are you podcasted out yet? No, not yet. I mean, as long as we're going to have fun with it, I'm totally glad. I mean, you can never have too much fun. There's a lot of topics we to discover or to uncover and unpack with you. And we did a few too much at dinner last night, I think. And we're like, all right, we got to save some for the

podcast. But for those who haven't been to a ronomic, kind of take us there, take us through the process of what was the proposal like? How did you get into getting the work to restore this golf course? And what was the idea in mind behind the restoration? Yeah, I think, I mean, it's a home game for us for literally 15 minutes from here. So John Gosling, the superintendent, came to us at one point and said, listen, we're going to have to rebuild the bunkers before we have the championships here just more from a practical standpoint, the sand and the liners, et cetera, had gotten past their due date. And when he asked us if we'd want to be involved, well, Ron Pritchard had been the architect here who did a great job. In fact, I said this to the members,

you know, the second most important decision they made was hiring Ron Pritchard. The first was hiring Donald Ross, and we went back when because he got them thinking about restoration. And, you know, ultimately, that was the right direction for them to go. We had over the years had access to a 1929 aerial photo from the Dallan collection down in the Hagling Museum, which for golf geeks like us, it's like a gold mine. I mean, you can find all these great old photographs of Philadelphia golf courses and show that the bunker pattern here was really quite different from what had been put in place. And so Ross's plans indicated

maybe 60 or 70 bunkers, but the actual construction photographs show that there were over 180 bunkers on the golf course. So we talked to John and we said, listen, if we're going to pitch this, why wouldn't we look at restoring what he built as opposed to what he drew? And John was all in. He was excited about it. We had to ultimately convince the membership that that was a good idea, because when they're talking about, well, let's just rebuild our bunkers now. Now it's brave new world. And what do you mean? You got tripled the number of our bunkers. But I think we were able to make a compelling case based on Ross and the history of it. And they got excited about it.

We did the work here in 16 and 17. Yeager Covitch was our point guy on site. So Jim Wagner and I worked with Yeager and John, the superintendent, and we got it all knocked out. So that's how Yeager had all that access to all that information that went on the Friday. All the old videos from the construction here at Aronomic and so on the bunker rebuild it seems to us You know from looking at the pre restoration and and the post that the bunkers are all in the same places There's not necessarily a ton of new bunkers in new places. They just are breaking up bigger bunkers into smaller bunkers

What's kind of a rationale behind that? What how does that affect play or affect anything related to the golf course? I mean, it's more visual from the standpoint of scale and presentation. I think we talk an awful lot internally and now externally about what picture did Ross paint, what picture did Tilling has paint, what picture did Rainer paint, etc. And there was some reason. It's not documented. We don't know why he went pain, et cetera. And there was some reason, it's not documented. We don't know why he went this direction. I mean, there are some theories that, hey, this was William Flynn's town

and Ross realized that he had a great piece of ground to work with, and maybe he was going to do something completely out of the box as far as getting something a little bit more dramatic and trying to work his way into Philadelphia and create his statement. So for whatever reason, because we have photos, there's actually an old video of Ross on site, and he's kind of wandering around. You know how those old videos look like everything moves faster. He looks like a penguin kind of wandering around the sites. And their bunkers clearly in view,

and so he saw it as it was constructed. But for the most part, we did restore some locations. We did move some bunkers down range. Like number two, the dog leg hole, we took, there were basically layers of bunkers. We took the front layer and moved it to the back layer, trying to create areas where it might be a bit of a challenge for primarily for the better playing members. At the time we knew the tour event was coming here, but from the membership perspective, they were like, listen, those guys are coming here once. At the time they didn't know they were going to get the PGA championship, and that can be addressed as we get closer to 27.

They wanted it to play well for a high class ameter, which this club has plenty of. So that's the positioning wherever we moved, bunkers downrange, that tended to fall, where it would affect them. And that's what we were talking about some last night is you, the idea behind the restoration was for the members and it's not for the professionals that come here for really four days. This is kind of a one-time thing.

There are going to be major championships here in the future. But how do you, like, this old classic golf course, it's pretty much maxed out at 7,300 yards. You could potentially build some new teas, but there's not a lot of real estate out there for it. What is your, I guess, your mindset? When you're going through this, knowing that the BMW championship is coming here, how do you bring any of that consideration into a plan that really is for four days, we're

compared to all the other golf that's going to be played on this golf course and challenging these guys? Yeah. I mean, the plan for the four days is pray for it to be dry. Yeah. And so that ultimately it'll be firm. And you know, part of the fairways or wide, the players have said that, but it's the scale that again, it's all back to scale.

The scale that Ross presented on this landscape was a certain way. We tried to really, and you talk about Yeager and his access. He's kind of like an aerial photograph, Savon. He just looked at every little detail, which was great in helping us to restore it as effectively as possible. When you look at the scale, of place of fairways or wide, but if this golf course is firm, the effective width of the fairways is much narrower

because there's a lot of cross slope. And then so then our hope was if this played firm, the guys that have to control the shape of their shot to hold the slopes, and unfortunately, that's not gonna come true this week with all the rain and the humidity we've had, and then you know forecast for rain this weekend

but if you combine firm fairways Significant slopes and you combine that with significant slopes and firm greens now It's a completely different ball game. They've got to think about angles They've got to think about how they attack these holes and you with a soft golf course and as far as they hit it It's it's unfortunately not going to be as relevant. They'll be working to find the pin positions that'll at least challenge them some with the pro shot. There's some ridges out there. There are. I walked around with a couple guys yesterday with Rory McElroy and Webb Simpson just you know as part of their program groups

just walking and talking and listening. And it's interesting. The dialogue that occurs between caddies and players as a run-up to a tournament is fascinating. And I think it helps me to be a better golf course architect as it relates to these players if I can start to kind of listen in. And it's amazing how much they talk about their misses. And where they are, if the pins here are intentionally, I'm gonna play to this spot, et cetera, et cetera. And they factor in the ridges and the mid,

you know, they hate the up and over. You know, that's different. It's difficult for all of us, but for a touring pro, they really just don't want to have to, you know, kind of hit it up over a ridge and then let it figure out how it's gonna die coming down to the hole. So the ridges in the greens definitely caught their attention.

How is it, you know, in looking at this course and you, Tron got to play with Kevin Kisner yesterday and I got to play with Tommy Fleetwood and those guys have a little gap between them and far, as far as distance. I think it's their kind of the some of the stuff that Kisner was saying about the setup. I mean, so he was, he was frustrated because every, I think he, he probably carries it 28, about 280. He's like, man, if I carried it 285, I'd be in the best spot in the planet, you know, on most of these holes, but he's like, it's more frustrating for him because I do one thing if he was just, just knew his line was out to the left, but it's, it's just tempting enough for him to go over those, those bunkers,

like on one six and, uh, like the one on 15 down the right. Like, you know, and then, but it's totally different golf course. You were saying for Rory and Dustin and Tiger, you know, they're carrying it. You carry it 300 and, you know, you're you're taking lines that he's like, I don't know, that doesn't even occur to me. Yeah. And then that Web Simpson had the exact points. He was talking about the same thing. It's like they're right in play for where I hit the shot and not for the longer hitters. And he was asking why we did that.

And I said, it wasn't intentional. It wasn't for you. That's where Ross had the bunkers. And when you think about the architects of that era, they would cut the bunkers into up slopes. And so if you're running out of up slope or you have to, in order to fit it in for Rory or Dustin, you got to put it on a downslope And that's not going to look right there and I got to see it and it's certainly is difficult to build

Now we were talking specifically about the one on 15 and we're standing looking over it And I said well if we're going to build another bunker to challenge those guys We'd have to kill the tree that's right there because we'd be cutting the roots out and destroying it when we actually build the bunker So yeah, we would have never thought of that. And so, you know, there's a lot of these practical considerations for why we didn't do it. But the principle focus is that trying to put back what Ross built, and Ross wasn't thinking about Roy McElroy carrying it 310. Is taking trees out a tough cell a lot of times these memberships?

It is. It's the toughest thing we ever run into. You know, any single club we deal with. It's just that's the people get emotional. They get that's more subjective thing. When we come in, we try to be objective about it. We've done these five criteria that we assign to trees and we look at them throughout the entire property.

It's history, it's aesthetics, it's safety, it's playability, and agronomy. There's a rationale behind each one of those topics that we put to a tree, and if we make the recommendation for it to come out based on one of those, and I think it's people start to think about it, they realize, okay, the other makes sense for this makes sense. There's some people who will never budge off of that,

and they're gonna chain themselves to the trees, et cetera. But from the standpoint, if you're thinking about, listen, it's a golf course, it's not an arboretum. Some tough decisions have to be made. But I will say that we have never had a club come back to us at the end of a project and say, you took down too many. Yes, it never happens.

It's got to be kind of the thing. You don't really fully realize until they're gone, how great it is to be able to see other stuff. And you never look at a course and are like, man, I wish there were more trees in the way here like of viewing other holes and stuff like that. Exactly. So kind of back on that topic about the distance

and the bunkers, I think kind of what we were discussing with Roy and where those guys are hitting it is, they are able to take risk out of their T-Shots by just grabbing driver, by hitting it really far. And I think, you know, you're trying to restore this golf course. You're not trying to necessarily set it up for these guys. Let's say, say something like TBC Boston where you are specifically making changes to try to challenge, longer hitters, try to challenge the top professionals.

What are the kind of considerations that you make in that, in that to try to limit guys' ability to eliminate trouble by just hitting it really far. Yeah, I think we saw last year on number 12, which wasn't very well received, is we tried to limit distance. We limit distance by basically ending the fairway and we created a quote unquote natural land form

that it seemed to work in. And I actually liked the TV shots from behind 13T, you can see the ridge extending across. And it fit from a new England perspective, but really you almost have to end the fairway. And I think the from the back T was 340 as to where things would end. But then we also tried to limit or make their gauge, their accuracy by having the bunkers in the center of the fairway. And that didn't go over very well. So, you know, I'm looking at 18. And when we designed this, so the other thing I have to think about is the major restoration of that golf course occurred in 2006.

You know, we were talking about at that time, you know, 295 to 300 was a massive hit. Well, now those bunkers that are at 292.95 to $300 are relevant for the longer hitters, and they're right in the Kizner, the Web Simpson, the guys that, so, you know, I would say of looking at that golf course, we may have to go back in and start to readjust and move things down range, but you don't ever want to, you know, modulate distance as an advantage out of the entire golf course. You want to let the bombers hit away on certain holes, and then other holes you take away the advantage or you put everybody in the same spot,

or you reward accuracy, which is really the thought process behind 12 was, okay, if we're going to put everybody in the same spot, let's make them have to actually hit that spot. And maybe some of the guys who don't hit it as far but are more accurate can get there, as opposed to the other guys pulling driver. And we've seen, you know seen DJ and Brooks Keppka, I mean, some of the best driving

have ever seen at the golf ball. Normally the thought process was, okay, they wanna hit driver, go ahead. The spectrum of the way they're going to hit the shot that chances are they're gonna hit a worse shot with their driver, but the way these guys are hitting driver now, it's almost like they're hitting a three wood from an accuracy perspective. So I think you just have to look at basically cutting off where they can go, and it's

sad to have to say that, but you can try to tempt them to do things, but they're smart. I mean, they're going to basically, if there's a carry they don't feel comfortable with, they're going to just hit three and take it out of play. And they're still only hitting an eight iron instead of a wedge or a nine iron instead of a gap wedge. And for them, it doesn't really matter. Interesting conversations we had yesterday with Rory. I said, what'd you hit into 12 at TPC Boston?

He said, well, on the Sunday Monday, it was the wind was in a little bit. And he said, actually, I had a five iron, then a four iron, and turned to his caddy, and I said, is that the longest club he's hit all year into a par four, not counting like, you know, Carnu's steward, the wind or something. He said, yeah, that's it. He said, other than before that whole, it was like a seven iron, it was the longest. And Belrieve had, he said it was a Belrieve and they had like, you know, 530 yard par for it. It was sopping wet. Yeah, exactly.

Well, I guess part of, and I've listened to your conversation, some of the Andy and Red, some of his stuff over the Friday about how I don't understand the reaction to that bunker on 12 and that if a bunker, if a bunker, I forget with the exact phrases, but like if a bunker is directly where you want to hit it, like that's a well placed hazard. And why, why, I'm not, I just not sure why the PGA tour reacts and negative feedback from a player about a setup. That's challenging them.

Like, look how, we just talked about how easy this game is for them relatively speaking. Mark Brodie was on the podcast a couple months ago and said there's a misnomer about the longest hitters and that's their long, that they are long and wild. They are long and incredibly accurate. I don't know how you stop a golf course and just in talking about here,

700, 300 yards, nowhere to go and there's gonna be a major here in nine years. What's next with technology? Where is the game going? Where does any of this stop? And how does that work into what you do? Like it's getting, it's going to, it's already gotten pretty crazy. And it's only going to get worse.

I have a feeling. Yeah, I don't know where it goes. I mean, part of the, I mean, it's, it's all the different things. It's obviously a technology, the balls, the clubs, etc. It's the fitness, which, you, which some people poo poo that, but they're better athletes, and they're working hard at things. So maybe it was telling me yesterday

about this new drill, a guy was working on with ropes in order to try and increase their club head speed by three or four miles per hour for a guy that's already killing it. And you look at, and I think the fitting, I think the opportunity for these guys, because what they're trying to do is repeat. I mean, they just want to be able to repeat and get a repetitive swing over and they work

really hard to get that. And if now you can figure out what that repetitive swing is, and then Taylor made all of your technology to do so that your shafts, your heads, everything is to optimize that repetitive swing. That's a serious advantage. You can track minute all the infrastructure and stuff that's there and you know that's only going to get better. So that's part of the equation as well. So it's not just as simple as rolling the ball back. I think there's somebody, and obviously some ruling bodies need to take a sort of incredible look

at it because it becomes the difference between the elite golfer and the rest of us, even though the elite professional versus the elite amateur, the gap is widening, widening. And so I'm been a proponent of bifurcation, I think we need to look at it because you don't wanna take the advantages that it occurred to the average guy like myself. I mean, why I'm making any harder, we're trying to grow the game.

And if all of a sudden you make it harder and now people go away from it, that's just not a good thing. But we do think we need to look at how the elite golfer approaches the game. They both spin again, too. Yeah. I think it would be great to have the guys have to shape shots.

I mean, part of what we did at D'Areal and the restoration, renovation of the Blue Monster was that we restored the angles that Dick Wilson had put in place where if you don't shape your ball you're gonna hit it through the fairway into a set of bunkers on the far side. So everything was angled and the guys went crazy because they're not used to doing that and they don't want to be told they have to do it. And I think that's part of the reaction to the fairway bunkers on number 12 was that you know since they were little kids they're always told down the middle hit it long, hit it straight, hit it long, hit it straight. Now, if somebody's put something really horrible and penal, which those bunkers were, they were tough. Guys weren't going to hit a five iron out of them and get on the green. They were going to have to, I think, I learned the phrase

chip out bunkers from some of the blickers. That was I never heard that before. But, you know what, it's a penalty and it's intended to be. So I think once you push the envelope in a certain way to have a reaction, you would expect a counter reaction. The fact that there was much vitriol was a little bit surprising to me. But ultimately, the players of the show, not the golf course, not the golf course architect.

And if the tour feels strongly enough that we've done something that inhibits their ability to put on a good performance, then you're going to pay the price. But if I remember right from reading Andy's article, it said, the fairway, the gap between the centerline bunker and the left side of the fairway was one yard wider than the fairway was previously to that bunker being put in. Yeah. It is. But it's, you know what was interesting too, Jim Wagner,

and I were talking about this after watching, was that golfers still hit the ball down the right hand side, even though that angle was terrible into the green. They didn't, even though they had 70 yards to hit it into, they weren't trying to get up on the left with a higher elevation, better angle into it, et cetera, et cetera. So you can lead a horse to a lot of them. Yeah, I mean, you can train. you can lead a horse to water. I mean, I'm gonna make a change.

Well, it's just in back to the technology what you're saying though. We're also kind of in all the optimization that's going on. We also are kind of starting to see the fruits of the one, the class of people that Tiger has influenced coming into the game and two people that have been training on this track man and all of this optimization

from the time they're a kid. So that, I mean, there is a just a slew of guys that are going to come out, just Cameron Champs style, just start launching the ball. It's going to, it's going to become, and already has started to become a, you know, how these guys, a test of the optimization of just those guys. It's going to be a kind of a formula that's going to wrap the all-follows young players. It's going to, I don't know how you stop it. I grew up, I think that the key thing we talked about firmness is that, you know,

it's predictability. You know, they want a predictable outcome. They wanna know that I've got this yardage and that's the predictable outcome of hitting this shot is going to be this. If architecture provides unpredictability, either through sightlines or through locations or things are a little bit awkward or they don't quite

see what's going on That's one way to defend the golf courses if the maintenance provides unpredictability where you're not sure if the ball is gonna Check after one bounce or two bounces because it's firm and it's fast That's an important part of how we defend these golf courses as well. So as much as we can be unpredictable Which you know some people view as well that's bad much as we can be unpredictable, which, you know, some people view as well, that's bad architecture because of what I can't see the bottom of the flag. So making them play it on the ground. Right. You know, that's another variable. These guys can be so precise through the air, but once you're making them play it on the ground,

it's a totally different ball. Absolutely. And I think you look at great old golf courses, and I think that recovery is my mind the soul of a golf architecture because even the touring pros, they only hit about 10 out of 14 fairways or 9 out. So it's when they miss what are they faced with? And if those recovery options are compelling enough or challenging enough that it impacts their thought process when they get on the tea. It's like, God, there's no way I can miss this right because I'm dead because trying to get on to that green with the slope, et cetera, et cetera. So if we can try to create golf holes that

where the recovery still allows them to display their skill, but boy, they've got to hit a great shot. That's something. The other thing we've talked about a lot about is on Part 5. I mean, it's like it's a God-given rate for a tour player to be able to get on a Part 5 and 2. Well, if you don't hit a good shot, we want to make sure you're not going to get on into. But if you have the opportunity to go, Gemini talking off a lot of you,

you better hit an exceptional golf shot. Not just a good one, not just a very good one, but it's got to be exceptional for you to get it be rewarded with an Eagle. The 18th green at TPC Boston had them scratching their heads for a long time because they hate that misleaf. Yeah. And every player you talk to about is like, man, I'm standing out in the fairway. I'm thinking, God don't go left, don't go left, because it's short grass. So, you know, I can, I can get, I'm not going to get up and down a lot, but I'm not going to lose a ball. I'm not going to blade it out of a bunker.

If we put bunkers over there, they'd be hitting it all day long. It's how do you provide challenges that are going to be perceived as more playable for the average guy, the member of there, but still super challenging for them if they're trying it. I've heard a few players say, well, that greens, you know, I had a great shot in there and it kind of bounced over. Well, it wasn't a great shot. It needed to be an exceptional shot.

If that green was not receptive to a wedge for a third shot, then there's something wrong with it. But the fact that you have to hit a great shot in order to hold it with your second shot in a part five, I think that's what golf architecture should be as it relates to these guys. It's true risk of war that shot too. It reminds me of the 16th hole at Sawgrass a little bit too.

It's like, all right, if you want to take on this trouble to the right, that's your shot at the green. But if you bail left, it's not easy. You got to take this on at some point when are you going to do it and watching guys bail left it in like a Rafa Cabr Brabeo, bailed left on the, I'm not sure he was trying to, but he went left with his approach. And then I think chipped it too far into the bunker,

and then he made bogey from there, just cause it's such a penal place to be. But yeah, if they're just bunkers back there, those guys are getting up and down all the time. So, right. 2018 has been another historic year for Callaway in the driver category. And when it comes to performance, the proof is in the jailbreak technology that has made

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All those courses have a lot of that's that's it. That's how those courses are defined. Well, it's an interesting thing that. That's what all those courses are to find. Well, it's an interesting thing that you get into. It really dawned on me walking Oakmont with Paul Azinger in preparation for the telecast. We were on the fifth hole and I said to Paul, what do you think about blind tee shots? He goes, I hate him.

I said, well, what about this one? He goes, that's okay. I said, well, why is this one okay? He said, well, it's been here forever and it's an old golf course. And you know, you'll figure out where to go. And he said, well, wait a second, what if we had designed this golf hole? And left, he said, I'd hate it. He's like, well, why?

He said, because you could have changed it. He said, you chose to keep it blind. Whereas instead, you could have, you know, cut it out, taken, you know, pans and bulldozers and scraped it. And as a result, you're an SOB because you left it this way. The old guys didn't have any choice

so you just accept it and go forward. And so I think when you draw a comparison to the open championship courses, they're like, oh, these courses have been here for hundreds of years. Well, I'm not gonna complain about a bunker in the middle of the fairway, but as soon as Gil Hansen and Jim Wagner put one in the middle of the fairway, well those guys, they suck. And there's one of the things we talked about, you know, it's easy to say that

Gil Hans sucks. It's much harder to say that Donald Ross sucks or AW telling has sucks. And so, you know, that's just, that comes with the- Because those guys were around today. Do you think they would be as we're around today, do you think they would be playable just, oh, like these guys are just extremists. Like, no, I think they'd be, you know, I honestly believe that, you know, when all of this, the history of golf architecture gets rewritten in 50, 70, 100 years,

I think that Bill Koran Ben-Crenshaw will be mentioned right there with those guys. I think Tom Doke will be mentioned as one of the guys like a Ross or a Tillingast, et cetera. So I think that those guys would have been, you know, in cooots with Bill and Ben and Tom and, you know, they'd have been regarded in that light in this day and age.

And they'd have been creative. And one of the great things about what they did, it was always all about golf. It wasn't about real estate sales. It wasn't about hiding car paths. It was all about creating, compelling golf holes in the natural landscape. And how do you do that and how do you challenge people? And they'd have figured out at this point in time based on the technology, just like they did

back in their day, you know, when you're switching from hickory to steel shafts when you, you know, the ball's changing, putters changing, all that they had to react to those things in their time. And they did it it and they did it greatly. Broadly asking, what is your mindset towards rough? Like unpredictable rough, not consistent. Again, it gets back to that whole predictability thing. I think that rough as it relates to, if you know that if you hit it in there, all you're going to do is chip outside ways, then you play the T-Shot with a defensive mindset. And you play the golf course in a more defensive setup.

You probably take less chances with driver, et cetera. If you think, hey, I might get away with this. I might have a flyer, but I might be a have a shot or I might get a great break or I might be dead. Then you play with a more offensive mindset. And I think that that's a good thing. Yeah, I was just the rough on the right of number four out here that the whole fairway slopes left to right.

And I don't know if it's intentional from the setup, was the thickest probably we saw on the entire course yesterday. And that was, some of the most penal rough, I think I've ever hit it. Hit a shot, I was 10 yards off the fairway and couldn't get the ball out of it. It was interesting penalty, but it seems to be,

that seems to be the answer to a lot of, from a PJ Tour standpoint of, you got to make these guys feel punished for missing fairways, especially when they're as wide as they are. Is there, do you see a major gap in the importance of rough at the professional level versus the importance of rough at the amateur midhandy cap level? Well, I think it's all dictated by what result do you want? I mean, if the result is that we want these guys to shoot six or seven under par at this golf

course, then rough has to be a critical component to it. You know, if we don't really care what they shoot, and it's more interesting to watch them have wide fairways and try and figure out which side of the fairway they want to come into. And as long as those angles are relevant, I think that that's much more interesting to watch and more compelling. So I think it just all runs back to what circumstances are you trying to create, what sort of challenge and rough can be a critical component in that. I mean, we're going to see, you know, I think part of a lot of criticism about

the setups for US opens, but we're seeing a variety of setups, which I love. I think that what Mike Davis is doing is focusing on the architecture of the golf course first and foremost. You know, Oakmont was narrow because Oakmont's always been narrow and Penel, Shinnecock was wide because Flynn had it wide and it was bouncy, et cetera. We're going to see Pebble Beach is obviously going to be, we know what Pebble is wing foot is going to be narrow. So we're going to see over a period of time all these different setups. And I like that, but it is more reflective of the architecture and what they're expecting. So you recently re-did Wingfoot both courses at Wingfoot. Now, is there any part of

that process where you come in and say, you know, I think these fairways could be a little wider and do they just say, no, it's going to be narrow. How does that? Because it's, it's, it's, that's never going to happen at wingflade, especially because they, I think they take a lot of pride in that being a very challenging goal. Of course, we, we do, we, we've had those conversations. And generally, what we were able to accomplish is we were able to widen the fairways back where the members hit it. So maybe in the 200 to 250 range off the off the tee, the back T's, so give a little bit more room, a place where a tour player would never really think to hit, you know, they don't want anything to do with long irons into those greens. And then keep the narrow nature up where the players, you know, in that sort of 280 to

330 range, keep it narrow. Talking about the US open, how do you like doing the telecast? I love it. It's fun. It's a commitment of time, but I enjoy doing a deep dive into other golf courses. When we get to Wingfoot, it'll be the first time it's a golf course that we're involved in, but being able to study Oakmont and Chinatown and Chambers Bay and Aaron Hills, and be able to talk to Robert Trent Jones Jr. and talk to my curbs in Dana Fry and Ron Witton

about what were they trying to do on these modern golf course that have hosted US Opens has been fascinating to me to learn and listen and you know I can offer my opinions and it's fun. And it's a, I mean you learn a lot, you guys are used to this, but you know the first time a Chambers Bay ever sat in the chair and had the headphones on, we were live. Because all of the rehearsals were Joe Buck and Greg Norman, we sat and watched

because it's a whole new venture for everybody. It's a new team and I'm sitting there and I'm petrified. And those lights are hot. Lights are hot and you're like, oh my God. And then all of a sudden you hear Mark Loomis, like, okay, we're going to go here and the thing that I had to learn quickly. And I got, you know, it was interesting. A lot of people gave me praise for it.

It was like, oh, he's very concise. He's very quick. He just kind of gets in and gets out. Well, that's because I was scared to death. And you know, the first time it hit me was we were, Mikkelson was hitting a shot into like number 10. And he and all of a sudden, you're like, oh, Mikkelsen was hitting a shot into like number 10. And he and obviously, and he's like, oh, Mikkelsen's setting it up.

They're setting up the shot. And I've got a comment about the blind nature of the shot. And then I'll send a hair, okay, as soon as the ball hits the green, we're going to three in my year. And so I have to like talk about this really fast because as soon as the ball hits the ground, we're going to another hole in what I'm talking about

because I'm talking about the actual golf hole. It's no longer relevant. So I've learned over the four years that I can linger a little bit longer and talking it's not going to kill the broadcast if it kind of goes into the next one. But I had a lot of fun this year with Shane Bacon and Brad Faxx. And I think I've heard from a lot of people that it was a good, three of us were good together. So I'm hopeful in the future if they have me back that I'll get to work with those guys again. And that's just kind of a luxury you guys are afforded with how much time you're on the air. Like you can take time out of to, you know, teach people about the golf course you're

going to watch through the entire, I mean, you can watch on TV, but you don't really fully understand what these guys are considering, what they have to think about, what the intentions of the architect were. Like, tuning in and learning something is, like, you know, we all tuning because we want to be entertained, right, but it's like being able to actually learn something and that's like the icing on the cake. Thanks, I appreciate that.

And one of the nice things you're right, because generally when I'm on, nobody's watching, or the leaders are watching. The leaders aren't on the golf course so you can linger, you know, as they get down to crunch time, then obviously it's more appropriate for the talk to be about the action. Sure. The golf course. The people listening to this podcast are also watching. You're really, it's going to be interesting to watch in 2020 when you're, when you're, when you're calling it then to be like, oh, this was just brilliant

restoration work. You're a wonderful placement of the bunkers here. You've also recently been working on the number four course at Pinehurst for people that have never been to Pinehurst or take us through what that project has been like, what was there previously, and what you guys are doing with that golf course. Yeah, I think Tom Passionley and Bob Deadman at the Resort have made a commitment to improving the core,

I mean, the entire Resort, but focusing from a golf perspective at the core, which is, you know, courses one through five. And obviously, after Bill and Ben did the great work they did on course number two, it's set a standard for what golf should be at the resort. And I think that they felt like they needed to look at one of the golf courses for the potential for an update. And so number four has, by all accounts, the best topography on the entire resort.

It's really guys an opportunity to be something special. It, the previous iteration have been done by Tom Fasio back in the late 90s, and with the success of the restoration of this Carolina sand hills, look and feel that Bill and Ben had done the thought was why don't we look at that as a model. So we took that and we're excited to be involved.

We restored a lot of the sandy areas. We reconnected the landscape because a lot of the shaping that had been done sort of didn't fit the landscape. So some of the valleys, the ridges were valleys were in vice versa. So we put all of that back together. Things got a really nice natural feel to it.

It's meant to be a companion course to course number two. It's not a tribute. We didn't try to out do Ross and build greens. Like it would be stupidest thing we could have ever done is like the best examples right there. So, but we did let Ross influence what we did and we looked at maybe some of his earlier works where you've got slopes that feed on to greens.

We took some of his bunker placements, but we're excited about it. It opens in about three weeks and actually I'm at two weeks now. And yeah, it'll be interesting here what people think. Take us to take us through the process of how it seems to be this project was different from how you saw it in the place, how you did the grasping from a hole-to-hole basis. How did that work? Yeah, so what we did was we blew up three holes and we started working on those

and they were the lowest ones. So we needed, we had the most exposure to damage, potentially from round offs, et cetera. And then once we got those shaped, we strip sod off of the next two or three holes or four holes that we were gonna go work on. And we moved that sod and put them on the three holes that were finished.

And then we did those next. So we basically leapfrogged around the property and utilize the sod. So it was down there last Friday, Bob Farron, Kevin Robinson, and Alano, and we've got that place as mature as any new golf course I've ever seen. I mean, it was the quickest grow-in. It was great growing. It stabilized the site because you guys, it's hilly. And so with the amount of rain we've had this summer, if we hadn't sotted it, there's no way that golf course opens in two weeks. Just not possible. So I don't remember if it was Bob Farron or Jim Wagner who came up with that thought of, you know,

how we kind of leapfrog around the property, but it was a great idea. It saved a lot of money, saved a lot of effort. And I think it gives you a mature golf course right from the start. And where did you live while you were down there? Yeah, we slummed it. It's a funny build-court and I always joke around because they they always come in and do like the first course or the second course when there's nothing there like a stream song. And then we come in and we get to live in the lap of luxury. The resort Bob Demen, they bought the Donald Ross's house. luxury. So the resort Bob Demen, they bought the Donald Ross's house. And so Tracy and I got to live for two months in Dornock cottage and yeah, it was it's the most meaningful thing that anyone's

ever done for us. I mean, we pick up and move a lot and we we spend a lot of time on site, but to be able to do it in Pinehurst and living in his house, I still goose bumps. How many days a year do you spend on a bulldozer? I'm hopeful it's 150 plus. So you're out there shaping it. That's part of the job I love. Yeah, it's a fun part. You get to listen to music.

It's no secret. I'm a big fan of music. And it's your bubble. Turn off the phone. Be creative, build stuff, and then, you know, between what Jim Wagner does, which he's the most talented shaper I've ever seen, and then we've got all the cavemen working kind of behind us.

So we do a little bit more editing of their work, which is, you know, we don't have to do a ton because they're all talented. So yeah, that whole construction process is fun. But yeah, as long as my back holds up, I'm going to stick my dozer as long as I can. You mentioned stream song and you just had the black course opened up recently. What's the feedback? What was kind of the idea going into it and what's the feedback been like on that project?

So it's been, it's been frankly a little bit mixed and I don't know necessarily that people don't like the course, it's a little bit misunderstood. That's what that's my takeaway as well, is that people just don't quite understand what we were doing around the green. So the original remit was, we've got these two golf courses here, Red and Blue, which are great and they're purposely intertwined and routed together and there's more of a compact feel to them, but really big land forms that distinguish the golf courses. We want to build something big as a standalone over here, Rich Mac, the founder of StreamSong, said, we want to be able, if we want, if we, there was no mandate, we're going to have

this tournament, but we want to host any tournament. So that necessarily, you know, getting back to our conversation, there are teas that can play at 7,600 yards, and he said he wanted it to be a challenge. So we looked at it and we thought, okay, as a resort golf course, what can we do to make it challenging yet and still keep it very playable. So the scale of the golf course is big. We're hopeful that wide fairways, but they're still relevant angles. And what we thought was, what if we get the surrounds of the greens? And this is something that we talked a lot with Mark Parsons in a castle steward was, what

if the actual greens themselves are challenging, but the surrounds are really where you've got to golf your ball, but you can do it in a way where you can put where you can chip where you can hit all these different creative shots. But if you miss, you know, you could miss pretty big if you're not really paying attention, but your balls not in your pocket, you're still engaged, you're still playing. So in order to compound that, we decided to grasp

the surrounds the same as the greens because we wanted that really tight and then it got down to, well, what if we just mowed the entire thing, but we only pin certain sections? Well, that's great in theory as long as the crew only pin certain sections. Apparently, early on, there were a few air pins that were outside of where we had ever intended them to be. Where the sprinklers are on those greens too,

it's really cool. I mean, you'll be 20 yards outside the sprinkler and it's still moat as green. Yeah, and it's wild. And so we felt like that presentation would fit the scale, but American golfers who've not really spent any time in overseas and not, you know, they, they want definition and they feel lost

if there's no definition. And when you feel lost on a golf course and maybe the results don't quite go your way, you're not gonna blame yourself. So you're gonna sort of say, well, this is either dumb or I don't get it. I think the caddies are doing a better job of explaining to people what the expectations are. I personally think it was a very interesting way to go about trying to make a course more

challenging to provide a real emphasis on the short, as opposed to, you know, we could have put lakes all over the place. Yeah. We could have put bunkers everywhere and you'd have been miserable out there. And but I guess maybe some people have, if they feel like they've foreputted even though they actually haven't, they might feel more misery associated with that. That's when they kind of clicked to me when you said, yeah, would you rather I put a bunker here or a water here and you lost your ball or would you rather I put a bunker here or water here and you lost your ball? Or would you rather have four-butted?

Yeah. It was funny. We were both long of the second green there. And, you know, he played one through the air and I bumped a hybrid in there and we both hit good shots, but it was completely different ways of doing it. Well, and Jim and I talk a lot about it. It's like, listen, we sometimes we build courses and they're polarizing. And we'd actually rather have people have strong reactions,

both ways, because there are some people who are like, oh my god, it's the most fun I've ever had in my life. I didn't lose a golf ball. I had a blast and there are other people like, I just don't get it. And you know what? We build courses that in our minds, we think require multiple playings

to really start to figure it all out. And if people are gonna after one time go, yeah, I'm not interested, I don't get it. I'm not gonna try to learn. Then they're not gonna like our work. And that's okay. I have to get to that point where you just understand that we're proud of it, the clients happy.

And if some people either don't get it or don't like it, that's, sorry. What are the considerations like between doing, you do a lot of mostly restoration work on private golf clubs, but designing and restoring a private golf club versus something like stream song, which is a resort course for the public,

are there different considerations that have to go into how you design it, set it up, and whatnot. Not really, I mean, there are some, but we try, we're just trying to build good golf courses. And whether the golf course is private or public or resort, you might get a little more, like a Hoopy Match Club is, you know,

a course that we've just finished and is opening this fall. And, but it's predicated on match play. So we've felt like, you know, we all talk about strategic golf holes and we, you know, everybody's these strategic or penal, but we kind of forget about that third school is heroic. And so I think a hoopy has, you know,

a good match between strategic and heroic. And there's some things. If you want to take it on, I mean, talk about risk reward, it's all or nothing. And because it's a match. So if we're having a match and I'm not worried, and Jim and I looked at it, if we're not worried about somebody writing a 10 on their scorecard,

all they're saying is I lost the hole and we move on. That's liberating from a design standpoint. So unless you get an owner like Michael Wall-Rath at a hoopie who's looking to do something completely different, we're trying to build as good a golf course as we can. And we try not to segregate out between the style or the, you know, whether it's private or public. Some of those pictures from O'Hoopie,

like I felt like I was looking at Kingston Heath on the sand belt. It looks really cool. It's a fun compliment. I appreciate it. Well, yeah, take us, you mentioned some of the things that are considered there, but what makes the course a great match play course?

I think it's, it's, think it's within your skill set, you have to make choices. If you're a really good player, your choices are something different than a guy who's a seven or eight handicap, and his choices are different than a 15 handicap. I think if we can provide different avenues and different ways for people to be successful, and hey, if I'm getting a shot, I'm going to think about this hole in a different way than if I'm not. And I think that that's ultimately we've tried to build a golf course where the thought

process and how you work your way through it is different for every class of player. And a lot of it, you guys know as well as I do. When you're playing a match, if you're three up, you're playing a whole different than if you're three down. And so if we can build a golf course that allows people to try to answer questions in a way relating to their skill set, but also to their position in the match, then I think that's a pretty cool course.

What whole stream song black do you get the most negative feedback on it. It's probably the stretch 3, 4, 5 is about the hardest stretch. And Jim and I do. I think it's good architecture, but I don't think it's imperative for every golf course to be set up this way, but we did it in Rio. We've kind of created that situation in TPC Boston where we like sort of stretches like there's an ebb and flow and there's certain times where you just know you've got three hard holes in a row and you just got to play good golf. But then you come out the other side of it and you're like, okay, now I got a chance to do something.

And the Olympic course was definitely set up in that fashion where we wanted guys and the men and the women to be making birdies coming down the stretch. So that's that stretch and stream saw where you know three, four, and five can beat you up pretty good. And I probably the one we hear the most complaints about is four because the force carry or because of the force carry and because the you know the alternative if you play it poorly is it falls in your pocket or you've lost a golf ball. Whereas that doesn't happen pretty much anywhere else on the golf course. Five's one the most spectacular. I'm right there. He's in the game. It's crazy. Thanks. What is there? How would you say your design style or your overall style has evolved over the years? What have you learned and what have you kind of changed or evolved in your process?

You know, I think, and I'm trying to get this to sound the right way, you become more confident, you're willing to take more risks. And I remember having this conversation with Tom Doke way back when, I mean, when I worked for him back in the early 90s and kind of talking about how the architects who are successful should be the ones who are pushing the boundaries instead of playing it safe. It's easy to just fall back into, hey, this worked here, this worked there, let's just keep doing it and we keep making money and we keep getting magazines, etc., etc., as opposed to, hey, this site could be a really cool opportunity to reinvent or think about doing

something else. Now, you might wind up pushing it so far that you have to reverse course and come back on yourself a little bit. But I feel like we're in a really good groove. We've got a lot of good guys that are working for us who are all talented and thoughtful. And I think Jim and I are feeling a little bit more confident about pushing the envelope and taking chances where the client allows us to do that. So, yeah, I think that that's where we're at right now. Hopefully we keep, we just keep getting better. And a lot of these restoration projects aid us in that. I know after doing LA North,

I'm a much better golf course architect than I was going into that project because, you know, with Jeff Shackleford's help and, you know, having, getting us to understand George Thomas and having all that historical data there, you work on a course like that and you think, oh my gosh, I can take that to our work and his design philosophy definitely had an impact on the Olympic course in Rio. And then you get to Wingfoot and you spend hours and hours and hours and hours or days and days studying and looking at those contours and shoveling and raking and trying to replicate them through construction. And if you don't absorb that, you're an idiot. And so I think that that restoration component of what we get to work on is really helpful

in keeping us sort of with fresh ideas and fresh thoughts. He's a tank full. Yeah, it does. Do you have any, is there any one project that sticks out to you as something that you're the most proud of? Yeah, the cradle. Interesting.

Yeah, I think that it is without a doubt the most successful thing that we've done. And it may not be the most successful thing, critically, but what we set out to do, it is accomplishing all of those things. When we were doing course number four, walking in at night, you see eight sums of guys, barefoot out there playing Hootin' and Holler,

and you see grandparents with their grandkids. You see four sums of kids, and their parents are sitting up in the Adirondectures watching them play golf, and it's all about fun. And I think anything we can do to content is that the content of the content is that the content of the content is that the content of the content is that the content of the content is that the content of the content is that the content of the content is that the content of the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content is that the content the content is that the content is that the content is that the content the content is that the content and then Sandbox or, and so what it's called, sand Valley, sand Valley, you know, they're getting more notoriety, but we've fielded calls for like two or three short courses

this year, and so I think, well we're proud of everything we do, that one's pretty cool. That's probably the ultimate kind of liberates you from, it's like a blank canvas, right? You can, it is, and you're not worried about whatever, I don't even know what shot values are, but I hear it a lot.

And so I was kind of make sure the shot values, right? What is that? I don't know. But you're starting to think, you know, you're not thinking about that. You're not like, okay, is this green receptive to a four iron from such and such? It's, how do we challenge a really good player

with, you know, having to be creative and thinking yet still provide a pathway for a guy who's never picked up a golf club to get his ball on the green and put and have a good time with it. And I think somehow some way we were able to accomplish that at the cradle. We're trying to get down to Jack's Beach where we live. We're trying to get the city council to approve a little bit more money to do a big putting course down there kind of like a

smaller version of like a yeah this will do or punchball. I mean that's another thing too. It's great and we've had you know we did the the horse course out at the prairie club was a blast to do that and we did the roundabout at stream song so you know they're they're becoming a key part of of of resorts and destination golf And if it's a beer and a giggle, you know, count me in, I'm ready for that. I'll be there for five minutes. We got done playing the preserve a couple of months ago. And I forget to somebody ask the question, we walked off, like, did anybody miss hitting driver? Like, did you miss it? Or was it kind of cool to just have a chance to approach every green for 13 straight

hall. Yeah, that's kind of that's fun. Anything to kind of break the mold from what? Not everything has to be 7200 yard car 72. I'd be a much better golfer if I played short courses with regularity. Yeah, absolutely right. Yeah, that's the part of I mean the two parts of the game. The short game of the putting is really where you score. What I'm curious and maybe eliminate the open championship from this, but I'm curious, what was your favorite either like PGA championship or US open overall set up from an architectural standpoint, the most successful test of professionals,

you're fine. The best overall test of professionals that you've seen on a major championship scale in recent or in past years. Wow. That's a great question. I'm just going through my head and you can come up with one that was just like, wow,

and like, yeah, you took the open championship boy because you could say every year for that. That makes it spot on. I mean, I thought Oakmont was for Oakmont for what it is was really good. I think that's the one that comes to mind for me. I just felt like that, that they towed that line pretty perfectly for that one and they did. And, you know, the Greens, you can make the argument

that but they're always that fast. Yeah. You know, what's the urban myth but they're always that fast. What's the urban myth that they slow them down for the US open? So that's not, I don't think that's a knock on the golf course. But yeah, I think we, aside from the rain the first day when it got crazy with the weather, they're having to play catch up. But yeah, I think Oakmont. And that's, it's not a fluke. It's a great golf course. And they've had championships. They have plenty of experience in setting it up and knowing. I think that's the difficult thing about going to a Chambers Bay or an Aaron Hills.

There's no track record for setting it up for that type of championship. And so you're really kind of searching around for what's going to work. How much work are you doing outside the US and how are you? We've got, we're trying to do maybe one project a year outside the US. We're wrapping up Tokyo Golf Club, so we've just doing a major restoration there. And then we just signed to do a new golf course south of Paris, which we're really excited about in the War Valley, which I love wine. So it'll be a fun project there.

It's a great site. It reminds me of an awful lot of, like a Heathland type setup. And with Sean T. More Fontaine is good examples of what could, you know, we could accomplish there. We're excited about the potential for that job. And you're building a new golf course in Thailand, which is kind of hard for me to even think about because the rainy season, so everything's shut down. So I kind of forget that occasionally.

But it's a completely manufactured, reiner, McDonald type golf course. Is that the lead-o? It's based on the lead-o. We don't want anybody to say it's the lead-o. It's not. But the sequence of holes is the same. And it's all the same characteristics.

So that's been a, it's a tough one. It's so far away to get the amount of time there and we felt like a template golf course would allow us to be more successful. Plus, it would just be pretty cool. What was the process like for building a new course in Scotland, the home of golf with so many classic courses being kind of the reason why people go there and travel there. But what's it like to build a brand new course in that kind of landscape? First and foremost, it's an honor. I mean, it was amazing that we had the opportunity to Craig head to do that. The first solo golf course out of the box is 10 miles from St Andrews.

And then with Castles Stewart, with Mark Parsons and having had experience over there with King's Barnes, who I looked for a great site, you know, from a visual perspective. And then we created what we think is a pretty good representation of Link's golf. And some of it was there. Some of it, we, most of it, we had to build. So that was exciting in and of itself. I think we've always tried to honor the traditions of the game and not build something over the top. not build something over the top. And the feedback we've gotten is that our golf courses, while you know they're new, they still feel like they could have been there for long. In fact, you know, Graham Lenny, one of my best friends is the pro at

Crayl, he'd call me in June and he said, happy 20th birthday. And I said, what? And he said, Craycad's 20 years old. And I thought, my God, how do we have a goal? Of course, that old. So yeah, it goes by quick, but I think that the maturation of Craighead, and I think the acceptance of Castle Stewart from the Scottish Open and from all the people that go over and play it,

you know, we've been accepted, which is a great thing. Yeah, I felt like it had been there for a long, long time. I was prepared to lay, all right, you know, we're playing all these old courses over here. And I was prepared to say, hey, I didn't like that place. It was probably one of my top three favorite set of the chart. Thanks. And they all get down to having an owner like Mark

and any partner like Jim who want to get the details right. And I think that's something that people have asked us, well, how come you get all these great old golf courses and I think it's just that we're willing to spend the time to get the details right. And we try and get the details right in our new courses. And you can never overestimate that. If you get the details right, it tends to fall into place. On that subject, how do you keep yourself from being stretched in and having the time

to get those details right? I'm sure you want to take on, I mean, those details right. I'm sure you, you know, you want to take on like, I mean, everything looks good on paper, but you know, how do you, how do you get yourself to kind of dial it back and say no to stuff? Yeah, we've had to learn how to say no, and it's tough because there are opportunities

for some really, really strong projects and really great old clubs, or we just had to say it, we can't. I've said this to people, I said, rather you'd be disappointed now that I'm saying no, then, you know, for you in a year from now going, you know, where the hell is Gil? He said he was going to be here and we never see him and we don't get to talk to him, et cetera. And I don't ever want to get to that point.

Russ Meyers, the superintendent at Southern Hills the other day said he was talking to a salesman and he's like, wow, you must never see Gil, he's so busy, he's working on 20 projects and Russ said, no, he's working at Marion and here and that's pretty much it. You know, we've got all this other stuff in planning, but everybody's like, well, how are you working at Wingfoot? Well, Wingfoot's done. And, you know, how did you work at Iran?

And, you know, what's going on at Iran? And, go, Iran Wing's finished. These jobs actually do end. They stop at some point in time, and then you move on to the next one. And that's been the critical thing for Jim and I to try and manage that flow, so that we're never too busy, but we're always busy enough. And we're in a really envious, we're in a fortunate spot that we're able to say no, and we're still able to commit the time that we need. On that subject too, what golf course that you can politically say,

would you love to get your hands on? Yeah, I think Yale is one of the great gems in this country. And for any number of reasons, you know, the scale doesn't match what Rayner and McDonald had and, you know, the maintenance. Scott Ramsey does a great job with the resources he has, but, you know, it would be nice to see that golf course restored back to its true glory, it's true scale, because I think it probably was unmatched in its day, and maybe unmatched in this country for how large it was, how big the landscape was, the rocks,

but that would require a lot of tree removal, it would require a lot of restoration work to get it back into place, but I think Yale is definitely deserving of that. I guess last question on my end would be what definitely deserving of that. I guess last question on my end would be what is the world running out of new, like, great new sites for golf courses? Is there still some great stuff out there?

Yeah, there is. There's a few that we're talking to people about. And I think that, you know, what Mike Kaiser has done is he's set the bar. I mean, he's been as important as anybody in this era of golf course architecture. He's provided, you know, Bill and Ben and David and Tom, principally, the opportunities to build great golf courses and on great sites. And he's the one who put that equation together, hey, you know, if you get a destination with a great golf course, it can't be a good golf course. It has to be great. People will travel and make it fast-long stuff.

Yeah, and that's at the template for, you know, Herb Kohler and for Rich Mack at Streamsong and for Pinehurst to do what they're doing. And so I think that there's the recognition now that somebody once said this to me, you know, there's always room for quality. If you build it, they will compound. Yeah, it's right.

I mean, there's, there's, the golfing world doesn't have room for quality. If you build it, they will compound it. Yeah, it's right. I mean, there's, the golfing world doesn't have room for another mediocre golf course, but it will always have room for a great golf course, and people will always go to look for it and explore it, find it. And so I think as a result, that standard is now been set really high, and you're getting people like, you know, I've not seen it with my own eyes,

but the photos of Tariety look unbelievable and so you mean people go into the ends of the world and Tasmania to do this and and so as a result I think you know those types of sites they may not pop up on the East Coast of the United States but they're going to pop up somewhere around the world. All right we're going to let you out of here on this we're going to go watch some golf but thanks for spending an hour with us and telling stories and whatnot. So great to pick your brain on a lot of these things. Well, thanks guys. I appreciate it.

It was fun. Thank you. Thank you. Be the right club. Be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in.

That is better than most. Better than most. Thank you.