No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 174: Tom Coyne

Episode Date: October 29, 2018

As we’re set to premiere season 2 of Tourist Sauce on YouTube this week, we thought we’d chat with a connoisseur of links golf this week on the podcast. Enter Tom Coyne, who spend 56... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 174: Tom Coyne appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most! out this Tuesday we made a trip to Scotland this past summer. We filmed the whole thing. It is the second season of our travel series called Tourist Sauce. If you haven't seen it yet, season one was in Australia and season two is Scotland and we have about 11 episodes. I think that will actually

take you every Tuesday until the new year. Thought it would be good to catch up with our buddy Tom Coin. Tom made a lot of headlines this summer. He came out with his book, A Course Called Scotland. He played like 107 links golf courses in 56 days and is an incredible writer and has just a great way of describing what it's like to play links golf, what it's like to play in Scotland and he's a great storyteller. So we want to get him on to kind of hear some of his experiences in Scotland and kind of get people in the right mindset for this season coming up. We're really excited about it. We do hope you guys go over to our YouTube channel. Please subscribe there in new episodes. You'll get notifications when new episodes come out

every Tuesday and the first episode is Kill Spindy. It's a blast. Just trust me on this. I promise this is going to be some of the you might be kind of surprised with some of the production quality. this coming season, which is we owe it all to our editor, Matt Golden. But before we roll into this with Mr. Tom Coyne, I want to note, Calaway staffers, Andrew Schoffley picked up a huge win on Sunday at the WGC HSBC Champions, joining Mark Leashman and Sergio Garcia. Already the third win in three weeks for

Callaway staffers using the graphene infused chrome soft x ball. And in fact, the ball was one of the main selling points in getting Xander to switch to Callaway this year. On a recent episode of the Callaway fitting room podcast, he said that I felt like I was switching to a better ball for me and in testing. I put myself on a downslope, chipping onto a downslope where you need to hit a high, soft shot and even my mishits, this ball reacted better and it stopped faster.

It was a very obvious decision for me. I can relate to that, having switched to the chrome soft last year and I really can't imagine playing another golf ball now. So he also, Zander also had an Odyssey O-Works Red number seven putter and a set of new forged Callaway prototype irons in the bag that personally I really really really hope they end up hitting the market soon because I've seen them and they look incredible and they're obviously working for him. So congratulations to Zander. I think it's going to be a big season for him and without any

further delay, let's get to Tom coin. No, I was just going to ask you, teaching this semester? I am. I was on sabbatical in the spring, which was great timing. And I am back to teaching. My students aren't aware that I'm teaching them yet, but they'll figure it out. I've been a little bit distracted, but no, it's going good. One of my dreams is for Neil and I on our ex on our excapades to show up and audit one of your classes one day. Dude you have to come in and you would be more than welcome.

You roll right into a fiction workshop and we'll do a little creative writing. We'll pull we'll pull your stories out of you man. It'll be awesome. Well Neil is a creative writing major at Columbia. Really? Yeah yeah. At Columbia as in New York. Yeah. And he's hanging around an Airbnb with you.

Exactly. What a world. I might all right. I'm just going to do we may have to leave that first part in. Usually I at least let guests know when they're when they're being recorded. But that was that that would be to leave that in in case you don't know yet you're listening to Mr. Tom coin he's the author of a course called Scotland a course called Ireland and a bunch of other books big you you are also I don't

know if you know this Tom big Randy has declared that you guys are best friends then you just don't know it yet I kind of feel the same way well I know he chose paper tiger for the book of the month club, which I thought was incredibly cool. And watching him travel around and stay in these air being bees and stuff, it really, I'm getting flashbacks to Scotland, Ireland and Scotland and traveling like that with no money and showing up

at some place and it being a total craft shoot. So I do feel like we certainly have a kinship. There's no doubt. Wow, for my part, your book, a course called Ireland, is a huge motivation and I'm glad that you can kind of see parts of what we're trying to do in that because having read that, that was and is a huge inspiration because having read that, that was, and is a huge inspiration for me personally. And this is going to sound really corny, but really deepened my love and interest in the game of golf. So it's one of my favorite books. Oh, thanks, man. Yeah. I'm really inspired now. I got goosebumps there. And that was awesome. I think that's, that maybe the best compliment

that somebody that you can give or get is that, you know, that anything that anyone does inspired, they're love for golf. So that's... Yeah, that's amazing, man. Thank you. Yeah, for sure. Well, I mean, I get a lot of, and I think even Kevin Van Volckerberg made the comment that you and I were maybe related in some way that you played like 107 courses in 56

days, and you may have beat, you did beat my pace from the summer of 2017, which was the best summer of my life playing golf. So going back all the way to Ireland, I guess I kind of want to know how you got inspired to do that trip, explain to the listeners what that trip was, had you ever been to Ireland and kind of what the whole purpose was of your first trip to Ireland? Yeah, so the Ireland book grew out of, I mean, a couple things. I've been going to Ireland with my dad and my family on these,

sometimes like family trips or golf trips, going over, like, looking for long-lost relatives, not really finding any, and then going golfing. And so I'd started going over since I was probably like 12 or 13. I'd really like just had an awesome affinity for the place and fell in love with Lynx Golf over there. I played, we were on a trip and they said there's this course and a screw down the road and go check it out. And so that was the first Lynx course I ever played.

And it just, you know, I've been playing golf since like seven or eight years old. And it just blew me away. The whole, I'm like, man, this is like a whole other thing, you know, it's a, it's kind of like a whole other sport and I had no idea you could kind of play golf and that kind of landscape. So I just fell in love with it. So I mean, I became like a sort of links loving golf or pretty early on and obviously love going over to Ireland. I felt very comfortable there. As I've told Redhead, you know, people tended to stare less and make fewer disparaging comments. It's just, you know, it was a comfortable place. And so, with the Ireland book, I was planning a trip for, like, some friends and

they printed out a golf map of Ireland and was trying to think, like, should we go here, go there, or, you know, North, South, whatever. I kept looking at this map and I'm like, this looks like one there, or, you know, North South, whatever. I kept looking at this map and I'm like, this looks like one giant golf course, you know, the, the country's ringed with these, with these next courses. And so, you know, where all these flags are, I'm like, I just, I'm going to play the whole thing and I'm going to play a golf course called Ireland. Like I'm going to try to play Ireland like a giant golf course. I thought that would be, that would be fun. A good way to spend a summer. I thought it would be a

good book idea. And you know, the thing about not gimmick, I guess, but the big idea behind it being that I would walk the whole way because when you play golf in Ireland, you don't take off cards, you know, you walk so that I would do the whole thing on foot and just keep playing until until I finish. And I thought, you know, that'll would do the whole thing on foot and just keep playing until I finish. And I thought, you know, that'll be something. That'll be, that would be a book. And it's funny. You come up with these crazy ideas and you pitch them to your publisher and then they say, yes. And you're like, oh, shit, I have to go do this now. I have to go walk around Ireland now. Like, what the hell is I thinking? So yeah, so it worked out.

I spent about a year planning it, because it took a lot of time to just figure out the logistics of this was pre-air B&B and pre-just booking everything on your smartphone. So a ton of planning and then a lot of walking, for sure. What point did you regret the walking part? I mean, I'm not going to sit here and let you tell me that this was like, that was the right decision and this was the right call and I am a totally sane person.

I started to regret it about like day two when Ireland was in the middle of this heatwave, it was like 80 degrees and and all I have is warm stuff because I figured I'd just be freezing my ass off the whole way around. And we're walking from like kill key where we started up to Dunebag. And I just realized, and like this is really, really hard. And I'm not in good shape.

Like I didn't really bother getting in shape because I figured what's the point? I'm gonna get in shape anyway. So I like kill myself now in the the winter. So the beginning was definitely the hardest part. I mean my feet were killing me, my shoulders because I was just carrying you know, I had a backpack and golf club strapped to it. So it was like straight up pretty painful. I started dispatching golf clubs along the way, I threw away my golf shoes.

They're like wedges sprinkled around the coast of Ireland. Because I'm like, dude, I can just knock it down. And nine iron's fine. I don't need a lob wedge anymore. So it was, yeah, it was crazy. But I will say that it was the smartest choice that I did make because it allowed me to kind of get to New Ireland in a very different way than I'd ever seen

it before or I think most people would get to see it because I was stopping in places where people don't stop. I was staying in places where people certainly don't stay. And it definitely, I think that certainly added something to the story. I mean, did you pre-book any places to stay? Did you show up at people's houses? Like, hello, hello, is this an Airbnb? May I please stay here?

How, like, this is blowing my mind. I kind of like to travel by the seat of my pants to a little bit, but not like walking to the next destination. No, I mean, I plan the hell out of it because I also, I also, like, I do this stuff, but I also have control issues. And so, I needed to, like, know that at the end of every day,

no matter how far the walk was, like, that there was a potential bet in my future. But it got tricky, like, there were a lot of spots on the map where it's hard to find, like, you're not, there's no holiday in, you know? And this was, I was doing this, like, 2005, 2006, 2006. So like not all these B&Bs were online or anything. So there were a few gaps. I mean, I generally had a sense of where I was going every day, but weather intervened quite a bit, you know, my, I would get sick

or sort of have to take a day off or pain or whatever. So the schedule would get messed up. By the end, I was going a lot more by the seed in my pants and just kind of like, hey that place looks good enough. Or going to a pub and ask a dude like, there was one town where there was nowhere to stay and I decided to trust the guy who'd like been in the bar for like a week. Dude, like, dude, you know anywhere to stay and he drove me which was smart. I jumped in the car with stay and he drove me, which was smart. I jumped in the car with him and he drives me up the road and drives me off at some lady's house.

And Knox on the door is like, hey, you know, put this kid up and she did. So there were a few moments like that, but I tried to plan it as much as I could. Do you get rained on while you're walking from the next location? What's the worst part of the walk? And I'm just kind of, I'm fascinated by picture you on the side of the road just humming along. Like, oh my, I got 10 more miles to go. What am I doing?

Oh, dude, I mean, that was like, it was one of those things. Like, I hated the walking, but I loved having walks. You know, the finish line was there was, there was, I was such a great feeling finishing every day and arriving somewhere. But yeah, I walked. When I came down the East Coast through Dublin, it rained for 37 days in a row. And then that's certainly got, that starts to wear on one spirit a little bit. Yeah, I would think so. So I'm living in my, I mean, at that point, I really don't have many clothes in my backpack. And I'm just living in my waterproofs. Like I just, I wore my golf rain, you know, my rain pants, wear my regular pants.

Waterproof top, big rain hat, and good shoes, and that's just kind of how I lived. Like, I guess at some point I stopped even noticing it, you know, just being, you just get used to being soaked constantly. And cars would stop and offer me rides, and I'd have to decline them and they'd think I was insane and it was awkward and I was like no I really want to be out here do this this is great You're gonna call me a fraud if I end up taking this for you Yeah right they're gonna say stuff so no that was yeah the rain was a drag but you know when you'd arrive in a town and you'd walk there and meet somebody and by the end of the trip sort of people knew about it in Ireland because I was writing about it in a newspaper over there and I need to sit down and and and be like you're the you're the American you're the crazy wandering golfer and they want to talk to you and I mean that was like you know obviously that made it all worth it and it always felt great to arrive. Those, every day, I had a chance to do something awesome,

which was, get to my destination. And that was a pretty cool way to live. Conversely, and correct me if I'm wrong, you had people join you, though, for certain legs of the trip in Ireland. I did. Those seemed to be highlights, that's the way it came through in the book.

And then just tying it into your newer book, a course called Scotland, I felt like that was a big part of the book. And then just tying it into your newer book, of course, called Scotland, I felt like that was a big part of the book where the folks that joined you, was were your experiences in Ireland? Was that kind of the impetus for you to, you know, invite people, strangers, even in some cases, join you in Scotland?

Absolutely, we are related, dude, because that's exactly what I was thinking. There's two bodies, one spirit, I'm pretty sure right now. It's true. No, it was because, you know, I do the Ireland book and I realize, you know, that describing another fairway or another links or another five iron, you know, that's not a book. And that's not the book that I want to read, certainly not what I want to write. It's all about the people and Ireland was so full of them.

And a lot of folks did come and join me. Friends would come, walk with me for, you know, a few days or a week and they added in the end. I mean, they become the whole story. I mean, stories are about people. You know, the stories I enjoy are about characters and conflicts and relationships and how people change. And as a travel writer, you know, it's about how travel

changes you and how travel presents all these opportunities to you that you don't experience otherwise. And so it had to be about people and I had a lot of an Ireland and then that definitely was the reason, you know, when I came to doing Scotland, the Scotland was different and then I opened it up to all commerce. Like I was on series XM PJ tour radio on morning and Was like hey if any listeners want to come to Scotland And you get over there, you know, I'll save a spot for you. I didn't come to you up and and people did and and I met there were about

eight to ten people that I'd never met before That just showed up in Scotland and we're like, hey Tom I'm here let's golf and it was wild and I was like you know I did that and then I was like oh I'm crazy like I'm gonna get the craziest kind of people like to come do this and then and then I thought we're like oh that's great for the book like the crazier they are you know the more interesting they're gonna be for the story they're not just like a boring dude doesn't say like, oh, I heard that guy on the radio. I'm going to go to Scotland. He's going to be interesting. So that's kind of, it's

always, yeah, it's all about people golf. And is the backdrop, Scotland and Ireland have been their great trajectory, but they've really just been ways for me to meet different people and tell their stories. Getting to more specifics on Ireland was there any course in particular or maybe three to four courses that Particularly resonated with you and aside from that also kind of your your hidden gems You're under the radar courses that you're kind of curious as to why they don't get more attention Yeah, I mean, I think one of them is and probably in both categories. For me, and that's a place called Carn,

which is in the Belmaule Golf Club. Up in the Northwest of Ireland and County Mayo, it's out on a very remote peninsula. I mean, I know what people don't know about it because it's not easy to get to. But it's an Eddie Hackett design. I believe it's the last design. And to me, it's just, the walk, maybe it was the, like, how long it took me to get there.

The fact that my family's kind of from there, the people there. Just to me, that struck me as like, that's my place, you know. And I think, as you know, as guys, you travel and golf, sometimes you just get that feeling, place, you know, and I think as you know, as guys you travel and golf, sometimes you just get that feeling like this this one's for me and then it's you know, I put it I try to put that in the words in the book but it was really just a very soulful thing where everything about the course and the people so that's a place I still go back try to go back to every year. I got to, Tom, I was cheating a little bit

because I did know that that was gonna be the answer that you gave and you're writing about car and actually inspired me to go there with my dad a couple of years ago. Yes. Really? You were right. It is difficult to get there by car first of all.

Let me just, I was about to complain about how far the drive was and then I remember you walked out there. Yeah, right? I mean, I had to walk like, that there's one road in and out. So I had to stay like at the start of that road, walk in, come back out, stay again in the same, being it was insane. But yeah there's just there's just something that place is so unspoiled and edge of the earth. It's in an Irish-speaking area. It's like the Ireland of your imagination.

If you have an imagination of like Ireland in the 1940s That I really loved so so that's a special one. I mean a lot of these have become more I think the hidden gem up up there for me is is also a place called Crutch Island Which is a nine-holar that's in Dunning all which is just so much fun and just this crazy cliff top romp. And I just love that place. And then a place that probably is more on the map now in Northern Ireland, Art Glass.

You know, everyone goes to county down to play rural county down as they should. But not far from there is this awesome cliff top golf course Where you will not get a better welcome anywhere on the island. I mean The Northern Irish courses sometimes have a reputation for the reception being a little more chilly or British or whatever But and I don't think that's the case. I think they're all great But our glass man. It's like you don't want to leave that place. It's just awesome Well, it's funny how

Just you these things can kind of go in cycles, right? I mean, people just start talking about a golf course, which brings more people to it. And it that, you know, that's, and we just kind of blown away on our recent trip to Scotland. We played a couple courses that I really had barely heard of before. And I'm like, wait, why don't people talk about this one? And it's, I get caught up in it as much as anyone.

I mean, I just wanted to play all the courses that everyone's talking about, but that's what we, we might have to pick your brain a little bit, we're trying to make it back over that way later next year. But I was curious, you mentioned that you just, that's where you learned of like fall in love with Lingx golf and it's something I kind of struggle with is explaining why Lingx golf is so different

and why it resonates, but you're a writer. So I trust that you have the words actually be able to do this. So help me try to explain what makes what makes Link's golf so special. That's a lot of pressure, man. Now I have to be eloquent. You've done this in like seven books already. You can do this. I know.

I've got to go pull out the golfers, you know, I'll read you. You might know, I'm just kidding. This so, no, I mean, definitely the thing about Link's golf, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, line the place and you know that it presents so many different options and you know people know that about links golf in the open that there are all these sorts of different options and kinds of shots you can play that's super fun but I think also just there's just something about golf on the sand you know that the more I learn about it the more research did the more I've learned about what a links golf course actually is like when you're playing in these landscapes you're playing in like really like it's like

sacred ground. I mean it's geological miracle. It used to be a seabed you know like the two billion years ago and basically the oceans and the winds and nature created these dunes with these valleys that people could golf through. And that's where people started playing. You know, they left the dunes, they couldn't grow anything on them, so they left them to sportsmen and hunters and stuff. So the first golfer started playing in the dunes.

This game is basically ideally suited for a playing field that's made by a miracle. And that's cool. Like, I, I, the staple center was not a miracle, you know, but carnage and the old courses and, and askernishes, you know, you know, especially these courses that are more than a hundred years old before they could move any earth, where they literally just had to find the golf course to play something that natural. And then you're in this game you play is so ideally suited to it. It just makes you really grateful for being a golfer, I think. I just get so excited when you look at, when you're driving into a town with the lengths and you look out and you see those

hills and you see the grass waving on the hills, it's just like that's where I'm supposed to be. Man, I spend a lot of time thinking about this. And I don't think I've ever thought of it of golfing through a miracle. That might be my favorite, my favorite description of it yet. That's a great line. I always get, so I just went to Scotland for the first time a couple months ago. And it's not my original thought. And I don't know if you've mentioned it or other writers, but

I think it was so true. And I'm curious, you know, if you feel that way as well, is this, you almost get the sense of nostalgia, kind of come into some of these towns and playing some of these courses, and it's just such an interesting feeling, especially for someone making their first trip over there. It's so cool. Yeah, but I think that was something in the forefront of my mind making my first trip. I mean, absolutely. The history at these places, it's obviously incredible, because it's been around forever, and anyone who's done anything in golf has played

and walked the fairways you're walking, you know, if you're playing the old course or a carnivore or whatever. But what I love is like how these like in North Baruch or the old course, you know, how these like golf courses flow into town and are like enveloped by the town and sort of like the way that you know, Rigglyfield is surrounded by Chicago like that the golf and the town kind of work together and the whole thing just is beautiful and perfect and You know, we don't really have that kind of equivalent in our golf over here So I think you know the first time and they have it in Ireland at other than in Lahans in our glass and wherever just the way golf and the municipality kind of are

One in the same how these courses are to municipality are one and the same. How these courses are big giant playing fields in public parks is just so incredibly refreshing and cool and exciting, just to where I'm coming from, for sure. Yeah, definitely. I couldn't have said it better. I think that comparison with Fenway and Riggley

is a good one. I was going to ask you about, you mentioned in your book of course called Scotland about the first time you went over to St. Andrews in college. I was just wondering if you could speak about that and what that experience was like and how that set up or how prominent a role that played for maybe some folks who haven't read the book,

how that played into your big trip around Scotland. Yeah, I mean, that remains like the golf getaway. I mean, you know, we've all done a lot of golf getaways and golf weekend trips. And for me, that remains like the one against which they're all measured. That was a weekend, I was studying in London. I had a couple flatmates who golfed and we said all right we had a bank holiday weekend and so well hell let's go to St Andrews everyone was going to Amsterdam you know to go to

the coffee bars and we're like I were like dude we're on the Scotland so we jumped on a train and got in the lot. Put our name in the lottery, jumped on a train, got up there. We had the last tea time of the day on the old course, found a place to stay, rented clubs, bought some call shoes, whatever, forged handicapped certificates for my buddies. And because we were just studying abroad,

we weren't prepared for, we didn't have any like rain gear, either, rain the whole time But we went out and played that you know the next day we got we played the old course and You know and at that time in my life, you know at 20 years old Just getting kind of aware of like how cool it was what I was doing how great it was and how much it would have meant How much not it just meant to me, but what it meant to my dad. You're just kind of getting to that age where your parents are starting to make sense again.

And I just remember feeling like just so incredibly, everything about it was so special. Afterwards, drinking scotch and a clubhouse and thinking like, and at St. Andrews and having this sensation and like this is what it is to live a good life. You know, this is what it has to be like a golfing man, like to be sitting right here looking at St. Andrews and say, I just played that golf course. And so that stuck with me forever. So the chance to like, you know, Ireland certainly became my first love, but there was always that question

of like, I don't know Scotland. And I love Lynx golf and I pretend to know so much about it. But I haven't done the home of golf. And that was certainly knowing how special it was from that first trip. That's certainly where the book came from. And what makes it so great, and I remember that first time I went too, was there was like kind of the feeling of,

oh, like this is accessible. Like this is, everyone can just kind of stand here and you don't need permission to walk here and here and it's the opposite of most of the top clubs and stuff in the United States. My question related to that is, where do you suggest, or something like making a first trip going to Scotland?

Where do you usually suggest that they go? Yeah, no, I agree. Like San and just, when you take that bus, like, well, in college, we were on the bus and you drive into town and you're like, wait, that's it. That's the golf course. You drive right past it.

You can't believe you can reach out and touch it. So I mean, on a first trip, yeah, I think you do have to go to five, right? And getting the lottery and try and play the old course. And not just for the golf, because I just think St. Andrews is also that happens to be the perfect town with the university

and the history and the ruins and awesome restaurants. It's just the, I mean, my wife Allison loves it. She wants to retire there and she's not a golfer. So I mean, that's just the kind of place it is. It's just great. So yeah, it's a definitely go there. So if you do that and then you do like the golf coast in East Lothian North, Barrack down that way that stretch you can all cover that in you know you fly

to Edinburgh and within an hour you can be in East Lothian or an hour you can be up in five and you can just have an awesome awesome trip I mean I know the way the West Coast is great too if you fly into Glasgow you can do airshy really easily as well but you know I'd say do the old course, do North Barric, play the Glen, play Crayl, go down to Anster, the little lion hole or there. That's the cool thing about you know people asking me the difference between Ireland and Scottish Gulf trips and that's the great thing about the Scottish Gulf trip is that you can stay in one

town for a week and you don't have to get on the bus again or pack up again because there's just so much. The concentration of great length golf in Scotland, it's insane. Ireland, you bounce around, you get on the bus and you travel a little bit but there's so much if you're staying in North Baruch or if you're staying in St. Andrews or you're staying in Anvernasse or you're staying in Chiron, so much to play. Yeah, that's what I was going to say is you can just park yourself in fight and you can throw a blanket over, you know, eight other golf courses in that area that you don't need to, you don't need to move hotels for and you know people, I see like people see a list of top Scotland golf courses and want to do a trip where they play all of the top 10 and it's like, no, just go to an area and enjoy the quote unquote secondary courses in that area, like Ely and Crayl,

some of the ones you mentioned. Oh, they're awesome. Even the new course, and Jubilee, the other courses at St. Andrews are just tremendous. And it's just, it's, I was gonna say, I kind of wanted to hear the genesis of how the Scotland trip came about. But based on what you just said,

it sounds like if you're gonna walk a country to play golf, Scotland would have been a lot better decision than Ireland would have been. You know, it would have made for there were spots where it would have been so much better, because yeah, I mean, like literally courses bump up against each other, you know, like Merkler runs in a Royal Aberdeen, and all the courses in St Andrews, and, you know, London and Leaven are right next to each other, other. So there would have been a lot of easy days walking it. Where it would have got hard is certainly up in the Highlands and coming down the Northwest Coast.

That's where it actually would have gotten impossible because that coastline, when you get up, people generally go as far north as Dornock and Brora. And if you keep going up and go around around like Wic and Ray and Bernasse and then come down the west coast like there's not a ton of golf but the scenery is insane. Like I was an in-vernasse I'm like oh great I've seen the Highlands. It's like another planet when you get up to the Northwest. The drives are like, I mean, they're a little bit scary.

Like I got a little bit of vertigo on some of those, some of those drives up there. So that would have been a very bad walk over there. But man, I'm glad I saw that part of the country. It's phenomenal. Well, explain kind of what the premise of your, what were you, what you were striving for. This is summer of 2015, right?

Did you went to on this talent trip? Yeah, so I mean, after doing Ireland, people for years were just asking me, what are you doing in Scotland? What are you doing in Scotland? So naturally, I was like, I'm not doing Scotland, because you don't want to do something obvious or people are telling you to do.

And essentially, I didn't want to write the same book again So it took a sort a little while for me to kind of figure out How I was going to do Scotland in a different way and when I did I was all in and it became like total obsession And the approach was gonna be you know, I did this book paper tiger Book of the month for Randy's reading club. Shout out. And thank you. Shout out. You know, where I tried to sort of play next level golf

using technology and coaches and shrinks and trainers and all that stuff. And I got pretty good, but, you know, not, well, I don't want to run the end of the book friend. So, but I always wondered, like, is the solution to my golf? Like something a little more soulful, a little more pure, a little more spiritual even. Like, is it more about my attitude, unless about my swing? Because all I'd ever focused on was swing.

And so I wanted, if there was basically, this suspicion that I had that there was a secret to golf, that there was a secret to my best golf. And if it existed anywhere, it was going to exist in the home of golf. So I kind of said, all right, I'm going to go to Scotland and I'm going to look for the secret to golf. So I'm going to play all the road up. So that meant I was going to go to England as well and put that mostly up in Scotland and

play all the road of courses. And then people started suggesting other courses and places I couldn't miss. And if you're playing here, you got to play there and you're playing there and and the out dinner. I just got out of control To where I was I had a list when I took off It was a hundred and seven courses and I had a window of time of 57 days because I'm a professor at St. Joseph's University go hawks and by the end of my semester You know, I had to I had to finish my semester and then take off the next day. And I wanted the last round to be a qualifier for the Open Championship to

sort of put to the test what I'd learned about golf and my best golf and what I'd found in Scotland. So that gave me a hard start date and a hard end date. So it became just two and three rounds a day, every day. And basically everywhere. From Cornwall and England to the Southeast Corner, England, I shot up through Wales on my way to Scotland across the off a couple of courses there. Went to the northern most courses, the western most courses.

I mean, I went up to Shatland, the Shatland Islands. I went to the Orkney Islands. I went out to the Hebrides, which you know, I thought I had this little secret golf course called Ascronish that nobody knew about and then a couple people, one of them a friend of yours, had to go right about it. He's no longer a friend of ours. We didn't know that he ruined the surprise for you. Good, good, good. He's out. You know, it was funny. Like, I'd written all this, the books about to come out,

and I see like DJ's piece and like Eric's thing on scratch, even I'm like, oh my god, they blew it. But no, the story had been out there about Ascarnish, but that was a pretty cool pilgrimage to get all the way out to that lost Tom Morris' course. The idea was no stone unturned. I'm going to look absolutely everywhere to find what is it about golf? How can I play my work and I play my best golf?

How do I do it? The big question eventually became, as I was doing it, why the hell am I doing this? And so, you know, the question started to kind of change. It's the trip went on. And I guess it sort of becomes a story about why I love this game so much. For those listening, it's about so much more than that. And I don't want to say any really any more than that to... I don't want to ruin it for folks, but everything you just said is awesome. And then I'll just say everything you didn't say is even better. So I would encourage everybody to read the book. It blew me away. Thank you, man. Thanks,

and I think I know what you're what you're talking about I'll just say yeah there's there's more of um this is a very different story than the Stenney Ireland book I hope they're both funny I hope they're both crazy golf adventures but I think this is uh in Scotland um I get into stuff that I probably wouldn't have or wasn't even ready to get into an Ireland not that it makes it heavy or anything. It's just maybe there's a little more meat on the bone in Scotland. So no thanks, I appreciate you saying that Randy. Yeah, and I think too it's it's also every people that have been to these places. I imagine it just these the words and like the description of the

golf courses and picture and it brings like that nostalgic feeling when you're talking about nostalgia earlier. But see, and I just, I kind of perked up during parts of the book when you're writing about a course that I've been to before. I'm like, oh, I can't wait to see what he has to say. And I imagine a lot of your audience in the book has been to at least a decent amount of some of these places

and that kind of their inspiration for reading the book is a little bit stronger because they've had that experience. Is that what you find? Yeah, you know what, yeah, people definitely, it's funny. Yeah, the friends will be like, oh, I just skipped to this chapter, skip to that chapter because I wanted to read about, you know, when we played here or there,

which is fine, but I'm like, you know, dude, get the context, read the whole book. You know, it all fits together. And so, yeah, I think people will do that. Hopefully they'll find new courses too. The thing I probably get most nervous about, and I've, and then I've felt most relieved about, is when Scott's read the book.

And that's been, because there are scots who are in the book, you know, I sent the book too, and who are characters in the story. And I'm writing about someone else's country. And that is, it's not my first time doing it, but there's always a little apprehension about doing that and making sure you want to get it right. And at least to the point where someone is from there would say,

yeah, you got that right. You got that part right or that makes sense or you did that. So it's been really good to hear from Scots who I'm sure flipped right to the description of their home course and and felt like I did it justice or that they got to laugh a little bit about their country and or at themselves or that I, or that I learned something about the Scottish temperament that I was right about and not just making up because 57 days you only gather so much but living that kind of pretty intense 57 days I hope I learned enough to get it right. And so far most people seem to be telling me that I did. I don't know.

What sounds like you were hit with pretty, not just a spoiler, but it sounds like you're hit with pretty brutal weather for about two months straight. Yeah, it's funny. You know, I got there and they're like, you know, it was cold, it was wet, and everyone was telling me, oh, you missed summer, it was a week in April. And you got out of summer

in June and July and like where is the summer? And towards the end we got like two solid weeks of good weather which Was when I needed it the most I mean I was losing it there were days when you know, I wasn't walking but You know you're sitting there in the clubhouse or in your car looking out at the golf course that nobody's on And thinking like I'm about to go like walk forth into that and I've already played 18 or 36 that day and There's no reason for me to do this. So I mean like there were definitely like bouts of like golf depression

Which is a very entitled thing to feel and experience. Yeah. Like that feeling. And I know you guys probably know too, though, and it's just like, I can play no more. But I must. What kind of starts to blend together probably a little bit and you're like, if you, if you play it too many too quickly, then they can kind of, the special nature of a lot of the places can kind of lose its context. Is that fair to say? For sure.

I mean, that you, there are some days or were some days where it was kind of lose its context, is that fair to say? For sure. I mean, there are some days or were some days where it was kind of like, let's just get through it, you know, and cross it off the list. But the funny thing is about golf, like you'll hit a shot or you'll find a golf hole, we're suddenly that stops and you pause and you look and you're like, this is awesome. This is what I'm doing this, you know?

So yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I ever like, there was a golf course, I ever kinda like, just blanked my way through. There were probably certainly some golf holes where I would have, but there wasn't a course that didn't at some point wake me up and say, you're in Scotland, you're a lucky bastard because you're in Scotland,

and you're lucky to be on this golf course. And those were the things that, when I go home at night, my journal, those were the holes and the moments that I'd write about. And they're the ones that you did, you know, that I think that made it into the book. And I think our season two of Taurusos on Scotland is going to come out very soon. We're actually going to line up this podcast, launch with that season. But two of the golf courses that we played on that trip were two that I hadn't seen before. They were Kill Spindy and Cullen that kind of helped shift my paradigm.

I don't want to speak for you, Randy, but my paradigm on what golf is and that it does not have to be 7,000 yards par 72. Did you encounter any golf courses like that in Scotland that kind of made you just think about golf in a totally different way? Yeah, Kill Spindy and Cullen. Yeah, yeah. Next question. Next question. Yeah, we're, I told you, we're on the same page.

No, but those were definitely courses. Kill Spindy was awesome. It's a golf course where my friend got hit in the face with a drive from another hole and survived the tale, the tail of the tail. So that's actually like my most prominent memory of Kill Spindy is like flying jewelry and broken eyeglasses and it was terribly scary at the time. Now we can all kind of smile and laugh about it. But Colin, yeah, Kill Spindy is a short course that's just a pure blast.

It's just awesome. And then but Colin was a real eye opener because you know, that's a golf course that's just a pure blast. It's just awesome. And then, but Colin was a real eye opener because, you know, that's a golf course. You literally, I mean, you don't hit driver. I mean, you can't, there's a few holes where you can. But just, and you look at the scorecard and you're like, I'm gonna tear this thing apart and you go out there and just get humbled in a wonderful way.

And just, you know, squeezing in golf holes where there's no business being a golf hole. Like I just love those kind of courses that just made so much with the cool property that they were given. Colin did that. Of course, and there's another one, Shiskin, out on the Isle of Aaron, that's a 12-holder that was the same experience for me, which is why, you know, I think in the book, I talk about, you know, the origins of the 18th whole round and why I sort of question it. Just because St. Andrews decided it should be 18, and eventually the rules of golf, like in the 1950s, catch up to that.

But there's a long time when there wasn't any official number around the golf or any concept of a required yardage for any course. These are like relatively new concepts. So you play it's just in our calling, our covesy, or the great nine-holers around Scotland and Ireland, and it does open your eyes to what you thought a golf course had to be to be good. And you realize it's like, it just has to be a good,

I just wanna have a good shot. Like right now, right here in this place, want to have a cool golf shot to play and you know all the rest of it is is whatever and there are so many courses like that and shishkin was of course I specifically wanted to ask you about because it's not one that I've been to and I mentioned 99.9% of the people listen to this have not been there but I want you to take me there what is that golf course like and why that's the golf course that you wrote about in the golfers journal as well, correct? It is, yeah. I mean that was a place. So the island Aaron, we were taking a ferry over there.

You know, we played, you can play around like air shower, like trun and all that, Thurmberry, and then you can take the ferry through Aaron to get over to Mock Ranish, where you can drive all the way around and throw up in your seat because it's really the drive is not the drive is tough man. So we took the ferry through Aaron and Aaron is a little island with like nine short courses on it and so we had like time to pick one and we picked very well. So Shyskin is this again it's 12 holes and they are front six and a front back, which I decided is the Goldilocks ideal, perfect number of golf holes. Because like, nine always feels kind of like, I went out and practiced, like I didn't really

finish. But playing like a front six, front back six, 12 holes, two and a half hours, there's something ideal about that. But the setting itself, it's kind of, it's got these crazy geological rock formations that are similar to the giant's causeway in Northern Ireland, these hexagonal rocks that shoot up out of the earth and they're like these basalt columns, and they're all over the property. So some of the back treups for some of these greens look like Jurassic Park.

I mean, it's like, it's prehistoric in feeling the way the place looks. And they routed it great because the T-boxes will take you way up to the top of them and play down to the bottom. And it's a perfect mix of like short, mostly short holes, a couple long holes, not all part threes, you know, couple drivable holes, just super, super, super fun.

And every time, and I've been back a few times since the book and a trip to Aaron, we always swing through shisking. It's just, it's a great great day. I always think Well specifically of Colin I haven't played shisking but the best analogy I think I have for Colin and courses like that is like I'll go miniature golfing with my young nephew and niece and the excitement and joy that they have for miniature golf just because it's like, oh, this is a cool shot and what a cool hole. It's like, I feel like that's that's like the closest feeling that I experienced at a place like Colin is just, you know, it's a mix of

oh my gosh, cool scenery and that's such a fun shot and just being out there. That's exactly what Colin is like. I mean, there are a few of those part threes. You're like, I got to hit it where? Yeah. And it breaks all the rules. It does, and you realize that's fun. Like that's not a bad thing. If you're having open mind, and you're not all too terribly

concerned about preserving your handicap or whatever, you know, it's just so so fun that kind of golf. And that was a colon. There's a golf course not far from San Andres called Anstrother. That's a par or a nine hole course that has a couple holes like that. There's a course near colon called Kovi that we found that was very much like that. Just really some really goofy, fun, wild golf shot. So I love that stuff where yeah, that's a great analogy. It does feel like mini golf in the best way. And it also feels like you're discovering something because like, you don't know anybody

who's played these courses. And you don't know anyone. And most of your friends would be like, screw this dude. Let's go, let's get up to doorknock, you know, at least my friends would. So the fact that you stopped and played, you feel really lucky, you know, and that's that's a cool feeling to. You know, obviously the physical land has has a lot to do with how special a course like Colin and Chiskin and, you know, etc. are. I guess my, well, I guess my question is twofold.

Absent land like that. Are courses like that possible over here in the US and, you know, do you think we'll ever see some fun, nine-hole, 12-hole routes that are publicly available. I hope so. And I don't think you can recreate, I don't know if you can recreate like Colin, Covesie, Shiskin, like those, you know, again,

cause there's the formation of the British Isles, just blessed Ireland and Scotland and whatever, with these incredible coastlines that are have huge doon scapes and And some of these wildclif tops that are just really I don't know I think they're pretty unique to that part of the world. I mean we do have coast I guess I don't know. I mean some of the cliffs at Cabot some of the cliffs at Pebble Beach I don't know. I guess you can pair some of that, but like the way that at Column where you essentially have like cave walls that have

been washed out and but some of the some of the cliff remains. So you play like through like what was formerly a cliff that's now all been eroded away. That's amazing. And the fact cliff that's now all been eroded away. That's amazing. And the fact that you can golf there is pretty wild. So yeah, I mean, I think we can, I think we have the opportunity to do some really interesting stuff with some of our great landscapes, you know, in America for sure. But I think people need to change their perspective of what they need a great golf course to be. And or what a destination course has to be and I think we're starting to see a little bit of that. I mean you guys know all about Sweden's Cove. I don't, but I also think you know that sometimes you know

it's some of the Kaiser properties. They're trying to do some different stuff. I think there's different, there are different things happening in golf now that weren't, no one would think, think, no one would ever build a golf course like that 30 years ago. So I think there is some changing perspective on like the fun factor and just going out and like a place like Winter Park is a golf course that does flow into the middle of a town in Orlando, you know, in Winter Park in Orlando. So it has some of that vibe and it's a great golf course. I'm actually gonna go searching maybe, maybe for another, in another project,

go searching for those kinds of experiences, these places we're talking about to see if I can find them in America. I suspect more of them are out there than I'd think. But when we think of great golf courses in America, we think we look at the top 100 list, we look at the top 100 list, we look at the top 100 resorts or the top. And those places, it's not even the same,

you're not even reading the same book when it comes to these other courses that we're talking about. So quite different. Yeah, and I think so much of what you'd all goes back to what you said is the soil type. I mean, we all kind of want to play these shots along the ground in bandins. The only place I've been in the US, I think that even comes close to replicating that sound

when the ball hits the firm turf and the compressing of that firm turf is probably the closest thing I've seen. But yeah, I mean, they have the crunch of the of the, of the Lynxie golf. And I will say I just returned from sand valley this weekend. So just to shout out to them that that's's golf on the sand you know you definitely get a linsey thing there and stream songs got a little bit too um they've got sand so yeah sand based soil makes all the difference okay uh along the same lines what I asked about Ireland where they're and you I know you've already mentioned a couple of them so that might be the answer but kind of three to four courses that

stick out to the most is meaning the most or some that were really under the radar that maybe you haven't mentioned. Yeah, so I mean, a top set of the pops for me was probably Crune Bay. I talked about Ask Grinish and that's like, you kind of put that in a different category and I would put it at the number one of that category because it's just a different kind of experience and not for everybody, but it was definitely for me. But Crune Bay, I just loved it. I mean I thought I just had a great blend of a lot of Scottish courses don't have like the big hulking dunes that a year kind of that

I got gotten used to in Ireland. Some of them can be a little more subtle. The golf courses and the dunes are small or whatever. Any kind of need a different kind of lens to appreciate why they're so great. And they are. Crune Bay, you don't need to look very hard. The place is a romp, man. It's like a climb and the dunes are wild. And you hit some really quirky blind shots that reminded me of LeHinch and great welcome there, super people. So we just had, and you know what,

I got sunshine a crew. That helps a lot. Let me guess you played pretty well too, probably. And I played well. That's exactly the ultimate combo for picking favorite courses for me, as long as I was like, oh, it was sunny and I shot what? Yeah, that's my favorite course.

Totally, you know, it's so subjective, you know, like, yeah, there are all these different metrics one could use, but I talk about it in the book. I'm more into like, how excited would I be if you told me I got to play there tomorrow? And my gut will know, we'll be able to gauge then how good that course is to me. And so Crune Bay would be like, way at the top of that list. Brawler was so much fun. I could play that forever. I'm just so quirky and cool. I like Nairn a lot. I know you guys went up there. Just for like, just as like a pure, lengthy, old school, 9-9-in, there's just pretty, pretty

good. Yeah, that's a good one for sure. Those are the easy ones. I'm gonna put you on the spot with a harder one. Is there any courses that you played either in Ireland or Scotland that kind of you looked at curiously and like, wow, that didn't quite meet the hype. That one is not as highly rated on my list

as a lot of other people have it on their list. Yeah, for sure. Turnberry before, now I played it right before they did the remodel. Okay. So I was like, probably played it in like the last month before they shut it down. So I had high expectations, obviously, because it's turnberry. And it's got the, you know, what I knew of it, you know, lighthouse. So I'm thinking old head, I'm thinking drama along the cliffs and water,

and I just didn't find that I found it to be not as dramatic as I'd hoped or expected. Now I know in the redesign, that's why they did the redesign to sort of bring more excitement into the layout. So that was probably one where I was like, oh that's good, but it didn't feel like turn very good, like as what I expected that to be. Other ones, I would say, I don't know, we just got pissed on it, Trune. And I had just like, I had almost zero fun because of the weather and it's fun to play and wind. It's not fun to play in rain no matter what the matter where I don't want to be whiny and not about it. But I'm being like, oh, the rain ruined my day.

But honestly, after the postage stamp, I was kind of like, all right, I'd rather play Presswick like 100 times than do this. So that probably, it's funny with the Rota courses. Some blow you away, Hoy Lake did not blow me away. They blow you away for their history, they blow you away in the clubhouse when you see all those pictures and names and all that. It's like, wow, I can't believe I'm here. But then sometimes as golf courses, they're major venues because they have the room and the parking and the

space and the history. My favorite of all the road courses was probably, aside from the old course, is probably Presswick, which is the tiniest squeezed in little they can't even they can't play anything there anymore because there's no room you know so yeah I would true yeah they were the true and who are they to everybody probably didn't leave live up to the hype that I that I placed upon them fairly or not I guess Tom coin hates the west coast of Scotland we can take that to the print I am no I'm no longer welcome back there press like I was to say you saved yourself with that one. So I just play around there for a bunch. How's your game? How's your game today, Tom?

Hey, the game's not bad. I had enough of down summer. I was playing pretty good for a couple of months and then not so good the last month or so. It's funny when school starts back up, my golf, for whatever reason tends to take a bit of a dip. I guess because I feel guilty being out there knowing that I've papers to grade and stuff. But yeah, I think, you know, Scotland definitely when I came back,

I felt like I was hitting it a lot better. And just because you sort of are forced to learn that like contact first is the most important thing. And you just, I just had a real short punchy swing that was like actually like really effective over there. And sometimes I can do it over here too, which is fun. I can actually, I don't know if you call it a knockdown or not, I just can hit it low which I could never do before.

You know, my Scotland trip. So I'm playing all right. I guess I'm a three handicap right now. So I'm not like solid good, but. All right. All right. No, dude, dude, I've seen that move. Crazy club at speed.

Yeah, I mean, all right. Let's wrap it at that then. Let's just before we get, before we get down to anything else, the book is a course called Scotland, if you couldn't tell, where could people find that Tom? Anywhere books are sold, your local independent bookstore, BarnesNobleAmazon.com, whatever your thing is. Awesome. Thanks so much for spending an hour with us

and helping us reminisce a bit on our trip and excited about the stuff we have come in and congratulations on the book's success and I hope you do this again sometime. Thanks so much for having me on great talking to you. Thanks Tom. Cheers. That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most.