No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 181: Brandel Chamblee (Part I)

Episode Date: December 10, 2018

Subscribe to the No Laying Up podcast on iTunes here Golf Channel analyst and professional golfer Brandel Chamblee joins the podcast to talk about his career, golf instruction, the dynamic of his relationship with other... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 181: Brandel Chamblee (Part I) appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Alright guys, welcome back to the podcast. Got a fun one today. It's gonna definitely be a two-parter.

Had a great conversation this past week with Brandyl Shambly of the golf channel. He's someone I wanted to have on for a long time. I think he's a polarizing figure. I definitely don't always agree with him, and we talk a lot about that. I do always respect the fact that he is well researched, and he backs his opinions up, at least with some sorts of facts. We kind of get into it a little bit on the back half, actually a lot a bit on the back half regarding course design, technology, and that whole circular issue. I know he rubs a lot of bit on the back half regarding course design, technology, and that whole circular issue. And I know he rubs a lot of people the wrong way and his way of going about it on Twitter

and whatnot. But I think that conversation, we were more aligned than I thought we would be. There's definitely some points that we debate pretty heavily in it. But big appreciation for Brando for coming on and sitting down for an hour and a half, almost an hour and 45 minutes or so. Just talking golf, you can tell how much the guy is very passionate about golf. Whether you like him or not, I think it's very fair to consider it at minimum, consider the things that he says.

And I guess I like him for what he does for the game of golf, how much he cares about it and the passion he puts into it. And if you guys have been on the internet today, I'm imagining that you've seen the buzz surrounding Calloway's new driver teaser video. And we were lucky enough to get a first look at this thing as well as we got to see a couple of the pros try it out for the first time. A couple of weeks ago at the ad shootout in Carlsbad,

and believe me when I say this driver is absolutely going to shock people. The technology in it is something that has never really been accomplished before in the golf equipment industry. And it's gonna be a quantum leap in driver performance. But don't just take my word for it. For those of you that listen to the All-East Schneider Jans podcast last week, or if you didn't listen to it,

I guess here's what he had to say about the driver. Because I normally am right around 183, 184 would be like I'm really pumping it right now and I hit 189 and I've never seen that. The only time I've seen anything close to that is when it's really hot out and I'm really warmed up and in the middle of the season I might get close to that but this was with I was wearing a sweater at 10am and my Liana 60 degrees out. And I was hitting it 183 with my driver was maxing it out and I hit 189 with this one once. It was just like 155 for personal business. Yeah. Ridiculous. Yeah. Be sure to check out the videos on all of Caloay's

social channels or at caloaygolf.com slash AI and stay tuned for details on January 4th. Without further delay, here is Brandyl Shambly. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast for the first time. We've been wanting to do this for a while. Always wanted to do it in person, but we're down here at your club here in Orlando. That's right.

That's right. Brandyl Shambly, welcome to the show. Well, thanks for coming down. I always enjoy your stuff and nice talking to you. Look forward to it. Yeah, looking forward to it a lot. I know there's a lot I want to the show. Well, thanks for coming down. I always enjoy your stuff and nice talking to you. Look forward to it. Yeah, looking forward to it a lot. I know there's a lot I want to get into. I kind of want to start with your career first.

And I know that a lot of people are kind of quick on the trigger to throw back at you that you only won once on tour, but I think that's one very unfair, I think, making it to the professional golf and winning is a very, very impressive thing. And I also think you don't need to have one a ton on tour to have an opinion on things in golf.

Like you've been there and whatnot. But what are you most proud of out of your playing career? I guess the fact that I was a really good player, I had a heck of a career as an amateur golfer. I didn't start till I was kind of late, so I was kind of behind the eight ball, but the fact that I got so good, so quickly, and became one of the best top five amateurs in the country

and certainly one of the top five college players in the country. How'd that happen? I just worked out it really hard. I was a good athlete growing up. I did everything. I ran track and I was fast, so I was blessed with fast twitch muscles and played football until guys got really big, and I rode horses

competitively until they fell over on me and kicked me enough where I was like, I gotta try something else. But once I took up golf, I fell in love with it. You know, there was something about it that was just magical for me and I never quit working at it. I'm a hard worker and I'm good at imitating golfers. You know, I'm good at imitating athletes and I'd go out in the backyard and I work on my

Jerry Payne backs wing and my jack Nichols leg drive and you know, hitting pit shots like Sevy and I just got good and Then you a student of the golf swing back then as you seem to be now. No, no, I wasn't I You know, I just I certainly read everything that was out there But I wouldn't say that I was a student of the game. There wasn't enough video capability available to really be a student of the game. I read and I looked, but I was always told by people in the game not to ever mess with my golf swing,

at least early on. And early on, I listened. I slowly became corrupted by instruction later on. But then I guess my professional career, I'm quite pleased with my professional career. I played a long time, the better part of 15 years, professional golf. I do get time. It's a long time. I get chuckle when people try to denigrate my career. You know, when you consider how many people want to play professional golf, how many people are trying to play professional golf. I think my highest world ranking was 55th.

I think we can all agree that when you've ascended to 55th best player in the world or 55th best at anything in the world, it doesn't matter what it is. You're extraordinary at what you do. So, you know, I was an extraordinary golfer. I was a decent tour player, but as a golfer, I was an extraordinary golfer. And I love every second of it. And I wanted to do something different for a variety of reasons.

And I think TV ended up being a means to an end for me to get out of golf. I think people can look at middle, quote unquote, middle of the road on the PGA tour as being average, but when you think about how many people are playing professional golf, and honestly getting to know some of the web.com tour guys that play in Jacksonville and stuff,

seeing that grind and falling them week to week and like trying to see if they can maintain their web tour status. It's a whole different appreciation for guys. Well, that's the big tour. The thing about golf, that is different from every other sport. And every other sport, there is a substantial differential between the very best and the average in that sport.

And even the worst in that sport, it would be somewhere to fall somewhere between 20 and 40 percent. The difference between the very best in golf. It's 3%. It's 3% between the very best and the tour average, about 7% between the very best and the worst. So if you're one of those players that can find their way to the tour and maintain your status out there for a period of time, you're touching very near the heights of exceptionalism. And so yeah, there were a few times where, and look, if you're a golfer,

you're very good at lying to yourself. You have to be. There was hardly a day that went by when I was on the reins. I wasn't hitting shots. I would say nobody in the world can beat me. Nobody in the world can hit these shots. You have to think that way. And you do. And I believed it. I absolutely believed it. I worked very hard at it. Now, look, you'd get paired with Nick Price or Tom Watson or Greg Norman and you'd think, all right, you just got slapped in the face with some reality there. And you'd go back to work in your mind the way it works is you're like, all right, I'm

going to get there. I don't know how I'm going to get there, but I'm going to get there. And you go back to work. But when you see a player come along of that ilk, you realize, okay, maybe my dream is a child to be the best golf in the world is not gonna be realized, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna stop trying and that doesn't mean you can't beat him on a week-to-week basis. Yeah, I mean, that's the way golf is.

You know, given such a fine line between the best and the tour average, That's why if you win 3% of the time, you'll be in the Hall of Fame. You touched on it there. You said something along the lines of being corrupted by instruction. What does that mean and what kind of happened to you along that process? You know, when I got really good at golf, I happened to live in an area that was a mecca for instructors in Austin, Texas. And so, you know, there were 10, 20, 30 of the quote, unquote, best instructors in the world sort of traipsing around where I was. And, you know, at any given time, I'd look around, there'd be several of them watching me hit golf balls. And inquisitive as I was, you know, you'd

begin to talk to them and little by little, you begin to be corrupted because certainly at that stage, less so now, but certainly at that stage, they were guessing. They were completely guessing. And whatever they were telling you was, you know, likely wrong. I say now, and to some extent, with few exceptions, you know, if you would be just as well served trying to do the opposite of what a instructor tells you as doing what they tell you, it might just work, whatever they're telling you. I mean, it has just as good a chance. You know, it's becoming less that way. I think instruction has improved greatly in the last four or five years because of high definition video and things like pressure traces, understanding pressure traces.

When I was growing up, and even until, I don't know, maybe even eight, nine, ten years ago, you go back and you watch TV and you realize how blurry things were. We all thought it was great. But the arms were blurry, the hands were blurry, the club face was blurry. You could not definitively say what someone was doing. And these little micro moves are very important. And then, you know, as you're looking at the club and you're looking at the hands and you're looking at the arms, you're also missing really what's going on, what's causing

those things to happen. And that's the larger part of a piece of the puzzle is, you know, when you're just looking at video, you can't really tell how much weight is where, and where a player is moving, and where they're extending and so forth. But, just high definition video, some forensic devices that allow us to measure those things have really helped instruction. And that's the reason why you're going to see an influx of players come to the PGA tour. Well, that's a large part of the reason why you're going to see an influx of players come to the PGA tour that swing 125 miles an hour plus. Because instruction has gotten better, athletes have gotten

better, and it's going to be cool to watch. I struggle with understanding instruction at the highest level in golf, because, inherently, it's not like talking about golf. It is, for somebody like Dustin Johnson, he is one of, if not the best, in the world at figuring out how to hit this golf ball. And the instructor, whoever is helping him, doesn't know the feeling of what it's like to hit the ball, like DJ.

So what is an instructor do? In my mind, it's like, all right, instructor is there for if you're not doing something well to help identify what it is. But how does a player balance between taking too much information from an instructor and being like, this is exactly what I need help with? Do you have any insight into that?

Well, I'd say first that every golfer is different. And an instructor, I think, would get a pretty clear grasp on that, just with a five minute conversation to know if they're feel-oriented player and any specific things as it relates to the golf swing will sort of clutter up their mind. But in general, I say that teachers learn from athletes, not the other way around.

You know, it's the athlete that originates. And with very few exceptions, I would say that's true. You know, Jack Grout told Jack Nicholas to get his hands high and he flew his right elbow. Now I'll give Jack Grout a lot of credit because at the time he was teaching Jack Nicholas Jack, I think started playing around 1950s. You can imagine the height of the popularity of Ben Hogan led to the movie, follow the

sun. It all came about 1950. There would have been you'd imagine every teacher teaching a flat golf swing. Power golf came out in 46 or 7 by Ben Hogan. But yet Jack Grout didn't teach that because Jack Grout had a great understanding of the golf swing that he had learned from Henry Picard, he learned from Alex Morrison. So he taught Jack to hit the ball high, Jack originated. You know, I use as an example the Fosbury flop a lot. You know, when Fosbury originated that move, his teachers, his coaches implored him to stop it,

that he was losing his mind, you know, three, four years later, every single high jumper which using the Fosbury flop. Same as during golf, you know, I mean, Dustin Johnson has the type golf swing that allows him to rotate very fast and an extent. Some of the arguments that I get in within instructors is I will start talking about a particular move that a player has as being extraordinary and being exceptional and being commonality amongst the best. They'll shoot out somebody else who does it completely different. Of course, there's any number of ways to swing a club or play the game, any number, but

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that they're all equal, not by a long shot. The commonalities that the greatest players of all time, don't say that. Don't say that at all. There is a definite advantage to players that rotate faster and extend more and hit the ball higher. And Dustin Johnson is a supreme, an absolute supreme athlete. And how good is he? There's only three players in the history of the world rankings that have held the world ranking of number one,

the number one spot for 60 consecutive weeks or more. There's only three tigers, Greg Norman and Dustin Johnson. So it's, and he's, he and Roy McRoy really are the only two in my mind that have the potential to dominate the world rankings. Somebody like Bryson, are you, are you supra, I guess not even somebody like Bryson, specifically to Bryson to Shambho, are you, because I don't think there is anybody like Bryson. Are you, are you supra, I guess not even somebody like Bryson? Specifically to Bryson to Shambo. Are you, I don't think there is anybody like Bryson? Are you surprised at how well his methodology is working at the highest level in golf?

I am. I am. And for a while I thought he might change the game of golf. I don't anymore. But for a while I thought he might, you know, he changed the game of golf, I don't anymore. But for a while, I thought he might, you know, he changed the game of golf. I thought that if in fact he came to dominate the game of golf, in other words, hit the ball higher, longer, straighter than anybody else. And he's, look, he's got a heck of a method. And he's a heck of an athlete. And he's a very, very hard worker,

great attitude. And that carries you to the PGA tour, Perseverance and a great attitude. But his particular method, you know, it's great because he owns it. He spent a lot of time reading the golf machine, still does, I guess, he talks about it. But it's his own interpretation of the golf machine. Every other player that I've ever seen try to play professional golf, who read that book,

had a, I'd say, an interpretation that is consistent with Ben Doyle, who primarily taught that book, and Chuck Cook, is another one who, who I think respects that book. And they carry angled, ride arm angle, lag deep into the downswing. And the two biggest proponents up were Bobby Clampett and Michael Grady. Both great athletes, but neither of them had significant success. And I would say that for almost 50 years that book's been out, and everybody who's played this game has basically tried to read that book,

a lot of it's nonsense, and tried to bring whatever ideas they have to fruition without much success. I always argued that very early on in that book, it states that the head cannot move, that the head must stay still. And my argument about the specifics in that book are how can you expect me to believe any of the specifics of that book

when they get something as simple as the head staying still, which it doesn't never has, never will for any great player. When they get something as simple as that wrong, how could they be right on any of the particulars? But anyway, Bryson has his own interpretation of that book and hard work. He doesn't carry lag deep into his downswing and he rotates and he covers the ball

and he does a lot of cool things. Back to your playing career, I believe I've read about it. I don't believe I've ever heard you talk about it, but your story from the 1999 Masters, I believe it was the only Masters you played in, correct? That is. Yeah. And I wanna know, like your story from the 1999 Masters, I believe it was the only masters you played and correct. That is. Yeah. And I want to know, like, your mindset coming into that week, how you played the first couple

of days and what happened on the weekend and just kind of your memories from the 99 Masters. Well, you know, I spent the week before the Masters actually practicing here in Orlando. At that time, I was working with David Leadbetter, and Nick Price was down there working with Lead. And so, I think even Fowler was in in Orlando at that point. So it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, you know, every, you know, it seemed like every good player

was trying to tune up that week somewhere here in Orlando and I spent a lot of time pitching and chipping off the putting green that week, because at that time you couldn't find any place to simulate the agronomy. You were going to face it Augusta National. So I came in there, actually Nick Lonemey is playing. I paid for it but he essentially Lonemey is playing to fly up there. I love him since he did that.

Yeah. Yeah. He had, I don't think he was going up till later, and he said, you know, just, you know, take my plane up there. I can't remember what type of plane it was, but anyway, it was, it was a hoot to fly straight into Augusta.

How much does that cost to loan a plane from a friend? I think it cost me like four grand. I think I had to pay for the gas just to get there. I think that was it. It was, I think that's what it was. Maybe it was a bit more, but anyway, I went up there and I was in pretty good shape with my game, but more than anything, I had my arms around. How to play that golf course because a good friend of mine, Glenn Day, was really good

friends with Nicholas and had gone in and Jack had gone over every single hole and the specific strategy for every hole location and charted it out in his yard's book. So Glenn and I played a practice round and right there in front of us was the key to a gust of national from the greatest player of all time. So I knew where to hit it when the hole location was sort of front-right at one, and I knew where to hit it when the whole location was front-right at three and left at three and right at four and back-left at six.

So I had a very clear image in my mind. I'm not only where to hit it and what shots to hit, and I didn't have any doubt. So I actually, I was tied for lead after round, but it's funny. When you're playing well and when you've got a very clear understanding of how you need to play a golf course, I didn't really feel like I did anything exceptional that day, other than just not getting nervous and just playing golf. And I was in a great group with two guys that I liked a lot. Bill Glassen was in that group. He and I ended up tied at a week's end and then Jose Maria

Althaba, who went on to win. So it was, it was, it was a Marvel suite. It was a magical week. I had my best friends, my former sponsor and my best friend was there and they brought him barbecue for my favorite place in Texas and You know some of my family members came in none of them know anything about golf none. I mean zero zero They know nothing like my older brother Bill. He's got his own law firm He does extraordinarily well in life and he rented an enormous bus and brought some of his biggest clients, hired country and Western singers to sing the whole way over barbeque. He showed up and he was like, you know, wear my tickets.

And I was like, Bill, you know, I only get eight tickets. And I have to buy them all myself. And you know, Bill was funny. He was like, oh, no problem. I'll go get tickets. And I was like, well, they're really hard to get. I don't know how you're gonna get them. But he did.

He ended up getting them. Really? You know, he did, He ended up getting him. Really? You know, he did. Well, money solves a lot of problems. My dad actually found a weak badge walking into, on the very first day, he found a weekly badge to Augusta National on the ground. And he picked it up and he walked over to one of the

Pinkerton guards and said, look, I just found this badge, and I'm sure somebody's gonna be looking for it. And the guard looked at my dad like he was an alien. He was like, you're giving me this badge that you found. And my dad's like, yeah, I'm sure somebody's looking for it. And I'm sure somebody would like to have this badge. He's like, do you have any idea what this is worth? Nobody gives these, nobody.

And my dad was like, well, I don't want to take it from somebody. That's a golfer right there, and play them by the rules. Yeah, but my, you know, my, but my family doesn't really know anything about golf, but they, but my best friend, but he did. And we had some wonderful nights sitting on the back patio there to gust a national. And then take, take me through, like, going into the weekend, what your nerves were like, where you were at on the leaderboard. Yeah, you know, I

I was in decent position. I think I was only a four five back after two rounds maybe maybe not even that far but I warmed up on Saturday and and You know, I just hit every shot, you know every trajectory every shot and you know, you've done that I've done that before every players done that before and and it doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna play great but usually never people are gonna play great but but I went out you know I hit a bullet fade off a one and a you know a nice high soft draw into that back left whole location I believe and just didn't miss a shot and I it was a couple under through seven and I looked up and I was too back and I remember thinking there's no way I'm not

winning this tournament there's no way I'm not winning this tournament. There's no way. Like nobody's going to beat me. I'm just hitting it too good. And I smoked it off eight. And I could get there. And I was just going to just torpedo this draw, three wooden kick left. And it got down under these trees or right up against these trees.

And I made double. And I was just so pissed off at myself for letting my emotions get the better of me because the minute I started up, we'll think about winning the thing on Saturday, mind you, not Sunday. Saturday, front night, my adrenaline level went up a little bit. My nerves got the better of me

and I didn't play anywhere near as good on the back nine. And then on Sunday, it was very difficult. It was blowing, it was cold. And I got paired with the Craig Stadler. I shot 72, I think the lowest score that day was 70. And I had sandwich in the 18, pin was front right. I hit it on the back of the green at three putted or I'd have gotten back.

I'd have finished 11th if I'd had two putted and eighth I think about a birdied. So I was in a really good spot. But the little putt I missed cost me getting an invite back. And when I finished Stadler, had a pretty funny line. He said, you know, that was great playing for two reasons. One, it was Wendy's Hell and two,

you had to watch me play all day. You had to get paired with me. But I think the coolest thing that happened to me that week was watching Jose Maria Althobble hit all these pitches and chips around the green. It was a, it was a kind of genius that you just don't see very often in your life. It was just gorgeous to watch. I'm, I'm riding or finishing up basically a book on the short game. And Jose Maria Alvabal will be, is everywhere in that book. He was a god is, he was what Ben Hogan was to ball striking, to chipping and pitching the ball. So watching him and then there was one particular moment on,

on Friday where we both drove in the same spot on 11 and the pin was back right just inside if you're looking at it from the player's perspective just inside the right edge of the back bunker and I I hit a five iron and I aimed front right and I didn't I didn't even sniff looking at that whole occasion and I smoked it Hit it perfect and it landed I was 30 feet right of the hole and I wasn't five feet from Jose Maria all the thaw but when his and he wanted hit a five as well. And his caddy, uh, Brendan, I believe was his name.

Can't remember his last name, a great guy. Forcefully told him it was a four. And Jose said, no, it's a five and he said, no, it's a four. It's a cut for. And you said, no, it's a five. And he said, no, it's a four. It's a cut for. And you know, he cutting it over the water. You don't want to live in 11. You don't want to live in 11. And they went back and forth for a bit.

And Jose finally relented and said, we'll see if you're right. But he said it. He was like, we'll see if you're right. And he ripped that four out of the bag. And I've always thought he had just the most gorgeous iron swing. He wasn't a great driver of the golf ball, but he was just a phenomenal iron player. And he ripped that forearm out of the bag. And he hit this high cut over the water that landed about four feet from the hole and stopped, you know, maybe three feet from the hole. And it was, it was

easily one of the greatest shots I've ever seen in my life. And listening to that caddy player exchange was just, it was stunning. Usually it's when you're trying to prove your caddy wrong, it doesn't work out. That's right. That's right. That's right. With you for 20 years. The Jose was such a great guy. You know, on 13-day-1. I hit a... It was when hybrids were pretty new and I hit a hybrid about three feet, almost made it. And he thinned. He was just in front of me and thinned. I think it was a two-iron, thinned it, and it hit short of race Creek and skipped over race Creek and up onto the front fringe of the green. And it was a terrific break.

And he made it like a 30 foot of free gold. And then I made mine, and we were walking off the green. I said, good eagle. And he goes, no, no, no. Mine was crap. Yours was good. And that was my best Spanish accent. But then there was another time, when I see,

I guess it was Friday, I hit it left of 13. Bill Glassen doesn't talk much. Great guy, but doesn't talk much. And I hit it left of 13 and I was absolutely screwed. There was just no shot that came to mind over there. I thought about Sandwich, I thought about a lob. I was like, I don't know what to do here in five. I thought, you know what? I've been watching Jose hit these little bump and runs.

So I pulled a forearm out and I hit the most beautiful bump and run up through the valley up about a foot from the hole. I mean, it was just totally improvised, totally in the moment. Not a shot you practiced. I hadn't practiced it, hadn't hit that shot all week. And it was one of those where you act like you do that all the time, but it was exceptional.

And as we were walking down 14, glass and sneaks up beside me, and he was like, what'd you hit that shot with back there? I said, I hit four. And he goes, you hit that shot much? And I said, never hit it in my life.

And he was like, I said, but I've been watching who is I to it for the last day and a half and you made it look pretty simple. I want to talk to you a bit about kind of the dynamic of your guys show, specifically kind of the live after on the majors and stuff. And how it's very entertaining television. I feel like you and your co-workers all have a very different approach into how you analyze golf, talk about golf and whatnot. What's your relationship like with your co-workers and whatnot?

Sometimes you guys get into it. I mean, is it part of the game, part of the spirit? Like, what is your relationship like? Well, you know, with my host, you know, it's fabulous with my fellow analysts. It's up and down, it depends. I don't know, everybody does the job differently. The way I do the job or the way I try to do the job is to I spend a month before a major championship

if I have it. to I spent a month before a major championship if I have it. And I, I, I, you ever heard a Robert Carro, C-A-R-O? I can't say that I have. Robert Carro. In journalism, the phrase Carro asked is what's known for exhaustive research. Like, he's written six books on Lend to Be Johnson. He wrote a book on urban planning in New York City that, well, you just don't need to know anything else. And that's the way I try to approach the job is sort of Carol asked. I try to to spend days on players that I think will matter.

And then I don't really want to know what anybody else is going to say. I don't want to know what anybody else is going to think. And I don't want to know what anybody else is going to think and I don't want to read anybody else's research because I don't want to have my own thoughts and So when you get on the air, it's it's organic. It's live You don't know what anybody's going to say. You don't know where it's going to come from now That's different because most of the time they'll have run down some scripts and people want to talk about what they're going to say on the air And I know I have to do that, but I don't I'm loath to do it I don't really like to do it because I think it takes away some of the spontaneity. But I always say, you know, look, I probably I've argued more with Frank than anybody else. And I, you know, Frank and I are not best friends. It's not like we go to dinner all the time or anything, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for him. And

I'd like to think he does for me. And the reason I argue with him, and I say this, and Frank and I talk about it occasionally, I don't do shows with anybody else quite like I do them with Frank. I argue with Frank because he is very thorough in his research as well and he comes at it from a different angle than me always. It seems like rarely do we agree on things, but his takes are, he's hot for them, you know, he's opinionated,

and he's a very bright guy, and I don't worry about upsetting him if we disagree, and he'll take it the right way, and it's never malicious, we have a lot of, I come at it from a lot of respect for him. I can remember, you know, like in, in 2013, when Tiger took the drop on the 15th hole at Augusta National, actually, when we said that was, that was Friday night, Friday, yeah, Friday. So I actually, on Friday show, tried to run that in the show, and I suggested it. And I said, you know, we, we need to show this drop, we need to talk about it. Before the controversy even came out. Before it even came out, because I knew the second he took the drop, it was wrong.

Because you can see the divot. I saw the divot, I knew it was wrong. And so I had the breakdown ready to go, and it got quashed, because a lot of people that were in charge of what goes on the air, were like it looked copacetic to them. They're like, that looks fine. I don't see what you're saying.

I'm like, listen, it is an issue. It's going to be an issue. This is a big deal. And, you know, we finished the entire show Friday night and we didn't, you know, what I was going to say got quashed didn't happen. Now that's rare, but it happened that night and I was scheduled to be on the air at 7 a.m. The next morning and when I walked in the And our production truck at about 6

You know everybody in there in turn. They were like We should have let you do that and I was like, you know, you pay me for my opinion you pay me for my thoughts It was like you know in this particular instance, I don't always get it right, but I knew this was going to, I knew this was going to be an issue. And so from seven o'clock till noon that day, that's pretty much all we talked about. And, you know, as I set on the show with, I'm trying to remember who it was, it was probably rich learner. They were revolving guests that came through there who all had, I think, a pretty similar take to mine. Novelo didn't come on till noon

and he had a completely different take, came at it from a different direction and it was a fresh take, it was something really that I hadn't thought about. And as he was sitting there talking, I remember thinking to myself, I love this guy. I love this guy, you know. Because he'll make me think, you know?

And that's what debate is in anything, in television. And sometimes, you know, people can accuse people of just taking the other side for a contrarian view and for ratings and whatnot. But at the same time, if you do it the right way, there's, if you have a certain opinion, there's probably things that you've blocked out of your mind and you don't want to think about

because you believe something already. And I think kind of the way you go about it is you are always going to be very well researched in what you come up with. It's not pulling, you're not pulling anything out of your ass. I will definitely disagree with things that you say at times, but never dismiss something that just because it comes from a certain person.

And I feel like some people do that with you where they are no matter what you say are going to take the opposite side. Do you feel that? Oh, yeah. I can tweet something that seems obvious to me. And, you know, the next day, it's, you know, it's, it's topic one and, you know, everybody's arguing. And, you know, and's, it's topic one on, you know, everybody's arguing and, you know, and I look, I like to argue, but when I'm trying to formulate my opinion on something, I, I always say

this, I don't do research to back up my opinions, I do research to find my opinions, and then when I find my opinions, I think of the counters to them, I think of the arguments to them, I think of any possible way to kick my opinion around and turn it inside out. So by the time I spit it out on the air, I'd like to think I've thought of every angle. And sometimes that's not the case. Sometimes people come on and I think, oh, I hadn't thought of that. Well done, you know, and good point.

But when you argue on Twitter, it's hard to argue on. It is hard, but I can recognize very quickly where someone's coming from. If someone uses profanity very quickly in a tweet, they're not coming from the right place. Their mind is not in the right place to argue. If they use insults anywhere in a tweet, they're not coming from the right place.

It's not worth arguing with these people because clearly they're not as you know, it's not worth arguing with these people because clearly they're not as rational as they could be. The non-secorters are what gets me the most when you say something and somebody's just completely twisted to it. Well, this, no, I didn't say that. Right, right. Strong man, non-secorters, ad homins, profanity, all those things. And it's like, look, the thing about Twitter is, is I wouldn't allow just anybody to come into my house, but that's what Twitter does. It allows, and I often say that you cannot allow,

and look, if there's a thousand people involved in a debate or a conversation, most of them will be well-intentioned. Most of them will be pretty rational, but it only takes a handful, five people to be completely out of their mind to set a very negative narrative. And they're the loudest.

And you can't let that happen. So that's why I block that. You still on a major blocking spree on Twitter? No, I slow it down a little bit. You know, I joke that I think I have blocked pretty much every idiot that exists. We're formally blocked by Brandna Shambli. We've made it out.

How many people make it out of getting blocks from you? Not many, but almost every time I unblock somebody, I, and look, almost every single time. Maybe every time. I have found a new perspective about those people that I just, you know, look, I don't want to waste any time reading, you know, profane or rude people. So I just quickly blocked them.

You know, Aime and Lensch got me to Unblock John Huggins. He's blocked us. And I love John Huggins. I love him, you know, and I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but I love to debate him. Trying to think who I am blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm blocked you guys. I I'm trying to think I recently unblocked somebody else that I absolutely love reading, but I've started using the mute a lot more. I think that's kind of my dividing line is, all right,

I don't need to hear what you have to say anymore I don't want to read it anymore and I don't need to and then I use the block Exclusively for like you know what like you don't get it at all I don't want to say like you don't deserve the content But I don't this isn't for you like and I don't want to deal with this and like right if you're gonna come into the Conversations and use profanity and abuse people within the conversations and clearly be out there to troll like you're gone. Like it makes, it's not, it's something that is. There's a cost for that.

You don't get to participate. Now, you can go start another Twitter handle, but you come back with that attitude. You're gonna block that one. And you know, if there's people that are particularly abusive and profane and then they have friends that start in a sort of a less profane way tweeting me with them in it. I'll block them. Yeah. This is like, look, I go on Twitter to improve my arguments and to find out what I don't know

and to get access to great information. Twitter, Instagram, they're wonderful, wonderful sources of information. I, you know, they're like my newspaper. You know, they really are. I get most of my news from there. And you are just naturally polarizing in the way you go about things

and how definitive you are and a lot of the things you say, does it bother you at all when people dislike you or give you shit and has that kind of, is that evolved lot of the things you say, does it bother you at all when people dislike you or give you shit and has that evolved at all, the way you deal with that 10 years ago versus now has that evolved at all? Well, I wouldn't say that I was ever opinionated

when I played the tour. You know, I was on the advisory council and there were times when I would be called upon to make arguments for against things and I would do a lot of research for it and you know generally those things went very well. But once I got in the opinion business which is what TV is thought well you know if you're going to do this job right then you need to spend an enormous amount of time working so that your opinions are bolstered. And, you know, if you do the job right, you can answer the question, why?

Because, you know, people say, you know, I do use stats, but I don't use stats as a point. They are a source for a point. Anybody can spit out stats. They're the what? What's somebody shot? What amount of fairways they hit? Those are easy, very easy to look up stats and spit them out.

It's what the stats tell you. And when you start to answer questions about why things happened, people get very angry. They're comfortable with what? But people get very upset when you answer why or you try to answer why. And they were like, well, who are you to say that? And how do you know? And it's like, well, it's my job. First of all, in second of all, I spend a lot of time to figure out why things happen. And it is just an opinion. It's just my opinion. And I try to make it as well-boast or as I can. One of the things I find, I don't know if the word is endearing,

but what draws me towards certain analysts is when they have things that they've said, but then if they have the information to back it up, they will change their opinion or their take on it. You know, listen, I was wrong on this. I have come full circle on this. I try to do that as often as I can. Some of the European fans listen to this. We'll still say I haven't given up complaining about the Ligolf National and the influence of that hat on the Ryder Cup.

But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong if I'm getting the timeline wrong at any point. But you seem to be for bifurcation in golf, you know, professionals and amateurs using different golf balls equipment and you have changed your tune on that. What is the reasoning behind that? What kind of information has led to that? Well, originally, I was for bifurcation for because of anchoring. You know, I felt like anchoring was a godsend for older golfers and for amateur golfers. And I didn't think it had any business

being in professional golf. And I thought that the USGA had completely missed the boat, the RNA, they had completely missed the boat on that when it happened. When you know, when Orville Moody starts leading to putting statistics, something's wrong. Great ballstrucker, but you know, or maybe the worst putter that ever, ever,

ever lived, next to burn our liner. And, you know, the benefit of the anchor putter was obvious and it was clear. And, and the, the ability to negate the necessity for great nerves was clear. And they missed a vote on it. Yet all my friends used to hang for a putter. So I thought, this would be a perfect time to bifurcate. But the more I thought about bifurcation, the less I liked it. And it didn't really become necessary for me to state the fact that I had changed my mind on that

until the debate about the golf balls and equipment became so prevalent. And look, the reason I'm not in favor of bifurcation is because there's not just, there's thousands and thousands and thousands of golfers that want to play professional golf, thousands of them, they're everywhere. And there's thousands and thousands and thousands of people that want to get good enough to where they can think about playing professional golf. And if you bifurcate to the extent that professionals play

one set of equipment, nanometers play another, you're gonna muddy up the game of golf. You know, there's every golf course has 20 kids that wanna play professional golf. They're going to play whatever equipment the professional's play. So their handicap's not gonna be the same as amateurs. Professional golfers trying to play the game,

their handicap's not gonna be the same as amateurs. Professional golfers trying to play the game, their handicap is not going to be the same as amateurs, or it's not going to be based upon the same equipment. So they're going to be playing a different game, and the one great thing about golf, or many great things about golf, is that we all play the same, and really, tees are meant to bifurcate the game. You bifurcate by where you tee off. Holes change, strategy changes, the nature of holes changes. So you should be just paying attention

to the properties and you should buy for a cave. I come from a different school of thought, I think, on, on bifurcation, on the technology and everything. And, but to your point where you just said, I don't think, does any solutions to the issues are simple? And I think almost, and I don't want't want to frame your opinion on this too much, but I think you're almost of the opinion that we're too far gone with a lot of the technology that there's, it's impossible to go backwards.

And I agree with that. I can't imagine that it's overall good for the business of golf to go back to the golf ball of the mid-90s. Is that a fair way to say of the way you look at it? Well, the one that the one that the USGA clearly missed was the COR, the rebound effect of the driver. They missed that. That was on Frank Thomas' watch at the USGA in the early 90s.

In what way do they miss it? So explain kind of the history of what is happening. Well, the COR of a wood is, what is it, 0.73 or something? And with a metal wood, it's 0.8, it can be whatever, but they've set the limit at 0.82, but they didn't set that limit until after the rebound effect had been out and running.

They didn't say, whoa, whoa, whoa, these metal woods are illegal because they're nowhere near the COR of wood. There is a, in the rules, it's written that the face cannot rebound. And they didn't say King's X on it at all. So here we go with the Callaway Big Bertha and like drivers just coming out

and impacting the game in a huge way. I saw it up close and personally, my partner at the AT&T was a forehandicap. And I showed up one year, yet a Callaway Big Bertha, I can't remember what I was saying. I think I had a ping-dryer. I don't even know what I was playing then. But the year before we drove at the same,

the next year he was 20 yards by me. You know, he was a hell of a player. But something was up. He just drove the eyes out of it and he couldn't have desires anywhere near as good. So they missed the boat there. But if they want to sit down and have serious discussions about rolling back

COR, sure, I think that that would be, I could get my arms around that because they're going to have to make monetary reparations in a huge way to equipment companies because they've done a lot of research and there's intellectual property at work here and this is capitalism at work. The golf ball came about legally, came about fine. Everybody went by the rules, played by the rules. If you're in the business of making equipment, this is what you do. And they've done great jobs. And when I play with people, the equipment makes the game better. Amateurs drive it better. They had better irons, they had better wedges. The ball flies better, it flies further.

I think the game is better because of the equipment. I really do. I think to that point, I can agree with that if you say that it has probably brought more people into the game to play it. I don't know if, I don't think the game is better because the ball goes super far. And this kind of comes from a

Line I try to try to balance is I don't I'm not a I wouldn't say I'm a golf purist but like I love golf. I absolutely love it and I like hitting the ball really far as long as it's within the rules like I I want to see it keep hitting it further and keep hitting driver Wedge and degrees, but any time that I look at, sometimes whenever I have to play like a round of golf with like some rental clubs, and they're like kind of crappy rental clubs, I just start thinking about how to get the ball around the golf course way more than I think about my golf swing,

and I end up having way more fun doing that. I don't know why that necessarily is, but if you lower your expectations, you do, but it just becomes this, I don't wanna to say, the equipment is so good now that when I play poorly, it drags me down even more because it's like, oh, like this stuff is really, really good. I must be swinging it horribly to not hit it where I want it. Want to hit it.

And I think part of the fun and the challenge of golf has gone away in that regard and that shaping the ball around and hitting seven irons into par fours is inherently more interesting. It's harder. It's definitely harder, but I don't know if easier makes golf more fun. Well, I would first of all, I would say that if you were forced to play with that that rental set for any period of time past the day, you would get frustrated. Yeah. And you would look for better equipment. You would, you would very soon go look, I don't like hitting it high with this, you know, 10 and a half driver with the wippy shaft. Um, and maybe better is not the right word.

It makes golf different. Golf is different. Um, I, I think it's better just because I think it's more fun to drive the ball far. And the quickest way to improve in this game is to hit the ball far. That is the easiest way to improve. See, I think that's a major, major issue to me. I agree. And I think all the numbers correlate with that.

And I was interested in your perspective on this specifically because you've retired in what 2003, is that right? Well, yes. right around that time. And where did you rank on the driving distance when you played on tour? Well, it got progressively worse. The best I ever averaged in driving distance was 49. So if you look at whoever's 49th in driving distance right now, they probably averaged close to 300 yards.

They probably averaged close to 300 yards. Somewhere in that. But by 2003, I was low to go to the ProVI one. I didn't like the way it sounded. I didn't like the way it felt. I didn't like the way it flew. It hit a different window than I was used to looking at, pop straight up in the air. But golf was getting beyond what a player of my style could do very easily.

The game got a lot harder for players of my ilk. That's my point, 2001, 2003. The technology kind of screwed you a little bit, I think. You know, it just got a lot harder. Well, yeah, I mean, if I went, if I were 30 years old, and I was my height and my build now, I would swing the way Justin Thomas does. I would swing, I'm not saying I could swing that well, but I would try to hit the ball high, but I grew up trying to cover the ball and hit it low. So the new ball demands that you hit it up in the air,

the new club sort of screaming at you to hit it up in the air, the new club sort of screaming at you to hit it up in the air, to hang back, to extend your left leg and rotate as fast as you can. So it's a different game. Is it more fun to hit shots and curve the ball? Yeah, I mean, that's fun for sure. Curving the ball, growing up was a lot of fun, but it's also fun to, you know, to hit high towering drives and long three woods and get on par fives and two

and drive par fours and, you know, in some ways, you know, the changes in equipment have made holes better. You know, I'd argue that number 10 at Riviera is a better hole now that players can drive that green or they can't get on the green, but more of them go for it. When I played it, nobody went for that green. They laid up left. I'm going to have to stop you there. If I would ask this question, were more holes improved by distance or were more holes made less important because of distance. How many holes have been outdated for all of the equipment gains?

Well, you tell me which holes are outdated. Oh, I mean, there's a reason why we can't go to Cypress Point anymore, can't go to National Control. Well, there is a reason why we can't go to Cypress Point. It doesn't have anything to do with it. That's an example. You know what I mean? There's tons of classic golf courses that are just too short by today's standards where

the bunkers are. They don't matter anymore. They said that about Marion. Wasn't true. I say that about Paul Beats. They tricked Marion to hell. How did they do that? They grew up up.

They brought the fairways in. The greens were stimpin' what, 13 and a half or whatever they were. They made them rock hard. And just every shot you missed, you couldn't even hold balls in some of those sloped fairways. That's not the way the course was designed to be played. So it was an effort to protect poor. In 1950. And it's how I guarantee the Greens weren't stripping at 13 and a half.

Well, no grades were stripping at 13 and a half. That's not a different game. But all that is done in an effort to protect the poor. They had rough in 1950. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, of course. They had rough in 1950. Yes.

And they had rough in 2013. So that's the same. The width of the fairways might have been the same, might not, don't really know. The only differences that the Greens were firm and fast. But they're firm and fast at Augusta now, and they weren't in 1950. There's new teas added for Miri.

It was still short, but there was tons of new teas added to some of that. It was planned 7,000 yards. But they don't go to a lot of places like this. Well, I disagree that it was tricked up. Okay. And they shot 281 there. They shot actually higher than they shot in 1971. So that's what, you know, a lot of people that are

using the beach still. Pebble Beach still works, doesn't it? We'll see this year. Well, when you say using scoring, scoring. What other way can you measure a golf course? Other scoring can be manipulative. Like the score that which guys are going to shoot can be manipulated by how you set it up, where you put the pins, the conditions where you

can also be manipulated by weather. It definitely can. It can also be manipulated by skill. That's what makes the open championship so great is they, I mean, some of those courses again are getting very affected by technology, but the way the RNA runs it, they don't seem to be obsessed with protecting par for somewhere like the U- where the US open does. Yeah, well this is where I think it's just incumbent upon architecture to reinvent itself. If that is the debate, because before we go roll equipment back, I think it's incumbent upon architecture to explore other ideas if they're so inclined to challenge the players in a different way up and around the green. Let's say you can now drive it and you're hitting wedges into whatever, pick a number.

Most of the holes on a golf course. Well then let's figure out a way to challenge the players with slope or angles or bunkers that are in a spot where their longer players are tempted to drive it, you know, diagonal hazards. You know, there's any number of ways to do it the same way. I don't think it's any coincidence that the greatest architects came about in the transition period of the gutta to the Haskell ball, I don't think they were forced to reinvent themselves. So in that regard, there are a ton of golf courses

that do all the things you're talking about, but the way technology is now, the way they were designed is just not for the modern game, the bunkers that you can carry. And especially for the pros, the angles that you're talking about here, it just doesn't matter to them because they are so far down the fairway

or even in the rough, and they can hit the ball so high with the wedges that angles don't matter when you have a wedge, like for the most part, let's say this argument that doesn't. But when you had to roll a seven iron up there or land it in front of the green or come in from a club that's gonna roll out,

that made things very different. And even today, even the modern PGA tour designs or landed in front of the greener, come in from a club that's going to roll out, that makes things very different. And even today, even the modern PGA-tour designs benefit the guys that are going to bomb it down the fairway and have wedge into it. No matter how far back you move the T's, it just gives them more and more advantage. But that's always been the case. But it's not the correlation between the top players is now so heavily skewed towards the longest hitters compared to what it was 20

years ago. Oh, no question about that. And it compared to what it was in 2013. So then it has now become this, this, that is the greatest reward. So we agree something needs to be done. I agree. Yeah. Okay.

I agree. All right, guys, I hate to do this honestly, but I have to cut part one. There was no good spot to cut it, but we talked for another 50 minutes or so and just couldn't justify posting an hour, 50 minute podcast or whatever that would have been. So please do stay tuned for part two that will be coming Tuesday night into Wednesday morning, a lot more discussion on technology golf courses, the golf ball, and I press them pretty hard. I would say pretty hard. I was fair to him, but I wanted to get some answers from him on a lot of things.

So thank you for tuning in to part one. This was a lot of fun. And stay tuned for part two coming later this week. club today. That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Different.