No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 213: Mike Keiser

Episode Date: May 10, 2019

Mike Keiser has helped usher in a new era of golf in the United States, and in other remote places around the world. He joins the podcast to talk about the incredible story of Bandon Dunes, finding his architects, what courses inspired him, what he thinks are important to a golf experience, and a lot more. We're also thrilled to announce our partnership with Charles Schwab, and highly recommend checking out their feature on Mike Keiser and other "Challengers." Seriously, check these videos out: http://content.schwab.com/web/retail/public/corporatesponsorships/index.html Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different! Alright guys, welcome back to the podcast. Got an exciting announcement to make here in line with our guest which you will hear shortly. Which is Mike Kaiser, the developer of golf courses all over the world and very remote locations and one of the most influential people in the game of golf. I'm looking forward to you guys hearing that conversation had a great one with him and didn't get to cover all the

topics I wanted to and had to rush through. Some of the sites that he's worked on just because I was so intrigued with the band and story and the cool links and all the other stuff he's doing. But we do have a partnership announcement with Charles Schwab. That's who set us up with Mike Keiser. They have a series going on called The Challenger series. Now, want you guys to go to SchwabGolf.com and check out these videos I'm telling you. These are the videos that convinced us

that we wanted to work with these guys and they're doing some really cool things with the game of golf. Starting with in a couple of weeks, the Charles Schwab Challenge at Colonial, we are going to be out there on site. We got a bunch of content coming out that week on a podcast coming on a person that is highly tied to the area as well as some videos.

We sent Neil and Randy out to play the horrible horseshoe as many times as possible to see how many over part they are. So, really excited to announce our partnership with Charles Schwab, looking forward to doing some cool things with them this year, as well as being involved in the Charles Schwab Cup, some on the PGA tour champion. With that in mind, I want you guys to go to SchwabGolf.com and I want you to check out these videos. We're going to tweet a little teaser to the Mike Kaiser video that's going to go out with this podcast.

They've also got some with David McClay Kid. There's one with Casey Martin, Greg Norman we're hoping to kind of do a podcast series with a lot of these guys throughout the course of the year. So don't delay on getting to that and I won't delay any further. Let's get to our conversation with Mike Kaiser. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Langing Up podcast. Joining us, I believe from Chicago, a developer of golf courses in a lot of different locations. You've heard of a lot of them, most famously, band and dunes. Mr. Mike Kaiser, thank you so much for joining us.

You're very welcome, my name is Chicago, where it's a beautiful day, and I look forward to a great golf game tomorrow at Shore Acres, which is one of the premier courses in Chicago. Oh, my goodness. That is maybe my favorite golf course in the world. I was actually flipping through doing a bit of research Today, and I was listening reading some things you said and you said that the I forget if it's the fifth or the sixth the Beard's hole there at Shore Acres was your favorite Beard's that you ever saw is that right? That is true and particularly because it's like most Beard's sites It's totally flat and it's a just a wonderful green with this

flat and it's just a wonderful green with this trough running through the front of it and it's fun at shardakers because we can't the membership can't decide whether to ever pin the front half or not. It's an ongoing debate. Hey, it's probably the favorite one that I've ever seen. It felt like the widest one and it gives you plenty of space to actually find it. So, well, first off, I usually start with questions, but I got to tell you a story first. So back about six years ago, I used to work it for a big-for-accounting firm and I needed to pass my CPA exam in order to get a promotion. And I failed many, many, many times in doing so. And my dad dangled a trip out to band and dunes.

So if you finally, if you finally pass this thing, we will go to band and doons. That was the magic formula that I finally passed and ended up moving to Amsterdam and kind of change my life after that. So for that, I have to credit you. And I'm sure you've told the story a million times about about band and but at first, I kind of want to dive into where you learn the game and your golf biography before the development of bandin. So I learned the game as a caddy and player at the age of 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 at the Easter or a country club, a really mediocre nine hole, very league golf course, which I thought was the best thing. I had ever seen at the age of 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12. A typical day consisted of cadding, If we were lucky for nine holes, playing nine or 18 holes and having a big juicy club burger, I did that for five years and that hooked

me on golf. That was my main beginning. Those five years, wow, was that good. I wish every boy and girl could do the same thing. Well, and I'm not sure if this question has The answer this question has changed since band and open But I kind of want to go back to the time again still before ban and even before the dunes club Which I believe you built in around 85 is that sound right? Yeah, that's about right I want to know like what were the what were the golf courses or golf experiences you had up to that point that had had the biggest impact on you. So my guide, first of all, Chris was the golf digest tap 100.

I couldn't believe that that book existed. Someone gave it to me or I found it. I don't know how I ran across it, but that became the Bible to me because I'd only played in Buffalo. It courses like Easter or a country club and had no idea that there was a hundred best golf courses in the world. So that was my guide. That led me to what so many of your listeners deal with. How do you get on one of the top 10 or tap 20 golf courses? First when I was able to get on due to friends, was Marion, which I thought was just

unbelievable. I was sort of in epiphany. I've been playing these mediocre golf courses and most golf courses are mediocre. And here I was at Marion, this cathedral of golf. And that was my number one until I got on Pine Ballet, and then then I understood why Pine Valley was better than Marion. Those two together, even though I was from Chicago at the time, in Philadelphia are the ones who turned me on to golf course architecture. And then it's just a matter of, you know, how many can you get on and play and see and do your own ranking.

So I was sort of a born ranker, which I think most of your listeners are probably the same thing. How do we get on these top 20 golf courses? Yeah. And that's kind of where I wanted to go next with that is in the, all the courses I believe that you've developed are all public access courses. So, you know, as coming up in golf and seeing how maybe it difficult it was to get on some of these courses, did that weigh into any of the ideas you had around the business structure of the resorts you built? Yes, and that was reinforced by my trips to Scotland and Ireland, which followed shortly after I

played fine valley for the first time. I said to my group from Buffalo, New York, we've got to go to Scotland and Ireland and see these natural links courses, which we did. And we realized as we played through, as your listeners have found the same thing, that the best courses, all the courses in Scotland and Ireland, are available to the public. Even Mirfield, you can get on, it's just a better how much you pay. As opposed to America, where the best, 98% of the best courses were private, Augusta, Pine Valley, Marion.

Most people can't get on those courses. So that's caused me to say, aha, if you build a quality golf course in America, just like Scotland or Ireland and Dornick was my model, I bet the vast majority of public offers will try to get to those courses and that's that turned out to be the case. Yeah, that's why I get some people will say to us, you know, if we go cover a course internationally, that's expensive. Yeah, oh, that's too expensive. I want to say like,

guys, if this course existed in the US, you couldn't play it. I mean, that's kind of the way it works with, you know, even some expensive ones, like Trump Turnberry and a Dare Manor and whatnot. They're incredibly expensive, but those kind of places are not accessible in the States. And it makes such a difference in the golf experience to, you know, actually be able to walk on the grounds, feel comfortable there. And that's exactly kind of the feeling you get when you step on the grounds at Bandon. I'm glad you've noticed. Yeah, I've been, I'm reverential about Pebble Beach,

which is the best public course in America and has been since it was founded 100 years ago. And they do charge quite a bit when you think of what the real estate in Carmel is worth. I realize that we're probably getting a discount, not that anyone's gonna say, boy, $550 is cheap, which leads me to tell you, to remind you that our pricing is always half of double beach because they do charge a lot for most people. I've heard you say, you know, refer to Dornick being kind of, you're, I don't know what I say, the model or kind of your, your biggest inspiration.

What specifically about Dornick really kind of resonated with you? It's total simplicity. I feel totally comfortable walking into the clubhouse, pro shop, the town, it's this little dinky town, the way up in the Highlands. There's nothing elitist about the place and it's just got a great feel and that's before you tee it up And one of the great first teas right there overlooked by on the hotel overlooking down on it And then 18 fabulous holes on the Firth of Dornick There are many other candidates for you know, what's the best course and what's the best model? But Dornick has always been mine

That's that the hotel you're referring to. We were staying there when we were there last summer and we had a like a 410 T time and it was 406 and it was getting a little bit cold and we were I had shorts on and I literally could run inside to our room in the hotel and change by the time we got to our T time. It's that close to that to that first T and yeah, you do step on to that, you know, after you step past the second hole there and onto the third hole and onto that open, I don't like it's not the back nine, but it's basically the whole big part of the property. It does feel just like a really special place.

I was just curious, besides Dornick, you know, it sounds like you've played a lot of courses over there. What else really resonated with you or what kind of, not even necessarily the course, what is it about links golf that kind of struck you the hardest? It's natural beauty. You know, all the best links courses from those that are known, to those that are not known, that they're links courses. They were made without bulldozers, very gently and sensitively in the natural dune land. And I would characterize them all as just naturally gorgeous, beautiful places. All right, guys, aune London, I would characterize them all as just naturally gorgeous, beautiful places. All right, guys, a quick break to let you know about OGO's back to summer sale from

now through May 31st, 25% off all alpha convoy travel bags and backpacks at OGO.com. You're going to see these backpacks and travel bags in both Taurus sauce season three and season four. We got absolutely kidded out from the OJO guys and it got incredible amount of pockets in space for all your needs. You've heard me talk about the mutant travel bag, the golf bag that I use that I once was able to get 70 pounds worth of material. That was quite the baggage fee that came with that one, but shows you how much space you can fit in there and it really helps kind of with the packing for a long golf trip. We're able to cram some layers in there.

Even though I just found out you're actually not allowed to put clothes in with a golf travel bag, which Delta tried to stop me from doing that, but I wouldn't have did it anyways. But the OGO Alpha Convoy travel bags, incredibly durable, made from premium materials, including four-wheel spinners and tons of organization, allows you to customize your packing space. Again, their summer sale is now through May 31st, 25% off all AlphaCon void travel bags and backpacks at OGO.com. Again, OGO.com, check it out. Let's get back to Mike Kaiser.

So I kind of wanted to save cool links to the end, but now that we're talking about Dornick, for the listeners that may not be familiar with what cool links is or could be or should be, can you get us up to speed on how you discovered that land there and what the latest is on that project? One mile from Dorneck, my favorite golf course frankly, even ahead of National Golf Links in America. One mile from Dorneck is the town of Embo, and right next to EMBO, there is this gorgeous Lynx golf course site, which the, no one told us about, but the Highland Council, which is interested in economic development, came to my friend and partner in cool links Todd Warnock and said

We would love it if you built a very good golf course very good links course close to It in that close to in the highlands of Scotland so that we could attract overnight people who right now come from in invernous Byboss play dornick and then go back to Inverness. We want them to stay over, and we think that if you build a second quality golf course, you're sort of forgetting about Brewer and Goalspear, both of which are, I think, very good golf courses, but they said, with one more golf course, we think we can attract people there.

So that caused Todd and I to say say what architect do we want to work with Quirk Crenshaw was the answer. Tom Doak was a close second and Bill went trampling around there in search of the best site in the Highlands and he came up with there was close to anything and he came up with this site one mile from Dornick just to contiguous to the town of Embow, also on the Firth of Dornick, and we've been just enamored of what Bill and Ben have come up with in terms of a routing and have waited for three and a half years for it to grind through the bureaucracy of the very same government that encouraged us to find a site. So we are probably three, four, five months away from starting it.

We are enthusiastic about it because it's just this magical routing, right, on the, red on the dunes of M-B-O. We went out there when we were there last summer, and I honestly, I honestly thought that that there had already been worked done to the land because you can just see where natural fairways would sit. And then it's so incredibly perfect for a golf course. Yeah, I'm glad you you were there Chris because that's right. You get, you know, most of their holes are just sitting there waiting to become not even shaped just seated with the fescue. What are some of the difficulties you come, you run into with trying to

develop a links golf course in that part of the difficulties you run into with trying to develop a links golf course in that part of the world during that kind of territory? Very, it's true in California, it's true in Oregon, it's certainly true in the European Union, which is Scotland as a member of the EU. They have these extremely restrictive of the EU, they have these extremely restrictive covenants and statutes about what you can and can't do in these sensitive dunes of, in this case, European Union. And you face first governmental groups, which are bureaucracies that put you through a two to three year schedule of check all the boxes. And then the people who hate development of any kind,

usually based in big cities, and we've got four of them, fronting us from London, who are saying, we don't want any development whatsoever. We don't care if it's a golf course or a bowling alley. We want no golf. And even though golf impacts 70 acres at the most, they are, they fight like crazy for anything in the dunes, there or California or Oregon, I use those three. And it takes

a while just to convince everyone that they're only a small number of people who are against golf and tourism in the highlands of Scotland. As there any development of any other golf courses in Scotland in Doomscapes, have that worked against you in any way? Funny that you mentioned it, Chris. It's like you have inside information. The people over there say you didn't make it any better by having Donald Trump go before you because he has manqualed a lot of people.

I can't tell you just why. You know, he promised to build this huge resort and he's only done 18 holes, which I hear are very good in Aberdeen. But I've had a number of people tell me that if it weren't for Trump, you would have gotten approval by now. So you can sort of pick your theory. I don't have one. I'm just waiting to get approval. Well, I'm glad to hear that it seems to be trending towards approval because it is I understand exactly what you mean and that it would kind of transform Dornick into a destination place instead of a pop-in pop-out place, but

Not too often I'm sure when you get interviewed is do people lead with cool links instead of going straight for band-in But I had so many questions out bad and I wanted him to make sure we talked about something else as well. But this is probably the part where you've told a million times. But what was the first time you heard about the land on which Bantin dudes would eventually be built? And were you dead set like on Oregon? Were you setting out specifically to build a golf course? What was kind of the order of operations there?

The order of operations was I'd given up on the East Coast, my friend Howard McKee, an architect and land-use planner and very good friend said, he's from Portland. He said, why don't you look in the West Coast? We've got all this beautiful Dunlund and Northern California in the state of Oregon. Why don't you look there? Which was present on his part. He was not a golfer, but it turned out that in the area that I finally found because a broker from Gold Beach, Oregon called me out of the blue and said, I don't know anything

about golf, but there is this place that's been for sale for four and a half years. It's twelve hundred acres and myelibotion frontage huge dunes covered in Scottish course and broom. And I don't know anything about golf, but you might want to consider it. And I bought it three weeks later from the three old guys who became friends from Seattle. And that was that sort of a quick rendition of how we found it. Was it available at a very fair price and it was it I mean and what was kind of the process of getting all the gorse cleared out of there? It was a very fair price because they had been they kept lowering the price waiting for someone to come along to buy 1200 acres in the middle of nowhere and I did and I offered them half of what they were asking and they in 30 minutes said we've caucused and we're gonna

We're gonna say yes, you go right ahead Removing Gorse was the was the thing that got us approval the Oregon is not an easy place to develop anything anywhere especially on the coast and Various groups were against golf and what finally won them over, and my friend Howard McKee was the one who convinced them that if they didn't let me build a golf course, the site, the 12-minute acre site, would continue to be overgrown in Scottish course, which was an invasive plant, and takes over everything. And the anti-groups said, you know that's true. We'd rather get rid of

course than stop a golf course. So go ahead and build it off course. And they've said the same thing for each of the five now that are going in demand and are who are at bandin. Yeah, I do want to talk about each of those courses, but I kind of first also want to know and we talked about some of the golf courses that it influenced you, but part of what makes Bannon-Dunes Works is the model. And I imagine that there was some trepidation in some way of this remote location, but was there any other locations that were kind of remote or any kind of projects you saw that said, hey, that worked there, why can't this work here?

That's happened since then, Chris, but at the time, you know, for the Chicago, I was born in Buffalo. Then Chicago, just to conceive of Oregon where it rains, right? Just to, that was the, that was the wildest idea I had come up, I had run into. And the fact that it was such a perfect place to build golf, that's why I did it, but no, until Bannon Doons began attracting people who did tell me about even more remote places like Tasmania, Bannon was about as remote as any of my friends, and I both considered for golf. Well, what is, when you're crunching the numbers and you're saying, we need to have this many rounds played

and to, you know, for this thing to survive, what kind of, what were those numbers look like and what, what did it actually end up playing out? The numbers said, no way this makes sense. No way whatsoever. This is the hair brand idea. And I agreed with that. I didn't bother going to a bank because a bank wouldn't have loan money. This is the hair brand idea and I agreed with that.

I didn't bother going to a bank because a bank wouldn't have loan money. I happened to have enough money to build the golf course and that was a virtue. But no one I talked to thought it was a good idea. And let's say that that was the quote truth until my prayer of breaking even the first year of which is roughly 10,000 rounds, the first year was 24,000 rounds. Wow. And that caused me to rush to Tam Doke

to build a second course and rush to Cours and Crenshaw to build a third course. And three sort of made the destination. The next two have been fun to do. And add a good deal. I can't give you a percentage, but add a lot to the flavor of being there. And you'll soon Chris be able to play five golf courses and you'll want to play five. You already know you like the first four or the fifth could be the best. The sheep ranch. That's what I hear. I'm excited to hear about that one and talk about that one.

But how do you get the first wave of golfers there? I mean, what was kind of the big break? Did you have golf publications talking about at the hype? I mean, this is pretty social media era. But how did people end up out there? Campus sports management has been, they do a number of things well. They manage their resort at Vanond Dunes and do a great job.

And I think they do an even better job, a superlative job in the PR piece. They made sure that all the golf magazines knew about it. I remember golf week did a cover story early on written by Jim Ackinbach from Portland, basically saying, links golf has come to America. And that is, you know, your audience, our readers of, for the time being the golf magazines, golf digest golf magazine, golf week. And that's what made it happen.

You guys, and I was one of them, read about it and said, gee, I can have to get there. And the first year, 24,000 came. We will do 170,000 rounds this year. Five golf courses, putting the part three. And next year it'll go up with the, with the, um, sheep ranch. Mm-hmm. Amazing.

That's really, it really is. I mean, it's, we avid golfers will go anywhere to play True Link's golf and that's what you know what stuck out to me the first link scoff I ever played was at Bannon I'd never been to the UK in Ireland and after I played a band in 2013 and then I got to play just a ton of golf in the UK in Ireland and just absolutely fell in love with Link's golf and I came back home and I thought, you know, I'd like to go back to Bannon, but gosh, it's, that's not the real thing. Like the real stuff is in Ireland and Scotland.

And then I went back to Bannon last year and thought, this is even better than I remember it. That gets not only is it the real thing. I mean, it is the most authentic links experience you could possibly have anywhere. And that's, I think, that's so hard to do and execute properly on a new golf course. It isn't one of the classically designed links golf courses. All right, those architects who did Ben and Dunes great. I mean, they're the ones.

I get more credit than they do, but they should get more credit than I by a good deal. Well, I want to talk about David McClay-Kick, because he was on the podcast last year, and he told the story of how he got the job. But I'd love to hear you tell it and see if there's any discrepancies in the story at all. From my point of view, I couldn't find anyone to do a links course that I, the two that I found were Quirk Crenshaw and they were working for my friend Dick Young's cap at Sand Hills, so I didn't want to be the second course to

Dick. He was going to beat me time wise. And Tom Doke was actually Tom Doke was probably my first choice, barely nudging Quirkrenshaw. But Tom at the time was terrible Tom Doke, who the industry couldn't stand. He was this idiot Sevant type. And even though I liked him and I knew that he, he of all the people I knew about could do, Link's golf, he was so unpopular in the industry that I felt that I couldn't lead with him for fear of it being, oh, this is Tam Dokes, you know, that it would be attacked. So that left me with nobody. You don't hire a brand name architect. Like my friend, Tom Fasio, is a brilliant architect in my opinion, but he would have done a Tom Fasio course, not a links course.

He would protest and say that he could do a links course, but I didn't quite believe that. And therefore, I didn't know who to turn to. And just about that time, Glen Eagles Golf Development has popped up in Scotland to build golf courses, to build links courses, and golf courses around the world. And I was the first prospect that they came to see. And they dangled David Kiddage, 26 to me as someone who grew up in links golf, and with his dad,

who was the master superintendent for Glenn Eagles The two of them together. I was told by their sales guy my friend Ian Ferrier the two together will give you a links course So because I had no one I had no one else I hired David and Jimmy and And knew that if they were Bad I would fire them and they were good. Really good. Really, really, really good. Yeah. What was it that they said in the kind of interview process or what, anything they really stuck out to you and saying, this is the vision that I have for this place? They grew up, David grew up at Mechrahannish, June at Mechrahannish, where Jimmy his dad had a house.

mechrahannish where Jimmy is dead at a house. So their statement was basically, we know dunes. We're Scottish, we live in breed dunes, and if you want any better example, come visit us in mechrahannish, which I did, and see that you grew up in the East or our country club. We grew up, David grew up at mechrahannish, and and frankly my visit to Macrihanish convinced me that they could do something that felt like Macrihanish. Is there any truth to the statement or the point that David said that at one point the vision was potentially for the clubhouse to be where the 16th hole is currently and had he had suggested moving the clubhouse inland to use that that real estate for the best golf holes Is there any any true to that that statement?

That is totally true. I had an expert. I will not name him But he was an expert in golf and he said this is where the clubhouse should go And it was right for the 16th green and ended up being and David with support from Howard McKee, who felt equally strongly, said, that is a ridiculous waste of good golf space. You want to build a Lynx course that actually does well. That's where your golf course should be.

And you'll move the clubhouse back as far as it takes to be out of the way of the golf course. To which Howard added, and this Trump even, what David said, Howard said, where are the beer trucks going to go? Where's the parking lot going to go? And that stopped my expert guy right there. He did not have an answer that was even coached. So in about 15 minutes, David and Howard McKee moved the clubhouse back to where you know

it is. What, how involved are you in the actual design process of golf holes? Because David wrote an article recently, I believe it's in the golfers journal about designing the 16th hole at band and in his thought process, which also included consideration on whether or not you would approve the hole. So how involved are you, I I guess in the whole process? I trust the architects I use, but you know we all make mistakes and we all can be improved. So I they know that I approve the routing the single most the single biggest thing to a golf course is the routing where the holes go. And the second

biggest thing is what the greens look like, what the order they're shaped. So they all know that I don't have to bless every single bunker that they put in. And I don't need to bless the six to eight teas we put in any golf course, but I do need to approve the routing and approve the greens. And they've been great about that. What lessons would you say you learned maybe from the Doons Club, the club that you opened before abandoned? If you want to build a golf course, sand is the material you want to build it on. If you end most of the sand in the, I can't say that, a lot of the sand in the world is found on oceanfront. So if you can find an Oceanfront site, which we'll have sand and build it there.

You know, one of the best sand dunes in America is... Is it Wisconsin? That's a good one, but that's pretty flat. Now the very best in America is in order, know the the very best in America is in order Colorado. Colorado National Park at the Sandu National Park in Colorado is just looking at photos of this huge National Park which is all sand. Make would make a great golf course. I want to talk a bit about your philosophy on accommodations and hospitality. And first I'd like to hear you describe your approach and I'll give you my experience as a visitor to the resorts. So I want to do this is where Dornick is another model. I want the Dornick hotel. It's not

fancy by any means. I wish the soundproofing between walls was better and as good as Bannon Doomsd, but that was sort of my model. And beyond that, in general, the Scottish and Irish experiences with lodging is pretty simple. It's not set up to be luxurious in this that way, not why most people play golf. It accommodates you. Comfortable. Showers that work. Not most people play golf. It's just, it accommodates you, comfortable showers at work, not much more than that. So my approach is not five star or even four star,

but genuine three star, three star experience. That's pretty much how I describe it. I always say the nicer the room, the more guilty I feel about not spending any time in it, because you want to spend your time there out on the golf course. You're there to catch a little bit of sleep and then get right back at it.

And the one thing that's always kind of stuck out to me and I was curious to hear how you achieve this is, the service with the staff is, it's maybe the best service because they serve you great, but they're not kissing your ass. And that is a very hard balance to reach. It's very, some higher-end resorts will really, you know, do everything for you.

But at Bannon, it seems like everyone has the philosophy of, hey, I want you to have a great time and I want you to go tell your friends how great of a time this is and I want you to come back forever. How do you instill that within an entire staff? It is not by training. My answer is sort of simplistic, but I think it's true. The people of rural America, and certainly rural Oregon, which being in qualifies, are just authentically nice.

And what you're commenting on is how un-sitified they are. They're country people, and just delighted you're there visiting. I know that's not simple, but I'm convinced that's true. And you touched on, you touched on this a couple of times and the two things I want to kind of bring together here and the success of the band and dunes rushed you to start going on the second course, but you said it was kind of, Tom Doke was a bit untouchable at the moment for the opening course. A couple years later when Pacific Dunes opened, why was he the first guy that you called?

Because I thought going in, I thought he was the number one choice, except for his unpopularity. So when David did his great thing, Tom was next on the list. Bill and Penn were next as I explained, but they had already done sand hills. So I went with Tom and that causes me to say that I think one of the successes, one of the reasons for success at Bannon Dunes

is the architects were different for each course, which is, as you know, unusual in multi-course settings. Yeah, and I see this with Bannon and I see it with Streamsong now with the opening of their black courses. I think kind of this formula of you have two successful golf courses. I have the opinion that Bannon Doons and Pacific Doons are pretty similar golf courses. The red and the blue at Streamsong, pretty similar golf courses black is starkly different than the other two and band and trails is also starkly different than to band and in pacific so was that a was that a conscious thing to say all right this third course has to be a

very different experience than the two we already have actually know we i mean that was the land we had left at the time. That's what we had and You should you probably know that Bill and Ben heard from all their friends and advisors don't take the third course job You're being you're getting at a less good site and it was it was the what I offered them initially was in the woods So it would have been 18 holes in the forest. Beautiful forest, but we'd seen forest, of course it before, and Bill and Ben took it in part because they thought they could convince Howard McKee and me that they shouldn't be in the forest,

they should be out in the meadow and the dunes, which they did. They convinced Howard and me to change the footprint of what became Ben band trails from all woods to 10 holes in the meadows and the dunes of the other side of that big dune there. Well, I remember thinking, you know, hearing about trails and I just, it doesn't obviously photograph the way band and dunes does and Pacific dunes does and it just, I wasn't thrilled to go play it or super excited and I went out and played it and being amongst those pines and that quiet feeling

that's back there. Once we emerged back out of them and back towards the ocean, I thought, wow, once I didn't think about the ocean the entire time and two, I'm kind of upset to be leaving this this serene setting back in these trees. It's all it's a special different kind of brilliance that comes with it yeah the truth is you probably know this grist that uh... if you pulled a hundred people at bannard oons which your favorite course it's roughly equal each each course is an equal following

specific to ins bannard oons are both probably twenty eight percent and trails and all mictonald are twenty two percent but it's no different than that and that's the it's what the 22%, but it's no different than that. And that's what the owner of a resort or a multi-course place prays for that they're all about equal. And I think the sheep ranch, the fifth course, is going to be the favorite of 20% of the people. Well, I was going to say this question for last about how everyone loves the debate,

their favorite courses at Bannon. But I'll ask you this in a different way, and that you get your last round of your golf that you're ever going to play is tomorrow. It's going to be at one of the courses at Bannon, which one do you choose to play your last round of golf? It's a tough one, because I would try not to answer the question, but I know you're going to insist that I answer it to be politically incorrect with the three that I don't pick, but it would be Old McDonald.

Hmm. Why is that? To me, it's an old course at the A.C. Andrews experience. It's the closest thing to the old course that I've seen other than the old course. And what was the mindset, I guess, the philosophy behind, you know, obviously the course is named after, is it a tribute to CB McDonald? Was this kind of a dream that you had of, all right, these other courses are wide. Now we're going to give you extra, extra wide.

No, it actually wasn't that. That was Tom Doak. I called Tom as the encyclopedic memory guy and said, Tom know, Tom, the, the bastard, second mess golf course in the world in 1920 was the Lido course in Long Island, which disappeared. What, what do you think if we brought back the Lido course on my site in Bannon? And he thought a lot about it and wanted to say, what a great idea. But Tom is very good this way. And he said, you know, I understand why you want to do it,

but I don't think the site fits Lido, which he knew very well, the routing of Lido. What you could do, Mike, is to do an homage to see me McDonald, who you like the best of any architect who's ever practiced. And just sort of, they do McDonald-like holes that fit that site. And I thought that was a brilliant comeback on his part and hired him. And Jim Rabina to do Old McDonald as if it were Old McDonald, not Old McLean, as if it were a CB

McDonald designing it. And I think they did a pretty good job. They are the reason it's so wide. They are the reason that the Greens are so big because if you lose national golf links as the model, both of them, not both of them, national has wide fairways and big Greens. That's the course that I think is probably the most important for people to know something about before they go play and kind of really understand. That's the course that I think is probably the most important for people to know something about before they go play and really understand. That's kind of something that the caddies, the caddy we had squid, was our guy he explained it to us really well. It kind of talked us through it, which we kind of had an idea, but I have a feeling that

a lot of people that are resort guests wouldn't necessarily know why it's called ol' McDonald or what it is an actual tribute to. But you've hinted at this couple times, and we finally get to talk about it now, but the sheep ranch, I got to be honest, up until the last couple months, I've always been really confused as to what the sheep ranch is. And I know there's been some really good pieces published in recent months about what's going on there. And we've talked some with Keith Reb, who's done some work up there.

But for those that aren't familiar with what the sheep ranch is and what it will be, could you get us up to speed? It's been available to public play for almost 15 years now. And most people don't go there because they don't know about it and it's not connected to the resort. It's the only piece of land that I own 50-50 with anybody. My old greeting card partner and pal, Phil Friedman, helped me buy it back when I was stretched money-wise. He adopted it as his site and hired Tom Doak and Jim Marbina

to build 13 green sites on what used to be a gorse field. He removed the gorse., he removed the gorse. And rather than let the gorse grow back, he said, well, why don't we have as much golf as Tom and Jim can fit on there. He gave them a very small budget and they built 13 greens. And the idea is much like the old course at St. Andrews in its early going. There was no specific routing people would make it up as they went. And that's what it was. And now what will it be here in the coming months or coming years?

Now it will be a bill core ban crunch, amazing golf course just in terms of the visuals. They were able to locate 50 and they were able to locate 9 greens right on the ocean bluff. So if you think of a band and dunes number 16, they have 9 greens that look pretty much just like 16 of band and dunes. In the inland holes are only a long par 4 away from the ocean. So it's basically this. Every hole is on the ocean. It's having been there twice in the last month. It's quite astonishing. And when it grows in green, it will be something like you've never seen before, Chris. Awesome. I'm excited to see it. I'm a couple more banning questions and I want to touch

on a couple others than I got to let you go or take an up a lot of time with with banning, but there's so much to talk about. But do you have a favorite hole in the property? 16 at Bannon doons. I thought that might be the answer and are we allowed are we allowed to discuss the secret tea on the 17th hole at Bannon doons? Yes, we can We thought the 17 was a great par four is designed, come off the 16th green, my favorite. T it up, play 17 is a par 4. But if there's no one in back of you, we also found a great par 3 T site, which is about 180 yards from the green.

It's right on cut creek that creek that runs right beside it. And if you've got no one in back of you, and anyone is welcome to find that tea, the caddies know where it is, and play basically two holes in one. Yeah, we, our caddies took us up there to play that one when we were back there. So it was pretty cool. I got a slide. I got, I'm obligated to say we're not even gonna, we're gonna skip past Bannon preserve and the punch ball. That's the amount of things that Bannon do and has to offer. But I want to make sure I ask about Barn Bougaldoons

and how you got involved in that project. You know, you're going from building a golf course on the West Coast of Oregon to building it even more remote location in Bridgeport, Tasmania. How did you get involved in that process and what was that project like? I was standing on the to be 10th green 10th T sorry 10th T of Pacific dunes with Tam Doke and I said Tam it's a part three that you you look down on the on the green. It's a great view of the Pacific Ocean and golf

in front of you. And I said, Tom, there can't be a better site for golf in the world than this. That hasn't been done, and here we are doing it. So I sort of boastful and Tom said, well, like there is actually a site that I think is as good and it's down in Burt, Bridgeport, Tasmania, where I'm talking with someone who knows nothing about golf and trying to convince him to build a golf course, you should see

it. It just turned out that I was looking for something to do in a Christmas vacation when my son, Michael, was at Santa Clara University. So instead of his coming home and drinking beer every night for 30 days, I took him to what became to be Barn Bougaldoons in Tasmania to look at, fallen love with this great golf course site that Tim Doughke was going to design. And took on the job with Tom to convince Richard Soutler, who is now my good friend, to build a golf course.

He knew nothing about course. He knew nothing about golf. He knew hotels, sheep, cattle, and potatoes. He knew nothing about golf. And Tom and I together convinced him that he wanted to put his entire net worth into what became Barn Bougal Dunes. And the thing that convinced Richard is a savvy business guy is visiting ban and dunes and he basically concluded, if this works here, my site in Bredport is at least as good, I'll do it. We sort of dared him to do it and he did. And the result is Barn Bougal dunes.

And it's companion golf course lost farm by Bill Courb. And that's what amazed me about the, about Barn Boogle and Lost Farm is one, how little Richard did know about golf and how at the same time, you know, I believe it was Bill Corp that had laid out 20 holes at Lost Farm and he said, pick the best 18 and he went and researched and said, hey, St. Andrews used to have 22 holes.

Billed all 20, let's make a 20 hole golf course and how outside the box he was willing to go because he wasn't anywhere close to the box with his golf knowledge. That's right, but Richard is a great entrepreneur and a quick study and I'd forgotten that, but that was a great work on Richard's watch and all four of his kids are involved in the golf course now. He went from knowing nothing about golf to all four kids his kids are involved in the golf course now. He went from knowing nothing about golf to all four kids are in the business. That was one of the more memorable golf experiences I think we've ever had was taking a little tiny plane and landing on a little dirt runway next to a barn vugal and going out and being on the first tee 30 minutes later was was quite a thrill. Yeah, that's done that too.

Getting through a couple more here and then I got let you go, but Cabot as well. That's a project you've been involved in and how did you get involved in that one and again, another remote location up in Canada. Ben Cowan-Durr is the reason I got involved. He was persistent as I'll get out. Wouldn't let me get away without visiting. So he was the reason

He he found it and that's a long story, but he was he was sold He's he's always wanted to build a golf course and lastly sand Valley Sand Valley was Josh Loznik from Kemper Sports Management when I heard about sand Valley I said it's there's no ocean. I can't possibly be interested in that But you seem like a nice guy Craig Haltum I heard about San Valle. I said, there's no ocean. I can't possibly be interested in that. But you seem like a nice guy. Craig Haltum. I'll send Josh up there and he'll tell me why I shouldn't do it.

And you end up doing it. And I end up doing it. All right, Mike, I got to let you go there. Thank you so much for the time. And for giving us some amazing insights. And for everything you've done for the game of golf, it's been some of my favorite golf experiences I've ever had so thank you for coming on and hope to do it again sometime. Thanks Chris very much you're good questions see you soon, bye.

Yeah, that's better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most.