No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 255: Brad Faxon

Episode Date: October 21, 2019

Brad Faxon joins to talk about working with Rory McIlroy on his putting, his playing career, what makes a great putter, and a hell of a lot more discussion on putting. We also discuss his love of golf course architecture, the Ryder Cup, broadcasting, and so much more. We barely scratched the surface with this one, and we look forward to having him back in the future.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Alright guys, I am pumped about this podcast. I'm not going to lie. I was hoping to get two parts out of Brad Fax and went down to Palm Beach, recorded with him this past week.

You got a settle for an hour and a half of just tremendous golf talk and the assumption that he's going gonna come back on because I got about five pages of notes I got through less than two of them I think. I mean, we left, I didn't even talk about his hair. We didn't even get to that. There's a ton in this interview. It's probably gonna be our last of the week.

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I feel like shit. I don't sound like that. First of all. Yeah. But no, it's great. I take it after workouts, you know, it's a good post surfing no, it's great. I take it after workouts. It's a good post surfing kind of thing to do. I take it before I go to bed.

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He was like, hey, what's that pot that you take every day? I was like, well, actually, that there's 0% THC in this. There's no THC. It's not that kind of a thing. It is a hemp extract. Just get involved. Get involved. Yeah. Cool. All right, without any further delay, here's our podcast episode with Brad Faxon. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast in the Casa de Faxon. I got to say Brad, today was one of the coolest,

coolest things I've ever got to do. Watching you and Rory do a little putting practice, you said that you don't share a lot of that info without side people. I don't. And I would leave it up to whoever the individual is that I'm with. And look, I feel like I'm like the luckiest guy in the world to have a guy like Rory McElroy,

call and lightning strikes immediately that same week we got together and talked about putting but that was Bay Hill last year. At Bay Hill last year right, we won by four shots and you know made the putt in the last toll that meaningless putt that everybody makes when they don't need to make it, it gives it even more drama. But it's been fantastic to be able to spend time with Roy. And one of the things that I always believed that, it's not up to me to share information on Twitter,

Instagram, and post it because you're trying to help the individual, right? If he decides to talk about it or put it out there, that's his or her choice. And I had a lot of instructors, you know, as a player. That was told to ask you about that. Yeah, I know we'll get there at some point because it's inevitable. But Jim McLean made a great point to me.

McLean was one of the top teachers in the 1990s, Tatum Kite and Peter Jacobson and many others. But he said to me, listen, if you start sharing what you're doing with friends or with maybe a stranger and then they don't like what you're doing and then they start questioning what you're doing, it might raise doubt. And maybe it will, maybe it won't. And look, that was 25, 30 years ago when there wasn't social media. And now there's ways to make social media an opportunity.

But I also get a kick out of some of the guys that go back and answer every reply from every. Right. When you say raises doubt, you mean like raises doubt about them internally or raised doubt about your instruction? About, yeah, maybe what you are doing. Like if you have a lesson from, you know, if I had a lesson from Jim McLean, let's say back then, and he was telling me, you know, the key to what you're trying to do me was, and I'm making something up here, is to move into my right side immediately off my swing.

Say I was having dinner with a guy that was more of a stay centered, stack-and-tilt sort of guy, and he would go, well, why are you doing that? Most of the good players. And all of a sudden, you know, you might have felt great about a thought or a feel that you had, and now you have some guy questioning it. And I, you know, the great saying that, I't know if it came from Harvey Peenick was go to dinner with good putters. I like that.

So if you're constantly talking about something so that you might get more feedback, I think that feedback can blow up in your face. Well, there's a lot I want to ask you about as to what made you a great putter. But before we do any of that, I want to, I want to kind of understand, you've spent a career making putts and learning how to be a good putter. How easy is that to translate to being an instructor, right? Because your fields are your fields. How do you, you know, translate that to someone else? I think that's one of the best questions I've been asked. Because people inevitably ask

me or tell me you're just lucky or born a good putter, right, which ticks me off. Because I spent a lot of time practicing. I spent a lot of time helping people read greens when I was a kid as a caddy. And I've been, I'm learning a lot as how to, to be a better instructor. And I think it's, there's no way you can correlate how good you are at a skill and how you are as a instructor. If you, you might look at the best players in the world or if you said Jack and Tiger, that doesn't mean because they are great players that they're

great instructors. That they'll have the ability to say, this is what I felt when I played my best golf, but how do you? Communicate that to somebody that that's struggling in a certain part of the game. So I get angry when I hear somebody comment like whose brand will shamble you think he is? What does he think he's an expert? You know when they don't like something that he says you know He only won one tournament. I'm going well. What does that have to do with whether he's an expert or not? He's studied this game Maybe more than anybody alive right now, and that going to piss people off listening to me say that. And I'm a big brand new fan because he's not afraid to go out on a limb to say something.

Look, David Ledbetter was the best instructor in the world. He never won a tournament. Right. The charm in one one tournament, maybe a rained out tournament. Sean Foley never won a tournament. So why does that mean you'd have to win to be great at being an instructor? So I think I mentioned to you on the putting green today when we were at the Bears Club of the Roy that, look, I'm still learning on a lot of the technical part of what people do when they hit a putt. I mean, I know what I did. I know what it feels like to hit a good putt or feels like to have a nice routine. And I certainly have my opinions. But if some guy does something

different than me, but makes a lot of putt, so I'm not going to change him. So, yeah, I think you can relate it. And I think a guy like Rory McAroy, who's as talented as a player that's ever played the game, he can pick up on things really quickly and you can tell really quickly if he doesn't like something. And I think you saw it today when we were watching him hit these putts on the Bears' Green's there, which were not even close to what they normally are like. You could see the bounce on here early in the, you know, we're starting golf season down here, really in Florida. The amount of putts he just made was incredible wasn't it? Right.

That was an intense putting session. That was barely even a two-knop if he asked me. No, but do you think, and here's- Because of how diled in he was. He was, he was ready. But wouldn't you think that when he walked away from what had we spent a half an hour, 45 minutes? Something like that.

He feels better about himself when he left there. That's what I would get the feeling. And that was not a detailed session. I've been a lot more. We've had hours where we spent their work on one certain part of mechanics. I mean, he made a bunch of putts there from 20 feet. He put it right to left or left to right. He hit some in at different speeds.

Then we worked on the four footers, the three footers, that he's going to have to make if he's going to finish off a tough two-pot or make it after he's stuffed it in there close. And you know, you challenge him a little bit. You've got to make four of these in a row. And you know, he didn't do it the first time and it gets some work in it. But it's doing stuff that's gonna prepare him to play What was it? I mean, what was his have you seen his mindset on putting evolved since the time you've been been working with him?

so When I had met him he had spent the last couple years with Phil Kenney There's one of the greatest putting instructors in the world and Kenyon Has taught Tommy Fleetwood and I mean he goes through the list of guys, Justin Rose, Greg, Gary Woodland, who won the US Open this year. He's got a lot more experience than I do. And I think how you teach someone, how you communicate to some player depends really on the player

and how much information they want, need, and can handle at once. And I really have never asked, Rory, what did you work on specifically with Phil? But I'm sure the stuff that he had worked on kind of got into his stroke at some point. But he's gotten much more comfortable right now that it seems to be right now a little bit more reminders,

a little bit more games, a little bit more games for him. And I mean, for the best players in the world, can you continually do the same seemingly boring things over and over and over again and add some excitement to it? Yeah. Well, a couple of things that I took out of today. One is something he said about his Michael Bannon was there as well and working on their full swing, but he doesn't have you out there or Michael out there during tournament weeks. He's like, once I get to tournament week, I have my swing and I have got to kind of do it from there.

And the second thing was kind of, well, something you said there near the end, which was, you know, he leaped a putt. I was a 15 foot or 20 footer and he leaped it on the low end. And you said something about the attitude you have towards putting that day decides you're takeaway from that either. Hey, I had a great putt. It didn't go in or I can't believe I can't buy a bucket there. Right. And I think every player,

no matter what their handicap or level is, when you hit a 15 foot putt and it's going right at it and then at the last minute turns, hits the edge and spins out. Oh, you know, you can grip your teeth, you can, you know, cuss, or you can smile and you can go, that was a great putt. And I call that the acceptance part of that. And a lot of the stuff I've learned is from Bob Rhotel, a sports psychologist who worked with so many great players over his career. But if you constantly have a putt that's close

and they're not going in and you get more angry and more upset, boy, you're going to be in for a long career because if you think about the percentage of those putts you're going to make over your lifetime, you're not like a free throw shooter. Right. I mean, you have to act like one. Yeah, and it's amazing how great of a putt you can hit from eight feet and have it not go in.

Exactly. You can say, it's amazing how great of a putt you can hit from eight feet and have it not go in. Exactly. You can say it's an issue to free throw. And if you want to try and explain these things all the time and have an answer that's supposed to be logically your swimming upstream, aren't you? You're going to lose that battle. And I think a lot of people now, and technology is probably one of the things that's heard a lot of players in a way they wouldn't suspect that you can measure everything now. Every single thing that you do, you can measure. And sometimes you just can't explain why an eight footer

didn't go in and you know you might say well the face was too open, the closure rate was too quick, you know, you had too much left wrist flexion. You can use all the big words, but sometimes it's just golf. And maybe that's just an answer that people don't want to hear at times, but if you can be more patient with that, I think you're going to like the game a little bit more. And one of the things, Michael Bannon, who's Rory's only instructor, really told me early on when I got the phone call from Rory and you need to ask me about that. That's a great story. Doing my job for this.

Yes, you work in media. This is too easy. No, it's awkward sometimes, but I called him because I said, Michael, you've been with Rory your whole life. I know what you've seen the last few years of the Greens, but how do you work? Well, what's the best way to communicate to him? And he told me, you know, with Rory, they'd like to spend the time together like they just have these last few days here down the floor. And then he gets ready to go play in the skins game in a couple more Asian events or European tour events or World Off Championships. He's, he said,

Michael said, Rory works best if we give, have a couple thoughts to play with on the range. And I'll let Rory decide which one he's going to like on the course. And instead of being on the driving range, late Wednesday night before a tournament, trying to figure out what's right, you know, Rory's got that. He's figured it out. And he, you know, when he goes to play as practice runs, he might have one or two fields. But by the time he lets it fly, that thing's pretty simplified. Yeah, if he sets his like his variance levels, right? And he's like, as long as I'm within this variance level,

some things are going to work out, some things aren't, but like as long as things are within these two lines, I can play golf. And it's, we've done it with the putting pretty well. I mean, he's done it more than anything. I mean, the instructor gets way too much credit and way too much blame when really the instructor can, I don't know, is in Sean O'Flairity, who's one of the greatest men in this game too. Roy's agent, he said, look, it's already proven that the instructor doesn't really help the player that much to get that much better. He can only get him to his potential where he can really get a lot hurt him a lot, harm him a lot. Yeah. You're trying to you're trying to ignite something within them, right? It's all in there. It's trying to activate

it pretty much. And you heard Rory explain a little bit like even that simple chip shot and I started with a video of that chip shot that he saw it hit. There's so much feel in there and visualization that what he sees will never know the way he sees it He can explain it to us But when you're great at something it's hard to use Words in the English language that you can the putt could putty hit today He's like I he's explained to us. He says look if you told me to hit a 30 foot putt I couldn't do it but look at that that pin right there and he pointed to a hole a cut

Maybe it was 45 feet away. Yeah, it's 45 feet. He's like, I can hit it right to this watch. Boom. Hits the putt and it could not have been any more. Perfect. It could not have been more pin. And again, he hadn't hit a 45 or 50 footer. He'd only hit 12 footers to a different hole. That was an uphill putt with a, probably a stint meter reading of less than 10 and up that hill. It was probably a six on that Stimped me and he got it in one shot. That's where when a player's on like he's in that showoff mode Watch this watch this. He's like watch this and I was I was really really like hesitant to talk about anything about Golf feels with Rory just because that could

I don't even want to say advice, but it can come off as advice. But one thing I said about my game this year, I was like, yeah, you know, this year I started hitting putts to make them instead of trying to hit good putts. And he immediately jumped in. He's like, I think the exact same way. I was trying too hard to hit good putts instead of trusting myself as an athlete to make putts. Is that the way you thought as a putter? Or still think, I guess I should say, you still got the putting game?

I can still putt pretty well, and it's interesting as I got better as a putter, I didn't really practice more, which everybody would think is crazy, nobody wants to hear that, but I was so confident with it that I knew it was always going to be pretty good. And if I was in the right state of mind, I rarely hit bad putts. Almost every putt looked like it had a chance to go in. And people have said that. It looks like every putt you have as a chance to go in. And even now, I love standing over a putt.

I mean, really, I wasn't born with that. You know, I had to learn that and learn that the hard way a lot of times. And through trial error. And look, I've missed a lot of important puts in my life. I really think how you respond to that is hugely important. This is maybe the most broad question, but you mentioned you weren't always great putter. You worked at it.

But where do you feel like you got the advantage over? Because I don't think anyone off the street can go out and practice putting for 10,000 hours and necessarily be a great putter. There's more that goes into it than just hitting a ton of putts. Right. You know I've read that book and if 10,000 hours was the answer that everybody that put in 10,000 hours would be great at it and they aren't. Are they? It's it would help to get better in in home to skill but there's way more and other things that go into it.

So I was lucky. I grew up in Rhode Island with a father that was a golfer. I played other sports like a lot of kids did. And I had a short season, so I never felt like golf was, you know, a full-time endeavor back then. I got to do a lot of different things with the, I think the skills get set you learn from other sports is really helpful in golf, especially, especially in golf. And then, so I was a caddy in Rhode Island Country Club was an old on our off course with beautiful greens sloped back to front. And a lot of those Saturday and Sunday mornings that was due on the greens when we went out early, and I would help the players, the members read their greens. And I'd always see the, you know, the path that the ball took. And it always blew me away how much a ball would move, especially as it slowed down. And then later on when I started to play competitively, I would always see that, you know, the action

track we used to see, you know, if it's now become a tracer. So when I started reading greens and having caddies helped me on the tour, like nobody had a read enough break. And that was later confirmed in a lot of studies by Dave Pell's. And having that image is always and still is embedded in my mind when I go on any green. I feel like when maybe this is obvious, but allowing more break, whenever I feel very confident that I have the ball aimed high enough, I hit such a better speed. So, Pell's was one of the first instructors

really to focus on short-came. He was an engineer, he called himself a scientist, I don't know if studying golf makes you a scientist or not, but he definitely said that from all the studies that he did of amateur golfers is most of them under-read, under-amed, and then definitely compensated throughout their stroke. And then we started to hear stuff like,

and he would have been one of the first guys to say it, that the best pot would have a speed that would go 17 inches by the hole and I'm like, okay, I might buy that you know You hit a putt from above the hole and it's the ball is always moving slower than when you hit from below the hole And I'm like god every time I hit a putt 17 inches past the whole day like misses and he would go Well, you know what I mean? I go yeah, but I was kind of trying to bust your chops a little.

And we do, and I like practicing a lot of puts, hitting at different speeds. You know, you just said it. The speed you hit when you try and play more break is better for you. I like players to try and hit the most break they can hit. And then see, what's the limit on how hard you can hit a putt? And if you can't feel that in practice, I don on how hard you can hit a putt. And if you, if

you can't feel that in practice, I don't know how you can take it to the, to the course and competition. And boy, I would, I would argue with the, these instructors that are saying there's, you know, one speed's the best where I said, you look, I've played a lot of golf, I've watched a lot of players putt where I've seen them try and die putts in the hole they make and I've seen them try and ramputs in the hole and they make them so don't tell me there's only one speed that works Right what well before we get too far here and I've lost track you I'm supposed to ask you Your first time meeting or with Roy getting call how did that had to the village just no? It's a really funny story because you know

I told you a little bit this when we're on the putting green today with him and what he called me he got my cell phone maybe from his dad or from a member of seminal and said hey and I was playing a senior tour event out in Newport Beach the Tashiba classic at Newport Beach Country Club which was one of the great events and I was going to come home on Monday morning because I don't like flying red ice and I had booked a flight on JetBlue's Mint class. I don't know if you've flown on that, but it's made me the best domestic first class and I had booked it early enough in advance

because I know they gobbled those up pretty quickly. And I got it for a great fair. I mean, for a cross-country overnight, but a lay downseat, great food, and a TV screen that's like a big iPad. It was 700 bucks. I'm like, you don't get that anymore. So I had a book that I was excited about,

and I had a friend I think that he and I were gonna go to dinner that night, actually I could humble brag, it was Tom Werner, the owner of the Red Sox, who's become a friend lives on the fifth green at Riviera. So I was gonna go have dinner with him, then fly out the next day, the owner of the Red Sox, who's become a friend, lives on the fifth green at Riviera. So I was going to go have dinner with him and then fly out the next day and couldn't have been more happy.

So I get a text on Saturday while I wasn't in the course. I didn't see it until I was done and it was from a number I didn't have and it was Macaroi. And he said, Hey, I'm going to be at Old Palm on Monday playing in Ernie Elz's Autism event. Can you meet me at the Bears Club at 4 o'clock on Monday playing in Ernie Elz's autism event, can you meet me at the Bears Club at four o'clock on Monday? And first of all, to get a text from Murray Mac, or I still get excited, I've known for a year and a half now. And I said, oh, four o'clock on Monday.

So I started trying to do the math. They said, leave an A.D. and Leigh and Fort Lauderdale for it's an hour drive. Lucky to, I said, no. So I didn't want to say no, and I'm like, because he was going to play Bay Hill that week. And I said, oh, the only way I can do that is to take a red eye.

So I didn't respond. I said, you know what? Maybe I did respond. I said, yeah, I'll be there. And then I said, oh. So I went back and started looking at all the different flights. And there was an American flight nonstop from LAX to Miami. And I said, red eye, I can go coach and save a little money or I can go first class and

spend a lot more money. But I wanted to sleep, I wanted to be ready. So I changed the ticket from Jeb Blue to American and it was 1900 bucks. Oh no. First class. And I'm like, God. So I got into Miami like five in the morning, the red eyes are tough. Because it's such a short flight downwind in the night. And then

finally Miami is terrible and driving up the turnpike at Russia. Or so I got home, you know, plenty of time, nine o'clock. I probably took a nap. And then then I get to meet him at the Bears Club. And when I called my wife, this is the funny part, Sunday, the teller, hey, Rory called. He wants me to come spend some time with him. And I said, I'm gonna come home Sunday night now, not Monday. She goes, I can see where this is going.

Yeah, that's why I said, good, you must be mad. So she goes, was that, you mean you're coming home on the red eye? I said, yeah, she goes, well, you didn't want to come home on the red eye. I said, yeah, but Rory McRory caused. She goes, what do you like, Rory McRory? Then more than you like me and I go, well, at this moment, yes. I have. Deepen met him yet.

So I've gotten a lot of grief from that. And I don't know if I've ever told Rory that face to face, but I hope he listens to your podcast. I think he still toads in from time to time. So was that a normal, like, when you listen to your podcast. I think he still tunes in from time to time. So was that a normal like when you were in the height of your competitive days, the guys come to you on the putting green for tips? Is that a normal thing?

It started to happen later in my career. And you know, I was always a guy that liked to hang around with players and their teachers and just talk about swing stuff and listen, whether it was Davis, Lover, Jeff, Slum, and Peter Jacobson. You know, if one of those guys were hitting balls, I just like to listen. I was curious, still in. And I thought I maybe studied enough, listened to enough people where I could help somebody if they were struggling. And you know, like I said, my time with the Rotella was, the value, it's become very valuable

and helping instruct because no part of the game is more mental, right? Than plotting and what a conduit of your brain when you start going off a little bit. So yeah, I mean, definitely. And it's a great feeling to be able to help somebody. And when they're chasing excellence and you help them, it's pretty impressive.

Because you were getting, I got just from observing, you were getting excited out there. I could see how much you like enjoyed just doing a quick lesson this afternoon. Well, listen, I mean, I'm still pretty new to this, but I also know that I better be confident with them out there. I can't just sound like,

Oh yeah, looks good. Yeah. You know, just kind of, oh yeah, looks good. Yeah, you know, just kind of, you know, I, we always busted Rick Smith's balls, you know, he was a great instructor taught, um, Phil for a while and before that Rocco and, and Lee Janssen and Billy Andrade and he would always, you know, be out there and a guy would hit a bad shot and then he did another one and uh, he goes, oh, that's better. And let me, well, yeah, of course, it was better. He had a second ball. Would that feel better?

Yeah, it looked better. So I don't want to be that. And you've got to, you know, there's, there's a real psychology to the instruction game. It's, it's so individually based. And it seems like no lesson is ever the same. But a lot of what, you know, maybe the first thing you heard me say is what's your schedule? What are you going to do?

To me, I'm trying to figure out how much technical stuff you need to talk about versus how much play stuff. And I know Rory much better than most of the guys that I'm spending time with. If there were a month off and we really had time to dive in and work on something that we thought was important, there's times to do that when there's times not to do it. Yeah, you're not going to go change a bunch of stuff before you leave for Japan tomorrow. No, because I can't do much to think about. He's going to watch a rugby game. We talked about that. He's a big sports fanatic. He watches UFC. He watches soccer or football

for them, which, and I think that's a great distraction for these guys, but he, I think he's really excited about these, the skins game in Japan until he's worked up. He's getting to play with Tiger Woods on a, probably a global stage. Yeah. That is awesome. It's awesome. What is it? So, all right, let's take a run of the mill professional when it comes to putting, and I mean that a bit tongue in cheek, of course. Let's just say from a professional standpoint, somebody who's about average at putting.

Okay. In each individual's different, so this isn't gonna apply to everyone, but is there something you can see that, you know, a typical thing, a general thing that pros when they are struggling on the greens that they struggle with. And can you see that on TV? Yes, and yes.

And with, so that's, I think your question is kind of, is there one thing? What's the one thing? Which is always a hard question to answer. Because if I do a clinic with amateur golfers, they always want that one tip. Everyone who wants a quick tip. I've really never had a player ever come to me and say, putting way better in competition all the time. I take a lot longer in competition all the time. I try harder in competition and I squeeze on to it harder in competition and I always put better than. It's always the opposite.

You know, I struggle in competition. I always put better when I'm playing with my buddies or in the pro-amps when it doesn't matter. Always. I feel like I don't take as much time. I trust my first instincts a lot. And then when I get in tournaments, I have a hard time making it my mind. So you know, if you're in instructor, I don't want to say a typical instructor, but if you're

a instructor that's used to having a student come to you, putting everything on video, and then breaking down the true mechanics of what's happened in that stroke, that stroke gets affected by a player's thoughts before they go there. And if there's doubt, if there's tenetiveness, you know, if there's bad memories, if there's nerves that come kicking in, whatever you're seeing in the stroke, you can't measure those two things. And when you look at a player's statistics over a course of a year, what's never measured is, and by the way, the shot link stuff's changing the game for how players practice, what part of the game they have to practice. But, you know, I tell all my students,

I hate to say students because I feel like I'm not like a teacher and instructor really, but it's, I feel like I'm more of a friend. I don't know. But it's, is there such a status strokes game attitude? And you know, it's an immeasurable stat. And almost all players put their par-puts better than they put their birdie-puts. That's a fact. It's a fact, but why? Mental. It's mental. So they can't be technical, can it?

No. You know, if you have 10 footers for par versus birdie, and you make, you know, say you make 45% of those things if they're for par and 30% if they're for birdie, how can that be technique? Right. That's a marked birdie measured stat. Yeah, and it's fascinating to me how you think about it.

And that's why, you know, one of the things we talked about today with Rory was like, can you be in that mindset when I love when a player starts telling me what they're going to do, they're verbalizing what they're doing, they're verbalizing their imagery really, and then they they're showing off, watch this, and those percentage of puts go up. Their routine is flawless and there is flow. You can see that in the best athletes. You know, one of the first times I met Bob Rhotella, we were watching basketball. He was a basketball coach and he played basketball, but he said, look, let's watch these

players at the free throw line. But he says, I want you to put a thumb over the basket. And when you watch the routine, tell me whether the ball is going to go in or not. See if you can see that flow. And I mean, today I had that video of Roy hitting a chip shot while he was doing a clinic to the amateur golfers that Harry, his caddy had sent to me. And I mean, Rory, this is you at your best when you're subconscious and letting it go. And that, I think that resonates with a player

where they're right state of mind. It's just repeating what you keep wanting to see and do. Right, but you can't fake like going into your subconscious, right? Like if you want something hard enough, you can't be like, oh, well, I'm just gonna treat this just like a shot on the practice screen. I'd imagine, I mean, is that fair to say? No, it's pretty fair to say. And you have to, that's why it's much more fun for me

than no offense to average golfers to help somebody that wants to be the greatest player in the world, because they do know the difference. But, but you. But when I gave Roy that 60 degree, Wadgin just said hit a few shots, but you know from seven, eight feet, whatever it was, it was just interesting. You know, I look at a few things like we talked about. Does he soul the club on the ground before he takes it back? And then you know, you have to have to hit the blade of the putter, the leading edge

has to hit the middle of the ball. That's to have your best chance at it. How do you do it? Do you do it throughout the putter? And that happens with a regular putter, your putter's sold on the ground. And then somewhere in the transition and the follow-through before impact, that putter's got to be off the ground a certain amount to get the middle of the ball and the middle-through before impact, that putter's going to be off the ground a certain amount to get the middle of the ball and the middle of the face. And he does it without thinking with

the sandwich flawless. So it is, and he made a lot of them, didn't he? And then if he can feel how that feels and understand that that's having a subconscious mind or an athletic mind and an instinctual mind, then he can bring that to the course. But if you have no idea what it's supposed to feel like on the golf course or your struggle, and somebody says, well, just don't think about it. That doesn't work. No. I've been very putting focused and I'm not done with putting questions. But you mentioned Rhotela a couple times, and I want to, I hope this translates to people, but in high school we had this audio book. I have no idea where we got it or it was kind of like a podcast before the report.

Podcast, but I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. It's from the Bob Brotella golf is a game of confidence. Oh, sure. Yeah, and I don't know if you were a co-author of that or it's basically about your final round at Riviera and 95 of the PGH Championship. So that's the second chapter of the book, which is sitting right there. Okay. I get to see it every day. And it was really Bob Cullen was his ghost writer and Cullen sat down with me and basically asked me about the whole week at Riviera, the PGH Championship.

And that was the final event before the Ryder Cup in 1995, which was at Oak Hill and Rochester. And I was a player that had started to play better a few years before, one of few tournaments. And as a potential first time Ryder Cup where I knew that I would never get selected unless I made the team. I wasn't going to be a captain's pick, especially in that era.

Yeah. Never happened. And I had played a few pretty good rounds there and hadn't had anything exciting happened in the last day. I was in, I think I was a 19th or 20th place going into the final round, five or six shots behind Elkinton, Ells, Montgomery, and had one of those dream rounds, and a particularly dream, nine. And you know, I had a course that I loved. It was an easy course to see a shape or see a shot Riviera in ideal conditions. A weather-wise, there wasn't much rough there, hot,

which we had always played the LA open in cold weather there in February. And then we had horrific greens, maybe the worst greens that ever played in competition because the golf course had just been renovated by Bill Corn, Ben Crenshaw, and the whatever Brubute Grass or Poeantigress that they used didn't take. And they were awful. And that would have been a compliment. But like happens in a lot of great rounds, I had up the first, it was a short part five,

and I had a good drive and a beautiful five iron, and had a 20 footer for an eagle and it went in. And all the bumps went the right way. And it just kind of set a tone for a round that turned out to be the best round in my career and the most important round. and it just kind of set a tone for a round that turned out to be the best round of my career in the most important round. But I shot 28 the front nine in a major. So you think about records, Ken Records would be broken.

I tied a record by that only one other player had done before and that was in the 1920s and to shoot 27 in a major. I mean, you rarely hear 27 shot. I don't know if that's going to happen. So it would be a part 34 and I don't know if that's going to happen. No part five. So it could be around for a while. I don't see your names on a list, right? It's at least a short list.

But it was one of the greatest days. And I've had, I read that book because it's me, you know, just because I like it. But I've also, and it feels funny to be able to say if I said to Brandon Grace, who lives here, you know, you should read this chapter. I don't want to be pruning me, but I mean, the fact, because I was very honest and truthful about my thoughts wavered throughout that round, you know, I had thoughts get in my way that I had to overcome. And something that, you know, I three putted a green that day, missed a couple of putts that I wished I'd made and my reaction and everything.

I mean, it's on paper now. And I think it was a really good lesson. And a lot of people enjoy it. I don't know if you. Well, I just remember listening to that in high school. And like, maybe the first time I listened to it, I went out and played like the best round I'd ever had right after that. And I've always tried to channel the confidence from that because the line that always stuck with me, and maybe it

maybe didn't stick with me that great because I'm not sure I remember it, but I think it was confidence is playing with your eyes. Is that sound right? Yeah, I mean, what does that mean? Is that sound right? Yeah, I mean, what does that mean? Well, we saw that today with Roy, wasn't it? It's like he, what he sees, and remember when he was behind the ball today, on that, let's call it a 20 footer, and he said, I'm going to play it six inches out there, and he used the shaft as almost like a plum bomb, like Justin Rose does.

What do we know if that was six inches or not? What he sees is very different. It doesn't matter to me. The last thing I would do is get a ruler and say, is this what you see six inches to me? Because it doesn't matter what I see. It's matters what he says. And that's what he's using his eyes and how he makes it.

And when we were watching him, and I would have said that was a clinic today, watching putts go in on the high side, putts go in straight ahead. And when we were watching him, and I would have said that was a clinic today, watching putts go in on the high side, putts go in straight ahead. You know, sometimes when I saw his ball start, I'm going, oh, that's going to be too low because he started it straighter. And then they would go right in. Because he carried the speed with it.

You know, and that's the playfulness, that's the athleticness of it. And I actually tried to reach out to Steve Kerr about a week or two ago because I read an article about Steph Curry and how he when he goes out to go through the warm-ups he always shoots at different arcs you know because he he never knows when a hand's gonna get his face and he's in the middle of his motion and you know he might have somebody come in to him we have to get rid of it quicker or get rid of it higher. So he's always practicing a different arc. And I wanted to ask Curl,

one of the greatest free throw shooters in the world, did you ever try and shoot free throws at different arcs? Here's a shot that's the same, right? Because I've been preaching to my guys, look, can you hit this putt at different speeds? Can you hit a straight putt very soft and diet in or can you smash it in the back? And what feels better to you? And not that I want one to feel better to you, or not. I just want you to know certain days, it might be the firm one, certain days, it might

be the soft one. So what you made the Ryder Cup team through that, through that final round of Riviera? What was your first Ryder Cup experience like? Well, you get, I get questions. What was the most nervous you've ever been in your life? And people will always say it must have been, you know, your first time, your T-shot at the Masters, or on the first T at the Ryder Cup, or, you know, a putt to win your first tournament or a major championship, which I never did. But I can tell you at the Ryder Cup in 95, we played a practice round on Monday when the gates were closed so there were no people, no spectators. And then Tuesday we went out and I got

appearing with Lauren Roberts, Peter Jacobson and Corey Paveon and Peter and I were a potential four-bought team. Lanny wanted us to be the first ones out and that morning, that particular morning, and okay But in Rochester was later September. So it was cool. It wasn't cold, but I would say it was 50s and Peter and I were gonna go out there and play we had to walk from the practice T to the dry to the first T which was a Hundred yards. Maybe longer There was a gauntlet there, and there were people waving flags, screaming USA, and we'd gone from a dead silent course today

before to all of a sudden thousands, thousands of people. Practicemen are rowdy. Oh my gosh, it was incredible. And none of us had seen this before. I don't think we were prepared for that. And we're walking up there. We're all wearing our red, white, and blue, and the flags are going, and people are high five, And we're walking up there, we're all wearing our red, white, and blue, and the flags are going, and people are high five,

and we're walking up there. It was fun. And we walk up onto the tee, and just kind of the backside of the first tee there. It's standing on the first tee, Byron Nelson, George Herbert Walker Bush, wave in American flags. And then-

Just a normal tournament, right? Yeah, and I'm like, oh my god, that's a power in Nelson. And he said, come on Brad, and I'm like, he knows my name. Brad doesn't know too much. I'm like, oh my god. So, and then it was like uncanny. There was a voice of God said,

and on the tee, first to play from the United States of America, which I had never had before. Maybe I had it in a Walker Cup. Brad Faxon, I didn't know I was going to be the first one hit. And I was like, oh my god, I don't know if I can do it. And this was 1992, so I was 95. So I was one of the last guys to switch from wood to metal. And the metal wood, I was probably using either a tailor-made or a

founder's club. I don't know if you're old enough for that or a founder's club. But I took that thing out there and it looked smaller than the golf ball when I was over it. And the first hole it'll kill is a long dog leg left par four without a bounds to the right. It was blown left to right. It was cold. I was nervous. And what makes it worse is we had this little phrase called might M-I-T-E. That meant man in the envelope. What that meant was we all knew that if on Sunday in the singles match, one player was hurt on the other team. Lanny was going to have to put a man in the envelope. A name in the envelope. So if somebody hit a bad shot that week, we all said, might.

So you were gonna be the guy that didn't play. Right. So it might, yeah. Yeah, and I thought, anytime Lanny was around, and I hit a bad shot, I was thinking, might, you know, it was just the worst thing. Because that had happened to the war by the short. Steve Payte got an accident, right? In the limo.

And I was, it's good, you were even born then. So, that's born in 86. Okay, so we go out, I go to hit it. And I got an airborne, I hit a draw and it ended up just in the left rough. And for me, it was the best shot of my life, right? Without a doubt, and everybody hits, and we go out there laughing,

and I think either Lauren or Corey, was the only guy to hit the fairway, and then we get out there, and magically all four balls were within five, 10 yards of each other, because Lanny had thrown them all out in the middle of the fairway, he was out in the landing area, and he comes over like Lanny,

he can with that swagger. And he says, ah, you guys won't hit it there in the tournament in the competition. I'm like, I might. I don't get a lot of fairly good. If I hit it good, I'd go. So you're right.

So now, I had like 210, 220, and it was wet. It's a little downhill lie. There was a creek 10 or 15 yards short of that green. And I had to take out a two iron. And this is back with two wires. That's a different shot. They didn't have head covers, right? They weren't fat.

And I'm like, oh, and Landy's watching. And I'm like, I could be kicked off the team right now. This doesn't get over the creek. And so that first hole was the most uncomfortable I've ever been in. That's a practice. I was in a practice. I was way more comfortable playing. Way more comfortable.

So, I mean, it's ironic that it's a practice run. It's not unexpected that it was the rider cup, though, right? And there, that's a cool letter that I got from Byron Nelson. He wrote me a letter one time. And after my second place finished at a tour championship, he saw an interview. So to have a framed letter, handwritten pen letter on his stationary and that the great line there at the very end, he says, you're a fine man.

Now, who says that? Right. Nobody phrases anything like that. You can hear the accent though. And you can even find when you said, what a throw. You got a hell of a hell of an office in here. What a thrill. A lot of, a lot of topics that I plan to get to at some point. So what is, how have you seen the Ryder Cup evolve over time?

I feel like 91 was a changing year, just in the intensity, I guess, and the, I don't want to say hostility, but it just seemed to get a little bit more hostile. And 99 was a big transition year. You played in two of them in between that. Could you feel tension, obviously you didn't have any other examples before that,

but did you feel tension starting to rise during that time period? Yeah, and it started a few years before the war before the shore when the Europeans, near Faville just added one. Got it added to the mix. And there was such a domination before that, when it was just just GB and I that

with the influx of Europeans that all seemed to come over at once whether it was sevy or langer and then you had other great players from GB and I like Sandy L Island and Ian Wusdom and they all seemed to come at once. And the European tour was, you know, maybe not in its infancy, but about it. But those players, those great players won a lot more because the depth of competition wasn't nearly as strong as it was in the US. And I don't think it is as strong now.

I mean, that might get some arguments from some of the Europeans, but Rory made those comments didn't he? Yeah, that's a fact. So it is a fact. And I think they know it. And I think that's why Rory's wanted to stay over here. Right.

European players, it's not European players versus American players because like, but like the tours are, it's not even comparable. You can't. And, but I think it helps the European side when players that we haven't heard as much about over here, like a Vsperger or a Matt Wallace, can win over there and gain a lot of confidence from winning. And that helps them in the match play part of it. The anomaly between among all of this is how do do they with so many different cultures come

together as a team seemingly better than the US does? Is it the importance we play on it? Put on it more or is there more of an ego factor on some of the biggest names in America? Can golf where they don't care about Ryder Cup because major championships or winning is more money is more important. You know, it's a combination of all those things. Right. I would say I had one experience with one of the PJ America presidents who asked me, and

this was before A-Zinger was selected. And this president Roger Warren was a fantastic guy. We were flying to do an event for titleist up to New England where I was from. And we were on a private plane at the time, which was fantastic. And I don't know who paid for that. But I said yes. And it was just Roger and I were talking about Ryder Cup and Captain's selections and everything like this. And I remember, you know, there were a few choices there

which was, was Azing of the Right, the pick to be the Captain. And Roger asked me, what, what are your thoughts? And I asked him, I said, well, can I start off by asking you, does it matter if you, if the American side wins or not? And he goes, well, of course it does. And I said, well, then your whole process is wrong. And this is really before they got into having some sort of a, what do they call it?

Task four. Task four, or maybe all the other stuff. Task four, or maybe all the other stuff. Yeah. So I said, if you were going to care about winning, and wanted to win every time and dominate, like if you wanted to be the doing with Patriots You'd have Bill Balechick be your coach every year, right? But this is more about what looks good in a camera every two years so you can promote yourself

And I'm not blaming you for that But it went to my my question was honest. Yeah, do you care if you win? And he looked at me he was offended by it I said I know that bugs you But if you were going to do this the right way, if you were a company that was going to try and be a fortune 10 company, you wouldn't do it the way you're doing it. Right.

And you might not pick the best players in the world to be on your team, because they're not team players. Right. Goes down to venues too. I mean venues that are selected are. It goes down to ratings. Right. And I mean, I venues too. I mean, venues that are selected are it goes down to ratings. Right. And I mean, I'm going to get off topic here with this. And it's interesting. You know, like Tiger still hasn't said whether he's going to play in the president's

cup dish, right? And he made a comment while I'm going to ask my teammates. Now what team? No, Tiger, we don't want you, man. What we don't want you to play. Do you think Justin Thomas? Yeah, Tiger Tag. Why don't you just just one out, man? We got this. And by the way, it might be something, you know, where NBC says to Jay Monahan says, our ratings are a lot better if Tiger Woods plays. And they will be. Right. Yeah. I think I think the president's cup and the writer cup are two different spectacles. I think like, obviously, Tiger should play in the president's cup and the writer cup are two different spectacles. I think like obviously Tiger should play in the president's cup. Why not? I'd love to see him play. Yeah, and maybe it's just, I'm a, it couldn't be more of a diehard US writer cup fan, but

like if the US loses the president's cup, I won't, I won't bat an eye. I think it, I think it'll bother me how much people will panic about it probably, but like I'd rather see the spectacle. I want to see Tiger at Royal Melbourne. That's kind be awesome. Now the question the better question and this is one I had on my list is you know putting on the prediction cut the cap for next year. Do you think he's on if you're a guest right now if you're a bet you think he's on the

Ryder Cup team next year at with some straights? I had a four hour drive to think about this to you. Yeah that's a good question because he was on the ballot for player of the year, by the way, because he won the Masters. To me, if he wants to play on that rider cup, I think he knows he has to do better than he did towards the end of the year. He can't just mail it in. And France, I mean, he was absent.

And I think that that win for him to go was it nine years, 11 years between majors? 11 years. 11 years. He had his kids there, they hadn't seen that. Everything that he did off the course, it all went away. And it just made everything his life. I think he's more satisfied with that major win than anything else.

I don't think his drive is there like it was. Now, when it gets to Augusta, that's a different story. I mean, that turns on everybody's engine a little bit faster and harder than any other event. So he's going to have to finish the season next year to make the Ryder Cup team. And strikers friendly as they are, he's not going to pick Tyger just because he's buddy and just because he won a master a year and a half ago. Yeah, I think it's going to come down to Tiger answering, you know, the question, the question is going to be answered one of two ways. It's, are you okay with 99 being the only team that you want on? And basically admitting, you know what, maybe I was part

of the problem in some way. I'm tough to pair with. I haven't played my best too much attention around me, too much pressure on my teammate. Maybe it's best I sit this out. If he's able to have that attitude, and I don't know if he is, and I don't know if that's the right attitude necessarily, maybe he's still, I mean,. If he's able to have that attitude, and I don't know if he is, and I don't know if that's the right attitude necessarily, maybe he's still, I mean, for all he's been through and the fact that he won the Masters, maybe he has one great Ryder Cup appearance

in a age 44. No, and I think maybe, I have no doubt in my mind that if Tiger commits himself to an entire year like he did for last year at the start of the year, he will be on the Ryder Cup team and that his teammates will want him on that team. He was on the, his first Ryder Cup was my Ryder Cup in 97 and we were the only two players

there without a significant other. So we sat next to each other on the Concord when we flew the Concord to Spain. And he was a great teammate and as a matter of fact, in the singles match, as I was playing the Langer, and we were the deciding match, unfortunately it went the wrong way, but Tiger came and watched my match, and I'm like, Tiger was watching me play. I mean, this was, this was, this was the way it's 21. But that's what a teammate does, right? He comes out and he's pulling for you. And I think that he probably got hurt a little bit as did Duval. You know, Marco Miro was his mentor, living together at a aisle worth, and I played a lot of

practice rounds together. And I think Mark would have been a player that raised early on before anybody did and verbalized it and got it in the press, which I thought was almost an un-mentionable that, hey, look, we're getting taken advantage of. And I think he had a legitimate gripe that the PGA of America was promoting us, making us go through all kinds of jump through hoops and pop in circumstance, right, while you're at the event that was promoting them and for them for their game, you know, that's a huge windfall every four years over here. And O'Mears said something that I don't think anybody wanted to ever say because you couldn't win that battle. There's no fan that's gonna ever go mark we feel bad for you. You don't have to take any money this week. But he he kind of got a few of those players under his wing and maybe that was, you know, so Tiger might not have been a social guy. It didn't want to go to a black tie dinner the night before the first round. Nobody wants to do that. But

I think there are a bunch of players too that have now grown up seeing what Ryder cup is. And so I'd swim swim across the ocean to go play. Well, the way I remember the pay to play stuff, it, and maybe at least the way it ended up was different than how it was presented and that the money eventually players, I think, got something, every player got like $200,000 that goes to a charity. Of their choice. Of their choice. Yeah, no, and that's significant. And that was, and maybe it's a bit of revisionist history, but what I feel like I've heard David DuVall speak on it too, and that like all, you know, they looked around and said, this is an insanely big corporate outing.

There's a ton of money being generated. We don't necessarily want the cash for ourselves, but like, you, you, all guys, and I want to talk to you about your charitable endeavors, like, there's something that comes with making a significant amount of money. The things that you guys are able to do with it, right? It doesn't all go to yourselves. And there's things you want to support and things you want to put your power behind. And there was, like you said, there's no way to win that. There wasn't a way to explain like, I want money for charity for doing this, but I don't

know. It was just a weird situation that, you know, the guys had to take that on and it has been addressed since then and been quiet ever since then, but it wasn't, it was a worthy cause in some way. I do think. I'm taking the side of the millionaire pros, I know, but it makes sense. Yeah, so Mark O'Meara was a pioneer maybe in something

that I wouldn't want to be remembered as, but he moved the needle in the right direction. And maybe it cost him a captaincy too, because O'Meara could have been a worthy captain. And Crenshaw did not support the players in this regard either. He said it makes me sick, it makes me sick that they were they're requesting this. Correct. Yeah, so there were a few players like to ball that will to major that want a significant amount of events that could have been a captain that you know the PGA turned that page quickly. And the I I don't think there was a formula that could have been correct to say this is the right amounting to get amount of money to give every player because if you had Tiger Woods,

what is he command for an appearance for us? So first time rookie player. Pick one. And seven days of someone's time. So yeah, so there was no way you could say, okay, let's give everybody $500,000 and that would make one person ecstatic and Tiger would go, that's what I'm going to day or whatever. Right. So, yeah, and being able to say, I'm going to take that $250 or $300,000 and say that's going to

go to the Tiger Woods Foundation or the Android Facts. And whatever it was, I think that gives the player some satisfaction. Well, let's perfect transition there. Talk to me about the Android Facts and how you guys came up with that. And I'm assuming that his Billy Android, of course, is your partner with that. And when did that start? And what is it? Yeah.

So Billy, another Rhode Islander, he's three years younger than I am. So he played a different course than I did growing up. He went to a different high school. So we knew each other as teenagers, but not well. We played in a few state junior events together. I was at Ferman for one year when he was at Wake Forest. So we started to get to know each other. But Billy always got, he was always a better junior player,

quicker than I was. He was a better college player, quicker than I was. And he, frankly, he won a PGA Tour event before I did being three years younger. And when we were living in Rhode Island, we were lucky enough to get to know a lot of New England athletes, and obviously a great sports town, Boston, with all the different major sports, and having played the tour for a few years and gotten to know some different celebrities, we were

asked to do an outing for one of the biggest organizations in Rhode Island called the Meeting Street Center. And it was a school for physically challenged, mentally challenged kids. It's a one of a kind school. And Billy's brother just happened to go there. We did this outing for Meeting Street. And we did it for a couple of years. We raised some good money for the school.

And then Billy and I started talking with our wives, saying, hey, listen, we could do a lot more if we did this ourselves and got some celebrities to come along. And so we started this and the money went to Meeting Street School, like a lot of money back in the early 90s, where we were raising a few hundred thousand dollars which was

unheard of. And then we went to meeting streets and said, look, we're going to do this on our own and we're going to give you 50% of the proceeds, the other 50% we're going to give to other charities. And they said, no, I said, you're going to say no to this buddy. And then next year we raised 700,000. And then it kept snowballing. And we had celebrities like there's Glenn Fry right there. Cady for being the masters one year. In the Part 3 tournament we had Bill Murray, Joe Pescibili was friendly with Joe. We had so many of the Bruins players, Bobby or Camnilly, Don Swaney, Sandy Kof, who never played in programs. He played in our event. We had Danny Sullivan, a race car driver, Andre Tippett, Steve Grogon from the Patriots.

I mean, the list goes on and on. I'll leave out a ton of them. We had so much, John, a hurly reactor that plays in a lot of golf events. We had dozens and dozens of great body Blair. We had, I mean, Dan Chanson. We had, I mean, Dan Janssen. We had so many of the coolest athletes and they would come together and see themselves. And when cofax was there, we had pictures,

like Roger Clemens and Andy Pettit and Tom Glaven sitting at the same table. And Chris Burman was there. He's like, look at looking at this table going, that's the greatest of the little wins in the history. And the game in Tom Glavin came away because Cofax taught him how to pitch inside to a right hand or at Fenway Park. And he had one of the best years of his career because of a conversation he had at

the Andrade Fax. That was no way. How cool is that? Oh my god. So I mean that was really successful. We were probably the first tour players to have we won national awards Charles Bartlett, Ben Crosby, we won Jim Murray. I mean we these things that we did together were sensational and rewarding. And we've given over eight or nine million dollars away now to over a hundred different children's charities in the state of Rhode Island. The PGA tour website, they've got you for 19 million. Well, no, see, the confusion is, is because we've been doing the CVS charity class, started in 1999 after we had been doing the

entered in fax and for a while. So we got mixed up with those two events and the CVS event that we're still doing. We're going into our 20 second year, 21st year. We, 22nd year. We were getting money from that event and then we started doing the entered effects and every other year because it was hard to do both.

But then the CVS thing became a monster event. We had it on TV early on. It started giving away millions of dollars. We had Arnold and Jack and Gary come to our event the first few years. It was surreal. That was to be able to have CVS, which is one of the top 10 companies in the world in Rhode Island, in one of the smallest states, but having the smallest state have some professional golfers that had had some success.

And a great course is Rhode Island Country Club on the water. I mean, all the players loved coming there. We had Hall of Famers, Nick Price loved the place. Calcabay, I mean, you can loved the place. Calcutta, I mean, you can't list them all for me. We had them all. Well, one of the questions Bacon had me ask you. I don't know what the question is, but something how you are connected with everyone in the whole of the house. Not on the celebrity.

No. Well, the main question I have related to that is, you're an extra in kingpin. How did that happen? Well, the fairly, brothers are from Boston area, Bobby and Peter, and they were two of the celebrities that played in our event. Now, when they first started doing their early movies and we got them to play some of the people on our board, we're like, the Farley brothers aren't celebrities. And then their movies got really big. Something about Mary came out and a lot of the Boston athletes were in little roles that they had each year. And Billy and I got to be in the something about Mary with Bill Murray, which was tremendous. But they, in our auction, which...

Kingpin. Kingpin. We had a legendary auction in this event. And Sean McDonough, one of the great announcers of the world, he helped host our auction. He is one of the funniest human beings when he wants to be that I've ever seen. But the family brothers auctioned off roles

in their movies to people in our crowd. And one of the emitter players, a guy named Malcolm Chase, who was, he gave more money to us than anybody alive. He and his wife were so great to us. And he, he was the largest single shareholder at the time of Berkshire Hathaway. And, and, and been very successful, as you can imagine. But his, his wife Liz still lives down here at Lostry.

We still see her and she's been such a great pillar of strength for us when we had gotten a trouble or had needed advice. But he bought the role for $100,000 a speaking role in the movie. So you get to sit at a bar, have a drink with I can't remember the exact scene now. But and to see those numbers, when you're in Rhode Island

and people are bidding for, I think the greatest item we ever had, we had a rack made by a well-known architect, David Andrews, he took this Brazilian walnut frame. And we had a spot on this rack for the Living Masters champions. And we got all, we got titleist golf balls with the Masters logo. We got the addresses of all the Living Champions. We sent it to them with Sharpies, telling them what we're doing, how we're going to auction off. Please do this for us. And we had Henry Picard, we had Ben Hogan, we had Gene Saras and on these balls. So we did this, well most of them were still alive. And some of them would sign golf balls.

We asked Gary and Jack, I'm sorry, not Gary, Jack, Jack and Tom Watson at the memorial time. We were sitting down at this table with him and we asked them for autographs and they didn't want to do it. We asked Tiger. He didn't want to do it. And we started to explain to him what we were doing and they all ended up doing it. And we had Mario Lemue there, one of the greatest hockey players I've ever lived. And he wanted to so badly. And it was a piece of art. This thing belonged on a wall somewhere. And then we had a big private equity guy from Boston going against him And it's sold for $50,000 back in this would have been 1996 and

This guy had all kinds of art on his walls at his nice house And he said I have people come into my house all the time and they only look at this golf ball wreck I have you know the Renoir's and Monays and you can name it. There's other conversation pieces. Thank you, thank you. I like to write to you. What you got around your office too.

This isn't maybe the best transition, but we talked a lot about your game and your putting. And I feel like you are always really self-deprecating about your ball striking. So I want to, which I'm trying to keep that as a golf fan, I was always trying to keep that relative, right? Because obviously you were a professional golfer, you were still our professional golfer and you have been for such a long time, you spent,

I mean, you have, I think 708 career starts. How do you make 708 career starts on the PGA tour if you're not a good ball striker? I know. I was streaky. Well, I'm trying to understand what that means starts on the PGA tour if you're not a good ball striker. I know. I was streaky. I'm trying to understand what that means is kind of where I'm getting at with that. Well, I think what it means more than anything

is you had some sort of grit, to have success when it tournaments hard. I think you can pick a lot of different things that you might be proud about. Winning tournaments is what everybody's trying to do But I won my first tournament in 1986 and my last one in 2005 on the PGA tour and then so I mean to play well for a long period of time I went a pretty long streak from

1984 when I got my card to 2006 before I ever lost my card. Right. It was insane. Yeah, so it really, that's one thing that I want to, every chance I get to hammer home, the fact that people are able to keep their cards for 10, 20 years, what Pat Perez is doing is so underrated.

19 straight years of the card. And nobody notices it, but the idea that you are one of the top 125s in the world every single year is it's unfathomable. Because I've each of gone without injury, without some kind of a slump, and there's a lot of personal stuff in your lives that can happen, you know, whether it's having a kid, problems with children or illnesses or whatever, or losing interest. Or some people I know early on when the World Series at Akron would players like Fulton Alam or Dennis Watson when they won a 10-year exemption, it gave them time to change or relax or not keep the foot on the gas and you never heard

from them after that. So sometimes those things can hurt you. They don't give out 10-year exemptions anymore. No, and I was on the board when we did and I'm like, this is a good reason not to have a 10-year exemption. I mean, we showed a few guys that basically lost their cars because, hey, I can experiment now. I can relax now because I've got money and exemptions forever. But going back to that, I never hit a lot of fairways in my life. And actually, I've showed these stats to Macro and he laughs, you

know, I mean, but by the way, I think he's impressed too because, you know, you see somebody that hits the ball well a lot and has less success. That's a hard way to play the game too, isn't it? You can frustrate players by hitting it left, hitting it right, chipping it on, making the putt all day long. But would you, I mean, your self-deprecation with your ball striking, is that, was that a real thing when you were playing? Were you walking to the first tee thinking, ah, just getting on the green?

Or were you confident in your game T-degreed? When I played my best, I was. And I had stretches. There were always like three or four-year stretches where I was like, I'm pretty confident. And I could pull those off for a while where I felt like I wasn't questioning what I was doing with my swing.

I was doing kind of what I teach now is being more athletic and being more instinctive and visualized and shots. And I had stretches where I felt like you can't hit it better than a man. Yeah, yeah. And maybe that's relative. No, that makes me feel a lot better about it

because I've always just wondered, like I didn't make like every 35 fliteries. No, very. No. How many roughly, how many instructors I've always just wondered like I didn't make like every 35 flutteries. No, no. How many roughly, how many instructors have you worked with every, over your career? OK, so you had a qualified, paid instructors or hair. I did a talk last year at the PGA show, I think.

And I had a list of all the instructors that I remember. That's another part, too. I remember that I paid and I spent time with. And I think I did this first for Greg Rose at the TPI and he laughed so hard. And I spoke this year and when I put that list up, they were over 80 and it's probably over 90 now. And I said, listen, if your name's not on there, I apologize.

And if your name's on there and I haven't paid you, you're not getting paid now because of Statue of Limits. Less limitations. Less limitations is over. So, and I think everybody got a kick out of it. But I did take a lot of lessons. And, you know, if you looked at my books, there's a lot of instruction books up here too. But I'm just, I love the game. I love, I can tell how much you love golf. That's, that's like real. It's for somebody that's done it for a long time. That's not a guarantee, you know, I mean, as certain, how would you know? 58, 58, like a certain age that you've been in golf for so long, it's, it would be

easy to be sick of it, I think, but the enthusiasm, like you've been in golf for so long, it would be easy to be sick of it, I think, but the enthusiasm, and you still have the enthusiasm when you're broadcasting and just seeing you out there today, you picked up a club and we're hitting balls immediately. Like you still kind of have what is. Rory had that plane trainer, I don't know what it's called, but it was interesting. I want to see what that feels like in a shot and I just walked off a plane So why did my balls go so much lower and shorter than Roy's home? I was like watching him hit these balls. I'm like I'm not even seeing the swing speed. I'm watching the club and I'm like I can follow it. How is it lunch?

I don't know how it how it all works. It's awesome. Yeah, it's awesome I mean, I know now what what butch harbored must have first felt like when he first saw Tiger hit balls back in 96 or 70 first started getting together and to be around Roy for this long year and a half and haven't been seeing him on the practice. I've spent a lot of time just standing there behind him when he's with Michael just kind of watching and it's the sound, the compression, the size. Well, what is your first memory of Tiger? I mean, as far as like seeing his game playing with them

or just walking by him on the range, seeing him hit it, was it, I mean, one, you were a veteran by the time he got out there, were you a little aggravated with how much hype there was around him coming into it? Did you know he was gonna be that good? That was like eight questions at once, but I'm excited to talk Tiger.

So you don't know the first time I met Tiger, you haven't heard of this yet. Somebody asked you to ask me I don't think I know. No. Well, we I was playing a practice round at the Honda Classic in Weston. And I started on the back nine and I was I don't know why I can't remember who the other player that I was with was, but we made the turn and there was a bag on the first tee with stand, like a carry bag. And there was one person there with a caddy who we didn't know who it was and it was Tiger Woods and he was 16 years old. So, how old am I? 58 Tigers 40 90 93 so he's 16 years you know, 93. Yeah. Yeah. And I was a good player then. I mean, I was

way to turn him. So I was like starting to be. I was top 10 moneyless guy, probably in those in 92. I was for sure. But so Tiger would have known who I was because he was a student of the game from the career. He is and he asked us if he could join us. And I don't know if Tiger, I didn't ask him if he, if it was just coincidence that he wanted to play with me that back, well, our back in his first night, or if he just showed up at that time when we were there, but he knew I was a good chipper putter. And three, he said, can I join him? We're like, sure. So I'm looking at this kid going who's this kid?

He hits a drive we hit a drive and I didn't really Look at his drive and think wow, he really smoked that right and the guy was playing with Hard I'm still not sure we go walking out there and 708 tournaments be can forgive you for missing or getting your practice walkin' out there. And seven hundred eight tournaments, we can forgive you for missing or getting your practice. So there's a ball here and a ball there and then there's one like 20 or 30 yards out there and I just go straight to the farthest one out there and then I walk 30 yards back to mine and I go this son of a

bitch. He it was Tiger and he was 16, he weighed 110 and I'm like that wasn't embarrassing. Moment and he walks up there and I'm like, that wasn't embarrassing. Moment. And he walks up there and I'm sure he's like, yeah, I got him. He was waiting for the walk up. He was definitely a sprinkler head I'm saying. And he ended up being so nice and inquisitive and asking questions and talking about putting him, we chipped and we hit all kinds of little trick shots. And Tiger did that throughout his career.

Early on, you know, he played with Greg Norma, not early on, wanted to be a great driver of the ball. He knew I was a good putter. We talked about putting, we played a lot of practice when we chipped on a lot of the practice area greens when he first got out on the tour. So that was my first experience with Tiger and I was really impressed at this age that he could play. I know he played at Revy Era as a young kid

growing up out there in the LA open, but when he first got out of the tour, which would have been 96 when he got out of school, he had played in a couple masters in the Amnor, hadn't had any success. And I was like, I wasn't thinking that he was going to do what he did, that he beat love in the play off there in Vegas. And, you know, we were still playing quite a bit. He ended up

winning twice and then getting his car to one of the masters with ease. And we, you know, he kept saying stuff like, I'm winning without my A game. And we, you know, he kept saying stuff like, I'm winning without my A game, and I finally pulled him aside with Davis Love. We were at the Fort colonial, and we were in the, it was then the fitness trailer sponsored by Sentinel Hospital.

And we said, Tiger, you know, you've made these comments that are a little bit like Kepp has taken today. Do you care if you have friends really? Because you're winning a Masters by a record number of shots and telling people you don't have your A game. You're not gonna. Right.

You're not gonna like it. You're not gonna appreciate that. And I think it was a good conversation. I thought he was so competitive. He just wanted to beat everybody so badly. He wasn't really worried about what he was saying or what people were thinking, but I think it was good for him to hear that. From two respected guys, I mean, Davis is the respect that golfers have ever played the

game, and I used to be. So, those two events were the first tiger memories. Right. Well, what, uh, for you, what your career coming up when you came out, you know, as a rookie in your first few years, you weren't as successful as you were in the early 90s. What changed in your career? What made you really hit your stride in like the early 90s? Maybe I have a time line a bit wrong, but around, it seems to be around maybe late 80s, early 90s. Maybe I have the timeline a bit wrong, but it seems to be around, maybe late 80s, early 90s is when you really kind of turn to page.

It was definitely the early 90s. And I would say that Billy Andrade, who we talked about earlier in the show, wrote Islander, he won two events back-to-back in the summer of 1991. He won the Kemper Open, and then he won at Westchester. And he was a close friend and a player that I felt like I was as good as or maybe better than. And I had been what I didn't want to be a journeyman. And, you know, I had had moderate success finished

in the 70th, 80th on the money list. And when he won the second one, I said, I'm going to get my act together. And then I won the Buick Open in a playoff against Chip Beck. And he came back. He was on his way to the airport. He heard I got in a playoff. So he and his wife, Jody drove back to watch the playoff and we celebrated that night. And it was, I mean, that made a lot to me. You know, he had been a close friend for a long time. But seeing Billy win really kind of, I think it sparked me to like, get your head out of your button, you know, win a tournament. And I had been consistently working with McLean at the time, got my ball striking a little bit better.

And I had worked with Rotella early on, so I think we tried to have this game plan of, you're curious, you're up and down a little bit. Let's just try and keep the train heading north and instead of keep trying different things. And that really helped, you know, winning what comes first, winning your confidence. You gotta have confidence first,

or you're gonna have a hard time being successful. So that kind of snowballed. It got me to where I had a really good season in 92 and won twice lost in two playoffs and really felt much more comfortable playing on that stage. One thing that I feel like in talking to the few conversations we've had, I feel like you've had, you have more appreciation for golf course architecture than a lot of professional golfers do. Is that something you feel like you've always had or is that something you've developed kind of later in your career in life? Always had. I've always had that love for architecture. Growing up in Rhode Island, I grew up on a Donald Ross course. Donald Ross actually used to summer in Little Compton,

Rhode Island, where he built Sakanet Country Club, which was a par 69 course. So we had some of the best golf courses that were in the country were in Rhode Island, Wantamoyce at Country Club, which was another par 69 where the Northeast Ameter was, was a place that I played the Northeast Ameter played a lot. And then when you when you started travel through New England, you had William Flynn, who did the country club at Brookline. I played an unbelievable course on the Cape called Eastward Ho, Herbert Fowler design. Still one of my favorite courses in the world. So I got to be familiar with all those names. Billy's course, Wannem-Atonomi was a Seth Reiner. If you went and saw other Rotan courses in New

Park Country Club where the senior opens going to be next year, that's had some Ross Tillinghast, Flynn, Willie Park who did Point Judas. So those names were there. I sketched holes as a kid, just loved architecture, read books on it. I wanted to go play great courses. I love great logos. Bacon and I always have, you know. You got a great, you're rocking a great logo right there.

Yeah, I was baking today. I said, you know, I had this, this change of clothes in my car because I was coming from the airport to go meet Nakal Roy right after I got off the plane. And I just put, I knew I had these black shoes, I went to black socks and black shorts, and I found this the Pine Valley shirt here and I was winning, I wonder. You know, most people would recognize it like your belt got that wing foot logo, that's one of the best logos to.

So golfers know that, don't they? You know, if you play with somebody that's a real golf, a Rory knows that. He sees it, you know, I don't know if all the you play with somebody that's a real golf or Rory knows that he sees it You know, I don't know if all the tour players can recognize that are appreciated as well. You get the members logo there for pine Valley there It is that are there a lot of pros that are members at pine Valley or how did you add that end up happening for you? Nick Price was the first paying PGA tour player to be a member and that price happened in 94 I mean I'm sorry 2004. There were a few honorary members on the list and it would have been Palmer, maybe Nicholas,

maybe Crenshaw, but they never showed up. And so you're an active member. I'm an active member. I get there a couple times a year. It's maybe one of the greatest thrills of my life to be asked to be a member at Pine Valley. Because I still think it's the best course in the world. Have you been? We were just talking about it. Oh, sure. A couple of a while.

Yeah, that's a month. Yeah, it's, did it. Oh, yeah. It, it, it, it, we, we, we did a disagreement there because the, the, the argument that people have is what's the worst all at Pine Valley, because you can't even, like, you can't identify. That's right. I remember, sorry.

And the ability to bring people there and see their eyes open and as good as the golf courses and the experience of Pine Valley never lets you down. It always over delivers. Now what's what surprised me is like, I've heard stories of people that have played Augusta and it doesn't, they don't walk away raving about the hang in the experience, right?

You feel like you're kind of nervous, you're on eggshells. In the opposite, I felt at Pine Valley, it was like, it was a place that the members wanted to share with people. Every member was there with three guests, and the idea was, hey, this place is for golfers. You got to be a player in some regard. You've got to have taken golf seriously, and this place is like the hardest golf course in the world. And if you looked at the amount of members there and what their handicaps are,

the average handicaps pretty low, they know, hey, this is a severe golf course. If you're not a player that can keep them all somewhere inside the ropes, you're in trouble at Pine Valley. But the tradition of the green coat in the crest and what you are there when you see. And it's like, if you walk in there as a member or a guest, you always introduce yourself to everybody you see. Because there's a story for everybody that's there. It's comfortable, you can play in shorts

when you're on the course. You know, just a scene in the bar, how great is that? A slide, the bar tender, they just know what you want, they know who you are, they know who's coming. It's what it's... Well, yeah, well, it's the reason why I inquire about that is for people that have played as much golf as you have. At a certain point, for some people, a lot of people, a lot of pros, I think you can

get old. A lot of people don't like playing recreational golf. How does your enjoyment of the game today differ from your truest competitive days? Well, I'm definitely, I had this conversation with Bacon. I had this conversation with Mark Lewis, my producer. What's the definition of a golfer? And to me, a golfer is somebody that lives and breathes the game throughout their lives. And they're reading instructional books or architectural books or watching the golf channel and watching competition. They're on social media looking at what all the, and Rory would be a golfer. Arnold Palmer was a golfer. I would say kept in Jack. They were competitors.

They played golf, but they wouldn't notice the logo on your belt or my shirt and go, oh, you're a member of Pine Valley. So I think you got to be all in. And Bacon and I went through our entire Fox team. Who's a golfer and versus who isn't? And it's, you know, surprisingly a lot of people like they're not familiar with Joe Buck being the voice of Fox Golf even though we've been doing it for five years because, you know, we only appear once a year for PTA tour events. And Joe Buck's like the most avid golfer. He's a member of St. Louis Country Club, is seeding the McDonald's course. He's a member at El Dorado that's discovering land place in Cabo.

He's a member of Bel Air. We would get off tournaments where we work four or five hours and we go hit balls at a range, like at a paid range with off mats. He's a golfer and we have a blast. Well, yeah, but the buck thing is a separate issue. Like people decided before he even waited at a golf that they were gonna hate him calling golf.

And I've been a proud supporter of bucking a lot of regards in a lot of ways. But tell us about the golf course. You just bought up in Rhode Island that you're coming back from today. Right. So this is one of the other great Rhode Island courses, Deloross Design called Metacomit. Metacomit golf club, we changed the name from country to golf because that's what was originally named back in 1901 when it was founded.

So it's a course that is a small course, 110 acres or so, part 70. My dad's a member there. Still, he's 81. My father and I, Dorees, dad and mom have been members there for a long time. Their father was a member before that. So it was kind of the back then, the Italian or median club, kind of the power lunch place, only a couple miles from Providence.

It was maybe a little mafia, a little connected group there. And, you know, and all the clubs had a certain role. That was the Waspie club Aguam Hunt, which was close by Ross did that one in Legemont, which was the Jewish club. that one in Ledgemont, which was the Jewish club. There were all these clubs around and Metacomit was just golf and it was a really a social scene back there. It's follow on hard times in Rhode Island for a lot of reasons.

The population hasn't grown there. People are getting older that were members. It's, you know, same story. Same story. There was too there's too much golf. The church was built for Easter Sunday, wasn't it? So, how do we survive? That's what we're working on now, and it's challenging. And it's especially challenging now without a pool, you know, without tennis. Because those are the things that golfers, like, I don't want to lump you in the same category,

but we care about the golf courses in a place. But like families don't want to join places that don't have pools, that don't have, you know, activities for the whole family, really. So it is a factor. And as much as we don't maybe use them as golfers, it is a factor. It's a huge factor. And for a course like this, it's kind of landstrap. We don't have room to do it with 18 homes.

We can't just go, yeah, we're going to build a pool right in the middle of the parking lot. Yeah, that's not going to work. Nobody's going to want to go to that. What are some courses that you haven't been to that you're really dying to get to? Well, that's the one thing Bacon and I are talking about because we're going to Band of Dunes

this year for the USA, I've never been there. So I can knock off a lot of those courses. And you know, I have a couple of those lists, the top 100 lists. And I've played close to 80 of the top 100 classic courses, which is, you know, a lot just in the US are all over the world. US. Okay. I mean, it depends on the list to the time. They are always there. They're always all over the place. But I'm probably, you know, I don't know if I've seen more instructors or played more top 100 courses, but Crenshaw has probably been to more of the best courses

than anybody else, but I'd be close to playing more of them. You know, it was a sleeper architect, Tom, he's lead Janssen, he goes, he's going hunting around for some of these courses. Okay. So what's out there that you haven't? Other than banding? Well, yeah, I haven't been to San Valley. Okay. Yeah, to see San Valley.

I got to San Hills this year, which was cool enough that one off. I haven't been to Nova Scotia to play Cabot. I haven't played Royal Dornock in that sad because if that's the home of Ross, right. That would be one that I got to get to. And I've played most of the good ones in Australia. That would be one that I got to get to. And I've played most of the good ones in Australia, most of the good ones in Scotland and Ireland. But not all, I like all the little quirky ones. So there's a lot over there I gotta see too.

I hope we can keep this one in. I think this was a story you told one of our guys at the PGA show last year over some drinks, and I'm not sure if it can make it in. But I need to hear about the time where you hit something like eight porta-potties on the front nine while shooting in an absurdly low score. Well, I have been known to have an active stomach particularly in the mornings and particularly in golf competitive days.

And this was the view I've opened that one, I told you about where I won when the Andrades came back to watch me in the playoff. I always stayed with my buddy there, he and his wife were, he was the tennis pro at War with Kills, and we would stay out in the lake, we'd have beer and pizza almost every night. And I'm driving at the course, not feeling very good. And I don't know if it's because I had, I didn't know at the time maybe that I didn't like gluten or dairy and everything in there is not working.

And I was playing with Andy North and we get up and I'm like, oh my God. So I had filled my stomach with a modium. Do you know what that is? And or a low modal. I don't know. So anything to keep me from going. But I had the runs as bad as anybody could ever have.

And I'm certain that every other tour player would have withdrawn that day. No question. Because I think immediately after hitting my first t-shirt, I sprinted to a bathroom, played the next little sprint into a bathroom. And I went to the bathroom, to the portal at seven times on the front nine, and I shut seven under. Shut 29 on a part of 36. Every birdie you went and took a sh-

Yeah, every single one. And it wasn't just sitting there for a second, right? It was coming out. And they're hot in the summer, those places. So I was dying and I think I shot 30, 29, 30, I shot 65 and the funniest thing about it, I ended up getting lucky enough to win the tournament. But there was a doctor, a friend of Tom Kites that was an anesthesiologist, Ernie Katsiam, and he used to come and watch us play all the time. And he told me, he had the nerve to tell me that the reason I won is because I took those drugs because it relaxed me. And I said, well, I am never going to try and get that bad so I can win. There's a book here, Walter Hagen.

There's a great story when he won the US Open at Mendelotheian. He had Tomine Porter's in from me, Bad Lobster. And I show this to a lot of players that he said, look, I would never want you to have that case of Tomine Porter. But it made you stay in the present pretty good. You hit your shot, didn't care about where it went, you just went and hit and played again. Interesting. Great philosophy. Yeah. All right, well I got to let you go. I think we've only started this crash the surface. So my dogs crank. The dogs crank, yeah, you got an event to get to, you've

had a really busy day. So we really appreciate you letting me let me come down and do this. Awesome. I know you've been persistent and I've been, you know, just a huge thanks for driving. That's really the excellent of well, I'll do it again. We can do this however often you're available. Thank you appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks. Be the right club. Be the right club today. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. How about in? That is better than most.

Better than most.