No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 264: Playing the Top 100 Courses in the World w/ Simon Holt

Episode Date: December 4, 2019

We've all seen Top 100 lists. We've all dreamed of playing them all. Simon Holt has actually done, and he's here to tell us about traveling to the ends of the Earth to become the first Brit to play the Top 100 golf courses in the world. He explains to us how he got on all of the courses, his personal rankings, how the Golf Magazine Top 100 comes together, courses he believe should be on the list, and a ton more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

That's better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up Podcast. Different episode for you today. We're going to get to a conversation with Simon Holte here in a little bit. Simon is one of the few people in the world who has played all 100 courses on golf. I believe he goes off the golf magazine top 100 list. His list that he follows is the 2013 list.

I figured with the recent publication of the new top 100 list, the golf magazine list. It would be interesting to talk with someone who is on that panel, understands how the rankings work and has played every single golf course, not on the current list, but on the 2013 one. And we talk about some of those differences between the list. Let's change from year over year.

And he's about as unpretentious of a guy that I can imagine that you can find to speak on this topic. Plus, he's got a Scottish accent. So it's gonna be, you guys are gonna love it. He's an awesome dude. We're gonna be catching up with him here in April, hopefully in Scotland.

And I guess some great insights on playing golf around the world, how he's managed to get on these golf courses and some of the top experiences. Also some of the parts that are less clamors about it. I found it really interesting when I talked to him a few months ago about doing this, about some of the trips he was getting ready to take that he wasn't looking forward to, just because of all the logistics and the hard to reach places for some of the golf courses. Before we launch it real quick, I want to tell you guys about Quader by Travis Matthew that's CUATER.

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the top 100 golf courses in the world. All right, man, I got a task for you that I believe is probably harder than playing the top 100 golf courses in the world. It's, you got to talk to me about it for, I don't know how long it's going to take, but you got to come off and not sound like a complete douchebag. I don't know if you're going to be capable of doing that, Mr. Simon Holt. Well, I know it's a daily challenge in every walk of life for me, but I know you're sort of asking that seriously and it's quite hard sometimes.

It's like, essentially, it does end up being the name dropping exercise of all the courses that everyone ever speaks who's always dreamt of playing in me too. And yeah, it's a little strange, but it's cool. And it finished early this year, and that was kind of a relief in one way. I wasn't really chasing it out to start with as I'm sure will come to, but it was a great experience, and it was certainly fun along the way.

Well, let's go into that. I guess, you know, in talking to you and leading up to you, wrapping it up I was I was surprised and maybe I shouldn't have been at your I'm apathy's not the right word but lack of real enthusiasm to finish it out I would have thought you would have been really excited to do it It almost seemed like at the end it was a Checking the box kind of thing for you. So I want to let's get into that

When did you set out to do it or did you get like pretty far into the list and say, Oh, I'm actually, I'm on my way here. How did you, how did you set out to do this? Yeah. So I mean, people ask, Oh, when did you start doing it? And I was lucky as you know, grew up at North Bank. So grew up at this wonderful golf course that's, you know, just been rated, I think it's up to 37 now. As of yesterday and new golf magazine rankings. So I was really lucky to grow up at a place like Northbury first and foremost. So the first that was the first golf course I ever played. And so if people say how long it's really from the first day of play golf, which is you know, however long ago that was way of it to 25 years. But really earnest, I started about three years ago. Well, till the point I finished,

so maybe fall of 2016, I really focused on, okay, a few people were kind of baiting me about it, and I was just like, I'm just gonna get this done, and I sort of mapped it out, and it took me about two and a half years from that point to get the remaining, I was on 35 at that point, and it took me two and a half years to. Remain in 65 finished together to 100.

That's a lot of that's a lot of top 100s in a three year stretch. What how can you the question is going to be burning on everyone's minds. How the hell do you get access to play all these courses? Well, I always joke that you meet a guy in the locker room of the place before. So that doesn't really help anyone that's listening, but it's just such a small circle in golf as you work in golf on anyone that works in golf or we'll say it's a small circle. And it's the same in these clubs, especially like the US golf scene. Well tell us what you do within the golf industry as well. I think that'll help bring it together.

And, well, you know, with one of my friends, like we run a golf tour company. So, predominantly Americans that travel with us, 95% of our clients are American, and we're based in St. Andrews and Edinburgh. So, we have an office in Edinburgh now as well, which I'm sorry, right now. And, yeah, we like to think we do a really good job

at bringing people to Scotland and Ireland, and England on occasion where they ask which I'll speak about later is the most undermarketed golf destination as far as I'm concerned and I know you've heard it recently. And then we did a little bit of Australia and New Zealand and the winter obviously seasonally that works really well for us. But all the golf courses that we get people to are a public access golf courses, which is great. You know, most of the courses on the list, you can go and play, especially the ones in UK and Ireland and Australia and New Zealand. The US is a little more tricky. And so I was

possibly lucky growing up cadding at Northberg and and the old course I was at University at San Andres and just kind of meeting nice people, great people that were very kindly said, I when you're in the States, if you're ever in San Francisco come and let me up. So eventually I just started taking people up on all those very kind invites and it just kind of snowballed and I think being from Scotland, like living here in Scotland, growing up playing here and you know I'm a good day's not being too bad at golf then people you sort of stood out in the room a little bit so I'll be a say I don't know and this is about the name dropping starts I guess I'll be there we go yeah here we go everyone fast enough so maybe you're

at you know seminal and you're sat there and you're chatting with some people and your accent stands out and you're young relative to the rest of the crowd and like hey what with some people and your accent stands out and you're young, relative to the rest of the crowd. And like, hey, what you doing here and someone maybe tells you the story and they say, oh, well, I've got a buddy that's a member at, you know, next time you're in the hamstrings, I've got buddy that's a member at Shinnocomk, you know, just looked me up and he'll help you out there. And people would just always almost like, really willing to help. And I never asked. And I kind of sent myself a couple of rules on that as well. But yeah, well, are you the first, if I remember, are you the first British person to play

the top 100 courses in the world? Yeah. And that blew me away. So I think as of today, this, I think about 48 people ever that have finished a golf magazine, World Top 100 list. And the reason they choose that list is because that's the oldest world top 100 list. I think Gulf Digest started the list in kind of the 60s and these sort of lists were started is I think it was the 200 toughest courses in America. And believe it or not, courses like I looked into it, courses like Shinnecock didn't even appear on that list. Can you imagine like the 200 toughest ones about exactly. So then you fast forward and these less kind of became more and more professional for one of the better word, more

refined as time went on and Golf Magazine took up the mantle of the the first world top 100 rankings which has now been every two years. So anyway, 4748 people have done it. I was the 45th I believe, but the first person from the UK, which really surprised me, but then when you think about it, it's so biased towards America because it's an American publication. I don't mean that's wrong, but there's something I guess, you know, maybe 45, 50 courses that are in America. So for someone living in Scotland or the UK, that's a lot of trips to America to go and play off. And a lot of, like you said at the top two, the only real private ones other than maybe one

or two in Scotland and then maybe one and then I can think of in Australia, like the US is the only place that has places that you need an invite to. You know the rest of them, like you said, you can pretty much call up and that's what I think I've played more of the top 100 courses outside of America than I have inside just because it's just so much easier to get access to.

Yeah, it's funny. It's kind of a fun exercise for people like, because a lot of people, we all must have played a lot. And that's like going back to the conversation of how I started. Someone said to me, oh, they actually asked me to be a golf magazine writer about six, seven, eight years ago, because I just work in the industry I see a lot of golf courses and I played a lot of the seriously like big names And they said oh as long as you played 50 you can be a writer so I counted it and maybe it was like More sort of I had a really high concentration at top 25 and I'd only played 35 when I say only That that surprised me and that was what started to kind of quest if you like because I said well, okay

I don't want to be a rater applied the decline and I want to finish all top 100 without being a rater and by No, cold calls like all invitations all people I knew which kind of made it harder, but it felt like the natural way to do it. So you were never getting there by being a pest. People hopefully enjoyed playing golf at you and recommended you some friends, which was fun. Because any playing with great people all the time. Well, what's going to say is it is fun as it seems.

I guess you're setting out to do it. And again, you kind of grew up with this golf background and had access and played a lot of great golf courses before you set out to do it. But what was the journey like? Was it more fun than you're anticipating? Less fun, more stressful? Like, what is, how do you look back on that time? Yeah, I see it as a hugely fun exercise. I call it an exercise. It wasn't even exercise. I was just going to play golf courses, there's always a dream to play it. What's hard about that? Right. It did get to a point and you sort of alluded to, like, you know, you were checking Right. It did get to a point and you sort of alluded to it,

like, you know, you were checking boxes and some places I'll be honest, it did feel like that. And that's at the point where I pumped the brakes on little, I was like, what am I doing? You know, I remember being at Keira Islands and I was on my own and this is obviously a result course, it's busy, I was amongst a bunch of foreballs. And I had this really pleasant gentleman as a caddy, great guy. And we played for a whole, and it took about an hour and 10 minutes for foreholes. And I was ready to pull my hair and teeth out.

And I just wanted to work up the course. I was so bored. And I just thought to myself, what am I doing here? Because golf's about a shared experience. And also, the fact that I just pointed up the best part, probably $500 to play. I was like what am I doing here? And then he sort of picked up on that and he goes hey, you okay? I said, you know, you know, this is great company with you, but it's just slow and he says well, you know We kind of run the show here and I'm sort of the second Rossini Academy

Do you want to start playing three groups because I'll just say to the other caddies, we'll just play three. I was like, I'd love that. We played the rest of the golf course in one hour, 45 minutes. So we played the whole round in three hours, having taken an hour and a bit for the first four. So don't get me on to pace a play at these golf courses. But I don't know at that point, I did think I was checking boxes and kind of with a list

that I had and I have no I'm not shy about saying courses that had no interest in playing. So and that sort of directed me which list to choose. So I did the golf magazine list from 2013. I really had no interest in going to Thailand to play the course in Thailand and that's really in fact I've not visited the coast but enough people that had played the coast in Thailand that was on the list. It's Idao links I think it's how you pronounce it. I'm sure it's lovely, I'm sure the people there are lovely but the pictures that I'd seen and the people that had played there it said to me possibly shouldn't be in the list and it'd been to a couple other places that had let me

down too like you know Otabas, Jeans and Portugal, again, treated me like gold, played with a lovely man, but I was scratching my head as to why it was in the World Cup 100. So this new list that's just come out is refreshing because it seems to be a little bit more of a crowd-pleaser list in a good way. But yeah, it was great fun overall. Well, that's, yeah, you touched on a lot of things I do want to talk about. I don't want to necessarily start with the negative, but the, the list itself are very complicated.

Well, an easy one here with the new list that just came out. Do you fear a new list coming out and of course being on there that you haven't played? No, because not really like that. I'm generally not, it sound like, you know, whatever I'm saying this. I'm not really a botch checker. Sure. I did this because to take it back a little,

you know, grew up in a great place playing golf, went to St. Andrews, played the Ol' Course, you know, a lot being a student there, and sort of fell in love with it like, well, what makes a great golf course? And then I spent a little time working at the Renaissance Club at four great years working at the Renaissance Club in Scotland which was my first ever job in golf helping them with their membership side and I got to know Tom Dukes through that just

a little because he was doing some new holes there down by the water and the Scottish Open though was this year so I got talking with Tom and Kai Gobi and Eric Iverson and I just really got into it and then golf club Atlas and started so geeking out on that. And that's what really got me into architecture is like well where's a good place to start? And Tom was good enough, we played it in a fair together which he loves and he was good enough to mention a few places and with a confidential guide that he's famously written, sort of like the gourmet choice courses that you have to go and see.

And this is what I really like about the list, because that would take me to a location and invariably I'd go to play that course, but then I'd play one or two courses around it as well. And if it wasn't for the list, they'll maybe not go to that location. So do you know what I mean? So for the first time,

if you guys in the US, once upon a time, Murafields and he slowly had appeared on the list, for the first time probably in the 80s, I'm guessing Mirafield appears in the world's top 100. And American clients read that, and they go, hey, I want to go and play Mirafield. And when they're at Mirafield, the local states of them, hey, you've got to go

and play North Barrett down the street. So then they start playing North Barrett, and fast forward 15 years, then North Barrett starts to get on the list. So over time, the list get better and better and better. And I feel this one is at that point now where it's a really pure list. Well, what goes into making a list or, you know, these, every publication's got a different criteria and stuff, but it's not, it's not a bunch of people sitting around a room saying, oh, the Pebble Beach moves up this year and, you know, so and so, like, there's a scoring system with it.

What is it like for Golf Magazine and what, how would you evaluate that process? Would you say it's, it's strong. How would you tweak it if it's different? How does your personal ranking differ from that as well? Well, obviously, no, well, I'm very, I feel honored almost like ProVloge to be on the Rator panel and this, I think it's sort of 75, 80 on it. And we were given free rating. And there was no group thing in the way that, you know, you have to assess shop values. I mean, excuse my French, but what the F does is a shop value, you mean, really?

I get confused by all that chatter. It's when you're at a goal, I think they've got spread of people and I can read a few names out because it's published, you know, out of these names, you've got Tom Doke, Frank Casey Jr. that owns Ross and Panner and Ireland, the source of Mike Davis, you know, you'll tell that name Ben Cowns, you're up at Cabot, Kai Goldby, Gil Hans, Jim Robina, you know you've got some really really intelligent people in terms of golf and then me. But people would just let to go and say well this is what I think is good and then you rate it sort of you one through three. You didn't have to put you exact this is my one, this is my two,

this is my three, but you rate your top three, your four to 10, 11 to 25, 26 to 50, 51 to 75, 76 to 100. And then out with that, we had brackets of 50 from 100 to 150, up to 200, 200 to 250 and so on. If you're in the top three, then you got 100 points. If you're a four to 10, then you got 100 points. No, it's worth it. If you're a 4 to 10, then you get 85 points, 11 to 25, 75 points. So, Ron, who collated all the results,

pulled everyone's ballot papers together, totted it for the points, and that's what creates the rating. So, when you look at a rating, and it usually has like an average score, that's where the average score comes from. So Pine Valley, for example, is 94.52. And I think something crazy, like 57%,

which is understandable of voters, put Pine Valley in the top three. So almost impossible to not pine Valley off that top spot. Cypress of second and so on. Well, yeah, let's see, like how does your list compare to what came out with golf magazines rating? I mean, what are your top three?

Do you remember what you put in those top three? I would have to imagine you do. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, my top three were in Mirafield, Royal Melbourne West and Territi. And some of those are obvious some of them are pretty punchy shout so Tariety being so new but you know I just thought I'd be really really honest and at the end of the day it comes down to which courses you

really enjoy and it's all subjective and it's personal choice I've been lucky enough to play Tariety probably about seven or eight rounds so feel like I can sort of stand by that. Murefield have played a lot, and I love it. And I think, you know, the routing of the golf course is amazing. The variation's great. Roll Melvin the same way.

I just love the routing of the golf course. I love how it's kind of simple and it's designed, but you have to take on the trouble to be able to score well. So those are the courses I like. So they make you think a little bit. And that's what the part of the discussion that bothers me is like, you know, recently, Maginette and Alan Chippenick

like went to Australia and New Zealand and they made their personal list, which like looked a lot different than what our personal list looked like. And everyone's like, oh, look, these guys got it all wrong. It's like, no, man, like everyone's got a personal list. You don't have to follow what the order is on the rankings.

And I feel like at times that can almost affect your impression of a highly rated golf course is like, I know I'm supposed to like this. I'm supposed to like it. This is gonna be amazing. And if you don't play great, if you get bad weather, and it just doesn't hit you the same way, you end up thinking, wow, that was overrated

versus like, if you knew nothing about Shinnecock Hills and wrote up there and played it, you would be amazed by it. So with that kind of spectrum in mind, is there any courses you played that are highly rated on the list that you kind of locked away and being like, huh, I really don't see what they're talking about here?

Yeah, definitely. I'm in some places, wow. Some of the ones I mentioned earlier that are now not on the list clearly, something was going on before. I don't wanna speculate what, but, but they should have been. Well, you could,

listeners could use their imagination as to what was going on there. Other places that I've been to, and I'm clearly wrong, because everyone else ain't so great. Did I love Riviera? And by saying that right now, am I ever gonna be allowed back?

I don't know. You're wrong. You're wrong, you're wrong. I don't know that I love Riviera. I'm not saying it's not so well. I mean, we're talking about the best courses in the world. Sure. And for me, there's just, there's a patch there

in the middle, I think, I think four through 11, I love. And then a bit towards the middle, I think, I think 4 through 11, I love. And then a bit towards the end, I really like, there's a patch, I don't really love the starter reveal, once you three, I don't really love. And then there's a patch, you sort of feel like you're playing around the driving range, I don't love that section. But that's not to say I don't need to set up 100 cars in the world. It just, for me, it's not in the top 30, but that's just my personal preference. Which I think it's probably different than like this course does not belong in this realm, right? Definitely. I mean, I think I've joked with you about, you know, I have this phrase

top five, so if people say I wish you favorite course, I'm going, well, I've got top five and this 13 courses in my top five. So there could be five, well, there's literally 430 courses in the conversation for World Top 100 that we vote on. And there's probably even more than that, but at least the people who are voting for it, in this instance, are people who have seen enough of the very top quality to kind of know

what they're talking about. And certainly the golf course designers that know a hell of a lot more than me that I've just been lucky enough to go visit in these places, you know what they're talking about. And certainly the golf course designers that know a hell of a lot more than me that I've just been lucky enough to go visit these places. They've studied, made careers out of it, and they're the guys to really listen to. What if I was to ask you, what's a course you've played that's not on the list

has not appeared on a list that you think is mind-blowing that is not on any of these lists? What's the first course that comes to mind? In the top 100, I would say, I think Pete Street used to be on it, it's not back on it. I thought Pete Street was so good. I think I don't mind saying, I voted it. I think in my sort of 51 to 75 block, I thought Pete Street was fantastic and the routing of the golf course. And everyone always says, you know, that's where Bobby Jones wanted to take the masters to So you know they they built that place Thinking okay, we're gonna move away from Augusta if you can get your head around that

And have it there at Lanter because you didn't think it would be popular out at Augusta So therefore he has made a brilliant golf course. It's not implicit. It was gonna be great, but it is great I Love Yemen's Hall that's been named in kind of the next best 50. I think Yemen's Hall's fantastic, former-al-o-l-o-d people to me disagreed on that, but I think it's fantastic. I mean, if a Chicago golf club's ranked so highly, I think Yemen's Hall is like a Chicago golf club in a national golfing center of the South. And I just don't know why it doesn't get a little bit more love than it does.

If we're looking, yeah, okay, so that's one that's maybe that should be bumped up into the top 100, but anything else on there that's like 50th that you're like, no, no, no, this is a top 10 course in the world. The Amons might be your example there. Um, yeah. Well, no, the Amons isn't even the top 100, I think it's gonna be, but it's in the next 50, but thinking about the ones that I think should be much higher, I think, do you know what? This time I think it's about right. Okay. I really do think it's about right. A couple of courses have dropped down a little, I think I love Seminole. I had a

brilliant day there. That's always one that's talked about, you know, whispered because people are scared of a fending that it might have been ranked a little too high. And now I think it's about 34, 35, and I'm very comfortable with that. I'm not sure if that's comfortable with it being just outside the top 20. That's the feedback I feel like I've never been to seminal, but that's what I kind of hear. It's like, it's good.

It's not maybe in the deserved company of a top 20 course, what not. But we're really knitting picks here. But explain to me, I think I kind of understand where I think you might go with this, but Augusta Nationals ranked ninth on the list. And for a lot of people, that's the number one course in the world they'd like to play.

A lot of that may have to do with how hard it is to get an invite there. But can you explain why it's ninth? It's a spot behind Okhmat, which is, I would, I'd never been to Okhmat either, I how it how it fell for spots in the last year and I know there's a refresh to how the ratings were done and we'll get into some of that. But can you explain why Augusta would be ninth and then we can talk about your experience there. Yeah. Well again, I'd just like to reiterate, like, the difference between ninth and, you know,

what was it before, fifth, is not that big. Like, we are absolutely talking about them, very, very best golf courses on the planet. And it just so happens that the people have voted this time, because they don't know what everyone else has voted. We didn't even know each other's names until this thing came out. It just happens to have dropped down. I kind of have my theory on that, that, you know, the golf words got more to width and firm and fast, and Augusto, which in my mind

is the number one experience in golf, if you're lucky enough to go there, I think you'd be country, you'd be trying to be country's citizen up, but as a golf course, I would probably say, I think that's fair, maybe if I'm really going on a limb, maybe I would probably say, I think that's fair. Maybe if I'm really going on a limb, maybe it's in the 10 to 20 bracket for me. Is that because, you know, when people see this golf course every April, it is in the most pristine condition possible. But from what I've gathered from people that have played it,

you know, not during Masters Week, and I would think Monday after the Masters would be the best possible to win the media lottery be the best possible way to do it. But when you play it in this time of year in November or you know in the winter the greens aren't that speed. It's not in tournament condition year round and you play from the member T's which are 6400 yards and it's not nearly the same. I was going to say shot value but you made fun of that phrase. But is that kind of the going to say shot value, but you made fun of that phrase. But is that kind of the, the York takeaway from the August experience?

Well, I would say absolutely play from the member T's because, you know, you hit the ball a long way, a good player. So you can play from the back of you one, two, I'm never going back there. Well, there's, I meant there's no in between, right? There's no like 6,800 yard option. There's no 7,000 yard option. It's 64 or like 75. Yeah. I think I'm not sure of that really plays into it though because the people that are going I know what you're saying on it's nice to have something that maybe bridge the gap It was like a 16900. I would love that too But you just you just happy to be there truth be told I just feel that a few of the holes

It's a wonderful golf course, but a few of the holes They've planted a few more trees, they've tightened it up in places, and it's because they have this incredible golf tournament every year. But I, well, my experience, I've been very, very lucky to go there twice, and the place is in incredible condition. Like forget the fact that it's outside of the tournament, I'm not saying the greens run as fast, I'm sure the members would like to say that they do. I don't know that. I've not played in the Masters, but they were really, really quick. And the golf course was in impeccable condition. And I played it

in January, sort of end of January one year, and then the start of May one year, which is probably a good reflection, a good reference, because that reference because that was just a few weeks after the Masters. And it was an equally good condition. I guess, again, we're on very fine edges with a lot of the things we're talking about here. What I was referring to is some players I've talked to that go up and play it in December or play it a week before the tournament say, you know what, I've kind of learned there's no point to that because it's completely different golf course the next week. So I didn't really, I guess I still don't fully understand the difference between tournament

playing condition and non-t tournament playing condition or Augusta. But I have a feeling that people open up that list and say, what the hell? And that's where, you know, I don't take, nobody should take the ratings that seriously. But I think it's a good reflection if a list is showing a lot of volatility year to year because I think you can Look at it the wrong way and say well, what the hell did a gust of dude to deserve falling for spots? When I would counter that by saying like hey, maybe like a fresh set of eyes on these things and different people Which sounds like what was the case is a good thing and just sticking to what has always been highly rated You know that people might not have got it right when the first time these lists came out

So it's it's okay to see some volatility in it. If that's a, you know, if there's a different way that has been evaluated, do you see that similarly? Well, yeah, and the other way, I'm always a glass-out-full guy. And instead of people seeing it, it's like, oh, isn't it terrible? What have I got to run around with the drop-forced spots? And I know you're not saying that. but let's look at a different way. What's Oakmont done, or Royal Melbourne, or Royal County Dan, or National Golf Licks or Chinookock? How have they improved? How have they now more highly regarded as just as a pure golf course? Because none of the other trappings matter in this. How have they ranked higher? Oakmont cleaned out a bunch of trees, so Oakmont's wide open now in terms of the

vistas. It's still an extremely difficult golf course, but it's firm and fast, and those are the playing conditions. So the golf course is playing, that's the trend in golf now, is to sort of open things up, have firm and fast conditions, and for it to play like that. And exactly the same thing can be said as Shinnecock, you know, a National Golfing of America. I mean, national was nowhere near the top 10 in the world, you know, 20 years ago. Look how that's come up because they had this tree program to remove all the trees and widen things up. They don't have really tight, you know, contrive fairways. And that's not to say I guess that does, but they're definitely some holes that pinch in a little, for me, like 17 know on the drive it really pinches in now at driver length and that's contrived

It didn't used to be like that And you know seven you it's really wide open most holes and then you stand on seven And it's just really really tight straight hole I'm not sure what sort of options that gives you then just drilling one absolutely straight And that's fine for tournament play. I was going to say, yeah, that's exactly why you answer the question pretty perfectly. I think that what they've done to that course to make it play tougher for tournament play is probably factoring in part of the reason of why it

would be sliding down the list over the years. And that it's for amateurs, it's just, it's very, very difficult. And the old style of play was very different and much more designed for the members when it was, when it was, when it was built. But what's the experience like? I mean, we touched on some of the parts of it, but what's it like playing Augusta? Man, what's the story you tell when you talk about playing

at Augusta? You, you raved about the overall golf experience because I've heard different things on that you feel like you maybe are kind of walking on eggshells while you're there. So take us there from full experience to what it's like to play the course. Yeah, well, kind of like the more fun stuff. Everyone's kind of heard that. I wish I will tell, but it's more kind of a lead up to everyone's kind of got.

Everyone that Matt has done, you know, the silly thing of the top 100 has got a story of how it happened. And I was down in Florida at the, I've been down for the PJ show. And I was overplaying at the medallist, but yeah, I happened and I was down in Florida at the bin down for the PJ show and I was overplayed at the medallist, but yeah, I was in another lovely course in Florida with a great friend of mine and out of nowhere, this member that I know from Augusta called me and he played with me at North Brett at some of you before and you know, you don't solicit, you don't see anything that actually gets into you because they get that all the time. Maybe that's why I haven't gotten the call yet.

I can tell everyone I want to go. So he's like, hey, you know, I heard you're in Florida, do you want to come on to Georgia for the weekend? I'm like, oh, wow, it's finally happening. Wow, cool. And then it dawned on me that my really good friend that I was with also knew this member. But like, how do I break it to him?

I just got a call to go. And clearly, he kind of wasn't going. And I spent a day with him We played at the medalist we played a wolf game with a bunch of members of the medalist lost money And I was just dreadful I couldn't hit a shot and he goes watch the map with you today We're driving around the cars. I did I don't know how to tell you this. I got invited to play a guest down playing on Saturday And he's like, I'm so pleased for you. Did I did I like yeah, but I'm playing with Mr. X, who he knows, and I just thought, oh, that's really bad.

And he took it like an absolute champion because I'm so pleased for you. I'll get there one day, blah, blah, blah, buy me a hat. And then we ended up in Naples the next day, and I realized that I couldn't get a flight direct to Augusta. So I was like, wow, I might lose my clubs here. So I rented a car from Naples, Florida, and drove solid up to Augusta. So I was like, wow, I might lose my clubs here. So I rented a car

from Naples, Florida and drove solid up to Augusta. My 10 hours or something. I think I've stopped for 20 minutes for a restroom break or something. Just flying up the highway, just music blaring, I imagine. Yeah, and I got like the worst rental car in the world as well. So you know, the one that looks like they sort of Adams family vehicles kind of like a thome to the thing. So I got this card, I get out there, I actually stayed at Champions retreat the night before and they'd let me stay at the cottages because the member I played with lives in Augusta. So then it started to rain overnight. So I'm ready to go crazy on the hotel room that I'm staying and I just smash everything up

because he calls and says we're not going to play tomorrow. And he actually called and I was like really, and he's, yeah, he's going to rain. I was like, no, and what was great is he goes, oh, let's spend tomorrow with each other, we'll go to my late classes if you chose that have to do. And what was great about that is a got all of my gust of questions out of the way. So you know all the things you ask, you know the things not to ask, but all the things you want to ask about the tournament and his experiences there. I got those out of the way, so then when we played the next day, and the course was bone drive at that point because the sub-air

is sucked everything out, I just walked around in this days of like happiness with a big goofy smile on my face, and at the end he said to me, oh this is great, you didn't kind of talk away the experience, like a lot of people do ask questions about, oh I did lyrimize Chip from here, is that? Which is the cottage that Rory hid it into blah blah blah. And you know, I'm really happy for you. But that was only because I spent the day with him before. I would have been like a kid in this shop if it was not for all the questions. But yeah, it was super cool.

And then, so at that time, we played the course and then he goes come on Let's go and play the par three. So got to do that which was equally cool Obviously Dinner in the clubhouse and you see all the champions leave it a club on the wall in the dining room So Tyga's driver when he won in 97 is directly above or below our current memorandum, now exactly Trevor Realman's from 2004, I think it was a four in a moment one. Oh wait, yeah. Oh wait, it was a sorry, so.

And his drive ahead was huge compared to Tigers. Like in that 10 years technology just gone so far. Yes, it has gone a long way. All right, let's do some other golf courses as well. Why is Pine Valley the number one course in the world? And I know you didn't have it in your top three understandable. That is not no one has to is set to follow that list by By the letter the law, but why is it ranked number one in your mind? I think is if you're as objective as you possibly can be about golf course because we're all humans, you know, other stuff comes into it

There is just no weakles out there, but you go as a good player to play Pine Valley. If you're a slightly lesser player, you're going to have a really tough day. So for me, you want to go to a place where everyone can kind of enjoy it, which is what I love about the old course. You know, Royal Malvin, Tariety, that I mentioned before, that anyone can play. Why I think is the best course in the world is because people go there and you have to execute every single shot in the bag to play Pine Valley and play it well. So I can respect it and it's certainly in my top 10. For me, it's not my top three for that reason, but I know why everyone votes it because there

isn't a week-old out there. It asks you to do everything. The par three is a fantastic. The par four is a fantastic. The par five is a fantastic. It's an incredible condition. Yeah, that's my impression walking away from it was. This was not the most fun I've ever had playing golf, but this is probably the best golf course, if that makes sense. Absolutely makes sense, dude.

Yeah. Well, Terry, I'm glad to find a brother in arms over Terry Edie. I feel like I'm, you know, I, I, as going back on what I said in the beginning, like Ritt lists are all personal rankings are all personal. And it doesn't really matter when it comes down to it. But, you know, sometimes people ask us for advice on golf courses and ask us to rank golf courses. So I, I, I try to do as best I can, but pointing out like this is object, this is like

what I think about it. This is subjective, not objective. And I, the most, I kind of separate, you know, the categories like you mentioned as well. Like, old courses and new courses just need to be different categories. I think, how do you compare St Andrews to Terry Edie? Like, they're both my favorite, just a totally different experience. But I say Terry Edie's my favorite modern course I've played. So, I've mentioned on this podcast many times what my reasons are for that, but I say Terry, he's my favorite modern course I've played. So I've mentioned

on this podcast many times what my reasons are for that, but why is it rate so highly for you? I just think like, you know, it's such a great walk. Like to me, golf's all about the walk, like golf is all about the walk and the people you're with and Terry, he's just this incredible walk. And then when you get kind of really geeky about the design, it just has this lovely flow to it that nothing feels jar jared, you know, what your deem is kind of connect to holes fitting beautifully, you know, there's really nice elevation changes, there's great variation in the holes, like the third hole there, that great sort of punchball hole where you can chase it in and it feeds

down into the bowl. So like a good and weak player can play that whole. Then the very next door, you've got a short path for where someone like you, so like, you know, you'd be able to drive that. And for the rest of us, kind of, you have to navigate the bunkers. It's got really fun set of greens. I kind of really like the way that there's no real bunkers there. You can kind of, you know, it's, there's a lot of sand, but, you know, you can ground your club and, you club and they're pretty chill that atmosphere there too. I think if you're in a footprint, you just kind of kick it out in your place. So for the purist, I'm not saying that's the reason I really really like it. Purist will be rolling over or rolling the rise right now, but that's more about the

feel of the place. I suppose I'm talking about the course. It's just the variation. So you've got dog legs that go both ways. You've got a completely blind holes and usual for a lot of modern design. You know, on the 12th, they're kind of long puff ore where you hit over a rise, which is almost kind of mimics the T-shirt at 11 at Mirfields where you just hit blind over the top onto the fairway. The par threes are worlds. Par threes are really important to me because I feel when you go to a golf course, unless you're one of these guys who got photographic memory, a truly great golf course you can I can remember every single hole on, but I'm not one of these guys that can remember every hole in every course of other plays.

I do usually remember the set of par threes and I think the par threes that carry to a pretty special. Yeah, that's what you kind of touch on something there that I find, you know, it's hard to delineate between like the playing experience and the golf course, right? But like the second I stepped on that golf course, the ocean is like being piped in like through speakers. It's so loud out there.

It's so blue. The white sand and that scene and that setting was as like a beautiful of a setting as I've seen on a golf course. Now, some purists will say like, you know, it's the old argument against Pebble Beach if it didn't have an ocean, would it be in the top 10 or whatever. Like, how do you, do you even bother trying to separate out the golf course from like the overall experience

of being out of place? As a golfer, I'd be lying if I said I separated that experience and I don't care who you are, you're kind of lying. Yeah. Then like you turn up, if it's a walk on the water, is that better than a walk in the woods? Most of the time for me, yes. If you can hear the sea, that's a great thing. That's what I grew up with, so I'm used to that and I love that. But for me, it's more like the playing conditions. I want to play someone that's really firm and fast and I was just in career a couple of weeks ago and I played that South Cape owners club, which is just like jaw droppingly beautiful. And I kind of joined

with someone the other day, you know, we kind of seemed, you know, you have the golden age of golf course design. And I feel like we're in almost like the Instagram age of golf course design at the moment where every hole needs to be this incredible picture and South Cape can't oppose that off and I was lucky enough to play with the owner and he says lucky You're honest with me. What do you think and I said well visually it's incredible? In a compolt teeth and the playing conditions it needs to be firmer. I don't like the strike fairways That's my personal preference if it was faster that played a little faster I would love this place

I'd be full and ever about it. And he kind of, you know, slightly disagreed with that, but it says place whatever he asked me. And so I think to me it's more about playing conditions. If someone's firm and fast, I really get a kick out of that and see in the ball kind of roll around on the ground and you know, I went to play Somerset Hills about months ago to play in a tournament with a great friend of mine. And I played there a few years ago and I don't remember it being as good. And I think the reason why it was so good for me this time is because the superintendents really taken it to the next level. And those guys who got a big job on their hands and getting this firm and fast playing condition which is definitely in fashion at the moment thankfully thankfully, because that's

what I think most of us want. Did you have the crushed pistachios at the turn at South Cape? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I played with the odor there as well. It was like one of the wildest golf experiences I've ever had. He's about, I don't know what he is now, but maybe 78-year-old billionaire Korean guy that is like a fashion mogul and he takes his son protection very, very seriously.

But that course, I remember asking him, I was like, what was the most difficult part of building this golf course? And he said moving the graves, like they had to move actual graves to build that golf course. Yeah, I remember the other thing I really liked that was that kind of cementimmon, which is a cool acid you need to make this a thing. So I think it's after about the 15th hole you go in that you know the glass kind of teahouse that sort of shaped like the Titanic ship this before you play that incredible part three and that you brought out this frozen fruit or a staff brought out this frozen fruit in a bowl and I thought it was ice cream originally

in a set persimmon, which is this orange fruit, which is cool, and he didn't realize the golf connection with the word persimmon. I was like, this needs to be your thing, kind of like the burger dog, a limb pick, this needs to be your thing as a persimmon at this hole, looking at that awesome place. Well, that stretch of holes from like 11 to 16 at South Cape is as bowed as close to being to Cyprus as I've been or of course that I've played. Like that dog leg left Cape hole, the uphill Cape off. I think that's 14, maybe it's 15 there was absolutely sick, but let's go to Cyprus now. What is, I forget, sorry, was it in your top three?

Of course, is your rated? No, it wasn't. It's firmly in your top three of course as you rated? No, it wasn't I mean firmly it's my top 10 Okay, what is what makes Cypress point special what makes it number two on the list? And again the variation it's all about variation so and the flow and the routing of the golf course and It's just a magical environment So you're there and you hear all the sounds that we're just talking about about Tariety, you get that Cypress and Spade certainly towards the end of the round. I think what's really special about Cypress and I'm rehashing what everyone else has always said is the different

landscapes that you sort of, you know, you hit over the road to start with, which is pretty funky. And, you know, then you're sort of off sort of in that open land for a little while, then you're into the trees kind of, you know, when you get to about four and then the two back to about par-fives. I think there's just, there's a lot of, certainly in the trees, when you get to about four and then the two back to about par-fives. I think there's a lot of certainly in the day, like original holes out there, and a place that had drivable par-fours before they were fashionable. I just feel like the environment there is what makes it so special and that it gets people going, so unbelievably beautiful. So I think as soon as you walk in you want to enjoy it because of that. And then the golf and the green complexes especially just kind of really blow you away and

exceed all expectations and never spent. What was the hardest course of all of them to get on? The hardest goal of all of them to get on is what I didn't get on. So I originally sat out to do the 2017 list and I've made this rule that I wouldn't cold-could anywhere or email or anything like that at all the introductions and I quickly realized that I was never gonna meet someone from Kerry Packer's family so Elisthen and Australia. That's what I thought might be yeah. I mean I didn't even try because you know whatever when you're gonna stumble across someone that's a family? For those of you listening that don't know about us, that it's owned by the pack of family in Australia,

and billionaire, and I think he's passed away, but his family has a penalty incredible course about six hours north of Sydney. So no, sure one day it may be happened, but it spurs out the causes that are more I didn't meet someone at Kamaga for quite a while in Cincinnati we sort of leads on to the crate actually like if it can sort of go off in a bit of a tangent it's about sort of the trips they have to take like geographically to be able to play the top 100 you kind of do all these clusters so you can sort of do the Long Island trip the San Francisco trip the LA trip and on. But then you come to all these courses in the Midwest or, and you guess, the Central

US, you know, you've got Southern Hills. So I did this crazy trip where I flew from Edinburgh where I live to Tulsa, landed, played Southern Hills, drove, stayed in Hutchinson, Kansas, played Prairie Jones, drove, stayed in North Platt, Nebraska, which is an interesting place. Workup in the morning, drove an hour, arrived at Sand Hills at the same time that I left North Platt because you kind of crossed the timeline, played there, got in the car straight after drove five hours to Denver, got on a plane to Milwaukee, rented a car, drove an hour up to the western streets, slapped, woke up, played Western Strait, drove two and a bit

hours down to O'Hare and Chicago, dropped the car, flew from there to Columbus, played the golf club, drove up to Toledo at high on played Inverness, drove to the airport and flew home from Detroit, and that was like seven day trip. Oh my god. I mean that's when you do get white line fever and you completely lose your mind and you're insane. And I'll be again, brutally honest, there's only so much of the golf course architects you're actually taking at that point. I was going to say that has to diminish the experience, at least a little bit.

I forget when I saw you last, but I think you were getting ready to embark on another crazy leg, like a hard to reach leg and that's kind of the underrated part of this. You kind of had to tick off a lot at once. If I remember right, it was something like you were flying from Scotland to Dubai to China or something like that. Do you remember this leg of the trip? Yeah, that was actually a great question, because it's another one. So that trip, I just talked about, I dubbed it the mop-up trip, because no effort together, it would just be mopping up.

Then the one to China was to play Shankin Bay on Hainan Island, which is actually unfortunate, it dropped out. And I think it's a really great cultural course down there in China, very, very private. And something to do with the government, one of the holes you can read up about it, one of the holes is known there. So anyway, a flu, it was actually from Edinburgh through Charles de Gaulle in Paris, at a flu to somewhere in China, then reroute it down, played there, then a great experience to the

next day, a flu to Korea, and plays nine bridges the next day I flew to Korea and played nine bridges the next day and that is actually nine bridges hand-on-heart is one of the courses before I went there I thought there's no way this course should be in the list blah blah blah blah blah you know there's no way this course in Korea should be the top 100 and I was pleasantly surprised when I played it I'm not saying it should be top 50, which I think it used to be, but it was a way way better golf course than I thought it would be. And a lot of the players that played the tournament think it's fantastic as well.

It's cool if you get like a windy day, you know, the fairways are wide. If it's soft, like you, like we've been talking about, it's kind of lame. But if you get a windy day with some crosswinds, I got really wide fairways and some cool holes out there. It's not. It was way overrated at 41 or whatever it originally came out at. But now it has fallen 50 some spots with the new rankings. But I don't hate it in the top 100. It was not a top 50 course. But I agree. I think it was it was catching a lot of flack for being the high on the list. I think there are probably some shenanigans that are involved in that, but I'm fine with it way, way down the list. Yeah, me too. I think it's in the conversation at least. So I'm happy to still see you there.

But then after that, I flew to Japan and I played Flue into Kobe. And there's just kind of a funny story they'll tell you another time about the gentleman that I was with. But I was with this Dutch guy called Dick Homer, a spelt gomma, but pronounced Homme for that. I met playing golf with it role-hate. And this is a great thing about golf, right? I met a 57-year-old guy who never met my life. And then I bumped into him a year later in Scotland. And I said, oh, hey, I'm going to do Korea and Japan,

this winter in October, November. Do you want to come with? I'd literally met the guy for four hours ever before in my life. And he came with me. And we had this amazing trip. So we flew into Kobe and then I'll try and do his Dutch accident. He's like, hey, Simon, you know, in Scotland, you're driving left and Japan, the driving left. So you get the drive. I was like, yeah, thanks very much. So we hire this car and we drive and we play Toronto and Narou, which is Starnk who's a top-runner of course. Then we got the plane, we played Tokyo and we played Tokyo

golf club that just been redone by Gilhans which I thought was really cool and unfortunately just dropped out I guess not enough people have been there since it's been redone. Kawana which I thought was great and where else did we do there? I'm thinking somewhere. I play Joe Kahama, which I thought was sad. And then I thought to myself, you know what? I'm never gonna get on the Salister place. So let's look at the first list without Eliston on it. And it was 2013, or the most recent list, and it was 2013.

And if it changed to that list, I would only have to play a couple more courses. But unfortunately, one of them was Royal Adelaide, which is obviously in Australia, and I'd already kind of cleaned up Australia in New Zealand, but I just had to swallow it, and I literally got on a plane from Japan, from Tokyo, to Adelaide that day. And to play Royal Adelaide, I ended up playing with the captain. I'm really got a dick because I love the club, the captain, the company was great, Alston McKenzie course, what's not to like. And then I got on a plane and this is very crazy again because I changed that list. The Durban Country Club in South Africa was not list. They were

like, well, given I've come this far, I might as well fly from Adelaide to Durban South Africa. I flew from Royal Adelaide, haven't been there for one day, and then flew to Durban Country Club, or Durban in South Africa for one day, and put this together by email, because you can pay and play there, and they found out it was from Scotland, so they're like, oh, the captain wants to play with you. I was like, oh, cool. So then I had what was called the email politeness tug of war. So this guy's like, you have to come stay at my house. So it's like, you know, Sarah, that's very, very kind of you, but I don't know you.

I couldn't possibly, and then I ended up doing it anyway. So I went to stay with this guy, and we got ham, it's that first night. Yeah, it's such a great one. And then we played golf the next day in the pro-joiners, and we teed off at eight in the morning. We whipped round the three hours, and there are a bunch of people for bizz in the club as afterwards,ers and we teed off at 8 in the morning, we whipped round the three hours and met a bunch of people for beers in the club as afterwards, some of which I'm still in touch with and they're coming over to

Scotland and we're gonna play like a match against my club which will be fun. But then I just flew home so my trip was Scotland to China one day, to Korea one day, to Japan for about five days, then from Japan to Australia for one day, from Australia to South Africa for one day and Japan for about five days, then from Japan to Australia for one day, from Australia to South Africa for one day, and then flew home to Scotland from there. So that was the craziest one, my friend. Unbelievable, man.

Do you have any estimation on how much money you spent doing this quest? I'm, my fun answer to that is it cost me a pair of earrings from my wife. I can't believe it. She sounds like a pretty great wife. If you were to, I guess, give advice to anyone that kind of wanted to play a lot of golf courses in the world or kind of just at least, you know, a lot of people dream of playing these places, but and they, I'm sure

people come up to you and say, like, how do you get on all these courses? But what's an overarching piece of advice you could give people if there is one? I would say like don't get too hung up on it like if you really really want to focus on it, they pick one list and stick to it. I think that's really good advice and then as you kind of get into what I call the nervous 90s, you then you can say okay is there a bad way to do this. So if a new list comes out, don't be too precious, so I'll be a pride. If a new list means you're like three courses closer, and then just switch to the new list, it's no big deal. No one's going to hold you to task for it.

You're doing this for fun. I'm saying not even for list seekers, but like somebody that's played two of the top 100 and is like, man, I would really like to play some of these world-class golf courses. How does, you know, me off the street get to get on some of these places? Unfortunately, there's no easy answer to that. Right. The private clubs, it's just, I'm just very lucky to meet some wonderful people.

I guess just be yourself and if you're fun to play golf with, which I hope I am, but if you kind of play fast, play with anybody, you're social after the game, you keep in touch with people. I always write a lovely thank you, you know, I always, if I'm hosted somewhere, I always take, you know, invariably a bottle of whiskey if I'm coming from Scotland or I'll offer to pay for the host Cady because maybe they've come out here or she's come out specifically

just to host me, they might not play that day. So I guess that's a good way to think about it, there's just general etiquette that I think is really important. So write in a nice handwritten, thank you afterwards, I think goes a long way. And then people all look to help you out if it's a thing you really want to do. And that's what I feel like I've learned along the way too is places that, you know, obviously we're extremely fortunate that we get some decent access to a lot of places, but people's willingness to extend hospitality and the hospitality element of golf, right? We're not all members, but some members of really nice clubs

almost feel like it's part of their duty as member of that club to share these places with other people. And not every club has that mindset, but I'm wondering if you kind of felt that along the way. Oh, definitely. People are very proud. And we're all kindred spirits, right? There's not many people that I've really met through golf that I don't like very, very few. I could count on one hand, I think.

I could count on two, but yeah, continue. But those people don't usually hang around too much. So that's true, both the golf industry and the club club game of golf when you go around hanging out of clubs, every club's got a handful of those guys granted. But once you're in a certain circle of friends and you're being introduced to people, they're not going to introduce you to a bad guy. You're always going to end up with good people. And golf's this kind of wonderfully reciprocal game that I'll host anyone that I know through a friend who wants to come and play at my course, I'll happily host them. You know. If someone like Vatchis for someone and they're like, oh, they happen to be

in your corner of the world, for whatever reason, the T-sheets fall, can you take them out for me? I'm always happy to do that. And I guess if you sort of pay it forward in that way, then good things happen. I think that's what's so wonderful about golf. You can play with anyone of any gender age, handicapped, but as long as you're the same kind of, let's go and have fun mindset, you'll get along with most people. Yep, now that makes sense. Made it this far in, can you just please just, are you willing to just trash one course on this list? Well, someplace that rub you the wrong way or something like that. Let me think about it.

You know, to quote Sean Connery, I like to, well, Sean Connery, Joe Kimmeran's got a gentleman never tells, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Look at it. The list I've got it in front of me. This new list, so I could refer to it. No one, everywhere's been super polite. And I'm not just saying that everywhere's treated me like gold that I've been to. It would certainly be very unkind for me to say that I've a place that I've ever surfed with me. I would say of a cause that I paid money for though, like a big resort cause.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, they've all treated me like gold. I'm looking through it now. I mean, a couple of the ones I mentioned earlier, I feel bad because again, I was treated really nicely there. You know, paid by money, played, had a a great time like Otavis June's and Portugal it shouldn't have been there and some other causes that have dropped out of the list probably shouldn't have been there either but you know sort of keep those names to myself that's the one that really stuck out to me on the trip that was like wow what is this dude? And anywhere in this list.

No, that doesn't make sense. But do you have the people treat me really well? I will. Do you have one favorite go-to memory from all the whole quest? Probably finishing, in terms of what I focused on the quest and finishing it more funtain. But things like driving in at Sand hills, that's a really special drive. People talk about Magnolia Drive, you see that every year on TV, driving into sand hills is unbelievable. I mean you just see golf halls everywhere, like once you could scratch up a piece of paper yourself. But I would say finishing at Moorfontaine was really special because I had two really great friends with me

that came to Paris to finish, that was with me and that was really special. But I guess if I had one round left to play, it would always be North Barric. That would probably, I've been so lucky to grow up there. So lucky. I was getting right to ask, if you had of all the top 100s,

if you're playing golf tomorrow and you get to pick anyone and you could be transported there, it would be Northberg. Well, I've ever had 450 grand New Zealand maybe, Terry, you see, but... Yeah. And I've brought, yeah, Northberg will, if I get to choose, Northberg will be my final round of golf without question. And if I had one cause to play every day for the rest of my life that would be North Barric without question I can echo that sentiment. Are you willing and able to tell the Tom Doke story from you guys playing North Barric together? Yeah, okay

I've forgotten about that. I have forgot, forgot this story. I love this story. Well, you might not hopefully come across this way, but so yeah, Tom's building new holes are in A-Sounds and like I said earlier, he loves Northberry, so let's go play this afternoon if you want to, you know, and the real secret behind that was I just wanted to hear his comments on the course, but anyone that's met Tom, like if you get him on topic, he's, you know, talks and talks and talks about golf courses and his database, he's incredible in his mind, like his memory. He's maybe not the most generous with his words in other situations. He's not, you know, he's not a chatty guy.

So we go and play North American, Eric Iverson and Kai Goldby, two of his associates who are really highly regarded Kim Play 2 and they're really that bit more like me and I really are really jattied and we're having a great time. And Tom's not really said anything and we're on the 12th hole which is my favorite hole at North Barric not necessarily the best, I just love the hole. And I just said out loud I was like oh this oh, this is pretty much my favorite home of golf course. And Eric and Kai very kindly sort of churned in and said, yeah, I think it's really good too. There's this, whatever.

Tom still said nothing. And then we get to the 13th tee, which for anyone that's played North America, because I know that you'll know, but for others, it's our famous hole called the Pit. And it has a wall that runs kind of of almost ace the metric across the length of the green that people say cuts in front of the 13th green that's called the pit. So we're all just having this great time and Tom's not spoken for like an hour and he just stands there, looks straight ahead and in the almost just like monitor and voice he just goes, this is pretty much my favorite hole in all of golf. Here's like, I don't know, sorry Tom, I know you're listening, but, well,

probably, but it was almost like a machine just spitting it out because he'd not spoken for an hour. And then all of a sudden he just opened up and he just started talking about the back nine at North Bearc and we went for, you know, beers and some food in North Bearc afterwards. And he was so kind with his time and he just sat there and talked about what makes North Berk great. Really without me asking questions, but it was so funny at the time how he'd not said anything and then he threw out this huge statement that is like his

favorite part for, I think he said, or favorite hole in golf was the 13th in North Berk. And Eric and Kai and I kind of all looked at each other just kind of nodded and we're like, okay, that's a pretty good deal. That's what I love about it the most is like that for somebody that's, he has seen like legitimately almost all of the golf courses and for him to call it his favorite home and go on that being almost the only thing he said all day was that I'll just never forget that story. I love that story. It's pretty, it's pretty funny, but the other funny stories is like,

you go to places like Sunnydale, like the halfway hurt of Sunnydale, I always have a good chuckle about it. It's famously at Sunnydale, you have a sausage and you can almost call it the sausage after 10 at Sunnydale and they have a sausage convener that I give a sausage committee that chooses the sausage that they serve.

And they always have this like really imagery of some guy walking around London, handed out a business card that his name's like, I don't know, you know, DJs, the sausage convener, a selling dollar golf club. And there's like funny quirky stuff like that is like the interesting things about these places that you visit. Oh man, I feel like we could do a whole other second part of just all the cool little, random things you've seen in a lot of places. But I think you've done it. I think you've gone an hour without sounding like a douche talking about the top 100

golf courses in the world. And it's a topic that I'm sure you get asked about a lot, but I think our listeners will really enjoy hearing the stories from the road and how you did it and perspective on golf courses that we all love chasing so thanks Simon for the time and We'll be seeing you here in a few months in April. Yeah, we'll see you over in April and send Andrews with a conflore to that and have another the refugees over It's gonna be a great time. Cheers, man. We're looking forward to it. Okay Be the right club today. Yes!

Ready? Yes! That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different.