No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 270: Cameron McCormick and Corey Lundberg

Episode Date: January 8, 2020

At the Altus Performance Center at Trinity Forest, we tracked down Cameron McCormick and Corey Lundberg to discuss the golf swing, how they teach it, Cameron's first time meeting Jordan Spieth, how close Jordan is to being back, how they relay information to their professionals, and so much more. We've really enjoyed working with these guys over the last year, and pumped to get the chance to pick their brains. Thanks to both Cameron and Corey for the time.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah! That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different! Well usually when we have a lot of fun, we have to be more excited. Better than most!

Expect anything different? Well usually when we have two guests on, I have to like try to direct question, like try to say like get I voice identification here but do different accents just makes it totally easy. But most of the time people confuse me for an American. Well that's what I wanted the first question. And I was like to destroy you. Your accent. Yeah. Can't remember a core m and Corey Lumberger here

with the Alters Performance Center. But how much do you get a lot of shit for your accent and my hybrid accent? Because sometimes I'm like, is the American? Is the Australian? The answer is it depends. It depends on what I'm doing. Like, if someone's watching the TV show

that I do for Golf Channel, then they'll be confused. Is the Australian? Is the English? Is the American? If they're in a lesson with me Then it depends but if I'm talking to Australian I sound like a what they would call an Australia a dinky die Aussie. So dinky dies legit. It's yeah Dinky real. Yeah, so we did a study tour with crooked Australia

And we had all these coaches come in. They're kind of like hard like Aussies and then Karen starts talking to them I'm like who the hell is this like he got like this real like serious Australia accent all of a sudden. Oh, yeah, it changes when you go home fully blown Aussie. Yeah Well, what brought you to the United States? How did you get here? What's your what's the what's the background story here for those that don't know? Yeah, go to high school was in all these Aussie rules football player and What part of Melbourne Australia? Yeah, right the same area the President's Cup was just held in. Yeah, grew up Melbourne Australia, Azirals football player and everyone around me

was growing up bigger and stronger faster than I was and I started playing golf at age 16 and at age 17 I cadded on the Australasian PGA tour. For two guys just graduated and came down to cut their teeth on tour down there and they were both Americans with a win to Texas Tech. And I didn't know, pre-ing in at days, it was an opportunity to go to school and also play a sport you loved and they told me about it and then connected me with a couple of coaches over here. So in 1991 I

came across as a 19-year-old and entered a junior college in Kansas. So I came to play college golf, played two years at junior college and then went to Texas Tech, given the initial connection that I had. And three years of tech met my wife, my senior year, and now American citizen. And Corey, what's your first interaction with Cameron? How did you guys meet and how did you guys end up working there? He doesn't remember. He acts like he does remember. We played golf together one time when I was an assistant, like assistant golf professional here, which is where how I started out of school.

Truth be told, he was a cop boy. That's right. Yeah, I was. Absolutely. Aspirations to get into this program, which is maybe speaks to why he didn't remember playing golf with me. But we kind of, camera's 10 years older than me. And he was just further down the path of coaching.

And I was, we kind of went through a lot of the same educational pursuits. And so we got to know each other a little bit. And he was definitely dominating the Texas market, and especially junior golf at that time. And so I sought him out, and we kind of, a friendship blossomed, and definitely came out of, you know, selfishly, my desire to learn more and from a mentorship and then, like I said, became good friends and we started all this four years ago, the opportunity to kind of team up and to be partners and, you know, like you guys, we want to do stuff that we like doing with our friends and my friend, you know, happened to be the best golf coach in the world. Quite a place to come to work every day at all. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's been a fun little ride that we've had, for sure.

We'll have some video stuff that'll be coming out in the future from some stuff we show on this trip here, but you guys also have your own podcast. You do what's the, what's, if people go to your podcast feed, what are people gonna find there? Yeah, so we started it because at the end of 2016 or 2017. In 2017.

In 2017. Yes, we started, if you, I hope that your videos have some b-roll of what's on the wall to our right here, which is the banners of all the major championships and USDA championships. And there was a period of time where a lot of that was happening, a lot of winning was happening at the same time. And so we wanted to make sure that we knew what was in the water to where we should we could sustain that. And so we had a bunch of interviews with the players that we coach just to try to identify some commonalities.

What are we doing? Well, that we need to keep on doing. And then out of that, we're just some unbelievable stories that our players told that with their permission, we later said, all right, we're gonna make this into a podcast and share it. And so we kind of cut together some of those interviews and then continued on and we're talking to players and coaches

and even authors, just anybody that's an expert has something, some kind of commentary on high performance and how to pursue it and how can we decode that and help others on their journey. So that's the idea. Give us a taste of who you work with. I think Jordan Speeth is probably the one you guys are best known for working for, but a lot of,

a lot of, every time I come here, I'm like, oh yeah, forgot they work with that guy too. That girl too, who are the names of stick out or the professionals you work with in top amateurs? Yeah, professional tours. Jordan Speeth, Bo Hossler, Kramer Hickock, Daniel Berger, across the ladies, Soyeon Yu, Sandra Galle, Mee Young Lee,

Celine Boutier. Yeah, Andre A. Provod on the European tour and then Harry Higgs on PGA tour and Charlie Sachsen. And then, you know, a lot of our clients, let's say, 99.9% of our clients are pursuing some level of competitive golf. Whether that be a youth golfer trying to get a college scholarship or college golfers or Those in the very early stages of their professional career. So that's kind of what we're immersed in

How different is a practice session a training session in here with the top players the guys that are playing on the PGA tour Versus the guys playing on the developmental tours versus the amateurs that haven't even turned pro. If I'm walking in off the street and I'm viewing those sessions, what would I notice that's different about them? You wouldn't notice much difference in the sessions per se unless you saw two players at totally different stages in their competitive season. So let's say that you saw a developing youth player that's playing in high school, playing age, age, age, events in the middle of their competitive season, and you saw one of the professional clients, you wouldn't notice a difference in terms

of what we're doing other than addressing those specific needs or errors that the person is presenting with, but you would see a much greater level of ball control. And that's clearly what differentiates the best in the world from those that have aspirations to be best in the world. What's the difference with... let's take Jordan Speed, for example. He has been the 10th ranked player in the world before and he's been the first ranked player in the world. What's the difference between the 10th ranked player and the world and the first? Take a stab at it, Corey.

Well, like what is he... There's not. I mean, if you look at the top 10 players in the world right now, I think at least six or seven have been the number one player. I think maybe John Romain, maybe Cantley are the only ones that have not. So when did they get hot? When did they play their best golf? And then no one is exempt from the ebbs and flows of competitive golf.

And did you play really, really well at the events with the most ranking points? And everyone has those runs. Right everyone kind of has those runs. Like right now Brooks is kind of on those runs. Well, there's going to come a time where it's not as easy as he makes it. It has for, it's happened for everybody. And so those top 10 golfers, they're interchangeable. I'll ball pocket for you and go with the difference

seen, the 100th rank player in the world versus the first ranked player in the world is one stroke per round, but you can fact check that and scoring averages. The difference between the 50th rank player in the world versus the 100th rank player in the world would be into the tune of maybe a half stroke, and so when you get to the difference being 10th and first it could be as little as 10th of a stroke. And then looking at the the the conversation between the 50th and the top 10 is probably more interesting conversation because then you have to figure out figure in which tournaments they're playing in. So what kind of opportunity they have and I think that camera and I think you degree that the difference in maybe those top 20 are just how consistently they're finishing very, very highly.

So there's maybe a consistency. Sure. The answer in there. What do you say to a player that is just red hot? Like, when Jordan, you know what I mean? Like, you just keep not washing, washing, rinsing, repeating. Well, that's what I wonder is when someone is red hot, are you trying to, in that time period,

are you trying to get them to understand what is making them red hot, or do you want their minds as clear as possible? Minds as clear as possible and you're still trying to solve problems. You're still looking for is there a tenth of a stroke here is the term of a stroke there even within the context of an amazing run whether that run is the normal run for a pj2 or player getting hot for four to six weeks and they make their entirety of their PGA 2 or player getting hot for four to six weeks and they make the entirety of their, well, the 75% of the seasons earnings in that time frame, or whether it's the guys that scale the world rankings moving from 200th to the top 10, when they might play well for

a period of time that might be 12 months. In those phases of performance, you still have ebbs and flows. You still have peaks and valleys within each skill set of putting and greenside play and approach play and driving. So you're still solving problems, but the problems are most of the time easy to solve and very nuanced and obvious. What is, if you're watching one of your players on TV, how well on TV can you tell, like, oh, that's not going right, that's not something. Can you tell when you're watching something like, hey, I know he's not doing that right.

I can't wait to talk to him after the round. How obvious is it, or do you need to be visiting seeing it in person? You can't replace being there in person because you have context, at least a great of context, and you do have on TV. You've got the events that are happening around you, other players, what you hear, what you see,

what you feel in the weather conditions. And you also catch conversations. Conversations happen to be in player in Catti. Conversations happen between player and golf ball, with a little hood. And yes, so there's information that you can't pick up on that can be beneficial. But still, when you're watching on TV, you know a player just like, almost as well as they knew themselves, you can pick up on the nuances that become conversation points.

How do you think the player coach relationship kind of starts? Meaning like how do you pick a player? How does a player pick you? There's so many players out there. There's so many coaches out there. I'm curious how the bonds kind of get forged. I tell yourself here too. I just look up and down the range every tour of Van Eyegots and end up business cards.

I mean, how tips? How else are you supposed to do it? You don't even need the business card. Just start coaching them right down the line. Corey slips some hundreds, I think. Whatever it takes, I think that we have somewhat of a reputation. So we're going to attract players that are kind of aligned philosophically. And I think that as more people know what we do, that we just attract a certain type

of player. And so I think that it would be weird if someone that came to us that was just totally off of just agreeing or in agreement with how we do things. That would be weird. I don't think that would happen very often. So I think that's how it starts. And then obviously from there, when you have those

similarities, it's a little easier to get along and kind of mesh well together. It's definitely a flow that comes towards the coach versus the coach going out and actively recruiting players. As far as I'm concerned in my experience being around other coaches and what is described earlier, it couldn't be further from the truth. My presence out on tour is hopefully one that people don't recognize me and don't know that I'm out there.

And when I'm walking with Tiger Woods and Ricky Fowler and Justin Thomas and Jordan Speeth in the US Open Practice Round Group Republican Beach, I'm 50, 60 yards away from the Player Cady and I'm only walking in when I'm absolutely necessary when I've got something to contribute that I feel like Is going to be beneficial? So I guess if you hold players that are on the PGA European or LPGA tour They might even say, well, Cameron's kind of a luth, he kind of sits across to the side and doesn't say much. And there are a number of coaches that walk like that and talk like that and behave like that out

there because they recognize there are place, they're not in the mix and they're not trying to be part of the show. So that's how I treat that. And if that means that I may not garner the business that otherwise would have been so big. All right, a really quick break here. I have to update you guys on something. I mean, almost everyone has been asking me coming up to me in the street saying, solid, when are you going to put a new putter in the bag?

You had that same Odyssey putter for like two and a half years. It's time to make a change. Chad at Calloway before he left us was desperately trying to get me in a new putter and I just had to let you guys know. I've made the change. I've done it. I've seen the light. I put the Odyssey Stroke Lab 10 putter in the bag to start the new year. It's a putter that Odyssey released towards the end of last year and in its first week on tour it was the most played Odyssey putter model. It just says a lot because of how many models that Odyssey has. Phil's put it in play a few times, Dylan Fratelli's been using it, and a hoist of others

have it in the bag. I got to admit, I didn't really know what Stroke Lab technology was until I helped... Somebody explained it to me, I'm not going to try to relay it to you, but the important piece to know is that the technology in it helps improve the consistency of the face angle of the putter at impact. And that's what I was actually really struggling with. The ball was just coming off, left sometimes coming off right, and it's a putter that I wouldn't, the look of it isn't, it hasn't been the most appealing to me in the past until I actually

tried it. I'm not going to pretend to understand all the technology behind it, but I'm totally sold on it. I've been shooting some pretty good scores here in the first week of the year, and my confidence on the greens has skyrocketed. So for more on the Odyssey Stroke Lab 10, visit odysseygolf.com, again, that's odysseygolf.com.

Now let's get back to Cameron, McCormick, and Cory Lumberg. So correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I would think that has to be an inflection point for a coach, right? Where eventually things start to become inbound more than more than recruiting. Oh, sure. So take me to, when did that inflection point happen for you? Yeah, I stopped hunting and started just farming the insubordinate when.

Or talking, you know what I mean, take me to like the earlier days and what that was like. Yeah, so different levels. I started receiving more in balance. I remember a kid that played AJAG A. Level Golf. He was a separator, but he wasn't one of the best. He started getting invitations. And his name doesn't really matter because no one would know him these days.

He's not playing anymore. But he started playing in invitations and playing really well. And that in the local community of Dallas Fort Worth here started to bring these in bounds in. And then one of those in bounds was 2006 when Jordan's dad called me and said, hey, can I bring my son by?

He's pretty darn good. And never had much instruction, if any at all. And I want you to take a look where in the market for a coach. And then he started winning invitations at 14, 15 years old. And then it was just a flow of junior golfers from that point. And I think if we look back now, five of the last nine US junior champions have come through my coaching and also performance here.

And then that turned into professional ranks as he grew and I had other professional players at the same time. So, it kind of happens in phases. Yeah, you can't expect it to coach the best junior player in the country of the world. And that for that to bring in professional clients. But as soon as you get a successful professional client, then that can change things. I'm sure it's a story you've told a bazillion times, but I had to talk to me about the first lesson with him. What your first meeting with him, all that stuff painted picture of what

he was like. Two weeks, Shivey's 13th birthday, middle of the summer in Dallas. He comes in and he just had played in a tournament called Starburst. It's a 54-hole tournament held in Waco and the quality of the golf courses aren't great. Played an Air Force golf course with the size of the ground cracks or about the width of a golf ball. So you can lose a golf ball in a ground crack and... Yeah, thanks for coming. It's the truest hazard. Yeah, thanks for coming. Truest hazard.

Yeah, yeah. And we sit down and we talk. We talk for at least 30, 45 minutes Jordan and myself and his dad. And one of the questions I ask you, well, what do you want to do in golf? What can I help you achieve? What goals do you have in the first 20 cities?

And when the most? I'm like, cool, let's go do it. To all the years old. And then we start hitting balls. And he's a really funky to his idiosyncratic movement but my goodness could he control the ball and get hit all the shots. I oftentimes reflect back on the notes that I take in lessons and I'd never seen it before out of someone so young. I'd coach some professional players to that point but this was just how the worldly so I turned off all my gadgets, my video, my

track man and I said, let's go play golf. I'm going to see this on the golf course. And he had supreme confidence in well and what he was as well and what he was doing. Which went to the golf course, to be played nine halls. I was awfully impressed. He shot even par. And it would be wrong to skip over the main story that I tell from that experience. Is that it didn't him hit many short game shots because it was hitting all fairways and all greens. And I said, well, Jordan, I've got to test this short game that you're so confident with. And so I gave him this challenge.

And the challenge was to get up and down three different spots on three different holes. And he's not doing great. And we get to the last hole, playing it out, he makes par and I give him three up and down opportunities. And there was a prize. It was an incentive for how well he was going to perform. And he needed to essentially hold two shots and get the other third ball up and down to win this prize.

And he proceeds to hold the first one, short chip from off the fringe, get the next bunker shot up and down by hitting it to like a couple of inches, maybe a foot away. And then the last shot, I picked the most difficult possible shot that I could find on the green. He looks at me, he gives me a grin and he proceeds to hold this flop shot. To win what then was a very minor prize, but a major one in his mind, which was a hat from the golf shot that I was at. And you know what, the moral of the story, the point of the story is this kid showed up with such assurance, such a psychological advantage, a self-belief that he could get it done and set the goals

that the buyer really high and said, I'm going to chase him down. Wow, I've never heard that story. I'm sure you've told that one before. I've heard it in the millions of times. He's not my talent. I'm like, I don't know how long I should take to tell the story because it could go all along. I've heard it before and I'm like on the edge of my seat. So, yeah, it always get a whole the last moment. Yeah. So, what do you, for, let's take Jordan, for example,

like from that stage, what did you help him with? What was his swing like when you picked him up to the first things you work on to take him to the next level? If I had a describe, I would have said he came with an extremely strong grip. The club had moved quickly inside underneath the handle and open face such that it looked like he was about to hit a bunker shot rather than a full drive from an approach shot. And from there, he showed the club out and had this release pattern that one-way describe

is kind of flip draw, where the club had went underneath the handle really quickly and he stood up and he's towed. So we had a lot of stuff going on. Having said that, that first day he demonstrated such great ball control and he came off winning that golf tournament and playing quite well and lots of golf tournaments that summer I said, we're not going to do anything. He looks at me, puppy dog guys like so disappointed. And I said, well dude, it's in your best interest to continue with the confidence you have

in the ball control you have. But come back here in two or three months time when your season's done and we'll get started because it was about to stop playing age AGL of a golf. So we had to do some some swing stuff. In fact, a lot of swing stuff. I showed you a video which we'll do off air here of his swing when he was 12, 13 years old. You would have been George the floor like a gas. How could a kid go out and shoot 63 with that and regularly shoot under par? But he did.

And the reason we had to change is it was small for size needed to hit it higher and further. It had to capture more speed out of that frame. So that was the early work. And then beyond that, I remember, probably three out of every six weeks, we would meet out at Brookhull on a Monday, and I would parry them up with the best players I could find on that Monday.

Testing against players that were playing back then, the web.com, now the cornferry tour, a couple of times a PGA tour player, but more often than not many tour players. Players that stepped at the T, looked at this 13, 14, 50 year old, said, we can't play with the money against this kid. I'm like, no, yeah, you can. I'll take him as my partner. And regularly, we'd go out on Monday, three out of every six weeks, and he would strap them.

Now, as I said, he. I didn't contribute very much. So it was really fun watching a player develop techniques that caused them to have better ball control, but watch a player go out there and use those news techniques to demonstrate better skill and and continue to beat players. Well, he came out so fast and almost won the Masters at age 20 and then wins it at age 21. Yep. I don't even know what a question I have in relation to that.

I mean, did you obviously saw something in him in that phase, but were you even surprised at that level of success at that age? There are many things that stand out in my mind, but one that stands out really well, and it didn't end well in terms of performance, was when he got a sponsor's exemption into Tiger's event when it was a congressional. He's still in amateur, still in college. And he comes probably five days before leaving for a practice session. And it's may have been fact check this.

He's fifth or sixth professional event as an amateur. And he made the cut to a three, maybe four times. I think he was probably five is seven or six of eight in professional cuts made as an amateur. And he looks at me at the end of the session. He's like, I'm gonna go win this thing. I said nothing, I was like, sweet, let's go do it. I wasn't going to the event,

but the confidence that he had and that self-belief stood out on many, many an occasion. So I guess going back to your question, was I ever surprised? No, there were so many of you kidding me. This is just amazing. What is, and I know it's a, you're in an un-inviable situation with your clients and what you can say

about things that are currently going on. Well, have you seen that confidence waiver recently or what are you able to do? Things were going so well. I know, we have to ask, you know, we have to ask. It's more than just abandoning your opinion on it. Taking stitches out of an open word, have to ask. You know we have to ask. It's more than just abandoning. You're ripping off.

It's like, stitches out of an open wound. Come on, man. You know we have to ask. I know we're sensitive to, you know, you can't talk about something. But what can you talk about on that front? Yeah. Given the privilege position that I'm in, not only with the clients that I get to work with in private, but also the places you get to go and the people you get to hang with.

I don't tell stories and I don't I mean I appreciate the privilege that I have and also the confidence that they they provided me I will say this that he's a whole lot closer to the Jordan's beef that we all know and love than anyone could possibly understand. He believes that, everyone around him believes that, everyone sees the scoring potential. So many 36-hole, maybe not leads, but there were several of them last year. The first round, second round scoring average, I think second and second round scoring average, and maybe top 10 in first round scoring average. So those are all indicators that the ship is writing and good things are coming. Yep, that's perfect. And I hate you now.

We have a list. We keep this list right now. We just added you to that list. I'm on the list. There's a hate list. Hey, I'm a trusted journalist. You know, bulletin board between us. It's not a hate list.

It's just the list that we've got some messages to that we're gonna send to. It was in the Times Cup. It's a good thing. Yeah, sweet. The Christmas second week of April next year. Exactly. We can't help it. Oh, were you watching?

You know what happened? The only reason I felt comfortable that I was able to ask is he talked specifically about these issues on this exact podcast. Gotcha. Yeah, that's the other reason why. Yeah, I recall listening. Well, one thing I wanted to talk in Corey,

you know, we've, you and I have spent the prior to today, we did some work today, Cameron was nice enough to spend some time working on my swing, but some of the ways you talked to me in the past Cory about the golf swing and how you approach drilling things in, was very interesting, I mean, as a way I've never really thought about it before,

and the process of calling plays. And my interpretation of that was, you weren't trying to necessarily just come in and fix my swings, they do this, do this, do this. It was like, hey, let's try this to get this activated. Can you explain that concept of calling plays? Yeah, and the context of that is that all four of you guys came in in an hour

and we're like, hey, could you look at our swing? It was like, oh, okay, that's a lot to do. I don't think I think it was an hour. Yeah, right, so I've got, because you guys are gonna go play for a 24. So. I don't think it was an hour. Yeah, right. So I've got, because you guys were gonna go play for a 24. So I had 15 minutes with each of you guys. Like speed dating.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's really well. Yeah, that's exactly what it was like. You didn't even get a lesson that day? I think I had two balls. Yeah, well I thought, I was Moses then. You got better by I was Moses. That was, you're thinking of the church of West Lake.

That's right, that's what I refuted. I wanna have you know, I refuted. I completely refuted a Gankus lesson. Exactly. I was like, I'm loyal. I can't possibly. I gotta mess it down this road. I got a message in Cory immediately after I said,

don't let a mess with that trail arm. Before Cory answers that, you said the church at West Lake? Yeah. What's altas here? What's Trinity Fars golden? This is actually a good one. Yeah, you're putting me on the spot. Let me think about that.

Okay, yeah. It's kind of a shrine. It's much more shriny than the church. Yeah, I mean, it's just absolutely beautiful. Well, clearly, this whole place feels like, you know, I was thinking, you're about mecca. This is like a Joel Austin.

Yeah, it's a mega church. Yeah, and I was gonna say, like starting out, I'm like, got this whole thing feels like such a commercial for Autis, but when you come here and you see it, you're like, no, this is really freaking cool. That's what I think we're trying to convey here. It's like, what you guys have built here, and I don't know if you can describe it,

because it's probably not a lot of people have seen it, or seen video of it, or whatever, but like describe where we're at here, what this facility is like, what it looks like, all of that kind of stuff. Cameron's really good, because Cameron really had a lot to do with why we're here, what this facility is like, what it looks like, all of that kind of stuff. Cameron's really good, because Cameron really had a lot to do with why we're here, and I mean, everything to do with why we're here,

and then also what this place looked like and designing it the way that it is. Well, I guess we're sitting on an old landfill from the 1960s and down, well, six miles, five miles south of Dallas, and not to get too long-winded, because we're probably pressed for time, and Corey definitely needs to answer the question

about plays. Yeah. But we're sitting in a 10,000 square foot teaching center that has a putting lab, four hitting bays, is home to both altous and also SMU men's and women's golf tools and technology out the wazoo. We've got gears, we've got swing care, we've got a sand pot lab, we've got captoes,

the list goes on, we've got all the tools and resources, but more than that is we've got Sam Partler, we've got CapTos, it list goes on, we've got all the tools and resources, but more than that is we've got the right people here, an array of professional and amateur players that are all kind of contributing to rising everyone's boat, right? Rising Tides, Floats, Floats, all boats. We're sitting on 64 acres of just practice space, so to put it in a context, I think Merriann is built on 108. That was exactly what I did in my head.

I mean, ridiculous. We got path-recourse, it's called the horse course. We've got driving range that's 400 yards end to end. We've got all the right things to make players better just as long as the coaching coming out of it is good, so Corey. Yeah, so that's why we call good place. So you're right in that you picked up on the fact that we're not just gonna direct you and say hey you need to do this you have to do it this way. What we found is that really good coaches have the deepest playbook meaning we identify something that we we know that needs to change and there's not just one way to do it and because

Everyone's a little bit different. They're gonna respond to different things, right? So The best coaches have the deepest playbook, but they also call the right play first most of the time and that's what really separates good coaches from maybe not so good coaches and so when you guys were in It's like we identified something that we needed to do and I told you you, look, there's a bunch of ways we can do this. We're gonna call a couple plays and we're gonna see if we can score the touchdown with one of them. And I think another thing that it does is it takes a little bit of the pressure off of you,

the student, to perform perfectly right away. Because it can be a little bit intimidating to walk into a golf lesson, especially as you said, the shrine here. I mean, I can see how it could be a little bit much. And especially when you're signing up to be evaluated and judged by us. And so we want to ease that a little bit and say, Cameron's really good at, and when he starts with someone, and it's something that I've stolen from him to where he says,

I'm going to call this play in every bad shot that you hit right now is on me, because I'm the one who called this play. So don't worry about any bad shots. We're going to find the play in every bad shot that you hit right now is on me because I'm the one who called this play. So don't worry about any bad shots. We're going to find the right play that works for you. So there's multiple reasons why we kind of frame it like that with Colin Place. That's, and how I took it to and what I, again, we spent like five minutes. So you said, like, go practice this on the range, right?

Put a, put a tour striker ball between your elbows, work on that to, you know, square up your, your trail arm, your right arm to keep it from flaring, and then you got to work on, uh, the swing guide, which is something that's restricted, my back swing to keep me from going that. But like what I took away from that was, all right, these are things for the range. Like you're going to go practice these on the range, you're going to drill, but when you go out to play golf, you're not thinking about your trail arm, right? You've practiced it.

Like that's what the range time was for. How do you, is, is that a common lesson that you feel like you're teaching? You know your players in that hey, this is what we're working on here But when you go play golf don't that don't be like thinking that specifically You're gonna work on it here so it works out there. Yeah, so the and that's the maybe biggest difference in coaching you a Recreational player and the reality is is that you're not to put the same amount of hours into making that change as the professional or the competitive players here. And so that's one huge obstacle that we're up against. With these players that we've got here, we know that they're efficient, they're smart with how they're practicing. And so there certainly

is a separation between what practice mode is and then what performance mode is. And so a lot of times that we've got to assign what the performance or what we call form work, sorry, the practice of form work, what that looks like. Here are the tasks that you're going to do. And now here are a couple tasks that help you blend in what it's actually going to be on the golf course. And I think when we're on the golf course on a Monday through Wednesday at a tournament, hopefully we're in that performance mode the whole time, we're working on skills, but the reality is that sometimes we've got to actually do some formwork, and we're trying to make it as minimally, minimally invasive as possible so that then it actually does show up when they're out there playing.

The expression you use often is shift to play. Right. I think it's a great way to express it. You want to do some... Yeah, so we'll do kind of some drills where I really like to use three ball sets or four ball sets to where I've got three balls in front of you and we're going full form mode. Like you're thinking about all the internal technical cues that I've given you. And then the next three ball set, we're going to shift a little bit. We're going to shift our focus more external to where finally the last three, we're trying to be as target oriented as we can.

I think that a lot of players, we have this argument a lot. They expect to be able to play their best golf without any technical cues. And yeah, that's true for about 2.5% of the rounds that they'll play for the rest of their life. That they're not going to have any technical thoughts. And that's not my opinion.

That's stuff that we've talked to, the best players in the world that have, and formed that opinion that we have. And so it's okay if you have some kind of a cue that you're paying attention to, and I think completely reasonable. But we want you to be able to perform those changes that we've prescribed in a way where you can still

play golf, you're not playing golf swing as it said so many times. So there's, I don't know the right way to ask this question, but there's so much out there about the golf swing, right? Like there's, there's so much that's been written. There's so many improvement articles. There's that like, oh, I'm sure you guys disagree on some things about the golf swing at times. And that's why I was gonna kind of get at it.

Like how do you inform your opinions of the golf swing? Well, the good thing is you can have an opinion, but then you can road test that, can't you? Yeah. You can road test if it's effective. And it's one, well, I guess there's something also to be said for what's that timeline for effectiveness. And that's where we go back and almost make the request

in advance of like, hey, we're gonna try these things. If option A or play A doesn't work, then we'll go to play B and eventually we're gonna get to the end of scoring a touchdown off for you hitting better shots. So give me five swings. Option A or play A doesn't work then we'll go to play B and eventually we're going to get to the end of scoring a touchdown off for you hitting better shots So give me five swings give me ten swings because after that most definitely you're gonna have what you need So going back to the question. How do you really kind of differentiate? It's it's the ball the balls of the barometer and Fire too often like me is a rookie coach

I remember my first year and a half, two years of coaching. It was garbage. It was garbage because I was the one standing there saying, you didn't do it correctly. That's why the bull didn't move correctly. I was a very form and then method based coach. And then I shifted. I shifted because I traveled around the country and I watched the best coaches do it from Butch Harmon to David Lebeder to Shark Cook and the list goes on and I recognize they did it dramatically different than I do it. You look at a rookie

coach and they're very prescriptive. Here are the positions or the that you need to hit in your swing in order to play better. Whatever that standard of better is for that player. But yet the best coaches said, okay, we're going to do this. If this. It's a little bit more of this and all with the end of just controlling the ball and not being quite so elaborate and prescriptive and what they were describing. I don't know if Jordan is, you know, the direct correlation to that, but the question I had in my mind is like, what's the way that he's changed you as an instructor the most do you think? Yeah, he was reinforcement when I was going through that learning reinforcement, that oh my gosh,

you can do it in a multitude of ways and still give the instructions to that little white thing that's sitting on the ground that has no concern for what your size is, what your gender is, and what your net worth is. Yeah, he was only reinforcement to that and he was also not a nudge, but a heavy push in the direction of let

idiosyncrasy flourishing. Yeah. So I would agree. I think that more than anything, I mean, the lesson that I learn is from their work together is that skills always trump style. And so not only are we trying to get you to swing it really, really good, but we're also trying to reinforce that with

like skillfulness. Like, can you hit different types of shots? Can you adapt to different environments? Can you, when you have your C game, can you figure out a way to have a good four days? That's $1,000,000,000 swings and missing the cut. Yeah, no doubt. No doubt, right? Yeah, it's weak.

So that's what I was going to ask so non-altice players. Who's your favorite player to watch? I have, I have such a nice answer. Oh, he's an altice player. I always find myself on the range, really close to watch. That, I have it. Such a good center. My son. He's an ultra player. I always find myself on the range, really close to Alex Noren, like on the practice range. He's got a heavy man crush. I have such a man crush. I just love it so much.

Solid your thoughts. It's my boy. Listen, it goes against everything that I just said on Skill Trump style because I just love the way that, I mean, he's a technician. And so again, it goes against what I just said, but he just grinds. And he's doing it in an idiosyncratic way. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that's true. There's no other player on the European tour of PGA-2, or he's out there practicing what he's practicing. He does not. He's rehearsing those maneuvers. I watched at the players this year for 20 minutes, 30 minutes, I watched him cut chip shots. Oh, for sure.

I have video in Andre. I was just, I felt like I was like, Oh, for sure. I have video in André. I was just, I felt like I was like stoned. Just setting their watch in my guy. I can't do it. I can't do it, right? This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. I always get really wide angles when I'm videoing André when he's there.

Just so, and I have this video of the cut wedge. Sorry, André. Spending, sorry. No, he knows. Well, that's good to verify that I was actually seeing what I thought I was seeing. Absolutely. My favorite part of these guys' stories

is how exaggerated the time frames get. We watched him do it for like four minutes. I was right seeing what I thought I was seeing. My favorite part of these guys' stories is how exaggerated the time frames get. We watched them do it for like four minutes. I was right there with a 20-inch audience. 30 minutes. Yeah. Spin watching. We should have been back after you left. There you go.

Well, I want to know, we talked a lot about the golf swing to this point, but where your guys' responsibilities for coaching players stops. And I don't think it really does, but the point of the question, and that coaching technical swing stuff is just part of the equation, right? And the two parts I want to get at is statistics and analytics and preparation of that, and then the next part being mental. I mean, mental being, I think I'm starting

to just start to uncrack what the mental side of golf is like, how to actually do it as the next part, but understanding what left brain and right brain means and things like that. I want to get to that. But from an analytic standpoint, what do you guys do with your clients to tell them what they're doing well, tell them what they need to improve on,

how often are you giving that data to them, what's that look like? Harry basically was saying on the podcast, you guys don't even work on this one, right? Like you guys just, but you're finally giving me a chance. Yeah. To write the record here here Cameron for the last two

Weeks since y'all release that podcast has been calling me a sports psychologist very very pejoratively So to all sports psychologists you can take offense But you will get to the mental partner look at but as far as like the the analytics So use Harry as the example is the reason why he says we come in here and we sit in the office and talk is because if he's on a five week stretch and he comes back here, the first thing that we do is we try to get an assessment on what went right and what went wrong. And so that when he has a short period of time, we're impacting those areas that are going to have a direct impact on as Cameron said earlier, getting that half shot better,

that obviously makes such a big difference in where you're ranked in the world. And so that's all we're trying to do. We're trying to get this appraisal of what's good and what's bad. Yeah. Yeah. What's it look like? I mean, what's, is it one spreadsheet that's printed out? Is it even, I was going to ask what might be a very stupid question.

Do you guys have access to other stats from the PGA Tour that says we don have access to? Or is it? We can look at any player that plays in that PGA tour event, we can look at shop by shop, we can scatter plots, etc. etc. So the data sources are a shot link, the data sources are caddies, the data sources are the players, but looking at like just the stats alone, is any one great reference, isn't it? Like the stats are like a bikini, they share your lot. But they don't share everything. What they reveal is key.

Yes, exactly. So it's very important for us to sit down with our clients and have that conversation, peel the layers of the onion back, be on just the analysis, just be on the data, to understand the context of what was going on in the vent, what you trying to accomplish and how far off what the intent was, the execution was, meaning that we're the ball ended up, right? So yeah, those conversations last 15, 20, 30, 45 minutes.

Yeah, and then it becomes the nice thing about that is then you've got these really short feedback loops. So where now they've got, we've determined what our game plan is. Here are the three things that we do want to see a positive impact on and then you've got another five week stretch and then we get to see how we did. Did we have a good plan? Did you do what you were actually supposed to do or do we need to kind of retool something or was it just a form issue that was holding you back from that? So then we're able to correct course as needed and it's easy to kind of retool something or was it just a form issue that was holding you back from that. So then we're able to correct course as needed and it's easy to kind of navigate that

way throughout the year when you're informed that way. Going back to your original question though, it's hard to know where that line shifts because with each player it's different. I've got a player that plays in the PGA who has a home-based coach like Boots on the Ground who consults with me on a variety of different things and everything that I do is filtered through that boots on the ground home-based coach and that's how he wants to work for a great number of my clients. I am technical coach, I'm a tactical coach, I am training coach. Sports psychologist. Sometimes even I'm making recommendations on travel so yeah

the line continues and time is not the line either. I mean, I fall asleep at night thinking about coaching the next day. I fall asleep at night thinking about what I've done in the previous hours that might be good or bad that I can try and improve on. Do you guys ever come to you and say, like, I just can't hit my irons right now? And then you look at the stats and they're hitting it great. Do you guys have a good perception of the things they're doing wrong?

Undoubtedly, there's often incongruence between the stats and how a player feels. And that's almost always because the stats are lying, right? How a player feels standing over the ball needs to be the most important thing that you're moving in a positive direction. Because standing over it with confidence, knowing that you're about to execute what you intend, is the most important thing that you're moving in a positive direction, because standing over it with confidence knowing that you're about to execute what you intend is the most important thing, which is why the stats are on you.

One down at a point. We heard, I love the podcast that you and Harry did recently, Harry Higgs. And I'm curious, Corey, we heard his perspective on making the leap and what changed, and all that stuff. I'm curious if you're a perspective on... There leap and what changed and all that stuff I'm curious for your perspective on. There's purely technical and perfect. Yeah. No, they're good in touch with the target. Yeah, right.

Yeah, I mean, there are some significant things that change formwise for him and that they continue to change. And he really, really works hard. Harry is a guy who is a funny guy. He's a lot of fun to be around, but he really does work really really hard and is very serious about getting better, which is why he's made that leap. But I think more than anything, we identified what Harry does well when he plays great golf, which is something

that everybody listening and everyone in the world needs to spend a little bit of time of taking stock of, or when you're playing in your best golf, what do you do? What do you look like, how do you act? How are you showing up? And when we got really, really clear about that, then it was a matter of holding him accountable to those things that he identified, and having constant conversations are,

are you living up to these things that you said that you would do in order to play your best golf? And he's done an amazing job of that. His also, his prep has gotten a lot better, his Monday through Wednesday plan, his blueprint that he follows is really, really good. And that's allowed him to go from Latin America

where he's seeing really different golf courses to now, to Cornfairy to now PGA tour. All that success has translated really well because he's been consistent and effective in how he preps for those events. And for, let's take Harry, for example, if you can. And when I, you know, people have asked me, and I've talked to you about work with you guys some,

as to what has changed. And I explain it kind of simply, the things I've worked on. People seem actually genuinely interested in that, you could, like, just understanding the actual details in what you're working on and what to look for and stuff like that. Can you explain to us what with Harry, like you guys work on?

What is change maybe in his swing in the last two years? It can be as small in my newt as possible, but I never know when I'm watching pros and I know that they're working on something new or trying something, I never know what to look for. So I'm surprised that a massive smile coming about Cory's face right now, that we get to actually justify the tick.

Yeah, exactly. That was such a... So Harry's got like nine inches of pelvic sway on the way down and his downswing are to impact. You bet you find what pelvic sway is. Yeah, so pelvic sway is just his hips moving towards the target, basically. And so his lower body,

like laterally moves towards the target a ton. And he used to his upper body in response that fell way back behind. So we had this look of side bend, right, to where his right shoulder is really loaded the ground is the way that you can think about it. And that resulted in some poor strikes, which is what he really, really complained about

when he was playing his pork off was just, the strike was off so he had no ball control. And then it also created some right misses for him too, because it pushed his path further right than what he wanted in order to hit a cut which he does really really well just drives it so good when he's hitting this hard low cut and so that became mission number one and I think that another reason why I'm glad that you bring it up because it makes me think of another reason why he's done so

well and why he's made this leap is because he has this understanding for what happens and his golf swing and for what is keeping him from better ball control And he follows that blueprint religiously He's not jumping around to a bunch of shit and throwing stuff at the wall and figuring out if hey Maybe you know what I saw someone else do this or I saw you know Rory swings like this I need to try to he knows what he does really really well and. And he knows what he needs to be doing and training and practice to get better at it. And he doesn't sway from that.

And so that's another reason why I think he's made that blueprint or made that leap with that blueprint. Transitioning something to what I was kind of talking about on the mental side. I don't, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think like you guys are professionally trained in understanding mental psychology. Or maybe the better question is what do you guys do to understand psychology? Like mental part of golf? Where did

you learn how to teach that part? You learn it from players. You learn it from other sources of research, whether it be a book or podcasts. But you only really know what to talk about based on what the player is experiencing. So when they come back and they say, here is the challenge that I'm having is I'm standing over this type of shot, then you start to design a strategy for that. But you're right, we're not degreeed in any possible way. We're always looking for that next knowledge nugget or point of wisdom that we can translate when the time is right. And that's deep in the playbook as well. There are a multitude of those that don't, they're not the exes and those of how you would

adjust a swing or a ball flight, but they are certainly highly impactful on how players perform and how players, even the performance of players and caddies together is part of the coaching repertoire and the coaching sphere influence. Do you guys get nervous to dish out, to call plays? Basically, and again, I'm running a lot of this through Jordan, I know, but when he's at the British Open and he's calling you and saying like hey, I'm not feeling great and I need to figure this out You know, do you feel nervous calling a play? Do you feel an ownership of what's about to happen?

You've experienced with a player. Yeah, you've been coaching for a long time and there should be no nervousness It's a feel more it feels more like science than art at that point. Generally you're solving for known problems Yeah, no problems have known solutions if you've solved them before. It's the problems that surface that you don't have solutions immediately to because you've never solved them before. They give you some sense of trepidation or some sense of, I wonder if this is going to be the one that works the first

time or will have to go to option two. So, not really. One thing I feel like I've started, when I was referring to, starting to uncrack the mental side of golf, which I was listening to an audiobook recently about the mental side of golf and how, when I feel like when I play my best golf, I'm not thinking golf swing when I'm on the golf course, right? I'm thinking targets, I'm playing targets. I never understood the difference between like being left brain and right brain

and that you want as best as you can, switching over your conscious to your right brain and letting your body take over is something that I was like, oh, God, like that makes way more sense to me. Is that anywhere in line with what you guys teach it anyway? I think you're speaking of focus of attention more than anything else there. And I think that that is a aspect of attention more than anything else there and I think that that is a

That is a aspect of thinking more effectively on the golf course But it's also I go back to those times where You're going to have rounds of golf internaments to where You can think all about the target all you want and the ball is not going to be a target Correct. It's not going to happen Yeah, and so you've got to have some solutions to it So more of like your attention to focus, which I agree is an important thing, an important part of learning.

But I would rather a player be equipped with four or five different mental strategies, like tools that they have that. When shit hits the fan, when I face the inevitable adversity of around, I've got these things kind of pre-loaded, these one, two, three, or four things that I do. And again, maybe that can be spurred on by a caddy, like kind of helping get to those spots.

But I want them to have those tools. And so that's part of the conversations that we have in here. It's like naming those tools. What are they? And how do we get to- Letting them fix themselves at times. Exactly. Because when you, we've all experienced those rounds in the golf course, we rarely have the

peace of mind to draw upon those very wise and helpful strategies when we're ready to break a club over with me, right? And so that's why you can't just wait for it to come to you. You've got to have it preloaded. You've got to have it ready to go. And we have to practice it the same way we would work on any of those hard skills that we practice because we all know how important that part of it is to what our score is at the end. When you guys were watching golf, I was just, I was having dinner with a guy the other

night who's a record producer and he's talking about, you know, when I listen to music, like I can't turn off that part of my brain and it's really hard to just listen to the music because I'm listening to how it was recorded and I'm listening to how it was mixed and blah, blah, blah. I'm curious when you guys watch golf, do you have, are you able to shut it? I'm breaking down swings. Are you able to shut it off or are you just cocking? I'm breaking down swings.

Are you watching Tiger Woods? I'm being like, oh, this looks right, this looks good. Yeah. The number of times I'll see a shot hit and I'll be sitting with my wife on my son and daughter and I'll call out in the air, just based on body language, where I was heading to. How do you know that? Well, when you hit a shot like that before, you kind of know the body language that someone's

goes through, that's just one example of that. So definitely, yeah, it's hard to take that hat off and just be a fan and appreciate. Do you, without naming names for your players, do you find at times you have to balance between players that are overly reliant on you guys? You came as laughing. You should see his face. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, noGA, European tour, and you've got X number of hours and to do the job of a coach versus the job of an instructor, you need to get your butt out there on the golf course and participate in a practice round, even if it's just an observational way.

So you're out there for four hours and sometimes you have players that just don't like to play with certain people. And that means you're days alone. And your calendar doesn't fit or your daily schedule doesn't fit with someone else's. So yeah, it's an extreme balancing act. There are coaches on all tours that carry lots of players. I'm going to say I'm going to call lots of players more than four. Any more than four is really hard to do the job that you want to do the best job to your ability when you're a to recharge versus instructor You named it you named a ton of LPG players that you work with them do

Does your teaching style change from can we please talk so you and you she's like my? My golf sweet, huh? It's a big specific crush. Like, I think her game is awesome. I love her swing. Yeah. What can you tell us about? For some of it, it's like never seen her swing in her rhythm. What can you tell us about her? What's like to work with her?

She's a brilliant person. Very easy to work with is willing to try anything understands that things ebb and flow in the game. And we'll put eons of hours in just like most elite level players will but heres is quite frankly next level. She's generous to everyone, meaning myself, her family, her friends and the general fans that are out there as well. She's uncommon. Most of the players, most is probably a stretch, but there are a lot of players that play professional sports generally and in this case specifically

golf that yeah I'll walk around with an air about them like the fans are inconvenience so Yon's not that way and she appreciates the fans and and realizes that she gets to do what she loves to do because of that and pays attention to what they're looking for, whether that's autographs or time and conversation in pro-Ms. And she's just an excellent athlete in every possible way, whether that's in the gym, it shows up or on the golf course it shows up and yeah real special. From a teaching perspective do you is there any differences between the men's and women's games that that you guys work work on? I'll answer because I'm

no longer working with any LPGA players. You may need to hit your runway a little bit quicker because there may be more turnover. Yeah there's certainly turnover in the women's game. I've observed that's greater in frequency than in the men's game. That's in the caddy realm and the manager agent realm and also in the coach instructor realm. Even just just like extremely dumbing it down, but you know, in the men's game, it seems like it's all about speed. It's all about hitting as far as you can. Like more from that side, is there anything different about women's gamers?

It still feel very similar. Speed is becoming a greater differentiated than it ever has been in the women's gamers, it still feel very similar. Speed is becoming a greater differentiated than it ever has been in the women's game. It's probably catching up maybe to 10, 12, 15 years ago in the men's game. There are more female athletes that are coming out that are bigger faster and stronger at younger ages than ever before.

There are more girls hitting it at plus 150 ball speed than ever before. And the girls that have been out there for 10, 15 years are realizing that. And they're probably working hard to try and find that MPH, that speed gain. Outside of that, I would say that the women's game is more of a precision game, but shifting in the power direction. And I would also say that it's untrue. I'll be the first person that kind of crushes that misconception that women don't have

the touch that the men do. They most definitely have the touch that the men do. I observe and try and change that paradigm on diversity in skill with the clients that I get to spend time with. I think that there are far more one-dimensional short games, greenside play on the LPJ2, but that's also changing. They're kind of getting that picture that need more diversity in their skill set. Cool.

All right, we've taken up a ton of your guys time today. We are finally going to let you guys off the hook. But thank you for all the awesome work today. I feel really good about what you guys are helping me with. Good. Turn that hip and thrust towards the ground. I think is that a good way to just... No, not thrust.

Yeah, just definitely no thrust. We need to feel like we're sinking towards the ground. Sinking towards the ground. Yeah, I'm not a very good student if you can't tell. I think I confused the thing you told me not to do with the thing you told me to do. We should be right there. I'm going to be right there.

Yeah, maybe right there. I'm going to be one of those overly reliant players on you guys now. But thank you guys both for the time. So it's an absolute blast and look forward to hopefully doing some more content with you guys in the future. Jay, it's a good time. Awesome.

Thanks. It's a good time. It's a good time for us. Be the right club today. Yes. Be the right club. That's better than most. I thought it was better than most.

Better than most. Expect anything different. Thank you.