No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 272: Lanny Wadkins

Episode Date: January 15, 2020

Hall of Famer Lanny Wadkins joins us to talk about his decorated career, the 1977 PGA Championship, some Ryder Cup stories, being let go by CBS, broadcasting, and so much more. We also discuss the evolution of technology in golf, the harrowing 1979 Players Championship at Sawgrass Country Club, Arnold Palmer, and what it was like being a young professional in the 1970's. Thanks a ton to Lanny for the time, this is one of my favorites.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most Expect anything different people know me for broadcasting now. That's that's that's almost hysterical to me Well, I mean, I started watching golf probably late 90s early 2000s Yeah, like I don't have memories of watching you play golf and I love Going like doing these setting up these interviews with you guys because it

I feel like I just start uncovering this stuff like I was read we're gonna get to the 77 pga Sure reading stories of Jean lit there's quotes after it. I think about like how we approach Media now we would have a field day with some of those quotes and all the things that happened Yeah, I never saw I don't even know that I saw any any quotes of his always Something about in the playoff, he hit it over the third green at Pebble, and he said if it was Paul Merz or Nicholas's ball, the crowd would have stopped it, and nobody stopped it.

Oh, that was in the tournament. That wasn't playoff, that was during the tournament. Got you. It was interesting, because in the playoff, we both did the opposite of what we did in the morning. Okay. I spun it off the front of the green in the morning and I knocked it, I had wedged and

knocked it over the green in the afternoon. He hit it over the green and set it bounds of the morning and he came up short with a nasty lie right there. How many golf shots can you remember from your career? I mean, you remember that one? That's your major win. I assume that comes to mind quickly. Almost every shot of that playoff and, you know, stands out. So I can guardages and clubs and every pretty close. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've got a great store we

get to play off. Well, we can go right now. We don't have to do this. No, go ahead. Let's see. Let's hear your great your great story. Well, I mean, the cool thing about the playoff, it was actually the first major conducted at Sudden Death, and we didn't know it as players. I finished to hit a littler, I shot 70, and I actually made a birdie at 18. I'm standing in the fairway, I had 92 yards. I remember the yardage from my third shot at Pebble, and the big school board behind the green, they changed a littler from, I think, 6 to 5, or 7 to 6, and I'm five standing in the fairway and

I just got excited and I stuffed it to about 18 inches and giggled it in the left edge. It didn't exactly go dead center but it got in and I had to wait for Nicholas to finish. I'm sitting there with Nicholas staring 15 footer to timey. So I really didn't want to play Jack Nicholas in a playoff. So Some sitting there and because at that time thinking it's well, I'm standing by the scorched it and watch him You know miss that putt, you know what I'm thinking thank goodness and then Littler is coming up That was the whole different ball game. I'd played Littler in a playoff I was okay with that new gene. I'd play with him the third round

He was going backwards and he was not playing well. I played a very good round the last day. I did not make an eagle till, I mean, a birdie till 18. I eagle both par-files on the front the last round. And my only birdie was at 18. So anyway, I'm standing there. And I'm thinking, you know, we're gonna, I'm halfway through a beer.

And they say, you're on the first tee. You didn't know it was a bad place. No, they know it's playoffs. No way. So they grabbed us and take us to the first tee. Because we didn't, first off, they didn't know where they were going. The gallery ropes were already down. So it was massive stereo going down the fairway.

Gallery's where out of control was like the, you ever seen, you've seen the British over the last hole, that was what we had for three holes. It was out of control. So, we get on the first hole and you look at, and I was a big fan to Sam's needs, so I looked at things. Sam did a book, an education of a golfer, and how you study your opponents and see how his routine and stuff has changed. Well, I'd play with Littler the third day,

and I got on the first hole in the playoff, and he went from setting up dead square ball forward to aiming right and ball back in middle of the stance, sitting forward off one. You know, all of a sudden I knew he was struggling. So, well, so you at the turn, I think you had a quote afterwards saying you were hoping to finish in the top eight

just to play in the Masters. Yes, exactly. So you're you're playing that back nine of a major trying to accomplish that. That was my goal. And that's the major you win. Well, I was in good shape. All of a sudden about 15 or 16. I've kind of got that covered. Yeah. And now Lillard starts going backwards. I think, you know, I need to, and I had, I was literally standing over a putt from about eight feet for par at 16. Knowing I had to make this to have a chance, I made it. And then probably hit the best two iron in my life. You know, you play, you play the 17th hole across the road, the whole location is back left. I hit it 12 feet behind the hole and it lipped that on the highest I got down the hill. And I thought that was my chance right there. And because I felt, I hit it 12 feet behind the hole and it flipped out on the highest I went down the hill. I thought that was my chance right there and because I

felt like I need to birdie 17 and 18 to have a shot but then Littler made another bogey. How does that information weave through the course in 1977? I mean today it's different there's electronic scoreboards in a lot of places. There were scoreboards and there was information going on. I don't think I knew exactly how many. There's always been a there was information going on. I don't think I knew exactly how many. There's always been a big score board at 17. Walking from 16 green to 17 t, there's a score board right to the left of like the fourth t.

And that's been there forever. That was still there. So I saw that going to 17. New I had a shot. How different is hitting a two iron in 1977 versus hitting a two iron today? Probably be like it in a three iron today. I just mean with the size of the sweet spot.

And it wouldn't be a big yeah. It went, that's what you're used to. Did that equipment, like the way the game was played in the prime of your era, do a better job of separating out the top players. The way I kind of don't think there's any question. And also the equipment wasn't as consistent.

So you had to essentially build your own set, get shavs you liked, and the big thing was until Joe Braley came along with frequency-matte shavs. Everybody's struggle getting, you know, if you ever broke a seven iron, for example, high-dow-ever. Today, it's a no-brainer to replace it. Back then, it was major surgery. Like, I gotta find out what I can hit. But the interesting thing, I was playing spaltings

and this is 1977, I think the clubs I used were like 1967 vintage. Now you wouldn't find guys using clubs 10 years old today. They changed so often, they changed a couple of times a year. This was the old burden ball spardings that were probably in the 6667 range. That's what I used in 1977. My sandwich that I had in my bag was a spawning 50-60 degree with 14 degrees bounce That was the same sandwich I used when I won the US Amateur 1970

No, the grooves. Well, what did the grooves look like? It didn't make any difference. The ball was so soft. You actually wanted grooves worn today They want grooves back then we didn't you wanted a warn set of grooves so the ball didn't spend too much with the soft ballata and stuff. How long would you play the same golf ball? I mean those ballata balls. How long? I went to a deal. It's interesting. I got on a program. I had the old ring that used to test where the ball was round or not. Okay. Well the one thing I discovered early on was you hit one drive, you ball wouldn't come close to one through the ring.

Really? Oh yeah, not one drive. One drive. I mean, just one shot and it would go at a round, essentially. So I would play a ball one hole, I'd get a sleeve for nine holes. So I'd play a ball on one, two, three, and I'd mark them one, two, three.

And then my caddy would rotate them. I'd play the one ball on four, the ball on one, two, three, and I'd mark him one, two, three. And then my caddy would rotate him. I'd play the one ball on four, the two on five, three on six, and one on seven, two on eight, three on nine. I'd get a new sleeve for the back nine. Really? So that's what we did. I told Hogan that one time I was talking to Ben in his office when I was with a Hogan company, he said, he said, that's a good idea.

He said, I think I would have taken nine golf balls and played them the front nine, and then started over again with those balls in the back. I mean, that was what he thought he would have done. I always think it's the weirdest flex for professional golfers, how few golf balls some of them carry. Like for us, we're like, well, I got eight balls. I don't know if that's gonna last me today,

but when you know where it's going, you don't need to, I need to replace it. Well, the balls marked up more back then, the ball was stuck. I mean, I was gonna always have at least nine in my bag to start around. when you know where it's going you don't need to uh... well the ball's marked up more back then the block so i mean i was going to always have at least nine in my bag to start around well so it what was it like all right let's let's go right into this this incident like

i'm dying to talk about the nineteen seventy nine players championship which is for people that don't know was just maybe the most carnage that maybe ever what what i guess that's a question for you is that the hardest conditions you played in stateside on the BGA tour. It was for several years at Sawgrass, no question, I mean, it was Kanye. It was a Sawgrass Country Club, not TPC Sawgrass.

Yeah, exactly. And we had no win the first two days. I shot, I don't know, 67, 68 or something like, I don't remember the scores exactly, but I know I had a three shot lead after two rounds. I shot 76, the third round and maintained a three shot lead. I think you had a five shot lead going to the last. I think it was spandid, it was three going to last.

I maintained the three shot lead and then I shot 72 on Sunday. I was the first person to ever break par for four rounds at Sawgrass and I was five and I won by five over Watson. The scoring average in the last two rounds of that event was 77.49 in the third round in 78.6. So in reading about this, I was stunned to learn that there was no one ball rule on the

tour at the time. And the win was so bad that guys were hitting top flights off the tee on the tour at the time. And the win was so bad that guys were hitting top flights off the tee on the end of the win holes and putting balladas back in play on the downwinds. Yeah, I never did that. I never messed with the top flight. I didn't trust it chipping, putting stuff like that. And I could hit it down if I needed to.

One thing I could always do was hit the ball low. So I could control my trajectory really well. To me, that wasn't the issue the issue was just the power of the win Before the last round I would run into Waiscock. We were staying the same place and He gave me a great piece of advice as I was going to the golf course. He said And I always played fast anyway So it meant that when I made up my mind I pretty much did that he said do what you always do Make up your mind play the shot. Don't second guess it today and all this when. Just come right up with

a plan. Hit it, boom, go, trust it. And I did that all day. And I mean, there were a couple of times I hit three irons, five irons, literally aiming out over water for the, you know, I said, that's the only way to get it close. The ninth hole, for example, I hit three irons, started out in the middle of the water and it ended up six feet behind the hole. But it was just, you had to, you know, that was the only way you had to just be bold enough to play that shot and that's what you did. So, in that event, we heard, I read a story about, in the locker room afterward, there's

a barber chair where everyone sat in and just sitting, like debrief their rounds and that day because people were inside the chat. Yeah, that barber chair was there forever. It actually got moved to the locker room over it. It, it, players club when they opened it was one of the things they took over there. I don't know if it's still around or not, but that was from, uh, yeah, from, uh, and that was not necessarily that year. The years before were worse. The two years or so leading up were maybe even worse than that, because it was four days of that win, not just two. Yeah.

Well, apparently, Crenshaw was the ringleader and decided to put it something up on the board with an 18-hole ringer score. Everyone went and posted their highest numbers, and there was double digits on every single hole. Oh, yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, the ringer score was off at charge. It was, yeah. What was, it's the 10th hole.

The 10th hole, there used to be a back tee there. There was, and you had to carry a lake, and it was no big deal normally. But I remember the last day, it was probably the best drive I hit the last round, and I didn't carry, but maybe five or 10 yards. I mean, there were guys could not get it over the water. There were guys that were hitting seven irons

to the lower tee box. Yeah. But I drove it over the water. I was really driving it well. I think I played the last two rounds with Trevino. I felt like I had a big advantage off Lee because I hit probably more than half my T-shots at week off the ground. I had a Tony Pena driver, had a very straight face, straight soul on the box, so it sold very nice.

And I would put my ball literally on the ground, and I'd never had to try to hit it low. I would just right to left and wind, just leaves it in the fade out and there to hold the fairway. I'm just aiming down the right side, hitting a BB out there, and I'm driving at 50 yards behind. Mine's a big advantage that kind of win. Is it, do you look at like the way golf is played now with this equipment as just a completely different foreign game to compared to the skills you guys had to have? Yeah, I mean a lot of guys that I played with would have done well with today's equipment. I think necklace and wife's golf would have been studs today with the equipment. They both hit it so far and launched it so high back then.

They would have been great. There were other guys that would have done very, very well. Watson would have been great in today's equipment all the way through because he always played the ball up. So anybody hit the ball up easy was their natural shot. I mean, I struggled more. I didn't hit it high. I mean, but I hit it low on purpose because I was trying to control it. And really, we all played a little closer. The great drivers back then all played the ball closer to the ground. I mean, Trevino, Me, Hale, Irman, Arnold, guys that really even Nicholas didn't drive it particularly high compared to what you see today. It was higher than say I hit it, but it was on a very direct line. It never was floating.

It was always a hard flight. So, you know, the guys had, they all found clubs. You know, today's deal is you find a club that you can keep in the air with some spin. So you've got it. Back then we had spin. The ball was gonna spin. So it was about getting the loft correct in the driver. You had to learn the face of the driver. You had to know where to hit it on the driver that it would fly a certain way. All right, a quick break here, you guys. Heard me talk about Xander Shoffley

putting a new driver in play for the president's cup and then at the century in Hawaii. When he almost repeated his win from last year, well, that driver is finally actually here. Well, it's not, well, we don't, it's not actually here yet. We don't have him yet. I'm dying to get my hands on it, but actually here yet. We don't have them yet. I'm dying to get my hands on it, but there's a reason we don't have it yet. We're going to talk more about that later at a later date, but they are coming, I promise.

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New distance is out there. It takes a Maverick to find it. So explore the Maverick line of drivers today. CallawayGolf.com, that's CallawayGolf.com. Let's get back to Lanny Watkins. You said something before we started recording here about the development of technology and what you think the most important part of the history development of technology was.

I think the thing that changed golf completely more than anybody wants to. I mean, all you hear today is Nicholas and players dumb at the ball is too hot and goes too far. Well, that would never have happened had, you know, Karsten Solheim. And almost, you know, sometimes to me, I touted as a greedy old man here. I mean, the two people making the most money in golf at the time, Arnold Palmer and Karsten Solheim. And he wants to change it to build, you know, grooves with square grooves. I mean, clubs with square grooves. And you have to understand that we voted on as two

of members way back in the day like 90% of the players 85-90% of the players voted against square groups and explain what's the what what a box group of square group is want to go straight down with straight lines and across where as opposed to a V group and the V groups had to be so far apart well you couldn't play with today's golf ball with the V groups that I played, you know, in the early 70s, middle 70s, if you will. That changed. You could never have had the golf balls you had today if we still played the V groups from that we had, you know, back then. They went back, supposedly, to V groups, but they didn't have the strict rules.

They now have more V groups on the club. They're close together. So they've essentially figured a way to cover the club face with more groups and thus control the ball, you know, today's golf ball. I mean because the square grooves did eventually go away. Was it in 2009, 2010 or something? They did, but like I said, they gave the manufacturers leeway to figure out how to make it work so that it ball flew the same. In other words, you don't rarely see flyers anymore. I mean, if we were in the rough, it was going to fly.

I mean, bad line the fairway, it was going to fly. I mean, it didn't happen today. Yeah. So it is fun to go back and look at clips from the late, like 2009, 2008, that time period. And watch guys hit wedges out of the rough when it's wet and watching it backspin 20 feet. It was like, okay, something needs to be done about this. I just, I look at the changing the grooves and I know what you're speaking to is that they maybe didn't change enough quite as much or it didn't affect things enough.

But I look at that change as it just kind of washed over. It happened. People went on with things. Well, it was a big court case. And I mean, Karsten wanted court case against the tour to keep square what year was this? I don't remember like are we talking way back in the day talking way back whenever You know because it was a court case. Yeah, it was a big court case the fact that he won that case I still understand how you know and that that is the one case that to me speaks that as a tour

We should make our own rules. That one case alone back then, that's when we should have instituted. We already had 80% of the players want V groups. We should have instituted a rule. Okay, he can go make all the square groups he wants, but we have to play V groups on tour. And if guys want to play pink gloves and he's got to make them with V groups. And we should have done that. every other sport has their rules that would have controlled the golf ball the golf ball couldn't have gone as far

afield as it has with the grooves that you know unless the groove situation had changed yeah that makes sense I was more speaking to the more recent change like when the when the groups changed again maybe in 2010 or so I don't remember a big fuss about it wasn't because they let the manufacturers figure out a way around it. I mean I've got a set of clubs back in the last set of Hogan Giants I used that I won with I think and I've got those at home if I looked at those groups compared to the the amount of club face that would be groove free would be way more on the old clubs and today's clubs.

They've got more grooves on the face. They're closer together. They're, you know, they're V-groups, but they're deeper and they're just different than what we had. Yeah. The way a lot of people talk about technology now, they act like it's impossible to change some of these things. When I think, look at a decade ago, they changed groups and it was not that big of a deal when it happened. And they gave them manufactures, like, way to figure it out a way around.

Exactly. So that's what happened. So I was gonna plan to start with this when we got going on a lot of different things, but I wanna go back 1972, you're 22 years old, Saharan Nevada Country Club, take us there, a rookie, rookie on tour,

taking lead, who's nipping at your heels? Well, I mean, yeah, yeah, it was close I actually There's a great story here George Newtson had won the week before at Silverado in Napa, California, okay, and and George was leading me about three shots going to the last round and Vegas at the Sair Invitational And George had a, let's say George liked to drink and party and gamble, okay? Well, they carried him out, they could see him

like three or four times a night for the last round. You know, he'd go up his room, so he'll come back down and gamble, drink some more. I mean, the story's on George Newton or legendary. You know, if you know from that, you know, it was one time he went to the first tee, looked at his tee shots, stood over it, looked at it again,

Been over and picked it up, said not today boys and just walked off. You know, I mean George did stuff like that. He was, he was a guy I love to watch play because he could really strike the ball. So he kind of took himself out of it. He was still in a celebratory mode from the week before. So I ended up, I'm standing on the last tee and I think at the time I had a one shot lead over Palmer and Nicholas. I think Nicholas had it out of bounds on the last hole and maybe he made a big number on the 18th hole. You intimidated Nicholas a lot in your career, look. I didn't think I'd ever intimidated. But we got I got on the 18th hole. I was playing with Art Wall. I remember I was playing

with Art Wall. I'm standing 18. I've got a 6 foot on the par 5 for birdie. And right as I'm getting over the putt, the crowd starts going nuts. Arnold has hit into me. Arnold had a drive, a second shot on the fairway, trying to get on the green in 2 while I'm standing over my putt. And it was a fall shrunk that rolled up on the front of the green and two while I'm standing over my putt and It was a fall shrunk the get rolled up on the front of the green roll back down. So he was a good 80 feet or so from the whole Art wall was so hot. He was he was pissed and he said knock that in He was he was not a fan of Arnold Palmer at that time. He thought it was very rude. I Missed the putt Arnold took three from the front edge and I won by one and Arnold was not happy. You have to understand understand I was on a Palmer scholarship at Wake Forest

I was gonna get to that so I was on the buddy worship moral scholarship I played with Arnold the first time when I was 17 in an exhibition of Richmond So I was on his scholarship. I had won the US amateur in 70 the Wake Forest team I left after my junior year had I stayed that team was absolutely loaded with Jim Simon's daddy Pierce and guys you know we had a had a great team but I I was broke I was married and broken I need to make some money so I turned pro and actually finished third in the original Disney tournament 71 made $8,850 finishing third. Nicholas won, Beeman was second, I tied Arnold for third. That $8850 bucks got me through the winner. I was dead broke. Really? Yes.

So anyway, so he was upset. He was not happy that I cost him a win. And he was upset. He was upset at Ridge and that I hadn't stayed in school. Yeah. So he was not happy on a whole bunch of accounts. And that day was over. I remember reading, I was looking at Ridge and I hadn't stayed in school. Yeah. So he was not happy on a whole bunch of accounts from that day was over. I remember reading that article and about, you know, it talks about you beating Arnold Palmer, fresh off, having the Arnold Palmer scholarship. He had to be looking around like,

wait a second, I kind of created this problem. Well, he was still supposed to be in school according to him. I didn't realize that. Oh, yeah, I was, what would have been my senior at Wake Forest, I was 10th on the Money List on Tour. What was the path to professional golf like back then? I mean, what is, I wanna get to kind of the week to week,

how you guys, how you qualified for Terminets week to week as well, but how did you get to the tour? And how did you know? Well, those qualifying school, I mean, that's it. And the qualifying school, all it did was my Q-school had, we only had one regional, not two.

We had a regional, which I won the regionals at Tanglewood and Winston-Salem. Interesting, I played the first two rounds with Ken Harrelson, the heart. The baseball player. Oh, really? He was in the first round back then. He was in the first round back then.

There you go. DJ's the White Sucks guy. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I played with Ken first two rounds and he actually got to the final of that year. And so, Mark Cool, we had 23 guys in ties and with 23 on the nose that made it. I mean, and that school was me and Tom Watson and John Haffey, David Graham, Leonard Thompson, Alan Millerhood, one everything there was to win his at Amner, he won on tour, a number of other guys that won on tour came

out of that school. So it was probably when you look at Hall of Famers and majors one, that's probably the most successful tour school ever. So you could just sign straight up for Q-school, right? Yeah. You need a qualify or anything like that. No. Just pay a fee and pay a fee.

How many people would be at Q-school back in those days? You know, I don't remember it being there. I think there were only three or four regions around the country. Okay. So it wasn't as big as it is now. And once we got there, the 23 and ties made it, but all that got you was a chance to go Monday, qualified. That's what was a chance to go Monday qualified. That's what I wanted to get to.

All exemptor didn't come into being until the eight early 80s. So how many people were exempt on a tournament to tournament basis? Well, top 60 and ties from the year before. But if you're on the money list. On the money list. But if you were in a tournament, let's say you Monday qualified and you made the cut.

If you made the cut, you were in the next week. Oh, okay. Got you. I was going to wonder how that works because of that. That's the way the weekend. How the heck do you make it there for the Monday call? Exactly. So if you make the cut, you're in the next week.

So and as it started out for me, I had, because I'd won the Ammon and play, well, I had to sponsor the exemption straight to Napa after Q-school, which I missed a cut. Then I had another spot in Vegas. I was friend of his buddy Hackett. We're back in the day. Well, Hackett gave me a spot in the Sahara invitation. And I finished ninth and won my first check or finished ninth, $13,300. What's that worth back then?

How much has that changed? Not changed your life. I was trying to avoid it. I had a guy that wanted to sponsor me and I was trying to avoid having a sponsor. I wanted to do it on my own. And I think between, with all, I made enough money to stay afloat with the 3,300 there. I finished, we played a tournament and I made the cut in all these terms. We had to determine Bahamas, one in North Carolina. I think there were like six tournaments I played in. First when I missed the cut was Napa. Then I made the cut in all the others who played well.

And like I said, Disney, I finished third and one 8,850 bucks. I never forget that. It got me through the winter. That's amazing. So, well, what would a sponsor look like back then? Is it like, are they taking shares of your earnings if you earn it or what it probably percentage? Yeah, okay a lot of guys that started out friends of mine started out with sponsors and as they started playing well

They tried they bought them out and stuff like that because invariably it was cheaper to you know, yeah, if they were good guys now if it was a Guy sponsoring a really, really good player who's gonna be a big star, they didn't wanna give it up. Right, you know, but you know, that's, I had a guy that was a good friend, was gonna take care of me, but I didn't wanna have to do it.

I wanted to be alone. That's, I feel like we should almost do a separate podcast sometime on just like how people finance the beginnings of their careers. I had actually gone and played, I turned pro in after the NCAA or after the Virginia State Amateur maybe and then the very first term that I've played in was the Virginia State Open, BSGA Open.

First prize was a thousand dollars I won. I beat my brother by a shot who was still an amateur. That was at the country club of Virginia in Richmond. I then went to, I played in two tournaments in Maine. The Maine opened in the Bangor open. I drove up there. My buddy loaned me a car to, I didn't have a car to go it far.

So I had to borrow a car to get up there. So I drove up to Maine and I won, I think I won the Bangor Open shooting finished up shooting 64 63 last two days and won by a shot or two and I was runner up in the main open and amateur one and I beat Jim Dent in a playoff for first prize. So both those checks were about 2500 3000 or so between that and the grand that gave me enough money to get through Q School. Well, I'm on a shoestring budget. I'll say what happens if that if that doesn't work out? What are you? What are your options? I had to go sit near one sponsor. Okay, go on that. But yeah, that's what he had already

I was representing a club. He had in Winston, Salem called Bermuda Road and I had a place to live out there because of that. That's what it's more so in your era than today. Travel is more simple now than it was I would say even in the 70s, but you don't have to just be good at your home course. You gotta take your show on the road, learn a course quickly, and beat everybody. Go beat a time I didn't have a tour cat. I mean it was you picking up caddies every week You know what you had and these kids have they all have professional caddies by the time they're playing anything on tour

Yeah, you know like because the deck is just stacked against you to start out Well, the good thing I had going from me is when I won the amateur in 70 I played in you know I was I played in a bunch of pro tournaments as an amateur. The first one being the heritage in 1970 at Hilton Head played that fall. I played, you know, I finished second, Bob Goldby won the tournament. I was, you know, second, and the next pro

was four shots behind me. So, you know, that told me I could play. Then I finished, the other big one, I played in a couple other pro events, I played in the Masters, twice as an amateur, but the other one I played in was the US Open in 71, where Trevino and Nicholas played off. Well, my, one of my college teammates,

was in the last group, Jim Simonons, was leading one of the last round. Well, as an amateur, he played the last group with Trimino. He ended up doubling 18. If he'd birdied 18, he'd have been the plough with Trimino and Nicholas. He doubled 18 and finished fifth. I finished 13th. The big part of finishing 13th there in 1970 was when I turned or I guess it was 71 actually the 71 open

finishing 13th there my rookie year on tour That finish got me in the masters and the US open as a rookie on tour. Wow. I mean, that's huge. Yeah I go to the masters all these old guys. You know, what are you doing here kid? I said you remember that US open thing? So I mean I learned my way in there. You know, your first masters that your first time at Augusta. I went, we went down and played before. Okay. We had a Wake Forest alumnus that was actually Clifford Roberts tax attorney and lived in Augusta. Got named James Johnson and Jim Simons and I were both in the Masters.

Actually, the first grade was just me the second year of Simon as I went and played. But I went down, once you're in the tournament, you can go play. You don't have to be with a member, but you have to let them know you're coming. I think I'll play there beforehand. But I had great practice rounds.

I knew some of the guys, I'll play with Arnold and practice round play with Sam Sneed in a practice round. So I mean, it was in my very first round of the gust of indeterminate. I played with Jackie Burke. The one thing I remember about that round was I got on the second hole. I was standing by the bunker at two right in the hill and I'm waiting on the people in the green and Jackie says, go ahead, son, you're not going to bother me. I said, okay, Mr. Burke and I whipped this three with the one right between Tony Jacqueline's

legs while I was putting And a nice shot. So I think you better go apologize Thanks a lot, Mr. Burke Did you tell when you got up there? Did you tell if I was I was told I could go? Oh, yeah Then the coolest thing was the second round. I got paired with Gene Sarasin So I played in the Masters with Gene Sarasin. This was 1970, I was an amateur. And I had enough presence of mine that when I got to 15, I said, Mitch Sarasin, would you walk across your bridge with me? Think about that. If that been today, it'd be on YouTube somewhere, I'd actually have a record

of it. But 1970, there wasn't any such thing things, but I play with I walked across the Sarah's and bridge with Gene Sarrow, Lucy in the Masters had to be late 70s, 80s, I was the soon. Wow, that's, that's amazing. What it's a, you remember he shot 74 that round, he played very well. Shot is age, I don't know what his age was, but I remember he shots, I remember I shot beat him, but it wasn't that much. What, you had a lot of success at Augusta National. It was in a very tight time frame into the 90s. What, did something click for you at that golf course in that time period?

What was it? Yeah, I quit trying to do what everybody said you should do and hit it below the whole hit in places. And I just played my game. I was more aggressive off the T's on sight lines and I went at every flag instead of trying to put it on the fat part of the green and put that pill. I figured out that I could make way more downhill six footers. I don't get how fast it were than I would uphill 20 and 30 footers and I started

having good finishes. Almost every description I can find of your game by anyone that ever watched you play. And of course we've never actually seen you play, but it is the aggressiveness and the firing at flags and the fearlessness that came with your game. Well, is that something you always had? I think a lot of it goes back to my roots. The course I grew up on in Richmond was had very, very small grains. And I think I just got into the point of going at the flag because the greens were so small and so severe off the edges, they were push up greens. So if you missed a green, it was a tough chip bouncing into a bank and popping it up, stuff like that.

So I think from day one, it was the only way to shoot a score. I was never a great putter. I wish I'd been a better putter. I actually got my putting straightened out by Phil Rogers about 1981 and then I had a great run on tour after that starting in 82. You know, one three times 82, two and 83, three more in 85. And a lot of that credit to Phil for helping me, the mistake I made was I thought, okay, I've got the deal I thought I could do it on my own I should have been back to fill about twice a year for refresher courses and

what did you struggle with stuff yeah I'm just you know probably uh I just missed I missed too many I had so many makeable putts I just didn't make enough of it you know because I hit so many good iron shots. It was kind of like I never took advantage of and when the putter was hot on one. Would your playing, like the other top pros on tour, would they, would they rib you about your putting, was that like a back moment?

No, Johnny Miller used to, you know, he made fun of my stroke when our first came out. Yeah. He said, yeah, it looks like some kind of muni mallard putting stroke. Yeah. Yes. What's the shit?

I wouldn't teach that shroked anybody. He made fun of it. What's your, do you have a go to Johnny Miller story? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, we played, we had the same manager when I came on tour. Johnny Miller, Jerry Hurd, JC Sneed, and myself, all of this, even Sam Sneed, Greer Jones, Jim Simons.

So we all played a lot of practice rounds, a lot of outings together. Well, Herd not played with Miller all the time. And Miller even back then, before every shot in their practice round, he was like, well, I'm going to hit this five feet left of the hole, it's going to fall to the right and be, you know, right in their perfect stuff. And he would describe shots before he hit him in practice rounds.

So we started calling him the man with the plastic arm, always patting himself on the back. I can tribute that one to Jerry Hurd because he basically called Johnny the man with the plastic arm. But Johnny was and still is to this day in my mind the best I ever saw play for a period of time. Well, that much better than just that period is so good. His natural shot with his release and the grip as weak as it was and left hand and where he put the club He just hit it dead straight So he and he knew he if he hit it solid it was going to go what you want offline So he just aimed at every flag. I mean look the numbers he shot for years

It was incredible from what I've heard from people the way at the best way to describe it is like guys like Palmer and Nicholas by the way, the best way to describe it is like guys like Palmer and Nicholas and player and those had longer sustained success. But like the best stretch and maybe he didn't even get the most out of it during that stretch of it was that the people have seen played was Johnny Miller. I guess that's a good analogy. Yes, no question. He, you know, and for who knows why? I don't think he was ever a good putter.

Despite the scores he shot, he just hit it so close. I know at least two times. I know one time in NAPA and one time I was by my limit, Hilton head, then he made holes in one the last round. I mean, that didn't happen once in a career or ever. When you're leading the last day, he did it at least twice, maybe more Yeah, I mean that's how good his iron shots were I mean it was you know holy stuff whatever we we've heard like back in the day Necessary when you when you were on tour that like rookies would be intimidated by you. Why do you think that would be? I have no idea. I mean I wasn't I was never out to try and intimidate anyone But if that was another club in my bag, then it would be,

I mean, if it gave me an edge, I would take it. It was a little bit more cutthroat out there back then, because you're playing twofold. You're playing number one to stay on tour, and you're playing number two to live. Hey, bills and put food on the table. I mean, I look at the checks I won, when I beat Arnold by a shot, I won 26,000.

When I won the Byron Nelson at Preston Trail in 1973, I won 35,000. When I won the PGA in 77, I won 45,000. I said I've record my rookie year for money won by a rookie at like $116,000. That was with the win in four seconds. In 73, I won like 205,000. That was a record for a second year player. That was with two wins, about four seconds, and 14 top tens.

And I'll put that in today's figure. So you'd have about $7 million. But I won 200,000. Did it feel like a lot of money? Oh, yeah. When about $7 million, but I won 200,000. Did it feel like a lot of money? Oh yeah, when you came from nothing, which I did, it seemed like a lot of money. Well what is your background? We kind of glanced past your early age. I got rich from Virginia.

My dad was a truck driver. Essentially, my mom, school teacher, later we came to Graham School principal. They probably never made 30,000 years between them. Grouped in a house with my parents, grandparents, three kids, one bathroom. So I mean, it was not blue blood. My dad had gotten into golf when he came back from World War II. He only had a high school education.

When he was gone all week driving trucks were working. I didn't get to see him. Now he was playing golf on weekends. So I said, Dad, and when I was about seven years old, I started pulling his cart at a public golf course. And I said, this looks like a cool game. So he got me a set of clubs. We started. They joined a brand new club on the South Side of Richmond Metaburg Country Club.

I think it was 250 bucks to join. And the pro there, love kids, took my brother and I under his wing. And that's where we spent all our days all summer long. We was just playing golf. Were you in natural then? I don't know but in natural probably I was I was a good athlete and I also had I think the competition added to it. We had a bunch of kids in our clinic probably 10 kids that played and all played pretty well and it was pretty competitive. Plus you throw the fact that my brother was there and and we're 18 months apart in age, and he played full time. So, you know, think of that competition.

You always want to beat your little brother. So, as he got better, and I mean, when I won the Virginia State Amateur, 36-hole final match play, I beat my brother in the finals. That's awesome. I won my very first pro-check ever one, the Virginia Virginia State Open by one shot over my brother. So I mean, you know, we played a lot of rounds together and Bobby was very, very good. This is a question that I've asked a decent amount of players and I never seem to go to good answer, but I'm going to keep asking it. There's a time point you go from playing, you know, the Virginia State Open to, you know, you're beating Arnold Palmer and Jack Nichols on tour. So there's a lot of things that happen between that I think. So at what

point do you realize how good you are? Because I imagine when you're playing the Virginia State Open you don't think like I'm going to be one of the top you know whatever 5-10 players on tour but you had that potentially. I already felt that. I already felt that. You did, okay. I felt it when I was at Wake Forest. I had enough success. I mean, in college at Wake Forest, I made my first Walker Cup team as a freshman at Wake. I won the Southern Amateur when I was 18 years old before I ever went to Wake for the first time.

And in the 70, I won the Western Amateur, the Southern Amateur, the US Amateur, you know. Yeah. I won a better thing. I had a year where I won everything I played in. the western amateur, the southern amateur, the US amateur. You know, I wanted about everything. And I had a year where I won everything I played and if I didn't win it, I was running it up. So, I mean, as an amateur, that was pretty good. So, and then the fact that when I finished second at the heritage in 70, two things about that,

the fact that I finished second, okay, I'd already won the amateur. But the last round of that event, I played with Arnold Palmer, here's Arnold again, and Bob Murphy, and I double-bogged the 11th toll and shot 68th the last round, playing with Arnold as a 20-year-old kid, okay, in a PGA tour event. Well, if I can do that, then I know what I in my mind, I had no doubt I could go do it. Yeah. What he say anything to you after that round. You can remember. Just nice playing kid. I was about it.

Captain simple, what let's talk about the USM. Where did, where did you win the USM? What year? I wanted it way really country club in Portland, Oregon, 1970. I capped off a big year for me. I'd, you know, like. I'd mentioned I won the Southern, the Western, had been runner up in sunny Hanup, port of cup, runner up in the NCAA. I had a really good year, played in the Masters already. So it was just a really good year all the way around. It was down, it was kind of, it were a couple of really, three or four really good players. Khrinchal was just starting to come into his own that year. He wasn't a factor. I think he missed the cut.

But he had Alan Millerhood won his third straight transmissive match play. Tom Kite was right there. Seemed like every time Tom played well, I beat him. I beat him in the semi-finals of the Western Amon. He was running up to me at the Southern. And then at the US Army, it was he and I the you know the last two days essentially I was five back going to the 54th hole par five he makes bogey I hold a

seven-yard wedge for three and I only two back so then I buried two and three to start the next day and we were just back and forth the whole day and we I had him about one shot, going to 18. He's got a six footer for birdie. I had 20 footer and I made it. I won by a shot. When I asked earlier if you had a good memory of all the shots, he sounds like he's pretty much. Certain ones, I have a good memory. Yeah.

Well, before we slide into, I want to talk to talk about some your broadcasting career and whatnot, which the longer we talk about your playing career, I'm sure my comment on saying, my generation knows you as a broadcaster has to just be like, what the hell man? Because you played it, you had at least 20 starts for 25 consecutive seasons on PGA. Yeah, and I don't know, but how many starts? I know that I got 21 tour wins.

I think 22 seconds, something like, you know, I think it's like 56 top three. I don't know, there's a number near somewhere. It was just something. 692 career starts and yeah, 56 finishes in the top three and you made 486 cuts in your career, which is, yeah, the amount of years and the travel and all the stuff that goes into it beyond the road. Well, the longevity of it, and the fact that I fought so many injuries through it, what I did, you know, because of that.

I mean, I had different things and I never thought myself as an injury prone, but, you know, even early on had some. Yeah, because you had a, like, what gallbladder surgery? Gallbladder appendix in 74. What's that, what surgery like in the 70s? Well, gallbladder, I mean, well gallbladder I mean, I remember Johnny Miller had it done Years later had his gallbladder taking that and he was done laparoscopically and he like

Played in a Canadian open two weeks later. Mm-hmm. I was in the hospital two weeks I've got a ten inch scar in my abdomen where they cut through me to get it out It took him my gallbladder appendix back there I mean were you is it nerve-wracking thing to go, I mean, these days, I shared just what it was. I mean, I had no choice. It was, I never had, I knew I had some issues with that, but I remember the, I had a gall bladder attack,

which was basically a gall stone slipped into the duct. And that happened to me. I was in a hotel room by myself at Disney, at the Polynesian Hotel. I'm playing with Aaron Palmer and the team championship. That was probably one of the coolest weeks of my life. And I wasn't about to let that stop me, but it hit me at about five in the morning.

And for the two or three hours, I couldn't reach the phone three feet of waiting car Everybody for help. I was just doubled over and could not move physically move and I played that week and the cool thing was I was I mean I played with Arnold every day as my partner. Arnold Power was my partner for seven straight days Geez, I mean and that was that's probably the one time and we'd played a lot of golf by that time together money games and and whatever you but that week was you played with somebody that may days and row you see what makes him great. Yeah, even though he was still I mean, he wanted to turn on two and seventy three so he could still really play. Yeah, I've read a story

somewhere about you know, you guys playing money games and there was a day on tour you guys played a 36 hole day Perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was it was the game We had a standard game was Bert Yantz and I played Wyscroft and Palmer and we had a standard We but it wasn't big money. It was You know $20 automatic one-downs, but we also played the other two guys the same bet So everybody had three of those bets going. And we needed an accountant to figure this stuff out, going with us.

But Jansi and I, it was a great year, 73. I had a good year, Wyskoff had his big year. He was playing great. Jansi was playing great. And Arnold had a win that year, so he was playing well. So the quality of golf was outstanding. But Jansi and I always seem to get in their pocket. Bert Yancey was the best part and you could ever have because I don't think you ever missed a

putt inside 12 feet. Really? No, so it was any hit every fairway. So it was, and I made a lot of Bertie. So we were a good team. We played a Hilton head tee off about 10 like we normally did, and we won Arnold said, we're gonna go to emergency nine. Well if the King says you're gonna play an emergency nine you go if we play nine more we beat him again. We're going nine more. I said we got to get him for it get stark. I don't care we're going nine more. So you beat him on the last nine two. We beat him the last time. We'll quit the last. Play the last two holes in the dark. But we beat him. Yes.

Oh, that's a great story. Don't see too many 36 hole runs these days. You mentioned something we, that be glanced over for the PGA Championship, the playoff here. It sounded like you had a good story to tell regarding that one. Well, as we're going down the first fairway, I told you the gallery roads were down. It was out of control.

Lillard and I both hit four, which is up one at Pebble Beach in the fairway and I go to I had a caddy and by name of Ralph coffee and Ralph tended to stutter just a little bit So I said Ralph what we got Ralph couldn't get it out. He couldn't talk He was so nervous from this with the study. I said Ralph write it down So he had to write the yardies down. You talk about the conversations, Caddy's head today. I had to have my caddy write down the yardies on the first hole of the playoff.

Did that make you more nervous? No, it probably loosened me up because I was laughing at him. So I was fine. I hit it right over the flag over the green. I actually made a 15 footer for par to stay alive on the first hole down the hill. I think Littler thought he had it won. He had a tap in for his par. He did it on the green. Then we both hit it on the second hole in two par five and we both two put it for birdies. I actually hit the hole for eagle and he ran it about four feet behind made it coming back. And then three, we hit

good drives and he hit it over the green and I he hit it short of the green and I hit it over the green And walking on the green I saw his lie and it was gnarly grass growing into him I knew he had no chance of getting close from that lie and I had I didn't have a good lie But I galloped it down about six feet. He left about 15 missed it I made mine in one PGHM. He's forty five thousand dollars. They got you a rider cup spot It did that was the one thing they told us on the first tee said, by the way, whichever one of you guys wins today is going to be on the Ryder Cup team 77. You will knock Al Guyberger off the team.

So Al was gone no matter what. And neither Littler or myself was going to be on the team. They said that before the playoffs. Yeah. Told us on the first tee. Like you didn't have enough pressure on you as it was. You know what, it was kind of cool to know, but ended up being a great team to be on. I played on a Router Cup team with Jack Nicholas

in Don January. I had Hail Irma on that team, Ed Sneed. Watson and I were the babies. We're both, I think, 26 or seven at that Router Cup. So. And that was your first one. Yes. My favorite. Ed Lillim Saynans, which was outstanding. You have a, we got to talk. So that was your first one. Yes. My favorite, it lived them say nands, which was outstanding.

You have a, we got to talk about your ace on the first hole. It lived them too. But my favorite part of that win too is you got a 10 year exemption with that PGA championship win. I won three tournaments in a space of 18 months that each one on was a 10 year exemption. Did they run concurrently or is that all they did?

I won the PGA in 77, two or three weeks later, I won the World Series of Golf, which was also a 10-year exemption at Firestone, where I won by five shots, so I've got a wife's golf and an Irwin, and then I won the players in 79, which was another 10-year exemption. He's 10-year exemption. Go all three of those, carried it by all I ended up getting was obviously the players, but I never really needed it, because I played well to the stretch. God, that's absolutely crazy.

When did you know you wanted to get into broadcasting? And was that something you always thought of? And when did you know it was time to do it? I never knew that I wanted to. I assume that I was just going to go play Champion Store Senior Tour and you know that was going to be it. Just plays along as I could play there and and called it called a day. I took over for Dave Marr senior that he used to do the we had a Champions Clinic at the PGA and

Dave and I think it was 97 the year that Dave is loved when it went for it. that he used to do the, we had a champion's clinic at the PGA. And Dave, and I think it was 97, the year that David's love won at Wingfoot, Dave had cancer and could do it. And he said, have Lanny do it. He can do the job so they had me be the MC of the champion's clinic. Jim Nance was watching that one or the next year. I started doing the clinic every year for quite a while That was a fixture about at the PGA back was it past champions clinic that we all showed up We all did it that guys wouldn't show up today and do it But we all came and hit shots and goofed around had a big time

um And Jim Nance saw me doing it one year and in the city, you ought to be doing TV. That's really first time you thought it was first of my ever thought about it. And then I was playing the senior tour and I won my first start. Then I had elbow issues my first year, my right and second year in my left elbow. So it was kind of like, I don't like being heard again And the Venturi is about to retire. I guess Jimmy must have mentioned me and they came to me and I said, okay. Yeah.

What was it like replacing Venturi who'd done it for so long? Well, he was an icon and I mean a wonderful man. Somebody we all looked up to and respected and not just as announcing career, but as golf career and what he went through to be such a great champion. Kenny Venturi was a special person. One of the guys I work with today, John Cook, idolized his Venturi.

He was his teacher and mentor growing up and John's got great stories about Kenny. I knew him, mostly through broadcasting and we had always gotten along. But I never really got to see him play. So I missed that part of it. But it was it was an honor, honestly. And it was I thought I would be there. You know, if I you told me I was only going to be doing it five years at CBS, I probably never would have done it. I thought it was going to be there 20 years because I had to essentially give up my champion, my senior tour, champions tour, career to do that.

When you started it, was there an indication that you were going to be doing it for 20 years and what happened? Yeah, it was good. Why were you only there five years, I guess, is the way I was doing it? And you have to ask some suit in New York and figure that out, so I don't know, but I know that when I left, I had three years after my contract. It's significant money, more money than I had ever made playing golf. I was going to say it was, what makes it very appealing

to be a broadcast? Well, it is. I was thinking, family-wise, longevity, I'm going to be home worth my boys. I was an older dad of my boys when they're, I was in my 40s when they were born. Well, at least one of my second one. They were born in 87 and 92.

So, I got to be home more with them, watch them grow up and play. They both played golf and college, won it Wake Forest, won it Arizona. That was a big attraction to it. And I can still play something. I mean, CBS only did 18. I had time to go play maybe half a dozen

to 10 Terms a year if I wanted to. What's the time commitment for the TV compared to a time commitment for playing on the tour? I mean, you're able to cut a couple days here and there. Yeah, when I play a CBS, I mean, it was, I'd go weeks without playing. I think that, I mean, because that was, we had stretches where we were working and it was, you know, I didn't really work a lot of Thursday friday's. I was most of the weekend. So, but it was, I didn't really work a lot of Thursday friday as I was most of the weekend So but it was I was always there on the course and looking and working and They don't give you much help you come in there and you know You're expected to do with what everybody does after a while naturally and it was it was learning

Learning it was a. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning.

Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning.

Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. Learning. helped me. When I worked with Billy, we'd go to Tower a couple hours ahead of time and said, you need to Billy or Brandon to do this and do that and try and work at stuff. I think it took a while. I do know that at the end of the six, when we finished the PGA, Jim Nance came to me and said, you and I have hit our stride where exactly where I think we need to be. You're going to be great for Maryland out. Well, that was the last word

I ever did with him. And so that's where it's a confusing story. In reading about it, it's the, you know, CBS, there's a statement. I don't know where the statement comes from, but it says you want to go back to focusing on champions to almost as if like it was your indication that you wanted to do that. Then at the same time, there's a now quotes from you that says you were completely blindsided by it. Oh, everybody was. Lance Barrow was, Jimmy Nance was, I was, I always thought it was kind of peculiar, because I mean, Jim Nance is the voice of CBS sports. Well, they changed his lead analyst

and two sports that year without asking him. Really? It took me away and it took Billy Parker away from basketball. But Clark Keller and then, you know, Fowldoin. So was it more to do with just, they had a window to get Fowldoin and they knew they wanted them or you really don't know. I think the one of those hard.

You know, Fowldo at the time actually had a handshake deal done with NBC and Renegged on that to sign the NBC deal when I had still had three years left. And I was giving the option, but I wasn't going to. I was signed on to be lead analyst. That's all I was going gonna do and that was it. So they bought me out. Are you, were you better about the way that everything went down

or is it an amicable split? I don't know that it was amicable. I would, you know, I mean, like I said, if I had known I was only gonna do it, you know, five years, five and a half years or so, I probably would not have done it. I thought it was gonna be something I was gonna do for 20 years.

I felt like Jimmy said, he said, we, you know, it took me a couple of years to settle in and start feeling comfortable. I mean, when you've got two different things you want to own your head, you've got to say something coherent on the air and make sense. It doesn't come naturally.

No, that's what I, people, we are often pretty critical of broadcasts and whatnot. And I want always, whenever I get a chance to be clear, I say, I don't want that job. Like, it's difficult. It's easy to sit on a podcast and talk for long periods of time. You're not up against any time.

There's no one in your ear, but that job is like, okay, go. And a lot of what you say is dictated about what's coming from your producer. Yeah or someone else You know, you may not be able to get to where you want to go with something because something's already pre-planned They want to show a tape shot or something else. So it's not all in your court You know, you're not in control. Yeah, it's and when you are when it's your turn It's almost like pointed to you. You might I'm not saying you're not ready But it's like all right go's almost like pointed to you. You might, I'm not saying you're not ready, but it's like, all right, go beyond, and you gotta say something insightful.

Well, and not only that, the other thing that has come, and I think I'm pretty good at it, is getting out when I need to. In other words, because all of a sudden, I'll be in the middle of something that's, I think, pretty important, and you'll hear commercial in 10. And you've gotta wrap it up in two seconds,

so Bob Papa can take it to commercial. Yeah, I mean, that's, so that, man, you've gotta be able to end whatever you're saying in about two seconds and come out of it. Did you have a particular or do you have? Because you're obviously doing the Champions Tour with Golf Channel now. Do you have a particular philosophy or approach to announcing? I mean, it's obviously you're in the booth for your application of your years of playing professional golf, but did you have a mindset or a philosophy towards golf?

Never did. Just to be honest. I mean, I always, I don't think you, you know, with what the guys are playing for these days and what's expected, I don't think you're up there to sugarcoat or be massive fans of what they're doing. Now, I can be a fan of a player and I can, you know, give him all the accolades that, you know, he deserves while he's playing. But at the same time, if he makes mistakes,

that I think as a player, he shouldn't make that make cause an event or something, I think you got to call him out on it. I think that's part of the job. It's a tough battle. You can't be afraid to, you know, say negative things about your friends or people you've played with for doing

champions to her stuff. I've been playing against a lot of these guys since I've been 16 years old. So it's, you know, and I still get along with them, I think. I was going to say I'm not sure in some cases, but have you had any feedback from anyone or anybody, any relationship to get set? No, I don't think I've had any that are, you know, any any any big things. And I mean, I still get a long grape, for example, with Bernhard Langer. Now, I, you know, I will say it, you know, to everybody, I think he's a, you know, one

of the greatest players ever played in his work ethic and what he's done. But I will call him out on slow play and decisions and the yippie-ness of his chipping and a heartbeat. I mean, I'm not gonna back off on that right And I don't think just because he's a great player. I don't think gives him the right to be that slow Mm-hmm. I was a fast player fast players are the ones that always adjust I Adjust to what the players around me are doing. I have to I don't have a choice Slow players play their game. They don't care. They do. It looks to us faster players. I say us. I mean, guys like me and Watson and Fuzzy and guys that have always moved along and played at a pretty good pace. Trivino, if you will.

It looks to us like they don't care. They're going to play their pace. Come hell or high water. You pay the price. Unless somebody puts them on the clock in which case they always speed up Mm-hmm. So to me that's them being inconsiderate. Yeah, I mean that's that's my philosophy on that slow players are the inconsiderate ones I saw article recently said fast players are inconsiderate. How the hell are we inconsiderate? You know we're getting on with it doing our job It's just there's no monkey business. There's the ball. There's a hole hit the shot. There might be too many takes in golf if we're at the point. I would love to see the fast players I would love to see The Greens book school away. Okay. I was gonna that's next question

I love see Greens books. I mean watching Greens books and I'm watching When I was watching the presence cup I'm watching these kids reading the Greens books. That's part of golf is reading Greens. That's an innate ability, something you learn how to do and read the grain, the contours, where the fall light is, where the water's going off, the whole deal.

You've got to know that stuff. You know, number one, and number two, then I would only allow one book for a player in Kennedy. I watch Langer and Terry Holt and they both have books. And if Terry says something and Langer says something and very, well, Terry will always go, we'll go with what you got. Then why don't you need the other book? If that's what they're always going to go with Langer's book, why don't you just have

the one book per group and make it quicker? You ever see Nicholas or Tiger look at a Greens book ever? Wow. I never thought of that. Thank you, but I never thought of that. You ever see Tiger carry a book? Never have. You know, maybe the greatest player of all time.

I'm still going to call him Nicholas the greatest player ever, but I'm sitting here. You watch Tiger. Who's got the book? His caddy. That's interesting. Tiger doesn't need a book and doesn't need a grain book. Why the hell, you know, should everybody else have it? I do think you touched on it there with the greens book.

I think like 90% of slow-play problems in golf are on the greens. I think that there's the green speed contributes, and when you're in threesomes, and that whole ax is like a toll booth, and all three cars got to go through it, and you can only put one through at a time, and there's almost no gimmies at the green speed

that they play on. No, with green speeds, I mean, when I won the amateur, I thought the greens were wavily with the fast side ever seeing they were probably nine or 10. Yeah, and I mean, I saw a replay of the putt I made it 18. It was 20 feet. I took the putter back almost waist high. And it looked like hitting this putt from 20 feet.

Well, today would be a little tap. Mm-hmm. So I mean, yeah, it's definitely difference. And the people stand over more three and four footers. But it's also, I mean, I preached to my boys from day one. The only reason you three putt is poor speed. I don't think you can hit it far enough off line to three putt. If your speed's correct, you're not gonna three putt.

You're gonna just walk up, tap it, and move on. We could challenge you all on that last part. But one thing you noted, kind of bringing a couple things together here about being critical players when you have to be a recent incident that happened on the Champions Tour regarding Billy Mayfair. Can you set the scene for what happened for those that aren't familiar with it and how you went about addressing it? It puts us in a tough spot as the announcement was when something like that happens.

What happened if you could stand there? Well, basically what happened to put the whole thing right out there was we come on and saw in 17, and Billy Mayford is getting ready to play a pitch. He's missed the green left and the high left on the slope, pretty severe slope. I've been there, and as he's going up to it from what we see, the ball moves.

And then he turns, there was an official, and an official comes up and he tells the official, said, I didn't get anywhere near it. I had the club hovering above the ball, the ball rolled. And officials, I don't know if he said play it or, you know, put it back, whatever ball, you know, no penalty. Well, we go to commercial, come back and then I'll produce this. You got to see this. We've got, we had the camera on Billy the entire time. He stuck the club in under the ball twice

with his right hand. I mean, no question that he grounded the club and caused the ball to move. That's two shots. So I mean, but he also blatantly lied to the official, which to me is egregious. Now he ended up being disqualified for a ruling, for something he did earlier in the round,

which really tops it off. He lost the ball in 11. They looked for it for five minutes and right at right before five minutes, they found the ball. He played the whole and played out and finished with that ball and went and teed off the next soul with 12. The problem with all that is today's rule is three minutes. So at three minutes, that

ball is abandoned. So he never really finished that hole and went and played another one, say he was just qualified for that ruling earlier in that round. And then the other one on top of that, that's just blatant. I don't know how you get around it any other way. But it's just, I mean, you sit, he knows you stuck the club and there he turns around and tells the official was never there and it was hovering. Ah, do you think that's something that runs and there's a whole another layer to that and that he, I think he claimed he didn't know the new rule was three minutes and then there's quotes from the past where he is talking about the new rule or three minutes and he,

so do you think that there are a lot of inconsistencies there? There's no question. Yeah, and that's where it's now a good look. If I'm Billy Mayfair, I'm gonna be really uncomfortable coming out playing next year. That's kind of where I wanna get to next too with, I've always maintained, maybe I've kind of fallen into the PR spin

of when players call penalty on themselves. Everyone is very quick to praise them and it makes it look like everyone in golf is following the rules, absolutely perfect at all times. And even if no one is watching, they will call a penalty on themself. And the more stuff that happens, like this incident and what recently happened

with Patrick Reed just makes me think, like, whoa, what is going on out there? Because it's like these scarlet letter in golf is to be called a cheater. No question, and I will take on the Patrick Reed thing. I had a huge issue with the Australian players calling him a cheater, really, down at yes. And now I'm not, I don't, you know,

I know there's some history somewhere with Patrick Reed, I don't know all the ins and outs of what it is, but if he says he didn't see the sand move, you take him at his word, but then as soon as he saw it on tape, you know He knew he said up. I didn't know I did that. Okay. That's penalty So it it was okay Then was there was a rules and fraction just like it hit it in the hazard and he was penalized for it It should be move on to me. That's not cheating cheating is a guy from my Q school

that got in a tournament. I think it was New Orleans and that got in a tournament. I think it was New Orleans. And he was missing the cut. The other two competitors, this is a kid from Columbia that made our Q school. He erased and changed two scores so that he made the cut. And the other players he was playing was seeing it. What's he doing playing? He missed the cut. And they go back and sure enough they see the erration. That's cheating. He was He missed the cut. And they go back and sure enough, they see the iteration. That's cheating. He was banned from the tour, banned from the South American tour.

That's cheating. That's not, you know, breaking a rule is breaking a rule and you get penalized for it and you move on. That's all right. You know, everybody can have their own thoughts about Patrick Reed, but essentially all he did was break a rule

and he got penalized for it. He didn't cheat because he was penalized for it. He didn't cheat because he was penalized for breaking a rule. And that's where my, I was very careful like in the way we phrase the discussion too of why I did think it was cheating because I know his word says that he didn't know that he did that, but you watch the tape and it's professional golfers touch and feel is unbelievable. I mean, the things that you can feel, now if it's something, if he's in a bunker and he takes the club and it grazes the sand

on his way back and he doesn't see. I don't know how much he, from his angle, now the camera angle is from behind the club. So whatever moves is, we're gonna see it and he's up above it and whatever's moving, well his club head is in the way of that. So he may not see it. They feel it, I don't know. That's it.

Yeah. It's just a tough scenario all around. It's a weird, there's no right answer to it, right? Because I think by the biggest technicality and the letter of the law, he served his punishment on that, but a lot of other people see it very differently. And if that's the kind of thing that is happening on tour, that I think is an issue.

If it's that blatant, and it's that obvious with a camera right there, that's the thing. Well, and the other thing that happens, and I've always felt, you know, one of the tough things, is why I really have always disagreed with people calling in, because only the people on camera

that's all that's subject to that scrutiny. And if every player on every shot was subject to that scrutiny, okay, then so be it. But that's not the case. I mean, there are probably things that happened. I mean, Patrick Reed, for example, if he had done that and it had been on TV, nobody would have ever known it.

And he, and honestly, given the benefit of the doubt, he may not have known that he did it. Yeah. I mean, I'm just saying, I mean, if you look at, you think, you know, it moves a little bit of sand, but if your club's there and the sand's moving as it goes back then the sand is done this moving is underneath the club I mean I wouldn't I didn't see the sense in grinding the club in a way that loud was so bad all you could do is gouge it out it made no sense he wasn't you know whatever a little bit of sand he moved didn't make the shot

easier yeah okay what uh I'm just saying right or wrong I mean mean, I'm just saying. No, no, I understand. Yeah, that's where it's like, to me, that's a rules and fraction. Yeah, I understand, I definitely see that. I think. I think people are using it. It's hard to improve. In 10 is so hard to prove.

And when you combine some other stories that are out there about them, it's hard to think that he's not capable of that. So he loses some of the benefit of that out in my mind, I think, but that's a separate discussion. But you've, you main reason why we're here, you know, we want to talk to you about the Ryder Cup. You've had an extremely storied Ryder Cup career.

And you know, it's kind of indicative, not indicative, I guess, of a lot of your career, but just kind of something for my generation. You got to really seek some of these things out to know about them such as the 1983 Ryder Cup at PGA national take us to what happened there down the stretch and Who the hero that one was well? It was it was basically down to We needed the last two Americans on the course were Tom Watson and myself. Watson's playing Bernie Gallagher. He's too up and too to play. He needs to win. I'm

one down playing 18. And I've had a match. I'm playing Jose Maria, kind of Zaris. I've had a match I should have beat him five and four. I mean, he hold it from all over the place. First holds a great example. I had a six footer for birdie. He's got a 50 footer for par. We tie the hole. I mean, that happened all day long. I'm going down going to 16. I hit two iron 12 feet behind the hole. He is sitting the lake to the right. The ball is moving in the water and he chops it out of the water on the green 40 feet holes it. I missed a 12 footer. We tie that hole. I actually made a six footer at 17 to stay alive. Jeez. So I mean all this is going on, we get to 18 and then they get the whole, everybody is there and say you have to win this hole for us to win.

And I've got the whole team there except for Watson. I mean I got Fuzzy and Curtis and Kite and J-Hoss. They're all there. You know, watching the club and Jack's yeah, he's not intimidating at all. I had a really good drive at 18. I actually hit it past Kenna's RS. He hit three wood and this, the hole back then is a little different than it is now. There was a bit of water, he had to head over the corner or he could lay up short and head a longer shot in there.

He hit a great three wood, so it kind of forced me into being aggressive anyway. And I remember I hit three wood second shot right over the corner of the water. It's hammered it and Curtis strange starts yelling my ball, get up, get up. I said don't worry, it's solid. So I mean, so I had 72 yards left to the flag.

Geno's ours was away. He kind of hit it fat to the front edge of the green. And then I had 72 yards and a whole location back up on top full ridge. And I drove a little low 56 degree sandwich in there, skipped it right back to a bit of foot. And game set and match. One the rider cup. It was there.

It was there. We won 14, I have 13, I have. Most nervous you've ever been over a shot? Probably, although I've always thought that my pace of play helped me in situations like that. A lot of times before I could think of the magnitude of what I'm doing, I've already hit the shot. There are times in my career that I hit a shot. I'd be sitting there thinking, man, I need to make Bernie to win or I've got to hit this close and

halfway through thinking about that, I never mind. The ball's already near going into flag. You know, I hit it on, I hit it a lot of times on autopilot. I played that fast. I think that was one of those shots. I saw what I wanted to do. I knew the shot I wanted to hit and then just I Kind of did it before I knew what I was doing So if you will I was nervous, but I will say this I took that shot That I was probably the most nervous. I've ever been hitting any shot was that one And I've channeled that and the my career later that if I can do that I can handle anything else It comes down the line. Let's say your reaction after that was just a look of just determination and just it wasn't really even relief

It was just like yeah, it's kind of like and I went I remember going up to the edge of the green kite slap me on the back And way to go. I want to say something nothing came out really. Yeah, it was kind of wild And I must admit that that was the best celebration of all time with Nicholas that night It was okay. Well, let's stop right there Then what was what did that what then. What did that look like? It started when Fuzzy grabbed a mag and a champagne in the team room and sprayed the crowd. It became an instant wet t-shirt contest for the wives. I mean, it was, I grabbed a bottle of champagne.

If you remember who Joe Blackwell was with a PGA, very stage straight. I grabbed him behind the collar, poured the whole bottle of champagne down his back. We're drinking from the Ryder Cup. Nicholas Water boarded his barber with the Ryder Cup. I mean, he's like, you know, it's full of champagne. Barbara, have a sip of from the Ryder Cup, sure. And he, as she took the sip he grabbed her head and dumped the whole thing I mean it was it was Jack Nick let's yeah Jack water-borted barber with the rider cup I mean it was a damn Miss thing you've ever seen so it was it was good stuff but it was had a picture of Jack with a champagne cork in his mouth

holding the cup I mean it was it was some really cool stuff from that, it was quite a party. The damn thing was, we all went and cleaned up, we destroyed this suite at PGA. You know, we go to the dinner, we come back, this suite is, they've cleaned it up, it's perfect. And we went, we went at it again. I remember the Karen Crenshaw and Laney on his bed. Really? Yeah.

I mean, literally, he couldn't talk. I mean, it was quite a night. It was the hell of a celebration. What makes people so much more relaxed in that setting? Or is it just the opportunity to share an actual victory with people that you want it with? We had a team, a lot of good friends on that team. I mean, with three Wake Forest guys on that team. Jay Haas, Curtis, Strange, and myself. We had

that in common. Ben and I had been friends, Jack and our friends. I mean, I look at who's on that team. Fuzzy was a friend. Yeah, I mean, we were all pretty close back then. You know, much like the young guys are today. Okay. We were all about the same age. We were all pretty well established in our careers at that time. I, we were all about the same age. We were all pretty well established in our careers at that time. I'm trying to think if there's anybody on that team, it was maybe a rookie Gil Morgan was there, played well, he played with my partner in one of the matches, but you know overall it was like a bunch of guys that were had very similar careers at that point in time. Yeah. What's your

favorite go-to rider cup story? your favorite memory favorite go-to story You may have already told it on here, but Well, I mean I've always you know because he was such an integral part of it It's probably always savvy you had to get back in his face You could not let him intimidate you. I'll just say did you ever have any personal run-ins? Yeah first hole 1985 I think what I'm playing with Marco Mira in the morning, the second day at the Belfry. Playing the second day at the Belfry in the morning, Marco Mira and I are playing

Sevy and I think Manuel Pinero. Going on the first hole, best ball. We get on the green and I've got about about 20, 25 footer for birdie. Sevies about 12 feet. His coin's in my line. I had him move it. I pulled my putt. It hit his coin.

That's right. He went in the hole. He was living. You have me do that on purpose. You have me move my coin so you can make that putt. I said, yes. I got right in his face. I said, yes, Abby.

That blanking good. Don't forget it. First hole. This is Omirah's first router cut match ever. He gets his white as a sheep standing on the first screen. What's going on? I said, love it. Let's go kick the, we had him six down and six to play.

Oh my God, that's amazing. But the first hole, I pull a butt, hit his coin, goes and he just, I did it on purpose So that's the only I can make the putt was aim at a dime You know say over here 15 feet from me I'm gonna try and bank it off this dime to get it in the hole here right I'm that good So I can't buy it said yeah, I'm that good. Don't forget it. You know just writing his face. Well, Zinger tells a story too of at the bell free, I forget who was,

who was, somebody came up to him before, he's getting ready to play Sevy, and before the match, somebody comes up to him and says, don't let him pull any stuff on you. And so like the second hole, he has a scuff on his ball, and Sevy's like, I'm taking this ball out of play, and Zinger wouldn't let him do it. When he's like, he's like, looking back,

Zinger's like, I probably should have let him, but I had this mindset of like, I'm not letting him get away with anything. So, I mean, where does it start? I mean, how much of a reputation do you already have to have? He had it back from day one. I mean, I played him four times in a row and I was four and no against him.

So that was a good start. So Larry Nelson, I beat he in Antonio Garrito, three straight matches in 79. So you know, and then Larry beat him in singles. So Sevy is very first rider cup ever. He lost four matches to start. But you had to, you, you know, he just was, I know when I was captain, Tom Laman was going all first against him and Curtis Stranges and I both got Laman

and we told him he's gonna pull something. Go right back at him, don't let him get the upper hand. It won't make sense what he's trying to do, but just go right back after him. He did on the 12th hole and Laman went right back after him, Laman beat him. I was gonna say, it's always just weird to me how that approach almost gets celebrated. And was gonna say, it's always just weird to me how that approach

almost gets celebrated, you know? And it sounds like from your perspective, it's not something that should be praised nearly as much as this. No, not at all. I think a lot of the antagonism in the Ryder Cup came from savvy's behavior, you know, being in everybody's business.

I think, you know, he, what the things he did would probably take us off so much that, you know, he, what the things he did would probably take us off so much that we would get more upset at what was happening and you get more defensive on stuff. So there's no question, you know, that I mean, I think he was, if there had to be an antagonist going back and all the ride of cups and when everything started,

I think the arrow points, you know, directly at Sevy and no one else. First time that he played in 79 Larry Nelson I played him and each time we played he and Garedo we beat him worse each time. We beat him two and one then we beat him I think three and two then when we beat him five and four in Austin shot that that was a day I'll never forget because we're playing in the afternoon and I birdied the first five holes Larry birdie six I birdie seven Larry equal to eight we were nine under through eight holes we ended up you know I had a two footer I had a two putt from two feet to close them out

five and three or five and four whatever it was well, Sevy didn't give it to me, so I just, I just, I just backhanded it in. You did backhand it. 100%. Did you tell him you're that bleep of goods? I told him that later. That was at the bell for him with Omira and that,

I mean, that was just, and the cool thing about that was after I told him that, I got Mark kind of turned on. We lit it up, we were six up and six to play. They wanted a couple of holes to stay alive, but we were, you know, we were going to win. All we had to do was tie one hole on the last six holes. So we, you know, we were up there. So it was, that was always, those are the ones I remember. Those were the fun parts.

The good ones, the celebration stories with necklace at PGA and 83. We got to see a side of Jack. People don't normally see. Let his hair down, so to speak. We had dinner at the entire team. You know, has dinners every night starting on, was it Friday night or before, I guess, Thursday night before the first round. So we had three straight nights of dinners at Jack's house. He was that close to where we were round. So we had three straight nights at dinner at Jack's house. He was that close to where we were playing. So instead of having eating in a team room, we're right there, we went to his house every night

for a little cookout. Now that was seriously cool. Yeah. You know, and we're all in the interest and interesting thing about Jack's house, we're walking around, where's your stuff? He didn't have half his trophies out. I mean, everybody wants to see the different

trophy. Nothing's out. It's like, come on, man. It's got him stored away somewhere in the garage. Well, I was, when I was talking to IMG about going with him, I was in New York, talking to Mark McCormick way back in early 70s. And he said, you know, he's trying to impress me. You know, this is Arnold Palmer's office over here. Like Arnold's got an office everywhere that they've got a building, right? So, so and he opened the closet door. There's a master's replica sitting in the closet on the shelf. I thought, what's it in there for? You know, I mean, the things you see and it's anyway, you know,

different. Last I want to end it with, and then we'll let you go. But you were inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2009, and it seemed like from reading quotes, you were kind of past it at a certain point, as far as you said, it's losing its lustre getting inducted into the Hall of Fame. What's the context of that? Number one, I don't know that I felt like I ever belonged in a Hall of Fame with Lee Trivino, Jack Neckless, Arnold Palmer, Hogan, Sneed, Watson, at all, even though Watson outpears.

Why is that? Well, I just think what they've done is so much more outstanding than what I did. I had a nice career. It could have been better. If I'd put it better in places, done certain things at certain times, it would have been even better.

But it was, I'm proud of the longevity, the fact that I won in 70s, 80s, 90s, and I won in four different decades. I thought that was really cool. The amount of wins, I won around the world, I won another half dozen times overseas. The number of rider cups, all that stuff was really cool. But I mean, I mean, I look, if sitting right here staring at the picture of Byron Nelson,

I mean, I haven't said, so I mean, think of what he did. You know, there should be maybe another hall of fame for people like that. They were so special and meant so much to this game. But then I think along the early 2000s, when, you know, Crenshaw, Cite, and Curtis got in, I thought, you know, I'll take my career as well as theirs, then I think along the early 2000s when, you know, Crenshaw or Cite and Curtis got in, I thought, you know, I'll take my career as well as theirs, then I deserve to be in. So that was kind of, you know, and maybe I wasn't as popular a player or a person

is some of the, you know, Crenshaw was or Cite or Curtis, whatever, but I'm not, I don't think my career takes a backseat to theirs in in any way shape or form. No, that makes sense when you compare the records and what not. All right, Lanny, thank you so much for letting us come down here and do this interview. This was an absolute blast and I can't wait for listeners to hear this one. Oh, thanks. Appreciate it.

You gotta be with you guys. Cheers. I'm going to be the right club today. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Expect anything different.