No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 282: Peter Kostis

Episode Date: February 19, 2020

Peter Kostis joins to discuss his recent departure from CBS, how it went down, what needs to change about golf on television, and why things are the way that they are. He talks about the reasonings he was let go, who was in charge of that, what goes into a television broadcast, and so much more. He also discusses the Patrick Reed situation, other instances he's seen, teaching Kevin Costner, and several other stories. Thanks a ton to Peter for the time.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. filtered, he brings the goods. I cannot wait for you guys to hear this. But before we do get started, if you are a golf history buff in any way, there's a recently published piece of content

from our best friends. I'm not even gonna say friends, our best friends, a cowboy that might be for you. If you saw it this week, there's a teaser for it on there, on the Calaway social media handles. It's called The Ball that Changed a Town. And it is the story of the chickpea golf ball plant. It's a short documentary.

It chronicles a hundred plus year history of the Calais ball plant. It was formerly the spalding facility. There in Massachusetts, introduces some of the longstanding employees who bring the facility to life and cutting edge technologies that produced the chrome soft golf ball used by the best golfers in the world, including but not limited to our very own Icarito and Big Randy.

The documentary is actually airing on golf channel right now as we're recording and editing this podcast, and it is going to be available digitally tomorrow on Wednesday, which might be today, probably when you're listening to this. So through this piece, you can see how the facility has over the years impacted the city's community and growth. You can find the documentary on CallawayGolf.com, Callaway's channels on Apple TV and Roku, or just Google at the ball that changed the town. That's always the answer to tell us any question, just Google it. So without any further delay, here is the Man of the Hour, Mr. Peter Costas. You couldn't outrun me forever, Mr. Costa. You knew I was going to beg and beg and beg until you finally came on.

You know, it's like when my wife wants me to do something and I really don't want to do it. If she keeps asking and asking, then I realize, you know what, I'm better off doing it. So I don't have to listen to it for the next six months. I'm glad I could, good to know that I could just wear people out. I've been working on that with a lot of people in golf, but it finally worked on somebody. So, well, thank you for doing it. I know we've been we've been chatting some in the coming months about getting this getting this recorded and whatnot. I got a lot of great. A lot of stuff to talk to you about. But first I want to know just kind of how you've been spending your last few months. I do a lot of teaching in in Scottsdale, staying home. I'm doing a lot of teaching in Scottsdale, stay at home. I went to the PGA show, made a couple of appearances for titleists and another company

called TrueTurn that I'm helping them out. And yes, it's been nice not having to get on an airplane. I have to admit that. And it's been nice not being in hotel rooms for the first time in like 30 years. Well, I was going to say, you're in your 70s, does that wear a nice bit? to be in hotel rooms for the first time in like 30 years. Well, I was gonna say, you're in your seventies, does that, does that wear a nice, I'm just, I'm in my thirties and I get worn out

from traveling is where I'm getting to here. Does it take a toll on you all the time spent on the road? You know, it's interesting. Obviously, there's times in the course of the year, like last year we had nine tournaments in a row. I think this year, CBS is going to have ten in a row with the new schedule. And so, yeah, you get physically worn down a little bit. That said, I think all of my traveling, all of my work on the golf course, walking the

course, basically having to stay up on the world of golf, keeps me moving, keeps me young, you know, and the young players that I work with, and I have to keep moving. I cannot sit still. So yeah, there's a given a take there. Well, it's going to say, compared contrast the time, you know, since you were let go by CBS to now, how you spent that time, how does that compare to how you would spend your time during down weeks? Because CBS is not on the air every single week time. How does that compare to how you would spend your time during down weeks? Because CBS is not on the air every single week. So how does that compare to how you would spend your time

when you were with CBS? Well, from when they told Gary and I that we weren't coming back up until San Diego, my life was exactly the way it's always been. Because CBS had no golf. I was home here teaching, playing, going to Whisper Rock, doing all the things that I would normally do. People saying to me, well, how does it feel?

Is it different? Whatever I said, no, it's the same, because I said, what I would be doing, even if I had to start work in San Diego. Now, the last four weeks have been interesting. I'll give you that. But up until then, no, it was it was normal, completely normal. In what way would you say the last four weeks have been interesting? My Twitter feed and my text and my emails have been lit up,

absolutely lit up. And I have to say, I don't really ever wish anybody ill. I just don't like that. everybody ill, I just don't like that. But the love that Gary and I have gotten in social media, which is oftentimes not very social, has been astounding to me. It's been nice to hear, and it's nice to know that people enjoyed what you did and respected how you did it. I think, and we're going to get into some of this, I would hope that obviously we have some well-documented criticisms of golf on television, in particular at CBS. I don't think that.

And I have some well-documented answers for that too, but... All right, well, that's all I'm ready to get into some of that. I think, to be very clear, though, we never had any issues. I think McCord can be a bit polarizing for me, he's not my taste, but I think to be very clear though, we never had any issues. I think McCork can be a bit polarizing for me, it's not my taste, but I think a lot of people did enjoy listening to him on television. And I've always really, really enjoyed your work. And when that news hit the wire, I thought we were going to be due for some like widespread changes. I thought we were going to come back and the golf on television would look completely different

and that they had a mission in plan for what it would look like. I don't really walk away from that feeling the same way after watching what we witnessed the last four weeks. I don't think that there was a plan in place. I know that they had not signed other announcers prior to not renewing Gary's and my option years. So I don't think there was a plan in place. I honestly think it is my opinion. And it's been corroborated

by some anonymous inside sources that media likes to use these days. That, you know that it was the tour that told CBS to get younger. I think the tour had an issue with me not being a cheerleader. I think they had an issue with Gary sometimes when he would say, somebody would hit it in the fairway, hit it to 10 feet, missed the putt, tap it in for a call. And another guy would hit it in the trees, hack it out, hit it to 30 feet, make the putt, and they both walk away with parrs and Gary would say, this is a stupid game. They didn't want to hear that. They didn't want to hear that it's a stupid game at times,

even though we all know that it is. I think that the tour was looking, as I was told, they wanted the announced crew to get younger so the younger players could better be able to relate to the announcers and vice versa. I don't agree with that in any way shape or form but I think that was the that was the initial catalyst for everything and of course you have to remember that I they may still be in contract negotiations I don't know but this was during the negotiations for the new TV contract. So I think CBS acquiesced.

Yeah, that's a lot to take in there. I'd kind of suspected that that was at least part of the issue, I guess you could say. I just don't understand replacing, I don't want to say replacing even if it's quality, it doesn't matter what your age is. I don't see what, that's what I wanted to get to is were there any documented issues with your performance and any way before that point? I asked Sean McMannis, you know, why he was doing it. Was it something I did or didn't do?

Whatever, and he said, no, we just feel like things have gotten a bit stale and we wanna go in a different direction. That was the exact quote. He denies it now, but that was the exact quote, and that's what he told Gary as well, in a separate call. That was all we were told. That's part of the frustrating part.

I mean, Gary and I have put collectively 65 years of life into CBS golf and to not be told, you know, why you're not being renewed, not having an explanation for why or whatever. That's a bit frustrating because you don't know. And to this day, I don't know. So what was your reaction where you were angry, were you sad and were and were did it was it a phone call completely out of the blue? I'm just I just I can't I can't fathom how this was like delivered to you.

I mean this was funny because I mean wasn't funny because whatever it was I got a phone call from Sean McManus. I didn't answer my phone in time. So it went to voicemail. I called him back maybe five minutes later. And we had our conversation, which I don't know, maybe lasted five minutes at most. And so he told me that they weren't gonna renew my contract. And I said, well, am I the only one or are there other announcers?

Whatever you say, I can't speak to other announcers. I'm just talking to you right now. So I immediately upon hanging up, because Gary and I were the ones whose options were up. I immediately called Gary. I said, did you get a call from Sean? And he said, no. And I go, well, I did.

And I'm not coming back. And Gary went, I can't repeat what Gary said. But you know, he's gonna be kidding me, right? And so then not Gary is kind of a little bit, I'm not gonna say he's happy, but he feels like he's dodged a bullet because he didn't get a phone call from Sean. Well, the idiot, McCord, he goes back and he checks his phone and there's a 2-1-2 number that missed. And so he calls Sean the next morning and got the same call that I did. So he went to bed thinking that he'd dodged a bullet and then got the same call the next day. And you guys, you were offered, was it within that phone call that you were offered a chance

to have some sort of a send-off work and a vendor to this year before quote unquote, retiring and I believe you were quote, is saying that was an immediate no answer. Was that on that phone call or a later conversation? OK, what Sean said is what we'd like for you guys to know what he would like me to do is work San Diego and Phoenix and they could give me a proper send off at Phoenix where I could retire in my hometown. I said, whoa, I got to think about that. That doesn't sound, you know.

And so I thought about it. I called him back a couple of days later, and I said, look, A, I'm not retiring. So I'm not gonna have a retirement party. You're not renewing my contract. So I'm not gonna acquiesce to that. And two, Johnny Miller retired at Phoenix a year ago, and I'm not going to do that.

I'm not going to be a copycat and, you know, go out in Phoenix like Johnny did. Forget it. And that was the end. That was my last conversation with anybody. Well, David Berson and Ross Maloy, two other, the president of CBS Sports and the vice president in charge of CBS Sports Talent. They called me later, and we had a conversation, but that was it. I mean, I got the feeling that it was more about saving face

for them than trying to do something nice for me. Yeah, that's a lot of different ways they can go with this. And I think, you know, it's, I wanna put you in a tough spot with this, but I think it would be one. Yes you do, so I'd go ahead and do that. No, no, it'd be one thing if there was someone

waiting in the wings as far as there to replace you, or, you know, there was a clear, like kind of what I was getting at with a clear direction of where it was gonna go, but to go with someone that has almost no experience to replace you. And it kind of, like I said, this reaction of this last four weeks is kind of like,

whoa, wait a second here. We have not even scratched the surface here as to what the issues that a lot of people are having with this product are. And you took away two assets. Like a very, very strong assets, I think to it. So at least if I can say one positive, it's come from this, you're getting a chance to get some things off your chest

about the tour at least. Your Twitter feed has gotten much, much more interesting if I may say so. Let's just say that, you know, if you go back and check, there was a couple tournaments, and this is where the contrarian would be surfaces. I don't remember the first tournament but it was a rookie who won. I did the interview on the 18th green and I said to him, congratulations, you're no longer

a rookie, now you're a tour winner and with that you have a job secured for two years and you're going to go to Augusta. You're going to play in the Masters. How does that make you feel? That was roughly my question to the player. And then I got a phone call the next day from New York and they had gotten a phone call from the commissioner. And the commissioner was upset that I didn't say first off that he had won 500 FedEx Cup points and

He was he didn't want me talking about majors And so I said well, you know what I would be willing to bet my entire Self-worth whatever that is That the first thought that crossed that kid's mind wasn't, wow, I've just won 500 FedEx Cup points. He knows he's got a job secured for two years, and he's going to play in the masters. That's what everybody thinks, right?

So I'm not going to be disingenuous and just pump up FedEx and be a spokesman for the tour. I don't work for the tour. So that started, and then I did it again again because they told me not to do it. So that's what I do. And if you notice, toward the middle the end of last year, I stopped doing interviews for the winners. Even though I was walking with a group, they shifted it over to Amanda.

Amanda does a great job. Don't get me wrong. But it was kind of like me being told that I wasn't listening correctly. And this is what we're going to do. Well, how does it work then in that scenario? So there's a partnership deal between CBS and the PGA tour. So from a legal perspective or anything, are you contractually obliged to check any of the boxes here that we're talking about from FedEx to any of this stuff? I mean, what kind of actual power does the tour have in that regard to say that to you? Well, they don't have any power to say it to me, but they have power to say it to CBS,

or NBC, or whomever. Is this a common thing that they're dictating what is being said and how it works on the air? I think this is a common thread through this whole thing that the tour wants more control over what's being said. I think they want more cheerleaders on the telecast, more people who are going to quote unquote promote the tours product, which, okay, now we're bridging into the stuff that people are really upset about, the quality of the

telecasts. And I will say this, from the bottom of my heart, I believe this, that no one in management of a network or at the leadership of the PGA tour gives a rat's ass about the quality of the telecast. They don't care about the quality of the viewer experience. They don't care about anything other than promotion. And I learned this, I listened to it and I listened to it like twice a year. The lost interview with Steve Jobs.

If you haven't watched it, go watch it, because it had to do with the time when he left Apple and they brought in John Scully from Pepsi Cola. He ran Apple as the CEO and they kicked jobs out. And Scully was, you know, Pepsi Cola. I mean, that's your product, so you market it, right? And so he tried to market Apple, and it went in the tank because, as Steve Jobs said, they took their eye off the ball. They took their eye off of content. They took their eye off of product development that people want.

They took their eye off of innovation. And I don't think anybody at the tour cares about the product, vis-a-vis the viewer, and at CBS, they have to turn a profit. They're a publicly traded company, right? So when the tour keeps upping and upping and upping, the rights fees, CBS has to get that money back somehow hence a Gajillion commercials, right?

And then the tour, the tour goes to, you know, the Cornferi Tour, and they say, okay, we're gonna, you give us this much money to run the Cornferi Tour, we're gonna give you so many pops on our Tour Telecast, you know, they go to FedEx, you give us the money for the FedEx cup, and then we're gonna mention FedEx number of times, we're gonna have FedEx updates, FedEx this, FedEx that. And so they use the telecast to pay off, if you will,

people who bring money into the tour. And it clutters up the telecast to no end. I mean, we have to show a corn fairy highlight that with as three people in the gallery, and it takes, I don't know what, takes a minute, minute and a half. I mean, that's a bunch of golf shots you could show. So, they are interested in marketing the product. They're not interested in the quality of the product. And I believe that from the bottom of my heart.

the quality of the product. And I believe that from the bottom of my heart. Yeah, and I think that has been the source of so many of the issues that we have had. And I think if I'm, if, look at the revisionist history, maybe, we came in very hard on CBS many years ago. And we've started to at least, at least in the last year, maybe two years, when applicable, shifting that blame more towards the PGA tour. And there's so much of what you're talking about there. So much of what CBS has to do is mandated. And you touch on it there with the rights, fees, and all that.

And it looks like that might be different within the next contract. Expanding on that, how hamstrung do you think someone like CBS feels when they go to telecast, go to broadcast golf? Like what are, what are the main huge hurdles that are prohibiting golf from being entertaining on TV? Cost is the biggest, no question about it.

I mean, prior to the CBS Viacom merger, there was cost cutting going on, and as a consequence, we lost Hall of Fame cameraman to early retirement. We lost, if there was a Hall of Fame for technicians, we lost some of our most experienced people to early retirement. And then you take Gary and I out of the equation and they cut back on cameras. You know, somebody makes a... Like it was John Rom, who called out CBS at San Diego this year, when they didn't show his eagle hole out on two, you know, they didn't have it.

Because they didn't have an experienced cameraman to know where to stand, to be able to get the shot. They didn't have enough cameras. And that's what happens when we get eight or nine guys in four or five, six different groups charging up the leaderboard and everybody's going, well, why aren't you seeing this? Why aren't you seeing that? You know what? They don't have a camera.

It's there's there's not enough coverage. So it's everything is dictated by finances. You know, we would all love to have top tracer on every single shot cost money. We'd love to have the blimp up in the air for overheads cost money. And when you're paying exorbitant rights fees, it really is dollars and cents. I mean, Fox can go do whatever they want to do for the US open. They've got a long-term trust me. They lose millions of dollars on the US open with a number of cameras they have trying to present it the way they want to present it and so on and so forth. It's a lost leader like in a grocery store for them, right? They

hope to make it up someplace else. But if you have to somehow manage your budget, then it's the nuts and bolts that really make the show that end up going away. Yeah, I just, I've always wondered how long that can go on. And maybe this will all be fixed with the new TV deal, but how long this, you know, dog and pony show can go on just ignoring the fans and what the fans think of it. And it felt like it felt like things reached a fever pitch this past week in every year. I mean, we are constantly the ones kind of pointing out and making criticisms. And

it felt like it was an overwhelming arena to somebody on the golf course today. And they were like, wow, I couldn't believe the telecast this week. It's like, it's finally starting to really shine through. I'm curious to pick your brain on, you follow, you follow us on Twitter for a long time. I'm sure there's tons of stuff we've said that you disagree with. Maybe there's some stuff you agree with. I wonder if you can shine some light on where we're barking up the right tree and where we're wrong. My initial negative reactions were that none of you guys had taken the time to come and go in the production trucks, meet the people, see how it's put on the air, see what the hurdles are, see what

the issues are that we all deal with. And everybody can sit back and pontificate on whatever subject they want. But I felt like you didn't know enough about what it took to put a broadcast on. I think you've done some homework since then. Correct. And that's to your credit. And so therefore, I'm more willing to,

well, I don't care anymore. Actually, I'm more willing to listen to what you have to say because you've taken the time to learn a little bit about the ins and outs of the business, right? And speaking of the, you know, going forward, the word on the street is that there's not going to be any more a CBS TV compound per se or an NBC TV compound per se in the new contract.

I think it's going to be a PGA tour. Right. TV compound. I think they're going to do what essentially amounts to the world feed at the Olympics per se just to say and that CBS NBC or whoever ends up with a golf channel whatever they'll take those feeds and those camera shots and whatever and then put together a show that'll air on network. That's in theory, if the tour were above board and willing to show, you know, bad shots, willing to show a player breaking a rule or whatever and show the tour in all of his glory and all of his, with all of his warts, you may have more cameras available. And the coverage could conceivably get better.

Yeah, I think some of our, my other friends here at No Lang Up, where their initial reaction to that was negative for the tour taking that over. And I've said kind of what you touched on to start of how involved the tour is with the telecast as it is. CBS is doing a, I wouldn't say trying their hardest, but they're making a big effort, of course, to work in the TOR's considerations while also trying to make money off this thing.

And it's just the Venn diagram doesn't overlap very much. Whereas if the TOR is able to take over the production arm of this, thus eliminating big, big, big costs from CBS is how the rights fees have been able to go up so much. Is that a fair summation? Well, the rights fees have gone up for one reason and one reason only. That's Tiger Woods. Trust me, he moved the needle.

He was the needle. Still is. That allowed the two to start charging more and more and more. Now, going forward, they're going to, I'm sure they're going to get even more in the next chain-year contract. So CBX still has to get that money back. Now maybe they've got a little bit less production cost. I don't know. I don't know how it's going to work out. That remains to be seen. But as long as the cost for getting the rights to a PGA Tour event keep going up and up and up, you're going to see less and less golf. I mean I don't care what it is. Go to Golf Digest magazine.

You know, somebody just sent me a 27-page story that I did back in whenever, 1988, whatever, on Golf Dig digest cover story, right? It was a big long article. You don't ever see those anymore because they aren't getting the ad revenue. And so, you know, you get these little bitty stories, ad page, little story, ad page, two ad pages, another ad page. So, and then golf digest comes out and says something negative about CBS or NBC or whomever for too many commercials. Give me a break.

You can't flip a magazine of theirs without having ads everywhere. So it's everything's driven by cash. And that's the big hurdle. I mean, there's rumors now that the FedEx Cup winner is going to get $25 million in the next couple years. Right? Here all this time, I thought it was about the points. Well, it's going to say, well, here you promised you were going to get $25 million in the next couple years. Right? Here all this time, I thought it was about the points. Well, it's going to say, well, you promised you were going to give FedEx any props, and

you keep saying their name. What the hell is that? Well, no, I mean, imagine what's going to have to happen on the telecast. I know. But that's kind of what I'm getting at, though, is, so if CBS is not running the camera, so you mentioned earlier that such a prohibitive factor is just the cost it takes to produce all this stuff, but if they're not running it and the tour is running it, and CBS is just taking the feed and making their package with the announcers over top of that, that is what's contributing towards the tour being

able to charge so much more for that has to be a huge factor there, right? Well, I mean, if that comes to fruition, it may help out the telecaster, but who knows? Yeah, that's it. I'm not one for feeling very good about the tour taking over more control. Yeah. Yeah, it can go. I think they'll be pros and cons, like almost any changes. But listen, the NFL does it, NBA does it, MLB is doing it. I mean, everybody's trying

to put a positive spin on everything that happens in their sport. So the tour shouldn't be any different, I suppose. Which, but what the NFL and NBA and other leagues have so much is that controversy sells. And that's what I don't understand. The tour, like you're talking about them wanting to be a promotion machine. Like the read thing sells. Like that's a situation that sells. That's controversy is on ESPN.com. And it is going to, it's, people are still talking about it.

How many hours? But it's not selling the image that the PGA tour wants and and this going forward now everything's going to revolve around gambling. Mark my words some place down the road every shot from every player will be available on video somewhere and people are going to be able to have a red button and they can say okay 50 bucks says michaelson misses this fairway and people are going to be able to have a red button and they can say, okay, 50 bucks says, Nicholson misses this fairway. And that's going to be the driving force for golf on television over the next 15 years. And so they don't want cheaters, they don't want negative stories, they don't want anything that might impact that. Yeah, I think that will help you potentially bring in eyeballs. I think the gambling aspect of what happened with Reed there,

that's a separate conversation, but that could be a difficult situation. If somebody is taking advantage of the rules, whatever word you want to use there, and the Torah is coming out and saying he was a perfect gentleman about it, that's creates a different situation. Getting back to broadcasting golf, the challenges that go with it. I think that, you know, in our arc of understanding all this stuff, we've been very admitting that golf is, this is not easy, this is your job is not easy. Showing golf on TV is not easy. It's got to be one of the hardest sports in the world to broadcast, but I still want to pick your brain more

on kind of what you think are legit criticisms. Be there be that the tour taking that blame, CBS taking that blame, NBC taking anybody, any broadcaster taking that blame. What, separating out what you think is our well-founded versus kind of stuff that like guys, we can't do anything about that.

First of all, you got X number of golf balls in the air at one time, right? So that's a reality. Every other sport has got one ball. And you can focus on that. I don't care if it's a baseball or basketball, a football, whatever. There's only one thing going.

They take TV timeouts for commercials. So they can show their sport live. I think golf needs to be done completely differently. I think it needs a complete overhaul. If I were the TV's are of the world, I would get however many recording machines I needed in the trucks. I would record shots. I would focus on a particular group live, you know, for a whole or a couple shots. Give the announcer's time to set up a storyline,

explain what's going on, whatever. And then I would go, boom, rapid fire. And I would, I would tee up 15 shots in a row and just have one announcer who just voices over. This was Roy McElroy seconded at two. This was Tiger Woods T-Shot on 10. And just show the shots, shot, shot, shot. And give people a chance to experience and hear the sound of impact and hear the swish of the club and see some actual full swings and Then come back, slow the pace down again

Go back and fall now when you get to the back nine on Sunday You do less of that because now you want to focus on the outcome and you need to show more more live golf But I think tape golf is the salvation for the future and people have to understand that. They have to get it, you know, get off their high horse about moments ago, whatever. Just say it one time, moments ago, these were the 15 shots you missed while we were in commercial. And that's what, you know, when talking to Tommy Roy, the one thing he said that just kind of stunned me was, I asked him, you know, I said, do you take a big breather when you go to commercial? He's like, no, actually our job gets harder when you go to commercial because we got to

figure out what to do once we get back and what happened during the break that we need to cover, et cetera. Now you kind of touch on that there too. And I think one thing that golf can improve on it, but just by showing more shots is kind of the drifting away from the assumption that somebody always needs to be talking. I mean, sometimes just the words on the screen, or the, sorry, the pictures on the screen tell

the viewer what's happening, and that the reason why you have to stick with shots longer is because somebody is also explaining them. Is that a fair grasp of that? No, that's, that's's that's that's in some situation. I'm not saying every shot. I'm just saying that that can be something that is preventing a huge volume of shots to be shown. You have to understand that 75% of every shot you see on every network is on tape. Yeah. Okay. So and then

you count it after the ball goes in the hole count to seven and they'll cut away to something else If you're perceptive you can tell when a shot's on tape I mean they showed a shot of Rory hitting his t-shot went away to two other shots and then they come back and that was in the fairway Well, hell he could no-bought 300 yards that fast So you know it's on tape, right? Which I think now I one thing I will say about CBS So you know it's on tape, right? Which I think, I have one thing I will say about CBS.

In the towers, we only have one monitor, and that's the feed. That's what's going out to the viewers at home. NBC has multiple monitors, and the announcers know the outcome before they show it when they show it on tape. So that's a little bit disingenuous, you know, when they're calling shots, predicting

things, so they already know the outcome. At this point, I have to point out that I just spilled water all over my keyboard and it makes my microphone not work for the rest of this interview. I'm not sure what happened. I got too amped up. And so you're going to hear my audio on basically the backup recorder for the remainder of this interview So I do apologize for that Peter just got me going he got me going that hard while we are taking this break I want to point out that our latest episode of Taurus sauce is live on our YouTube channel this is episode four This season is brought to you by original penguin episode four chronicles our trip to true blue and caledonia

In myrtle Beach some of the bestonia in Myrtle Beach. Some of the best golf that Myrtle Beach has to offer. We divided and conquered on this day. Neil and DJ played True Blue had a match that one of the two of them dominated. You'll tune in and see who that was and then me, Big Randy and Tron played over at Caledonia. Two awesome Mike Strands courses. Be sure to check that out. Also, be sure to swing by originalpenguin.com. You'll see the apparel that we're wearing throughout this season. They got wild stuff, they got conservative stuff. They got a bunch of different patterns

and a lot of people been asking us about what we're wearing in them. Both on and off the course and both what we're wearing during the season and not during the season. So always remember to be an original and visit originalpenguin.com as well as swing by our YouTube channel and check out the latest episode of ToraSauce. Now let's get to the rest of our interview with Peter Kausis. I promise it's about to get really good. Well one thing I wanted to ask you

about is while you were with CBS, could you get a sense in recent years of growing criticism, either towards PJ Tordolf, towards CBS, and was there any kind of discussion or reaction to the growing criticism? Well, I mean, if you, you know, they asked us to be on social media, you know, CBS did. And so if you're on social media, you're going to look at it. And so, yeah, I'm often a fan of saying that there's nothing social about social media. And it got more and more angry. And you know, there were meetings about it.

I don't know that anything really ever happened to be honest with you because of the financial constraints. But it is, at least it's been heard, right? I mean, so that's kind of where I think we're kind of just stuck in this cycle of we, it's an antiquated contract. It's this contract, I don't know when this contract was signed is it maybe 2006? Is that sound right?

I was a 10-year contract that it's up in 2020. So it's on in 2009. Okay, that makes that sounds about right. So it's just kind of like, okay, well, we hear the criticism, but we can't really change anything about this right now because of the financial constraints and whatnot. Yeah, and again, that's the beauty of the Masters one-year contracts. And it also shows you what happens. Like when we signed our PGA championship contract with the PGA of America 10 years ago now, we were on the air for what was considered to be a lot of hours back then. Right?

And now CBS got ripped for being on so few hours for a major because viewing habits change, technology changed, and the 10 year contract didn't change, right? So you're victimized by the length of the contract and that's one of the things that's really bad about long-term contracts is we don't know what the future holds in terms of video broadcasting in the future. Do you view golf on television any differently? I know you haven't been away from it for long but now that you've been away from it for just a little bit do you view it any differently? No not really because I know what's going on behind the scenes you

know when I was working for CBS and and we were off like now for March Madness I would watch NBC golf. I mean I'm a golf. And I had players that I'm working with, and I wanna see how they're doing there. I'll go on shot like and they'll do whatever. But no, I understand the limitations. There's a certain amount of promotion of the PGA tour that's required in telecast, certain number of commercials. There's network promos for whatever. And they all get in the way of showing golf.

Amen. What if I was your old bosses at CBS, if I was to ask you what their opinion of us is, what would your reaction be? I don't know. I know the bosses are very in tune to social media. They take a lot of the commentary personally. Now, I mean, they'll be looking at their cell phones when they're in the production truck during a telecast,

which is generally only going to be the masters in the PGA, but whatever, they're going to be looking to see what social media is seeing about their telecast. Now, whether they, I'm not in the truck, so I don't know if they change what they're doing or let it influence what they're doing, I have no idea. But I know they listen, I know they watch. Well, that's good news.

What happened this past weekend, I don't know how much of it you watched, but with Harold Varner on the 10th-tier Riviera tied for the lead, topping a shot off the tee to have that not shown on the telecast, was that odd to you? No, and here's why. I honestly, this is my opinion. I don't know. I've not talked to anybody involved with the telecast I don't think they had a camera there. Well, they got us a highlight of it 75 minutes later maybe and I don't know that that was necessarily a CBS camera. Oh

Okay, so they got it from PGA tour productions or whatever they took most of the t-shirts on 10 From behind the green if you if you remember they showed the incoming shot, right? They didn't show they didn't show the swing. I don't know if something happened to the camera or whatever But I just don't think they got the shot How many cameras are out there? Not enough I mean it's it's it's a fact of life. You got to understand. Kind of come an Ulta, right?

I did that for whatever, 15 years. And it got to the point where costs were difficult. And we actually had three or four tournaments a year where there was no high-speed camera on-site due to costs and so we had a Quotin quote-unquote fake it. We had to use swings from previous tournaments that we taped Interesting. Yeah, I were not a set. So yeah, and a lot of people and actually those are all pre-produced, and that's where I got to do a lot of the illustrator stuff, and people actually like those better, right? Because they could learn, I could make one point, they could learn it, I edited it, and we put it on, but I had to sometimes do

eight or ten of them in hopes that two or three of those players would be in the hunt so we could put it on the air, right? So we actually did swing visions without a swing vision. Well, I did want to ask you about the swing vision too because we actually, we had pole azinger on the podcast recently and he, I guess, did he reach out to you asking how you did these things? Because the way he told the story, he just said said he's kind of faking it his way through the explanation. I think we talked a while back. Yes, I think you were still at ABC.

And I told him, I told the advice, I told him what I did, right? And if I was successful doing those things, A, it was because I knew pretty much everybody's golf swing. I never got to see the swing beforehand. It was raw to me when I'm doing the analysis. I don't know what angle there's gonna show. I don't know what player until six seconds before they do it. And then I would pick one point, and I would drive it home, whatever that point was.

It's kind of like, tell him what you're going to tell him, tell him and then tell him what you told him. Right? So at least the viewer says, wow, Rory's hips really do rotate fast. I didn't make a comment about every foot of his golf swing and say, well, look, he's now he's sitting the ankle, now he's on plane, now he's here, now he's got a full shoulder tournament. That's bullshit. That doesn't help anybody to learn anything, right? So I said, just take one point and drive it home, whatever it is. Let's stick with it.

Well, and that's kind of something that I think a lot of people don't have full appreciation for out there is the coaching aspect of your job. But tying it back to broadcasting, and you've famously, you've coached Paul Casey for a long time. What's it like calling tournaments when he is in contention and how is that, is it hard for you to be objective in those situations? No, because I got a job to do and Paul knows that I have a job to do. And you know, there's times, like I understand that, like for example, in 2010, I was with Paul at St. Andrews at the British Open.

Excuse me, the Open. Paul is, but whatever. And I'm walking outside the ropes. And I can see he's struggling. I can see he's having difficulties. There's not a damn thing I can do about it. I can't say anything to him. I can't do anything. I got to sit back and I got to take it like a man, just like he had to take it like a man, right? So I'm used to being outside the ropes, watching players,

and having no ability to say anything, and I can't affect the outcome whatsoever. So when I'm like Paul, I had a rough time at Memorial, I think, two years ago, I was walking with his group. And all I can do is what I would do with any other player, and I can explain his tendencies in this situation and what he's battling and what he's got to overcome. And so that's what I try to do, you know.

Try to be as objective as possible as clinical as possible. And one other specific thing I wanted to ask you about is how I'm curious how you would have handled the Patrick Reed situation if you were on the call for that. And if there was anything that you remember from the past in working and calling Patrick Reed in the past that you would have harkened back to it any moment. Well, okay. I was told by Frank Chikini and the Godfather of Gough on TV, and this was kind of the unwritten rule that we are there to report the story and not to be part of story. And he was adamant about that, right? So like we could never call a penalty on a player, but we could comment if a penalty was called on a player. That's the difference between reporting on a story and being a part of the story, right? I've seen Patrick Reed improve his lie up close and personal four times now. Oh. By putting, you can go on YouTube. Oh, I've seen it. That's why I'm asking.

And, you know, the, the only time I ever shot McCord up, he didn't know what to say. When I said, well, you know, the lie that I saw originally wouldn't have allowed for this shot, because he put four or five clubs behind the ball, you know, kind of faking whether he's going to hit this shot or hit that shot whatever time he was done, he hit a freaking three wood out of there, which what I saw was it was a sand wedge layup originally. Right. I saw him, I was in the tower at 16 at San Diego on the part three during golf channel telecasts and he hit it over the green and did the same thing put three or four clubs behind and it was really a treacherous shot that nobody had gotten it close all day long from over there and by the time he was done I could I could read Callaway on the golf ball from my tower.

So but I can't say anything. I can't be the story. Wow. Right. Yeah. Now I'm done. I don't really care. Yeah. But, but there was another incident in Hartford and another incident in San Diego. And I was there on a song all, but we can't we can't be the story. What was the incident in Hartford? over the 17th green. Same thing, same, same, same modus operandi. I'm not even sure that he knows what he's doing sometimes. Maybe he does. I'm not going to, I'm not going to assign intent. Yeah. Is that all I'm going to tell you is when I saw it? Is that something you see run rampant on the PGA tour? Like, from a no? No. No. It's no. Huh. And you just, so it wasn't a surprise to you when all the stuff happened in the Bahamas? No. No. Huh. And you just, so it wasn't a surprise to you when all the stuff happened in the Bahamas?

No. Wow. No. Hmm. That is fascinating. I had, you know, there's kind of just some surface evidence that is, you know, surface level evidence that has floated around in the months since then. But I had not, I not heard you speak on this, but those specifics that, that, that, that's, that's fascinating.

I think there's always been a player or two throughout history, you know, who fudged with their coin, Mark and the ball, who, who, um, you know, stepped on a spike mark, you know, with their foot walking across their line. Um, you know, I mean, everybody's, there's always been a player or two. It's rare. It's really, really rare in the PGH, or I have to say, I mean, 99.99% of the guys play by the rulebook. And there to be applauded for that. Well, it's just amazing. This happens in front of people, though. You have a clear vision of all this stuff, and it happens. It's been my experience that people who are trying to get away with something

think that they're invisible, that nobody's watching, that they're so cool doing it, that nobody will get it. Hmm. Wow. That is, that is very interesting. One other topic I wanted to make sure we got to about, I want to hear about coaching Kevin Costner. What his swing was like before, uh, 10 cup, like what, what, what was your One other topic I wanted to make sure we got to about, I want to hear about coaching Kevin Costner. What his swing was like before, Tim Cump, like what, what was your role were you there

on set coaching him in between shots? Like how does that, how does that work? It started Ron Shelton, who is the director, came to Akron, Ohio with Kevin. And we went out to a place called Sharon Country Club and we were introduced and Gary McCord and I were the technical consultants for the film and we were both in it, obviously. And my job was to get Kevin to look respectable with a golf club in his hand.

Now luckily he was a baseball player, had great hand-eye coordination. And he kind of knew going in that all he had to do was kind of fake it, and that they would edit in the shots later. But about a half an hour into my lesson with him, he hit an eight iron that flew about 155 yards and actually hit the flag stick on the green. He turned around, he goes,

he goes, you will not be editing my shots. I'm gonna hit him. And so Ron Shelton turned to me, he goes, your job just got a whole lot harder. And so actually kevin's swings were kevin's swing he was actually

i think passable we we'd be in a short swing a little bit flatter swing because he was you know playing out of west texas and windy and stuff like that so i think i think it was passable the interesting thing was done johnson who that. So I think I think it was passable. The interesting thing was Don Johnson, who who was, I don't know if he is now still a low handicap, right? But his golf swing wasn't aesthetically pleasing. And so, but he made a great practice swing. So I told Ron that whatever shots that he needed from

Don Johnson, make sure he took two practice swings before he hit the ball. And then you can edit. And so the swings that were shown for the most part were all practice swings. Wow. That is going to be fascinating on a rewatch you know, the shots were edited in. That's great. Well, before I let you go, is there anything that you think we're leaving on the table here or haven't covered or you want to dress or you want to get out there? No, I'm cool, but I will leave you with one funny story. Okay.

And that's the origin of me carrying all that crap around my deck for 15 years. Originally, this was a Charlotte at Quail Hollow, the old first hall, a short part four. And I had a guy who had the monitor, he was walking with me, it was on a tripod because it's a single pod, whatever. And he's holding it for me, right? And that's why I would look into that and do my analysis. Well, our producer Lance Barrow, who is known to give me about six seconds notice of when he's going to do one of these swings, comes to me first fairway, second shot of Phil Michelson. He goes, all right, costus Michelson second shot, go. And I look around

for my guy with the monitor. And he's a hundred yards down the fairway talking to this absolutely gorgeous fat US blonde on rose, trying to get a date. Right? But here I am. And so I hit my talk back button. I said, tell me when he starts to swing. And he goes, now. And so I verbalized, Michelson's swing and made my comment about it. Whatever. Completely blind. Oh my God. Because I had no monitor. And I decided at that point, if that's the way life was going to be, I needed to control my own destiny out there. I couldn't rely on a college kid who was working for one week for CBS.

And right, rightfully so, he had his choice of standing next to me with a monitor or trying to get a date with this beautiful blonde. I can't blame him. But, you know, so in the 15 years of carrying that stuff around my neck. Did he get the date? That's the important question. No, I did not.

He did not. Well, I did actually, this was all my list and I kind of, I didn't want to get back into technical stuff, but I do kind of want to paint an image for people that are watching golf at home. What your setup looks like as far as batteries, heat, and comfort level while you're on a golf course, because it's not good. It's really hot. It does not look comfortable or cool in any way. No, and those those RBC commercials that I did last year. Yeah. That was pretty authentic. I mean, they weren't as heavy because they were mock ups, But that's stuff I carry around my neck. I got the batteries around my waist and the microphone and the whole thing.

So yeah, it's, you know, all I needed is some symbols around my knees and I could be a one man band. That's great. All right, well, Peter, I can't thank you enough for finally green to come do this and for putting up with me and putting up with me over the years and whatnot. But we really, really appreciate the insight. This was fascinating. Well, I hope it was helpful.

And I think that people need to know a little bit. They think it's really easy and you can snap your fingers and this should be able to be done and so on and so forth. But it's a little bit more complicated than that when you get behind the scenes. And I can say this about my CBS colleagues, the ones I work with, the announcers, whatever. They're all trying their best to do their best, sometimes management, and powers to be override their desires to make the show as better.

Yeah, I can get that sense. All right, well, best of luck to you. We'll stay in touch. Again, thank you for coming on. This has been great. You got it. Thanks. Get the right club. Be the right club today.

Yes! That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different?