No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 291: Jim Herman

Episode Date: March 18, 2020

In the midst of a hectic week at The Players, D.J. and Tron sat down with PGA Tour pro Jim Herman to discuss his career, battling through Q-School to eventually earn tour status, working at Trump National in Bedminster, and his two PGA Tour wins.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm gonna be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. that myself and Tron conducted with Jim Herman, which was an unexpected guest. We didn't know anything about Jim Herman until we happened to have dinner with him a couple a couple of weeks ago now.

In Los Angeles, we kind of heard his whole life story and we're a little bit blown away by it. So we wanted to make every effort during a very weird player's championship week to have him on the podcast. So Jim was nice enough to come over to the house and sit down with us for, we'll turn into a pretty lengthy chat about his background. And he's one of those guys that you see on the leaderboard every now and again.

And I feel like most people just literally don't know much about him. And I was in that same camp until a few weeks ago and wanted to rectify the situation for all the final listeners out there. So we'll get to Jim in just a moment. But before we do, our friends at Caliwagoff would like to again remind you to regularly wash your hands. I feel like this goes without

saying, but regularly wash your hands. Stay away from close contact with other people. Coronavirus absolutely bucking its head. And hopefully you've absorbed that information. By now, Calloway was nice enough over the last few episodes to issue some nice CDC statements, but we're going to move on. We're going to move on to some different information. And we're going to talk about the 2020 Chrome soft golf ball, which I'm told our, our own Tron Carter had a chance to play with this week before all the golf courses got locked into quarantine. I believe Jackson Beach, Muni, still open, but, you know, hopefully practicing some responsible

social distancing out there. We have some very non-specific, but very glowing quotes from Tron that he sent to the Caliw guys who happened to write this ad copy. Tron had reported that the ball was going, quote, a tad farther with the short to mid-Irns end quote. Notice that Tron says farther, not further, you know, good grammar is a, a big tenant of the TC way. And that also the ball was quote, cutting through the wind a bit more end quote.

They also report that Tron added that he was quote playing like and then there was an expletive that was deleted. But I don't think we can blame that on the golf ball end quote there by the way. You know, this is, Tron was supposed to be here for this ad read that they kind of said, you know, do you want, Tron, do you have any other further observations? Or should I then tell the listeners about the massive investment in Calais, Massachusetts golf ball plant? I assume Tron was going to say, yeah, go ahead and talk about the golf ball plant.

And then I was going to say that investment has enabled Calaway to reconstruct and produce the ball in ways that make it faster and longer than before while maintaining characteristics great feel and short game control. And by the way, the 2020 ChromeSosoft is now available with triple track technology. Find out more about the new Chromesoft 2020 at CallawayGolf.com. And without further do, let's get into our conversation with Jim Herman. It is players championship week. I don't know when this is going to air, but it's a hectic players championship week for many, many reasons. But the NLU crew is spread all across North Florida right now. So I am

in the kill house with my associate, Tron Carter, Tron Howray. Oh, did you? And with Guy who is currently sitting at, I believe, T6 in the players championship, Mr. Jim Herman. James, how are you? That's good to be here. Thanks for, thanks for doing this.

So we just found out the, the players championship is going to be played with no fans the rest of the week. Are you, you know, is that going to be a change for you? Are you, are you, do you have experience playing with playing with no fans? Or what? What's the situation? Lots of experiences with no fans. I mean, many tours, club professional events. It's, you know, the bottom barrel.

So, a lot of experience with that. So the only reason I say that and throw in an unnecessary barb to start is that we heard probably the three-hour version of your backstory when we were out in Los Angeles a couple weeks ago, I had absolutely no background on you, your history, your path to the PJ tour, your path as a professional golfer, any of that, and it was a story that blew me away, Tron filling the gaps there. What was your takeaway? Yeah, I think it was a four that blew me away, Tron filling the gaps there. What was your takeaway? Yeah, I think it was a four hour discussion ahead.

It was a long dinner, wasn't it? Actually dinner on Sunday night, I first got in and then ran it back and kind of hurt it again. And it was even more interesting the second time. Oh, absolutely blown away. I can get long-winded. No, no, I think we were more than one. I just not feeling good the next day.

But it was something where it was like, just keep drawing stuff out of you. And it was like, oh my gosh, there's another way here to this. There's another. It's so many levels. And everyone has a long journey. There's very few of us that make it right away

and have success. And I'm so many of us out here. My story's a lot different, but a lot of us, you know, struggle, struggle is real. Well, what was funny for me was we were sitting there. I knew you're from Cincinnati. I knew, I mean, candidly, like I knew, oh yeah, he's the Trump guy, I think.

He's got the Trump logo. I think I remember that. Beyond that, I didn't really know. So I was like, yeah, Jim, why don't you kind of, you know, how did you get here to the Genesis invitation from Cincinnati? And you started filming the details and it made style as a trip that made stops in Australia

and it made stops and work pick and ranges and doing all these different things. And it was just really cool. So without building it up too much, why don't we start at the beginning? Who are you? Where did you grow up? And how did you get introduced to the game of golf?

I guess we'll start there. Sure. Well, I got to introduce with my father, my dad and my brother. So I was just growing up on the West Side of Cincinnati into baseball, basketball, soccer, and then, hey, my dad's going out for around a golf and my brother's six years older than I am. And he would go with him every so often. And I was like, I want to go and he wouldn't let me go. I want to go. You can't go. You know,

I don't want to screw up your pitching grip, your pitching stats, your baseball swings. He always said, like, come on, dad, I want to go. So eventually just we went and hit it around. Shawnee, look out golf course and public course and deep west side of Cincinnati and somehow got the bug. You know, just kept practicing at it. Got away from playing with my dad all the time just to be playing by myself and you know, just got better and better and that led into junior golf and high school golf and college golf and can't just skip all over.

When did the skips go on for you? I mean, you really, you kind of transitioned from baseball to golf. I'd say, you know, just that junior golf period, not into high school yet. A couple of years before before high school baseball, I was not growing. I was just going to be a middle and fielder right field. So there was not going to be a future for me and baseball. Tried for the high school team, didn't make it, but I didn't make the golf team my freshman year either, so I went to the probably, you know, a lot of the people in town will argue

what the best high school in Cincinnati is, but I always feel like St. X was the best high school in town. I'll agree with you. My dad went there. Is that right? Would Randy argue that? Where's Randy fit into all this? Randy wants a small little Mary-Mont.

Oh, that's a good idea. This is how you, you know, the power soul. You're probably getting arguments from people on boiler, elder, X, maybe bacon. Yeah. So I mean, talk to me about not making the golf team. Sure. That's a Michael Jordan story. Well, I mean, trying out about not making the golf team sure. It's a Michael Jordan story Well, I mean trying out for there was no freshman team. It was just going up for the

Reserve so you know, it was just based off off our junior golf scores and you know the city junior classic I think was held at it should be mentioned to you that there's a tunnel all male school of like 2,000 guys So you got you got a big pool of people. Big pool, big pool guys coming from Hyde Park and the East Side of town playing all the- Now we're speaking Randy's language here. Yeah. I'm sure what I made the team, if I went to Elder,

my dad went to Elder, my uncle went to Elder. We were an Elder family, but my grandfather, he went to X and he steered my brother to X and then I followed with him. That freshman year was rough. Didn't make the soccer team, didn't make golf in the fall, tried out for basketball, never in detention, really felt like I was going to make basketball, but tried out that cut. And then baseball, you know, in the spring, that was a heartbreaking. Not making golf and then not making the baseball team, that was a heart-breaking, not making golf and then not making the baseball team.

That was a tough freshman year, so failed it. All attempts at high school sports. So after that first year was like, maybe we made the wrong decision. It was great, great academically school, but you know, playing some sports was definitely wanted to play sports in high school and to strike out at all and all phases was pretty rough and then got back at it played really good that next year that next summer. Did you just dive into golf after you had pretty much pretty much everything else was just individual. So just just golf so it was like fighter flight. Yeah chose the fight. Yeah. Made the team sophomore year. So and there we go. We'll move it up to senior year. We have five seniors and we won the state

championships. So pretty good path. Were you the number one player? That's as number two. Like a friend Matt Starmman, he was number one on the team. He deserved it. He finished higher at me at state, a medalist more than I did. And, but he was a ex-university, a savory university, not with the Cincinnati, so. One of the things that kind of blew me away at dinner was, you know, not to keep painting you as like the little engine that could or the guy who overcame these obstacles and stuff, but I remember you talking about, you know,

your parents, not to their, you know, not to blame them or anything, but like, they weren't junior golf parents, right? And so you're qualifying for these tournaments and, you know, I just, I think you know what I'm referencing. Like, talk to me about some of that. Yeah, we're new. We did not know anything about the golf circuit.

My brother was not in the junior golf circuit. My sister was not and, you know, it was was just new experiences we just thought everything was local and Cincinnati and that was it and then go up to ncr trying to qualify for the optimist to go to San Diego I never made it but it would have been interesting if I would have qualified if we would have gone you know just with I'm sure it would have been like I don know, I don't think this is the right thing or it was just so new to us or it was a new experience and I don't know if my parents knew exactly the path that some of this junior golf and especially now I mean it's crazy. Yeah I mean it's a it's a it's a tour a job basically right. You know these parents like turn into agents that most it seems like. So it was just that was what we played in the summer. You know, it was golf and still playing the other sports

in the fall and in the spring. So it wasn't that big a deal. Are you playing with a group of friends at that point? Like you have a solid group of friends on the west side that you're you're meeting up with and Tuesday afternoons and playing with all summer or not. Not really. It was not until high school, you

know, then I started playing a lot more or that summer leading into freshman year when I started meeting the other guys that were going to X and then that continued the other summers through high school then we then we were playing a lot. But going into that, no, I mean I knew everybody but didn't have my own little group or anything. So it was just go out with my father or he'd drop me off and just play on my own. So when you move on to college, are you attending college with the aspirations of playing professionally? Are you trying to get a scholarship? What are you trying to do?

Yeah, I went to a university since an adi. It was, I don't like to slight slight people but I was going to go to X someone didn't go to X or someone didn't get a scholarship somewhere else and they ended up going to X and it wasn't Matt but my partial of a partial of a partial was pulled and it was gonna be a lot of money and we thought Cincinnati was the right direction to go. I knew the new incoming coach. He was a USDA official in Cincinnati, ran the greater Cincinnati Golf Association. Really good guy and I just wanted to be, you know, work with him.

So we went to Cincinnati and no, I mean, to say in four years, you're going to win five times individually. All right, maybe. But and then you're going to turn pro and move to Florida and be on the tour. However many years after that, I don't think that was ever a reality or going back your college coach. You had met him. I think I'm going to tell you a story.

You qualified for the USGA event. The USGA and your AM. Where was that? That was at in Fargo, North Dakota. And yeah, I qualified at Cincinnati Country Club. Gonna be my first USGA event. What year was that? 95.

So you were going into what you had in the fight squad? Yeah, senior year. Senior year, okay. And that would be my first flight, had never flown and my mom and dad put me on the plane and said, good luck. So that was just get back to the, yeah. You know, they had no idea of the, I guess the magnitude

or just coach Rice was gonna be there. He was gonna take care of me and I was gonna go play. So I had a nice host family up there as well and it was a great experience and I me and I was gonna go play. So I had a nice host family up there as well and it was a great experience and I mean, I was not prepared. How'd you play? How was the? I shot 80, 80, I think.

You know, Mr. Cut, Miss Match Play and I talked to Charles how a lot he was there, played really well. There was a bunch of other guys at that junior arm. Was that that coach or was there? Was that like your first kind of oh shit moment? Like this is whoa, these guys taking it very seriously. Yeah.

What is your note in strinating? Yeah. What did you notice about that? And what was what do you remember about that? Well, just the way they could hit shots and you know, at our level, you shoot par. You were, you know, metalist easily on nine hole match. It courses were playing all the time.

You break 40 of your accountant for sure. So it's, it was just, you know, all right. If I can get it under 80, I'm gonna be, see what happens, these a week. But yeah, I mean, it just had no chance, no chance at making that match play. So what was the transition to college like? A lot of confidence after we won state

and then going to UC, I made the traveling team right away and I'm up playing at every event in my four years. Was that CUSA at that point? We were conference USA, I think all four. I don't know. I don't know the timeline because we were great Midwest. Conference USA and then Big Ease. I think it was CUSA the whole time.

So that was nice. Traveling. That was great experiences. I had some really good teammates. So I'm staying in contact with now and had a lot of good trips and good experiences. Our coach was, he was not a teacher of golf. He was a mentor and a life lessons for sure. So was that a professor? I mean, did you ever need a coach?

I didn't have any experience with a coach. So this seems right in line with with my progression. Right. Right. Exactly. Did you always have a strength, like a particular strength in the game or not really? I would think I've always I guess I've always drove it pretty well, but my my game changed so much as it should, but it was with no watchful eye, you know, there was no changing with a direction. It was how did I feel and what was I looking at on video on the TV on books and magazines and changing my swing? I was a fader than a drawer, then now there's more of like a hook and a slice

and then it was a fade in a draw. So just getting it back and then eventually it got to be pretty straight. So just figured it out. My high school coach, she was a great lady, Miss Joan Whitaker. She was my math teacher as well. Algebra, great lady. We stay with her at Hilton Head. as well. Algebra, great lady.

We stay with her at Hilton Head. Still keeping contact with her, great lady. Are you a good math student? I don't. I guess, but not. I'm a better golfer than I am a student. I'll just say that. Getting ahead of ourselves a little bit,

but do you feel more ownership over your swing now because of growing up that way? Or do you feel like, let me ask another question would be how, you know, when did you start working with a coach? When was it if you even did? Sure. I'd say my full swing is mine. I've really never had too many tweaks.

I work with a short game coach, Bill Davis at Avacoa and Jupiter. We've been together the last six years or so. I was good enough to get to the tour and it took me a while to get to the tour, but as we'll get into. I wasn't good enough to keep my card or really contend and he helped me take my game to the next level.

What's that like when you're struggling or when you're close but not quite breaking through and there's nobody except yourself to figure that out? Sure. Well, you just go hit more balls, right? It's the ball tells you what you need to know. Yeah, I mean, that was a dirt hit. Right. Go hit more balls like in high school and college. You just hit and play. Just go play and you'll figure it out.

What what percentage of guys on tour would you say have a similar approach? Similar. Not that similar then or similar. No, similar now. A lot. Yeah. There's definitely a lot more eyes on us now. Yeah. But there's definitely guys that just like to play golf and they'll figure it out. Going back to college and I'm every time that story about your college coach you guys I think you're down in Houston or something. We're in Houston. Yeah well we had we had rules we didn't have too many well his main rule was there are no rules except you're gonna try some new food so that was it we're in Galveston and he ordered

up a dozen oysters and everyone's got to have one whether you like them or not You're gonna have one so he was it all into where we are trying new cuisine Trying to local fare what get out of we were all I think all of us were from Ohio or Southwestern Ohio since and atty directly so we didn't have much we weren't That diverse I'll say that so we had to get out and try new things. And that one gentleman would not do the try the oyster. And you need to do it. I'm not doing it.

That went on for about five, ten minutes. And he didn't do it. And then he didn't play too much after that. So I'm so sick. I love that. Seriously? That's your story. We had, he didn't have any rules except you got to try something new.

It wasn't just oysters of sushi, it was, you know, wherever we went, we tried something new. Escargo. Yeah, yeah. Steak tartar. I don't know what they follow up there. Do you think that helped you in any way? Well, by the end of four years, I mean, yeah, it was your citizen of the world.

Yeah. Yeah. We didn't, you know, I don't think we followed every NCAA rule. I don't know if I can get us now. Probably out of the statute of limitations now. Honestly, I think they got a lot of shit in there. Do you want to hit this week they got a lot of shit That's what was the most far-flung college event you guys played well we played a men's team and on spring break like the men's club team at Port Royal and Bermuda, okay, that was Kind of off the yeah, no doubt

Who we playing? Uh, we're just playing the men's club team. Is there really a tour of it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty sweet. So yeah, I've been to Bermuda in college and, uh, I didn't play this year, but, uh, I'll definitely go back.

Was that just part of the life lessons tour? Yeah, from exactly. No, a guy in Bermuda. Let's go over there. Yeah. Did you make you wear the shorts with the socks? Yeah, exactly. No, a guy in Vermito. Let's go over there. Did you make you wear the shorts with the socks? Oh, no. That would have been great. That seems like we were right in the teeth. I did go back with my wife this past summer and Wolfie went and his wife and we had a wonderful three days. It was so quick. But I did go out in the shorts, the long socks, the sport coat. I did it fully. It's an interesting vibe.

Interesting look. Any success in college as far as the amateur circuit while you're in college? Or is it mostly just collegiate event focus? Yeah, just collegiate local stuff. And since an adi, I won the Cincinnati Met, the amateur championship there. Where was that?

It was at Cold Stream in one that in 2000. So after my senior year, I'd been runner up sophomore year, I think. And trying to back this beer really quietly. I'm sorry. No success at the USM. Qualifier played at Camargo. Just, you know, obviously, that was the only time

I was playing Camargo was during the qualifier. So I had zero access to that growing up. And none in the publics either. I know the publics has gone away, but I never qualified for that either. So no US opens at this time. I'd qualified through Mac. I don't know if I did until I turned pro. I don't think I was intersection a sectional as an amateur.

Which we'll talk about, Mac too. Yeah, definitely. We'll definitely get to that. And so, and then as far as your college career, was there just a steady progression? Yeah, just a good, better, better. You know, you win some, that's good. You know, but I wasn't the field that, you know, that you want to brag about.

You're pretty humble guy. How many times did you win? Five times. Okay. Five individual events and, you know that that we you want to brag about. You're a pretty humble guy. How many times did you win? Five times. Okay. Five individual events and you know one in Princeton and Xavier's tournament. That was nice. Winning XU's tournament. Definitely. Definitely nice. So leave in college. What's your mindset? What are you looking to do? Yeah. I mean I played really well that summer in 2000. I wish I would have gone

to Q school, turned pro and went to Q school right away. On the city am, another celebrity amateur of Anne pros of anyone, both the amateur and the pro division, but I couldn't accept the money in the pro. And then I won my first pro event. I was a Southern Ohio open. Was it four bridges and heritage, I believe. I was really playing well, I guess. I had nothing else to compare to than just where I was playing at the time. That would have been nice to go to Q-School that fall. But I turned pro, I was working at Miami Whitewater assistant pro there

and trying to get a plan together of what to do and how to do it and met up with some really nice people from Ryber Sports Management. and how to do it and met up with some really nice people from Rhyber Sports Management, Berks Rhyber, who's a legend in the golf world. He just passed. It was sad to hear. And talking to my mom and dad and my grandfather, I think I want to play professional golf. How am I going to do this?

We had to raise some money to get me to Florida. But I think later back, I think I want to play professional golf. How am I going to do this? We had to raise some money to get me to Florida. But I think later back, I think Harry, who we mentioned earlier, my dad had ran into him in that fall, and I think he was trying to convince Harry to tell me to not to go. I think you should just stay here and work at the club here. I don't know. Is he good enough, Harry, to make tour or so. That was an interesting. What did you think at that time? Well, my dad, I don't think he told me that, but he was very positive with me. And I think

I, I think I was, but I, you know, I don't know, you know, when you don't have much access to all you do is watch and golf, you always think you're just as good as everyone who's playing. So was life gonna be in golf regardless of if it was tour or I think so. Club Pro, you know, what was your major finance but like I said earlier I was not the best dude and I was definitely into golf was my focus and yeah it showed so. I've got a little work to do to get my degrees. Well, you mentioned your your in system pros that like an official assistant pro.

You do the PAT, you do all that stuff. Passed my PAT in the fall of 2000 and. Was it nerve-racking? Very nerve-racking. Was it really? No. So what you got to shoot like 81, 81. You drove down to Lexington and that was the nearest one

and got through no problem. And then I had to take it again, because I guess it ran out when I got back in the club business in 04. I had to take it again. So you were telling a story about, I don't know if it was picking the range, or hitting balls back towards the ring.

And that was how we'd practice at the time. And a new guy came in and said, who the hell says that? I'm not here hitting the balls. Well, my boss at the time who worked for Harry, Steve Wider, he's a good friend, he does a lot of my, he does the, my ball marker, POTUS ball marker, Twitter handle,

he's a history teacher now in South Florida. He would let me get away with a lot of things because I just want to play golf. I got to wash carts and do all that, pick the range, but I want to play golf. So I'd be picking the range and you got to get the balls off the hill. You can't take the picker on the hill up on the greens and so I'll just be, no one's on the range hitting. So I'm hitting them myself, just falling their directions, hit them off, but they didn't

say hit full swings. So then our boss, the director of all the park district came through and he's out there looking out the back window and he goes and gets Steve. He's like, Steve, what? I can curse here. You did say what? What in the hell is he doing? And Steve's like, I'll go get him right away, sir, right away. And he comes out there. Herman, you're going to get my ass fired. Getting that picker and let's go. I said, hey, I got to hit him off the hill.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You had to get ready for a guest. You never know how things work out. But I mean, I enjoyed working there, enjoyed every step along the way. That wouldn't be my last time in a picker or in the golf business. That was two. So that takes in a picker or in the golf business.

That was two. That takes us to Florida. Yeah, moved to Florida. When you say, like, we had to raise some money to get you to move to Florida. Was that mean? Well, we were going to play, I was going to play the Golden Bear tour in June of 01. So 16,000 buy-in pretty much. We were playing for our own money,6 mini tour want to be want to be tour pros are putting their own money up so it's basically a thousand bucks in a vent. Yeah for entry. Yeah I don't know the finances who was getting the big cut of it I don't know what how much we were playing for of our own money and all the fees and everything else but it's like 30 grand first

place so not yeah it's pretty pretty pretty big money for many tours and stuff. So, did that for four years and Q schools. So, 012, 3 and 4, made enough playing Golden Bear to pay for Q school, pay for the next year's entry fee, and then I was working at the PGA Village as well for a place to play. We played many of the events at those courses. I'm in Port St. Louis. That was where you went down first and foremost. Yeah, how'd you get there?

How'd you end up there? Well, Steve Wider, who was at the club I was at, he went down and started working there. He was an assistant for the PJ of America there. And I knew he was there. And it was like, all coming together, I'm going to go stay with him. He had to get rid of his roommate who

was taking a new job, so I slept on his couch for the first month, and then I got my own room, and I stayed with him for two years. But yeah, Steve Wider, his couch was, we call it butter. It's essential. Yeah. Good year out there, like, you know, no one, no five.

Are you knocking off a couple of things in these? Are you? No wins, I did not win, obviously you're, you're very heavily skewed toward the win, too. It is. It is. So I know I didn't make money on the year, doing the taxes if I go back and look at that. But making enough to, I guess, do it again and keep

the dream alive. That's all you have. And many toward golf is, how do I pay for the next event or Q school so I can do this again. So that was it four years of Q school heartbreak. I was going to say how was Q school going? My first year in O1 was the closest I ever was until I made it through. I mean I always made it through first stage, no problem. But second stage it's all right. I have a tour card or I have a nationwide tour card Web.com corn fairy or you have nothing if you don't get through that's what people don't realize

I don't think is like the second stage is what people will say is the most stressful thing I mean yeah if you miss it first stage at least you were. All right, I'm not close. I got some stuff to wear. I got, you know what you get. But at second, you're, you could be on the tour of these next couple of whole, the whole go well and you play well at finals, or you're back in the approach shop, back on the mini tours, doing whatever

you were doing this year, you got to do again. And were you a scoreboard watcher? Like, did you know exactly where you stood? Well, the good thing about this was there's no scoreboards at that time. There was no scoreboard. No cell phones, no nothing. You playing over in Brooksville or which site?

Dade City. Yeah. Was that, Brooksville was the more recent Lake Javita. Okay. Lake Javita. And Orange County National, those sites of horrors. Yeah. My wife. It's been a lot of people whose careers have been nuked to those places. Yeah, yeah, and Orange County National. Yeah, those sites of horrors

My wife's been a lot of people who's who's careers have been nuked to those places My wife is we've driven back from West Side of Florida with nothing but the Ohio State Michigan It would end on a Saturday and it was usually that November Ohio State Michigan would be playing that afternoon and would be silence Listening to what what happened that year. What was close? Yeah, my first Q school, my first second stage just gag it coming in. I was well within the number with three or four holes to go and plug it in a bunker, make a double on a short part three, just nerves.

Not so nervous. I mean, nothing's ever prepared me for this. So I was very nervous and miss by a shot. Heartbreak. So no status, no anything. Nothing. Go back to the pressure. I can do to see the light you're like, I think I'm close. But there's no more hope to doubt at that point. Exactly. So go back to another year, 2002, go to get through first stage, go to second stage, miss. Close? Close. They were all close. I don't think I ever really was out of it, you know, just there to fill the time or anything.

So I don't remember this, I remember year one and then I year the one I got through. So, but those four, and then after the fourth one, it was like, I'm not doing this again. I'll go to Q school, but I'm not doing this year was the last four years. It's like, all right, and that's where everyone, that's what happens. Guys get fed up or they get quit and run out of money. Well, that's what I was gonna say,

is not to pry too much, but I mean, paying a picture of what that's like financially. I mean, are you working at it? You're working at it? Yeah, no, is it? Is it a racquet of credit cards? Yeah, is it credit card? Is it, there's a hundred bucks in the bank account?

Is it, what's the, I mean, what's the situation? Yeah, I definitely ran up a little dad on the card, so and then you got to call home, hey, my credit card's not looking too good. God, that seems like it would add so much fucking stress when you're trying to make putt, like coming down the stretch, right? I mean, do you think about that kind of stuff

when you're playing tournaments and stuff? Or no? Are you good at separate lines? If you don't think about it. Yeah. Think about everything when you're playing golf. In the midst of all that, did that? That's what I think about everything when I'm playing golf

and there's nothing on the line. Did you still feel like your game was progressing each year? Or was it? Yes, but it was always a results face. To your inner and having a good time. And there's plenty of guys that never made it. Yeah, you know, and that were plenty good enough. And I just figured I was going to be in that boat

and got into the club business and started at System Pro at the PGA Village right there where I was working. Bloodtailer hired me and he was a great man and I got to play played section events south Florida section. Are you just cleaning up and just cleaning that hell out of the section press? Yeah. So that was it.

I played really well. It kind of did some money, right? It can be. You got to win the events. You got to get in. You got to get your membership and you have to be qualifying for the national assistance, your state open and then a club professional championship.

I would think there's probably a lot of good club pros down there as well. Yeah, definitely a guys section. A lot of guys, yeah. A lot of guys splitting time between there and up east. Or is it? Yes, yes, definitely in North and South going on. Not so much because in the section, you have pick which one you're gonna play Yeah, and they would all pick the North because you're playing in the summer

So you'd see the northern guys come down on the winner and you play golf with them and games with them So but four years of that so it was two at the two in Florida then I got a call to And it's still going to queue school missed again in oh five close oh four oh five Yeah, that was that was the fourth year One two three four five. So this my fifth year. These are all second stage. She's yeah my wife and When did you meet your wife? Oh, oh two? Okay, so pretty early on in the process then So she's been there to see most of all the progressions. And if she knew the deal, she wasn't giving you an ultimatum,

like, hey, we got a year, or we got to hang it up after this. So she was there. She was long for the ride, very supportive, whatever I thought I wanted needed to do. She would help out. Deciding to go back to the club professional ranks was definitely based on the fact that we were engaged and I think I had a few...

I thought I kind of... I tend to retreat a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. The tours still there, you know, there's nothing saying I can't get there. It's always Q-school, no matter what I do for it here from this moment till next year at this moment, you know, it doesn't have to be mini-touraged. And trying, I can get a job. And so that's where I got into the club business again. Start there, P-A-T, doing the teaching some lessons. You got through your P-A-T, okay?

Yeah, I did. I did. I did. A quick pause from the interview too. Also, talk to you about our friends from original Penguin. Original Penguin has made possible our entire season of tourist sauce season five we went to the Carolinas if you haven't seen any of these episodes so far.

This this evening last night depending on your listen to this Tuesday nights we like to roll out all the episodes and this past week we rolled out episode eight which was a triple header we don't do this very much but we did a divide and conquer episode that stretched out across pine needles, Randy and Neil went over to pine needles. Tron and Soli, the sea suite went over to the very classy mid pines in North Carolina and myself and our young hitter Justin Hubert went out to Southern pines, is the muni, right outside the gates of the Pinehurst Resort. All you can see all of that action in Tour of Saus,

season five, episode eight, presented by original Penguin. So I wanted me to mention that they have these great cotton shorts that have been making his quarantine all that much more comfortable. Good news for all NLU listeners, if you would like to order anything from original Penguin e-commerce, you know, has never been hotter in the streets

than it is these past few days. Originalpanguine.com slash NLU 30 will get you 30% off. Go check that out. Sign up for their newsletter. They will email you a one time code for 30% off on their shop without a further do. Let's get back to the interview with Jim Herman. Was this in Florida? This is in Florida.

Yeah. Yeah. So, two years of that, we got married in 05. So I started working in04 and05. Married in05, September of05. Got a call from Mickey Gallagher in the fall or winter of, I'd say December maybe it called actually as my college roommate, Tracey Mount. He was working for Mickey at Maplewood Country Club in Maplewood, New Jersey and Mickey was getting the head pro job at Trump National and Bedminster and Tracey was going to work for him and then he took

a job with titleists and he's like, Mickey, you got to call Jim, he's through his level one and you know, he's a great player but he's getting into golf as soon as he needs to get up here in New Jersey. It's where the money is to be made in the section and you know if he wants to be a club professional and you got to get him up here and talk to Mickey and went up interviewed and got the job. So just married no September go five. I left Carolyn was teaching middle school science. Where is she from originally?

I feel it, I'll feel it. So it was an easy decision because her family was just an hour and 10 minutes from Bedminster, North of Philly there and took the job there. Two years of that, the first year went pretty quick and then the second year slowed down a little bit. And you up there a year round, as far as like winter and everything. I think he was good.

He let me leave and do Q-School. So that was out in October. So things slowed down pretty quickly up there. How'd that key school go versus? So that was my first year after meeting the... Mr. Trump and the president, and he gave me a lot of confidence, but I still miss. So it was kind of like, all right. Here we are.

I'm definitely feeling like I'm probably not not gonna make it after that six-time and And it was okay, you know, it was close again, but I felt like I had a job in a future So there was things are a little different than the first few years. It's not like tunnel vision just No, no, I felt like I was vision just on the broker here. No, no, I felt like I was one of the best pros playing pros in New Jersey and it was in Florida. So, you know, I'm somewhere in between, I'm better than where I am, but I'm not good enough to get where I want to go. Are you using, like, say the section events or that sort of thing too fun? Because I mean, Q school is not cheap. Oh, no. Right. you using that to fund Q-Sall or the e-gear?

Just everything. And then members are the best. They take care of their pros. They love everyone wants skin in the game, I think. And I know the president gets a lot, most of the notoriety on helping me out. And but there's so many people along the way that have helped me. And Cincinnati and Florida, the help pay for Q- for Q schools that don't get the notoriety or recognition that I've told them,

but, you know, on shows like this or things like that. You can shout a few of them out if you want. And then again, at Bedminster, you know, there were definitely five, six, seven members that helped out, put in, you know, a thousand dollars dollars here a thousand dollars there to pay for Q school and You know, so we kind of glossed over you mentioned you started working with Trump and he gave you a lot of confidence I mean talked to me about the that that meeting the first time you met him and right what that was like so You know that just that first spring Mickey's area is like I put your spikes on you know the boss is on his way out. You and you and Dean are going to play Dean was the other assistant and really good friends with Dean Candleys, a head professional at St. David's in Philadelphia now. And he's

like, get your spikes on you guys are ready to go and just really played well that first round with them. And said you made, you made like, you voted that for your first. Yeah, so in normal Trump fashion, he hits you backhanded with his hand right on your shoulder and he's like, you know, Jim, what are you doing here? You know, you should be on tour. I've played with tour players. You know, just, I've seen for three holes, your way better you know, three holes. Three holes, exactly. So I got to be playing with him a lot and he continued on that. You know, he always would talk me up. I had so much confidence when I'd play with him and it's your high guy. He is my high guy for sure. Well, I mean, I've, my two wins on tour. I've

played with the president the week or two weeks before. So really, there is something to that. Interesting. He knows that and I know that. And a lot of other people know that. So the story gets kind of distilled down or oversimplified probably whenever it's mentioned as like an obligatory mention on the broadcast, but how did he impact your career? What's the kind of the story of how he took you from where you are, or where you were to kind of where you are?

I guess. Yeah. It was still on me to get through. No, no, no, no. That was way overstated. I'm like, he didn't get me to get through. No, no, no, that was way overstated. I'm like, he didn't get you through Qs. No, he didn't get it. I just mean financially what was for.

Sure. So I had to get through. And when I finally got through, he was there to write the checks for the nationwide tour at the time, three years, paying 50 grand. You don't get that very often. So you just kept, you know, salary plus more, you know, more than what I was making, you know, just kept paying me to not be there and to be on the tour. So going back to travel expenses and it was just amazing. That he would do that and he always would say, you know, I'm a golfers the third worst investment.

I or anyone could make. So just so you know, just so you know, the first is a Broadway musical, the second is a heavyweight boxer and the third is a aspiring touring professional. So go do it. I would probably put thoroughbred horror stuff in that. Yeah, that's right. So going back to what you got in Jersey narrowly missed. And then the following year, that second year and Thursday. Yeah. Played well. Played well in section events.

Just missed out on the met open twice. I won the assistance championship both years. Played well in the national assistance in 06 and 07. And then going to Q-chool, maybe I was distracted. I went to a tailor-made staff professional Pro Am in Puerto Vallarta in between first stage and second stage. So I went from Puerto Vallarta to Houston. So maybe it was just a little bit of a take-off. Martin get away and we changed venues. There was terrible flooding. They seemed to have that a lot in Houston.

Yeah. It was supposed to be at Deerwood and it moved to the TPC woodlands and, you know, in good shape coming in down the stretch. I mean, fast forward to the last hole. I know, I know we get back to this scoring. We have a really good feeling that Bogey gets this through. So my caddy who was Danny Canali, he was the locker room attendant at the club at Bedminster, he had caddyed while, while before and he always, he was the my biggest supporter moment I got

there. I mean, he, he watched me hit balls once and I mean, he was, you ever make it? I'm on the bag. I hit my second shot left of the green lake up on the right side cannot go on the lake. Obviously I put it up left of the green. He runs over to the scoreboard while I'm lining up. He's like, yeah, bogey's going to make it. Bogey is good. I made bogey. I mean, it's not like I made a part. I make it easy, but I had an actually had like a two and a half footer for Bogey. So this is O6, O7. O7, Fall O7.

Fall O7 got through. Finally, go to final stage and teeing it up at Panther Lake and Crooked Cat or land. I keep forgetting that this is just to get to final stage. That was to get to final stage. So basically you have nine years here that we're talking of between college and these five years, five years, six years of kind of working seven years. So 11 years now of just kind of being like, man, I'm pretty sure I'm good enough, but like I just can't cross through. Like, I must be the most frustrating in Houston too. You're planning the 10 cup course, right? We're supposed to do what the 10 was. We ended up with the rain.

We went to the woods. Oh, okay. Okay. I love 10 cups. And then, so how long of a gap between second stage and third stage? Oh, it was a couple of weeks. So, did you go back up to Jersey?

No, back to Florida. Okay. We had still our at our home in Florida. So, back to Florida, getting ready and prepping and then go there and here we go. Six rounds and. Yes, it's about like of that. How was that? It was just another new experience,

no way to really describe it other than, all right, at least I've made it. Did you feel freed up at all? Yeah, for sure. I've made it past, you know, the next checkpoint and I'm here, all right, now let's go do it. Can we do the tour? I'm sure I wouldn't have been ready.

And that's what I was going to say is obviously for clarity. It's well before the changes were made. And so if you finished top 25, you're straight to the PJ tour. So we had like 70, 75 spots to play with. 25 for the tour and then another 50 for full nationwide. Right. Full Corn Fairy tour. Card, which was great. I mean, there was no reshuffle. I mean, you've got every start. You're in your end. Yeah. It was a fully exempt card, which was so different than they do it now.

Yeah. It's pretty difficult now. I mean, so much jockey. And I mean, you don't have time to breathe. Right. For four events, you're like, oh, am I out? So how'd it go? I finished 65th, I think.

So comfortably. Yeah. Was it starting quick and then holding on for your life or was it It was just just 65 65 you know staying in that area was this stressful as possible right right it was never gonna be easy But I remember that first round I shot you know, whatever it was one or two under and Frank look lighter Warner to under and Frank Lickletter shot 10 under. And I was like, oh, yeah, all right.

Was that the year on tour? He's been on tour for a while. This might have been the year. Well, we're gonna talk you guys too, right? Like, since that year, yeah, yeah. As then, round two, 10 under par, I'm like, hmm. Yes, so this was the year that this was like, I used to work at golf week.

This was a legendary story when we were at golf week, but he, Licklider went on to win, I believe, right? And he wouldn't talk to the press all week. He wouldn't, like my buddies were all. That's glasses on the big. Yeah, my buddies were all there, like doing the, post-round interview is in everything.

And Licklider would not talk to anybody in the media, the whole week, just like, kept blowing them off, kept blowing them off, kept blowing them off, until the final day, and he won. And it was finally like you know Yeah, what's what's going on so my buddy big plate ray. Yeah, it was like Yeah, Frank so you know you haven't talked to the media all week like what what was that about? It goes well, you know hogan and talk to the press

And Dan Jenkins picked it up with a story is that yeah hogan never went to Q school either That's a whole other thing, but that cue school will live in my fond memories. I didn't realize that was your shining moment. Yep. So got through, I mean everything that was a success. Obviously just having a full full card on the corn fairy and you know a place to play and I'm out of the shop and I was up in New Jersey section where probably pumped up. They were very happy. Up on them. Yeah, a couple of years. Yeah.

I remember I showed up to the first assistance event and you know, I don't think many people knew I was working at Trump yet and then you know, pull up and I see my buddy Sam Kang and he's like, what and how are you doing here? I just took a job up here. He's like, well, that sucks. Partyies over. All right. So you're on the, you're on the nationwide tour. What's the word where you're going from there? Teed up at Panama. I think that was my first event. That was pretty cool. Traveling, traveling out of the country, making all the arrangements. It was just, it was where, you know, traveling for my living and not the tour, but we're close.

Yeah. Panels of Far Cry from Fargo. Overarching question, I guess. But what do you think was the difference in breaking through? Was it timing? Was it something different you changed? Or no difference. No difference. You just got through. You know, maybe like I said, just more confidence, maybe having a future in golf and in the club business. This doesn't work out. I think that probably helped. That's interesting. Yeah, so Panama, how to go. Yeah, I made my first

card. I didn't do a whole lot that year, finished like 90s second on the on the money list. I had to go back to school, made it to finals, had a full card again. You know, three, two years of that, that second year, another struggle in the mid, you know, mid 70s, I or so and conditional status. I'm not fully exempt, but I'm conditional. And then the first event is in New Zealand. And this is in 2010, my third year. I was gonna say, oh, nine, you had some good,

you finished T4 in Panama, third in New Zealand, that event. And that was back when the nation why you used to go to Australia, New Zealand for, well, like a month. So what did I finish that year, is it even sad? You finished 65th, I mean, 93K in 2018. So I had to be fully exempt then.

Yeah, but those first few, those first two events were split, split events with the Australasian Tour. That's why. And so I was first alternate. I was in in New Zealand, first alternate for Muna in 2010. Missed a cut in New Zealand after having a good finish. I did year prior. So a little bummed.

And then I got in, Moona, on the way there. And then I shoot 62 in round one. We gotta go back to the caddy. Yeah, who caddy for you? Yeah. So I didn't take, I didn't know if I was getting in. I didn't, I think my caddy that I had the first two years, he may have left me. So one of the other assistants,

he was working at the Trump as well, Joe Griffin. And he's like, you can make it on tour or on the nationwide. I'll leave, I don't want to be a club pro. I'll go out there, I'll caddy for you. I said, all right, yeah, we'll see. And then so I did and he did, he quit his job and then he left. And then we're in Boise, Idaho, two years in my second year. And he's like, you know what? I think I'm

going to live out here. Met a girl. And he moved to Boise. Just stopped to stop the tour, stopped the Cateon. I think we were like, all right, no problem. Was that the end? That was like second. No, we were like. Yeah, it was caught towards the end. Is that no problem? And you know, I think I needed to shake things up not too far off. Like I said, I think I finished 65. So, but yeah, he moved to Boise. It's just crazy how your life changes other people's life. Now he got back in the club business.

Very happy. He was a head pro. And then he got out and he got married. And he's I think he's way more happier. All the most club pros that got out of being a club pro and then they got a nice other job They're like, yeah, I should have did this made this decision earlier, but so yeah, I got a local in New Zealand real nice guy Malcolm and then I go to Moona just gonna get a local again, you know, wasn't didn't know if I was gonna get in guys are lined up

See a nice young kid. It's going to be good. He's probably been around here a bunch, you know, Steven, Steven Bright. I remember everyone's name. That's good. Steven was a good kid. I figured he was an experienced caddy

been around the game or whatever. And we're walking down the first hole in the practice round. I was like, how long have you been around here, Steven? Well, I've never really cadded before. I know the game a little bit, but I'm unemployed right at the moment. I heard there was some work down here, so I thought I'd come down. So I was finished out the nine holes and I don't know when it was on eight or nine. I think I'm just going to give him $100 and thank him for the time. And I think I need someone more experience.

I was like, you know what? I think this was supposed to happen. So I didn't say anything and I said, all right, we finished up our 18-hole practice on Steam. I'll see you tomorrow and we'll just keep going. And then I had two instructions. You know, carry the bag and keep me distracted. I just talked to me about anything, movies or whatever.

I'll get the numbers, I'll do everything else. Pretty amazing when you look back. You shot 62 and round one. Yeah. And under. No idea. No, I think he knew it was good, but I don't think he knew I mean he talked to him sure his mates After the round. I'm sure he was how to go. Yeah, it's really easy. It was great. Yeah, I made everything

so yeah 62 I don't know what the Day by day was but 62 70 75 70. Yeah, so For the W though for the dub. W beat Chris Kirk and they play off and that was pretty much the sign that I was going to be on the tour. I mean, I don't know how these things happen, but you know, we all have our moments. Every golfer is going to say I had my chance, you know, and that was my chance in that playoff. I remember one of the rules officials.

He's driving me back. He's like, let's go. This is it, you know, don't fuck up. I actually was funny. I was out with Johnny Thompson the other night, the cowboy. He said we're talking and he's like, oh, yeah, Hermie, man, like, I put him in that, like triangle driver they had. And he was like, I thought, he was like, I thought this was the dumbest club

we'd ever produced. And he gave it to Hermann. He was crushing it. Sure enough he wins with it. The tour IZ. After that season, did you go back to Florida instead of going back to New Jersey? Yeah, we were based out of Florida.

So we had got married. Oh, okay. Yeah, we had definitely had Florida's our is our home Even the the summers we were working in in New Jersey. So back to Florida getting ready for the grind I'm what was winter on tour and then we go to I think I would have gone to Panama then and Okay, go and then but then I had like six different caddies for The start of the year and Carolyn's like can you just decide on somebody right now? What's the big guy say?

What did Trump say? Oh, so pleased, obviously. So, you know, the time, time zones and, you know, so far away, it was a pretty cool once I got back at the phone call. And, you know, he always writes you a nice note. So I'll have got plenty of those. And, yeah, just pretty, pretty good stuff. I mean, the journey, we all have journeys plenty of those. And yeah, just pretty good stuff. I mean, the journey, we all have journeys

and then just to be able to like, all right, at the end of the year, we're gonna go to the tour championship and I have a pretty, like 95% chance of making it here. And then I start the time after that win with like six missed cuts. So you get a little bit worried, and then I start the time after that win with like six missed cuts. So you get a little bit worried, but I played, I don't know.

I think I did. I think it's crazy like that. The Torch Amhert Ship, yeah, you probably needed to finish high. I think you finished like T7, it was at Daniel Island in South Carolina. How many missed cuts did I have after that? It was quite a few. Just see how your focus changes. So what was that like? Did you just on top of the world? I mean, do you know exactly. I think you're going to do

is like just going to have figured it out. You can just get a new caddy. That's what you're going to shoot 10 under and you know, that season you know, you made 15 cuts. You missed 10, but definitely a couple rough stretches. Yeah. So you're onto the PJ tour. I'm on the tour. I mean, with the stop in Australia, go back to Australia that fall for the Australian Masters had to play another Australian event to get my win on the Australisian tour to

count. And then I'll be like in the top five and their money list. So I had a chance to get into other things, which ended up happening the following year. I lost my card on the tour, but I played the HSBC Champions because it was second or third on the game within the game. I mean, it's crazy. So, but yeah, then the Australian gym Herman back to Australia for the Australian Masters at Victoria Golf Club in the fall of 2010 with the, I don't even think we don't have a, it's still a January start to the tour at this time, right? So I think it's your first event. So many would be my first event, you know. Remember anything different about it?

Everything bigger, smaller, you pictured what was the feeling. I'd say everything was bigger. Yeah. about it. Everything bigger, smaller, you pictured what was the feeling. I'd say everything was bigger. You're just seeing everybody and you're like, a true rookie, where am I feeling? How old are you at this point? 32. Okay, so not.

Right. Yeah, that's about 10 years ago. 32, so. Any star's drunkenness at 32? Are you pretty jaded by the industry. Well, no, I'm I'm awed by everybody. I mean, it's this is like holy cow. I'm here. Like none of it still made sense.

Yeah. None of it. Still this day, I don't even know. What was the biggest takeaway from your rookie year? This is going to be a holy cow. A car. Yeah. And still no coach.

So who are you leaving it? So who are you leaving it? Like advice and stuff. Anybody? It's hard to remember back then who I was on with. But later in my journey, you know, guys like Michael Putnam, Justin Hicks, Steve Weakcroft, Danny Summer Hayes, those were my guys I came up with, got out of the web, got out of corn fairy with, so played a lot of practice rounds with them.

So we were all kind of new to it, all going through it together. And we all had our own successes along the way. We would be on, we'd be off, on, off, a couple top 10s. One of us would be doing better than the other, and we're all just trying to beat each other kind of Seem like I mean so your first your 2011 season two top 25s 13 made cuts nine missed cuts But it seemed like just making cuts, but not really making no wishes, right? Well, I was never good enough short game wise or Pudding to really stand up over four rounds and over the course of the year.

So that went on for many seasons. So then you went back to the queue? I think I would probably have been in the final stage. I don't think I had to, I didn't get through to get my tour card back. So I guess I was back onto the, onto the webs. And then I had another great year. So got through key school. No, I had to go back to the web in 12.

Top 25, yeah, I top 25 with no wins. And that was a better year overall. Felt like, you know, I had more, it's a lot more quality finishes. Finish 25 on the number. And I was right on number, I mean, was this the James Hahn year? Yeah, yeah, so tell me that story. So again, pressure, you're just

feeling it like this is never going to end. This was in where Texas. This is it McKinney. Yeah. So Mike had he currently, Mike Darby, he's on the bag for Adam Hadwin. And we talk about this all the time. Because Adams played really well. He needed a third alone. Adam did to move into the top 25 and James Han was leading go to the fourth round. He didn't, he's not going to win, but he needs a birdie on the last hole to finish T three. And then that would take Adam's money and chop it up a little bit. And then I was, I'm 26 by only, you know, a couple hundred dollars.

Right. You're sitting in the clubhouse, sitting in the clubhouse. They're sitting on the putting green. It was Mike and I, we talk about it. He's like, yeah, we're sitting there watching. I didn't see you anywhere. I was like, well, I was in the clubhouse. My wife's huddled up with her girlfriends, you know, and Wolfie your agent is, is, he's,

crunching all the numbers and stuff. Right. He's, he's not there and he's, you know, he's on the phone. He's like you're fine. You know, he's gonna burn here like so I'm glad you think I'm fine. The concern is basically like is he gonna it's a par five. He's not trying to win right? He didn't he's not gonna win. He can't win. He's within eagle. Yeah, and as he played safe and great. I mean it's the last hole. All right. I'm just to hit it up there. Whatever you make par and you get out of here.

Take your fourth and he's going to be on the tour. He's on the tour. You know, it's card from walked up. So it's like, yeah, just by time. What's going to happen here? He doesn't know that he's going to decide everything. Where's it? He hits it up by the green.

Perfect drive. Part five. At least it's a part five finish. I got a chance. And then he blows it way right. And there's like, you know, there, you know least it's a par five finish like a chance and then he blows it way right and just like You know there Mike and Adam were definitely feeling good and my wife and I and I think my cat he had left he was so upset He had left. I think he had found a bar down the street. He just wanted to get away

So that we're like all right, he needs an up and down. It's not an easy one. Short-sided flop shot. And he flopped it to three feet and made the pot. You got to be kidding me. So, do you write that in there? I mean, after that flop, and then you're like, we can't miss this. He just hit this shot. He can't miss.

Right. But, you know, it's like, it's like three feet. It's not, it's not a kick in. It's like three feet. I'm sure it was longer than that. We just, I just want to, I'm telling myself, it's like three feet. It's not a kick in, it's like three feet. I'm sure it was longer than that. I just want to, I'm telling myself it's three feet, so I think he's gonna make it. Yeah, someone needs to figure out the right way to kind of storytell that. How often the guys' careers are defined by other guys' shots.

Yeah, it's unbelievable. Well, every year at Portland and... At Portland and at Greensboro. I mean, it's just brutal. I haven't been through it and there are two guys every year, one's in, one's out. That makes it every, that goes through this every year and it's, it's stocks. I feel like you maybe correct me from wrong, but the difference between, you know, 125 and 126 is a lot different than the difference between

25 and 26 on the Web tour. You've finished 26 on the Web, Cornfairy tour. It is like, all right, man, we're on the tour again. Play really well next year, and you finish 126 on the PGA tour. And it's like, well, you'll probably get 12 stars, you might reshuffle up, you might, you know, there's all these kind of, whereas I think the broadcast kind of paints it as like, wow, this guy's going to be in the bread line if he if he finishes 126. Yeah, he's gonna be unemployed Yeah, and I finished 126 he made a you know 800,000 right yeah exactly

So start the year he's gonna play like he said he's gonna play more than 12 probably right where the season is now So so before we get to the the real highlights a couple wins So before we get to the real highlights, a couple of wins, about this time, Trump is probably starting to become much more of a serious contender. Would that be right? There's this pretty far before that. So in 12, he did think about running. Yeah.

So he has to have a lot of back. Romney, no. I mean, there was just the talk he was never going to run. It was going to talk about it and then, you know, he won't. When it's time, when it time comes, he has to commit, he won't run. And then, when it, in 16, we thought the same thing. Yeah. Or in 15 or 14, whenever that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, I'm doing it.

Yeah, and then he did it and then we're like, all right. So what, as someone who just asked you about it, what's it like to be asked about it all the time? I'm not, I don't shy away from it. I know that and I'll take any of the questions. It's mostly 95% has always been positive, positive questions. So it's not hard to talk about positive things

and people want to know about it and are supported above him. So, there's the occasional person that is not a Trump fan and they want to voice their displeasure and you just take it and you just let it go and everyone's allowed to have their own opinion on him and every issue. It seems like your relationship's not tied to politics. It's not tied to politics. It's not that was I was an employee of his He traded it treated me wonderfully. I was very proud to carry his logo as club logo

That was an employee of and his crest and there were a lot of good members a lot of good co-workers that that Which that means you know a little bit more than just Trump. Yeah. It's the employees, it's the members and things like that. With the place the world is at right now, I guess, is the easiest way to say it, do you feel pressure to be more politicized one way or the other? Or is it easier to run for the hills when someone tries to bring it up? Like I said, I won't avoid the question.

It comes up in press conferences or whatever. So, we talk about it and then it kind of goes away. Is it frustrating that people seem to stop there? Yeah, kind of go right to it and it's like the, you know. Like you said, he's a Trump guy. Wolfie gets very upset with that. He's like, there's more, you know, let's get into it.

There's more here. So he hates when it's on the broadcast. They get your three bio clips and they just run with that. Well, so to that end, you had success now. You have like multiple time winner. If it was any kind of hassle, you could do away with the logo. So why do you keep it? Or why?

Like I said, it's more than just Trump. It's that association. And with the club, it's more than just Trump's Trump bedmanster and very proud of my time there. And very thankful for his support. He strikes me as a, correct me if I'm wrong, of course. But he strikes me as a correct me from wrong, of course, but he strikes me as a big first impressions guy and I oh, I It's wonder if you like I've been wondering that since we had dinner if you playing well on literally the first time

You played with him if that how big of an impact that had on your career and you are dead 100% accurate on that so yeah, I feel would have been a bad day or an average day You had to just been like oh, it's my yeah, that, it's another guy, another guy, right? Yeah, exactly. But I played very well and you know, it's a, some things are just come down to that, that one time. Yeah, that's unbelievable. So going back, you played a tour, 2013, finished 139th. Yeah, getting closer, it's like, all right. Had a really good stretch from like Memphis through the end of July there.

So then, okay, so then, then I'm assuming you went back to Q school? Yeah, I must have got through there. Not as much success in 2014. I think we had web finals. Web finals started then, so that was a nice change. It made it easier. I got to go back to Q school. I got another chance here. Yeah. I mean, it made it easier for your guys that were out

here and to keep their cards. Go back. Do those four tournaments. You used to the, you know, that grind. Sure. And then in 2014, probably one of the tougher years of your career. It seems like you finished one 82nd, 11 made cuts, but really nothing. No top 25s. Just like, I think that was probably it. That was when we were like, well, I need a coach. I need help. I'm good enough to get around the cuts and top 25s,

but I can't get any better than that. You've mentioned short game stuff. Was that what it was specifically? Yeah, I think I was always good enough ball striking. If we looked at my ball striking numbers, if we had them back then, they were okay. They were tour average, but I was definitely below on short game and budding. It was always an uphill battle. That seemed like more of a thing you can't fix on your own than then the full swing. I think that I think there's some things with your swing, but when you feel like you're

in a groove with your swing, you know, you don't want to do a lot of changing with that. Yeah, tweaks. Yes. Maybe some setup issues, but yeah, I think short game, you're always there's issues, but yeah, I think short game you're always there's some technique and confidence, you know, what what can you get for you need the technique to fix your confidence. You remember technique stuff you were working on? Yeah, well, we were very sick. There's a lot of sickos that listen to this podcast. I have to get really hyper specific. Like, God, why didn't you ask him about like, what specific? Yeah, I mean, with my coach, I met Bill and Mickey he's like all right I got to write the guy for him Bill Davis he's at Jupiter Hills Country Club got his number you call him up and he was known as a short game wizard and he played the tour back and

I don't even know when he He's listening, he's going to be disappointed. But he was teammates with Gary Koch, Florida, played the tour for a quick cup of coffee. Yes. I say that, and he's like, ah, it's bullshit. I'm very longer. How long have you, how many events did you play, Bill? And it was very, some very simple things that we were just trying to fix.

I was just moving, you know, moving when I shouldn't have been and not moving when I should have been. Moving on chips and not moving on pitches and moving on chips, like moving your head, you know, it's just, just basics that I didn't have, you know, just someone there to hold your hat, you know, hold, you know, don't look, right? You know, just little thing. Like simple stuff, but not easy. Not easy, but just, and then just some repetitions with that and, you know, and

hitting chips with a club leaning into your leg. Yeah. That's what I'm doing here. Right. What do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do Right. But exactly, probably the stuff you're not going to think is doing your own, right? Exactly. So just a little chipping guard, you know, just something up your sleeve, not keeping you

from break down, you know, just doing some drills. So drills and things where I can get better with practice. When I would practice, it was, all right, I'm going to go hit balls. Yeah. And there's the putting green. And I'm going to go hit some puts. And then I'm going to go play. Right. And it was like balls, a couple of putts, and then I hit balls. Yeah. And there's the putting green, and I'm gonna go hit some puts, and then I'm gonna go play.

Right, and it was like balls, couple puts, and then I go play, you know. It was never specific. Never specific. What are we trying to get better at, right? Exactly, so there was nothing specific, and that was, he gave me a plan, gave me drills to work on on my own,

drills we worked on together, and I had a path to get better. I was good enough to make the tour through a long trial and tribulations and the grind, but I wasn't good enough to contend when top 25s consistently, just cuts consistently. So that helped. And then seem like it paid off. Yeah, that's 2015.

2015, I think, would have been our first year full year together. I think we started working late in the fall of 14. And, um, like you had a good, you had a good fall in 14. And then, yeah, T7 and Honda, T4 at New Orleans. And then you made the, you made the barclay, there's made Deutsche Bank. Right. I mean, just you're like, wow.

And made over a million bucks. Where was this? Where was this? I mean, I didn't know I had, he was very good with the mind as well. And he's like, you're visually enhanced. You're really good. You know, always talk me up.

And you need that. You need that. Because you because then go off. You kill yourself so much. You're down on yourself. Down on yourself. Where is your home course? Is it down in Jupiter during this time? Some in Palm City. I played the Floridian right there and when did you make the transition over there from PJ Village there? When we moved to our current home, it was about nine years ago, eight years ago, started going out there more. And one of your kids born in this whole time frame, because that's that's always something that like people don't really think about. But that's that's additional pressure. Yeah. So my daughter was born the fall of 09 and then I won in January of 10. There you go.

You do the right. Well, so speaking of which, we're well over an hour into this pod, but let's get into the, uh, win it on the big tour. 2015 set the scene. Get off to pretty good start that year. Yeah, 15 was good. That was, that was really important because Wuffy always thinks about money and which easier agent we should. We should pay him a bearcat on the on the ref also Cincinnati. Yeah, say next. Yeah, say next. And so when I got

my card locked up for 16, he's like, well, good thing is you got your card locked up. Another good thing is you just qualify for the pension, assuming you play 15 events next year. Yeah. So that was huge. You know, going to be in my fifth year, fifth full year on the tour in 2016. And, you know, just little things. I didn't have a whole lot of money in that pension at the time, but it's just something. Yeah. You know, a nice accomplishment, you know, five years, gonna be five years, going in my fifth year on the tour. They weren't all great years, but five years still.

And I don't know what happened in the 16, you know, the results leading in don't really lead to decent, good fall. And then, yeah, a couple of missed cuts on the Florida swing, cut it, Honda, cut it, a Valsbar T63 at API. And then that must have been. And then you, it looks like you figured it out that week. You took a week off and then you went to Houston.

My wife told me, not doing anything crazy when I'm not ready to go to Augusta. She said that. I mean, literally said that when I left. You, you specifically remember her saying that before that specific event. Yep. It really hasn't ever said that before or she said that. So it's talking through the week. What, how did it, how do you remember it? What, what sticks out in your mind? Quite pretty solid. But even on, we had a Saturday finish on the nine hole on the, uh,

on the, um, the definition segment on Saturday. Second round. And you know how we are at, that's, at this point, winning is as far from in my head as possible. I'm thinking about making the cut. I had a difficult shot on the sixth hole. This is a golf club in Houston, golf club in Houston. Out of the rough, when was Halen in the evening or was up in the evening, it was nice

calm and we had some very calm conditions Saturday morning and made a couple of birdies coming in on seven and eight and got into it a good spot. I think it was pretty far into the lead. Now I'm top 10, but as golfers are, we always think worst case. All right. If I can just get in, I can make a couple bogies and still make the cut. So I mean, I could have easily bogied six, seven, and you know, been in tie for 50th. And of all your, your appearances, was that one of the first leads? Like you know, you kind of sniffed around a little bit.

You had solid tournaments, but not really. Yeah, Honda was good. I kind of, that was a 36 hole finish. So there was no sleep in between Saturday and Sunday. That was a Monday finish. And I think New Orleans might have been the same thing. That was a no repair. So maybe I'm good at those

repair. I've always kind of thought that like when they when you get to play more than 18 holes in a day, I was like man, that's the guy who had a hot hand. Yeah. So yeah, I was never really in in content, true contention having to sleep with the lead or be near it on going off in a late late Saturday, late Sunday, T-time. So that was nice to get into that mix. I played really well on Saturday. Made a great up and down. I was near the lead.

I knew I needed to make a par on 18. Obviously a hard hearthole. I made a really good up and down on 18 to stay in the final group. And play with Jamie Lovemark. I think that definitely helped me not having one of the heavy hitters of which there were many chasing. So who were some of those guys?

Hendrick Stenson was a group ahead, Dustin Johnson ahead of him, Jordan Speeth, Ricky Fowler, we're all right in the mix up there ahead of us. You know, there's going to be someone going low in the morning and that was happening. But it was nice just having that pairing where it was just us. I think at one point, there were four people watching on the fifth final round. The fourth group. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is again, why I think you're going to win the players this week, but that's. I mean, there was like nobody watching. They were all ahead of us. And they're like, oh, the leaders are behind it. It was like, it was on that par four or the par five fourth green there was nobody there they had all left and then we go back to the T on five and there was like nobody there and it was like we are in the final group Jamie's like yeah I think so

but are we really yeah so that was just that was nice. I made a terrible terrible swing on five, put it in the hazard. The hazard to the right. Obviously, the hazard on the left is the daunting hazard and didn't hit it there, but made a great, great bogey. And that really made about a eight footer for for Bogey. And that definitely helped. I think I was in the lead, stayed, you know, you never wanna make a double. I hit some good shots coming into the turn and around the turn and made a good birdie on 11, hardest holes before, you know,

the last couple, 11 is a difficult hole. And at that point, are you trying to hit fairways and greens and see what happens? You just hang on for dear life or are you going at it and say, hey, this is my shot. It's your shot, but you just want to, it still starts with that fairway. And all right, especially at that course, too. Yeah, I got to, I mean, I mean, when was your not in the hazard? You're pretty much in the fairway, you know, but there's something better.

You feel better about yourself when you do pipe at versus, all right, you have a good lie in the rough, you know, still feel better. What was the situation on 18T when you got there? Well, I chipped in on 16 to get the lead. Right. And that was, you know, you go back to the coaching and all the things that are gonna get me, get me my win, I didn't know, chipping, and it's like, all right.

That was a good decision, okay. All right, this is payback for those five years in a row, second stage. Make some good swings on 17, had to make about a five footer for par, make it, and all right, here we go, the last hole, you know, I got the lead, up I won, up I won, I took a stance in front of me, and he's still on the tee, I was the lead up. I won up. I won. Stenson's in front of me.

And he's still in the tee. I was like, oh crap. Oh gosh, you got like 15 minutes away. Yeah. So now we're just going to stand there and stand there and stand there. What do you talk about in a moment like that? You don't talk. Like the picture of trying a perfect game. Just kind of. Yeah, you're caddy. Matt was like, you know, just bring it up some little humor. Pretty windy. Yeah. Looking at the book, put it in a way. Going to the chapstick, looking at the wind. Trying not to make eye contact with the TV camera.

I mean, crossing your arms. Now what? You know, you think everyone's watching you. It's not even running, I'm sure. But you think it is. Yeah. Don't pick your nose. We're the groups building up throughout the like, like after you chipped in on 16. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, way. He hit his approach shot. They didn't go super crazy. We knew he hit the green. We

didn't tell if he had, you know, 10 feet or 20 feet, but we knew we needed a par at least. There was par was going to, you know, either get a playoff or win or win. No hesitation about driver. I love my driver. So we were going down with that if anything. What's here? Do you have a miss with the driver right or left? When I'm swinging well, I usually don't miss it left. Which is good for that. Good for that hole. Yeah, okay. So that I was swinging pretty well. I could just pipe it on 17. So I was aiming left to the bunker and I watched the replay and when you do watch the replay, it does look like the camera's kind of going low and left.

I'm sure if my friends were watching it, they're like, did he just hook it in the wall? But then it's just like lands and it's just rolling out the longest drive of the day. Did your wife fly in? She did not. So she's watching on TV too. So she's got all the neighbors.

Neighbors are in the in the house. Yeah. My I don't know which one. My son or daughter. There is my daughter. She's you know running around and can't sit still and her father-in-law's heir. He's in the office yelling at everybody. She's got a drink and a scotch and trying to will me into the finish line here. So I'm sure if we had her on, she'd tell a different story of what was going on there. But yeah, so she did not fly in. I told no agent, no nothing. Wolfie did not come and no need for anyone.

Let's get this done and we'll party next week. So I hit a perfect drive, Henrik Mist. I needed part of win, you know, you know, quote, and tin cup in the middle of the fairway with my first tour of that on the line and our wins it. Got my Romeo right there with me. And come on, Roy. So I hit a nine iron. He was, you know, like high one 70s were hitting nine iron. He's like, he's amped exactly. And we could not go long, you know, put high 170s were hitting nine iron. He's like a ham, ham, exactly.

And we could not go long, you know, put it in the front, front third of that green. And it almost got into the, into the proper portion, but it just trickled back. And then I just had two puts to win. And I mean, oh, man. What's the feeling? Is it, is it hands tingling? Is it, is it, yeah, you're just, you're just like, no legs or like, well, no, it's tingling? Is it? Yeah, you're just legs.

No legs, or like what? No, it's your arms. Yeah. Just gotta. I gripped in a little tighter. So nervous on that thing. And I was so glad it was, I think it was like two feet. You know, it was like, all right, I'm going to make this. I was very confident after I lagged it down there.

Yeah. You know, two feet can seem like 20 feet, but I was like, all right, I'm gonna make this. I was very confident after I lagged it down there. Yeah. You know, two feet can seem like 20 feet, but my caddy, Matt, he had helped me with a bunch of lines and, you know, it's hard to get too much information on a two footer, but you look good at it. I'm sure. You look at it.

I was like, no, I got it. Let's go. I'm gonna knock this in and there we go. Knocked it in and then it was party time. It's just straight to Augusta. Yeah, well, next morning, we declined the private charter. Didn't have, I just won over a million dollars, but I wasn't ready to spend like 50 grand before,

to go fly to Palm Beach, get my wife and kids, and then fly to Augusta. You know, well, you can do that, for this, for this could be like 50 grand or you know, you don't want to be like the poster child in that next ESPN 30 for 30 broke. Exactly. So I was like, I got on the phone like two hours later, my wife was like, well, don't you get in the car and drive up and help me to the air. Yeah. There you go. I remember Wolfie saying like he got a call from People to Gusta really before the final fight one right they called him when I was on 18 with the lead Just verifying the number and all that so all right

Thank you, Mr. Wolf will be in touch and then I put it out and then the call they called him right away Well, we were very happy to invite Jim to Gustin National next week. Would you like to accept for him? Yes, I would. So he had a long list of... And so and so is going to call you in the range transportation. Yeah, pretty cool. So and so is going to call you to range lodging.

And then he agreed to two houses, because he knew we were going to have quite the group come down from Ohio. So that was amazing. And then during the press Ohio so that was amazing and then during the press conference That was nice. I got a press conference for winning the week before yeah, I asked him if I could Withdrawal and they would invite me back next year gladly would take that just Just to be for a good backpack around Europe for a year. I will gladly come back next year. But that's probably a bad bet, you know, because you can qualify on your own. Yeah, sure.

Better than yourself. But at the less of the whole story here. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. You say you flew there and you flew to Atlanta on Monday. Wolfie met me in Atlanta and he drove over and he was so excited about the fact that we're driving to Augusta and he's in his car looking back at I'm sitting in the back seat in the front seat and he's looking

back at me the whole time and Matt's like I think I'm going to drive. I think I'd really like us to get to Augusta before you wreck this thing on I-20 whatever that is going from Atlanta. So he got in and then then Wuffy just kept going and going and going. And then two, so Tuesday, Tuesday, you played practice round. Yep. Tuesday before. I had been there. Wuffy and I had played there earlier in November prior.

And maybe there's a little foreshadowing, but we had a great time, invited guests. And we were in guests of a great member, and we had a great time, and obviously it's a little different in November than it is in April. Right. I was awake.

What did it, it was just a blur. Just a blur, yeah. A lot of interviews, and then on the range, and trying to get some work done, and getting praised from your peers that you don't even think know your name and you're like, wow, I just, I finally made it. Well, we're deep, deep deep into this podcast here.

We're pushing an hour and a half. So I don't want to keep you too long during the player's championship week. You're very nice to come over here. But what's the last question for me, trying to know what else you have? But what's the moral of the story here? Well, never to give up, obviously, and have some friends that have some money,

obviously to help you pay for a few things when you're trying to make it. But never give up. I mean, I didn't know where I thought my golf career was almost over in terms of really competing and contending. And last year I was coming off a medical, I had a couple of foot problems. And it was a long, long year. My medical was up playing John Deere and going to the bar

was all and just as a past champion. And I thought that was going to be my future, which was going to be fine. If you were to told me in 07, you just got through, right, when you got through Q school. All right, in 2020 or in 2019, you're going to, you know, you're going to have won one time on the tour, you know, played seven, eight years. Would you take that? Right. I mean, sign me up, I mean, 100%.

So, and then just to go to Barbazole and have the best week putting up my life, I drove it well, Iron Game was well, but I put it so well. 26 under, I don't know how that even happened. So, never to give up. I mean, and then you know, you got I'm in had a great year this year, but you know, you're never as bad as you think you might think you are. So did you feel validated in 2017 after you you know, it seemed like 2016

you won, but then you yeah, I had a really good you finished top 25 and all in three of the the FedEx couple of events and then 2017 you finished 91st like good year there. You felt like all right cool like this is for real. No, yeah, you do you win and then you're you know you do validate and then it's just the injuries after that were you know just was it a struggle and the brand new injury or was it something you know it was new it was new just problem. Toe issue and then just nagging a planner fascia that's still a problem. So, now, those years after were really nice to, to definitely validate for sure. Was the barbysol the hottest you've ever been with the player? Oh, and physical.

And hot. That was 200 degrees. Like, 98% humidity. That was brutal. Like, too. Yeah. You and Kelly Kraft, right? Yeah. Yeah. It looked like two. Yeah, you and Kelly Kraft in the flat. Yeah, it was, yeah, there was, I never put it like that. I mean, there's the whole look like a, it looks like a basketball. No, everything, there is a zone you get in.

Yeah. You know, you have to somehow tap into that. And I don't know how to do it all the time. And I guess if I could and I'm gonna start, I'm going to start looking out for you after you've missed six cuts in a row. That's it. And then six cuts and then play with Trump. Okay.

No, we're good. That's what I don't know. Who knows what's going to happen the rest of the players team, but what do you do? I don't know if things are going to get wiped out if you guys will finish the event, but we just hopefully got some good vibes going after, after recounting the tale here. Yep. So, so going back to Trump.

So, you win in 2016. He gets elected 2016. Uh-huh. White House after, you got a race going to your White House. He's been so good to me and my family. We were invited to the inauguration. We went 100% and later that year after the inauguration we were invited to the White House. What's that? That was surreal. I mean

Just waiting in the oval office and you can hear the president in the other room talking to them the vice president Where's my pro? Where's my pro? Is this really happening like so and then he comes out and then we're getting some photos and he's like, can you believe we're here? I was like, no, I cannot, sir. Yeah, but, you know, looking at it, have you played with him lately? Because you've missed three cuts in a row. I know, I play with him, seems like he's got a lot of shit going on right now.

Yeah, a little busy. I play with him at Christmas times. Okay. Count that my down. It's awesome. Yeah. It's within the last three months.

And yeah, you've three cuts in a row, but you're playing. I was playing for the whole day. Yeah. That's, um, Honda and, um, and Arnold Palmer, I miss both cuts by a shot, just some sloppy shots, but it was hard, you know, those greens were, were very firm and, um, what can was hard. You know, those greens were, were very firm and what can you do? You got to stay positive. Is it weird coming to sawgrass? This being easier than it is. It is. I haven't played here in March. So I've only played, I've only played the players in

May. Right. So this is a new new experience. So the practice rounds were definitely weird. It's more drivers. I mean, there's no irons off anything. I mean, even a whole like four, you know, I think I hit an iron there in the past, but that's crazy soft today. It's driver every hole. Yeah. What hole gives you the most problems out here? So guys guess. Just some reason number number six. I've bogied quite a quite a bit. And I feel like I hit I hit a perfect three with today and I hit a perfect wedge and it just came up. I guess one yard short and just spun off and green's gonna get it up and down. I feel like it's always that tree over. Yeah, yeah, it's just there's if yeah, it feels like a very small area fairway where you have a super comfortable shot. I think you got to hit five, yeah, there's if yeah, it feels like a very small area fairway where you have a super comfortable shot

I think you got to hit five six and seven those three par fours or you know that'll tell you which where your front nine is gonna be right and on the back I guess 14 and 15 those two are you know just in terms of par fours you know get away from you quickly. Yeah The last question I have you guys play a lot of recreational golf. Yeah. I do. Yeah, you did. So, talk me through that.

What's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your plan for that? How do you, I've been a big fan of golf. Obviously, and then Wolfies helped me, you know, open my eyes to, you know, I grew up in Cincinnati. We have a lot of great courses, you know, didn't grow to, you know, I grew up in Cincinnati. We have a lot of great courses, you know, didn't grow up playing Camargo, but now looking back, I'm like, man, I wish I could have been out there a little bit more. But, yeah, we like to do trips, so we like to go out.

I mean, he just got back from Australia. I mean, 22 rounds ago for maybe even more. He's in Chunky. That's crazy. I don't like to just check things off. I like to go be with the people people I can go with. I don't know why Wolfies in that group. Go trip to Sandhills this summer, I think, is the next one.

So my family, we stayed within Omaha during the Omaha tournament on the web in Cornfairy. They've got a connection to Sandhills. So we're going to go see them the week before John Deere. And my wife and kids are going to stay in Omaha with his wife. And we're going to go up to Sandhills for two days, I think. Sandhills seems like you're kind of tempo. I played there for the first time last year. It was fantastic.

Cowboy on the porch, flipping burgers. That's me. Yeah, so I've been very fortunate to play quite a few. What's your tops? I like playing Marion and Pine Valley. Just those two courses. When we go up in the summer, I can count on it every year. It seems like it's hard to, I mean, that's a bold statement, but it's like, I know enough people there. Now that I look forward to that, we spend the summer June and July in Philly, and I really look forward to going back there.

Although Marion did do their renovation, and I thought it was a little too green. Well, I've talked to DJ's good friend, Gil. Yeah, it was too green. It was too bleak. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. The fairways were perfect. The T's were perfect.

The bunkers were perfect. That's like, this is not, it doesn't feel like marrying. And then you go to Pine Valley and it's like, rusted. Scruffy. Yeah, snappy. So, just, I lied. That's, that's some of the best 36-houls you can play. I lied.

Last question. Skyline. What do you order? Oh, yeah. Well, small five away. And two cheese colonies. Okay. I'm a four-way and two cheese colonies.

So we're going to follow up. What do you like? The onions? I don't like the beans on it. It's just, there's enough going on with the, I mean, the pasta and the chili and the onions and the cheese. Small five, yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. Hermit, thank you, cheese. Small five. Yeah, awesome. Hermit, thank you, man. Good time. Yeah, thanks for doing it. It's gonna be the right club. Be the right club today. Yes. Be the club.

That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most.