No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 297: Hal Sutton

Episode Date: April 3, 2020

Be the right club, today! YES! Hal Sutton joins us to talk about how much the game has changed in the last twenty years, the 2000 Players Championship, how much he respects what Tiger Woods has done, the 2004 Ryder Cup, and a bunch more. We cover his amateur career, quickly becoming a winner on tour, what contributed to an almost decade long slump, and how he got it back. Thanks a ton to Hal for the time.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most! Another bonus episode here of the No Laying Podcast. I normally under normal circumstances, I hate doing a phone interview with somebody that I don't know. Of course, we are under extremely unique circumstances and got in touch with how Sutton, you know, I I liked to at least get to know guys before having an interview

But he was nice enough to spend an hour on the phone chatting about his career a lot of things and he brought the heat He brings a lot of really interesting perspective on how the game of golf has changed You know some of the decisions he made in 2004 writer cup. He takes you takes you all through Sawgrass, be the right club today, we do the whole thing. So a fantastic look, I love having some of the older guys on as I've, has been well documented on here. If you are looking to multitask while you do listen to how Sutton talk about, literally trademarking the phrase, be the right club today, our friends at Aussie Golf

want you know about too long garage. So this is the online putting putter configurator for too long's line of milled putters. You can choose from nine different heads. You got different finishes, stamping options and paint fill colors. I know there's a lot of you out there that are the junkies for all the customization and things like that. If you're not familiar with too long, it's the fastest growing milled putter brand on tour. It's in the bags of guys like Kevinna who if you could find me somebody who rolls it better than Kevinna. I am listening. He set a record for the most feet of putts ever made with his Too Lawn last year.

I believe that was that colonial at the Schwab. It's in the bags of Maverick McNeely for in Chescom, Mollinari and a ton of other. So inside the Too Lawn garage, you can pick a variety of different hostile styles, sight lines and soul plate weights to customize your flat stick. If you guys have never messed around with soul plate weights and the weighting of putters, I be careful doing it.

Once you open that door, there's no turning back, but once I learned about weight swing weights and all that stuff, I started to realize how much actually goes into your putter. And if you've been just gaming the same putter for a long period of time, I promised you, unless you got fit for it, I promised you it's wrong. I get just flat out wrong for you. So I suggest spending some time with these configuration tools.

If you're stuck inside and you're off the course, it is a fun creative outlet at minimum. So visit OdysseyGolf.com slash 2Long Garage. To start designing, that's two long T O U L O N go to OdysseyGolf.com slash two long garage to start designing your custom milled putter today. Let's get to house Sutton. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast thrilled to have continued success here during the quarantine period and tracking down some people that we've wanted to have long for a long time. And that that

gentleman today joining is none other than 1983 PGA champion and two time players championship winner mr. House Sutton. Thank you for joining. Thank for having me look forward to this kind of reflection. Yeah, well usually I'd like to start with background, but considering these strange times, I kind of want to hear more about what you've got currently going on in your life now and kind of this weird quarantine period, how you're passing your time. I don't really have much going on. I'm just hanging out, hitting a few golf balls, and we had a grand baby yesterday,

so that was exciting. It was our second grand baby, just live in life. Well, congratulations on that, but I got to admit, you know, I saw your tweet this week that you're looking at starting your own podcast. We don't need another competitor in this space. I don't know exactly where you're getting this idea from. Oh, you're not afraid of me.

I'm terrified of you. Are you kidding me? In many ways. Well, you know what I think? I think we need more opinions in the game you know i've only been playing this game for forty three years of i mean my opinions come from some experience anyway i would say so i would say they're well well grounded in uh... in a lot a lot of experience will get to but well let's go there then how did you you, where did you grow up and how did you get

into the game of golf and was it a love from the get-go or kind of take us to how you ended up kind of taking the tour by storm very early in your 20s? I grew up in Treeport, Louisiana. I was playing every other sport and a good friend of my dad gave him a set of golf clubs and said, you know, how's a good athlete? You oughta give him a set of golf clubs and you can play golf for life. And he can't play football and he can't play baseball and he can't play basketball for life.

So, you know, I took the clubs out and I started hitting a few balls and really enjoyed it. And when I had time, I'd go play and fell more in love with the game. And as I realized, I wasn't depending on more players on the football team or the baseball team or the basketball team, I was totally depending on what I did. That caused me to fall more in love with the game. By the time I was 17 years old, I quit all the other sports and just started playing golf, which I did think team sports teaches kids a lot of things. So I'm not opposed to people playing teams for thoroughly on them and waiting to devote all their time to golf later. I think that can be a still good thing.

On that note, what do people learn golf? What can golfers learn from team sports? I hear that said a lot, but what do you think are the takeaways that people get to take from a team sport to a highly individual sport like golf? Well, I think one of the things is how to get along with other people and team work is good, because they're still teamwork and even in golf golf even as a professional golfer. I'll give you some examples. There's teamwork between you and your caddy. No one went to talk and went not to talk. And there's also teamwork between you and your wife and you and your kids as you get up in years and you're playing the tour. I mean, you has a role to play. Even though you're the one that has to produce the results, there are people that are doing

things behind the scenes that can either add to what you're doing or take away from what you're doing. That's interesting. And how would you, I mean, across your career in golf, which spans many years, have you seen kind of shifts and how that has developed in the game golf, especially at the highest level? Well, yeah golf has changed dramatically. I mean, sometimes I wake up and think I don't even know what golf is today, but that's a whole mother of subject line right there, but I'm happy to dive into that. I'm curious as to what what you mean by that that you're not even sure what golf is these days

well there's no artistry in the game that much anymore you know it's uh there's shots out there that don't mean as much uh as they used to and there's people out there that are not learning the shots uh that are part of the game And we've got balls that don't spend clubs that won't get in the air. And you know everybody's trying to low span and high-law triangle and hit it as far as you can. And we hit a bunch of pulls and pushes, but we don't hit hooks and draws. I'm talking good players now. It's face driven, you know, past driven, face driven, and no one knows anything about hitting a shot. Let's say 150-yard shot into a 25 mile an hour went to a front fan over water, because the ball doesn't spin and doesn't let you.

So you want me to keep going, because I can say, you can't do a shot. Honestly, ten different shots that people don't know how to hit. You know, I just had a conversation with Fred Ridley the other day and I told him, I said, you know, if we'd make the ball spin more, that there's an arc. And we used it my or guy that could aim it down the left hand side of the fairway and cut it back into the center of the fairway. And I said, we respected him and we admired it. And it was exciting to watch a guy be able to do that,

to have that much command over his God's way. And I said, then on the other hand, it was also exciting when he did it and he didn't mean to, because then you got to see how he handled trouble by the curvature of the ball. I said, we don't have that anymore. And I said, you know, I'm not against 125 mile and our club has laid the ball going 350 yards. I said, let know, I'm not against 125 mile an hour. A club has to beat the ball going 350 yards.

I said, let's just make it curve. I said, let's put some excitement back into the game. And that's my theory. You know, I mean, I don't mind the ball being as going as far as it is. That's fine. I mean, it hurts the consumer for the ball to go that far. I can tell you that because the consumer has paid

the price for all of this. You know, they spent billions of dollars changing all of the golf courses around. They're the ones that spend the billions of dollars by a five and six hundred dollar drive with the pros. You know, they don't have to pay for any of this stuff. Yeah. The consumer pays for all that.

No, yeah, you're preaching to the choir on some of these issues. I'm curious, well, if you can share what you can share about what Mr. Ridley's reaction was to your points. He understood. He understood. He, you know, he called me about another thing and he was very nice to, we were reminiscing. He was my agent actually when I first went on the tour. Really? I never knew that. So yeah, so Fred and I go back a long, long ways and we were, he called me and just wanted to talk about old times really and we ended up talking about, you know, golf in general and you know, he's in one of the most powerful positions in my opinion of anybody in the game. Whatever Augusta does, everybody else follows suit. You know, that

carries a heavy weight and you know, I was telling him how proud I was of him. You know he chose the legal side you know he became a lawyer and then ended up working his way up in the USDA all the way up the president. Now chairman of Augusta I mean he did quite well he was US Amner camping a long time ago in 1975 I think and look where he's at today. On that note about the golf ball and technology, I was watching a little bit of the highlights from the 83 players coming down the stretch there.

Do you remember what you had to hit into 18? Well, I'd go with to the fairway on the right. And just trying to stay out of the water because I had to go under the trees. All I had to do was make bogie the wind. So I don't remember what I hit then. I really don't. I think it was three iron. And now these days these guys hit two iron wedge

into it if the wind is helping. The wind was hurting, but I think that kind of just speaks to the shots that you were saying that aren't really required anymore. You mentioned a couple of the, that you maybe had a few more. I do kind of want to nerd out some examples of shots. You feel like you had to learn how to execute under pressure

that guys these days don't necessarily have to. Okay, I will argue you another one real quick. When the ball spans a lot, you also have to worry about how far it's coming back. And you have to club up sometimes to try to keep the ball spinning backwards so far. You don't ever see that sort of thing anymore. And again, you know, grass has changed that a lot,

but so has the fact that the ball doesn't span anymore, too. So, you know, one of the biggest questions that I was ever asked when I was playing the tour was, how can I make the ball stand back? I mean they didn't ask me how I could curve it. They wanted everybody wanted to be able to make the ball stand back. You know ball and spin backwards anymore, hardly ever. And there's reasons for that. We've got different grooves in the club now. We've got different grass on the ground and we've got a different spin ratio while coming out of the ball. You know, I just, I would love to see the art side of the game come make a comeback.

Well, you know, your career, let me ask it this way actually. So somebody like Tiger Woods, do you think that all of the technology progressions in the game? Do you think that helped or hurt his career overall? Well, let me tell you what I mean, I know Tiger pretty well. He did business super-star no matter what the rules were, because he burned inside to be the best version of Tiger Woods that he could be, and he never lost sight of that. And I

mean I have the utmost respect for him because he never got distracted from the big picture of being the best Tiger Woods could be. That's really one of his biggest accomplishments in the game what I just said, above everything else that he's done year after year after year, Tigers would wanted to dominate. And that's hard to keep that sort of energy up and to fight the demands of being that kind of person, which he, you know, he did, but Tiger would have adjusted no matter what and he would have excelled no matter what. Yeah, I guess kind of where i was getting out with that is i

i felt like he was an artist you know and then the golf a lot of things change and i think it helped bring a lot of people closer to him and and if you know things hadn't changed so much he would have been able to separate himself even further well he is an artist but his paintbrush would have been different. Yeah. And he and the outcome would have looked different. He'd have been a different kind of player, but he's still been the best player. Yeah. Oh, I definitely think. What kind of stuff? Yeah. He definitely would have been the best no matter what. I just I'm curious. I just fascinated to think of, you know, what would have happened as far as if he was truly able to separate

himself more. I just feel like it's technology is a bunch people closer and together. But you, of course, we're jumping around here timeline-wise, but you had, of course, the famous duel at the 2,000 players with Tiger Woods. Can you kind of set the scene for us going into that day, especially? This is in the height of Tiger Mania, is your preparation for that final round any different or was your mindset any different going into that last round than normal rounds of golf? Well, obviously there was, you know, there was a lot more pressure

on me at that time because of trying to hold him off. Then there would have been if there would have been somebody else in his place. So I felt the way to the world because at the time, you know, people like Colin Montgomery were saying he was unbeatable all of us. And I felt like God needed someone to beat him, not because we didn't want him to win. It's because we wanted to prove that there were other good players that were capable of beating him. And you know, I was on the golf course that I knew

that even though he was more powerful than I was, it was a point A to point B to point C type of golf course. And I was hitting it as good as I've ever hit it in my life and I knew that I could do that just as well as he could. He'd be doing it with different clubs but we're still trying to hit it to the same place. So that was a place that I could beat him at. Let's say that. That makes sense. A quick break here in the action to remind you about our friends at herbal active. And before you hit that fast forward button, do not do it.

The hardest thing to find right now, hand sanitizer, hand sanitizing spray. Herbal active is currently offering that. Go right to the homepage. The first thing you're going to see at URBAL, ACTIV, is a hand sanitizing spray, hand and surface sanitizing spray. You can get a three pack for $15. Where else in the world can you order that online? I don't know where and that's not even what we're here to talk about.

That is a bonus for all the other things they offer. Please go to that website, herbalactive.com. Find out about their CBD products. We've talked about them for such a long period of time here, but I use them every morning and every night. I've been sleeping so much better ever since I put them in play. Three to four drops on the tongue, depending on badly. I need to sleep that night.

It's overall calming feeling and it's noticeable for me when I don't use it. I'll be up in the middle of the night and be like wondering why that happens. And it's because I didn't use my herbal active. So you can always use the promo code and I'll U20 for 20% off your order. And again, a three pack for $15 of hand and surface sanitizing spray. So please do check that out. NLU20 at herbalactive.com.

URBAL, ACTIV. Let's get back to our podcast with House Sutton. What, and I've heard you kind of say this in the past that you, did you feel slighted at all going into that last round or kind of some of the questions you were receiving the night before? Did it feel like people had kind of almost written you off even though you were leading wire to wire at that point? Yeah, it did. And, you know, I finally got angry. I mean, inside I was angry at, and I I finally said you know, I might have bought into all these things that y'all were talking about here except This morning when I was saying my prayers. I got up on my knees and I realized I would pray in the tiredness

I pray to God, so that makes tired with a man just like me so we'll go out there and mourn try to decide who who deserves this that was out of frustration that I said that. I was trying to put it in the perspective for them. And you know, we see sensationalism all the time now in the media. I mean, the more we can sensationalize things, the better off it is, the better the ratings are and everything else. And we see that every day, especially right now. And we were seeing the same. Well, I'm looking at those highlights too. I was kind of, I'm like, looking at it, I'm like, that every day, especially right now. And we were seeing a thing. Well, I'm looking at those highlights too. I was kind of, I'm like looking at it. I'm like, wow, there are not, these bleachers aren't full.

This is really bizarre. Why is that? And I didn't realize it was a Monday finish, was Sunday completely wiped out? Or did you play some Sunday and it bleed into Monday? How did that unfold? And did that change anything for you? Yeah, well, we played 12 12 holes or 11 and a half holes

and then the heavens opened up and it rained 3 and a half inches at night. So it was hard and fast up to that point. I had a 3 shot lead going into number 12 and he drove it in the rough and I drove it in the fairways and the heavens opened up. We went back out and he actually hit the green and three putt it. So I ended up having a Borscht lead going into 13. And of course it was a different golf course at that point. So because you know now I wouldn't get any other role in some of my distance with the pen and the role. You know he could carry it along with you. So it was my golf course

the day before and it turned into his golf course the next day. Did anything change for you with his eagle on 16? I mean I, I, I, watching that highlight, he went for the Tiger fist pump well before that ball went in the hole. Well, I mean I don't know how much you've read about it, but I've told it a thousand times I had planned on that happening. And you know, that was the one place that I knew there could be a pivotal point in the round because I knew I might not go for the green and two and I was certain that he would and what that brought in the play was I might make par and he might make evil. So I knew I had to get to 16 with 3 shot lead.

If I got to 16 with 3 shot lead, then he had to place it. Even if that happened, he had to play 17, 18, the same way I did. So if I was prepared for it, then I wouldn't be shocked by it. If I'm not prepared for it, and I hadn't thought about it, well then that would have been a long walk from the 16th grain to the 17th take. And so I started preparing myself for that on Sunday night. Going to hit that shot on 17 with a one shot lead over Tiger. Does having won the players and hit that shot under a different kind of pressure, you know, granted it was 17 years earlier, but you stuffed it on 17 on Sunday in 1983. Does that help at all as you're standing over that shot

where so many things could go wrong? You know, interesting I never had to tee on 17 all week in 2000 and Everybody that hit the ball in front of me it in the water and You know tiger hit the shot on 17 in front of me because he made eagle and Honestly, he didn't hit it all that good and it was right at the flag But it was very iffy as and it was right at the flag but it was very iffy as to whether it was gonna carry the water and it wasn't a soul there that didn't think it was iffy and it landed in about six inches of deep rough just over the pile and you know that was the first shot that I saw hit

front of me that didn't flagall. And my thoughts were never anything but hit it in the middle of the drain. Make him beat you, how? Don't beat yourself. And that was my whole motto starting on Sunday morning. I'm just going to play fairways in green, fairways in green, and I'm going to make him beat me. And I missed one fairway, and I missed one green in that round.

I missed the eighth green, left of the green. And I missed the 16th fairway when I drove it through the fairway. So, I mean, pretty much ball striking wise. I played that round the golf about as well as you could play it. And, you know, the best is yet to come coming on 18 and it's, you know, everyone knows it for, of course, your call coming up. But I got a shout out to different things that on the replay stuck out to me. One, we call this torso, basically.

It's kind of just any extracurricular activity after a shot or before a shot. After you hit that drive on 18, you barely washed it and you snagged that T coming out of the ground. Did you not? Yeah, I did. Because I, you know, every tour player, every really good player, you don't need to see the outcome to know that you had accomplished your goal. And when I hit that shot, you know, baseball square, I didn't need to get up and look at it. Tissue, I knew I'd hit it right down my line and I'd hit it right in the center of the base. So, you know, make sure to accomplish. And then after the shot,

and this is something we love to make fun of is that professional golfers and their caddies have absolutely no coordination between good high fives. And you and Freddie absolutely, perfectly executed, not one but two high fives as you're walking up to that green. Well, you know, my buddy Freddy was with me for 30 years, you know, and we faced time yesterday just to say hello and see how each other doing, you know, when you spend that kind of time together, you know this moment like that that you dream about being able to share together and you know Freddie deserves a lot I mean I one of the things that Freddie started doing when we

walked off the 17th Green what you didn't say anything about was he started telling me you got to drive it on this next whole lot a lot of times I hit three one on 18 and I would get a little bit longer Club into the green, you know, and he said, you know, you need to have the last shot. We do start with him He was too early and he said, you need that out of hitting because you need to be able to do what you need to do So you're the best driver of all you know you are how you got to hit the driver He was convincing me all the way over there Don't be afraid to hit the driver. He was convincing me all the way over there. Don't be afraid to hit that driver.

Hit it. Freddie deserves a lot of credit too because he, you know, that's the teamwork that I was talking to you about earlier and the timing of the teamwork and those sort of things are really, really important and that's why you see really great players when they get the caddy that they know is their partner they keep them for a long time yeah how did your guys you know relationship start and how in the world did you you know stick together for that long it's not something you see even back then or or in current pro golf that guys are with the same caddy for that long well Freddie watching me whenever I was a high school player in cherryport you know and then when I was playing in college he'd follow me he was a good player in Treyport he'd walk around and follow me and he used to tell

me said how one day you're gonna make the tour and he's not gonna get it for you when you do and you know you want somebody that cares that much you know and I was criticized early on because I took him out there and he didn't know any of the golf courses or anything else And you know a lot of the people said, you know, you need to hire a season caddy that can help you in this process And you know, I thought completely different than that. I needed someone that cared about me more than do something about the golf course I needed to have support so I didn't listen to what the vast majority. I guess I've never been someone that listened to the vast majority of what everybody thought. It doesn't seem

that way. Yeah. In everything I've read in the past, we'll kind of flipping back towards more towards the beginning of your career and your amateur career. Everyone has a point where they have decided or they've learned or realized that they are good enough to be a professional player, at least the people that become professional players. When was that for you? Was it always obvious and did you what was kind of your amateur career like in your transition like to being a pro? Well, you know, my senior year in college I was college player of the year. I won seven tournaments, my senior year in college. And then in tournaments my senior year in college and then I won the North South, the North East, the Western, the US Amateur, and the World Amateur all in the same time. So I guess after that summer I was pretty convinced I could make it over to it.

Thanks. Oh yeah. But my dad didn't want me to turn pro. My dad wanted me to remain an Amateur player in tournament, so I went to work for my dad didn't want me to turn pro. My dad wanted me to remain an amateur player, tournament citizen, amateur. So I went to work for my dad for six months and I played a couple of professional events. I made the cuts, but didn't play very well. And it was easy for me to see that my competition skills

were diminishing because I wasn't playing in enough competition and that I wasn't going to be able to play in enough competition to continue to progress my game. That's a beautiful part about college golf. You know, it's discipline. You're playing in a lot of golf tournaments. You're getting better and you're progressing and your skillsets are improving.

And you know, when you go to work and you're not playing in a golf tournament every day and you're dependent on your own desire to go work on your game instead of someone saying you need to go work on your game, then it's hard to continue to progress your skill sets. So I walked in one day and told my dad, I said, hey, I can't do this. I'm not going to do this, this is the disgrace to my game. You know, I tried to progress. It'd be as good a player as I can be. So the only way I feel I can do that is to turn pro,

which I did. And got my car the first time through and went on to be rookie of the year my first year and then player of the year my second year. And then the whole different follow-up started. I was living up to all of my expectations and but yet still people were pointing out all my flaws and things that I needed to improve on the these are best players in the world and all that sort of stuff and made me think about things that I never even dreamed I had to think about. And then I started seeing articles written that I didn't hit it high enough to ever win at Augusta. So stupid me, you know, I'm gonna change my game to meet what a guy puts an offensive on me. And you know, I understand what George Feet is going for right now because he went from having to please himself to, you know, he accelerated everything that he did so fast that

everybody's expectations, they didn't know where his ceiling was at, so they just kept pushing for as hard as they could. And all of a sudden, you know, you get to the point, here's what I did, I thought, well I can't please all these people, so I'll go buy some cut courses, start riding horses. Which is what I did. And pretty much left the game for about, you know, I played, that was the work part. I'd have been better off on the left. But I played, but had the excuse I'm doing other things. I don't want any more pay attention to it. And boy, did I get bad during that stretch? and boy did I get bad during that stretch. And, you know, that seems like it happened quick, you know,

I mean, from being player of the year in 83, you know, I've read some quotes just with you saying, like you kind of almost quit working on your game as of 84, is that sound right? No, no, no, not 84. Okay. I still won twice in 85, twice in 86. And, but by the time 87, 88, 89 came along, I still won twice in 85 twice in 86 and

But by the time 87 88 89 came along, I was like You know what I'm gonna do some other things and I didn't work as hard on my job game You know and when I got off that you said a working on my game I went to the farm and what happened to that you know you might quite a bit of money and you don't have to play You don't have to play. You don't have to work on your game. That's even more true in today's world than it was in those times. I mean, look at the money these guys are making now. Right.

I mean, these guys are catching lightning in a bottle. Some of them are catching lightning in a bottle and then they can, you know, a million, three to a million to two million. And one tournament. And one tournament doesn't make a career, but it might make you find answers. Yeah. So that's what I admired. That's good to get back to Tiger. That's his greatest accomplishment right there. He makes hundreds of millions of dollars and never lose a sight of the big picture of being the best version of Tiger

was as a golfer as he can be. That is greatest accomplishment. That's really interesting. What is your, I guess, I always curious to pick guys' brains on where they fall in the spectrum of love with the game. And a lot of people, a lot of pros can get a little burnt out on it and not necessarily love golf that much. At many different parts of their career can kind of ebb and flow. What is your I guess in this time period and even today kind of your relationship with love in the game? What kind of happiness that

golf has brought you in life? Well, I love the game. I don't know that I realize how much I love the game until after I've had a lot of physical problems over the last six or seven years. I've had three hit surges, one total reconstructive surgery and then ended up having to have it replaced and then I had another replacement. And then three months after I had that replaced, I had a heart attack and then just this last year I had my knee replaced, my left knee. So I was the right-hand

employer so the first problem I had was my left knee and then my left knee. So you know when you're driving hard into your left side and if you can't get to your left side then you're backing up through the shot and that'll make you hate the game. I can pay that right now. But I've kind of gotten my body back to where I can do some of the things that I used to be able to do. So I'm rekindling the love affair that I used to have with it. Just so I can hit some decent shots now. And they're not glancing blows.

Everybody back enough through the shot has got glancing blows going on. And that's never very gone. Well, you've done well in the early 80s. I'm always curious to us how money related towards real life then compared to it now. You mentioned just how much crazier it is now, but did you consider the money you earned early in your career? Was that a lot of money back then?

Looking at the conversion chart of inflation, it does seem that way lot of money back then and looking at you know the the uh... conversion chart of inflation it does seem that way but it did feel that way in the early eighties okay uh... i want the money listed uh... nineteen eighty three was four hundred fifty thousand dollars uh... i don't know that that would bridge i can tell you that i want the ppc in the pgaTA the TPC was the first six digits

Check that the tour ever paid was a hundred twenty six thousand dollars the PTA that year paid a hundred thousand dollars You'd win over four million dollars now if you won both those right and I won two hundred twenty six thousand dollars Now I'll tell you another piece of trivia. I won the first seven digits check that the two were paid to was 17 years later at PPC and it was a million eighty thousand when I beat tires So that's a piece of trivia the first six digits check I want it and the first seven digits check I want that's pretty sweet How much did it how much did it change your life? You know to to kind of get that money early on in the 80s?

Well, I don't know that it changed my life that much because I didn't have enough money that I could quit. I think that was the beauty of those days. You were forced into keeping things into perspective and keep the big picture in your mind. You know, by the time 86 had come along, I had one quite a bit of money and I had spent it all. So I was, you know, I could buy some horses and not go play golf if I didn't want to. You know, if you're hungry, you make sure you do everything right. And if you're not hungry, then it doesn't really matter whether you make sure you do everything right. And if you're not hungry, then it doesn't really matter

whether you make sure or not. And that's why I keep going back to that target was greatest of the count. He played his entire golf career like he was hungry all the time. Yes, he was probably worth being a dollar. So I still say you can sum up all of his great charts that he's hitting is like that, but his greatest become is waking up with the same desire all the time because I can tell you many men have tried to do that and they have not gotten that accomplished.

Yeah, I've honestly never really even thought of it that way because I just always felt, I think Tiger, I don't think he does it for anyone else, but I think he's also felt, whether he's felt it or not, he's had the burden, like this has been put on him to be like, hey, you're the savior, you gotta go do all this. And you know, we kinda take for granted that he's dedicated himself that much to it. It could have gone either way,

you know, he could have got pushed away by all that, but I never really thought of it that way that's really interesting what did you guys were teammates on the 99 rider cup team I guess what was your kind of experience with with Tiger like up to that point and what was what was it like be on that team with him you know I did a new Tiger from a distance you know I played a few rounds ago with it but I can't say that around the job with it, but I can't say that I knew him by any means. I think I was probably I think when Tiger first came out there and he had gotten so much media attention and everything else probably was a lot of jealousy out there, you know, and uncertainty and all sorts of things like that. And I think I'd be lying if I didn't tell you that we all felt

that to some degree. I tell you another time we felt that was when Audible was gonna play at Colonial. And the media attention that led up to that, you know, and if she really is good, is everybody says she is or how does my game stack up to her game. She's a woman and I'm a man, you know, there's anticipation for everybody and circumstances like that. You know, one of the first things I went on and played, you know what I mean, I'm thinking that anybody she beat, you're gonna see your name

in the paper, because they're going to tell everybody, that's exactly what happened after it was all said and done. Everybody she beat, they listed everybody. So there's times in support where you have moments like that where everybody is it's already playing the game doesn't know you know and they're not they don't want to tell you they don't know but they're anticipating. Mm-hmm. What was the on the anticipation note? What is the anticipation like going into 99 rider cup week? You know what is you know a pain into ninety nine rider cup week you know what is

You know pain steward had said I think a couple weeks before that the European team should have been cadding for them Some other bolts and board material was up there, but can you kind of put in a respect of how confident was that team going into Brookline? Well, we were very confident, but if you recall that was also the team that they've been a lot of talk but if you recall, that was also the team that they've been a lot of talk that some of the guys on the team were talking about how much we should be paid to even go play. Yeah, take us to that. There was a lot of controversy going into that. Not every player on the team felt the same way that some of the other players did. Some of the guys hit behind and got some of the younger guys to fight their cause for them. And I'm not going to go into names that didn't make any difference anymore. But there was just a lot of outside noise going into that week.

And pain making the statement that he made, you know, but the media said virtually the same thing. So how the American team was was a much better team than the European team. They say that all the time and yet we don't win. Most of the time. On the pay for play stuff, I want to kind of, you know, in the more conversations I have about the more I think about it, the more I'm like, gosh, it's kind of ridiculous that the players, you know, the PJ of America, the European tour makes so much money off the Ryder Cup and players don't get paid. But what do you remember about that time, kind of the conversations that players, you know, the PJ of America, the European tour, makes so much money off the Ryder Cup. And players don't get paid.

But what do you remember about that time, kind of the conversations that were happening and how it ended up bubbling over to that year? I can't recall exactly why I bubbled up into that year. But let me tell you my theory about getting paid. I mean, they do give the players money to give to charities. I don't know what the amount is anymore, but that particular year was $200,000. Every player got $200,000 to give to the charities of their choices. And in my opinion, I was taught by a PGA professional early on in my life.

His name was Ed Peck. He was a little guy to nine-hole golf course that just went to work every day and battled with the country club golf. That's really what he did. So I felt like whenever I finally made a rider cup team, that was actually playing for him. And you know the PGA of America represents all of those guys, all 28,000 people up there. So I didn't have any hard feelings because I played for a week in the greatest event in the game. I was actually good enough to play in the greatest event in the game. Ask to do it. Oh, by the way, you're just going to give me $200,000 to give the charity. You're going gonna get me $50,000 worth of clothes and we're gonna go to all these great

parties they're not really parties they're really dinners of recognition and I'm gonna get a stage to showcase my talent to the rest of the world in the most fierce competition that we know when the game will go oh really I'm upset about being able to do that. I just see I'm not on that page. And by the way, everybody that does really well in those events, they did quite well after

the fact in other areas like endorsements and other things. So you get paid is just indirectly. Yeah, that all makes sense to me. I think that if I remember right, the charitable element came from that year. That was the year that started basically because of some of the noise that was drum up. Does that sound right?

That's exactly right. It was really unfortunate. And I think the best part about it all is there was some distinction among some of the players on that team that others were thinking that it should be that way getting paid and others didn't feel that way at all. So there was almost like two different teams on that team. And to be able to come together, we all came together on that Saturday night, and you could tell that everybody was on the same page when we left the right of that night.

So finally, on Saturday night, the team that we were all hopeful were going to get there at the beginning of the week actually got there. Maybe the most important question I can ask about the 99 rider cup is when did you guys become aware of What shirts you would be wearing on that Sunday? We knew it at the beginning of the week What was the conversation like? Where everybody that didn't expect to be paid that week they understood that that was every winning Rider cup tank picture on that shirt

So the meaning of the shirt meant more than the looks of the shirt Didn't bother me at all They're great to look back at and laugh about Let me tell you this they've made a lot of money in charity You know every one of us probably gave that to a charity and they auctioned it all for someone and it all brought big money Everybody so you know y'all laugh about them and everything else But we remember that shirt. Yeah, tell me what tell me what shirt the last the rider cup Same was wearing in Louisville the last day. Can you remember it? No, not a chance. No, you can't no one

No, so You know, I can give you the case on the other side. Why that not a chance. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you but it's instantly recognizable. So what going into that Sunday, obviously Ben Crenshaw has the press conference quote, he says, I've got a good feeling about this. Did that truly represent kind of how that room felt going into Sunday down four points? Yeah, it did. I mean, everybody on Saturday night, when we all left the meeting that we had,

I mean, I think everybody in the room felt like we had a really good chance. We stacked it. Everybody that was playing well was out in the first six matches and we felt like we could get us back to even if not ahead, which we did. We got ahead. We won the first six matches going out. And I want them all big too, but that was the most electric day that I've ever seen ever in golf in my career. I mean, I have never heard crowds like I heard that day. And I look back, and I'm sure everybody that was on that team will look back and say, never heard anything like that. Yeah, I mean, I've never seen anything like it. I'm hearing just hearing guys talk about it. It's the most excited they get to talk about it.

But how did you end up going out second? Is that something you asked for? I mean, you were obviously playing well going into that Sunday. You know, how did you end up at the top of the lineup? Ben said he wanted to put Tom and I out first. We were both playing really well. We were both older on the team. I think he thought we were on solid footing, so to speak.

I'll never forget Tom and I were getting stressed before we went out. And I had played every match. I played all four matches to that point. I won't ever forget how stiff I was while they were trying to stretch me out. And I said, man, I hope I can were trying to stretch me out. And I said, man, I hope I can take some house,

stretch me out enough that I can get a complete back towing right now. But it was, that was a long week. Well, what was the, after that amazing comeback in that crazy atmosphere, what was the celebration like that, that Sunday night? Well, we were up all night long, you know, just talking and reminiscing. Of course, you know, just talking and reminiscing.

Of course, you know, that was really the last night that I was ever with pain. You know, he was killed in the in the plane crash about 30 days later. And what I really remember about that night is sitting and talking to pain. And I can't really recall a whole lot more about it, you know. I guess it's because I kept going over my mind the last time that I had spent with pain. It kind of forgot about all the writer's cup celebration. Kind of everything that happened after, you know, that Sunday of 99, it seemed like the Europeans didn't take it very well with all the things that happened either for better deservedly or so.

And it felt like that even bled over all the way into your cap and see in 2004 the general consensus from the European team was to how the US had treated the Ryder Cup. I guess coming back to US soil in 04, I don't know if they were fearing kind of something similar happening, but it seemed like there was fireworks and that was kind of brewing that week or in the weeks leading up to Oakland Hills in 04 that you were captain of.

Is that sound right? Listen, I was on four Ryder Cup teams. Should have been on five. I really made the team in 83 and I wasn't a class A pro so I couldn't play and they changed the rules. So John, they would benefit it from the fact that I had done that before. The truth of the matter is there's always controversy leading into the Ryder Cup and the pressure that the every player feels is, you know, the Ryder Cup is the biggest event

in God. I guess there's always been controversy, you know the right or cup is the biggest of that and God. I guess there's always been controversy you know and anything that's not even meant to be made out to be controversial ends up being controversial in many ways. Going to O4 and I promise I'm not going to wear everyone defaults with O4 because I think everyone does just go straight to the Tiger Phil thing, but that team lost by 9. So I don't think that that is pairing necessarily costs the US the Ryder Cup. And looking at that time period in Ryder Cup history that the following, you know, two years later in 06, they also, the team also lost by a huge margin. So I want to know going into that week, did you feel like there was a big talent gap or an issue like within your team?

Did you feel like you guys maybe were potentially in trouble even before the week began? I did. Yes, I did, but you don't say that, but you don't. Right. I mean, you want everybody to stay positive, you know, but we weren't playing very well at that time. We had a lot of great guys on the team. Everybody tried hard, you know. Everybody criticized the fact that I put Tiger and Field together and I was trying to help the game agon, as much as anything else, you know. And I guess I was way ahead of my time because then they played everybody $10 million

to do it after the fight. So if they had done well together and became really friends, y'all won, man. Because what was the relationship at that point? I don't think it was that good. I think, honestly, I think, I mean, I think I could say this in this not big controversial. I think Phil was jealous, Tiger, and wanted to prove

that he was a better player. I don't think Phil had anything going to Tiger was jealous of. And I think, you you know I was hoping that they became friendly with one another you know they're both magnificent player two leading money winners of all time aren't they? And different style play I would say that Tiger's a little more calculated I would say he's a calculated gunswinger and I would say feel is just a gun swinger. That sounds about right yeah. So I knew these people a lot better than anybody else did make it the same basically. And I made the decision and I thought was best for the team and best for

God and didn't work out and they got beat on the 17th hole. The first didn't go away from it because Montgomery and Pogger Carrington made like 10 birdies in the first 17 holes against them. Okay, well you ran into a buzz ball. That's not gonna happen two times in the road. So I didn't go away from it. And I dealt with things that week.

I never dreamed I was gonna have to deal deal with that's just the router come for you Like what what are some examples of things you didn't couldn't dream you would have to deal with We won't go in all that That's for part two Yeah, just just looking at it We'll never hear that part No No, no, we'll never hear that part

Maybe offline this is the part where I rushed to finish the recording so you can tell me off the secrets offline. But yeah, looking back at it, I think people remember it differently. I mean, they lost the opening match two and one like you said on the 17th and then lost one up to Darren Clark and Lee Westwood in the afternoon. It was just overall the team was down six and a half, one and a half. I just, you know, I love looking at those 0 4 and 0 6 teams and seeing, you know, I know offense to any of the players on there, but just thinking like, wow, that was a very,

very different time in American golf history. And it seems like the depth for the American players is so much deeper now, yet we still haven't seen the tides turn in the Ryder Cup. I'm just, as somebody that's been around this event for so many years and decades Kind of what what is all your experience tell you about why Europe has just had so much more success over the last 30 years or so hunger Last week in September whenever it is The Americans have played all year long and their pockets are full, especially the 12 guys that are on that team Squad my Tiger so much,

because he's never allows the big picture to be forgotten. You know, all those Tiger's record is not all that great in the router cup, not compared to the kind of player he is. Which, you know, I just don't think that we go in there. We were hungry in 99 last round because we've gotten embarrassed so bad and everybody had said we were so good. So that made us hungry because otherwise we were going to be the biggest discipline, but ever in the history of the game. Yeah, to beat that bad. And you know, sometimes you're hungry because you make yourself that way and that's your make up. The vibe I get from a lot of past captains is it's very mixed on what they're overall

experience as a captain whether they recommend it whether it was worth it. What can you speak up to that in your mind? I know you kind of you know I guess describe your relationship with the game of golf shortly in the years after your captaincy as well I quit Completely 46 years old. I was fully old but all the way till I went to the championship or not completely quit the game after that point I did not play 20 rounds a golf in five years after that and why is that? in five years after that. And why is that?

Because I was so disappointed in the effort that I put into it and how I was the escape joke for everybody. I was the fault. And I never hit a shot. And I did everything. I brought Jackie Berkin there who was certainly not current in the game.

And I brought him in because I thought he was the most knowledgeable person in the game left and I wanted the rest of the players to know him. I brought Steve Jones into it as my assistant captain who was not current either because he'd had elbow problems but he won the US open that oak on the earth. You know I'd done a lot of things leading up to that that I thought were recognizing people in the game and of the game and far the game. I was hurt. I was bitter after that. My dad begged me not to do it. He said, how you're still a good player. You've got no business doing it. And I didn't

listen to him. And I said, how many people would ever turn their back if asked to be a captain of the writer captain. That's what I played for my whole life. But I was bitter. So I would fit into the category of if they asked me again, um, if I had the knowledge I have now, probably wouldn't do it. If I were to describe it in from a Namibu perspective and outside perspective, it seems like it is both an honor and a burden. Is that sound fair? That would be an absolute fair state because you give up, you sacrifice your own

game for that. Yeah, that's why I find it so, you know, Tiger decided to do it for the president's cup as a playing, you know, end up becoming a playing captain. But the people that, how do you decide when you're transitioning to captain's role is a game that you're going to play a playing captain, but the people that, how do you decide when you're transitioning to captain's role is a game that you're going to play forever. And you know, it's, it's it's so weird to be kind of seeing guys try to balance. Like, I know Jack Nicholas was captain of the 83 team and he went out and won the Masters two and a half years after that. Like he wasn't, he was far from done playing. It just seems like a very stressful

thing to add to a playing career. Golf playing career is supposed to last almost forever. It's a very stressful thing to variable to throw in the mix. Yes, it is. Some people are ready for it and can manage it. And others can't. What they've ended up doing is they've ended up having

more assistant captains because that takes a lot of the duties all post the captain and I think that was a great idea because There's just a lot going on. It's a big moving target and you know, it's big event biggest event the biggest What what? 100 people in the media center. There's no other event in the world That's a 1500 people in the media center. Yeah, not even a football. They all need something to write about. And the easiest things to write about

are the decisions they get made and not necessarily the play of the players. That's sound right? That's exactly right. Yeah. What if you had advice for future U.S. captains, what would your advice be? who asked captains, what would your advice be? I have no idea what I'm going to tell you. To be honest with you, the outcome won't necessarily be good or bad because of the decision you make. That's what I'll say. And you better be prepared for that. So you can't outsmart the fact.

Yeah, that's what I've always said. It's as captain, you've gotta press a lot of buttons and you've no idea what the outcome of those buttons is gonna be, it can be kind of random as to what works and what doesn't and you're gonna get judged on how the success of those buttons you pushed. And it's both art and science and I don't even know what part of the equation each

part of those plays. It's just a complete, complete nightmare if you ask me. Well, and honestly that may be the reason why the event is so big. Yeah. It could be the reason why the event is so big. And you know, there's just so much mystery to it. And you know, it's not choosing the best player. It's choosing the best marriage in terms of two players playing together. Who can get along the best and who can compliment each other the best. That's not always obvious.

Yeah. Before we let you go here, I'm sure you're asked about be the right club today on a near daily basis. But I'm curious, did you ever try to trademark it? Did you ever try to own that phrase? It goes with you so well. I'm just curious if you had any official relationship with the phrase. Yeah, I did trademark it.

You know, I never figured out what to do with it. You know, a long time ago, the head guy from NBC Sports asked me if I'd ever done anything with it. And I said, I don't know what you mean by this. I said, well, you know, Pat, where I was sold three P to the NBA for a bunch of money. And I said, so what you want me to do, so coffee mug with our barbecue sauce, with, you know, be the right club today. T-shirts, I don't really know. You know, I've never really figured out what to do with it.

And, you know, in my mind, as I've gone on, it was something that it was just a moment of passion that I used. I mean, I had never said it before in my life. It's really the truth is, the ball was in the air, and I just didn't want to be tricked. I knew I'd hit it just right, and it was going to go to the distance and it was right at the flag. So just don't trick me.

That's what I'm really saying. And after the fact, I thought, you know, everybody owns that. To some degree, it was just a moment will all remember. And I especially remember, so was Freddie. We lived it. And I was as close to it as anybody, because I did it. I was an extremely impressionable 13 year old

during that time period. And I can't tell you how many times we went out and yelled at whenever, it's everyone only uses it on this exact shot, which is a shot that you hit well, and it's perfectly online and you just start thinking, I hope I guess the right yardage and everyone still uses it on this exact shot, which is a shot that you hit well, and it's perfectly online, and you just start thinking, I hope I guess the right yardage, and everyone still uses it, and I absolutely love it. It's great.

So, we're going to let you go. I appreciate you spending an hour with us telling stories, and your perspective is greatly appreciated. So, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and I hope to do it again sometime. And let me know if you have any questions about starting your own. We'll happy to give you all the advice you need All right, I've breached it all right. Take care. Thanks. Cheers That's better than most

That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most.