No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 30: Shane Ryan on Rickie Fowler

Episode Date: February 9, 2016

New York Times best selling author Shane Ryan joined me to settle our nasty feud on Rickie Fowler’s club choice on the 17th hole at TPC Scottsdale on Sunday. We talked a lot about Rickie... The post NLU Podcast, Episode 30: Shane Ryan on Rickie Fowler appeared first on No Laying Up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. That is better than most. That is better than most! Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang Up Podcast. I have a special guest on the show today. You can find him at tobaccoroadblueis.com, golf.digest.com, pacedmagazine.com, and as well as a New York Times bestselling author of the book,

Slaying the Tiger Inside the Ropes. I don't have the title in front of me. A year on the PGA Tour, something like that. You've all read the book, Mr. Shane Ryan, Shane, what's going on? I am good Chris, it's so good to be back on the No-Langout podcast, thank you. It's been about a year, I think the last time you were on, we were the Patrick Reed story that you broke. I think around March last year year if I remember that right? I believe if I'm not mistaken, let's see. I was I think I was in Chambers Bay. Yes I was in Seattle and you had me on after the book came out too. Oh, I thought oh, okay. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense actually

Unless you never published that podcast It was purely just you giving off your bag. There is a chance of that But you have your own podcast now called The Friends of Tiger Podcast. And for all of our loyal listeners, I would strongly, strongly suggest that I don't think I've missed a single episode of it. And I strongly, I definitely enjoy it. You've been a hard, not a hard to reach guy, but I've heard all of your takes. So it's hard to get you on a podcast and really debate anything with you when I've heard what you had to say. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, I think we've got something today, though, right? I think we do. I think we do. It's so rare. I mean, I think there's been cases of it before, but for those of us who are sort of friendly with each other, it's very rare that we disagree on much. I'm looking forward to this. Yeah, it's nice to, I feel like I'm always having people on and we're always agreeing

with each other. It doesn't make for a very good discussion. So I hope I think this will be a good discussion. The topic at hand is what happened this past weekend. We're recording this on Tuesday, February 9th. This was two days after the Waste Management Phoenix Open. We're Ricky Fowler.

Had a two-shot lead going into the 71st hole, proceeded to take driver off that tee, hit the ball in the water, make bogey, and end up losing in a playoff to Hedeki Matsuyama. I did listen to your aforementioned podcast where you talked about this with Alex Myers, and I would again highly suggest people listening to that. I thought it was a very good discussion, fair discussion, fair points. I think there can still there can be two sides to this. I wrote a piece for SBNation.com that you referenced that I strongly defended his club choice as an understandable decision in the heat of the battle and considering all the factors from from within within the

grounds within the ropes that are going on between a player's head and their conversation with the caddy and all their considerations I Didn't fault him for it. You had a differing opinion on that though I did yeah, and let me say first after watching you know a lot of presidential debates I just want to take the high ground here and say Chris I respect you I think you're good for the game and I just happen to think you're dead wrong on this one I think you're good for the game and I just happen to think you're dead wrong on this one But it doesn't affect what I think if you as a person or as a friend and I just wanted to congratulate you on all the success you've had No, all right. Let's get at it. Let's do it too nice

But look, but look I do think you're wrong Now, you know, I think it comes down to a few things. I think if you're going to make the argument that, OK, he's in the heat of the battle and he's striping his driver, and he's hitting it really well. And your argument is that maybe the best thing mentally is not to consider the position you're in in terms of the larger tournament and just to play as you would any other time. And so that kind of keeps you in a mental head space,

not letting the pressure or the situation get to you. OK, then fine. You can argue, yeah letting the pressure or the situation get to you. Okay, then fine, you can argue, yeah, play driver there if that's what you'd normally play. However, I am of the mindset that in that situation, it actually benefits you to consider where you are, to have a sense of what your lead is and who's chasing you. And I think when you're up two shots with two holes to play, what you want to do there, in my opinion, is avoid the huge mistake.

And I think the only two clubs that could have ended in the water are the three wood and the driver. And, you know, we talked about he got unlucky, he hit a good driver's shy, but if he had pulled that left, it would have been wet the whole way. And obviously, as we saw it, when he hits it straight, there's also a chance that it goes into the water. I think, you know, you pointed out, I believe, in your article that the dechimatsu yama made two birdies, and so technically Ricky Fowler needed to play one under over the last two holes to win that tournament outright without going into a playoff. But I think the pressure you put on your opponent when you have a lead and make them chase

you actually probably would have produced a different outcome there or at least would have added a certain amount of psychological pressure to Matsuyama. So my position is he should have taken the iron off the tee, which I still think gives him a pretty good chance for par because it's not a long, sorry for birdie, because it's not a long hole. And you know, barring some kind of disaster off the tee with the iron, par is the worst score he's going to make. And what he does there is he guarantees himself

at least a one shot lead going into 18, and I think that advantage is huge. I think what we see a lot of times with the great players is when they get a lead, and of course Tiger Woods is famous for this, they make people chase them. They don't do the stupid thing that ends up bringing them back to the field.

All fair, I can't really specifically argue with, the case can obviously be made. I mean, look, the choice he made ended up not working out for him. So I think it's very easy to look back at what happened and say that he played it wrong. I try to make the point in it. And I did not disagree with what you said to Alex about the hindsight. I don't think you need hindsight to have your take.

I agree with you on that. I'm fine with that. You can flat out say, I thought before he hit it, he should have hit iron off the tee. And I will say, I talked to two tour pros about this exact moment. One agreed with me, and another one said he was screaming at the TV when he pulled driver. So it is kind of a pulled driver. So it's kind of a dividing issue and it's not like I think I'm dead right and you're dead wrong on it. But to me, it probably didn't even seriously cross his mind to even hit Iron Off that

T for better or for worse. I think I just think the way that hole is played, no one really plays it that way. And the point I was making about hitting iron is, if you hit an iron off that tee, the first of all, the fairway is only 22 yards wide in between those two bunkers. I think he hits it in between those. I'm not arguing that, but you are bringing in the risk that you could hit, pull an iron or push an iron

into those bunkers, and you're hitting a full shot at that point, to a green that's still surrounded by water. Yes, he could have played to the middle of the green, easily made his par. My overall, I guess, a point that I don't think I emphasized enough and I wrote like a thousand words on it and I was talking to poor Ath about when I was writing it. He's like, yeah, probably 500 words is good. I wrote a thousand. It was probably too much, but I kept having these all these points I wanted to make and one I don't think I made enough was a two shot lead with two holes to play. It's not that big of a lead, especially when you look at the two holes that were remaining. And I don't want to point to the two birdies that Matsuyama made because I kind of goes against my hindsight argument, but he had to

know that was a possibility that he was going to get run down if he just starts playing for par. And when you start limiting yourself to just playing for par, you're taking the control out of your own hands, which he thought he was capable of doing and he executed. He executed the shot, got the bad break. And I just don't think you can legitimately think that 360, that that yardage comes into play to get in the water. I agree that taking three-wood or driver there obviously brings the water in the left into play But you can't the risk of him hitting it

There's a eleven yard gap in between that back bunker and the water on the left that that that was the the risk He was running by hitting driver that we go in that eleven yard gap and go into the water If it goes any further right it goes in that bunker if it goes right to the bunker There's more rough over there and I think Grandstands even to stop it. So I think the chance that that ball would ricochet and go down through that little shoot that it did is so small that he couldn't have even really pictured that as an option happening. Well, first of all, let me say that you wrote too many words. As you know, I'm someone

who likes to keep things very short. I don't believe in length, right? No, your article is great. I really enjoyed reading. You've got a great style, even when you're really missing the mark in this history article. No, you know, again, here's the thing. You say that, but I think it's on the golfer and it's caddy to understand that this could be a possibility.

And you say, you know, right There's only a maybe a small chance that he hits this down slope in the ball rolls into the water However, there's a big chance that you pull the driver and it goes into a water There's just several outcomes that are really really bad and Your point I think is a good one in that There's always that that area as a Duke basketball fan I've seen so many I feel, I've seen so many, I feel like I've seen so many games where Duke

gets a big lead, and then Coach K has this impulse always to go into a stall offense. And if you do that too early, which I've seen happen, it really takes you out of your game, and it lets the other team come back, and it has a way of shifting the momentum. So I agree with you that there are times, you have to know the situation.

But I think too up with too to play, I think you your past that point where it's too early to play defensive i think i'm a difficult a strange little whole like number like number seventeen you need to say okay what is the bigger risk here yes you can go in the bunker uh... but that's not that you know i mean unless you plug or something really really unfortunate happens that's not death you still easily get to the green from there because it's not a long hole

uh... playing the approach that that's not death. You still easily get to the green from there, right? Because it's not a long hole. Playing the approach shot, that's not an argument that convinces me because a hundred-yard wedge shot went through in the fairways you know for these guys and for the way Ricky Fowler was playing, that's almost automatic. So for me, it's like before the water, it's really that simple. Don't do anything that's going to lead to a situation where you are tied or worse going into the 18th hole and lead to a situation where you are tied or worse going into the 18th hole. And par has to be the worst score you're going to make there. And then on 18 it forces your opponent to play an incredible hole and really to force the action, whereas the fact that they went in tied didn't do that. So, you know, the essence of my argument to boil it down is, don't leave yourself up to the big mistake. I really think you made a mistake doing that. I think you pointed out that there's a lot of decisions to make

and it's the heat of the battle and everything like that, but I think I go back to last year, sorry, 2014 at D'Areal, Patrick Reed had a two shot lead going into the final hole and it's another very difficult hole and he just played an iron and basically he played for bogey and he didn't even want to turn him in. I think guys who are really concerned with winning and who are good at winning sort of do take that more cautious mindset at the right time. But I think what you just said though almost helps my point and that read knew exactly what he needed to do to win right so he knew he needed five.

There were no other players if I remember right left on the course to have to account for so can I come let me ask you this 17th the same situation 17th C up by one playing with Matsuyama what club does he pull only a one shot lead instead of two what should he do that's interesting it was a different situation isn't it because you don't have that comfortable cushion where you can make pars and probably win or force the guy to make two birdies and beat you. So up by one, I still say you probably play to win there. And you probably take whatever, you know, you drive or three-butter, whatever he feels as best at that moment. Okay. So another thing that factored into my analysis that I didn't, I didn't directly quote him or even refer to this in the post because

I can't personally attest to it, but I was texting and exchanging messages with Shane Bacon before I wrote it. And he said, it's like am I crazy to think that Iron wasn't even considered there. And he said, he told me, he's like, I've played the course 30 times and he said, and this may be hyperbole, but he said, 17 is the toughest layup in golf off the tee. I don't know why, but in the back of my head I'm thinking, okay, this is a guy that's played the course. Ricky's obviously got it's played the course. It probably like wasn't even a consideration for him, whether or not that's at fault of his is, I guess it can be debated, but I'm just of the belief that a two shot lead isn't, it's not a three shot lead with one hold-up play. It's not like a van devout. It's not like Kyle Stanley at Torrey Pines in 2012. I'm breaking my own heart, bringing this back up. But he was, for those aren't familiar with it,

it was four years ago when he had a three shot lead on the 18th hole at Torrey Pines. And he had maybe 250 in with his, for his second shot, it's a par five over water. And he laid it up in front of the water. And then proceeded to hit his third, which was rather second shot, it's a par-five over water and he laid it up in front of the water and then proceeded to hit his third, which is rather routine shot, over-spotted into the water, made triple bogey and lost the tournament. So, honestly, I think the same, maybe exaggerating a little bit, but he runs the same risk of hitting wedge from the middle of the fairway and it hitting the pin

and going in the water as it did hitting that downslope and running 80 plus yards running into the water. I think it was just such a fluke event that if the opposite happened if he laid it up and then made bogey from that he'd be getting killed and if he laid it up made par and Mount Motsyama ran him down with two birdies I think he'd also be getting killed for it so I think that he was very confident he could pull off the shot he eased up on the driver it made it come out lower and it had this bounce that he could not have foreseen. But I think that he knew what he needed to do and the fairway is 50 yards wide at that point. I think he knew he wasn't going to miss left, he had room right and it just

happened to hit a perfect shot, it was way too good. I think let's forget the downslope for a second. I think the chances of when you take out driver on the tee, the chances of ending up in the water are far, far higher than they would be from a wedge shot, from a hundred yards hitting the pin and hitting the hole and carining into the water. Correct. Yes. So to clarify, I'm running all the way through in that 11 yard gap behind the water. But that's not the only risk that I'm saying is that's not the only risk of the driver.

However, I do agree with you. I don't think you should kill Ricky Fowler of this. It's not like a huge choker or anything. It's, you know, it was still a tight-ish tournament. He should have won, and I do think you made a mistake, but again, it's not like Van Develle. If anything, I think maybe this is the kind of thing. You know, when I talked to a lot of tour players in 2014, a lot of them had moments like this where, especially the guys

that are good winners, in situations of pressure, they tend to become more aggressive because they don't want to play tentative and they don't want to lose by being cautious. Like, maybe they've seen some guys do over the course of having watch golf. And so they get really aggressive. And at some point in their careers that cost them a tournament, whether it's on the PGA tour, web.com or wherever, and they learn from that. And they go on and they say, okay, next time we get in this situation, we're going to

think a little more strategically. And if necessary, we're going to play cautious. If that's the right move at the right time. Yeah. I just, I don't think, I know it's risky and this doesn't, I really have a hard time supporting this argument I'm about to make because he hit in the water twice and made bogey both times, but I also think in his head he's thinking, all right, the only chance I have of hitting this driver in the water is left. And if you go in that water, left, you have a relatively easy pitch shot onto the green and can make par from there.

He did that in the playoff, hit three wood in that water, did not get up and down from that spot. But I'm thinking that probably went into his conclusion, his thinking as well, is that even if I think there's maybe a 15% chance I'm going to hit this ball in the water, I can still make par from that. I understand that players are, you know, a hundred yard wedge shot to a Tor Pro is nothing. But you look back at the first round in the first time they played the 18th hole in the playoff, he had 110 yards in.

Missed the green short was easily got up and down, but he missed the green with the wedge. They do miss greens with wedges. If that wedge shot hits too hard on the green and runs through to that, from the angle he'd be coming at, there's water behind the pin. It's just, there's a lot of variables that had to go into that thinking and not. His thinking is probably get it as close he can to the green as possible. And he's probably still thought he may have needed a birdie too. So...

Let me put it this way to you. And not saying this proves my argument. But what do you think the average score is with Ricky Fowler, point driver on that hole, versus Ricky Fowler, point hired? If you were to play it like 10th, like right now, or like looking back at his past, I think the answer to that is going to be, he probably had to drive her a lot there. I don't know the club choice exactly, but his history on that hole is not good So looking back I think that that that's a fair question if if they were to play it 10 times right now

I think he without a doubt would average lower score with the driver than he would an iron off that But in turn of it play he's he said trouble on that whole right He's got history and it's a high pressure situation. I I just think I just and it's a high pressure situation. I just think, again, I just think it's the percentage play there. And this is the time when you make the percentage play. Where you're not trying to play for eagle or anything like that. Just make the percentage play. And it's not the only thing that costs him.

If he made that put on 16, that's probably the tournament right there. It's almost definitely the tournament right there. And then I think we may have seen the iron. But I don't know. I mean, we're kind of going back and forth and surface as a little bit at this point but I agree that there's arguments for both I don't say I'm a hundred percent right but I do you know I just considering all the evidence I do think he he sort of made a mistake. Yep no it's fair to say I guess if I were to round up my thesis it would be he knew

how well he was playing he led the field in Strokes game tea degreeing for the whole day even including this water bulge was a huge error or the field in Strokes game T-Degrean for the whole day, even including this water ball, which was a huge error, or the result of it being a huge error, that he was in control of the moment, he wanted to stay in control of it, and he executed it, and he got a bad break. So I just don't, with all the, considering the distance with it involved in this shot to have chosen the wrong club based on distance, right? So you can make the argument that he could have had driver and pulled it

left into the water blah blah blah but ended up being a bad call because of the distance of the club and it wasn't that he took on an unnecessary risk with the water. The result at least you could say. To have that happen on a whole of that length is very understandable. I mean players miss club when they're from a hundred yards out sometimes. So I think that he was just very in control of his game, knew he could execute the shot and did it and got unlucky. So that I guess would be my thesis. But I wanted to say is his caddy actually, since I woke up to this message from him overnight that Joe Scoverung, I believe is how he pronounced his caddy's names, said

he read my article and said great analysis here. You nailed everything we were considering and what we were trying to do. Some people were actually chirping at him on Twitter that somebody said, somebody's Ian Taylor says to him, the T-shirt on 17 was unlucky, but two-shot lead should have taken water out of play with Iron off the tea hashtag hindsight Joe replied and said went through the process and made our call didn't work out needed three shot lead to consider laying up So they had at least had that thought in mind and that so that's true that if you had made that plot They would have considered yeah if they had made the plan 16 well Yeah, I will say this funny because I was just gonna ask you if you put any blame on the caddy what I would say to that is

Of course you would say that to you That you nailed it. Of course Yeah, because that essentially takes the blame off and by saying it was the right choice and I'm not saying look Ricky Fowler hit a great shot But is it not incumbent on on him at some point and maybe he did say this but to say look here's Here's what could happen here. I know this course on'm a caddy it's my job to know this course there's a there's a spot of downhill slope here where you can hit it because I know you and I know how far you hit a driver and I know the trajectory at which you hit the driver where if you hit this this spot

it's going to skip ahead and it could go in the water right I mean you shouldn't he have called that yeah in theory I think I just I when just I when I'm not a PJ tour player, but when I'm playing golf, I don't look at a mound 80 yards in front of water and think that if I hit it on the downslip of this mound, it's going to go in the water. I don't know how big that that is. And that's why you never made it, Chris. That is the one thing that is helping back. That's it. I don't know how big that mound is, but and maybe my physics of it aren't as good either, but I'm thinking with as low as he hit it, but the lower trajectory, he even smaller chance of it hitting that mound, granted the combination of the low trajectory

with that mound made it spring forward that 80 yards, but again, it's just a combination of events that you can't possibly foresee happening. I put zero blame, these guys know these courses, but you can't possibly know that that is even an option. That thought probably never floated in their mind. I think Greller would have camped out on the map at some point on Tuesday night. Bones with Greller. I have such a Greller fan.

I think he's the great. I really enjoy listening to Ian's Speed Talk. And I do, I mean, I know this is just complete speculation. I'm totally unfounded, but I feel like you would have known. I feel like, I feel like Rillie would have known that and Speed probably would have too. And they would have spent like five minutes talking about it beforehand.

Bones would have been 10 in the pen up there. That would have been the best part. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. What I will say is one thing that really hurts is, I forget where I heard this said, but could have been rumor or something I read on Twitter in that. I don't really remember this because they did. You could hear a lot of the conversation,

but maybe I need to replay the conversation, but Scoveron was actually the one that talked Ricky into hitting driver and Ricky wanted to hit three wood. So, that's interesting because if you hit three wood into that exact same spot, it's not going in the water because it's going to be a higher trajectory. Correct. However, the last thing I'll say about hindsight on this is that, I'm not to pull a gotcha move on this but it's more to my overall point in that. Now basically, I hit three wood in the water, hit driver in the water. Now the consensus move is he should hit iron off the tea. Whereas if he doesn't hit three wood in the water there, if he hits three wood on the green,

the second time through, people are not saying you would say this but I'm saying people will probably be saying, look, he should hit three wood. That's all he need to do is hit three wood right in the middle of the green the second time through people I'm not saying you would say this but I'm saying people will probably be saying look he should hit three wood that's all you need to do is hit three wood right in the middle of the green when really we can look back at hindsight and say both driver and three would ended up being the wrong call and with the first thing before he even hit three wood in the water you I made the point I said on Twitter I was like I said players make critical club choices about 40 times around if you want to get on Ricky for hitting a driver there at the risk of going 360, go ahead. And you said to me, except literally every other club would not have gone in the water.

And it's like, well, now we know the three would have gone in the water. Well, now we do. But at the time, you didn't know that. So it's, I know you probably looking back that you'd say, well, I would now, I would say three on iron. But now we have all this information to say, we, I would now, I would say three iron iron. But now we have all this information to say, we know these two options didn't work out. It should have been this third one, which in the moment we don't have that. I think what I meant essentially is that I think what I meant to defend myself there

is that a three would not have gone in the water to the rear of the green. Correct. But of course it could have gone to the left of the green. Yeah, my point goes back to the same thing. If a three iron was long enough to go in the water and say don't use the three iron You know what I mean? It's right any club any is any club that won't go in the water 100% now obviously I think in the playoff you it's a different story I'm not saying he should have used the iron on the on the playoff hole when he got there at that point

You have to play for birdie and the three woods is a fine choice. It just you get a bad shot. Whatever. What are you gonna do? Yeah. Alright, I'm ready. That's 25 minutes of that. I'm ready to move on from this. I win. You lose. We'll just slide right. The slide right on. I don't think you're right. That's my birdie sandwich. No, yeah. It's a good, it's a good robust discussion. I'm glad we had it. It is. It's fair. The gloves. I took a couple bruises. I mean, I think I'll be all right. And I think no matter what Chris, I think you and I disagree on some small points, but I think together on this stage we're much better than Kyle Porter. That's amazing.

That's another debate move. Obviously, that's not personal Kyle. I did. I was a little upset at the latest friends of Tiger. I think it took 12 minutes before I was mentioned in this last, last go around in the podcast. You really, it's so funny. I mean, it's, I think at some point, as you've ever weren't mentioned, I'd mentioned you in the end in the conclusion.

And just like, yeah, I just wanna say hi to Chris Salman, but it's never gotten there. You always come up. You are, you are the dominant force in the golf narrative at this point, I think. All right, moving past the club choice. And I don't want to get, I have a couple more things I want to touch on on Fowler, just in general.

I feel like I've spent the majority of my years so far talking about him, which is fine by me because I've been talking about him for a long time in that, I don't know if I saw him becoming this good that he's become, but I definitely thought the rep of, you know, being all style, no substance was not very fair, but what did you, I'm surprised it's not been made a more of a big deal this week. I'm not saying it is a big deal, but you touched on it with Alex, but what did you think of the emotional reaction after the waste management? Yeah, I really liked it. You know, I really like when guys show that sort of passion

about winning and losing an tournament. Now, I think what choked him up was not the fact of losing, necessarily as much as it was that he wanted to win for his dad, his grandfather, who have never seen him win in person. But I don't know, I just like the sense. Obviously, you don't need someone crying to show that it means a lot to them,

but it just It retroactively raises the stakes in a way that makes me more excited about golf if that makes sense Yeah, it's like it's like this is what these guys are feeling out there. This is what could happen to them Um, I had the same feeling and I'm not like the biggest hunter mayhem fan, but That the old clip of him crying after the rider cup.. It just makes you like him and it makes you, it just makes golf feel so dramatic and so important. It does. It enhances my enjoyment when there are these emotional reactions and I already like Ricky Fowler anyway.

He was one of my favorite people to talk to and I think he's a pretty decent guy as far as I know. And so it's cool, it's just one of those things that makes you root for him and I think it's a clip that if he happens to win a major this year, you'll, they'll play that clip and it'll be a nice little, you know, story arc. Like here's, here's how much this guy cares and here's where he came from and here's what he's doing now. Yeah, I think I forget if it was you or Alex Myers that made the point and then I'm forgetting it what the actual point was Oh, the comparison was him to Jason Day about a year ago

In that we don't look we we look at Jason Day probably differently than we currently do now that he's won a major and What what what we're seeing from Ricky now a year from now? Are we gonna be looking at him like we look at maybe look at Jason Day now? So my question for you if you're taking over under 1.5 wins this season on the PJ Twerfer Ricky. What are you taking? Oh? Good question Yeah, I'll take the over on that for sure. I mean he's playing so well. I think I think you have to take the over I'd be interested. What if what if I asked you a major win this year is 0.5 or under why like you're taking the question

I wrote down like five questions and you're taking them right off my dams. I'm sorry. I made four major picks before the season and I stick with them. I Did not pick him to win a major this year But it's in the least hot take you'll ever here. I would not be surprised to see him win a major this year, but it's the least hot take you'll ever hear, I would not be surprised to see him win a major this year. I honestly, I know, I know, I know. I actually just put down a bet on him at 25 to one to win the Masters before the odds lowered because I think that's absurd. I mean, I think, um, it's crazy. Yeah, that's a great bet. I mean, the guy is playing the best golf probably of any American except maybe spieth right crazy. Yeah, that's a great bet. I mean, the guy is playing the best golf probably

Of any American except maybe spieth right now. Yeah, and we want to talk about and I've even made the point the distance At least in the world rankings between one two and three and Ricky is huge, but the ability is not the resume is not quite there yet Obviously with Ricky compared to those other guys, but His ability that's I think that's a different thing from being odds on consider it going into a tournament. Does that make sense? Oh yeah totally does and another thing with him is where is this driving coming from all of a sudden? I mean is this, well maybe it's not new, maybe it's not new but I was just some of his

distances at Phoenix and it's like oh my god I mean once you can do that you're essentially you know on a level with Rory and Jason Day. Yeah, I don't, they talked about this in the broadcast too. I actually thought they were pretty spot on about it because I think you can tend to just look at what you're seeing currently and think, oh my God, Ricky Fowler's a top 10 guy on tour. There's a lot of problems with driving distance stat

that the PJ tour keeps, especially at this point in the season, it's probably measuring somewhere between, I don't know, maybe five or six drives of foulers. He's something like 58th on tour in driving distance. Like it's not, it's not, he's not this crazy bomber that he showed he was, though in Phoenix. He's the only one that hit it over that green. He was the long drive guy on like on several holes out there

So they brought up the question like does he just is he this guy that just has this extra gear and I usually try to stay away from a cliche like that But I almost think that might be the case Yeah, I know it's it it's so interesting too because I mean if he can do that consistently it changes things completely doesn't it? I mean it's it's a little bit out of nowhere. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what to think about it right now, but if he can, I mean, yeah, he's easily one of the five best, well, he's already one of the five best players in the world, but

he, to me, I consider him on that operational on if he can do that consistently. But what makes him so interesting to me, a lot of people give Butch Harmon credit for his rebound, which definitely does deserve credit. But again, we're looking at, it's February, so looking at the season, the year-to-date stats for the year don't mean that much. But he's third in strokes, I'm sorry, sixth in strokes game putting so far this year on Tories, gaining almost a shot per round on the field. And he's third in strokes game total. So it's a lot, he's very well-rounded in the same way that Speed is, and I know you and Alex talk about this too, saying Speed doesn't get enough

credit for how good his long game is, but I also don't think Ricky gets enough credit for how good his putting is. Yeah, totally true. Totally true. Let me ask you a quick question about driving distance. So the PGA Tourists' official stats, they basically have like one or two holes in every tournament where they measure a drive from there. Is that right? Yep. But isn't there also a stat that takes every single drive based on...

Shot link? Based on shot link, yeah. Is there something like that? Wouldn't that be more accurate? Why are they sticking with this old system? To be honest, I'm not even sure what they... I know that that is how they used to measure drives. And if you pull up, so I'm on his pdator page right now,

it says total drives measured 28. I think the reason for that is they pick two holes that they are pretty sure that somebody is going to hit driver on. So that if you're factoring everyone's drive, then you got a factor in club choice. Somebody's hitting three wood or hitting iron off the 17th tee like how I loop that back in there. So I think they but at the same time from week to week those holes could be playing into the wind downwind downhill. It's

just not a very good measurement. It's not it's you can't point to number one and say that he's definitely longer than number five off the tee I don't think yeah Now there's another stat called driving distance all drives where bubble Watson right now is leading and they've measured 116 drives already in 2016 and so But I don't know I don't know like you said it might be that they don't sort for when you actually use driver You would think they would that would be a dumb stat otherwise But anyway, yeah, I think that I don't know I I just think more data, even though, even though obviously you have holes that are downwind, upwind, or weird days, or whatever, I think if you get like

300 drives or 500 by the end of the year of data, that's going to be way more accurate than the PGA Tourist system. Yeah, I would have to think so. I'm just getting in the wheel, getting in the weeds. Yeah. Something I was curious about. No, I like to talk about stats. I don't talk about enough on this podcast or when I write. Because I like using stats.

I'm not very proficient from a statistics standpoint. So I don't really like talking about it. Because I don't necessarily know what I'm saying. When I use the stats is what my point is. But you didn't stop you, the Phoenix Open stuff. Well, that's true. I'm not saying that. That wasn't that stat based from my, from I could have, I could have said, I did look

up some, there's a great Twitter account I followed. Pj win probability or something like that. Oh, yeah, yeah, I've seen that too. Yeah, and it actually had fall or 91% to win the tournament, standing on that 17th C, which I thought that was very interesting. Yeah. But you mentioned asking, where are the good stat writers? And I wanted to mention, I've tweeted a link to him as well, but you should be aware of Jake Nichols.

He has his own website, and he also writes now some for golf.com. He actually wrote an article for NoLingUp.com last year, which beg the question was why doesn't Ricky Fowler win more? And he made great points in saying, look, Ricky plays his best golf in the biggest events and he's just been edged out by some of the top talent in the world several times along the way. If he continues playing this way, he's going to be racking up the wins. A year later, that prediction, although a very safe prediction, it looks very good,

but he backed it up from a statistical standpoint. So if you're looking for somebody who is a great, great writer from a stat standpoint, at JAL Nichols, J-A-L Nichols is his Twitter account. Nichols is his Twitter account. I don't know if you can feel the same way. Whenever you share something or post something and somebody that you follow or really respect in the industry shares it, you feel like you did something right. He's like the smartest from a statistical standpoint guy that I know of and golf and he's shared my SB nation article yesterday. He said, boom, I win again, you lose.

But, does he have a re-tweets Donico endorsements thing on his Twitter? Ooh, I should look that up. I should look that up. I've got him, he does not. So he was probably endorsing you. Yeah, no, I actually, in the fight thing is very, remember, now that you mentioned, I remember

that Ricky Fowler article, and it was very, very good. I enjoyed it, I enjoyed it immensely. So yeah, that's cool. And I'm already following him on Twitter. So I had an answer in front of me, just didn't know it. Boom. All right, I's cool and I'm already following him on Twitter. So I had an answer in front of me. Just didn't know it. Boom. Alright, I think this next one is a pretty easy one for the two of us considering I think we've definitely fallen the same side of this. But what did you think of Phoenix's treatment of one Sir Jerry Lester Watson Jr. during the Phoenix Open this week. Well, okay, so here's the thing.

I had a pretty busy weekend and you'll have to film me in because I don't exactly say, I know what happened before the tournament obviously, but I didn't see exactly what happened on 16. Did they, did they rasm? Oh my God, dude. So when that happened, when his comments came out, I was, I was all over it over it, as you might imagine,

beating it to death, doing my thing. I started the hashtag, boobubba on 16. I'm not gonna claim responsibility for it, but 16 was, it was kind of a house divided on Thursday, but there was definitely some strong booze when he stood up and then on Thursday, but there was definitely some strong booze when he stood up and then on Friday, I'm gonna make sure I get the days right here. Maybe Friday was the bad one.

Friday afternoon crowd, I think was the bad one. I don't know, I think it was Saturday. Anyways, I don't know because the PGA tour took my vines down that I took of it, but anyways. Ah! He missed a short putt, everyone goes nuts, booing him, he taps it in waves and then just as clear as day, somebody else in there like, blah, blah, you effing loser, like perfectly clear, and then somebody right behind him goes, oh, you gonna cry?

And like, oh, my, like, and the reports that got from inside the arena were like that It was like it was way worse than even was on TV like he absolutely got roasted Almost to the point where I felt bad almost but not quite One thing I'll say is that you know a lot of people made a point which with any other player would be a good point is that when he, when he was talking about the course changes and how he didn't like them and whatever, they're like, oh, but don't you want, you, you want transparency and honesty from the players. It's like, yeah, but when Bubble Watson does it, I just get the feeling that he is winding somehow, that he's, that he's not being legitimate, that he doesn't like 16, that he's pissed off, that he finished second here a couple times, and that he's really just being his normal baby-ish self.

Now, if Jordan Smith had got out there and said, look, I think some of these architectural changes aren't good for the tournament. I don't know why they did it, and here's why. Yeah, it would be awesome. And we'd love to hear that perspective from a player. But I just don't trust Bubba, that he's not just being a little baby, you know? I totally agree. I think his explanation for it on, again,

I'm confused my days of the week at this point, but he backtracked on it a little bit, said he apologize, didn't get his message out better. I don't, you know me, I'm as hard as anyone on Bubba. I actually, what he said made a lot more sense and that he explained himself a lot better. I think that was also a little bit of agency and PR driven, but I'm actually in agreement with them on the changes to the course

I think it may has made it less fun. I Don't agree that it's like it targets bombers to wind about that Honestly on the PJ tour Baba is just that's ridiculous considering how beneficial it is to be a bomber on the tour But you just can't stand up there and say, I'm only here because my sponsors, because guess what the last thing your sponsors want you to say when you get up there is, that they're making you be there. It's implied. We know that. We're not idiots. We know that you have obligations to play certain tournaments. Everyone knows that. Don't get up there and say it. That does make you a whiny little bit that's that that's accurate like the uh... yeah it's that's true and he's it's yet

and he had to be kind to everything hide hide behind the whole my hair because my so yeah right exactly they don't want you to say that me it's it's just another like when he you know the last time you had an explosion he's sites religion it's the same thing is always somebody else's fault it's always somebody else to put the blame on uh... i can't take him i really can't take yeah no i think uh... i think that, I think you and I talked about this

way back in like 2014, the first time we did a podcast was actually the PGA championship, I think, and that we felt the tide was actually turning on Bubba and from being this happy-go-lucky, and really popular guy too. He's still got a ton of fans, he's always gonna have a ton of fans. But it feels like

he has more haters than fans at this point. I know that's not accurate, but it's the minority is very vocal now. Yeah, and I think especially in online, especially on Twitter, and probably journalists who write about golf, the tide is starting to turn. And I would say, let's pat each other on the back. I think we've played at least some small role. Absolutely. I'm two hands patting myself on the back for this. And I'll say is I mean, he's got a lot of fans, but know who else had a lot of fans? Adolf Hitler, circle, circle 1933 in Mountsley, Germany, I'm just saying. I think that is the perfect comparison. I tried to get this.

I couldn't land this tweet or have it fit into 140. He was paired with Brooks Capcom Justin Thomas for the first two rounds and I wanted to tweet something like I feel like I'm watching the Yalta conference with Churchill and Roosevelt needing somebody to stand up to Stalin but I couldn't land it. Oh my god that's funny. Yeah Oh my God, that's funny. Yeah, oh my God, that's funny. I think I think if you started a new Twitter thing where you compare Puppet to Hitler,

I'll be tweet every single thing you do. Oh, I have before. I think who was it? I really? When Speed, it was the hero world challenge this year. Paul Casey was close to, oh, you'll like this story. He was close to Bubba. Bubba was kind of winning by three or four and Casey was trying to run him down and I think Speed got involved and got close to it. And so I said

something like Speed, coming to, or he Speed trying to run down Baba with Paul Casey not the first time America's come to Britain's aid to overthrow an evil dictator. And and and and speech mom retweeted it. Oh my God. There it is. I couldn't believe it. I was like, does she understand what I'm trying to say here?

I'm not sure she does, but but you know, it's so funny to you is that people when they can, you know, you've had these people, they complain that you're being mean to a player or or what do you know, it's so funny too is that people when they you know, you've had these people they complain that you're being mean to a player or or what do you know Whatever big and feelings we have toward Baba don't come close to matching with actual PGA toward players Oh, the guy this is this is not some made-up narrative by journalists or fans This is like we're just giving you a fraction of what the actual story is. And so maybe speech mom didn't know, but I also wouldn't be surprised if she knew exactly what you meant. And I'd heard stuff from Speedher, whoever,

saying exactly what a jerk this guy is. I just, Speedh seems to be the best, like possible PR machine. So you just pictured his whole family is the same way. But Speedh also really tweeted me once when I made a joke about J-H.H.S. had special rules for Patrick Reed for the President's Cup that included not referring to his biceps as the real nuclear arms and stuff like that.

I was very surprised speed-tweeted that one. Speed has got an impish quality to him and I think last year when I covered him in 2014 he was just like the good boy through and through and it was boring sometimes. Last year I loved listening to him in press conferences. I thought he changed big time. Perhaps it was winning the masters that kind of freed him up a little there. I think as he gets older we're going to start to see speed less is like the perfect PR machine and more is like a really interesting dude who's pretty smart and also has a pretty

decent sense of humor. At least I hope so. Yeah, we're talking about appreciating honesty and whatnot. Like, the way he does it is how you do it. Okay, I mean, I know it's still PR, it's a, he airs more on the side of being good PR guy than being overly honest or aggressive in the media, but the way he and Rory do it is the way it should be done

as far as honesty. They'll tell you how you feel and they're not gonna act like a whiny little baby up there for the most part. But back to, and Rory, let's say Rory is the best. I mean, there's nobody better than Rory. Maybe Graham McDowell, but those two are the absolute best. But back to an example that those, he said after after the Abu Dhabi Championship, he talked about how tired he was and I knew now I've talked about this as well about you know his schedule going forward. Personally I want to know what you think. I just think that's overblown because yeah he over-scheduled himself kind of in this January

February stretch overseas and he admits that but just in a post game press conference he said I'm tired.'s really it that's the that's the extent of the story for me 22 year olds and I told this to shame bacon 22 year olds go home they go to sleep and then they're fine like I don't think he's burnt out or running risk of being burnt out at this point you agree yeah totally and I think if there is any kind of burnout coming to him it doesn't have anything to do with having played two tournaments in Asia in a row it's gonna have it's gonna have to do with dealing with everything that happened I don't think being in Asia for two weeks, like he said. By the time he gets to Pebble Beach this week, he's going to be fully recovered, I would think.

Yeah, I'm excited to see him and day in the field this week. I don't remember him being in the field last year. They were, they both finished in the top two weeks. I don't remember him being in the field this week. I don't remember him being in the field this week. I don't remember him being in the field this week. I don't remember him being in the field this week. I don't remember him being in the field this week.

I don't remember him being in the field this week. I don't remember him being in the field this week. excited to see him and day in the field this week. I don't remember them being in the field last year. They were, they both finished in the top 10 actually, but it's just funny how different we look at both of them now. And I looked it up, they were actually, now I forget, but Speed was ninth ranked player in the world at this point last year. It's easy to forget that.

And day was not, I think day was even behind that. So it's funny to see, like I think Hendrick Stenson was the second ranked player in the world last year. It's easy to forget that. And day was not, I think day was even behind that. So it's funny to see, I think Henry Stenson was the second ranked player in the world last year. And we almost barely hear his name on this side of the pond this time, probably because of our own fault. But it's it's also, I mean, he's also on the downside of his career, a career that is starting to become more and more defined by never having one a major, despite being a really, really good player, right? So, but it's almost

it's almost like we that I agree, but we don't talk about him in the same way we do Sergio for never having one a major, you know? Yeah, very true, very true. And I think, you know, Phil and Tron from from from no laying up there, they've always made the point. They think that Sergio gets an unfair treatment from from people here in that, you know He's he's labeled as this guy. There's never one a major when like guys like Kutcher get praised And then they've never even sniffed a major so to a point I agree with that I just yeah, I mean, I don't think I've ever taught this is the 30th podcast. I've done

I don't think I've ever talked Henry Stenson. I just don't think I ever had. There's not really not much to talk about when it comes to him. Yeah he's so interesting because he's a very funny guy. I mean you've probably seen that. He's a very, he's got a great rise, Swedish sense of humor. But Jonas Blix is the same exact thing. But he doesn't, he's also pretty private. You don't hear much about him. His private life or anything like that. He doesn't, other than the time he's stripped down to his underwear, he doesn't, other than the time he's stripped down to his underwear, he doesn't do anything that crazy on the course. He does break clubs.

He does break clubs, yeah, which I always appreciate. But he doesn't, you know, Sergio, Sergio is a head case, you know, so that's why he gets so much press. But since it's more like, I mean, he's like coochered with more personality, but that same kind of low lying type personality profile. Oh my God. Tron is going to, if Tron listens this far into it, he's going to kill you for saying he's like Kutcher because he's public enemy number one. But I love Stenson and Kutcher to me is super boring.

So I'm not comparing them as people just as the attention they get is golfers. All right, you're safe. You're safe. Have you got a chance to or are you subscribed to PGA Tour Live? No, I haven't. Tell me the deal with it because I know there used to be featured groups. Can you actually watch coverage online now?

Oh god, yeah. It's five bucks a month, and honestly, you would think that I'm getting paid for the things that I say about it, but it is awesome. It's phenomenal. We talked about this last on the podcast. Can you watch weekend rounds live? You can.

Before coverage comes on, they have feature whole coverage. Actually, you know what? I think throughout the entire day on the weekends, they have feature whole coverage. This past week, they had 12 and 16th holes the entire weekend, you could watch every single shot. So like not, but you, is there also an option to watch the actual coverage of the event or no? Oh, I see what you're saying. No, there's not as far as I know.

But on Thursday and Friday, there is. Is that okay? No, Thursday and Friday, like during the mornings, at least in the US, morning hours, they give you feature groups and they also give you a feature group in the afternoon. And it's actually two groups so there's six players six guys that they follow I could you know I honestly I can't remember if they do

it in the afternoon as well but maybe it's just the morning but there's six guys they follow for the entire 18 holes so for someone like me having Justin Thomas and Brooks kept prepared together I got to watch every single one of their shots for an entire round neither of them played that well unfortunately but I that's exactly what we what we've been clamoring for for so long. Oh, it's great. It's fantastic. On demand viewing of every single player is probably unrealistic, but this is as close as you can get. And it's phenomenal. The guys that run a John Swantek, that's the play-by-play,

he's awesome. It's great. I rip on a lot of things. So when I see something I like, I want to make sure I give it the proper credit. And I fully, fully endorse subscribing PGA Tour Live. Here's a, here's a suggestion for PGA Tour. Here's something I would pay $5, $10 a month for. If you had those feature groups, if they had a video after the round, call it like, I don't know what you'd call it, like every shot or all 72 or something, where you can just watch a five minute video of every single shot that Jordan's beef token around. That European tour is already doing something like that. Do they have something like that? I definitely thought that would be amazing. I would love to do that.

I'd watch the Jordan's beef for five minutes. How great would that be? It's kind of like the condense, I don't know if you're baseball fan of the MLB.com has the same condense games. The next day you can watch 15-minute summary. It's actually really good the condensed, I don't know if you're baseball fam with the MLB.com has the same condensed games The next day you can watch it 15 minutes summary It's actually really good extensive summary of the game. It just plays no announcers or anything NBA league passes the same exact thing. It's great. It's great. It's probably it's really one of the main reasons I ordered NBA league Pass this year because they had that feature. Yeah, so I don't know if your PN tour does that for every event But I know they at least saw them advertising doing it once when Rory Like you'd see all 66 shots Rory hit or something for one round. So yeah, I agree

I like to see that come to the PJ tour as well and there may be something like that in the works But I feel like I'm and you it's a bad week for you to have not gotten to see a lot But what they did Wednesday to in the program with the waste management was it was phenomenal It was phenomenal. It was PJ tour live again, but it was they had GoPro's strap to the players and like live streaming from the GoPro's. Wow, that's great. Interviews with the players up to the green and it was honestly like it felt like like a transition moment in golf like in coverage. Like it felt like golf was cool. This was this was like I know only the diehards were watching it, but it honestly felt transformative to me.

And I think the image that'll stick with me the most, I forget which day it was again, but one of the days, Fowler got walked through the tunnel to maybe it was Friday, walked through the tunnel. And as he's about to hit, you know, way does hands in the air and the crowd went absolutely nuts for him to hit. And I just think like,

I don't know, something like Phoenix is, it's got to be copied, at least in some way in other events like this, because it's one of the best events of the year, it really is. Yeah, it's true. They try something like it at the Byron Nelson. I think with them, it's the 17th hole, it's a part three. And they try to get that same atmosphere going, but it's just everyone's a little too reserved. And I think there

are like expensive seats and then cheap seats so it's not this fully democratic everybody's in the stands type deal like it isn't Phoenix and it doesn't compare but I agree I think it's one of the coolest things that happens every year I love that it's a kind of thing where they can scream and yell at Bubba and I hope the PGA tour kind of pulls back on watering it down I hope they I hope they keep that spirit intact. Yep. All right, I got a couple more for you

and then we'll get to hit the road here. But Brett Coburn asked me this in a mail bag question. I haven't gotten to it yet. I still need a mail bag I need to finish. But who is the PGA Tour player that would look the worst in high tops and joggers? Hey, good question. Oh, Jim Furek.

I'll take that one. I was gonna go with Phil. I think that would be hilarious if Phil. You can feel it like terrible. You're absolutely right. Yeah. I mean, like anyone fat. Let's say that.

Anyone fat would not look good. I don't know if you saw Shane Bacon's mailbag from a couple of weeks ago. He, uh, someone asked him like, what the worst fashion combo would be? And it was Phil Michelson wearing Rio Ishaqa was here And he Photoshopped Phil on the Rio's body. Oh my god. It was phenomenal That's great

What is I think the obvious reason I'm asking this is we're currently in my favorite stretch But what's your favorite stretch of events or or courses necessarily on the PGA tour? So just PGA so I can't say British should open WGC PGA championship, right? No, no. Okay, I think the major is, yeah. Yeah, I think the obvious answer for me is, when we do Pebble Beach and then Riviera,

I think those two courses are both spectacular. That was some of the, there were some of the first tournaments I covered in 2014 for the book. It just, and they blew me away. I mean, it was, I got, this was right before the Florida Swing, so I got a very wrong idea of what my year would be like. After going to California, but I just think those two courses are fantastic. And, you know, I enjoy, because for me as a Northeasterner, it's so, it's such a novelty to be in the desert.

So I think what I did, I think what I did that year was, yeah, it was Phoenix, Pebble, Riviera, and then the Mashplay, which was in Tucson at that point, and it's not anymore. But yeah, I think I would say these next three are my favorites on the PGA Tour. Along the same lines, will we see you out on the PGA tour this year covering events, or do you know what you will be covering this year? Yeah, well, I had this big idea to write a Ryder Cup book this year.

And I think what I've heard is that John Feinstein is doing one. And so I'm not interested in computing with the biggest name in golf book writing. So I think I'm still ready for golf digest. Hopefully I'll get to go to a couple tournaments. I really want to go to the Ryder Cup to find a way to do that. But beyond a couple majors in the Ryder Cup, I would say don't bet on it.

Are you still learning French in anticipation of the 2018 Ryder Cup? I have, what's the program called? The Rosetta stuff. If you have to ask what it's called you must not be practicing very hard Yep, that's correct That's correct. I did I went to like the free and I like doing it But yeah, things just got in the way. I'm actually going to Paris this and I'm taking a French trip this summer

So my idea was to learn it ahead of that but no, I'm not to not anymore I've done very poorly well, you have to give me the dates for that And maybe I can jump a train. It's only about three hour train ride down there. Oh, yeah, of course that'd be great So yeah, I need a return trip to Paris. I went there for one weekend But I feel like I need more time there. It's all I've you been there before Yeah, I have it. It's like an eighth grade so it doesn't count Yeah, exactly. I'm so excited to go back cool Cool. All right, my friend. Thank you so much for the healthy debate. I'll take a couple months to let our friendship

recover and check back in. You guys can follow Shane on Twitter at Shane Ryan here and I do strongly suggest checking out his podcast. Stop y'all not me for not producing enough podcasts. Just go listen to his as well. It'll help it'll help fill the void of my empty podcast schedule So that's right. It will have you on soon. Yes, let's do it. Let's do it. Great. Thank you sir. Take care Right That's better than most That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most.

Better than most.