No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 305: "Be a Player" authors Pia Nilsson and Lynn Marriott

Episode Date: April 22, 2020

The mental side of golf is complicated, but Pia Nilsson and Lynn Marriott have set out to make it easier to understand and comprehend. Their book "Be a Player" is a great guide towards gaining confidence on the golf course. We don't do a lot of game improvement stuff on this podcast, but Soly swears that he cut measurable strokes off his game just by going through the exercises that this book lays out. Soly chats with Pia and Lynn about the concepts in the book, and there's plenty of information here that will help you play better golf. Thanks a ton to both Pia and Lynn for the time.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Better than most! Alright, welcome back to another episode of the No-Lang Up Podcast. Gonna be a little change of pace from our recent interviews and group sessions we've done. I recorded this interview about two months ago with Pian Nilsson and Lynn Marriott. They are from Vision 54, we'll get into a bit of that. We don't do a lot of game improvement stuff, but I've gotten a lot of questions. If you guys listen to the goals podcast on the trap draw that we did,

at the end of last year beginning of this year, I don't remember exactly when it was. I talked about this book called Be a Player and how much it has helped me with my golf game. And I got enough requests from people that they wanted to actually hear from the authors on on the book and how it's you know how it's helped me and what the mental philosophies are. I learned way more about the mental side of golf than I even knew existed. And we go through a lot of that with Lynn and Pia.

I try not to make it about my golf game too much, but I kind of thought it would be somewhat interesting material to kind of have them coach me a little bit and talk through some of the things that I think I learned and have them really explain it to. So you don't have to have read the book. I encourage people to go pick up the book and I think you'll want to after you've listened to this.

But I, you know, with this downtime, if you're not able to play golf right now, listening to, it's a good time to maybe take a fresh approach to the game when you do pick the clubs back up. And this is no better place to learn it. I honestly believe that I've I've it's hard to overstate how much impact this book has had on my game. So enjoy the interview before we do get rolling to we've talked of course about the impact the COVID-19 situation is having on global tours, golfers and everything

that's trying to join them. One of the players is Chintaro Bann. He's a 24 year old native of San Jose. He was a first team, all American at UNLV. He played four years at UNLV. He was on the 2018 Palmer Cup team. He won four times a senior year, semi-finals for the Ben Hogan award. He played on the McKenzie Tour and was getting ready to head out to play PGA toward China, but the global pandemic has his entire situation up in the air. The Calaway

golf team was actually out shooting content with him as he found out about the latest post-ponents and that's part of the video profile about him that they just posted today. Check it out to learn his stories, how he got to UNLV, what it was like playing at the US Open at Shinnokok was daily training as like, I got a bunch of footage from his gym workouts and all that kind of stuff, which add that in with some of the mental stuff you're about to learn. I'm sure you'll become a much better golfer. So it's pretty intense.

It's an interesting look at how guys that want to be tour players spend their time. I've been fortunate to spend, you know, a lot of time move around, a lot of those guys around here in Jacksonville. And the depth of the amount of players that are at that level will absolutely amaze you. You can watch the video on Callaway's YouTube channel, youtube.com slash CallawayGolf. That's youtube.com slash CallawayGolf for a great introduction to Shantero Band. Without any further delay, let's get to today's interview. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang-Up podcast.

I'm thrilled to be joined today via the phone with Pia Nilsson and Lynn Marriott. They are the co-authors of the book I've been telling you guys about called Be a Player. First things first, when there's two voices on, I have to try to make sure that we can identify the difference in the two voices. So I do want to hear a bit of your background. Pia, let's start with you. If you could give us your golf background and Lynn, if you could provide yours as well. Yeah. And so I will be having my Swinglish accent.

Anyways, I started playing golf already when I was six years old because my family played in Sweden. But I grew up in Sweden through junior golf and even during my time we had junior programs in Sweden, and I did really well, and then I ended up going to college as Arizona State, and played on the team, and then I played professionally. And I actually never planned on being a coach ever. It just kind of happened to me, because as I went back to Sweden, everybody said, oh, wow, what did he learn? And I realized I had so much I wanted to share. So I just checked out supporting younger players a little bit

and then I fell in love with being a coach and everything I've learned and experienced started to make sense. So I've been coaching off now for over 30 years and it's pretty awesome. Yeah, I want to get into kind of some of where you learned some of the concepts that you teach, who you learn that from and how you learned it, but Lynn, first of we could get some of your background as well and how you and Pia met. Yeah, so I started golf as a family adventure with my mom because

she wanted to, she didn't want to be a golf widow. I often tell that because my dad was such an avid golfer. So we learned together and then I played golf at Penn State on a scholarship. And straight out of college, I started teaching golf. And I was one of the first women to become a member of the PGA of America. And I knew straight away I wanted to be a golf teacher, not a director at golf or had professional learning that in the business.

I just loved helping people. And so I was, I've been a golf professional really since I graduated from college, mainly in teaching. And I was first, of course, a technical teacher, because that's what all of our training is in. I found there were real limits to that. And I often tell this story is that I read every book, I went to all the seminars, I really wanted to be a good swing teacher. And so people, when they came to me, they got better golf swings or better partying strokes or tripping strokes or whatever we were working on

but then they were not to play golf and They often didn't play better and Honestly, someone come in and they played worse and as a young golf professional. I said well, that's not my fault I don't know what's going on out there and that's the truth. I didn't know what's going on out there. And that's the truth. I didn't know what was going on out there. And out on the golf course, when they went to play golf. So I actually got interested and curious in that.

And so that led me on a journey to learn more than just the technical part of teaching golf. And P&I, we played college golf at the same time at Arizona State and Penn State, but we really didn't start working together till like the mid-90s. Yeah, and before that, what happened was I went to a lot of educations in the US and at that time, usually the only other female younger participants was Lins. We ended up going to the same trainings over and over again. So we became super good colleagues.

And then over time we realized that we, you know, I had my experiences as a player and Len as a teacher, but we both felt that we could do more in golf coaching, golf teaching and we had some similar beliefs about that. We need to look at more of the whole game. We need to look more what actually happens when golf is playing the golf course. And have that as our main filter? Yeah, and it's amazing to me how golf instructors, you know, there's so many golf instructors

from a technical side. I can name, you know, 20 of them right now. But when it comes to the mental side of golf, I feel like Bob Rhotella is the one that has come to mind before I became familiar with you guys and how it doesn't seem to be the same landscape and that there's so many professional players that will go to Bob Rhotella for help on their mental game. And I'm just always curious,

I'm speaking for you guys alone, how you became, and I'm gonna use the phrase experts on the mental side of golf. Where did you learn it from? It's something that so many people are trying to channel, which is an understanding of the mental side of golf, but how did you become experts in that side? The way it came for me as a player, because I had really, really good teachers, but on

use, things were happening on the course where the green didn't show up. So for me, it became first as a search for myself. And then when I started coaching and coaching first, the Swedish players, and I was watching them play on the golf course, and I realized there's so much things happening out there on the golf course that I'm not sure that their teachers back home know about. So I will keep making notes and sending it to them. So that's how it started to be like discovered for me. Just think from what you said to the that they're kind of, we need to realize there are two

sets of golf fundamentals. There are technical fundamentals and then there are the playing fundamentals or the human fundamentals. And we want to go beyond, it's not just about mental, it is about managing your body, managing your mind, managing your emotions on the golf course, but they're like core golf skills that all the great players through the history of time somehow figure out how to do. Yeah, no, and that's, it's's hard to explain it, I guess, is where I would imagine you guys are really have the edge in your profession. But can you explain kind of to the listeners the concept behind Vision 54?

I know we have talked about it some on here and we have talked some with Aria, Jutana, Garn about it, but what the name means and why it is something that people should try to channel. Yeah, so of course 54 is a number and we believe, honestly believe in our heart of hearts that a player will shoot 54 or lower one of these days. We don't know when it's going to happen, but we believe it will happen. We've been fortunate to coach two players who shot 59 on a par 72 course and that's Anacas or in Stammer course and then Russell Knox as well.

But not quite a 54. So it is a number and but for the average golfer including ourselves like we don't believe we can shoot 54, but we can set different numbers for ourselves that we're moving towards excellence. And the most important thing about the number is that we want any golfer to look at their possibilities instead of limitations. So like, what are the possibilities of growth or learning or improving things and that we always look through that lens and that's the most important meaning of the 54 and it's actually when I was Swedish head coach and I was getting frustrated. The many of the youngest sweets had so many excuses while they couldn't be good. So one of the guys I work with is name is Shelley Inhalger. They started thinking like, you know, they all have made birdies on each one of the holes at the home course

or most of them had. So what would ever happen if you do that during the same round? So it started as a way to change the mentality from excuses to go home for something and then it ended up being a brilliant way of thinking for me and then for Lin and me in our company. And I promise I'm not going to make this an entire lesson for just myself, but as I related to what I took away from that is, and it's kind of from some of the other mental books and whatnot that I've read, is about an acceptance of your abilities. And I'm not sure if acceptance is the right word

because for me personally, my best round ever is a 66. I've done it exactly one time, but I'm not saying, I'm trying right now to stand over almost every shot and say, like you are a 66 shooter, like that is you, that is who you are. And while that might not be realistic, I'm way more likely

to shoot 70 on that day than if I stand on that first tee and tell myself like I am a 70 shooter. So why is that? Yeah. Well, first of all, because what is your eclectic score at the course you, you know, have you had 54? I have on one of the courses that we play. So we actually do a challenge every year where you know we have to try to birdie every hole on the course and so we have kind of like a ringer score that we try to get Throughout the year, but yes, I have I have gotten birdies on every hole. Okay, so You've already

Realized your vision 54, but it's be said not in, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, are under your control. Yeah, but what you said, you know, it's so true and it goes to anything. If you're running a hundred meter race, you know, you need to make sure you're looking at something way beyond the finishing line to make sure you're speeding through the finish. So, you know, it's just the concept we need. So when you, you know, feel your 66 shooter, like you said, you're more likely to shoot as low as possible, which is the whole point. So it doesn't mean we're disappointed not shooting 54. It's just a belief inside of myself that I have more possibilities in with that haven't been, you know, come alive yet. Well, before we get too deep on some of these concepts, there's a lot that I do want to cover,

but in an effort of full disclosure of your guys' books, I've only read Be a Player, and that is the book that I've raved about. I hope you've seen a spike in book sales recently. I know a lot of people have reached out asking about it, but I know that's the one that's helped me a bunch, but I want to talk about that, but I first I want to kind of get a full scope of what you guys have written and what the timeline of that is and the reason I'm asking that is I want to know Where this book falls in that timeline and if this is the book that makes the most sense for people to start with right away I know we have a wide range of handicappers

They listen to this show and different books potentially might suit different players I'm wondering if you could kind of give us a full scope of different players. I'm wondering if you could kind of give us a full scope of the materials that are available out there and where this book be a player falls in that timeline. So of course, now be player being the latest one, we have extra emotions into because we feel it's very applicable for any golfer and so much based to on what you can just do while you play on the course. But our first book, it was called, or it still is called, Every Shotmas have a purpose. And it was 2005.

Yeah. It's still selling extremely well. And many, you know, still love that book. And it's the one that I was talking about. And it's probably more philosophical. And Ron Syrick helped us write that one. And he attended our golf schools.

And he just kind of helped us write that one and he attended our golf schools and he just kind of helped us write it from just the perspective of what our philosophy that time is still holds true. It's not so concrete but it's many really enjoyed that book. I guess so. So getting a first feel what we what we believe about the game. what we believe about the game. Yeah, and then we had been researching practice a lot and reading up on the practice science and meeting with researchers who were, you know, Dr. Anders Erickson and others that were researching practice. So our second book is called The Game Before The Game. And it's actually out of print. That's how books can happen. But we just got the rights to it.

So we're going to republish it and update it with some more of the recent practice science. And then our third book is called Play Your Best Golf Now. And that's when we started really trying to, because readers were asking for it. They're like, I can't come to a golf school. So what does that you guys do? So play your best golf now, really distills down into more, you know, the tactics of Vision 54.

And that's where we started outlining what we call the essential playing skills. Yeah, so I'll say, anyone new to it. If you go with the first book or the last book to be a player, you're really, it's like, it's going to be awesome. And if you're interested in no more, you go with the middle books. Yeah, I also will say about 10 years ago, we were one of the first to do it. We developed our own iPhone app and it's all around practice. And boy, we put everything we had into that iPhone app.

So it's a big app with a lot of things. But again, if you're one of these golfers who likes to practice and you know, you need to bring more variability into your practice, then our iPhone app is really awesome. A quick break here to talk about our friends at Rio Mar shoes. I have been looking for excuse to wear these shoes since they came in.

Of course, the COVID crisis makes it a little difficult to fit in. I wore them on a bike ride the other night. I was impressed with how flexible they wore. Loafers can be a bit too stuffy. I know a lot of people have been reaching out since the last ad asking about these shoes and how they're looking for a shoe to wear to and from the golf course. Sneakers might be a little bit too casual and spares and whatnot. They can start smelling really bad really quickly.

These have an odorless, a breathable odorless lining. Their waterproof, the leather's a waterproof. They're a hundred percent handmade and hand stitch in traditional Portuguese fashion. I have been sporting of course blue, but the the waterman, that's my favorite one. They've got customizable bearings on them. They let you swap out styles to change the look of your shoe while you're traveling. Instead of traveling,

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They want to make sure that you are happy with your kicks and they will gladly exchange them for you again. That's Rio Marshews R-I-O-M-A-R-Shews.com. Use promo code N-L-U-15 for 15% off at checkout. Let's get back to today's interview. Well, I do want to dive a bit into some of the specifics on be a player. And again, I'm kind of relating this off of a lot of the questions that I've received. And this part might be a bit long-winded on my part, but it really did hit me right off the bat before you even got into ways to address the issues of the way a golfer thinks or the way I think.

You simply asked the reader, or in my case, I listened to the audiobook, the listener, some questions. And I've gotten a decent amount of coaching in recent months, and I've noticed that pretty much any coach I've talked to has made a lot of their points through asking questions. And I've gotten a decent amount of coaching in recent months, and I've noticed that pretty much any coach I've talked to has made a lot of their points through asking questions. I worked, I actually had a putting session with Brad Fax in this week. And one of the first questions he asked me was,

what was my routine on Puts? And as soon as he asked it, I felt like an idiot because I realized I didn't have a routine. And just that way of getting a point through, and it kind of seemed like the concept was letting the student come to the conclusion on their own. And for me, personally, at least that really worked.

And so when I got to your book, the question, I think it's in chapter one you asked. And I'm paraphrasing the question, but it's very simple. It's, what is your reaction to bad shots? Do you get upset? Do you talk down on yourself? And I specifically remember being in the car

where I was and my eyes just opened very wide as if to say, oh, they are talking about me right now. And it honestly helped, but it changed my outlook on golf and it seems so simple and it's kind of why I feel like I've been hesitant to even dive into the middle side of golf as I felt like everything was gonna be cheering up. Like, hey, be positive and just think positively and you'll be great, but this really,

it seems so simple and I feel kind of silly asking you to explain that thought, but for that specifically, talking about your reaction to bad shots, this is the part that resonated with me. Tha wonder if you can expand on why that has such a profound effect on a player's confidence. Yeah, and that's why it's so cool. We live today when we know so much more about the neuroscience

and all of that, but any human, no matter where you are on the planet and anything we rack to with an emotion, the brain picks up as a stronger memory. So if you go to a movie that is totally engaging and emotional, you remember a lot of things from the know, if you go to a movie that is totally engaging in emotional, you remember a lot of things from the movie. If you go to a movie that is, you're not interested and there's no engagement, you don't even remember today's later what it was about. So it's just a human function that we have. So in golf, we need to be careful because how I read to the shot emotionally decides what the brain picks up as a stronger memory. So we have noticed three years that so many golfers when they hit good shots, they stay more

objective. So all that was good, you know, we're high achievers, so we just have no emotion to it. And then anything that is like on the toe or not pure or whatever we go like Shoot, I didn't want to do that and always some emotion or action. So you might be highly skilled Technically, but your confidence is so low because you're just gonna Easier coming up to shot to remember misses instead of remember hitting good shots. And it's an interesting thing because I think you said it really well because like I used to think you know years ago it was more of a behavior thing old, giraffes, be positive, but it actually has very little to do with your behavior has more to do is Pia just said with the biology and when we understand this whole

neuroscience piece of how are how all of us form memories then it becomes actually a performance skill and We often tell this story, but when Suzanne Patterson first came for coaching She actually attended our golf school like like many professionals. That's their first encounter with us and learning all this. And as she heard this, she like raised her hand and she goes, what do I do? I've never stored anything positive in my entire life. And you know, like she had always thought that like the post-shot reaction was more about etiquette and you know, just being a good person. And she wasn't interested in it. But when she found out, she was tied to her performance and that if she would look at it as a skill and a trainable skill and it would affect her performance, then

she was interested. And that's the one thing I took away from it is just not even the post-shot reactions. It's just in general negative self-talk. And it's amazing how much better I am now at identifying it when I hear it, because I hear other people say it. And honestly, when I'm in a tournament and I hear somebody say, like, oh, I always go right on this whole, I just can't put these greens or blah, blah, blah. I automatically think, like, okay, well, I'm gonna beat that guy.

Because, and I've made a vow to myself now, not to, you can't say things like that. You can't put, you know, people I think want to voice some of their internal thoughts to make them feel better about it, but I think saying some of these things out loud is just programming yourself into thinking, yeah, I do always go right on this whole, or I, yeah, I do stink at putting these greens.

And it's just amazing. Yeah, like I said, just amazing me how much that thing sticks out to me now. Yeah, it's super amazing. And we just did coaching with a very good men's college team a couple of months ago. And they just decided to as a team and Certain words and things that are just going to quit saying because they realize like it's not helping as whatsoever to reach our goals

and So we just need to understand how it actually like Lynn said affects the way we're reacting the way we're talking to ourselves in each other It just affects our performance Yeah, I just have to share, they're collective, like the word that came up with each player had to pick a word they wanted to extract. That if they extracted that word from their self-talk, I could have a big impact on the game and common word was suck.

If they could just extract, you know, I suck out of wherever I suck. Yeah, but you know, even, you know, Ana ca serenstam, she had all kinds of tricks like this from all her great performances, but I remember the final round of the use open at the pine needles, and she was so stressed and she knew she would easily like have doubting self-talk during the round and wondering if she's going to keep her lead and all of that. So she just decided off the bat that she was just going to tell herself, fairway green, fairway green, fairway green, and just say that herself any time

between shots just to make sure her mind doesn't worry about the future. So when you talk to the greatest players, many of them had all kinds of little tools in the back pocket that many golfers don't know about. Yeah, and that's where I've at least, I used to think that I used to base way too much of my attitude on things that happened early in the round. And honestly, now that I say it out loud, it sounds very silly, but I would think a birdie on the first hole means I'm gonna shoot 68 today and a bogey on the first hole means I'm gonna shoot 78.

And we're talking about a variance in two shots, but it would have in my mind a 10 shot swing on how things were gonna go. And something I've talked to a decent amount of pros about is that I can honestly tell a difference even with professionals on how well they can handle things that have already happened to them. And if they're talking about, on the ninth hole, they're talking about a hook that they hit on the second hole, that's probably not a good

mental place to be, and that you have to be able to reset yourself and trust the player that you are into the next shot rather than dwelling on things that recently happened. That's kind of my way of phrasing based on what? Yeah, very good. Can you expand on kind of that, why that has, you know, can have such a negative effect on you if you're letting things hang on for too long? Well, but it is because we can't predict happen.

I mean, it's like every day when we go on the course, we have no idea if it's gonna be a good day, bad day, in between day. We never know, but we know every shot we hit has a possibility of being great. You know, so we need to like realize there's no way we can know just because I made started with three parties, because I started with three paths. It still doesn't tell us anything was going to happen on the next hole. But you need to stack the deck with habits and actions that makes it more likely that you're going to pull it off. And in all getting in that prediction game is usually not good for anyone. It's just one shot to one hole.

And how can I give every shot full respect and full focus no matter what. And to be clear, I'm probably giving off the impression that I'm much better at golf than I am because these are things that I'm still, I like saying them out loud because even after reading the book and I'm on my second listen of it, I struggle with it. I don't, it's not there 100% of the time. So maybe that's, maybe I'll use this for, for some of it self-help right here. So even if I understand these concepts

and I can't help in the middle of around my mind, wandering and wavering, if a student comes to you and says this, I can't help where my mind is going, how would you address that? What would you, what would you say to that player? First, what you just said there, just understanding these concept lens often say, what is it you saying? Well, then understanding these concepts is the booby-prime.

Yeah, I have to do them. And this thing with self-talk, I just want to say, because it's going to keep wandering, because that's what the mind does. I mean, the research says that we have upwards of 70,000 thoughts a day And if you think you're on a golf course for four to five hours Thank you a lot of thoughts and you know they're hanging all over the place They're running to the future the run of the past are running to you know the shopping list You know, I mean they're they're going all over the place and so disability to notice and then come back to being present.

That's often like an overuse term. But we have a player we've been working with for a couple of years. And you know, he's on a journey back to find his game. He's one of Masters. But he had a really good round last week. And instead, the texty sentence is that the best thing that's happened is he noticed his mind wandering and he just came back to being present. And so again, it's a constant thing. It's not like you just arrive at being present. You always have managed that.

And you're managing it mentally and you're managing it emotionally and you're managing it actually physically. Yeah. And what is so important for us, it's been a long journey that for a long time we've known about this concept, but Doesn't help go for so that's why we're making these skills applicable and trainable and scalable because you know if you want to get stronger Fiscally go to the gym and you get to practice But if you want to get better technically you get some less and you get the wheels to do but and you get to practice. If you want to get better technically, you get some less and you get the wheels to do. But when it comes to these, the human skills

of the game, which includes the mental, they need to also be applicable and they need to have exercises how to train them in a golfing environment. So that's why we spend so much time building up a very big library of doable things to do. So golfers go from understanding it to actually taking action on it and getting reps in so it can become a new habit. Well, this next part is maybe the part I'm most excited to talk about because when I have tried to explain this to people, it has gotten the most bizarre looks possible. So I'm hoping you could explain it better than I can, but the concept between the left brain and the right brain functions of a golf swing and what really, really helped me

as I was listening to this was the understanding and the explanation that, um, like literally no human is capable of telling their body exactly what to do. And the more I thought about that, the more I think back to my best rounds of golf, and I can tell you what my swing fields were in that round. But they almost, almost all of those rounds I would describe as some sort of a blackout, where it just felt like I saw the target, and I hit it there, and I didn't really realize it at the time, but I'm playing, I would imagine you would say, I'm playing from the right brain side of my brain.

How would you explain that concept, the relationship between the left brain and how you're trying to tell your body something to do and your right brain and your subconscious? Yeah, I think, you know, Chris, the left brain right brain model has kind of been an old model. It still has validity,

but it used to be, you know, everybody said, oh, when you're in your left brain, you're thinking, and you're, you know, your digital and detail, and that kind of thing. I'm in your right brain, your imaginative, and it's, it's, it's, it's, there's no time, and that kind of thing. And that's still exists. But we now know, I mean, we're in 2020 This can be related to very specific brainwave patterns and we talk about it and people just say this like we talk about that There's really three kind of yeah, this is modes you could be in so if you think about the human brain So you can like think the logical thinking you know, you need to before every shot

You know is 150 hours went right to the left, I want to make a three-quarter backswing, whatever. I mean, so you're thinking, if you measure your brain waves, they have a lot of what they call beta brain waves and they're faster in your brain. But when you step into a golf shot, you're going to be an athlete, you're a performer, no difference if you're a golfer, if you're basketball player, if you musician, if you're surgeon, when you step into performance to be at your best, you need to be done thinking. You step into being in more of a sensory mode, meaning you might still fall flat, you know, might experience a tempo, but you're actually in a sensing modality and you can measure that through the brain waves, they're going to be more what they call alpha once.

And then from there, sometimes we slip into the flow, when we lose track of time, we don't even remember what we did, we're just doing it. It's like, and measure that, and in otherwaves, theta and others. So, the whole point is that the peak performance, and you need to be done thinking, preparing, having a list and step into more of a sensory modality. And that's what we're talking about here. And it's like, it couldn't be research more, or proven more, and it's just gone for sometimes there're stuck in because it's not a rational sport so we step into

shop and you you can't start thinking even more because the ball is just sitting there but it's not good for peak performance. Yeah and I just want to say that that's what makes our sports so challenging but fun is that we have to do that for every shot we go from this thinking cognitive state, which is looking at the numbers and planning the shot, making decision on the club to now we actually have to switch into the sensory. You know, it's like being on the free throw line for every single shot. And as Peter just said, it's not reactionary, but it can be trained. And it's a trained discipline to go from planning to now sensing and being athletic.

And I might be misremembering this, but the part that really resonated with me in that, you know, how it was said at least, incorrectly, if if I'm wrong if I don't remember it, right? Was it, even somebody like Tiger Woods can't from his left brain tell his body exactly what to do? And when he's playing his best golf, he is, that is coming in some way from his subconscious. Well, he can, it's just not very productive. Yeah. I mean, we can always talk to ourselves in state

in a thinking state, but it's just not our best performance state. I mean, being a bit sarcastic, but yeah, I mean, even the best in the world, they, you know, it's sometimes it's more challenging than others to turn that off and get into a deep sensory state. Yeah. And when you talk to them when they play the very best, they always express more three things that experience or that they're just totally in the flow. They're just doing it. They might say I have a swing thought, but when you actually ask them, it's usually always

a feel they have in the swing. And the interesting thing is just bringing up Tiger, you know, just listening to his interviews, if you really listen and he's divulging, and this was years ago in a 60 minutes interview, he was asked what did he like most about competition, and he straight away said, my senses get heightened. So, you know, he feels things deeper, the rhythm is more, and the tempo of the swing is more accessible. You see things clear. That is a very different state than a cognitive thinking state. And one of the, you know, getting into some of the more specific things that you come back to a lot in the book, being balance, tension, tempo, awareness, and tension is something

that I think I've been pretty vocal about in recent months. Specifically, we did a podcast with Brendan Todd a few months ago and he talked about some of the full swing long iron yips he was having and how much of that tied back to tension in the arms. And I realized as he was saying it, I'm like, oh, well, I have too much tension in my arms. But can you walk us through why tension

has such a profound effect on your golf swing? Because I feel like I notice when I have less tension, I am getting maybe five to eight yards more out of every iron. And I couldn't tell you why, and I'm hoping you can help with that. Well, usually when you have less tension, it's easier to have more, you know, speed in your movement.

So, you know, if you're really tightening your arm and move it, you can't move it very fast, but if you relax it, it's going to get a lot more speed. So we always tell golfers, you know, no one can say if you should totally supple and relax to having in between a firmer tension level. But every golfer needs to calibrate and check out especially grip pressure and upper-bottied jaw tension level to hit shots where you're very, very loose and then go from loose to medium to firmer. And you'll see what makes you put better chip better swing better. And of course, very many that realize, like if I just drop it down a notch,

my whole sequence of emotion and everything improves. And when it comes to the attention level, it's so important that you keep it constant through the swing. Because when you change, for example, grip pressure, if you keep changing it during the swing, you change the club face. And we know that's not a very good thing. So it's all related to your technique.

And every golfers tension level changes. And that's why we need to check up on it and be aware of it so we can dial it in and calibrate it from day to day or even due to your arms. Because I might be fine, but some I get to number 14, is it tight drive, and I have some bad memories from the past, suddenly my shoulders tighten up, and then it makes me, you know, not complete my swing and hook it in the trees. So, but it was all based on me not managing my tension level. And that's examples like that.

We see all the time, not on the range, but when we see a golfers on the golf course. Yeah. And I just said, you know, again, we've looked at this, we try to find the research on this and they say, our TM joint, our jaw, there is a very important joint in the body and it has more nerve ratings on it than any other joint. And when that joint gets tight, it moves down the neck to the shoulders to the arms and so forth, it affects even messages to the brain. So we've known for a long time that that upper that jaw tension or the TM joint needs to stay

relaxed. And so we have players now, PA years ago, have players try to hit drivers swinging at 100% tempo with a potato chip in there. Between the teeth and could thank you. You know, keep it not crunchy. But anyways, we talk about this. We had a golf school where this person attending said, well, you know, I'm really close to Jack Nicholas and something he didn't share with many people was this that when he wanted to pull a shot off, like it was really under a pressure situation, he made sure his teeth didn't touch. So it's the same thing. It's like, well, gee, there's Jack Nicholas doing this little human skill that's managing tension during around. Everybody should have availability to that and be able to train to it.

I was just going to tell one other story because you mentioned Brad Faxon earlier. So Brad's come for some coaching. But when he first found out about us, was he was given a copy of be a player. And it was actually when he was doing the broadcast that the women to us open. And he left from doing that work to go play in the British senior. And he got over there. And he texted us, he got a number, he texted us, he said, I'm doing some of these exercises from the book. And one in particular, this has to do more tempo,

but related to tension, because they're like second cousins. She said, you know, I'm making driver swings at like 50% tempo and I'm hitting it farther. And it goes, actually I'm hitting it by some of the guys. It goes, help me. How does this work? So we kind of, we sent back a message about how kinematics sequence gets more optimized and so forth. But you know, he actually had a top 10 there and it's just so darn simple.

But again, it was the part that got me to was the simplicity of it. Like it all just seems like it should be obvious and I find myself though keeping having to refresh myself on some of these things because I'll go play two great rounds kind of with some of these processes and then I'll slip out of that consciousness. And I'm happy to report I was just at Brad's house this week. His book, the book is still sitting there on his shelf. It stuck out to you.

I saw it there. I was like, hey, I hope you read this. That's great. That's exactly the topic I wanted to talk to you guys about. It is working with professionals. And I guarantee it's each individual's different. But in general, if you can describe how the typical mental state you see players in when they begin working with you, are you ever kind of in shock at how I don't want to say mentally weak some players are, but how far some players have to go on the mental side.

Well, you know, the way we realize when we talk to players, they're just, they've never been exposed to it. They're just totally unaware, untrained. So we usually frame it is that this is an extremely fortunate situation because they're already really good. And they have, they're totally untapped in accessing some of these human skills, so the possibilities for the future is enormous.

So usually they're just never, they're working their sewing and they're working the fitness and they're figuring out some many aspects of playing, but they haven't snipped this possibility. And even if we just ask them, just tell us some of the things you do when you play well. And most even professional players, they can't answer beyond saying,

I make pots and my drives are in the far away. Because they have never focused on it. They're not really not since that. Yeah, exactly. So we, but so men, they're like, you know, they are a little surprised, but we quickly want them to realize there's nothing wrong or there's nothing bad. It's just an untipped potential in front of them to be even greater gold first and manage

all the variability of the game. Yeah. Like, when Eric and Gettonacorn came, we were like, hmm, wow, what a ball striker. I mean, she's got so many shots in her bag and she'd never won on the LPGA. And she actually tended the golf school like Suzanne did, as I mentioned earlier, and as many professionals do. And two tournaments later, you know, Shalmas wanted. It was the women's first major, but that year she won five times.

But the interesting thing when you talked to her about it, maybe she did this with you in the near-after podcast, like she had no idea about her post-shop reactions and she had no idea how to stay focused during the swing. So she was already so awesome. So just getting a hold of a little bit better focus and a little bit better managing, you know, her memory box or her directed the shots, you know, made all her brilliance just come alive. Yeah, and that's kind of one of the things that, you know, I think I first heard of Vision 54 through Talking to Area about, we asked her kind of about the smiling that she'll do before shots. And it's not something she does on every shot, but it kind of was heavily featured during the US women's open coming down the stretch. I think we'll even 2016 at at at show Creek, I think, is that right?

Yeah. And that she would, you know, she, her round was spiling away from her. She ended up winning it, but she would be smiling before every shot. And it looked like she was just trying to channel something. So I'm wondering how, I know that that, I would imagine that is not something you are in, you know, teaching to every one of your students, but how you landed on that with her and why that was, you know, something that she had implemented in her process. Yeah.

It was fun. We were earlier that year. We were in San Francisco at Lake Merced for the tournament and we were out with the practice round and I remember we stood on the third hole there at Lake Merced. It's a part three and we said we want you just to try out some things, both her and her sister. And this is what we said, we want you to just imagine this is the last golf shot you'll ever hit, ever. Like this is it done done over. What do you want that to feel like? What is the state you want to be in?

So with area we call our May, she stood there and was like, wow, and she didn't say anything, but all of a sudden this smile came across her face and she stepped in and just hit, I'm in a beautiful golf shot. So it was really this mile came from just imagining, you know, being very grateful for this like opportunity to hit a wonderful golf shot. Yeah. And they started with because she felt like I get this now, I understand the

play box, but you know, I'm just having a hard time sometimes, you know, getting in there, I'm still thinking. So Lynn and I just know we just need something where she's done with the decision making something to make sure tap into really wanting and I just know we just need something where she's done with the decision making, something that makes her tap into really wanting and being excited about the happy about the golf shots instead of being scared and worried, which she had been in the path. And like we said, this was just something that clicked for her, but it was the feeling inside that just makes the I'll happen. Well, we've kind of danced around this and not covered it specifically. I don't believe, but just kind of you mentioned

the memory box. I heard you just mentioned the play box as well, but can you just kind of explain the concept of the think box, the play box, the memory box and what role each of those plays and why that's important to kind of silo out those three different things. Well, because every shot we hit forever has a future. It's like, you know, we need to plan and plan for the shot and think something. And we think box bikes. Every shot has a future. And the main thing is to make sure you make up your mind, you make a decision, you create the go signal. So that's one piece.

And then the play box, when you actually step in and make in the swing. And like we talked about earlier, since golf is not a reactionary sport, what can you do to always step in and be athletic and sensory and focus till the end of the motion? And many have never thought about how can you actually stay focused till the end of the stroke the end of the motion. And many have never thought about how can they actually stay focused to the end of the stroke or end of the swing.

So that's the play box. And then every shot has a pass. It goes somewhere. And what is the smartest way possible to rack to go off-shutter pot to create confidence for the future. So that is what the three boxes are the three steps of any golf shot to you. And just making sure you have the right way

of doing that for you that makes your golf game fun and really great. We also think that there's such opportunity for players to manage themselves between shots, which is actually the majority of time we all spend on the golf course, you know, all that downtime between shots. But many, as we were talking about earlier, it's like they start telling themselves stories or making up stories or narrative. You know, just learning how they can use that valuable time to keep their game going

in the right direction is really important. So all those skills between shots are important to learn. And in the book, you talk a lot about some of the professionals that you work with and you name them by name. What if you're doing a seminar or teaching something, what's a prime example of something that you feel, you've talked about Kevin Stryoman, Russell Knox,

Lorraine Ochoa, what's a good example kind of of some of the mental exercises that you've gone through with specific players? That story about area was exactly what I'm getting at here. I know there's some with Lorraine Ochoa in the 18th hole at the US Open. What are some examples? I know it always helps listeners when they can look at a professional. What a professional is struggling with is kind of say, oh, well, if they're struggling with it, now I feel better about it. Yeah. Well, with Kevin, you know, we've coached him since he was just a journeyman and

playing many tours and then getting his PGA card and so forth and now having a great career as a PGA tour player. But when he first came, we had this conversation. He said, you know, I want to talk to you about something. He said, you know, sometimes I'm like standing over the ball and I'm like, I hear myself say it's going to be a water or I hear myself say, I'm going to three putt. He goes, does anybody else think that way? And we just struggle.

We're like, Kevin, everybody thinks that way. Everybody, Tiger Woods. I mean, every person on the planet thinks that way. So the first thing is just to know we have all these thoughts during the day, you know, and many of the thoughts we have today we have the same ones tomorrow or brains just repeating machines. And when a thought comes in like that, you don't have to believe it. And he just goes, oh, thanks. So then he just did this little, like we helped him with this little turnaround, which was that might pop in. And then he'd say to himself, Kevin,

that's just a thought, that's not true, whereas the target. Oh yeah, and that is like how it started, but one of my favorite things with Kevin too, because he was close to winning, you know, quite a few times and he wouldn't pull it off. His other team, he was like, he would just get way too fast.

The adrenaline pumping, swinging too fast, little tighter and, you know, missing the farways. But when he finally did win in Tampa a couple of years ago, and he called us, he said, I can't wait to tell you guys what happened, because he walked off 17, leading by one. wait, tell you guys what happened because he walked off 17 leading by one, but he had a little conversation with himself because he know I'm so pumped up, I'll get in nervous, Kevin like manages himself and he knows he gets to fast, so he changed his play box focus for 18th hole hitting his driver and he imagined feeling a 30% tempo swing with his driver. And he smoked it. It looked like on TV, like he was swinging at 95%.

But he had finally under pressure learned that he can't do the same as he did early in the round. He needs to realize I'm nervous, I'm pumped up, my adrenaline is flowing, so I need to switch down, feeling like it's low swing to end up being like a normal speed. And those kind of examples, we see all the time where players like, we change, all of this change, we play with people better than ourselves, so type away, I'm close to lowering my handicap, but we need to learn how do I mess up and then learn to have a different focus.

And you're getting kind of into a part of the book that I'm not going to say where I got lost. I just kind of started to panic a little bit. I hadn't really thought about whether I'm going to mess up the acronym, I think, is the adrenaline factor. And was it cortisol that you're talking about or DHEA or how to explain that concept for me? Well, first of all, as humans playing golf, our adrenaline is sometimes way too high and

sometimes we're out in the golf course for so many hours. golfers need to realize when they need to take some deep breath and cough down and when they actually need to do some jumping jacks, because I'm too sluggish. So the adrenaline piece is like huge, and it's so easy to change. But as a golfer, you need to be aware and learn to do that. But then, of course, we know now, too, through all the signs

that different emotional states make us release different hormones. And for example, if you have a lot of negative emotions, a lot of the hormone cortisol gets released, and it just makes the brain not function very well. It makes us make kind of not smart decision, and it makes us not being able to feel our swings. So it's very interesting to realize that the emotional state

I mean can really help you swing better. It can really make it impossible to feel your swings. Yeah. And in our first book, every shot must have a purpose. We have a chapter. Anger makes us stupid. But what we know is just that when we get ourselves into such a negative emotional state

and there's so much cortisol released we actually don't have access to the abilities we need to play good golf. No. Visual acuity, reasoning, coordination, I mean we talk about balance, tempo, intention awareness, that's out the door when we're in high states of cortisol. I mean you just can't access it. You know, in the off-sagoff course, it's the same what happens when people get road rage. It's just like they don't function very well.

So what we know is the interesting thing, the DHA, like you said, an acronym for a much longer word, but then DHA is a hormone, and it's a performance enhancing hormone, and it's such a performance enhancing hormone that it is banned on the PJ tour, LPJ tour, you know, on the Olympics. But we create or we manufacture, if you will, DHA naturally, when we experience positive emotions. So you go, hmm, how can I create a little of that performance enhancing hormone naturally?

Well, it's just experiencing positive emotions. So that's when players like realize that, that it's not just happy thoughts, but it's actually positive emotions and you actually experience those positive emotions, it will have an effect on your brain, on the hormone release, and therefore then access to the things you need to play great golf. Well, you guys, you might have created a bit of a monster here because I'm on the T, I'm on the T and 40 minutes and now that I have your phone number, if things don't go well in the first hole, I'm calling you. So we're doing it. Okay, so, so, so we love it. But you know, before

we won't play Chris, so what is one thing you're gonna Extra attention to today that's under your control Because obviously want to score well and play well, but what is it you're gonna take action on the The the best thing today is not just tension because I think a lot about tension But it's tension throughout the swing you said that and I do even if I'm if I'm thinking about tension I can get tense as I trigger into the downswing So that's something I want to be conscious of and just thinking towards targets and stuff. But well, as we wrap here,

I kind of want to just bring this all full circle because I don't want anyone to walk away from this thinking that some of these concepts don't apply to them. So if you could kind of compare and contrast the things we've talked about here and how they relate to a 20 handicap or a 10, a scratch, a pro, and just kind of,

I don't know if that's a great question, but just kind of reiterating that these are things that kind of apply to all levels of golf, and as well, just kind of other ways that people could be involved with Vision 54 other than just the books. For sure. And the human skills is so cool because we think the future teaching coaching of the game you learn that from the first lesson along with technical skills. So at our golf school, we have higher handicaps with two professionals because this is we're all on the even playing field learning skills. So don't wait.

This is when you learn this and combine it with your technical skills, you're going to be a better player sooner, that's for sure. Of course, we've been super happy with our books, and many like to listen to them or read them, and our iPhone app. We've created many to remote programs through our website, visionfit4.com, because some come and see us in person, but many can. So we're doing all kinds of things to be able to do it totally on your own, or you get some support more remotely, or you come and see us in person. I had an actually, it was a woman the other day who was kind

of new to golf, but she was doing some technical things she had learned, and then she was doing these human skills. And in six months, she's brought her handicap down with 16 shots. That's like phenomenal. And all I can say is I don't think she would have been able to do that if she only focused on the technical. But if you think of it as like, no matter what I'm going to do to get better at this game, I'm going to continue to work on my technical skills and I'm going to continue to work on my technical skills and I'm going

to continue to work on my human skills. Well, thank you guys both Lynn P.S. so much for one the book and for taking the time to walk us through it again. I recommend it's called Be a Player for anyone out there listening and and appreciate all the help and I'm sure listeners will enjoy having learned a lot about the mental side of golf. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. You bet, cheers. Get a right club. Be the right club today. Yes.

Be the club. That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most.