No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 306: Underappreciated Players

Episode Date: April 27, 2020

The names Nicklaus, Palmer, Jones, Snead, Sarazen, Tiger, and Phil all roll off the tongue easily when talking about some of the legends of the game. But who are some of the more underappreciated players in the game, both past and present? We each make our case for three guys, and ultimately decide on five underappreciated players. Some are names you might expect to hear on this list, and some may surprise you. This was a lot of fun. Next up, overappreciated!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. We are striving to get through all of the ideas on our co-vision board for random podcasts. We've always wanted to do, maybe didn't have the time to do in the past, but we don't really have an excuse not to do them now.

Today's episode is underappreciated players. You could say underrated, but we just, we went with the term underappreciated, we talked a little bit about that in the beginning. And let me say, if we're talking about things that are underappreciated, can we have a little conversation about the Calaway golf ball?

And maybe a little pile on the back there for the professional transition there. We wanted to shoot a bunch of content around the golf ball this year We've been a very limited obviously in doing that the only time this was on display was during the chip drive and put Championship we did have the the new 2020 chrome soft golf ball in play Thankfully, Freddie was there to call Neil out as he tried to switch to the ERC soft golf ball for the long drive portion all kneel out as he tried to switch to the ERC soft golf ball for the long drive portion. He's a complete scumbag. He doesn't even need the length, but the ERC soft is a bit longer off the tee.

The rest of us were playing the one ball rule. It was kind of sad to see him go to that desperate of a length to try to win. And if you haven't watched the video, you can tune in to see if that does end up working out for him. It was the biggest controversy of the event. A couple of F-bombs were flying. So we apologize to any of our viewers at home that were offended by anything that Freddie said.

I'm a Chromesoft player. I know Neil uses the Chromesoft decks. A lot of the guys use the Chromesoft decks. I like the Chromesoft. It's a little bit softer. I haven't lined up the new 2020 ball with the previous year's ball. But I feel like it's going further.

I can't say scientifically that it is, but I'm definitely accounting for this golf ball going further, both with the irons and with the driver. And now you can get the triple track on both the chrome soft and the chrome soft X. You can get it in truvis, you can get it yellow, or just plain white. I've actually just used plain white golf ball kind of drifting away from the truvis a little bit and it's been a fine transition. They're made right here in the US at Calaway's Massachusetts golf ball plant. If you're curious, Calaway has a golf ball selector tool that can suggest the right ball for you based on your game, what you're looking for. So at CalawayGolf.com slash custom fitting, you can find out more about the

Chrome's off 2020 and the rest of their golf ball lineup at Calaway golf calm Without any further delay. Let's just roll right into it. We are all together here in the killhouse solid here DJ pie to my left Hello big Randy. Good morning TC morning and young Neil Schuster. Hello the merch star here. We are going to Kind of similar format to the what If Guy podcast that we did, maybe even some of the same guys included in that, but we thought it'd be a good idea to get around a table.

Everybody go home, kind of pick a few guys that are in your mind underappreciated. That can mean underrated. That can mean just in your, I believe in your own heart or mind, you just never really appreciated what this guy did. Once you started uncovering them, we could even argue who, you know, you might think someone's under pressure.

I could be like, how the hell can you say that? I don't know what's gonna happen today. I think you may say that. Okay. Well, we are going. I think there's a big semantics thing up front. Underappreciated and underrated. I feel like there are two very different things

that are supposed to be asked for. Just like are two very different things. What's the process? Just like what if we define what if in our own way? Exactly. You went with junior golfers. I went more for majors. What if they'd want a major? So I think this may be similar. How do you define under appreciated and underrated, DJ?

Well, I don't even know if it's definitions, because I think the definitions are fairly clear, but I skewed much more towards under appreciated, because I think the definitions are fairly clear, but I think that the, I skewed much more towards underappreciated, because I think that's what was on the calendar invite for this podcast. But what does that mean? Yeah, so I think that's I. No, but we all did. Well, no, I think there's a difference between underrated and underappreciated.

That's what we're talking about right now. I know, and that's what I'm trying to get at. But what I'm saying is I leaned more towards the under-appreciated side of those two things, meaning it's more like personality-driven. Exactly, which is more personal how I view it. And like you said up front, Sali, like I don't know that I've ever totally appreciated what this guy did.

I don't know that I've ever given it the internal credit. So I think all my guys are world golf hall of famers. So it's hard to say that they're underrated, but I do think they're deeply underappreciated. That's my point. That's my point. That's great point. I agree with that 100%.

On that note, Tim Finchham, World Golf Hall of Fame. Congrats. Oh, I thought you were gonna say he's on your list. I'm like, that's the fuck, that's a good one actually. I thought about going some weird ways with it. I'm like, you know what, I'm not even gonna talk about this is a golfer, but'm not even gonna talk about this.

This is a golfer, but he's not necessarily professional golfer. He's just underappreciated, guys. Steini, underappreciated. Yeah, there could be some, just in the background, making it all happen. There could be an appendix to this episode. Yeah, underappreciated in the golf business. That would be interesting.

Do you think the worldwide west of the golf businesses? Remind me on, he's just a super producer kind of guy. Yeah, he's like this. He's friends with all the NBA players. He's kind of just Mark McCormick We got started IMG. Oh Okay, well there you have it. It would be my Cormick would be more like a sonny of a caro Character right he's the shoe guy It's all the kids and shoes randy any philosophy things you want to add to this? Mine was very personal, much like DJ it sounds like.

Just careers and context that made me, you know what, this guy has done things much more impressive than I would have ever known or guessed or recognized. Who wants to start us? I'm ready to go. This, this, go ahead, DC. Can I just detonate anybody who, who says Billy Casper or Cat? I think those are the obvious choices here.

I think before we turn on the mics, we said we should all recognize that these are the two most obvious choices, and then you took it to, can I just detonate anybody who picked those people? Cause that's the lowest hanging fruit, right? Honestly, I don't Billy Casper don't know know much about them could someone tell me why that's the obvious choice I had he was number one on my list well let's start there

give me hit me with it literally if you Google if you Google most underrated golfers of all time or under appreciate golfers of all time billy caspers on normal that sounds like a whole choice then but there's probably a reason for that exactly yeah he won a shitload of tournaments. But if Neil's point is like, he, he probably could name the highlights. Yeah, and honestly, I don't know if I could name most of the highlights of Billy Cass.

Well, did anybody else have Billy Cass for the list? No. Chode, who did that? Chode. It's low-hanging fruit, dude. It's very low-hanging fruit for a reason. You think everybody, like, listen,

we don't have to get into it, but if everybody already knew everything about this topic, they wouldn't listen to the fucking podcast. That was the whole point. Be woke, or dude, come on. Yeah, exactly. I liked the tension. DJ, I am.

I am. I am hostile. We were talking about 18 ejections before this. That's kind of a fire on your ass. You have my attention. Okay, well let me start. Real quick, before you start. Real quick, before you start real quick before you start

Are we gonna whittle down like we did with the what-up? What if guys? Well, I think we should I think it's good that I was That was kind of a fun exercise. I was kind of nervous that there was gonna be five Billy Casper's now. I feel like a jackass so So yeah, I think that was we should all have three people right? 15 and I think we tried whittle it down to the top five Take me there. I want more more about Billy Casper. Billy Casper. Seventh in all time, PGA Tour wins behind Tiger and Sneed tied at 82. Jack Nicholas at 73, Hogan at 64, Arnold Palmer at 62, Byron Nelson at 52. Billy Casper 51, PGA Tour wins. It's a lot. It's a lot.

He was one behind Byron Nelson who won 18 times in one year. What's his time for him? That was warm. Well, it was, but it's still 18 minutes. Give me his contemporaries. Put him in a time for that. That's a fantastic question. This is a stat I saw, I believe, on Wikipedia.com,

but I did fact check it, shout out to TC, because you can't just take this stuff at face value. Thank you, dude. Between 1964 and 1970, pay close attention to this stat. Between 1964 and 1970, Billy Casper won 27 times, which during that stretch was two more than Jack Nicholas, and six more than Arnold Palmer and Gary Player combined. Wow.

Shout out to the big three. Let me just break that down for you. 1964, four wins. 1965, four wins. 66, three wins, including the US Open and the Western Open, which was a much bigger deal back then. 67, two wins, 68, six wins. 69, three wins, 74 wins.

Prolific, prolific winner. A couple other stats you may ask. How many majors did he win, Neil? How many majors did he win? Three. He won the 1959 US Open at Wingfoot. He won the 1966 Open at Olympic, which I believe was going to play off against Arnold Palmer. I've heard of him.

And he won the 1970 Masters as well. He played on eight Ryder Cup teams. That's a shitload of Ryder Cup teams. As such, he won, he has the record for most US Ryder Cup points ever won. Wow. And he won the Vardentrophy five times for the lowest scoring average on tour. So listen, TC, if that's a little hanging fruit man,

I apologize, but I learned a lot. I haven't, I had consumed nothing but golf stuff and nobody's ever talking about it. Well, let me ask you this. I think the natural question is why. Great question. I would surmise. Surmise. Surmise.

Slash. Steel from other people's research that it's because everybody was all amped up about the big three. There's only so much room in the consciousness. You know, everybody's, I think there was a bit of a tiger, the cat effect, the black hole effect, where it's just kind of like, man, I've already been watching and reading and listening to everything about Jack and Arnie and Gary Player. Like, I just don't have, I don't have room or interest

for much more beyond that. And was he an interesting cat? He was an interesting cat. I would say converted to the LDS, the Mormon church later in his life. I think he was a bit of a rock and tour before that. And then as TC has pointed out, I had all the kids after that. Many, many, many, many kids. Prolific winner, prolific breeders, well. So I just like to name off a few of these tournaments that he allegedly won uh... allegedly are you casting doubt no i'm just saying i'm not sure these should be

maybe maybe you know maybe there was some inflation on what uh... pg torrent was the uh... the lafayette Open Invitational, the Hesperia Open Invitational, which looks like it was played only five years, the Orange County Open Invitational, which was played five times. He won the WGC Mexico. The Dural Country Clubven Immitational. The Bakers Field Open Immitational, he won one of only two times. That tournament was even put on. Sounds like, listen, you win the... That doesn't sound like a Billy Kasper problem.

Do you think it would be better if he didn't win those tournaments? Wait, I'm just saying. So, wait, is he underappreciated then? Or is he overrated then now? Sounds like the guy was just always looking for a game exactly I think he won a couple colonials he won some big events he won a couple national opens with not a whole lot of variety with his national opens It's not always look for he won on both coast one on both coast wing foot beat up the west coast one at wing forest one at Olympic I don't see any top finishes in Saudi Arabia though.

That's what we know. We're gonna get that. We're gonna get that. We're gonna get that. We'll know if that's how people will find it. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no up the FedEx couple. Oh right. I see. So here you go. All right. Who's the next, Randy? You want to go? I can, yeah, sure.

I can go. DJ, thank you for your submission. You're welcome. I'm glad that we set the tone there. Yeah, no, that's, TCI, I apologize for the hostility. Oh good, man. You know what?

I agree with you, Billy Casper is underappreciated. And this is to say nothing of his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, your, your putting me in a, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his,

his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his first submission, my personal criteria, I tried to pick one person well before my time, one person that kind of coincided with my earlier, a little bit more of my youth, and then one person who is very much current and younger than I am. So I'll start,

actually I'll start with the most current. You think Ricky's underappreciated? Hey, no, we're not hating on him during the quarantine. This person is 25 years old. You guys are gonna get this pretty quick, but we'll keep the game going. Winner of the 2012 Boys Amateur Championship was the low-am at the 2013 British Open before winning the 2013 US amateur. Matthew Fitzpatrick. Right. Matthew Fitzpatrick would be the low-am at the 2014 US Open and would eventually be the top rank amateur in the world in 2013 where he played on the Ryder Cup.

All this as an amateur goes to Northwestern for a semester in 2014 turns pro shortly thereafter. It was only a semester. It was too hard. That's right. That was a great podcast. Why is he underrated? Keep in mind, 25 years old, since 2015 has finished inside, has finished each year inside the official world golf ranking top 50. He won his first pro tournament the 2015

British Masters. He is now won five times on the Euro Tour. He has played in a Ryder Cup, the 2016 Ryder Cup. Has finished tied for seventh at the 2016 Masters. Most recently has made the cut in each of the 2019 majors. But I think this is where things really get interesting. In 2019, he led the Euro Tour in total strokes gained for the season. Ahead of guys such as Sergio and Fleetwood and Rafa Cabrera-Belle, et cetera, et cetera. This was on the strength.

He ranked first in shots gained pudding. Randy, I'm gonna fact check you on the, he was on the Ryder Cup team. I wouldn't say he played. That's a great, that's a great, right. Did he compete in a match? You got one. Well, that's also, did he compete?

Did he compete? Yeah. He was on the team. He earned that spot. So he's, he, in 2019, he led the Euro 2er and Stroke's game, total Stroke's game on the strength of his putter. What I found really weird about this is that same year, 2019, he leads the Euro 2er and Shacht's game putting, but on, in his PGA tour starts, he was 110th in Shacht's game putting. And so something really funky was going on there.

Either he just didn't put well in PGA events. I also just don't know how much, how many Euro Tour events have shots gained. I don't know how reliable their day is. They don't have, I don't think they have shot length I think across the board. But I mentioned that because his PGA tour stats specifically, he was a hundred

and tenth in shots game putting, which based on his Euro tour stats was a real strength. He was in the top 15 in total shots gained on the PGA tour. So if you assuming, you know, he just potted really poorly in his PGA starts, if you correct that to maybe his true talent level that he showed on the Euro tour, He's going from top 15 in total strokes gained on the PGA tour to comfortably in the top 10. All that's to say he's turning into one of the best ball strikers on tour. His Euro scoring average was third just behind Rory and Rom. Again ahead of guys like Fleetwood and Oosthazen and Zander and his starts in Sergio. Since the start of 2018 he's made 40 of 46 cuts on the Euro Tour and 28 of 33 PGA Tour cuts including his last 18 in a row.

I think all of this is he hasn't won on the PGA tour, but I think over the next five years, I look for him to, you know, what does his career look like? I think it includes multiple PGA tour victories. I think he can nap a major under the right circumstances. I think he's just a very underrated, talented world-class young golfer. That was a compelling case. I gotta say, I kind of was almost ready to roll my eyes when I heard it. And I think a lot of that was because I always pictured he's like 33 at this

point because I feel like we've been watching for so long. But. Rainy's been transfixed by him since we watched him in the range at the Heritage one year. I'm totally with you. I think he's so consistent. He's always in play. It's getting the putter hot. Yeah, he's gonna be, he's gonna get plenty of opportunities because he's a top of the manipulator list. He gets a lot of world racking points. I play devil's advocate.

Sure. Hipes pretty heavily. Hicks up the underarm sponsorship. Gets a lot of comparisons to speed, a lot of comparisons. How would you feel if hoveland or wolf got to 25 and they still have a pga tour event well it'd be a little different because i think fits Patrick spent a lot of those years playing on

the year like his primary tour was the year to it's really's really starting 2018, but 2019 was really the first year he'd come over to the PGA tour much more closer to full time. So, but that kind of that's kind of my point, right? Is that he's had, I don't know, four extra years of being a professional golfer because he only did semester in college and we don't have any, we don't have any wins to show for it. Well, we got five year Tour wins, but point taken. I think, you know, I'm just kind of presenting the other side of the way. I like Fitzpatrick.

I like watching him play. Do you think that his game doesn't set up for the peat? Like he doesn't hit it very far. Your duty as an American though, is to point this out. It's to point this out. Listen, in the spirit of debate and discussion. I will go to bat for his Euro Tour record too, because he went back to bat at the Omega European Masters.

At Cron's Cron Cermontana. Let me ask you this. What it somewhat related, but my question is, what do you think of a guy like Tommy Fleetwood? I love the way it's the golf ball, but I think he's slightly, he's probably overrated a little bit. Yeah. I, and again, big fan of Tommy Fleetwoods, but he needs to...

Winning's hard. Easy. Win all you won on that tour. But he seems, my point is, like Tommy Fleetwood seems like a name. It's like, oh yeah, he might win this major. I think my right pushback. But Tommy Fleetwood's four years older, and they have the same amount of European tour wins. His, his, and the same amount of PGA tour.

He showed up in majors more. So I feel like he's gotten more exposure in the biggest moments, though he hasn't won. Whereas I don't think I've seen, I feel like Fitzpatrick has more of a back door, top 10 vibe to me where I'm like, oh, you know what, Bayhili shot, you know, best round on Sunday, but like he teed off at like 8 a.m.

That's, that's very fair. Neil, I'll, I'll posit, uh, how many PGA Tour Wednesdays Monti have? I have no idea. Zero. Really? Yeah. That's wild.

Well, I don't ride for Monti like you guys. You guys just detonated yourselves. That was, that was, that was, uh, no, but I mean, I would, I was an own goal there. But if I asked you, what would you say Monty's profile in the game is? I would have thought he definitely won at least a couple of PGA Torbans. He never won a PGA Torbans. Cool.

Like that is a defining thing about Monty. No PGA Torbans, no majors. It's like, okay, like if you were that good, you would have nabbed one, at least one of those. But how many? How many? But now we're veering into my Ricky, my Ricky takes. So, but he must, majors, he's probably got a million top five and top 10s, but he just, he was in a cashmoney, right?

He just always there. I think that's the one thing with Fitzpatrick that you want to see a little bit more of. He's only got one top 10 in a major. And that's where Flea, I think, separates a little bit. Where he's like, he's not scared to put the big boys on a pretty consistent base.

I think Fitzpatrick does have some limitations as far, and he's gotten demonstrably longer over the last two or three years, I think. But just from a pure distance perspective, he's still gaining strokes by being in the fairway and all that. His iron place really, really, really good, great, great long iron player. But, you know, at some point, he's still at a distinct disadvantage in a lot of these majors where it's more of a distance game. I think if I can sum up your point, Randy, it's also just like, hey, just look out because

I get it, it's still likely could be. For sure. And people have, it's also just like hey, just look out because I get it still likely could be Sure, and people have he's kind of slid off people in a minimally based on my own criteria This was probably the toughest case to make. Yeah, I'm more excited for my next two Well, I thought that was very interesting. Yeah, it was a directional wasn't expecting a quick break here to give a shout out to our friends at Erbil active you are B-A-L-A-C-T-I-V They are of course the CBD provider for all things, no laying up. I gotta give a shout out to the listeners. You guys have been ordering the shit out of this product

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Let's go back to the pod and here is T.C.'s first nomination. I'm gonna go, really Casper. I'm gonna go, Billy Casper. I'm gonna go with a guy. So guy, you guys have never even heard of. I'm gonna go with Lee Trevino. Okay. All right, because I think Trevino rarely does, I don't think-

It's a very similar case to Casper for what it's worth with less wind and more majors. I was gonna, more national opens. Of course. Uh, Trevino, PGA tour rookie at 27 years old. That's crazy. I forgot that. That's why.

Which, so it's after being in the Marines for four years and then being a club pro and just a general hustler. He got tour privileges through qualifying for the US Open and finishing fifth. That's how he made the PGA tour Which so going back to John Peterson and we just he's not one of my underappreciated guys Guantian long beat John Peterson and the masters the one here T and long beat John Peterson and the masters the one here And a lot of other guys. Why are we going back to John Peterson?

Well, I was just looking that up the other day. Peterson was all over. I was I was listening to the Cantley pod yesterday And thinking oh look I beat Cantley all the time and I'm like yeah, but like can Lingguang beat you in the master's dog Anyway, that's not a here no Whoa, what just happened Guys as I was saying Back on top of that here got there in your head, but you were no Back to Peter. They were the penalized the avant-garde Anyway

So did you have to Reno on your list Anyway, so did you have Trevino on your list? I did, yeah. So Trevino, yeah, he gets to US open, top five in 1967, comes back in 68 as essentially a PJ tour rookie and freaking wins, which is sick. Casper won six times that year. Okay, that's cool, man.

They'll be that guy. I'm just kidding. Yeah. Trump shot first, man. I'm gonna stand by ground. Florida is a standard ground state. He, at one point, he held the US Open, British Open, Canadian Open at the same time.

That's, which I think is really cool. First to do that. Yep. Defended his British Open from, he won a Berkdale and defended the next year at Mirfield, which I think those are two like rare air golf courses back to back came from like hardscrable Texas and then beat up the British open. Yeah, that's very good win win player Yeah, and that that went the defended title stop Nicholas won the first two majors that year and he beat Nicholas finished runner-up to him at the at at Murafield. He skipped the masters in 70-71 and 74 kind of writing his prime there. Like

he or a reason. Yeah, he just hated Augusta. He said he would only feel comfortable there if he came into the kitchen or he would only feel truly invited if he was like through the kitchen Yeah, so in 1971. Yeah, he had some takes he won the US open won the British open T13 at the PJ championship. He skipped the masters that year That is an underrated boss move. He would later come to say he regretted it very much and that the masters was a very special place and he got he came He came around on it. So his his first let's see for first eight US opens T 54 fifth win cut T8

Win T4 T4 That sounds like he had some people explain to him his feelings about the masters later in life. No, here's what you actually meant Did it was a dog or a killer? I think it was both. Oh, I think it was from 1968 to 81. He won at least one event every year That's pretty cool. What's the streak? Eight to eight years. Yeah, 68 to 81 1984. He won the PGA at Schoel Creek at the age of 44. Can't imagine that was a place he felt. I was gonna say that was extremely uncomfortable. That comfortable.

He was runner up at the age of 45 in 1985. While he was defending his title that he won at the age of 44. I thought that was pretty impressive too. Just generally, I feel like most, you know, most lists that you look at like the top 10 golfers of all time. He, you know, he's not on there. How many total majors? He won six majors. One of four players to twice win the US Open twice win the Open twice win the PGA. The other three, Jack Tiger and Walter Hagen.

17 and 17 and six and Ryder cups. Which I'm glad that you came with this one T-6. I was afraid that it was going to be like, let your Vino's not underappreciated. Everybody knows who let your Vino is. No, I think I'm not riding for this one again, but it's similar to the Casper thing where it's like, dude, we already Jack and Arnie and Gary player, like we got it,

man, that was like the 60s and 70s. Like we're good. And then I don't know if somebody has their own Watson, but like even Watson is higher regarded than Chavino. It's like super easy to just kind of glance pass. Six major. He won the gold standard. 1980, players champ, over gentle Ben.

Couple other things I found really, really interesting. He won the US Open and then kept going back to playing the New Mexico Open, which I thought was really cool. That's it feels like he's painted to you out there. Your big state opens guy. State, yes, state opens are full. New Mexico and the Mexican Open. Yeah, multiple Mexican Open winner. One of the Texas State open twice back to back years, 65 and 66. So yeah, I don't know.

Leach or Vino, and in the midst of all this, he was struck by lightning. So what have, he could be a what if guy too. It caused a bunch of pack problems for him. What if he, what if he didn't get struck by lightning? When in his life did he get struck by lightning? 1975, 1975. Yeah, it definitely, you know,

like his, he was vibing going up into that. And he's still one plenty after that, but not at the same time. Where did that happen? It was a, he said, only God can hit a one iron. He said afterwards, like, what would you do it any differently?

He said I would hold a one iron up in the air because only God could hit a one iron. He would later say to his regret at that conference. Well, it's really common. He had a lot. People got out on about that one. I mean, different time, man. Yeah, I think it was kind of like,

all right, people need to know that like don't get struck by my thing. I think a little bit of it is, if you think about the guys. It's clear laugh for yourself. The guys that won, I think at least for our generation, the guys who won a Masters way back in the day, then being a part of that ceremonial

first tee shot at Augusta, kind of puts you in a certain category. And if you're not at Augusta, that's so much more FaceTime that you get every single year. And he was a fader. And he couldn't play, he just remarked that golf course was terrible for him And he was his best finish was a t10 so he never really even sniffed a sniff to master He skipped over one important detail His appearance and happy Gilmore of course might have made the movie Do you think in that regard I think he would later come out to regret that

Yes, I think you went to I don't think he realized that the the that was going to be in the middle. I think your point about what the Masters does to raise people's profiles is exceptional. I wonder if like somebody we know in our time who years and years from now, like a guy like Ernie L's, will he be appreciated for what he's done because he never won the green jacket. Be appreciated for what he's done because he you know, he never won that green jacket So because like I think it goes in two ways too There's the guys that play year after year after year and it just gives him that opportunity to like a sandy liel or somebody who Even if you're on the first page of the leaderboard after the first round or you make an eagle on Friday or something like all those little things Just add up in the consciousness and then and then yeah

I think I think in Trevino's case, him being there with Arnie and Jack and player would have been. Yeah. I think with Trevino too is just like, him staring down Jack multiple times in majors and beating him is one thing. And two, it's just like,

feel like he is obviously well known for his personality and his quotes. And it's like the perfect caricature of a Zany golfer. I don't even know if he is actually Zany, but it can overshadow his accomplishments. And it's easy to think of him as just kind of a joke character in the game and not a six-time major winner, 29-time winner and PGA tour.

Five-time led to touring scoring average four average four before he got struck by lightning and he has the only bogey free tournament in PJ tour history Which is you want to live at 74 grade new ones. That's only having once. Yeah, that's so cool He was also the first person to shoot under par and all four rounds of us open Correct well in the Casio world open in Japan. He played internationally too. He's apparently a phenomenal shit-talker too. Oh yeah. That's something.

I want to get him. Sounds like he wasn't scared to anybody. I think though, it's easy, guys. This is the opposite of under-appreciing. We at least need to acknowledge and say out loud. Racking up tour wins and major wins in this time is very different than doing it in today's day and age. The depth of professional golf was not even remotely close.

Yeah, I agree. I don't know what the scale is, but like a six-time major winner, maybe a three-time major winner in today's era, it might be four, I don't know exactly, but Jack Nichols is not having 57 top three finishes in majors that he played in today's day and age. I believe very, very. That's right. I put so much into the top 10s these days, like basically if I'm looking at your Wikipedia page and I see a bunch of yellow on there, you're a dog in my book.

That's a good point. That's a good deal. That's a good deal. Next up. Okay. So, I want at this more as somebody that I personally have maybe under appreciated maybe because I don't particularly like them very much but they deserve some credit. This person's 41 years old has 14 PGA tour wins including a PGA Tour playoff record of five and one.

Five top fives and majors with two major victories. Zach Johnson? No. Oh. 15th on the all-time money list. Two majors? I saw your screen. Two majors.

Includes three wins at Riviera. That's the three in Connecticut Elk to WGC events and two at Augusta. He's older than 41 Boo-Boo Bob Barba Boba boobas 41 Bumble Watson God. I didn't know he's that old bearba. I was close with Elk and I think And I Want to point out that I forgot the WGC won the match play. He beat Kizner, seven and six in the finals.

Like that's like approaching Ames territory. I didn't realize it was that that that might have been a 36 hole final, but I don't think it was. I don't think it was. No, it was in the modern era. It was at Austin. It was 2018. It was a recent. Oh, was it?

I mean, it just vanquished him. Which I've done with a 36 hole final. It was a Reese. Oh, it was? Yeah. I thought it was it. I mean, it just vanquished him. Which, how dumb was that 36 hole fine with? But I want to say this. I think there's two reasons he's underappreciated in my book. One, on his account, he underappreciated the golf ball. It started from that dumb pink volvic and got detonated. Tell me about one of the great own goals of our time.

Own goal. And underappreciated. What's the weight? Yeah, but underappreciated. How much is the amount of the golf of life here. What into the absolute wilderness and then comes back out starts playing title again and and wins rib and two I think I underpreciate because I mean he's a swallow. Right. Like he's hard. He rude against him, but like we were talking about on our like Oscars pod. He's one of those

characters that brings out like visceral, visceral, he makes you feel something. If he's in the movie, I'm watching. Exactly. And when he's on a leaderboard, it's like, oh, Bubba's there. Oh. You know, it's like Newman from Seinfeld.

That's a really, really, really great. And we need more of that in golf. And I think he's underappreciated like when he does his shoulder roll, like, it's nothing triggers me more than the above a shoulder roll after he hit a good shot and he's just walking down the fairway. Or a bad shot.

Or a bad shot just doing this, you know, like probably blaming Ted for something. And, but he brings, the way that he plays the game differently than pretty much everybody else out there. The way he hits the ball, like, obviously there's some criticism of Bob and Gauge, but the way he hits it both ways, the way he's always shaping shots.

Like I watched the 2012 Masters a couple of weeks ago, and it's just like, yes, it's fun to watch. It's like, man, he's just, he's wailing on the ball, he's doing all kinds of stuff. He's, the antics get me all jacked up, like, God, what a shawl though. Like, all, so, I think he's underappreciated. I'm gonna recuse myself from from Baba at large,

but I will interject on his behalf. I don't I wouldn't classify him as a bombing galager. Okay, that's fair. Just because he's long doesn't mean that you're like, yeah, he bombs it, but I don't think he gal just like he's super creative. He's you know down the middle, exceptionally talented off the tee very accurate

and plays the correct shape for but I would I would say T.C. brought this up a few moments ago other than John Peterson you brought up that dude you look for guys that win all over the place a variety of wins but it does not really have that he's got he's got ball parks where he feels really comfortable but I kind of see that as but they're good ball parks they're good ball they're they're they're really good golf courses and I I kind of have respect for someone that's like yeah I'm going I kinda see that as, but they're good ball parks. They're really good golf courses, and I kinda have respect for someone that's like,

yeah, I'm going there, I'm gonna beat this. This is my track, like Riviera, a Traveler's. This is my spot, like I'm gonna win this tournament, Masters, you know, Augusta. I almost think not to pick on the one thing you said, but to the bombing gouge point, I think when you talk about guys who would have been great with old technology, I think he would have been.

Even an awesome, a complete world leader, like even more than he was. Well, sometimes I feel like he gets put in the bomb and gouge. No, I totally know what you mean, why. Because of the outrageous ways he plays like at Rift, he'll take it over these trees and you're just like, oh, that's somehow the whole world is played. You know, and it makes people like get mad at them. And then it also galvanizes kind of like the very casual golf fan, like, oh, look at you, bubble golf, man, he's just wailing on the ball.

And so that's annoying as well. So and then the, you know, all the marketing BS that comes with that, I think leads to him not getting the credit he's due because, you know, he's kind of schnitz. I'd love to see him compete in a British open. Like really compete, really play well, figure it out. That's what pisses me off. His major record honestly sucks.

It's not good. It's not great. But he won two masters. But it's not like he is a horse for course for Augusta even. He has one, a T5 and 18, no other top 10s. His best finish after that is a T12 last year. A T12 was better than T12 though. He looked like he might have a little run

at the end of the win on 15 there. Yeah, it's frustrating. It's like cheating and a gust. I know, it just doesn't. Left hand, left hand. And that's also where the bomb and gouge think, what he did at 13, right? It's people are just like, this is,

you know, I tried to say that out. When he's dialed, like, he also puts it so good. Yeah, like he's really good at golf. So good. Like, I think polter, like we, I personally have thrown a lot of hate towards both Bubba and Polter. Like I would jab at polters, like actual pedigree as a pro. Yeah.

Way sooner than I would Bubba's. Like, oh my god god Bubba's good I think like when we it's hard to do in the moment I know he's kind of Somewhat past is his moment now. He still pops up every now and again, but like I Think for this exercise when we look back on our generation like Bubba's knocking We're the first guys that comes to mind and he probably should be he should have seriously like I mean Oh one other thing I forgot to mention mention, he was part of the golf boys.

He's part of the golf boys for sure. Thank you for bringing that up. But he's finished second, third, fifth, and sixth on the money list. So just, I mean, he's a cash machine too. So like, his major record's not great, but he's had some years where it's just guys on, you know, he's in the top 25 over and over and over again.

So, and for the kind of swing he has and the way he's trying to do hit the ball both ways, it's like, I can see why he lost it with the volving, but it's just really impressive. And I think he's still top of the nomination for like, hey, I'm going to a PGA Tour event. Who should I go watch to go watch about? Yeah.

Like, you don't have to like him, but going and watching him play golf is legitimately very, very fun. His rider cup record is six. What is it now? Three eight and one or something. He likes like, Oh, and four and single thing. Well, do you want to that was an excellent submission. Do you want to skip? You did, you had Trevino as well. Yeah. Okay. Oh, I got. No, let me take someone. So I don't get skipped all day. Oh, okay. Yeah. I, well, I don't have to, I'm gonna start peeing on guys to make sure that I get some in. I think this one might be in somebody else's. I'm gonna take, you might have seen my screen already, but a,

a four time major winner. He's won 22 times on tour. His first win was when he was 20. on 22 times on tour. His first win was when he was 20, and he almost won the Masters at the age of 49. I might have that year wrong. He almost won it when he was really old. How about that? Had it offered a pitch for the top five? He's in the ground.

Had it offered a pitch for the, and he won a tour of a minute at 49. I'll put it that way. Ray Floyd. Yeah. Had it offered a pitch for the Indians coming out of high school, did not know that. Was the manager of a topless band, the ladybirds?

Did not really, I knew there was some strip club kind of vibe with Raymond Floyd. It wasn't sure what the actual story was. Roger said he don't want to open the strip club. It was also the part owner of this bar, Cokes, which I can't quite determine if that was a strip club or not, but it was a cocaine circus. He won his first masters in 76 by eight shots. It was wired a wire. The open was the only thing that kept him from winning the grand slam.

He finished second to Jack there in 1978. He lost and they play off to Fowdo in 1990. If he wins that, there's only nine modern golfers with more majors than him. As it stands now, there's still only 12. And I think he had like a four or five shot lead that on that Sunday and lost that to Fowdo.

And like I said, won a Tour of End at 49 and was 14th in the world at age 50. Just maybe the game's one of the game's biggest alphas. Is Raymond Floyd the original Brooks She wanted to be baseball player one of the baseball player kind of he was a baseball player Might like to you know might like to mix it up and some some topless scenes. I don't know. Sorry his first major was the 69 PGA, but his first master was an H. Shot win that he won wire to wire Wonder how I wonder how he likes his meat-cooked.

I don't know. That was a hot topic in discussion this week. For sure. We need to get back to playing some golf. So I don't have a ton more on him other than like we need to get a podcast with that guy. And I don't know. Four majors is a hell of a lot for somebody that I feel like no one ever talks about other than like off-course stuff.

Other than the Tor like pros like Yelk and every one of this like dude, he was he was the alpha like fascinated by him. When he walked on the range, I mean Brooks, it just seems like physically imposing dude that all the other Tor guys were like, and it wasn't physically imposing though, was he? I thought he was, I think he's a big guy.

He's like, I thought it was a small one. Oh no, he was a unit. He was a unit. Yeah, I think. Six one. That's a good guy. I thought he was a small one. Oh no, he was a unit. He was a unit. I think. Six one. No, you see him on the master's story. He's kind of like, get that. He's always going to get that.

And it was face. I was thought he was shorter for some reason. He just like didn't put up with bullshit. Like there's a story Fred Couples tells on Fairety of like 91 rider cup. Sevy was coffin and Azinger's backswing and then Ray Floyd and Couples played him the next week or the next day. That's gamesmanship, man. And Floyd on the second hole was like,

hey, heard you had a coffee yesterday, you won't be having one today. And Sevy didn't cough like the entire day. We might need to get into some of the gamesmanship stuff. Yeah. The Sevy stuff that you've been uncovering. Oh, it'll be, it's gonna get aired out in the, in the rider couch.

He's actually the ultimate dog. It sounds like, you know. Yeah. Definitely, it'll be, it's gonna get aired out in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the,

in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in appreciated like wow really that happened the guy that won three us opens Hail or one. Hail or one. Yeah, wow guy one three guy one. Do you believe that guy one three us open? That's crazy, but hail American open. He you know 20 PJ tour wins another Under appreciated thing 45 wins on the champion's tour beat up the shape. I was gonna be just five wins on the champion's tour. He beat up the champion. He just absolutely decimated the champion's tour. Um, he kind of invented the champion's tour.

But it was really, I've the three, three us open's is that's a lot, man. Did he win the other majors? He did not. Three majors, three us open's interesting. Uh, wing foot 1974, winning score was plus seven. Uh, many people think right up Randy's out. Many people think it was a direct response to Johnny Miller 63 the year before. Neil, going back, I'll say, I think Trevino and John Taylor, we get it. Trevino invented the champion's tour, I think.

And then and then Haleur, when kind of took the Haleur and Max maximized it. He won the computers and would have won it a lot. Win, Winfoot in 74, Inverness in 79, and Medina at age like 42 or 44 or something. In 1990, so. It's a quick one, but I don't think people talk about the fact that he won 3S, so 3US Open's very much. It's a lot of wisdom.

Was he, but he was at the top of the game for a while, like he was, he was on the Ryder Cup, he was top American. Yeah, yeah, 20 wins, maybe. Great career, but it wasn but wasn't it you stays in situ? No, no, definitely. There's kind of a theme emerging here or at least the last two guys have been, were subjects in Michael Bamberger's Men in Green book. It's great, great core I think. Every time I met and seen Michael Bamberger, I just asked him about Ray Floyd's story. But there are some really good hailer to win stories in there too.

I was gonna say, they're also in that post coming off the Jack dominance into the law of late 70s, 80s. Okay, me, please. This guy, what if I told you, is this a 30 for 30? What if I told you this guy has the same kind of top-level resume as Graham McDowell Keegan Bradley and Gary Woodland Specifically for PGA tour wins including one major band Curtis. It's been cursed

You know, of course everybody knows him for his British open win. I think everybody thinks of that as like the total out of nowhere, pie in the sky, fluke. For my part, I think he's a bit underrated for what he did beyond that and quickly run through this. You know, stellar amateur career was two-time state champion in Ohio. Go golden flashes, right? He went to Kent State where he was a three-time all-american.

Fourth person to win the Ohio amateur, two times in a row. I got through Q-school in 2002, made his PGA tour debut in 2003. I see what Mr. Nicholas is one of those people. Yes. And what was interesting about his British open win in 2003 was the first ever Major he had played it and so wasn't he ranked 396 in the world or something like that? Yeah, so yeah a couple stats

So in that case he's really in Keegan's ballpark right? I was gonna say Curtis was the first person since Francis We met in 1913 to win his first major start and then Keegan joined him with his 2011 PGA championship. As Sully said, he was ranked 396th in the world going into that British open. I got that right. Yeah. I do not have that. Yeah, which is the lowest rank person to win a major since the OWGR started. Well, he grew up like 40 minutes away from where I, and we played his like home course every year in high school golf. Like everyone in Columbus, Ohio was like, holy shit, Ben Curtis might win the,

I know, the champion. Those are the best. The UK British champions, we were calling it. The best moments. Yeah, it had to be a lot of Atlanta guys like that, right? It's kind of local, I don't know, seems like there'd be a lot of good golfers from there that the points there's not a time time pop up on Columbus, Ohio.

No, exactly. Well, no, I think in Atlanta, it was just they're all in the P.J. Tour. They're not like underrated. I guess that's right here, you know, they were all Americans and SEC schools and all that. So the last few things that open championship was 2003. In 2006 2006 he has a monster year on tour. Wins two times, the booze on the classic. And the 84 lumber. I mean, talk about two.

T.C. is going to get you on. Two ginels. You can get on it because neither of those exist. Well, two ginels. Almost massive 84 lumber classic. That rampant inconsistencies with your criteria. In 2000, Billy Casper for events that are early around for five years shout out to the 84 lumber classic In 2008 earns over two and a half million

Makes his way onto the writer cup at Valhalla Beats Lee Westwood and Sunday singles has run around at the PGA championship 2012 so this is nine years past his open championship. He has another big year. He makes 12 cuts on tour. He gets another win, has another runner up, earns over 2.5 million, finishes runner up with the players. And his last win, his fourth win on tour was the Valero Texas Open.

How much money do you make? Do you have that handy? Yeah, so for his career, like I said, four wins, three runner-ups, one major earned just about 14 million in career earnings, has walked away from the PGA tour in part because of family and a desire to be home, be closer, live a different lifestyle. So he's a teaching pro now, and he may, may return once he turns 50

to compete on the Champions Tour. But he's only, he's only, unless they keep Jerry mandering all the, I would say a major winner. He'll probably have a, can we just go ahead and say it, like everyone that's about turn 50? He's gonna wreak havoc on the Champions Tour.

No, what's crazy is he's only like 42. I know. But in eight years, you have no idea. He is gonna wreak havoc. I'll tell you, by the way, there's a champion for criteria who has the most followers. His career reminds me of rich beams.

Sure. A lot. As far as just the profile of one of me, I got hot as a book, one of major, one, I'm not sure I'm sometimes beam one, probably three or four. I think you won four times, I think you're exactly right.

Also, Booz Allen classic. Yeah. Wasn't beam sponsored by 84 lumber, or am I making that out? Not sure. Randy, I am gonna call bullshit on your Ohio Am. Jack Nicholas, never won the Ohio AM. Oh, is that right?

I just ran out of such a failure there. We've got, let's see here, we've got, I think it's past TC. That's a great check there. Joe Bull, one in 1909 and 1910, one again in 1914. You've got Harold Weber, one in 20 and 21, went back to back.

Maurice McCarthy went back to back. Maurice McCarthy went back to back in 37 and 38. Robert Servus went back to back in 39 and 40. Frank Strandahan went back to back in 41 and 42. Palmer went back to back in 53 and 54. That's who I had read. Hold on. Are any of these guys you're underappreciated guys?

John Cook went back to back in 78 and 79. And then the last guy to go back to back, Curtis 99, 2000 and then the last guy, actually there's two guys since Curtis that have gone back to back. One of them's on the PGA tour, Canadian. Very born in Canada. Frank Strandahan.

I guarantee named him in the first place. Currently on the PGA at the last. Jason Cocrack. Really? Yeah. Xavier. Xavier guy. X Xavier.

Andrew Dorn went back to back in 13 and 14. I think it's once your Xavier, always Xavier. For sure. So, anyway. Ben Curtis, thanks. I think, you know, thanks for writing that wrong. Yeah. Very underappreciated.

Yeah. So, next time you think of Ben Curtis, he was much more than the open championship. All right, I can go a lot of different directions here. Got three options. You know, I was thinking, How many did you prepare? The whole point is it's wittling it down to.

Yeah, no, I'm just gonna piss on some guys. We've got, so what do you go with? Do you go with longevity? Do you go with the flame that burns the brightest? Twice is bright half as long. Exactly. So longevity, maybe you go with Dustin Johnson. If he's the greatest player of all time, but people don't recognize him as such, is he necessarily underappreciated? I think so. I had DJ as a potential nominee. He's both underrated and overrated. I was gonna say, I'm ready for that, those guys.

I think he really is both. It was hard for me to submit him for this one. I looked hard at David DuVal in that flame that burns the brightest. Pluckiness, Zach know, Zach Johnson. Two-time major winner, I hate his guts, but, you know, like I have all people probably under appreciate him. And then, you know, I'm kind of torn between

Wicecoff and VJ. I did anybody have either of those guys. I almost had Wicecoff. He was convinced of the whole tour. Yeah. Let me read the 1976 money list here. Let's see some of these guys. I almost had Wicecoff. You missed something on the whole tour. Yeah. Let me read the 1976 money list here. Let's see some of these guys. I almost had Wicecoff, but digging in,

the record wasn't quite as impressive as I remember. Well, I have a Wicecoff take. Wicecoff won his first. You need to submit. Who you're going to be sure you're going to win. Yeah, this is graceful. VJ is my guy. All right.

But I have a Wicecoff. He won it before we get there. A lot more than Wicecoff. Wicecoff won his first major at the age of 31. His only major at the age of 31. Do you know who's 31 right now? Ricky. That's just staring at all of them.

Right. I mean, WiceCoff and Ricky have pretty much the exact same career arc. So that's all I'm saying is Wyce Coff maybe. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. Okay, that's all I'm saying. Wype might be the, let's move on to VJ.

Anyway, VJ, total madness. This is subjective. I just don't think he gets the credit he deserves. I'm here for this. We'll agree. You know, I think he's a terrible putter. He's not a great chipper, but like he's- He puts with a glove on now.

Yeah, he's like he's done so many different things. It's crazy. On that front, but he's just such a like he just, he just hits greens, hits the wall close. It's wild. I will never forget 2014 memorial. He's teaming off in a practice round on the 15th hole. And some dude in the crowd is trying to give him a lesson. And VJ listens.

And the guy gives him a card. He stood there and talked to the guy for like three minutes. He's the ultimate tinkerer. He was listening to a fan like in shorts in the crowd. Give him a lesson. And the guy gives him a card as I'm like, call me and we'll talk about this. It wasn't that the guy was trying to give him a lesson

is that BJ listened. I think left-handed BJ might be the most underrated golfer. This is a scratch, right? Yeah, supposedly. But yeah, BJ, I don't know. I just, I go back to A that 2004 season was incredible. He won eight times, even before that. He won the 0-3, five goals.

That was on the shelf for a lot of it though. He won the Byron Nelson in 0-3, he won the John Deere in 0-3, and then he won Disney in 0-3, and then he won Pebble Houston, New Orleans, the UIC Open, which was the one that wore, wore with Hills. He's got more than 30 something, I think.

34 PGA too, everyone. So, UIC Open at Warwick Hills, PGA that year, which that was news to me. I didn't know that he won the O4PGA. I don't remember that tournament happening. It was all precursor to the bunker. Yeah. You won the 04 Deutsch bank. You know who was in that playoff with him at the 04 PGA?

I do. To Marco. And Justin Leonard. You won the 04 Deutsch bank beat Adam Scott and the cat. You got to remember, this is like, it's the Hated. It's the Hated. Yeah. He won the Belkinadian Open in 04. You got to remember, this is like, it's the Hadeh. The Hadeh. The Hadeh. Yeah.

He won the Belkin Indian Open in 04, anyone in the 84 Lumber classic, which, which was held seven times. Oh, I think. I'll add. And then he won the Chrysler championship in October on Halloween of 04. And then he starts off in 05 and he wins the Sony, just coming right out of the gates, firing again. So, yeah, I'm just blown away

by the guys career. He's got longevity. He refuses to play the Champions Tour, which is really, really cool. And then how old is he now? 55? I think he is. 57. He's 57. Wow. Love his nickname. The big Fijian. Big Fijian. He's the entire time. He is demonized and antagonized. Tor HQ. He crowned him, though, settling that lawsuit. Yeah, which they were going to have to open their books, which would have been the ultimate sweepstakes. A couple other things I want to point out.

He won the Taiwan Open, the Malaysian Open, South African Open, the Korean Open, the German open by 11 strokes, which interestingly enough, the German open doesn't exist anymore. How does a national open not exist anymore? I didn't have enough tests for people to be allowed on German golf course. South African open, Scandinavian masters. He won the original King Hassan trophy before it was the trophy his son too

So the that's why the change in more Essentially, yes, wow what I was liked is late in his career. He rode hard for Alan Stanford and Stanford financial after the Ponzi scheme stuff He still have he still had the logo for a long time because we're like yeah, you should get rid of that He's like, dude, we're so much more like fuck you like and say That's a pretty serious list of national open. Yeah. I mean, I think the shark might be up there. It's pretty impressive. He's a conqueror.

Can you tell the story about, uh, Zach Blair and VJ on the range? Yeah. Uh, Colonial one year, this might have been Zach's rookie year, or probably second year because he had made the playoffs and stuff. So Zach's out there at the back of the range at Colonial. Just practicing, I think this was early in the week. He gets out there, VJ had gone and I think was working on his chipping or when he got a water or something like that.

Comes back out and Zach is practicing in his spot. There's like one spot that's in the shade. The whole rest of it is just getting beat by the sun. And VJ says, Zach, you took my spot man, it says V there. You made a V with the divot pattern. And they were patterned. Unmistakably, VJ is spot. And Zach goes, nah man, it says Zina.

And keep in mind, I want the size difference between VJ and Zach. That's the thing about Zach. Yeah, he's always been cool. Ever since I did that, he's super cool to me. He likes it when you punch him on the face. Exactly. But VJ is an absolute unit. Oh, huge.

No, check it out, dude. It says Zina. Yeah. So, anyway, VJ's saying. Good pick, very well done. That's a says Z now. Yeah, so anyway, VJ saying. Very well done. Very well done. That's a good one. All right, I'm going modern times again.

Someone in my last one. Someone that maybe not doesn't get their respect due to just kind of personal feelings. But this person, a man born in South Africa but grew up in England. Justin Rose. Yes. 39 years old. Ooses all the pomp and prim of an English golfer.

10 PGA tour wins, 11 year tour wins, seventh on the all time money list, which surprised me. That's... God, there's such a... That's just recency. But still, there's an argument there. There's an argument here 10 wins and seventh all time True sucks. No, well, it's 21 with the Euro tour, but I would say the money list is only counting one Okay, but it's hard to make the argument that it's you make the argument at a Trevino like has to be that golf

Wasn't as competitive back then totally so then to come around and say well, you know Recently bias on the money. Yes the money is but it's also kind of a showing how much I Guess stronger the field is well so here to Justin Rose is so so so so good and under appreciated. I totally agree I he's not my thing. We've is well-worn territory on this podcast But Dustin Johnson has two wins for every one of his in the same era.

What is it DJ? 24-20. DJs. How much younger? Well, you just flippantly throughout, Rose is so underappreciated. I'd like for you to build your case, counselor, because I just mean he's always there.

He doesn't miss a lot of cuts. Let me finish. He's got a major win. He has 16 top tens and majors, including 10 top five, which to me is impressive. Kind of going back to what we're saying about Fitzpatrick and Fleetwood. A dude that is not scared to be there on Sunday in the biggest moments. And he's done it consistently for the last decade. Has he contended to a lot of those? I remember contending to a lot of masters, but I don't really remember him

being in the thick of some playoff concerned you. I think that counts as content. I would also say that Rose. That was the masters. I remember when I was young, when he was in amateur in the open, and he was the next big thing for English golf. And when you look at the way they treat,

like Andy Murray in tennis, like there's so much pressure that goes along with being like the chosen one in English sports. And he turns pro young. And I don't want to say struggles, but struggles to live up to struggles. Well, I think it's every cut for a short struggle. But then I guess I'm talking about like longevity wise, but definitely struggles to live for a short struggle. But then I guess I'm talking about longevity wise, but definitely struggles to live up to the expectation. But then I would say, kinda has, right? And so I think it's underappreciated,

dude had that much on his shoulders and he's still, he has created a career and he's only 39. So I would say with that golf swing, and just general skill set, I think he's under it, achieved in my opinion. Fair enough. I think you're on the appreciate. Yeah, I don't think he's under it.

I don't know if anybody under appreciates him right now. Like I don't know who under it. I think what you're going for is like, I think we can speak for most of the people at this table. He doesn't make you feel anything. So like you just, you don't have. That weighs the outside of the glasses over here. Yeah, it just like he doesn't, honestly,

if he didn't play for two years, how long would it take for us to notice? Like if nobody mentioned it, like nobody say a word, and he didn't play golf two years a bit. Oh yeah, I forgot about you. What happened to Justin Rose? Yeah, I just think that because of the fact that he doesn't make me feel much,

I under appreciate how strong he is and how consistent he is. That's why if it's my criteria. Listen, I can't tell you your personal opinions wrong. Sure, but you think he's over it. But it's wrong. No, I just think, no, no, I just think my opinion of him is different. And that's fine. But do you think he's properly, I think he's very properly over it. I think he's very properly appreciated. I think he's a rich man, Jimmy Walker. Jimmy Walker has a jack reader. Has one major six wins, add some more top 10s in majors and a few Euro toward wins. I will say nobody rides harder for Jimmy Walker than me, but a lot of his wins are like fries and Sony and Justin Rose did win.

Who chose not good events where it's Justin Rose's are like fries and Sony and Justin Rose did win. Who chose not good events where it's Justin Rose's are like WGC. Does win the Coral, like the Coral, and the Gold Medal. Well, I won the Coral, I won the Gold Medal. On the Gold Medal. If we want to talk about big boy WGC wins, we need to talk about DJ. I just want to say, hold on. For sure.

Underappreciated in the fact that when you carry the hopes of a nation on your shoulders, there's a lot of pressure involved with that. Again, Jimmy Walker carried the hopes of Texas on your shoulders. Get out of here with that. In the astronomy community. Exactly. Maybe the hopes of a astrology. I believe it's astrology.

Maybe the entire galaxy is resting on it's shoulders. So that would be sick of you. Maybe you can do it in multiple universes. Who could be sick of take a deep into astrology? Isn't it? Astrology's like the reading the sign. Okay, never mind. All right, we ready for the next one?

Ready. This guy, I'm so glad I got, I can't believe this got to me. I thought this was gonna get taken. He was the first player to add a third wedge to his bag. He was one of the first players to use a sports psychologist. Phil, one of the first to emphasize physical fitness for game improvement. Gary Player? No, actually, I don't know. This is on this guy's wiki, but Gary Player definitely

did that. Late in his career underwent laser eye surgery due to his partial blindness. Tom Kite. How many tour wins do you think Tom Kite has? Okay, I have no idea. I'm gonna guess 16. I think he gets out of 16. I was 20, was it never that I had him on mine? 19 time tour winner. He won the 92 US Open at Pebble Beach in Whipping Winds. The scoring average that day was 77. He shot a 72 Monty got in the house at something I forget and and Kite was going out to the back nine and like 35 mile in our wins And it was like well Monty might have this and he went out and shot even on the back nine in absolutely whipping wins

A sick moment from that tournament Gil Morgan at one point was 12 under park. Dr. Gilmore. I doctor in his own right and One point was 12 under Paul. Doctor Gilmore. And I doctor in his own right. And he was at 1.12 under and finished at plus five. And he shot 81 in the last round. Whoa. He's Tom Kites been 175 weeks in the top 10, played on seven Ryder Cup teams.

He made the cut at the 72, 82, 92, and 2000 US opens at Pebble. Had a master's run from 75 to 86 that included T10, T5, cut at the 72, 82, 92, and 2000 US opens at Pebble. Had a masters run from 75 to 86 that included T10, T5, T3, T18, 5th, T6, T5, T5, T2, T6, cut T2. He finished high for second to Jack in 86. 12 top 10s at Augusta, including three runner-ups. Johnny Miller called him the greatest short iron player that ever lived. He's a Hall of Famer, but I legitimately never hear

anyone ever talk about him. Watching the 86 masters, the replay that was on the other day, I just didn't realize it at the time. I kind of always pictured him in the Corey Pave and Bucket of like faking it around, amazing short game and chipping and putting. Dude was a flusher and he just goes into the like that's that group of guys that I would have never really if I would have passed by and not fully appreciated the talent and

depth in their games. Supposedly he was just a complete range rat just bang ball after ball after ball after ball. And the reason why he's so underappreciated, it is hard to look that unintimidating and be fully appreciated. That's what I struggle with. When I was a kid, kind of like learning the history of the game,

whatever, it was like I had room in my brain for like one thing about each guy. I was like, okay, Tom Kite, he's the guy who looks like the guy from Indiana Jones, he gets his face melted, got it. Next, who's up next? Ben Crenshaw. Okay, one of the masters. Okay, next. So that's a good one. I fully support that. He was first to like five million, first to six million, first to seven. He was the career money winner for a considerable time. I would also say, an underrated thing for Tom Kite

with me is I got him confused with Tom Watson because of the ram, the ram hat, and the name Tom, I just could never, I was like, wait is that Watson or is that kite when I was growing up? And I wish Ram. Can we talk about the Ram way? Yeah, so I have an affinity for kite as well because I played a Ram 55 degree wedge.

I hit the grooves off of it from like third grade through pretty much college. And it was like a hand me down club. I don't know where I got it. And it was this awesome. Brand out. He could hit everything from 110 to 60. It was the only wedge I had in the bag for.

It's not like he should have three. Yeah, I probably should have. But I just, I've always had, like, I wish Ram would come back and we would put it that way. Love their hats. Like you watched the 1980 or 82, I guess, masters and Watson's just rocking the massive flat build, fitted Ram.

And is it Ram? Ram is getting a lot of run of this. No, this is a question I had watching that. Is it Ram, like Carl, like Trucks? No, but that's what I was gonna say. It's like, to all that, this is a question I had watching that. Is it Ram like car, like trucks? No, but that's what I was gonna say. It's like, to all that, never mind me, I was like the pickup trucks. How many free ads you guys want to give out here?

Well, they don't, do they exist anymore? Ram golf? Yeah. Yeah, so that's not a free ad. They turn into random access memory. They're in all the computers. Yeah, they're still around. They're still around, really?

Well, now they're gonna be thriving after Niels just giving them all this run. Listen, I got that military flyover that's happening right now is Calaway coming through your arms. No, I've got, it's a little nostalgic with Ram, that's all. I wouldn't advocate anybody go out by anything, really.

To Kite, Broca, so he was co-metalist at the NCAA championship in 1972 with Ben Crenshaw. Crenshaw won, who's solo metalist, 71 and 73, and then Crenshaw, and they were both teammates. That same year, he made the cut at the US Open of Pem. Austin. No metalist, who won the, did they not play it off? I guess not, right now.

And, but, you know what the crazy part is? They had co-metalist and, what's they both Austin guys do? guys to believe I know he lives in Austin Oh actually they did win. Yeah, they beat maybe Texas Texas speed Houston two years in a row so Good stuff anything else. That's it. All right. I think this one again. It's it's probably fairly obvious, but As we're throwing out honorable mentions. I did want to give a mention to Charles Hall of the Third, making $1.2 million on tour for 19 seasons in a row.

It's pretty good. Pretty good to even just stay healthy for 19 seasons in a row, let alone keep your card. All right, this, my last guy, 25 PJ Tour of Winds, two majors. I need a little more than that. Well, you'll get it on the next one. But from 1974 to 1976, he won 15 times. Johnny Miller. John Miller.

How many times? 15. From 1974 to 1976. Jesus. Is that any good or no? And I think this is kinda, granted it. He shot 63 in the fire on it. He did shoot 63.

Neil, we're gonna get there. We couldn't put. For sure, but he didn't need to because he hit it so fast. Johnny might have been the original VJ. He might have it. My thesis here is if we're going back to under-appreciated, I think I've made this point on the podcast a couple times, but I think him being a broadcaster for so long

is how most of our generation knows him, and he's become kind of a meme as far as choking and nerves and all that stuff. 63 at Oakmont. 63 at Oakmont. I think that all that stuff has become such a bit almost that people forget how freaking good he was and how dominant he was and also good of an answer he was and how good of an

answer he was. I think that's I think that's exactly right. So yeah I mentioned 15 times from 74 to 76. Eight of them were in 1974 and won eight times and then after the 76 open didn't win again until 1980. He won another three or four times after that. That was about it. Finished top 10 at the open five years in a row. Pretty good, including a win in 1976. At Berkdale, I didn't realize this. Maybe this is like very obvious, but Berkdale,

he beat Jack and Sevy by six shots. Sevy was 19. He was a 54-hole leader by two. It lost by six. Not only that, he, Sevy played his last six holes and 500 to finish six back. Why was he like? Whoa.

You're talking about Steve, Steve Polestero? Steve Polestero. Sorry. That was the summer that it was like mega burned out, right? I think so. It was, I believe. We got like turnberries the next year, I think, is. Turnberry was where it was.

It was the dual in the sun. Right, yeah. It's 77. I think 76 was pretty, pretty friatic. I think 76, like they were in a big drought. Yeah, the big, like a couple of years ago, when we were in Scotland. The big dust clouds puffing up when the ball hits the ball Patrick Boyd always talks about that. Yeah, man Of course, his other

Johnny's other major victory 1973 at Oakmont his famous his famous 63 and the final round. Thank you for asking Randy Have you guys ever heard the yardage book story from from that? I don't think so. I had never heard this. He from that. I don't think so. I had never heard this. He went out Saturday. So he's, and I believe you was paired with Arnold Palmer at Oakmont. Arnie's army is just, it's a complete strong old. Thank you. Thank you, Arnie. We are your army. It's just Fort Bragg for Arnie's army. They're just all over the place. So he's playing against him. He's in the hunt.

He's right there. Realizes as he's going to the first tee, he can't find his yardage book anywhere. Like anywhere, searches everywhere. Every single pocket of his bag, every pocket of his pants can't find it anywhere. Doesn't have it. His wife has to drive, he tees off.

His wife has to drive 40 miles each way back to the rental house to get his yardage book because he's freaking out because he's like, dude, I don't think he said dude, but he's like, he's like, oh, you can hit such, you can hit perfect iron shots, but if you're 20 feet above the hole, like you're going to make bogey. And without the yardage book, like, all my notes are in there, all my spots, and like, where to miss all this stuff. So by the time his wife got back, he was five over through seven. Which gives him the yard book.

He like gets it in the house, shoots like 76 or something. So that's why he was so far back. He was six back going into the final round, shoots 63 in the final round. Great trivia, but literally shoots 63. how many other players broke par that day? One four four players broke par meanwhile he shoots 63 He hit every green his average birdie putt length was 12 feet He also I was gonna say 63 might have been the worst thing. He also lived out on 17 and 18

He's coming in your pots? Any three-potted from 12 feet on number eight. Ha ha. Could have... This quote literally been 6, 159 or 60. Wow. I didn't know that about like that. That gives me a whole new appreciation for.

There's a quote from Golf Magazine in 2010, where Johnny's talking about his peak period in the 1970s and he says, when I won in Tucson by nine shots in 75, I would say the average iron shot I hit that week was no more than two feet offline. It was unbelievable. When I was at my peak, I would go into streaks where I felt that I could knock down the pen

from anywhere with my irons. I played some golf that I think is unequaled. That's great. Sounds like ridiculous hyperbole, but it might be completely true. Which I love a professional that will say that. Like, and you know, there's a lot of great players out there. No, like, fuck that. Like, give me that.

I want somebody, like, I tried it as best I can on interviews, like brag about yourself. I want people, like, show some confidence. Can't lay, I thought was really good at that. Just like, yeah, I saw that I was better than a lot of PGA tour players when I was 20 years old. That's sweet. Say things like that. We know you think it. Say he was encouraged. He was encouraged by C and JT and Speed play well because he's like, I know all of these

guys peer. Same with John Peterson. Exactly. So that's what I got for, those are my three. I'm just on a polygetic homeer for Johnny Miller. That's what I'm talking about. I'm Johnny Miller and I don't think he gets the credit to deserve for his goal. Some of the stories from Andy Martinez, two of like, yeah man, he would hit, you would hit at least one stick like every other day.

Well there's that, there's all, and a lot of it just feels like it's turned into like tall tales now when you get anybody talking about them, but measuring like making Andy Martinez measure all the stuff in half yardages. Like is it 176 and a half or is it 176? Like, what is it? Like that kind of stuff is just, I mean, he was, to say he was dialed would be an understanding. That was how I thought there was a couple hours out of Belly Neal and I wanted to.

Exactly. Exactly. That was, thank you. You were very welcome. That was very nice. Ever last at the 63, man, it's literally the best route of all time. OK, my last submission is one I'm kind of excited about.

This was a good learning process for me. Everything I'm about to tell you is totally true. It's totally true. It's your face that true event. It happens in a four year span, roughly a four year span. This person wins 12 times on the PGA tour. They win the open championship at St. Andrews by five shots. They make 15 total starts and majors. They do not miss a cut. They have seven top tens, They do not miss a cut. They have seven top 10s, FALDA, a runner up at the Masters,

and also the Open Championship. They play in two rider cups. Sorry, wins one major in this time. Yeah. They play in two rider cups, both winning efforts. They compile an eight, one, and two record in those rider cups. The only two, this personal lever playing.

Any guesses? I'm like totally at a loss for the time period. Yeah, trying to think who Johnny Miller said it was the second most popular player on tour after Arnold Palmer. Is it Sevy? Who else won it? It's in Andrews. Their British Open victory was in 1964 at St. Andrews, like I said. They defeated Jack Nicholas by five shots.

Tony Jacqueline? No, he was South African, right? He said he's not playing Ryder Cobs. This person used Arnold Palmer's regular caddy, guy named Tip Anderson, as Palmer wasn't competing that year. Before the open championship at St. Andrews, he played only nine practice holes before the competition began.

Was the 54-hole leader and was quoted by Sports Illustrated as saying, look, do you want to know what I really feel about St. Andrews? I feel like I'm back visiting an old grandmother. She's crotchety and eccentric, but also elegant. And anyone who doesn't fall in love with her has no imagination. The 68 I shot today was one of the finest rounds of golf I've ever shot. But I still don't feel confident. This is the most challenging golf course I've ever been on.

You don't dare go to sleep one moment. And to finish second won't mean a thing. In the year 2064, when people pick up that record book, this is the kind of championship they will look up. You'll be remembered only if you win. Did you give the nationality yet? He's American. You asked American. You asked American. Gosh. The only playing two rider cups is what's really triggering me. I'm pretty stoked, but you got me. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me, I'll give you some more facts. I won't give you what. Keep going. Keep going. He grew up in Oakland. His family was hard-scrabble. He grew up on welfare. Learned the game from a multitude of different people. Not Kevin Vincere. Enlisted in the Army, not Kevin Vincere. Enlisted in the Army at age 17, went to Korea before coming home in 1955, where he got a job

at a San Francisco golf course and turned professional. The way he got out on tour was he was sponsored by Eddie Lowry. You might remember, was Francis Wee met Cadi of the 1913 US open Michael Aurey This guy made his PGA tour debut in 1958 But did not do anything really scuffled until a breakthrough win in 1962 October of 1962 and that's when Carey Mokoff and over that note not Carey Mokoff And that's the four year span between October 1962

and May of 1966 is when he won 12 times on tour when the British opened, played in two rider cups. I can say, definitely, this guy's underappreciated because I... So, keep going. I don't want you to give me this. I want you to keep giving this. I'm about at the end of my research.

I mean, we'll come to the culmination in the match. Who's the other guy you played with? Is Eddie Lowry had his hands all over that? It was all Bay Area stuff. Eddie Lowry was like, he became very wealthy and yeah, sponsored a lot of golfers and was very involved. So the big thing is after May of 1966, I mean, I guess I just got to say it. He died.

He died in a plane crash in 1966. Tony Lima. Tony Lima. Anthony Tony Lima. Mr. Champagne. Champagne Tony. Champagne Tony. God.

This guy. I really don't know it. I'm not sure that is. I'm really. Iagne Tony. God. This guy. I really don't know it. I'm really I exceptional. No, like I did not know he was American. I did either. I thought he was like South America. Yeah. Yeah. He had just competed at the Firestone in Akron in excuse me in July of 1966 when he chartered a plane back to Chicago with his wife and two other people. the plane ran out of gas and crashed, killing all of them. He was 32 years old when he died.

And like I said, the previous four years of his PGA tour were exceptional. He was, you know, you could say, and he lived, he would have built on that success for sure. Wow. Excellent one there. Holy smokes. Holy shit. I'm glad. Yeah, that success for sure. Wow. Excellent one there. Holy smokes. Holy shit.

I'm glad I was really good. That's a great show right now. You redeemed yourself from Fitzpatrick. Man, yeah, that makes me want to take a total deep dive. He also, back to back, Mexican open winner. So he's got the National Open Sun as resume. There you go. Which is cool.

She's, you can call off the dogs. That's what I'm saying. of Rosemar. There you go. So he's just cool. He's easy to call off the dogs. Oh, that's a really good one. Anything else to add? Pain Stewart parallels. How'd you come up with them? Like, how did you get on the scent here? I was, it was Masters week going back through old Masters, trying to pick one to win.

I saw he was running around, and I was like, I know who is Tony Lima. And so I, same thing like, oh shit, like he died. But like, I had no idea. Played all five matches at the 63 Rettercut, went 302. And then 60. He must have gone 5 and 0 in the next one, then, which that time period is those records. 5 and 5 and 1. I think they played an extra. He went 5 and 1 in the singles.

They played like morning singles in afternoons. That's kind of sweet. All right, TC, who are your next six guys? Good stuff. Yeah, I'm exhausted after that one. No, I mean, I was just going to say dust and jots because he won the one in Saudi Arabia and I think that's under, underappreciated. I had, yeah, I don't have a, you know what?

I thought I thought we were just doing three. This should be your third one. You're gonna find my way to third. This should be your third one. Oh, shit, hold on. I did Trevino. You did Trevino VJ. VJ, oh man.

Okay. But you pissed on some guys. Yeah, I pissed on a lot of guys. I was gonna, you know what? I'm gonna tell you what. VJ. VJ. Oh man. But you pissed on some guy. Yeah, I pissed on a lot of guys. God, I was gonna, you know what? You don't need to be like that. I'm gonna say, you did make eight guys. I'm gonna go with Dustin, because I think, you know, winning...

It's because I don't need what's going on about the list. 12 years in a row. There's wild man. Well, yeah, I had DJ. I'm just like, I'm T and Neil. No, but DJ was, he was, I struggle with this one to even nominate it because I do think he's overrated as well. Yeah.

Where it's like, dude, I mean, the guy is completely underutilized as talent in a lot of ways. But like, as far as like burns twice is bright. Like, I think you can be underappreciated for how good your talent is and still have an underachieving record. Yes. And I think that's where DJ fits in.

I think that that's a well put. Like he has been a stalwart on the PGA tour for over a decade now. Yeah. Like he's so good at golf. And you probably don't appreciate that enough. I think part of it too, yeah, is the consistency. To win once every season for your first 12 years on tour. Wow, man.

It's insane. And the other thing I think I put in here that I underappreciated about DJs, just the way that he just kind of splashed on the scene at that US Open and was at 2010, when McDowell won, and it was just like, it was just crushing the feel was just crushed in the field. Like, who is this guy?

He's coming out of nowhere. Where's he from? Like, you know, South Carolina, Merdle Beach, or it's like, what's going on here? And then he just absolutely implodes on the final round. And you're like, oh my God, you know,

you knew, was that everyone was kind of like, oh, knew that was coming. Guy just can't handle the pressure. And then you find out it's like, actually, no, he can't. Like he's, you know, then he's just, he just never went away after that. Like he next week he played well

and just like he was off and running. So I think that was an underappreciated Icarito moment for me for sure. Shout out to Hale Irwin, but in a different universe, Dustin Johnson also has three years. He opens. Exactly. Well, I had an honorable mention prepared

in case somebody took one of mine, which, with Torino getting replaced. I'm going to mention a major champion, currently still playing, 17 PGA Tour wins. His one major is a US open. His playing style was very perfect for the era that he came up in. And then the playing style changed dramatically

on the PGA Tour. He could have got absolutely vaporized by the new style, but has the longevity of hence his loss in Wild World of Golf. A recent loss in Wild World of Golf to just people that were just bludgeoning driver all of the yard. Jim Pyrrhic, 72 million dollars in earnings. A distance, which is just insane. Third all time. He again, had 17 wins, 31 runner-up finishes in his career. He had 188 top 10s.

For comparison, Phil has 195 and Tiger has 199. Now, Tiger has done it in way, way less than I'd say. One, I think he's not underappreciated among us. Just be due to the wild water gov. I think he was for a long time. No, he's seen it for years. That's what I'm saying. Until recent months.

But it's like seeing, I think the most underappreciated things, being able to drop that club head into the same spot with the way he, like the setup, how close he stands to the ball, like seeing all that up close. I was like, this, this dude can count on that under pressure. Like that's a lot of moving pieces. You were serious and unbelievable.

It's so cool. But I just tried, how many guys are in this bucket of kind of came up in his general time period and did not stick around for 30 years, right? I mean, like, Justin Leonard gone. Like, Jeff Maggard did you last this long? Like, all these guys that didn't bomb it, that just like thrived.

Scott Verplank, where'd you go? Like, you're gone. And Fiora, because like the only one that lasted for literally until he turned 50. I said, Maggard's probably a bit of an under-appreciated guy. Probably, but I'm not compared to Fiora. But no one, like, but he was a flusher for sure. Well, Tiger, light speeds old man.

What do you follow in that category? Yeah, Legionisher. So he's the lowest score in PGA Tourism. And PGA Tourism. He's more majors than Fear. Of course, the 58 of the travelers. And shot another 59 at Conway. And one of the grossest 59s ever,

no one got within seven of them that day or so. A Miller-asker head. Just wild. So longevity is something that all golfers crave and desire and he is one that is actually had, he almost beat Rory at the players last year. Like, are you at age 48? Are you kidding me?

So. So it's tour can't come soon enough. So that's a fully support. That's a good idea that's in there. I think I've played 45 holes with Jim, and I've seen him miss the fairway one time, literally one time, and he plays legitimately so close to the bunkers intentionally

because he knows exactly where it's going. I love your question. Like, man, doesn't it get boring? Yeah. Well, I was like, I'm not trying to be a jackass with this question. I promise you, but do you ever get bored hitting every fairway?

Like, I think I would just kind of lose focus. I just don't think that would be that fun. Like, how do you maintain that same level of focus and just like, think about how much you actually, he probably beats himself off when he does miss one. So it's probably like a really good free throw shooter. Exactly. That's exactly what I was gonna say.

Which is like, do I wish I missed more? Like, no. No. It's just a whole different. does miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss So it's like, ah, that wasn't what I wanted to do there. You're playing a different game. Yeah. All right, should we whittle it down? Let's narrow it down. All right. Well, hold on, I have a couple more, a few honorable mentions. Oh, good. You guys have any, I had a few guys written down. Steve Stricker and Kenny Perry, I didn't want to reheat my what if guys, but I think they're both underappreciated.

Um, and then Demarco, also from the what if, I think he's underappreciated. David Thompson. Yeah. I looked at Thompson. I think it's Jim Simpson. I think is underappreciated. I think what might be so underappreciated. David Tom's. Yeah. I looked at Tom's. I think it's Simpson. I think it's underappreciated. I think Webb might be so underappreciated at this point since his gold standard victory,

he's now overappreciated. Because people are like, man, this guy's so good. I think he'll be underappreciated from this era, but let's get, let's get some more time. And then I had, I had Brent Snedeker as a yeah That's the good. Yeah, he's underrated. He's 20th on the all-time money list 9 pga tour wins So he didn't I wouldn't nominate him, but he was on my short list Other honorable mentions I thought he was already said, but I thought Zach Johnson was the one that I gave long consideration to

He strikes me as like the Casper of this age though, where it's like, oh yeah, like of course, Zach Johnson. He's almost so under-appreciated that he's over-appreciated. Well, then factoring in, you know, he went to Drake and like, I just like know, I think Webb's gonna be the Billy Casper. Of course.

No. No, like a under-appreciated wise. Wins a lot of regular tour events. Huns, tons of wins. I, I, who? Web. He doesn't have, he doesn't have, he does not have tons of wins. He does like, like six.

Oh. All right, well. We can add a fact. Let's, let's narrow this down. All right. I, I nominate Tony Limow is the biggest slam dunk for me here. I was gonna say, so we gotta get, we'll stick to the process.

We got six. We're, we're process. 51. We're two different areas. You got your stance. We'll, we'll stick to the process. We'll go around in the same order we named him and basically we'll just say, you know, short list.

Sure. No short list. Billy Casper. Yeah, he's on the short list. I gotta think he's on the short list. Yeah, sure. Guys, can we just shut it down and say Tony Lima? Or right now?

We're leaving five, so no. Okay. Stick to the process. Stick to the process. He's my first one. He's not fit, it's tragic. He's a good case, no. I don't think he makes much.

I'm not trying. You're first guy. That's subscribing. Trevino, I believe. Trevino. Shortlist. I think he's on the shortlist. Yeah, I was gonna say that shortlist.

I honestly, I think, I don't think he's under, I don't know if he's underappreciated. I feel like Trevino gets a lot of burn. Well, but is he shortlisted or not? Is he shortlisted or not? For being a good golfer? No, I don't think he gets a lot of burn as being one of the greatest of all time.

I don't think he have the votes anyway. I think he's on the shortlist. He's on the shortlist. Shortlist. So all of you, your first one was also Trevino. Well, yes, correct. Which goes to Hailerwin. No, no, you skipped Bubba.

Oh, Bubba, you're on my short list for sure. I think Bubba is on the short list. Yeah, I'll put it. I mean, I won't like say, yeah, it's short. Yeah, I mean, he has short list. He's got three votes, he carries. Okay, on to you had Trevino as well. Hale Irwin on head, I don't think he makes a short list.

I've already forgotten. Three of you. Three of you us opens? Maybe that I already forgot. I don't think he makes a short list. I've already forgotten three US opens. Maybe that I already forgot. Should be a good reason to vote for him on the short list. Hail everyone. I don't think with the people we've talked about, I don't put him on my short list.

The short, would it be in my top five, probably no. Are we narrowing this down to like eight and then picking the five from? Yeah, I would say yes then okay T.C. Decider vote No, he does not haller went off the shortlist you're second guy. Oh my second guy was Ben Curtis Ben Curtis another compelling case. I don't think you're getting a short list of me I Think yes, I learned something from you ready. I like what you did, but I'm saying no. It's gonna be a no for us, dog.

Just a little pitchy for me, dogs. TC, VJ Singh. Yes. Yes. Yes. This is where I say no. I was gonna say no, that we don't have the votes, but I don't think he's underappreciated. I think he properly reprieved it.

I think people understood how it goes. I think people in the forewins. In the, in the highest here of the game, appreciate him, but I don't think the, the larger populace. I think there was a great period of time. I think a period of time of appreciate. I would put a guy like Hilar

when a head of VJ on this list. But that's a recency bias, because less, just like I think VJ ends up like Hilar went in 20 years. Hilar went one 20 times, 20 PJ tour events. And we're not talking about who had the better career. No, my whole thing is like appreciation. I think there was a huge swath of time

where casual sports people slash like non-sports fans knew of three golfers and one of them was BJ. But I think it was like nobody appreciates what he was doing because nobody rude for him. That's part of it. Probably fair too. Anyway, he's on the list. You know, we didn't mention this guy,

but Lani Watkins deserves at least a mention in this kind of career. We prof. Anyway, he's on the list. You know, we didn't mention this guy, but Lanny Walkins deserves at least a mention in this kind of career. We pro-lown recently, so that's probably why. DJ is kind of in that Bubba camp. Yeah. A little bit, you know, or the likability. Much more prolific. Yeah.

You're second guy. Neil remind me. Justin Rose. Justin Rose. Wasn't Bubba? I don't know. We did that. Justin Rose gets a no vote for me. No vote for me. No vote for me. That's fair, but listen, I think my case for nationalism

was heard. Was heard? Yeah, absolutely. It was heard. We fully acknowledged it. The film re-appreciated when you have the hopes and dreams of a nation. So we don't need to relate again.

All right, I want to make sure that's heard. It's all your second guy. Ray Floyd. Ray Floyd, I think he's got a ray of his foot. I think it's all up. Yes, for sure Okay, my last guy Johnny Miller gets an absolute thumbs up from me. Yeah, yeah, you made it you made a compelling case My last guy was Tony Lima 100% yes, no greater

So I think we just picked everyone Yeah, I'm kidding. Dustin Johnson? I don't want to put Dustin in this position. I don't think he's going to get the vote. PC has recused himself. I'm taking him off the vote. That was mine as well, and I'm taking him off. You're taking him off.

Tom Kite. Yeah, I think Kite's on there for sure. It's my vote. I'll vote for Kite. And we also threw out Fierrick as well. Did you do? Well, I got one takin'. Okay, yeah.

I think I was back. I think Fierrick might get a thumbs up from me. God, I'm right in the middle, I'm Fierrick. I'm, what do you mean? I see where the vote shake is. I'm a yes. I'm Fierrick. See, I think Fierrick is more appreciated than VJ.

VJ has three major, Fierrick has one. I'm fine keeping Fierrick off because I don't think he's gonna, he's not gonna win the top five. It's the fetus voting though. You got to isolate yourself. Yes or no. I would say yes. I, I think we have two yeses, one no.

I mean, Fierrick has half the wins of EJ. I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I think a lot of people know and appreciate Jim Fierrick as an excellent golfer. Senator, we just need a yes or no. So I'm going to I'm going to tilt now. Okay. And Neil also will be a no. Fierrick does not have the votes. Fierrick does not carry order. We have our short list. Are you guys ready? Yes. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight bill Casper, Lee Trevino, Burble Watts and VJ, saying Ray Floyd, Johnny Miller, Tony Lima, Tom Kite.

Now we need to whittle it down to the top five. I think again, a shout out to the big picture pod of which we stole this format. I'm a visual or can you repeat those one more time? Absolutely. Billy Casper, Lee Trevino, Bubble Watson, VJ saying, Ray Floyd, John Miller, Tony Lima, and Tom Kite. So we can be nominated people to chop off or what's the best way to get down to five? I would say I would, I think Johnny Miller of all those guys mentioned is appreciated the most probably because he stayed in the public seat.

I think that's a bad take. That's exactly what DJ was trying to argue. No, I get what he was arguing. I'm saying his, we're talking about his golf. It's golf, I can understand that. His Q rating. I don't think people appreciate how good he was. Exactly.

I think, I think Bubba can come off that. I think like everyone here knows, like most people know he's a two-time major winner. He won the Masters twice. He's flamboyant. Like everyone sees him at leaderboards. I don't, I don't know who's under appreciating how good Bubba is.

I think Bubba's talent might be under appreciated, but Bubba's profile in the game probably is the same thing he always had. It's like his golf game is under appreciation. Because it's so, you're so distracted by all the other stuff. I never think it's the same thing you always say. It's like his golf game is under appreciation. Because it's so you're so distracted by all the other stuff. I agree. Yeah, but you go up and ask, I guess who's the target here? Are we talking about the general golf populist?

Are we just talking about, sure. I think it's, yeah. Well, and that's a good point because I think our, because of our ages, we skew more towards like under appreciating guys from the 70s. How many majors did Tom Kite have? Just one. He's the first one off the list for me. I'm firmly in the kite camp. I think he's off her hunt. I think he's on. Well guys, we're gonna have to start talking. I'm willing to join Sully with Bubba. I think 30 years from now, when our grandkids are doing this podcast,

I think Bubba would be a very strong contender, but I think right now for me personally, I don't... Yeah, I'd rather say, like Justin Rose is so much more consistent than Bubba is. And that's... Bubba's gone. That's our prejudice. He's gone. We're down to seven.

We need to whittle off two more years. Thank you for making the case for Justin Rose Like I think Bubba is very to nation's hopes You're welcome. I'm by point stands Let's let's do this. Bubba's off. That's fine. I don't care. I don't care this podcast is bullshit. I'm leaving If you don't have one at the top five, you lose the podcast. Bullshit.

Y'all are just whipping the votes. All right, here's what I would suggest. I think we, we gotta, we gotta cement. There's gotta be three or four we can submit. Lima, I think one of the limits of no-one. Lima's in, right? Lima's in. That was, I think VJ might come off the list.

I can see. We'll hear that case, the last thing to the process. Let's go back to cementing. I think VJ might come off the list. I can see. We'll hear that case, the list. Let's go back to cementing. I think Trevino is cemented, by opinion. I see. I would push back there. I think there's other guys ahead of you. I would cement Floyd before Trevino.

Really? I think as underappreciated. I think Floyd's underappreciated more than Trevino. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yes. Floyd should stay on the list. Yeah, that's Trevino should come off. I think both those get both I will ride hard for both those guys. As I understand the take that he's not appreciated as one of the best golfers of all time,

but I still think he's appreciated. I think the level of appreciation is closer to what it should be than it is for Raymond Floyd. Let me let him get it. You know ever as we should have neat the grade on the as we're trying to cement. Let me throw it out again. The ultimate of really Casper has more wins than everyone except six people that have ever played golf and you never hear his name ever. Yeah, maybe he was a win manipulator.

He's on the list. I think Casper's got like he's got a reason why he when we tron's original point, there's probably a reason why it comes up on every search as the most underrated goal. That's the only time he just win Maybe we I did not know he had 51 wins. Are we cementing Billy cast? I'm cementing Billy Billy Casper I object but noted The committee no one is writing the dissenting opinion on this Okay, we have Tony Lehman Billy Caspered top five, no matter what locked in.

Okay. I think Ray Floyd, you gotta go Ray Floyd. I think we have a core on them. I think I disagree, but I don't think I have the votes. I would go Ray Floyd as well. So you don't think Ray Floyd. DJ, you think Ray Floyd would come off the list. Do you mean his stats one more time?

So four time major winner, which there's only 12 modern golfers that have more than that. Was on his for the slam one year. Almost no, he almost won the career grand slam. He lost to Jack by one or not by one, but he lost, he finished second to Jack in 1978. He won this first master's by eight. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, 22.

Again, the tiebreaker here, manager of a topless band, the ladybirds. So, and was drafted by the Cleveland Indians. Possibly the biggest alpha of all time. All right, he's on the list. Tony Lima, Billy Casper, Ray Floyd, all on the list. We now have to pick two of these remaining four. Four for two. I think it's a no-brainer.

Trevino, VJ Singh, Johnny Miller, Tom Kite. I think Vijay comes off the list easiest for me. I think Vijay comes off the list as well. I'll agree there. We have, we have Korum? Yes. Yeah. Okay, we need to pick two of the remaining three. Trivino, Johnny Miller, Tom Kite.

Sorry, Tom Kite, one major, how many, how many, 19 wins? 19 wins. I think it's Trevino and Johnny Miller. Yeah, I think Kite's vibe needs to be. I think Kite's vibe is underappreciated. Yeah. More so than his golf game.

I think we can put that as maybe first alternate. Yeah, Tom Kite's vibe. Yeah, top five vibe. Can I put a third wedge in his bag? In the Ramway. In the Ramway. In the Ramway. Is there any dissenting opinions? I went for Tom Kite over Trevino or Johnny Miller.

I would argue that more, like obviously Miller's career is stronger. But like I knew that Johnny Miller was a great player. I've always appreciated his great player. Yes, there's a level of like, whoa, I didn't know he was that. That's what that's where I am. I didn't know the details. Right, but I do like, I honestly thought he was a bunter and like, I just totally underappreciated his game.

Because I have a ball. Okay. So for me, that's fair. He's more underappreciated than Johnny Miller. All right, well let's do that. I'm not expecting me to carry on a travita. Kai feels like Scott Verplank in an easier arrow with the major. I think let's do that. I'm not expecting we can. We can't even carry on a Trevena. Trevena's like, Scott Verplank in an easier era with the Maider.

I think that's his point. That's what he looks like, but maybe he wasn't. He was a pull-a. Where? We saw his research presupposes. Almost like three runner-ups, the masters, and like basically finished top 10 there for a decade straight.

I'm joining my colleague. I'm in the time. All right, let's start with Trevena. Do we have, do we have Quorum for Trevena? I think Trevena's I'm in the time. Let's start with Trevino. Do we have, do we have Quorum for Trevino? I think Trevino's got to be in there. Yeah. Great thing. He's probably, I would say, gets the most run of any pity left,

but I still think is under. That's what I think he gets plenty around. Like, if I still do think he doesn't get in proportion to how good he was, I still don't think. If somebody said greatest golfers of all time go like where does Chirvino? Chirvino should be in the top 10 like he but he doesn't I didn't think if you're actually making that list He doesn't show up in the top 30. Oh come on He shows up and it's basically like you're doing off top of your head. I don't think people I was gonna say he might he should probably be top 8 and he might

Show up like 12 to 15 to most people's minds. They come on, top 30, that's a reckless. I think there would be massive recency bias if you were to do a survey. If you're going to do top 30 and Chirvino doesn't show up in there, like, guys, I'm not saying that's what I think. I'm saying that's what the general populist would think. Yeah, but the general populist is stupid. They're underappreciated.

That's the point. That sounds important. I'm on board with Chirvino. Chir under appreciate that support. That's on part. I'm on board with Trimina. Trimina's in. All right. So we're now down to Johnny Miller and Tom Kite. I firmly in the Johnny Miller case, let me make my closing argument again, citing TC's quote that he dude literally didn't miss a shot for by what more than two feet in 72 holes and did that repeatedly. He would just go in like when he was hot, he would, what did I say, one eight times,

I think in 74 and a lot of those were just like eight shot wins. Six out of the case though. Like he is amazing. That's kind of cool. You know, I mean, he's great. He comes back to the Dustin Johnson take of like, he was the greatest player of all time for like one whole take of like he was a greatest player of all time for like all the whole Johnny might have been the greatest player of all time for like two years for you know six events in a row. Yeah, you know for me personally

I think Johnny Miller being like this, you know, he was really good. It's that hipster band that maybe was under Appreciate one time, but I feel like I personally have Gotten enough information about him to where it's like I feel like I have a pretty good appreciation for him. Did I know all the details? No. But like Tom Kite's a guy like, I think he won a major, did he win? I don't know, a handful of tour events. Like, I don't really know that.

Kite's a guy. Well, let's see if the records are that different. Similar to 25 PGA Tour of Winds, two majors. Kite 19 Tour of Winds, one major. Who's, like, that's not that different. I'll go with kite. You've sold me. Tom kite, final answer.

Wow. All right. Well, I don't like it, man. This is how it's about. This is how democracy works. It's why they often fail. Well, I mean, the butter brigade will be over here. Plants, kites.

I got Billy, I got Billy Kasper on the list. I would probably throw Johnny in there Versus somebody else on the list, but Billy Yeah That's All right, listen, I don't have to like it, but they're final five Tony Lima excellent poll raidi. Thank you Billy Casper

Taste it, Tron. Ray Floyd. It's all a great call. Trevino. Tron. Great deep dive on him. And Tom Kite. It's all he was two with two in the top five. Well done. Well prepared. Hi, man. And I would like the record to show that our submissions did not make it. No, no, no. Hi, man. Go. I didn't get one. But this is who's kind of like the who's coming. Can we pour one out for all the current players? I don't know, pocket. I may go. I didn't get one, but this is a huge camera. Who's counting? Can we pour one out for all the current players? Absolutely.

That's why I think there's a massive recency bias on your appreciation. It goes back to how we're defining it. And if it's a personal definition, then this is a perfectly acceptable list. I should have put our A.C.s. I think Ricky's underappreciated by the people at this table. That was a lot of fun. More than anything, it's like, I think we get underappreciated by the people at this table. That was a lot of fun.

More than anything, it's like, I think we get some dream podcast guests that I'd love to work on. Absolutely. Not a dream podcast guest for obvious reasons, but I'm gonna buy his biography right after this, is Tony Lima. Yeah. That's fascinating.

Great stuff if you're listening to that, but great spirited discussions. Even if you didn't make the final five. No, you, you, you brought great discussions just to be the conversation. Yeah, just to be at the table is really a more such an honor. It's not, it's, you know, thank you to the players that have been so underpriced. Do you want me to another shout out to Keti Perry before we go? Underappreciated Hat game.

Thanks everybody. Hey, real, real quick before we go. We get it. Guantia. If Keti Perry had quick before we go. We get it. Guantia. If Katy Perry had the ramp had it, I was huge. Oh man. I had a dream last night. I woke up like the most vivid dream I've had in months.

I was like, I've had a shaker. I came to meet a dream. I've had a lot of dreams lately. I don't know if it's this whole quarantine thing, but I did dream that Sergio Seven putted the last hole with Augusta, and it wasn't for the win or anything. He was just in general seven putt of the last hole with Augusta

and just absolutely lost his shit. Like went that shit crazy, and it was a wild. Well, let's hope it was a premonition. So that was how I woke up this morning. That's wild. That's wild. That's why you're getting hostile about 18th and Jack's Beach. We didn't know any of this context.

So all right, thanks again everybody for tuning in. Cheers and we'll be back soon. Hmm. Hmm. Get the right club, be the right club today. Yeah! That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most.

Better than most! Expect anything different.