No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 324: USGA's John Bodenhamer

Episode Date: June 25, 2020

The Senior Managing Director, Championships for the USGA, John Bodenhamer joins us to walk us through how they came up with the exemption categories for the US Open, his first time setting up a US Open, how the schedule change will affect Winged Foot, defining "tough but fair," how the USGA recovered from a potential boycott of the US Open, and a lot more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. We are going to get to our interview here shortly with the USGA's John Bowdenhammer. You know him as the, he's the director of championships. He's in charge of the course setups.

We didn't talk about this until about an hour in, but also a great player in his own right. I played a lot of, at the very high level of golf throughout a lot of his golf career and has a unique perspective on a lot of things. We talk all things USGA, US Open, Exemptions, all that good stuff. On Sunday night, I know we mentioned on the pod the number one irons and golf as a part of a read. We were kind of surprised that we hadn't said that in a while, maybe haven't emphasized that enough. And I think that kicked the guys at Callaway in the pants a little bit to realize that

they should ask us to talk about that a bit more. So whether you're just picking up the game and we want to give a shout out to Christopher, one of our Danish friends who told us on Twitter that he wants to hashtag get involved, just bought his first set of clubs, got his first lesson. Or if you're out there trying to qualify for the US Open, which spoiler alert for this podcast did not receive an exemption despite declaring my intentions to qualify for this year's US Open. Calaway's got a set of irons that are right for your game. Again, the lineup ranges from the forgiving clubs like the Maverick Max, all the way to the ball striking machines like the Apex Pro and the X forged. Neil, I try to get Neil

in the X forged and he claims that there are too much of a player's iron for him, but I really think he could play those. So again, check out CallawayGolf.com. Plus, despite everything going on, they're getting custom orders out the door incredibly quickly. So if you've got the means, now's a great time to get your hands

on a new set of irons. Learn about the number one irons in golf by visiting CallawayGolf.com. Slash irons, that's CallawayGolf.com slash irons. Here about the number one irons in golf by visiting calwaygolf.com slash irons that's calwaygolf.com slash irons. Here is John Bowdenhammer. So I don't think we have to go over every single category of the exemptions. You know, I think we can start with just what is different than a normal US open. Of course, today it came out. The criteria going to be used for the 2020 US open. Obviously, there's no qualifying.

So just kind of can you give us a rundown of what the USGA has done to adjust the exemption criteria for this year? Well, goodness, today's announcements, a culmination of a lot of, I would say, creative thinking. Certainly by a number of us within the USGA, a lot of dedicated staff, but also some external input and just some really different thinking about how we might do this. You know, it's been really agonizing

to be in this position, to have navigated in it last few months with the pandemic and have to cancel championships, not conduct qualifying. I think we put a lot of thought into conducting these four championships, especially the US Open in what we're calling a fully exempt way. And I would say that what is really most different is just that, but the way that we've thought about it, I think just to sum it up,

our premise has been to conduct the US Open with a representative field and representatives a keyword of what normally in a typical year the US Open field would look like. What do I mean by that? Well, we've gone back several years, four or five, six years, and looked at the data and looked at what a US Open field typically looks like from qualifying from players that are already exempt, how many PGA tour players, how many European tour players, how many developmental tour players, how many amateurs, and really looked at that and tried to create

exemption categories that would result in or at least provide an opportunity for players to enter. and we're going to have a lot of fun with the players. And we're going to have a lot of fun with the players. And we're going to have a lot of fun with the players. And we're going to have a lot of fun with the players. And we're going to have a lot

of fun with the players. And we're going to have a lot of fun with the players. And we're going to have a lot of fun with the players. And we're going to have a lot of fun with the players. And we're going to have a lot

of fun with the players. And we're going to have a lot of fun with the players. And we're going to have a lot of fun with the players. And a better year to have come out with a marketing campaign around qualification perhaps? Yeah, that's a great question. I don't think our timing could have been worse, but I will tell you what, the brand campaign from many one is something that we think it will last for many years into the future. And to think about our DNA that is qualifying, you know, we like to think of our championships,

the US Open for sure, but all of our championships is the ultimate meritocracy is in their own demographic. And you know, it's really interesting each year the US Open we have between nine and 10,000 players from every background that enter and follow their dream through the platform that is qualifying that we provided. We're very proud of that. That's the cornerstone of the USGA championships.

It's our DNA. It's who we are. And I think going through this this year is really just reinforced that. And so we do this year as a one off. We'll get back to robust qualifying next year and we'll reintroduce the brand campaign in a great way next year. You know, I think for me personally, as a, I would, it's safe to say maybe eight years ago,

it was much more of a casual golf fan than I am now that I get to do this full time as a job, but it honestly took probably until last year to really hit me as to what, you know, the phrase, US Open meant when I was thinking of Brooks Keppka having won in 2017 and 2018 and finishing second in 2019 was out of the 10,000-ish people that go to start this process every year. Literally none of them had beat him for two straight years

and only one guy beat him in the third year. I just, in a way, the qualifying makes it somewhat easier for a guy like a Brooks's talent. I don't want to say dilutes the field a little bit. Just makes the field much more diverse and is not necessarily the top 156 players in the world. But also in a way, just the fact that out of 10,000 people that that guy had that run, it stuck out to me a lot.

And it was, I guess, contributed to the bummer that is this year of not having qualification. Yeah, it really is, but it's something we look forward to returning to. And you know, you think about qualifying for us, as I said, it's at the heart and soul of what we do with all of our championships, especially US Open. You think about some of the great stories that have come through qualifying, local and final qualifying, Ken Venturi, Steve Jones, Michael Campbell a few years ago that really made it through both stages, went on to win

the championship and truly follow your dream. And there's always that great story, that 17-year-old Bo Haasler at the Olympic Club in 2012 that was right up there near the lead. I know when I played college, golf, Bobby Clampett, someone who went through qualifying as a young 19-year-old amateur who had the lead after 27 holes at the US Open. I think the US Open is truly that. It is the most open of any championship in the world. And we can talk about that, but it is true.

It really doesn't distinguish from where you come, what your background is, who you are, all it is. The great determiner is how you get your ball in the hole and you earn your way in. That's it. And we're very proud of that and the ability for people to follow their dream is something that we want to continue as we go forward. Well, before we get kind of into this, I've got like five things highlighted here that are basically, if I were to sum it up, the adjustments you guys are making to kind of fill out that, fill out that field. But when it comes to the cancelization of the qualification outright, would you say it was something that eventually became a no-brainer or was there a time,

you know, once you started canceling local qualifiers, was there ever a time when you really thought you might be able to piece something together for qualification? Yes, yes, all along the way. When we began to face, you know, the COVID-19 coronavirus, we went into the year really back in March and even in April and into May and Go ahead have to think about the progression of decisions that we may but we started through all of this In wanting to conduct and crown as many usj champions as we could you know You think about every usj championship whether it's our senior women's amateur or the us amateur or the US mid-ameter, or the girls junior. Each of those are a major championship for somebody in their category, and we wanted to conduct

everything that we could. But health and safety was our first consideration. We don't just show up the day before the USJ championship and conduct it. They're not only months, but years in the planning, whether they're one of our only months, but years in the planning, whether they're one of our open championships, one of the four opens, or one of our 10-ameter championships. And really the health and safety of all of those that at the host club, or that go into all of that planning that goes into it, or our vendors, or the local communities,

and all the volunteers, we just needed to put that first and foremost and some of those decisions needed to be made several weeks ahead of time. But they were heartbreaking. Make no mistake about it. They were heartbreaking every single one of them and the way that we think of it is we really turned over every stone and looked at every possible scenario before we made any of those decisions, whether it was cancellation or to no longer have qualifying. We looked at ways of condensed qualifying. We looked at just a few qualifiers.

We looked at, I think, just about every different way that we could think of, to have some type of qualifying and to conduct as many championships as we could. But in the end, with all of the things that were necessary from a health and safety standpoint, testing, safety protocols, government approvals, all of those things really contributed to our decisions. But, you know, I think health and safety was first and foremost, and I don't think there was ever a time when we just said we're not going to do qualifying, but we did stay close to our allied golf associations who conduct over 650 qualifiers

throughout the year. And you know, thinking about rescheduling those from all the way back into April through July and August, you know, when they've been challenged and the host clubs that are hosting them have been challenged, have been closed for months and need to open and generate revenue on their own. It was just the right decision for that and other reasons. Yeah. No, I think it, I guess, what do you wish that people understood more? I was personally a bit surprised at how much blowback I saw when it was announced that it would

be a fully exempt field. I thought it was, you know, the alternative is that you don't have the US open. I think once you you kinds have it had to explored a lot of uh... the the qualification possibilities that you just discussed but what's is there anything out there that you want to just you know get out to people to say like i wish people really understood where we're coming from on this one yeah i i think there is i think there are a number of points again i think we

went into the season trying to conduct everything uh... that we could and crown as many champions as we could. But as we got into it, it became pretty clear that we were only going to be able to achieve so much. And we think the four championships, the US Women's Amateur, the US Amateur, the US Open and the US Women's Open will represent something very special if we can crown those four champions. And I think by the end of the year and December, if we can crown those four champions. And I think by the end of the year and December, if we can crown those four champions

and the women's open and December champions golf club, we think it'll put a real exclamation point on the season. And you think about it. You think about crowning a US Open Champion at Wingfoot, which has been the epicenter of the virus in our country, literally Westchester County and New Rochelle, and to be able to do that, and what that will mean for that community,

and for the state of New York, and for our country, and the game, we just wanted to make every effort to do that, and really, these four are best paths for success. But I think the one point is, I would really want people to know that we're disappointed with having to cancel championships and qualifying.

We know they are and we are too and I would want them to know that. I think it's important that they understand that we agonized over every one of these decisions. Anybody on our staff or championship committee or executive committee will tell you that we looked at every option and it was it was incredibly difficult and heartbreaking to do that and we didn't take that lightly but we set our priorities with health and safety and I know there are different opinions on that but we thought that was the most important guiding star. Do you is there any you know you kind of you threw out a few things as to

how you got you looked at abbreviated qualifying. Is there any one qualifying option that was the closest to happening? I don't know if you can give us any specifics as to thinking, you know what, we were had the lead on this and we were close to making this happen, but just couldn't figure it out. Any details you give us on what an abbreviated qualifying might have looked like? Sure. I could share spreadsheets with you today as we make this announcement today on multiple plans that we had for qualifying.

And I'll give you one example. US Open Qualifying begins in April and it runs through May and 109 sites around the country and in Canada that are US open local qualifying. And then we would move to 12 final qualifying sites in June, both in the United States and one in England and one in Japan and one in Canada. And we looked at 109 local qualifiers taking them from April and May and moving them into maybe late July and August ahead of what wing foot would be.

And we said, boy, we can't ask our AGA's, which have many of them been closed down, all of them have been closed down. There wasn't even really the ability to communicate with golf clubs because they were closed. By government restriction, not everywhere, but in many places, the golf shops were closed. Club houses were closed for safety reasons. We couldn't even communicate with them and the ability to schedule 109 on top of what clubs were trying to reschedule and generate revenue from their own and and AGA's with their events. But we did create a scenario where we looked at final qualifying for the US Open to where we might limit it to just maybe a dozen

or so or a little more than that even or even a little less in that sites and conduct final qualifying and bypass the local qualifying stage and just exempt folks into final qualifying. But I think one of the things that was really important for us was the manner in which we would conduct qualifying. And we made the decision several weeks ago to be able to or we made the decision to conduct the championships under a testing protocol for players to create a very safe and the safest and healthiest atmosphere that we could for each of our championships. You know, if you've seen the PGA tour protocols

for testing and health and safety, you know, they started in Dallas colonial a couple of weeks ago and we're in, we're in, Hilton had this week and all the players, Caddies, essential workers are being tested and we've worked very closely with the PGA tour or the other majors and really to provide that level of safety was something we felt was important.

And to do that for our championships was one thing, daunting, basically starting from scratch with all of that, not easy getting government approvals, creating those testing protocols, health and safety protocols. But to be able to have to do that for qualifying, even if it were a dozen or 15 qualifiers and put that on our AGA's, who really would have been challenged

to be not qualifying let alone a testing protocol and health and safety protocols, you know, you think about it. How are AGA's gonna conduct qualifying where, you know, government mandates, or you can only show up 10 or 15 minutes before you're starting time. How do you administer a practice area? How do you do simple things like put your hand in a water cooler to grab a bottle of water on a 95 degree day

when you're conducting qualifying? How do, when you have lightning in the area, how do you evacuate people? Sure aren't going to pile them into vans, let alone test them, a couple days beforehand, and ask them to administer something like that. It just wasn't possible. We got close, we looked at it,

but we felt that to provide the healthy and safe atmosphere for everybody, we needed to limit it to our championships. Yeah, no, that definitely makes sense and just hearing and describe all that out. It sounds like it makes more sense as to how the current setup came to be. As a golf fan, again, I say the next worst alternative is that the event gets canceled,

and as somebody that wants to watch the US Open on TV regardless of what month it's in, I'm very thankful that it's happening. I don't enjoy the fact that the open shape of chip is not happening. And I think they have a whole different bucket of considerations to go through and whatnot. But that's the alternative. And that's not a good one in my mind. So if you wanna go through,

if you don't mind kinda walking us through the criteria here. So in a normal year, the top 60 players in the official world golf rankings are automatically qualified. The adjustment that is made for 2020 is that the top 70 in ties in the world rankings will be qualified for this. What caused that expansion from 60 to 70? Well, it really was in our minds a fairness component. I think that we felt that the ability to expand to the top 70 and use the frozen rankings to do so was just the ability to give a few more players the ability to play.

And use the rankings to do that. We knew we wanted to do more than just use the rankings, but we also knew that that was going to be a linchpin for us. And doing that and using the frozen rankings, it allowed a number of things to happen. It allowed us to really build out and expand that category to get to what I mentioned before with our opening premise in doing all of this with a fully exempt field. And that is to really have a representative field. And looking at the rankings and going 70 deep,

it gave us a nice mix of PJGA tour players, European tour players, foreign tour players. And you'll see that in what we've built. We've not limited it to just the PGA tour in the European tour. You see the Worldwide, some of the Worldwide Tourist developmental tours, the Corn Ferry Tour. And that really comes from the data that we looked at. It started with the OWGR, official World Golf ranking, and starting with 70, and it really helped us build that ability to fill our field in a starting way where we had a good representation.

It also, you think about the challenges with travel, even just the ability to travel safely, but even more so international travel. And we felt that it was important for players to be able to plan their schedule this year more than ever, just people getting in this country from other countries that have travel restrictions currently, and having to self-quarantine for 14 days and plan their schedule accordingly, we wanted to give, you know, maybe a bit of an expansion on the rankings and use them so that a few more players could play or excuse me, play and plan their schedules around the US Open. And then the next step was is also their spots available through the memorial, the 3M championship,

the WGC FedEx St. Jude, the Barakuda, and the Windom and the PGA championship. Without it spelled out specifically, it sounds a bit like the open qualifying series for the open championship. Was that used as a model at all, or an example of some qualifying criteria to go off of for you guys? Certainly, we recognized what our partners,

our governance partners over at the RNA, and our good friends certainly do with the British open. And not having qualifying this year. Yeah, we looked at that. We understood what they did. But I think from our standpoint, the principal behind that and today's announcement, and I think that is the one category that I look at

that will probably be the most surprising to people because it was a lot of creative thought that went behind it from the standpoint of what events do we use to allow some players to earn their way in. It certainly doesn't replace qualifying. It's not perfect, but it does provide a pathway for some to earn their way in that otherwise wouldn't fit in these exemption categories that we've expanded. And we're excited about that. We think that the ability to earn their way in that otherwise wouldn't fit in these exemption categories that we've expanded. And we're excited about that. We think that the ability to earn your way in through those championships, two or three spots, to those that otherwise wouldn't be fully exempt will be a real carrot for many that will chase that ability to play in the US open. So I think that's,

that was something we really thought a lot about and providing that earn your way in opportunity. It's not perfect, it's not qualifying, but you know what? Qualifying is not perfect. When you really think about it, because sometimes the best players don't qualify. And so there's no silver bullet here, but we felt that this was something that we could provide that would allow maybe some that otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to play their way in.

And it's diverse too. I mean, there's the the Cornfairy Tours regular regular season points list. The top five from that will qualify the top five from the Cornfairy finals as well as the top 10 in aggregate points for the first five events on the European Tours United UK swing. those folks all qualify as well. So it's not just through the PGA tour, there's opportunities on both the Corn Ferry tour, the European tour, as well as there's order merit categories on the Japan Golf Tour, Sunshine Tour, Asian Tour, and Australasia Tour. So it sounds like the goal was not just necessarily obviously the focus being on the United States.

No, that's exactly right. And again, it goes back to looking at the data of what a typical US Open field year in and year out looks like from a representation across the world. And I think you mentioned the corn fairy tour. That's just one. And you mentioned the player in opportunities with With the barracuda or the 3M, you know, I think you'll see you'll see players coming from the memorial or Or the St. Jude the World Golf Championship event that might be more of the higher ranked players that otherwise wouldn't be fully

Exam, but you'll see you'll see some of those From the barracuda probably or the 3M that would you know, maybe be some players that that you'll see some of those from the Barracuda probably or the 3M that would maybe be some players that you'd see come up through qualifying. Same with the cornferry tour events that would normally have to make their way through qualifying. And we really looked at the cornferry tour to provide those opportunities based on what the cornferry tour normally produces each year as representation in the US open. And then I think something that we're quite

excited about is the UK swing, the events that will kick off and will use five of those. And as you mentioned, the Aggregate 10 players for those first five events. And you know, we're excited about that because every year the European golf association conducts a qualifier for us in London at Walton Heath Golf Club, which is a magnificent place, 36 holes just outside of London. And typically, you're in and you're out. That's usually our strongest qualifying field.

Either that or one of our fields in Ohio around the Memorial Championship, Memorial Tournament. championship, memorial tournament. But we felt that it was important to continue that that opportunity for our friends in Europe to be able to earn their way in through that UK swing. Again, it doesn't replace qualifying, but it does provide that pathway for the players to play their way into the US Open. I think that's how Michael Campbell got in was through Walton Heath, if I remember right. Yeah, it was the very first year I believe that we conducted qualifying in Europe and Michael got in and went on to win.

That's right, it's Pinehurst. Yeah, that's great. I remember seeing that, he sent a flag back or something to his in the clubhouse there that commemorated that. But there he is, yeah. I think that pretty much covers up, covers us off on a lot of qualifying stuff

and I hope you saved some energy because I really want to pick your brain on course setups and everything here. But I'm not afraid to nerd out over some of this stuff and get down to the nitty gritty. But kind of higher level first, is the crisis affecting how wing foot will be set up at all? And if so, how might that be? I know you're dealing with a golf course in the Northeast in September, which is different than in June. Is it helped? Does it hurt?

What kind of effect will, you know, moving the US open to three months later have for your job? Well, you know, it's, it's going to have a number of effects. But nothing that we can't overcome and, and we'll have a great US open. The first thing that we've really considered is just we have less daylight in September than we do in June. We typically play the U.S. Open during the time of the year, the summer solstice where we have the most daylight of you know during the year and so we're able to really develop our starting times and our field of 156 based on that daylight. And this year we're just not going to have that opportunity.

And we've got about an hour and a half less daylight on the back end and about an hour less on the front end. And so we've gone with a field of 144 down from 156. And we'll do some things that are not uncommon, that professional players see. We'll light the range in the morning so players can warm up early and we can start right at dawn and really get in as many players as we can. And, you know, I'll tell you that even with that limited daylight, it's not insurmountable

because even in June, we do have plenty of time. But I think when you think about the Northeast and Wingfoot in September, it's a beautiful time of the year to play. It's not over Father's Day or US Open Sunday in June, but boy, to be a Wingfoot in September, really, we have a chance to see that golf course in all its glory. And you know, some of the greatest US Open history has been, has been conducted at wing foot. Bob Jones in 1929 made that eight footer on that famous 18th green to go into a playoff, 36th old playoff the next day where he won by 23 strokes.

And then, you know, down through the years, he had Billy Cast for in 1959 and Fuzzy's L or 1984. And then of course, Jeff Ogleby and that amazing finish in 2006. But you know, wing foot is a type of place. June or September really doesn't matter. It's wing foot and we could, if you give the USJ a couple of weeks and you just, you groomed things a little bit for a couple of weeks, you could play the US Open at wing foot most any time during the summer or the early fall. It's that type of golf course. It's just an iconic US Open golf course.

Well, how different is the challenge for you for Wingfoot? I mean, 2019 was your first year of setting up the US men's championship at Pebble Beach, completely different setting, different grasses, and now this different time of year. So what right now, you know, three months out from it, what's keeping you up at night? What, what are you, what are some of the variables? Well, some of the variables, it's always starts with the weather. The golf course will be what the golf course is. Wingfoot is different than Pebble Beach, it's different than Mary, and it's different than the Olympic Club. It's different than Pinehurst or Oakmont or Shinnecocchills. They're all different. And I think that's a, that's really a wonderful trade of the US open.

We really take the US open to our country's greatest venues, most revered venues. And we think that's something special that we will always maintain. We can showcase the very best that our country has, whether it's the FESCU and of Shinnecock Hills or the Rocky outcroppings at Pebble Beach or the Sand Hills in North Carolina at Pinehurst or the Rolling Hills at Oakmont and Pittsburgh, we can showcase the best that golf has to offer in our

country. So they're all different, but I think really last year at Pebble Beach, we did think a little differently about our philosophy and how we approach the US Open. And one of those sort of guiding lights was, we're going to these great courses. Let's just let them be those great courses. And just go in with a game plan and stick to it, regardless of the weather. We did that with Pebble. We didn't get the win. Scores might have been a little lower than had we had a little bit of win, but we weren't going to deviate from that because Pebble Beach is so great and we had a great US open and Wingfoot is that same way. It is a magnificent golf course. It will be a great test. Whoever wins there will have earned it and we're just going to let wing foot be wing foot.

Well, I'm really, I like how you said that there because I'm in agreement with you on Pebble Beach and I've always thought that the RNA gets a complete pass when you know scores get low in the open championship. I think they do a great job of letting the conditions dictate the scoring and I know you can't speak to necessarily all US opens in the past, but do you get tempted or lured in any way when you see that the wind's not gonna come when you see it's maybe not gonna be as firm as you would, ideally have it.

A lot of people, several generations, I think of people in the US and golf fans, it's just for whatever reason to test a US open that has a low winning number. In relation to par, do you feel any obligation to par in any way or do you feel like you needed to deliver at all in any way to the people that view a US open and will only like to watch it when there's absolute carnage? Well, I can only speak for myself,

and what our philosophy is at the USJ and PAR is not the target. Now, there'll be people that won't believe that, but I think we evidenced that last year at Pebble Beach. Sure, it was tempting when we didn't get the wind. It was tempting to try to put the pedal to the metal and do something that would, you know, provide a few more defenses for that great links course.

But we really, you know, we went into it and our game plan was truly a little bit different in a few areas. And but primarily it was, let's go into this plan and let's stick with it and let the golf course dictate who's going to win not the USJ. And I think that will remain. Whether it's Wingfoot or Pebble Beach or Pinehurst or Tori Pines next year, I think we go on with the game plan and I think we let it be. And it's good enough that way.

I think a US Open setup is enough to crown a US Open champion. You know, we put a premium on accuracy. What we try to create is something special that when you hoist that trophy at the end of a US Open, you really feel that you've done something special. You know, I go back to some comments that have stuck with me over the years. I'll use Tom Watson, who I grew up,

having great admiration for and watching play. And, you know, his dad made him memorize all the US Open Champions on the trophy when he was a young boy and told him when he was younger. And he Tom speaks to this that, you know, if you can ever win the national open, you would have really achieved something special because you will have won it on the toughest golf course of the year. And that would be an amazing accomplishment. And then I think back a few years ago, Jeff Ogilvy, who wanted Wingfoot in 06, I think

it was a couple of years later, and he was in the media center and the media asked him, you got a question about, well, you shot 67 today. Did you enjoy that? Did you have fun shooting at 67 in a US open? And as Jeff does, he's a pretty cerebral guy, super smart guy, he sat back and he kind of looked around the room and he said, You know, I don't think I would describe what I did today as fun or enjoyable But I really feel like I achieved something by shooting 67 on a US open golf course And I think that's what we endeavor to do. And I don't know that it's as much around a score as it is really thinking about your

strategy around the golf course. And I don't mean that as just shot making. Being able to drive your ball in the fairway and place your ball in the particular place on the putting green to where you can make a putt or if you have some adversity and you drive it in a place that you have to either chip out or you have to lay up or you short side yourself on a green. You just take your medicine and you move on and being able to overcome that adversity that a lot of players don't sense, you know, weak in and weak out wherever they play. You know, Jack Nicholas also said something

that stuck with a lot of us. He used to talk about going into the locker room of a US open early during practice round and there'd be players in the locker room complaining about the rough or the narrowness of the fairways or some of the whole locations that they were anticipating. And he'd walk through the locker room and he'd hear this and he wouldn't say anything,

but he'd hear that discussion he'd say to himself, well, I got him beat, and I got him beat, and I got him beat, because of the mental aspects of being able to control his emotion and overcome that adversity when it came. That's part of what a U.S. Open is, but when you think about that recipe, being able to make your ball move left or right or right to left, or it's height, or short shots, shots out of the rough, being able to take your medicine, placing your ball below the hole and having the courage to make that put and not knock it by, where on speedy greens it's tough to come back.

And when you achieve something like that, you really feel like you've achieved something that's special and different than anything else. Not anything that has to do with par, but has to do with that examination, that achievement that is like no other. Yeah, I'm hoping you can help me through this next point that I feel like I've learned a lot about

the highest level of tournament golf just by playing in my own level tournaments in this past year, and that, you know, the challenge of your job and finding that line to identify and really challenge the best players in the world. And I still will maintain, I don't know how many, you know, these guys are good commercials there are. It's so hard for people to truly understand how good these guys are.

But to really challenge them, make them uncomfortable. You have to get so close to the edge that, you know, I thought for the most part, Shinnecock in 2018 was just a great challenge and in a couple situations, it just pushed a hair too far, right? But that's the kind of fine line you have to dance. And so there's a mid-anternement I was playing in February. Round one, completely benign conditions, shorts and short sleeves, pretty soft, and I am not close to one of the best players in this field, not even close. And in that environment, I could content. I could be a part, I could, you know, be close.

I think I was maybe four or five off the lead after round one. And round two, the wind blew sideways. The greens firmed up. They were glassy. And I was just gripping on for dear life because I live in that, in that variance period of like I kind of need things, you know, to be stable around me and I can maybe claw my way within a, within a couple of these guys.

And I remember thinking this has to be so hard for everyone. And I saw the leaders come through at like a, you know, I'm one of the holes and I see them come through. And I see like three of the shots they hit. And it just stuck out to me. It was just like, oh, those guys are just better than me. Like they can handle these variables and I can't. So long-winded way of saying like,

how do you in setting up these champion chips find out what these variables are or what these challenges are that don't make it impossible for everyone, but make it really hard and really separate the guys at the top from the guys that are surviving in that weird variance area. Hope that made sense. It does.

It makes complete sense. I think that is our challenge. I've identified our challenge, and I, you know, there's a couple of points in there that I would have to react to what you just said. It's so great what you just said. I don't think of it as pushing it to the edge. I think there have been times where certainly I'm sure it seems as if we've done that. In Shinnecock Hills, you go back to 2018.

It is such a unique place. The weather can change so quickly and it can change the dynamic of that golf course particularly in the putting greens and it did. And you know, I'll tell you, 71 whole locations just aren't good enough. Yeah. 71 good whole locations. You know, we need 72 of them. We had one that wasn't maybe of what we would have liked to have seen it play, but you know what, there's a reason why Brooks kept go one, and part of it was what he said. Look, everybody's got to play the same hole, and let's just go play golf. And that's his mindset. I think this way has been a great U.S. Open performer for a number of years. You know, he wanted

a great US Open performer for a number of years. You know, he wanted Aaron Hills and shot 16 under and then he wins at Shinnecock and then he came so close to a 3-P last year. He just got that really tough mental outlook that he just goes and plays and takes what's in front of him and that's a US Open champion. You know, our strategy now too and that's a US Open Champion. You know, our strategy now too, and it's a good point that you make about

this concept of pushing it to the edge. I don't think that's where we want it to be. That's not the way we think about it. I think we think about the challenge of tough but fair. And I think the players, I know the players, we've talked to enough of them. Jason Gore is part of our team now, is in close contact think the players I know the players we've talked to enough of them Jason Gore is part of our Team now is in close contact with the players we have regular conversations with them like we've never had before and that's been so beneficial on so many fronts But I think you know there's a couple things I'd share it

There's always been this tradition with a US open of putting your ball in the fairway driving your golf ball in the fairway To be able to get it onto the green in a place where you can make a putt or at least two putt. And I think having that premium on accuracy off the tee is something we think a lot about. And I've talked to a number of players who won a number of years ago, the Curtis Strange, is the Tom Kites, the Lietra Vino, is the Hail Irwin's.

The Tiger Woods, that talk about that, keep that premium on accuracy. And maybe not as much on the putting greens. And that was our strategy last year, really concentrate on the premium of that on accuracy, of the tea and the strategy of shot making, but not try to do anything on the putting greens

that would be perceived as maybe not being fair, especially if the wind came up. And we worked hard on that, and I think we achieved it last year, and we'll do that this year as well. And I really put that premium on actually. You know, Curtis Strange said something to me a couple of years ago, just having a long conversation with him about the US Open. And it really struck me. He said, you know, John, players today, there are more of them that are better athletes than what I played. They're better coached.

They're better fitted. They train. Equipments better. I wonder what happens when they don't shoot under part of US Open. They're just more of them that are better now than there were 20, 30 years ago. I don't know if that's true, but I certainly made me sit back and think about that that, you know, there

are so many good players today that that again, it just gets back to putting that premium on an accuracy and then letting the golf course be the determiner above all else, as to who is a US Open Champion. The great sites we go to will take care of themselves and identifying the best players. Well, I'm curious to pick your brain there on, I think, tough but fair is kind of, I don't even know if that's official motto from the USGA, but something that gets said a lot.

And I personally don't necessarily equate unfair to being excessively difficult. And I'm wondering if you could kind, I'm wondering if I could ask you equate unfair to being excessively difficult. And I'm wondering if you could, I'm wondering if I could ask you what you think something that's unfair would be. Well, we could make things unfair very easily if we wanted to with whole locations

or a variety of things, firmness on fairways, firmness on greens. I think it really gets down to when you strike a good shot, you have a reasonable opportunity to be rewarded. And that's really what it comes down to. That's off to tea that's in the fairway or on the putting greens. We think about that a lot. I think a lot of it is perception too. We can set holes or that are

Eminently fair and might produce some good scoring, but they but they might they might they might not be perceived that way We think we think about that a lot, but I think in the end you're right. It's not We can be tough and be fair because you know if we really wanted to really to push it and and really tackle locations and put them on the edges of slopes or grow the rough to six or eight inches well we could make it impossible but it is a fine balance I think that makes the US open different is that it is a balance and I don't know that we push it right to the edge I think we want to be a pacer too from the edge, but we want it to be difficult.

The players want it to be difficult. We hear that from them. They want to win something that's special. They want to be included in that great list of champions that is Jones and Hogan and Palmer and Nicholas and Woods. That's the list that they want to be a part of. They want their name on that trophy and with those great players and all that they've achieved over the years on those great,

those great courses that were set up tough. And I think our challenges to make it fair and, and there are a lot of considerations that go into that, including the weather, you know, the weather is probably the thing that does keep me up at night because you never know what that's going to be. And it can change in a heartbeat to whether the wind picks up or you think you're going to get something and all of a sudden that thunderstorm builds and the gully washer comes down and changes the whole plane down.

You know we had that at Oakmont in 2016, where we had four inches of rain on between Wednesday and Thursday morning, and it just changed the entire dynamic of that great US Open Golf Course. But you know, you still look and it was it held its own because it's Oakmont. Yeah, and I think too, it's like for some of these, you know, again, the margins you're working in, you know, length is an issue in a lot of golf courses. And if you get the wind forecast wrong, or if it changes from morning to afternoon, it

changes directions, you know, you could have T-boxes where guys can't reach the fairways, where in the morning they could fly it easily, you know, if they had helping wind, and that's kind of what I was getting at with unfair. And it's a fine line. It's a ton of gray in that chart, gray area of the spectrum between fair and difficult. And I think it's something that a lot of golf fans struggle with in that balance. But I'm also curious as to what, what did you learn from Pebble? Your first US set up that since you've been in charge, what were some of the lessons you learned from Pebble, your first US setup that you've been in charge, what were some of the lessons you learned from last year?

Well, I had the good fortune of coming to the USA in 2011 and one of the reasons I did was the ability to work within our system. Mike Davis is a wonderful guy, a close friend of known him for a lot of years. His creativity in setting up a US Open Golf course, you know, and we're going back to Wingfoot, where he had his debut with graduated rough and some of his philosophy. Had the privilege of really working closely with him

from 2011 until last year, when Mike really handed the reins off, not just to me, but to a team that included individuals like Jeff Hall who has 30 years experience with the reins off, not just to me, but to a team that included the individuals like Jeff Hall who has 30 years experience with the USJ, Nick Price, a former World No. 1 player who was out there every day with us and set up. Jason Gore, who influenced our decisions with T's and holes and set up.

And others, our Granama Staren Bevar, Ben Campbell, who runs our senior open and walker cup in US Amateur. It's a great team. The buck stops with me, but building the philosophy of what we endeavored to do last year. But it came after a number of years of really working closely with Mike on some of these great golf courses and others on the team.

And I grew up playing a lot of competitive golf and strategy has always been something that's been fascinating to me. What do players think about in how they attack a whole? Variety is important. And we did that at Pebble. And one of the mental challenges is when you step up on a hole and maybe the wind has shifted or you see a T or a whole location that's different than you would have anticipated.

Being able to deal with that is something that is the US open as well. I think it pebble. I'll be honest with you. I think the thing that really reinforced our strategy and that I probably learned the most was just letting Pebble be Pebble. When we didn't get the wind, it was hard to not make adjustments that maybe would put a little teeth into those opening six holes that boy, the guys were just lighting up without any wind. And but we resisted that.

That was not easy. We resisted that. We didn't push the firmness. I think that's the other thing I'd say is even without the wind, we had record warm temperatures early in the week, on the weekend before, on the Monday, Tuesday, mid-80s, on the Monterey Peninsula. That's pretty. And we kept the greens in a place where, and they were so perfect, Chris Dahlhammer, the golf course superintendent, did a magnificent job. And I think the guys were wowed

by those wonderful tiny little poignia putting greens that have 60 to 70,000 rounds a year and they were perfect. We wanted to keep them perfect, going to the US open, we didn't want them to firm up too quickly. And so we kept them hydrated, but then we got the cloud cover and they didn't firm up as quickly as we would have liked, but we didn't push it. We just didn't. We didn't increase the green speed. We stayed with our plan. We had to be disciplined, do it. And that was probably the thing that I learned the most that it just we had a great US open because

we stuck with our plan and let Pebble be Pebble. You can't say Pebble if this is the answer. And you'll see why here in a second. But if you had to pick, if you had to pick a model set up US Open, from somewhat recent memory that at least that I'm 34 years old, at least that I would remember, what's the best US Open setup that you've seen? Wow, that's quite a question. I love them all. You know, they're all different.

I'm going to pin you down. I'm not going to let you get away with it. I love them all. Yeah, I hear you. The best. Well, how do you define best? Exactly. It's a hard one to quantify because to me, the best setups are those that produce

the best players. You look at 2017 at Aaron Hills when Brooks won for the first time. Well, Brooks, who? Well, didn't take long for people to, for Brooks to become a household name and you go back through US Open History. If you remember Aaron Hills that year, Zander Schoffley, who really was an unknown at the time, went through qualifying, and I found out I was staking, I think he finished four. I know he finished in the top 10. He was in contention through the week. And that fourth or maybe was six plays finish

it at Aaron Hills. He went on to have a great year, one a little bit later in the year, and now he is a household name, one of the better players in the PGA tour. So I look at it that way, and I don't know. It's just going back. I think how goodness, you know, Marion is such a treat. I'd have to think about that a little bit. I think Opmont and seeing four inches rain in the 36 hours before the first round and during the first round was, you know, that was a great test. I guess, I guess in my time since 2011, I think the one that was the most intriguing to me because it was so new and we felt so good about what we achieved was Pinehurst in 2014 because it was so unique and preparing for back-to-back US open and then the US women's

open. Going into that, there was a lot of criticism, but a lot of what is this going to look like in week two for the women and how is this going to pan out for the men. This Pinehurst number two that in 1999 and 2005 was wall to wall green, Bermuda grass, and Bill Coren-Benzchell came in a few years earlier and transformed it, restored it back to what Donald Ross had envisioned it to be with the sandy natural areas.

And you know, you really didn't, that was the rough. You didn't have typical US open rough that year. You didn't have the four or five, six inches. You didn't have graduated rough. You had sandy natural areas and fairways were fairly wide and so we really didn't know what to expect and what the outcome would be and certainly Martin Kember dominated much of the week and then you had Michelle Weak come the following week in an exhilarating win of the US women's open. I think that might have been, in my time at the US Shade, the most satisfying because not to do that for one week, especially considering the unknown with the Newer Gulf course, but

to do it for two weeks. And we had comments from the women and the media and everybody that, wow, it doesn't even look like there was anything played the week before the US women's open, Pyners did a magnificent job preparing the golf courses, the golf course agronomically and we enjoyed two great US opens back to back. But it was so unknown, we didn't know what to expect. And I think that maybe was the most gratifying part of it. And then to be able to have it come off with, you know, there was, there was some criticism about how Brown it looked and how fast it played. And,

you know, I think that's some of that is fair. And but at the same time, the messages about what we're being sent about, what golf could look like and be championship golf was, was pretty cool too. So I don't know if it was best that up, but I think it was the most gratifying during my, uh, my 10 years with the USJ. And I think that US open gets not written off amongst golf fans, but the fact that the climber won by so much and people will just immediately refer to it as a snooze fest more so than a great championship, which is unfortunate because by all accounts it was, I think pioneers is the greatest golf course, maybe that I've, I think that I've played in the United States and especially for tournament golf. I think it's the greatest separator of exactly what

I was speaking on earlier. Like you can't live in those, you know, those variant zones at Pinehurst. It will expose you whatever part of your game if it's not strong enough it will identify. So I'm glad you said that. I always go back to Oakmont. I thought that was great, especially considering what you mentioned about the four inches of rain. I just thought, you know, the shot value on that golf course,

it was, you got rewarded for a really good shot and you got punished when you hit a bad one. And there wasn't, you didn't get away with a lot and there was nothing. It was, it was just the right amount of balance, it's what I kind of went back to. But since I've, you know, I've buttered you up for 55 minutes or so, whatever it is now,

and I know I've got at least enough good content in here that if you do hang up on me for this next part, then you have a kiddo. But, you know, there was the recent Golf Di just report in recent years of a potential player boycott of the US open. I have my doubts as to how real that boycott actually was. I know a lot of players have said they wouldn't have played, but I just want to know as to

whether or not that feedback that you got from players, if that really did help inspire a reaction within the USGA. And if you can really trace any changes that have been made in the organization back to kind of things boiling over to that point. Interesting question. Well look we're human, we pay attention to those things. And I don't know that if there was a boiling point, I will say this, we knew that in 2019 at Pebble Beach,

we needed not just a good US open, we needed a great US open, we needed not just a good US Open. We needed a great US Open. We needed it. We had had some challenges in the previous years. Shinnokak, you could say was a setup challenge. Oakmont was a rules challenge. And Chambers Bay was an agronomic challenge. But you know, you look at the leaderboards

in each of those opens and they were great leaderboards. But again, we wanted it to be about the great players and about the great golf courses that we go to and just us being the background, not about us. That was the really the foundational part of what we took from all of those learning experiences. And I'll tell you the thing that has made perhaps as big a difference as anything has been our as anything has been our efforts around player relations. We are fans of these great players just like anybody else and we admire what they do. We have Nick Price on our board,

who is one of the finest human beings I've ever met. I think that a couple of years ago, it was something I felt very strongly about. I taught Nick a lot about and went to Mike Davis and said, Mike, we need somebody that 24-7, 365 can be in communication with the players. You think about the USA over the years, we really haven't had that constant communication with the players. And now you're in the age of social media and communications the way that they are and travel and you know there's people people just have loud voices and and and we needed that we needed to not only have an ear to the players and genuinely listen to what

they had to say but to also just as importantly communicate to them So just as importantly communicate to them the why behind our decisions. Why do we set up a US Open the way we do? And then kind of firstly, what do they want to see set up be? And it's been really revealing. They want to win on a golf course that tests every one of their skills as a player, especially the greatest players because they know that they have an advantage, because the more complete players think they can win a US open,

physically, mentally, ball striking wise, all of it, and they want that, they want that challenge, because it means so much more. So what does that mean? How do we define that? Where do they want to play their US open? Nick Price said something that, again, is a defining sort of a guiding

star for us. We talk about it all the time as we think about where we're going to go in the future for US Open. Pretty simple, but Nick said, you know, John, he said it to our championship committee. He didn't just say it to me. He said, it's important where the guys win their US Open. You think about that. It's very true. Gary Woodland winning at Pebble Beach last year or Dustin winning at Oakmont or Brooks winning at It's Shinnecock little on Aaron Hills. I mean, we want to go to those courses But we want to know where the players want to go and I think we've never had that ability to really have that sort of meaningful dialogue at private dialogue and having Jason Goron our staff Somebody who's walked

down the 18th ferry with a lead in a PJ tour event and has won. He's won seven times on the major professional level. He's earned the respect of his colleagues, and he's just a great guy with tremendous integrity, a wonderful family man, who loves the USJ, loves a PJ tour, loves professional golf, but his proudest moment. He will tell you, in his golf career, was announced on the first tee in representing the United States in the Walker Cup match in 1997. It was hard for him to draw the club back, he says. And I think that's a combination that is very special, that has allowed us to really develop a dialogue with the players that we've never had.

And I think, you know, a lot of what we saw in that golf digest article was something we already knew. We had heard most of that previously. That was not new to us. And it was, a lot of it, was came out of discussions with players that we had had. It just unfolded even more so with Jason. And it's just made us better. And, you know, we went into that thinking, we're not gonna flip the light switch and change this dynamic in one year. It's gonna take several years, but we're gonna work hard at it,

and we're gonna do the right things, and we're gonna have that dialogue, explain our positions, and listen to their opinions, and we're gonna be in a better place. You touched on it there with step one being Jason, but I think whether, for right, if whether it's right or wrong, the knock on the USGA amongst a lot of top players You touched on it there with step one being Jason, but I think whether for right, whether it's right or wrong, the knock on the USGA amongst a lot of top players has been, you know,

why are these 15 handicappers telling us how to play this game and being in charge? So with Jason, you know, taking, you know, having that step as well, but I probably should have led with this. So for better context, for the listeners, for, you know, the sake of this interview, but tell us about your golf background and what does qualify you to kind of be in charge of the championship setups. You know, that question just gets to the heart and soul of what we just talked about with Jason and developing that dialogue.

I never played on the PGA tour, but I did play a lot of competitive golf growing up. I played in college. I played at Brigham Young University on a national championship team, played with some great players, played professionally for three years. We won a couple of state opens, won a state amateurs and amateur, played at NCAA championships. I never won a tour event, never played on the PGA tour, got to the second stage of tour school qualifying a couple times, but I always felt like I was a pretty good player.

And then you take somebody like Jason who won at the major tour level or Nick Price or Jeff Hall, who is our championship director for the US Open and operates the day-to-day side of things inside the ropes agronomically and core set up wise who played on a couple of division three national championship teams down at a small college in Alabama with a guy by the name of Joe Durant who's been a long time tour player and a great guy. We're not 15 anti-cappers. We're pretty good players. We're not we're not of the level of those greatest players on the PGA tour, but I think our challenge is taking what we know and imparting it into what we do with the golf course, but also knowing

what we don't know and bringing in the expertise with adjacent Gournan, Nick Price and others. You know, one thing we did last year at Pebble Beach that another learning moment for me was we brought in a couple of folks that we'd never really had never done that sort of thing before. We've always sought input from the local PGA golf professional club or a Nick prize, but we sought Casey Boynes, a winner of two California amateurs and multiple amateur championships, was a 35-year caddy at Pebble Beach. And Pebble Beach had four new greens last year. We brought Casey in and he walked the golf course with us and talked about not only whole locations

that we should avoid, because it could get away from us in a wind, but also whole locations that presented a unique challenge in a subtle way. There was a whole location on the left side of the 18th green that Casey shared with us that we used at last day that there was a Very subtle ridge that was there that you really had to be Someone that had a unique talent to read a putting green and Casey pointed it out to us. We probably wouldn't have seen it

but you know that that was used and I think that that the test better. And then we brought in four PGA tour and European tour rules. Guys who have had some tour experience, slugger white, John Paramore, Mark Russell, Brian Claire. We weren't so proud that we couldn't bring some of them into our world and say, look at these whole locations, look at these T locations, what do you think? And really, they mainly just confirmed what we were thinking, which was invaluable. But they had a nugget or two that they shared and said, well, why don't you think about that? And we listened.

And I think the players noticed that, and that was a learning. I think, and we've always let folks into our world, but I think we did it a little bit deeper this last year, and I could give you other examples. And we'll continue to do that. We're going to do that at wing foot. We're not too proud to To not be open-minded to some outside Ideas and Jason and Nick have provided that and we need that expertise along with more Yeah, that was kind of the I'm glad you touched on that though

The the piece of feedback within that article that stuck out to me the most was the whoever it said You know, he'd salt 12 people on a green, you know Trying to search for a whole location and none of them were from the tour of the guys that do it every week. And I think it's a good sign, you know, that you're seeing feedback like that and specifically addressing some of those issues.

And also, just to your point, I hadn't really thought of this really until you start talking about it, but it's also an interesting spot you find yourself in and that you've played a lot of competitive golf but not all the way at the top level and that you may be a better person to identify what separates the very, very top level from a player like yourself. You know, more so than, you know, a knock on Jack Nicholas has been, you know,

the design of his golf courses can sometimes look like it's designed with, you know, the shot in mind for the best type of player, not necessarily the 25 handicap, but almost flipped the other way. It seems like you're in kind of a unique position to say, I at least have some insight as to what really separates the 50th best player from the best player. Yeah, I think that's true. And I think the way that I think about what I do is just to really try to be smart enough to listen to what others share. You know, the Nick Price is adjacent, Gore is a Jeff Halls, the Slugger Whites.

And then decipher from that how we go forward and build a strategy and define tough but fair. And really, I think in the end, really create something that is special that's unlike anything else. And I think it does get back to what Nick Price said at our Championship Committee meeting two and a half years ago. It's important where guys when their US open

it all starts with the golf course. It's like open-out or wing foot. As I said, open-outs another one. The way they maintain that golf course weekend and week out, you could dial up a US Open in two weeks at op-mont and go play there. It's just that type of golf course. Wing foot's that way. Most every place we go to, Shinnecock. And I think it starts with that site selection and really those iconic revered sites that just take care of identifying the best players as they always have. And just being smart enough to let that be, I keep saying that, but it is so important.

And just let the golf course and these great players be the show. I think more than anything that's our philosophy. When I say let Wingfoot be Wingfoot or Pebble Beach be pebble beach. It just means being on that great golf course and then just letting the players go play and sticking with our plan. And to me, that's exciting. And I think we've got a good path forward. I think we're listening to the players and have that dialogue to explain what we're trying to do. If they do have a question, we're on it immediately. And I'm excited about the future. Yeah, that golf digest article was something that,

you know, was kind of a seminal moment. You know, we felt some momentum after that to where, I think the anonymous nature of that was something that even a lot of players told us, wow, that's going too far. And it was really kind of an interesting dynamic where things kind of shifted the other way where you could just feel it within the USJ that this is with Jason with Pebble Beach, it was just we were set up to really have a have a good US open and we had not just a good one but a great one.

And the weather will keep me up at night, but you look at this last week at Wingfoot, it was perfect. Low 80s, there was predicted thunderstorms on Saturday, maybe Sunday, they didn't come. Well, we're hopeful that we'll get that in September. And if we do, boy, people are gonna have a reintroduction to Wingfoot and how great it is. You know, a lot of the young players, they hadn't didn't experience it in 2006 and I can't wait to see what they think of one of our most iconic venues.

I've got about 50 more questions for you that I think we'll have to come back for a part two. Maybe we do this closer to the US Open, but I got through the main core of what I wanted to, wanted to chat with you about. And I do want to come, you know, we'll do a separate one. Maybe it's the next time you come on to talk about US women's open and all the considerations that have gone into that.

And Country Club at Charleston last year and how a December one at Champiants is going to play and all that good stuff. Because there's a lot to be excited about. And we didn't even talk USAAM a whole bunch of stuff. So, but I will let you go, John. Thanks so much for joining us. I know our listeners will appreciate a lot of the color on a lot of these topics and hope through it again

sometime. Well, I'd love to. I'd love this stuff. And you're gracious to have me on. I would say one of the things we didn't talk about is qualifying that I would just offer up. And I don't know if you have the opportunity to work it in. And that is you'll see, you see in what we've done with the exemption categories and what we've created, you'll see amateurs in the field. And we've created a pathway for amateurs. We've looked back over five years in an average of 15 amateurs a year over the last five years. And so that pathway was very important to us. We'll have six fully exempt ones, US Amateur Champion, British Amateur Champion, so on. But we've created a pathway through the World Amateur Golf R that amateur presence in the US opens are very important. We're excited

about that. And looking at the data again, we rest on it and having amateurs in the US opens a great tradition. And it'll hold true at wing foot. Yeah, I glanced over that. And then the point is well that the rest of the field will be we filled in through the official world golf rankings as of August 23rd, if I'm reading that right. It's correct. Yeah. We look forward to seeing how that plays out and how the quote unquote qualification goes here

on a lot of these events here, the remaining months and how the field ends up. But again, thank you, John, for joining and I hope to do it again sometime. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Cheers. Good night, club. Be the right club today. Yes. Cheers. Give it a big applause.

Be the right club today. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different? I Expect anything different