No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 328: Joseph Bramlett

Episode Date: July 8, 2020

Joseph Bramlett came out of the gates firing as golf started back up, finishing T2 and T3 in his first two Korn Ferry events. We chatted with him about his career path from Stanford, missing 4.5 years with back injuries (!), being the first black golfer to graduate from Q-School in 25 years, the current racial tensions in the United States, plus some great Tiger stories. He also shares his perspective on Bryson, what it would take for him to be a perennial player on the PGA Tour, and a ton more. Appreciate Joseph's perspective and willingness to speak on all topics. Would love to have him back some time.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. and we'll get into a lot of the ups and downs of injuries. And it's pretty wild story. And he has obviously some, he came out and spoke out about the racial issues lately in the United States recently had some great comments.

And I wanted to have him on to discuss some of those and we chat about that for a little while in the back half as well. It's my seem a bit off topic, but I bet you didn't know that the reigning Miss America receives an honorary post with the Children's Miracle Network Hospitals during her tenure.

You might ask why that might be relevant. Well, former Miss America cure addiction who we met at the Callaway launch event last year is an ambassador for Jack and Barbara Nicholas's Play Yellow Initiative. You may have heard us mention it. Last week, Play Yellow supports the 10 million kids treated at Children's Miracle Network Hospitals each year.

Calloway has limited edition PlayYellow truvas ball and $1 from every dozen of the Crumpsoft PlayYellow truvas is sold. We'll be donated to the PlayYellow campaign. So when you buy the PlayYellow truvas golf ball, you know how much I love the truvas. You are a part of Calloway's donation to Children's Miracle Network Hospital.

So for more on PlayYellow, visit calawaygolf.com and playyellow.org. Oh, and Calaway would like to congratulate listener Matt Salter, who's slid in our DM to let us know he broke par for the first time with the help of his Maverick Sub-Zero driver, which is also the same driver that our own at Carrito place. So congrats to Matt.

And without any further delay, here is our interview with Joseph Bramlett. First thing, I just take me straight to the Albatross, man. The corn fairy tour is sometimes famous for, you know, some scoring errors, and it's always hard to get real hyped when you see something come through. But you actually did make an Albatross on the 72nd hole to tie the lead of a corn fairy event.

I remember that right. Yeah, it was unbelievable. I wasn't even in a great spot off the tee. I was kind of stymied behind a tree and I had a few yards to work with and yeah, I had a good round coming and I was kind of closing well. I made a few birdies down the stretch and thought if I got it up there on the green in a good place and I had a chance for Eagle or Birdie. I could sneak in atop 10.

And yeah, it was just an unbelievable moment. I had a big high fade up over the trees. It kind of came down on the green. And in the air, I was like, that actually looks pretty good. And after that, it was pretty much just blind luck in the ball, ended A.P. from the hole. It took a couple hops rolled in. And it was just completely

surreal. There was nobody around, there was no photographers, no fans, it was just, it was like a really blank, weird moment of like, wow, did that actually just happen. And my playing partners, like, threw their arms up in the air, and yeah, I looked at my caddy, and I was just like just like do nobody is going to believe this like everyone i'm gonna have a big text on my phone that like they messed up my score like what i actually shoot and uh... yeah was it was incredible usually it's rounds with your buddies when you do something that you'd say all

nobody's gonna believe this but seventy second uh... whole of a tournament you you think that you have uh... you know enough witnesses or somebody be around to see that. You could see it go in from where you were standing? Yeah, I could see it go in. I mean, we were 235 yards out. So you're always in the back of your mind. Did that actually go in or is that long?

I'm just not seeing it right. But it definitely looked like it went in. And my playing partners had already started walking up once my ball was in the air. And they both confirmed it. No, that's in the hole. And I was, yeah, I was beside, I mean, it's a weird moment because like we're social distancing. I like, wouldn't give my caddy a big hug, but like, we're not really supposed to touch. And I mean, there's just there's nobody around who was, it was very surreal and odd, but it was also incredible.

I mean, walk off double legal and my caddy pulled out his phone and sure enough, we were tied for the lead. I was like, no way. So you played, you finished T2 and T3 in these first two corn fairy events and several PGA tour guys dropped down to play these corn fairy events. What was a rationale there? I mean, I'm guessing it's kind of obvious with having months off with nothing to play and you weren't able to get into those first few fields of that event. But was it a given for you that you were going to go down and play those events here in Jacksonville? So yes and no, I definitely was going to compete those two weeks because I had been off for about three months at that point. So I was actually fourth alternate for colonial. And so I went to Texas Monday and Tuesday and kind of waited around to see if everyone passed their tests and

Sure enough everyone that was there passed and was was gonna play so then we flew Tuesday night over to Sawgrass and Decided to play the corn fairy that week and then I was definitely gonna play the next week as well I mean corn fairy tour has a great competition And it was the perfect place for me to kind of get my feet wet and get back into those competitive situations and kind of prepare for the rest of the summer. Well, and then you came back and you played Travelers and Rocket Mortgage.

You missed the cut this last week at Rocket Mortgage, and I do have, I promise I've got a ton of questions for you about your career, but I need to know from a fellow professional, what do you make of what Bryson is doing right now? You're coming straight off this golf course. You saw what he did to it. Can you please help us try to understand this? I mean, he's the guys, I mean Phil started it, but he's dropping bombs. I mean, he's making all of us reconsider what we're doing.

I mean, it's amazing to me how he's been able to blend the power of long drive with accuracy. Right. I've fought for several years that as many athletes are on the PGA tour, I really don't think we have reached our potential in terms of the speed that we can create. And I definitely think that you're going to see a trend of guys starting to swing it faster like what Bryson's doing but for him to do it this quickly and to hit it as straight as he's hitting it is is pretty good man like it's it definitely it makes me think I can step it up a little bit because it's it's golf looks really easy when you're hitting short irons in a par five. Well it's it's such a cautionary tale

though for you know any amateur coming out into the pro ranks, not to get caught up chasing distance. It seems like, and I just threw this out there, I was like, is this the most successful chasing of distance ever? Because I mean, how many horror stories I'm sure you have been very close to. Completely. Right? Yeah, and so there's so many factors that follow that.

I mean, chasing distance sounds great, but then what you have to be very careful of is one physical injury. And I'm sure Bryson's on top of all those things, but just how much is your body able to take the stress that he's starting to put on it? And then further down that line, I mean, the guy's wedge game has been fantastic the last three weeks and to be able to blend that type of physical exertion and power on a driver and then still be able to harness it back and control this clubhead speed. I mean, last week he stuffed that wedge on 18 to three feet like it was nothing. And I mean, that's a very challenging thing to do from an athletic standpoint to be able to put that much force in on a T-shot

and then completely adjust on a 90-100 yard wedge shot and have that kind of touch and that kind of feel. So I think it will be really interesting to see long-term how he's able to manage it. And I mean Bryson seems like a really bright guy and he seems like he takes care of all of the variables. But this five-week stretch he's been on is pretty darn impressive. People are probably sick of us talking about it, but it is a very... How can you not?

I mean, it's enormous, yeah, it's an enormous story. And golf, I've said this, like I don't think there's anyone else that could have done this, that could go get in the lab and then six months later be hitting the ball, however many percent further he's hitting it. So you're exact point, people are however many percent further he's hitting it.

So you're exact point, people are under rating how straight he's hitting it. But yeah, I'm asking anyone and everyone about it. Because I thought Rory's comments about it after playing with him. I mean, he's flat-out-set. I told Harry, holy shit, that was unbelievable. If you are making the number one player in the world,

literally amazed, then you're doing something that is maybe never really fully been done in golf before. Well, yeah, if you look at the times that this has happened, I mean, you got John Daly when he came out in the early 90s and then Tiger at Augusta 97 and everybody was just blown away about what they were able to do with their drivers.

And Bryson has gone from definitely not one of the longest hitters out here to six months later. Like you said, everybody's like, holy shit. What are you doing? This is incredible. Well, it's one thing to come out and be a prodigy from the start and hitting it far, but to transform yourself into one is one that's the most amazing part. It's not even the fact, I'm not amazed at how far he hits it. I'm amazed that he's able to transform it at this level and have this immediate success. But, so take us back for, you know, for people that maybe are not as familiar with you,

let's start with your, maybe your Amateur career in golf, we can kind of work your way into your pro career, but you're 32 now and I know we've got a lot to cover from an injury standpoint in the mid, you know, mid 2010s and whatnot, but go backwards, you played at Stanford and kind of take us to some of your Amateur... amator highlights in your transition to pro golf yes so i started at stanford uh... freshman in two thousand six and uh... uh... yeah i grew up in northern california so stanford was a dream school for me play a lot of amator golf in northern california which i love growing up i thought that really shaped me as a golfer.

I didn't play a whole lot of junior tournaments, but my parents got me into playing Northern California golf association events really young, and I got to play with guys that were a lot older, a lot of greedy veterans, and so I learned a lot from them, and then I went to Stanford, and I was able to be a part of our national championship winning team my very first year and so I mean I rolled right into college and thought we were gonna just win nationals every year and it was gonna be an easy ride. Yeah so I was a great highlight and then I ended up getting hurt my sophomore year so I hurt my right wrist. We were doing some wind sprints, it was a rainy day and we were running outside, running back inside, and I just

clumsily slipped and fell on my wrist, and I had a bone bruise, it cost me six months. Unfortunately, it was, you know, at the end of January, so it cost me the rest of my sophomore year. My junior year in school, I actually unfortunately hurt that same wrist. I got I got flipped off my bicycle, trying to go turn in one of my finals around Thanksgiving. And that of course you're going to believe this. I asked I reached out to coach Ray just for what's another it's to ask you. And he literally said, only nugget I have is his clumsy mess,

falls off bikes, slips on course, et cetera. That is the only note he gave me. Hey, man, I mean, we are who we are, right? Like I mean, I'm who we are, right? Like, that is, I mean, I'm a decent athlete, but I still don't know how big my feet are, and I'm tripping over things 24-7, and I'm never riding a bicycle again.

It's just who I am. But yeah, I got flipped off my bike, and it cost me 13 months, so that was pretty tough. Yeah, it was emotionally a tough period in college, because I came in, I got flipped off my bike and it cost me 13 months. So that was pretty tough. Yeah, it was emotionally a tough period in college because I came in I was a second team all-american my freshman year. We won a national championship My sophomore year. I missed the second half and I watched my team on the internet lose by a shot And so that just drove me nuts and then I start coming back and then I hurt myself again So then fast forward to my senior year.

I had a nice spring to my senior year. I started playing in January that year and it was a little up and down, but I closed out my career. We lost in the first round of match play at Nationals. And qualified for the US Open a couple of days later, which was amazing. So I was able to graduate. I was able to play the US Open at Pebble Beach, which was

thrill of a lifetime to do that as an amateur. Yeah, I continued playing amateur tournaments that summer. I was able to win the Northeast Am, which was a huge thrill for me. It was my first big amateur win. And then, yeah, I lost in the, I think, the round of 16 maybe at Chambers Bay and the USM that summer and then I turned professional shortly after. Well, it's going to say, do you only try to qualify for the US Open when it's at Pebble?

Yeah, so that's actually like one of my things is that I'm really not interested when it's other years, I just played. No, it's weird how it's turned out. I played two US Open's, they were both right in my backyard at Pebble Beach I certainly wish I had played a lot more by now but the two I played were just unbelievable experiences I mean Pebble Beach is my favorite place in the whole world so the way that's worked out has been really really cool. You know it's getting ready you

know doing some prep for this interview I went back and found some just you to looking for you to pilots and they have your putt that you made on the whatever the sixth round. I don't know how many holds that is. I wanted to say 72nd hole, but the six other schools in 2010, you got it to clinch and lock up your card. I was like, man, I kind of miss qualifying school. I miss seeing guys.

I know the court and jury finals have something similar, but qualifying school was there was a pressure on that final putt to earn your card. Yeah, there absolutely was. I mean that was a back to me at the time straight out of college. That was a moment of a life side for me. I was I viewed my time at Stanford as a time to prepare for professional golf and Q school post Stanford was kind of that first opportunity for me and yeah, I mean that day at Orange County National was just one of the coolest days of my life. I mean, it was my first chance to ever get a PGA tour card.

And I had about a six footer on my last hole. I had been on quite a run going into that. I made five birdies in a row on my back nine, and I was like really making a push. And to be able to seal that was just a huge just emotional thrill for me. That was really really cool. What was it like coming out on the PJ Tour in 2011? I mean, what was, were you overwhelmed by the whole, by everything that was going on there? Did you feel very ready for it or what were some of those lessons you learned in that first year?

Yeah, at the time I certainly thought I was ready for it. Looking back I think I was definitely not prepared. Kind of like you said, I also really miss that Q-school aspect of being able to go from nowhere straight to the PGA tour at the end of the year. However, being one of those cases, I think I would have benefited greatly from a year on the corn fairy tour.

Right. My first year on the PGA tour was essentially my first year playing professional golf. So I mean I was still learning how to book flights, like what a hotel reservation looks like, how to get a rental car, like just all these very like tedious little things that you don't think about. And then on top of that when you're playing on the PGA tour, I mean you're on the road six, seven, eight weeks in a row quite often. And in college we were on the PGA tour, I mean, you're on the road six, seven, eight weeks in a row quite often.

And in college, we were on the road for like three days and then we come home for two weeks. And so I'd play a tournament and then I'd have a lot of time to come home and practice and then get ready for the next tournament, the schedule and the travel and all of the outside of golf things were a really big surprise and adjustment for me. And so that definitely showed in my play and it showed in kind of my development. But yeah, once I kind of got that figured out,

I think I got my footing under me and I started to have a little more success. At age 32 now, what's something that if you're going back 10 years to that time period? What's the first thing you would tell like 22, 23 year old you in that scenario? Man, it's just patience. And it's so hard because everybody tells you

when you're that age, but you just don't want to hear it. I mean, I at 22, 23, you just don't have patience. I mean, you're, you want it all right now, right then. And I put a lot of pressure on myself. And I really wanted to have that success right away. And when I wasn't having that success early in my rookie year, you just, you get frustrated and the patients just windals really quickly. So I think whatever I told myself, would have told myself a 22, I might not have listened

to to be honest, but if I could actually put my 32 year old brain in that body and implement that the patients and understanding of where I'm at in my career, I brain in that body and implement that the patients and understanding of where I'm out of my career, I think that would have been pretty cool. Well, before we move on too fast from Stanford, one of our guys wanted me to ask you about, is it the 12th hole? What, what, what chose the hole at Stanford that has the tree in the middle of the family? Absolutely, yeah, it's number 12. I mean, you staffed two of them, they're huge, yeah.

Are you in support of trees in the middle of the fairway? Can you take us to that whole for people that maybe haven't seen it what do you think of it yeah so the twelve all stand for it i get asked about this constantly and it's probably about a four hundred and sixty uh... part four and there's just these massive oak trees right in the middle of the fairway and the fairway is extremely wide so there's a little bit of room on the left and a little bit of room on the right to play around them am i in support of trees in the middle of the fairway? No except for the one that's on 12 at

Stanford because I grew up playing that golf course and it just seems normal to me and it just seems like a part of the golf course and I always play that whole pretty well. So I think that's probably the one instance. I played a little bit in Asia when we were in college and they had a lot of holes like that and I was probably not in support of it at the time because it was so new to me and I didn't know what to do with them, but yeah, it's a wild hole.

I think about that hole and I think about that T-shirt off number one a lot. That's one of the wilder. I mean, it's not over a road. It's over like a four-way intersection there. It's a major intersection in the university and there's a huge barn all along the left-hand side and you're way up there in the air and you're just trying not to kill anybody or anything. Are there horror stories? I mean, I'm guessing it's not too much from the guys that played on the team, but for anyone else that goes and plays out there and about and hitting

balls down onto the road right below it. Oh, yeah, if you go in the pro shop and talk to some of those guys that work in the shop, they've dealt with a lot of a lot of tough afternoons of guys who have topped balls off the off the tee and got a car on the road. Or I mean, if guys spray it way off to the right, you can end up hitting the driving range, which doesn't even seem anywhere near and play, but there's definitely been some bad afternoons out there. Quick break here, you guys know what I'm about to say that every golfer needs a range finder that they can trust

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the i guess the source of your your next series of injuries that happen i believe in twenty thirteen which is a back injury what what specifically did you injured with the back how did you injure it and uh... how did you when did you know you had an issue thankfully this one's a little less embarrassing at least yeah my my lower back injury my tour of disc in my low back right about my L4 L5 and I just basically I hadn't really ever had back pain growing up and I was warming up for a tournament in Salt Lake City July 1st, 2013.

It was actually on a Wednesday and I did a little chipping. I went to the range to go start my practice session and I set up to like a little 40-yard pitch shot and I tried to take the club back and my body just got stuck and I just felt like this searing really hot pain all over my body and I couldn't move. It turned out that I had torn a disc in my low back. It was forced to withdraw from the event and kind of let me down a very long rehab process of rehabbing my body and my swing

and figuring out what the problem was and how to fix it. And yeah, it was a tough period. Well, yeah, you say that and it's easy to kind of glance over it as a tough period, but how long of a period are we talking here? Because just, you know, I go pull up your career page and I see this big gap of years in it and you got to kind of dig to figure out what, if that was just, I couldn't, at first

I was like, did he lose status and then I read about the injury and man, that's a long period of time, not only to not be playing competitively, but just to like go through life with that much back pain is not very fun. No, it was really hard to be honest. I, in summation, I missed four and a half years of competitive golf. She's.

Yeah, and it was tough. Like you said, I had my rookie year in 2011 on the PGA tour, finished like a hundred and ninety-fifth on the money list, had a very poor year. Then I went to the corn fair year the next year and I was inside the top 25 the whole season and I came up a shot short the very last event. I got passed by like three thousand dollars and went from twenty-fourth entering the event, twenty-seventh maybe at the end of the event. So I just missed on getting my PJ tour

card back. I worked really hard that next off season looking forward to 2013 as a year. I do really well on the corn fairy and in the middle of the year my back went out and yeah, the first probably six to eight weeks I was just laying on the floor at home. I wasn't able to do much of anything. I couldn't live a normal life. I was struggling just to even stand up to go brush my teeth or walk through the kitchen to get food. You know, I had to have people take care of me and just trying to get around was not possible.

So I saw a lot of different doctors and spine surgeons. I mean, I actually, I saw 15 different spine surgeons. And- Oh my God. 15? Yeah. Well, I just could not figure out why... So, I mean, I saw 15 spine surgeons over the course of about a year and a half. And every time I would start to play it off together, as my body would start to heal a little

bit, literally within five to ten shots of getting back to the driving range, I was on my butt again, laying on the ground. And my back would start to heal a little bit away from the golf course, and so then I would go try to test it again, and it would just go really, really poorly. So I saw 15 different spine surgeons. The first 14 said I was not a candidate for microdisectomy. The only surgery they could do for me would be to install some metal rods into my low back, but that would eliminate all range of motion and turn in my golf career.

And so that was an option that was not what I wanted to do at that age. And the 15th guy said he'd open me up and take a look. And I really started considering that for a little while, more out of desperation than intelligence. And thankfully my family and my girlfriend kind of talked me out of it and told me that you don't need to be doing exploratory back surgeries right now. You kind of need to stay the course and you need to keep working through this.

And shortly thereafter, I was able to find my current physical therapist and my current golf instructor and we were able to figure out a program to kind of reconstruct how I move my body and then how I move my body in my golf swing. And we changed the clubs I play, we went to longer shafts, we changed the way I swung and cleaned up a lot of my footwork and hit work. And thankfully we were able to get to the end of it. Four and a half years was a really long period and I learned a lot of patience through that, but thankfully we've gotten here.

Well yeah, that's, I was again ready to ask about what you actually did to a golf, but the way you laid out there is hadn't even thought of all the things you'd have to consider. But do you do feel, I mean, do you currently battle anything with the back still? I mean, from how serious that sounded and sounds, I can imagine that that ever truly 100% goes away. You're right. So it doesn't ever completely go away. I'm able to play golf pain free right now, which is amazing. But I have to constantly monitor myself because I've got 25 to 28 years worth of bad habits built in that I just always want to start to gravitate towards. I mean my back injury essentially came from swinging the club poorly and putting a lot of stress on my low back. I had bad footwork. I didn't use my hips well and I had a lot of side bend as I got to impact. So I just have to constantly monitor myself from falling into those habits and I have to stay really

diligent about my physical therapy routine. So I got a lot of warm up stuff. I do every morning and a lot of cool down stuff. I do every night. But as long as I stay on top of everything, I'm able to play and play pain-free, which I mean is incredible and something I'll never take for granted again. Were you, I mean, were you close to giving up on golf at any time period during, during the I would say that I had moments where I wondered if I was ever going to figure it out. And I had moments that I may four and a half years of the long time. And throughout that period, there was a lot of times where I would start to make progress. And then I would hit a wall. And we'd start to go backwards again. And so, you know, I was pretty relentless through those periods

for a while, but once I kind of got to year three and I was running into some issues, I definitely started a question if it was ever actually going to work out. But for whatever reason, I don't know what it is, but since kindergarten, I've just known that I want to be a professional offer on the PGA tour.

This is who I am. This known that I want to be a professional offer on the PGA tour. This is who I am. This is what I want to do. And I definitely was not considering anything else. Thankfully, with some great guidance from great therapists and a great coach, I was able to kind of get the ship right and was able to resume my career. But yeah, it was a tough journey. So for someone like you with your current status,

what is this shake up to the PGA tour season? What's it been like for you? I mean, no matter what the tour did with how they addressed status and fields and everything when they got back, somebody was gonna get on the short end of the stick. And I think your class of guys, like Cornfairy graduates, is probably, and where you are on the priority list, probably has been hit the hardest yet. no one's losing status this year, so there is some kind of

some cushion to fall back on. But how do you view overall how this has shaken out for you personally? Yeah, for me personally, I mean, I'm just thrilled to be back playing golf this summer. When the COVID stuff kind of kicked off for our country in March. I didn't expect us to be back this fast. So I'm really just thankful we're back playing again from my status and stuff like that. It's been tough and I didn't know if I was gonna get into any tournaments this summer,

because if the big guys wanna play, I'm lower on the priority list. So like you said, I was playing pretty well going into this and I think I had kind of moved up to about a hundred on the FedEx. And so I had a chance to get into colonial based on my number and that didn't quite shake out. And it's it's a great kind of safety net that at least we will all still maintain status next year. Should we not get a lot of opportunity to play this summer, but you know, there's still a lot of incentives on tour to finishing top 125. And in terms of what my priority would be next year, if I can finish top 125.

So, that would still be a really big barrier to get to and help, you know, the next progression of my career because playing in the current corn fairy category and playing in this category next year is tough because you can't plan out your schedule. You're really just your subject to playing whenever you know your number can get in. So you kind of always have to constantly stay ready. You really can't plan out any breaks. You can't try to really peek for anything. You just have to always stay sharp. So it's a great safety net that the tours provided us because I think a lot of guys would have lost their card just because they didn't have tournaments to play this summer, but there's still a lot of incentive to play well and to continue moving up.

Yeah, I guess, if I were to rephrase what I said, I think the top corn fairy guys probably got it the worst and that they don't have a chance to graduate to the PGA tour this past year because at least the guys in your category are getting a whole another years worth of starts next year, which, you know, what you earned. So I think it probably had to fall out this way. I don't fault the tour at all. And like I said, it was, it was somebody was going to get the short end of the stick, but I think it's, it's, it's, they've addressed it. Cause I was, as soon as we saw this, we're like, man, those guys that are accounting on a lot of these starts this summer are not going to get them because now the JTs are playing all of these events and whatnot.

So yeah, it's interesting. It's going to be a next year's Corn Fairy finals and next year's Corn Fairy season, I guess this whole wrap round season is going to be wild because it is going to get somehow even more competitive for those graduating spots. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you're going to see a whole lot of nerves and a lot of other things kicking in because guys are going to, they'll be waiting for it for a long time, which is part of this tough situation.

Well, I was ready to address this next line of questioning by saying it's an awkward topic to discuss. It's awkward scenario for me, but I wanted to stop myself when I was preparing that and saying I thought, I'm not sure if awkward is the right word because if I feel that, how much someone like you must be feeling in this scenario and the current racial tensions that have been going on, you spoke so wonderfully about those issues in your first event back. I do want to dig into those. For those that aren't familiar, you are one of the few black golfers out there on the professional tour.

What has the last month, month and a half been like for you as a black golfer on the PGA tour? Yeah, the last month and a half, I think just being a black man in America has been an emotional time. There's been a lot going on. Obviously, the George Floyd incident kicked off a lot of things and a lot of protests, a lot of backlash and a lot of people speaking up in this country. And I think being one of the few black offers on the PGA tour right now, it's given us a little bit of a platform and it's given us a line of questioning that isn't always easy to talk about, but I think is very necessary to talk about. And I think that I'm in a unique place

right now where I have the ability to have conversations with people like you about what's going on and how we can have discussions to try to create change in my category. That's hopefully in golf. And I hope to continue to grow the game as much as we can. Is it something that you can separate out how you went to it there? And I kind of wanted to start with what it's been like to be one of the few professional black golfers because the kind of the golf world has kind of turned to you to speak on this. And I separately wanted to discuss just what it's been like to be black as you go through

this time of it's a lot. I imagine there's a lot of emotion in it is the point I'm meeting. But is do you feel pressure in any way that like the golf world puts pressure on you to speak in some ways on behalf of the black community? Have you felt that at all? To be honest, I felt opportunity. I really have not felt pressure. I feel like the PGA tour has done an amazing job just

in the last month and a half of trying to increase the conversation, to increase attention to the social justice issues that are going on, and to find ways to grow the game and to grow people's minds about these topics. And so I don't feel pressure. I mean, these are things I've grown up with and I've learned about a lot growing up. And now I feel like people want to talk and discuss them. And so I feel like this is a great time and a great opportunity to have that dialogue and to try to expand people's minds and try to get

people to understand what are some of the struggles that black people go through currently today and some of the things that might limit them in the game golf. How have you, I guess, have you personally experienced racism in golf in your past or in recent recent times and recent times have you have you experienced it and if so how so? Yeah I would say my experiences with racism especially in golf have been more implicit than

explicit I mixed and so I'm black and I'm white and you know my my skin color is a little bit as much lighter than a lot of guys and so I think in some ways I have been able to pass, but I have definitely had some instances growing up with some junior golf organizations and some amdor things that have happened. But that being said, when it comes to where I'm at right now,

I've had the full support of the PGA tour. I have not had any of the instances that the Charlie Sifards have gone through, that the Jim Dents have gone through, that even Tiger has gone through. Thankfully, I have had a lot of help from those guys and kind of progressing the sport already, but I think that even though I haven't had a lot of explicit encounters with racism on the golf course, I think that we can still, I still have an opportunity to help move this forward. One thing that stuck out to me when watching some of those Q-school clips from a decade

ago was that pointed out on the broadcast. I believe the first black player to graduate through Q-school back when that was the direct pat to the PJ Tour. It stuck out to me how much how you perked up when you were asked about that and got a chance to speak on that as if you took a lot of pride from that. Can you kind of take us to kind of how you felt

in regards to that, how you felt as being the first black player to graduate through QSchool in 25 years? Yeah, it was a really big honor. Ironic earlier that week, I had read a golf week magazine, and on the cover of it was Adrian Stilis, who 25 years before it was, had been the last black player to get through Q-school. And so it was just an interesting time, kind of, how that played out.

And then I had the opportunity to thankfully break that streak. But at the time, Tiger was the only African American on the PGA tour. And so I took a lot of pride and it was a great honor to start increasing that number again. And I thought that it had been far too long since another black guy had made it to the PGA tour. And it was a very cool moment for myself and for my family just to help start pushing that trend back again. And on that note, are you surprised that there are one that there hadn't been any more black offers since 1985 and even since then that there aren't more than there currently

are on the PGA tour? Does that surprise you at all? I would not say it surprises me, but I also think that you're starting to see a change on the PGA tour. I mean, in 2010, it was just tiger and then I was able to get my card in 2011. But since then, Harold Mariner has gotten his card. He's done very, very well for himself. Cam Champ has gotten his card.

He's done very, very well for himself. Tony Fienau, another man of color has done really well for himself on the PGA tour and represented the US and several team events. And so I think you're starting to see the dynamic of the PGA tour start to change a little bit, which is a great thing. I mean, historically, golf is a pretty white game to be straightforward with you. Historically, there have not been a lot of African Americans that have had a lot of success in the game of golf. And you haven't seen a lot of people of color dominate the game of golf. So I think that now you are starting to see a shift and a strong trend towards changing that. And I don't know if golf is ever going to be,

is ever going to look like football or basketball, I don't know. But I think that given the presence that we have right now on the PGA tour and the opportunity that we have, I think we can start to inspire a lot of kids who might not have been, who might not have felt as welcome at the golf course and might not have felt as welcome at the golf course, and might not have felt as drawn to play golf, and we might be able to start changing that. One of the things I feel like I've definitely learned in the last few months is that, you know, just not being racist is not okay, that it shouldn't just be minorities that are actively fighting racism, and the conversation when it would come up, I would just kind of look and say,

like, well, I'm not racist. This isn't about me. And I think that is not, there's a lot that has come from the last month, month and a half. And I think that for a lot of people, that realization has happened. And we're working on a few things internally here

to kind of put our efforts where our mouth is. And we're not ready to detail just exactly what those are, as you are yet. But in your mind, for two-part question, for someone like me, what can I do? What can we do as a group to help this movement forward? And what can people listening to this do to help encourage more black people and African-Americans in the game of golf?

Yeah, that's a fantastic question. And I think what you guys can do and are doing is great because I think you have a great voice engulf. And I think that simply raising the conversation is a great avenue for you guys to help increase the word, increase the conversation and increase people's awareness about it. What can the average person do? I think a lot of it comes with golf comes down to access and availability and I think a lot of young kids of color simply don't have the access to learn golf to play golf. Most people's first interactions with golf is through their family.

And either their grandpa takes them out to their country club or their dad takes them to play or their mom, but like this, it's more of a familial thing. And a lot of families of color don't have a history with the game of golf. And some of that has to do with access. Some of that has to do with just history and being welcome at the golf course. And so I think that if people can channel their efforts towards trying to increase opportunity for people to be introduced to golf, people that historically would not have been introduced to golf, I think that's a really big step.

I mean, I think the first he's done a great job to a certain extent. I think there's a lot of organizations that are trying to bring golf to more inner-city youth. And I think that is where the change starts. And then I think 15, 20 years from now is when you really start to see the effect of that. Exactly. Well, I don't know if this is a transition question or not. And I want, but I do know that, and I've seen some stuff

that you have a relationship and have had a relationship with Tiger Woods for a long period of time. What was the origin of that, and kind of what does that relationship you still maintain to this day? Yeah, so I got to know Tiger when I was at Stanford. I mean, the first time I met Tiger, I was 15 years old. I played on his foundation team

that played a junior world every year at Torrey Pines. So I don't know if he remembers with that. I was the first time I met him. It was when I was 15. And then when I got to Stanford, our coach Conrad, was teammates with Tiger. And so we'd play a college event at Iowa Earth every year. Tiger would come out and watch us in the practice rounds.

He's out of so-and-so for dinner one night. I mean, it was unbelievable. It was like the coolest experience because this guy that was all of our hero and at the top of the world was sitting there on his couch, like having dinner with us and just like answering questions and talking like we were hanging out. So Tiger was just amazing to us when we were in school at Stanford and thankfully we've kind of continued that relationship since. I played a couple of practice rounds with him at the US Open in 2010.

I've certainly stayed in a little bit of contact with him out on a tour. I wouldn't say that, you know, we're super close and we talk often. That definitely wouldn't be true. But, you know, when I see him, where it's always, you know, give him a hug. Hello. How you doing? He was a big supporter of me through my back injury. Help me get back. And I was able to receive an exemption this year, the Charlie Cipher exemption into his

tournament down in Riviera. So I've had a great relationship with Tiger and yeah, I look forward to seeing a lot more of him down the road. Do you remember what you, what you would ask him that night at dinner or what anybody asked him? We asked him, we asked him everything. and it was probably the last stuff he wanted to talk about it was all golf we were like all right Tiger you know when you're in the Canadian open in the right bunker are you aiming at that flag and then feel like okay well let's say you're playing a tournament like what's your strategy

like are you trying to hit it in the fairway every time you trying to hit as far off the tee as you can? I mean, we just hammered him for hours. I think the biggest thing I walked away from was just how confident he was in his putting. Because he told us, he said, if I have 30 feet or closer for 72 straight holes for birdie, I'm gonna shoot six under every day.

I'm gonna shoot 24 under every tournament, and I'm gonna win six under every day. I'm gonna shoot 24 under every tournament and I'm gonna win by 10 every week. And I was like, wow, like 30 feet and closer, you're gonna make six of them around, like, that blew my mind. So I learned a lot, you know, just kind of hanging out with them. But the poor guy, we just hammered him

on golf nerd questions for three hours. In a private setting like that, does he speak differently than he does when addressing the media? Did it feel more laid back in that regard? Absolutely. Well, I think it was more laid back for him. The rest of us were crazy nervous. This is tiger woods.

Like this guy, we have watched everything he's done like for years and like if I say anything that makes me sound like an idiot like he's never going to talk to me again this is going to be the worst moment of my life like you're just you're trying to be cool but you're like trying to also learn from him and it like so our team was just extremely tense and thankfully we had a couple of juniors and seniors on the team that were a little more well-spoken and could handle a conversation. But as a freshman, I wasn't asking hardly any questions. That's cool.

It's amazing how vividly you remember that experience. But I always got the sense from Tiger that he did really enjoy talking about the minutia of nerdy golf details. Yeah, I think he definitely does. And I mean, he sat there and entertained us for, I mean, we probably had dinner for three hours. So, we definitely just kind of kept talking and talking about it. But walking out of there, we were all like, geez, man, like he probably just wanted to hang

out and like get to know us as people and like, you know, probably get a break from golf. And here we are just grilling them like, while we're trying to eat our dinner and like, he's like golf 24-7 and then we come in and we're just grilling them about like what he's thinking, what he's doing. And yeah, we might have been a little hard on ourselves afterwards, but yeah, he definitely, he was great to talk to and he was incredibly open. That's what it really surprised me was how we could just really have an open conversation with him, and he wasn't guarded. And I think with the media, that can be a hard thing to do. But I think having Conrad there and a bunch of college kids and he's a huge supporter of

Stanford, he, yeah, he really made us feel comfortable. Completely different topic here. I want to know what you... I never know how to ask this, but I always ask guys, who have you learned from the most when you've been out on tour? I don't necessarily mean somebody that's given you lessons or come up and give you tips or giving you feedback on anything. I've learned a lot in turn to my, just from people that play a very different style of golf than me.

So if I was to ask you, just what have you learned and from who, from anyone you've played with or crossed paths with out on tour, that has had a real tangible impact on you? Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question. My rookie year, I learned a lot from Lee Janssen. He was like a great, great influence for me. I played several practice rounds with him.

I played tournament golf with him. We worked out together several times. I just saw him around a lot. And so Lee and Charles Howell, I think I looked up to a lot. And I just watched how they went about their daily life. Because my rookie year, I had no idea what I was doing like kind of how they went about their like daily life. Because my rookie year, I had no idea what I was doing straight out of college. And I was trying to figure out like, how am I supposed to practice? How often do I practice?

When am I playing tournament rounds? So they were great guides for me in that realm. Since then, I learned a lot from my buddy, Maverick. I mean, Maverick McNeely, he's my roommate in Vegas and I mean, we talk all the time and I think just from especially like a putting perspective, I go watch that kit putt all day long and he is, I mean, one of the best putters out here

and so I'm constantly watching like how he practices is putting, what he's working on, how often he's working on it. So I mean, especially like with quarantine, I mean, we just spent three months on top of each other. So like I've spent a ton of time just kind of picking his brain and figuring out what he does and trying to trying to emulate a lot of that in my own game. Gosh, I don't I feel like I should one I should have known that

in two. I should have that to I should have reached out to to get the lot of that in my own game. Gosh, I don't, I feel like I should have known that. And too, I should have, that too, I should have reached out to to get the stories about that. That would be the source of it. I would imagine. No, that's not where we need to go. What do your games look like in Vegas then? I mean, I imagine you guys play a lot of golf together. But who do you play with there?

And what's that golf scene look like? Yeah, so that was, I moved down there in December. And there was a great move for me because there's so many professional golfers to play with constantly. So I actually probably play the most with my buddy Justin S.A. He just graduated from S.C. about a year ago. He's a great player. It was number one amateur in the world.

We grew up at the same course in San Jose together. So we both moved down here to Vegas and we play in practice together almost every day. And so we just try to find other guys to take on. We play with Mavides in the Mout. Buddy Eddie Olson moved down there. There's Shintaro Bond, John Oda. There's just there's a lot of guys down there at Somerland that we get games with. I think that was the biggest thing coming out of quarantine. I felt when courses reopened in May, I kind of had the whole month of May to just play competitively against guys every single day.

When the court and fairies started and the PGA tour season started, I felt really ready to go. We were playing for money every day. There was always something pretty pressing on the line. And, you know, I felt very competitively sharp just from being in that environment. What kind of money we talking? I mean, we don't have to get into specifics. Never. No one will ever get into specifics. It's unbelievable. And it's never like almost anyone I've ever played with or talked to. It's not a lot of money, like

compared to what you play for every week. No, we're definitely losing money worse than any any amateur does, I would say. Oh, absolutely. And I refuse to get a Venmo account because I want cash. Like if I win, I want you to physically take something out of your wallet and give it to me. And if I lose, you know, I got to do the same thing. And that's probably even more embarrassing.

So it's the biggest kind of for me to make sure that I'm sharp. And yeah, I'd say the financial aspect is probably not even as strong as just the embarrassment of winning at Luzon. Yeah, I wouldn't even hear for this, but some of our guys were playing with a pro at Atlantic Beach here a couple of years ago. I remember the last hole ended up with some big time carry overs. And I think somebody went lone wolf. And it was 300 bucks on the line for the lone wolf who was a pro at the

time. And he walked off the green after we were going to just like, whoa, I needed that. Like I needed to feel that under the gun pressure for, you know, not nearly the kind of money you play with week to week, but you just the only real way to simulate that for him. So I was just surprised by this guy. Really, you got, you got a little shook up over 300 bucks, but the idea of having to pay it out is way worse than the actual impact on your bank account.

Oh, I heard it for, yeah, and I mean, the money's real, but yeah, when you gotta open up your wallet and then you gotta go home and be like, man, I gave him my money today, like what am I doing? You know, that whole situation, it's just, it's very motivating. And what's also funny is that pros will have absolutely no problem collecting money off amateurs that are potentially infinitely more broke than they are.

They will take that money with a smile and go straight to the vehicle. Oh, absolutely. Because a lot of times we got to go up against a bunch of badgers, you know? A bunch of guys that were driven way too many. It's three. We've gotten handled a few times too. To be clear, I would have it no other way. I would insist on paying, but it's, it's, it's, uh, it's funny.

I'll play with Jim Furek from time to time. And, you know, he wins the money almost very frequently. And he's the third highest earner in the PGA tour history. And he says no words. You just grab both the grab the 20s and good play. And we'll see you next time. Yeah, that's hardly how I heard. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Listen, I would definitely I would pay the money gladly to get that experience. Anyways, but it's always funny to me. But we kind of glance over this or I forget if you mentioned this, but you were at the time. And I don't know if it's still the case, but you the youngest qualifier for the US amp ever at age 14. I was. Yeah, it was still the case, but you the youngest qualifier for the USM ever at age 14? I was. Yeah, it was, uh, yeah, that was, that was awesome. I mean, that was kind of part of the reason my dad kind of pushed me towards Amateur Golf

after that point, um, to try to play with guys that were bigger, better, stronger, smarter, um, but yeah, and in 2002, I was 14 years old old and I went through a 36 hole qualifier Ironically I had just lost in the qualifier and a playoff for the US junior amateur three weeks before and then I played the US amateur qualifier and got myself in a playoff and was able to somehow Hit a wedge into a par five birdie to play off and and make it to Oakland Hills for the USM and it was It was unbelievable. I mean, I was 14. I had no idea what I was doing or what it meant, but it was really, really cool. Yeah, I was the youngest ever.

Well, this is a question that I never know how to word, I guess, but what I'm trying to get at, and I know there's been a lot of ups and downs from injuries in your career, but I always want to know from guys that have kind of lived in that bubble between, you know, bouncing back between the Cornfairy and PGA Tour. And so, how you view what separates you from someone, and the example I always go to is Kevin Kisner, who is perennially, you know, has his card very safely, does very well, doesn't bomb it, but just has a very,

I don't want to say normal game, but a more relatable game to a lot of people in your mind what is what's the difference between you and Kevin Kisner what do you have to do to get to his level of consistency well yeah it's honestly it's interesting you bring up Kevin Kisner because kids actually had a period of time that he bounced back and forth from the PGA tour to the corn fairy tour back I think he bounced back and forth from the PGA Tour to the Corn Ferry Tour back. I think he went back to the Corn Ferry twice very early in his career out of college. And he had a tough time where he almost thought about giving up the game I read one time. So, kids

has gotten to a point in his career where he's figured out what it takes to succeed for himself to succeed on the PGA Tour. I really think the difference between me and him is simply experience. I've actually played against him quite a bit growing up. We faced each other in the USM in 2004 when he was in college. I was 16 and he beat me on the first playoff hole. I've played quite a bit against him. He's a great player. He's, you know, currently keeps keeps his card now, and he's in a great place in his career, but he went through those growing pains as well.

I think for myself, my career kind of got put a hold for about five years, and so my learning curve got a little messed up in there, And I think that having gone through the corn ferrets we're now and gotten my card back, I've learned a lot about what I need to do well to succeed weekend and week out. And that's where a lot of my conversations about putting with Mav have come up because that's one of the areas of my game

that I can get more consistent at and stronger at. From a ball striking perspective, I think I'm in a pretty good place. My wedge game has gotten much more consistent in the last year and a half. And I think from a mental perspective, I think there's something to be said for getting comfortable out here and feeling like you can compete with these guys even when your game is not sharp. My rookie year when I played on the PGA tour, I thought every aspect of my game had to be firing perfectly for me to have a chance to succeed. And I've had several events this year

that I've had pretty good finishes and looked back on how I played and been like, man, I really wasn't that sharp this week. But I'm starting to figure out kind of how to piece tournaments together again. And I think that's where Kiz has gotten to. I mean, he's a great ball striker, and I certainly am not taking anything away from what he does. He's a great golfer, but I think he is so consistent at where he's at now because he's gotten through those growing pains and he's gotten to a point where he knows exactly what it takes for him to play well and he does that and he kids don't worry about anything else.

Like, kids is just he's just playing golf and doing what he does and that's that's it. Yeah, I think that's kind of why I end up defaulting to Kizner when I'm thinking about that is, you know, it didn't come easy for him, you know, right off the bat and has figured out a way for it to be, you know, so consistent in an era of just bombing. The guys are just absolutely murdering the ball. But have you since over the last decades since you turned pro, have you since much of a shift in professional golf, either in, you know, the kind of profile of the prototype PGA tour player or the volume of pros. How have you seen the game change

over the last 10 years? Well, I think you've definitely seen the trend of getting bigger, stronger, faster. That has definitely happened. My rookie year, I think, Bubba was on tour and he hit it crazy far, but there weren't quite as many guys as there are now that have the type of speed that you see now on tour. And then you combat that with like guys who are just much more polished. I think guys being able to use track man's every week working on their distance control and with the increase awareness and attention on putting, I think guys games are just getting much more solid and much more bulletproof. And so I think that means the fields on the PGA tour are just getting much deeper. And I think, you know, you saw a big change in that when Tiger came out, he kind of pushed guys to move forward and get better.

And I think that trend is just continued to increase as technology and research into the game of golf as improved teaching has improved fields are just getting deeper and deeper because guys now have speed and they know how to control their yardages and they're really solid on putting green so they just aren't a lot of holes in guys game now. You're playing at the work day charity open classic I'm not even sure what it's called this week, but it's just how many starts you anticipate the rest of the year And how do you have any experience around your field village? So now this is my first time in Mirfield

I am unbelievably excited. I've dreamed about this place for years So tomorrow's gonna be my first time to see the course. I can't wait. And, yeah, the rest of the year, I think I will hopefully have four more starts, including this year. Hopefully be at Minnesota, Barracuda, and then the Windom Championship and the regular season, and then the playoffs after. Well, we will let you out on that. I know you got a lot of prep to do for the rest of this week.

And we really appreciate you taking the time today, talking through some tougher issues and issues about your career, and really appreciate the perspective on things. And I think listeners have one more guy to root for every week. So just really appreciate the time and best of luck with the remainder of the season. Yeah, thank you very much for having me, Saul. I really appreciate it. Yep, cheers. Yeah, thank you very much for having me, Sal. I really appreciate it. Yep, cheers. Give it a right club. Be the right club today.

That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. You're the most.