No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 359: Paul McGinley

Episode Date: September 23, 2020

Paul McGinley joins to talk about golf in England and Ireland, his first Ryder Cup, what Sam Torrance told him about his role on the team, the bits and pieces he learned from his captains, and how it molded him into the captain of the 2014. He gives great detail on how he managed egos, individual relationships, expectations, statistics, and everything else that goes into the complicated role of captain. Special thanks to BMW for their support of our Ryder Cup content, and we look forward to providing much more over the course of the next year.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. We got a really strong link fee interview here with Paul McGinley. Want to give a shout out to our partner, BMW. They are a global partner of the Ryder Cup.

They do so much to support our content. We've been working very closely with them over the past year, working on a bunch the Ryder Cup. They do so much to support our content. We've been working very closely with them over the past year working on a bunch of Ryder Cup themed episodes. Of course, the Ryder Cup getting postponed until next year is kind of put a delay on some of that stuff. But this is episode one of looking into some stories about the Ryder Cup. And I really wanted to dig in deep with Paul McGinley on being a captain specifically and all the nuances of that and really asked him to spend some time opening up on some specific examples and I think the detail you're going to get out of this is it's it's unlike anything I've heard at least to a you know all the things that he did with the individual

players when he was captain in 2014 kind Kind of blew my mind a little bit, and I think you guys are gonna enjoy it as well. Also, before we get rolling, I just learned this, this is officially old-fashioned week. If you want to mix a great old-fashioned, you should be reaching for a bottle of Elijah Craig's small batch bourbon. It has a rich flavor and full body

as perfect for mixing this classic whiskey cocktail. Just need a little bit of sugar to enhance the sweetness and some bitters to bring out a little bit of spice. I'm learning this as well. Old-fascins date back to the 1880s. Used to be considered a morning cocktail. I'm not necessarily suggesting that you start your day with it, but you could start your day in worse ways. You can garnish it with an orange swath or a brandy cherry. For more information on how to master the old-fashioned, visit Elijah Craig and discover the greatness within. No laying up is brought to you by Elijah Craig, Kentucky St. Berb and Whiskey.

Bard's Town, Kentucky, 47% alcohol by volume. Elijah Craig reminds you to think wisely, drink wisely. Here's Paul McGinley. From what I understand, you live in Sunningdale. Is it safe to assume that's where you play your golf? Yeah, it is fortunate there. They made me an honor to remember up the road there. I can actually probably hit a nine-hour into the practice ground in Sunningdale from where I live. Yeah, fortunate place to be. I'm kind of right in between if you're pictured, anybody

who's been to the UK, the ninth green in Wentworth and the first tea in Sunnydale, and I'm right in the middle of those two. Probably between the two, you're probably for somebody like Dustin Johnson that will be a drive on a wedge and I'm kind of in the middle. What is it about that area that is so appealing to a golfer? From what I gathered from the little bit that you and I talked about here at LeHinch last year. You do seem like a bit of a golf course. And how does that fare? Yeah, I've got very feeling strong feelings towards golf courses, architecture, the history

of it, what a golf course should be. And basically, you know, obviously grew up in Ireland. I married in English girl. We got married in 1996. All of my traveling at that stage had to go through Heathrow because Dublin was a small airport and everything was a small airport and everything was the connection. And that took a lot out of me, you know, getting the half-six flight in the morning to get

in, to get your flight to go to Spain or wherever the case may be. And, you know, after about a year, so we decided to buy a small house as a base in London, then that elevated in to, you know, a bigger house and then another one. And then we are still here kind of 20 to 23 years later. Kind of run us through in the Surrey area what your favorite stops are if you had 10 rounds to distribute, kind of putting you on the spot with that one. How would you divide up how you choose to play your golf in that area? Yeah, well, I mean, this is an oasis here of golf courses, it's not doubt. It's a little bit like the sand belt is down in Australia, Chris, for people who might be familiar with that. It's a very well-drained soil around here, a lot of it

is sand, a mixture of sand and clay in there, a drains really well, he found, they call it. So it's sometimes a place like a Lings golf course, I mean you can get run down the middle of Sunning Dail and the summertime you can get around 150 yards yards sometimes down the fairway. And even in a winter time it drains really well. And it went where it is maybe not as dry as that but it's still quite dry. So you put wetwirt on there, it's windly forest, which is an old gem of a golf course, Harry Colt design, that's a really cute golf course, very few people get to play that, but that's something special. Wampostin is another one, I mean, Harry Colt, some of the old great designers, you know, they put their eye in the creative eye around a lot of the golf courses in the area and mixed in with that header and heat land and trees. These golf courses are really

evolved into some great tests of golf. And obviously, my favorite is Sunningdale. I also played a new course designed a few years ago, called Well Designed 20 Years ago now, I call Queenwood, which is much more American style private club, but that's only a few miles up the road as well. But now, suddenly that will be my favorite. It's all this authentic. It's got two golf courses, the old and the new. There's only six months between them, even both of them are over 100 years old. The famous one is the old one, but my personal favorite is the new. Well, it's always funny, anywhere pretty much UK or Ireland, anything that's called a new course is always,

the term is very relative, right? I mean, old time boys, old time boys designed the new course at St Andrews. And I remembered my first time going there, I thought, I don't wanna play the new course, like show me the old one and then like, no, this was designed in like 1895. Oh, okay, that actually sounds like

it would be a pretty cool experience. I love the Heathlin Golf, maybe my favorite, because I just love playing golf when it's firm, when the ball's rolling, but you have two elements in Heathlin Golf that you don't really have in Link's Golf. I think the advantage it has over Link's Golf is, it's hard to play, a lot of people will take long trips,

and it's hard to play eight to 10 straight days of Link's Golf in the wind and just kind of getting beaten up by that. By's hard to play eight to 10 straight days of links golf in the wind and just kind of getting beaten up by that. By people that aren't used to doing that every week, that's one and the elevation change. You get a lot more land movement in the Heath one yet still getting the firm turf and it's more peaceful than getting crushed by the wind.

And Sunningdale, Barkshire, Walden Heath and everything in that area has been. Just if I could pick a place to escape Florida in the summer I think I would want to do it in the area where you live to go play a lot of golf. Yeah, I agree with all of those courses you mentioned there Chris and you know we're right on the edge of London I mean we're kind of 15 minutes from each of our airport, 30 minutes from downtown London it's really you know and at the same time you're in the middle

of the countryside so it's a really nice area to live in with loads of variety of golf courses, but we're very fortunate, that's for sure, and I certainly make the most of it. I play a lot of money games around here. That's what keeps me interested, as much as I like the golf courses and the heat land and all of those. And you make good points there, but the architecture on them, and particularly Harry Colt, you know, they very rarely close off the front of a green So it's unusual to have to carry the ball over the bunker or over a water hazard onto the green Normally they give you an opportunity to chase it in off the ground and you got the counters on the ground And help you chase it in or or feed it away from you if you don't get it right and that's what's so brilliant

About the architecture put up and signing, just going back to that, to the Money Games, I see Joel Damon was talking about it last week, Money Games. It's one way of keeping yourself sharp. That's for sure. You gotta stay sharp as a competitor. And Sunnydale is a group of maybe 20 guys or so, maybe more 30 guys, maybe 40.

And we rotate against each other playing the caddy master puts the games together. We all have handicaps and give the shots. And what they do, they do two things. First of all, they play history. So if I play a guy off six handicaps on a beat him, he gets seven shots the next time against me. And then if I beat him again, he gets eight shots against me.

That if he beats me, it goes back to seven and so on. That's what kind of keeps it fun. And then secondly, they mix up the groups all the time. So you're not playing with the same guys over and over. And it makes for a fair game, the money kind of rotates, but the money could be big, you know. It's all relative, like everything, but sometimes it gets up into four figures. What do you play off of as a handicap then? Between plus two and plus four, depending on who I'm playing, and sometimes at the moment it's probably near scratch. I'm not playing very

much. I was playing about six weeks ago quite a lot, but I've been busy the last month or so and I've been in Ireland a bit so I haven't been able to play a whole lot. Well, it's always so hard to try to handicap what pros are. One, I mean, all your tournament rounds are on courses that are just, there's not even a rating for how difficult, you know, some of these courses play and whatnot. But I want to kind of go backwards, you know, gosh, the Irish listeners are going to, you know, hate me for talking all this London golf with you and not talking Ireland golf or somebody from outside Dublin. But where did you play growing up?

I guess, where did you learn the game and kind of did you realize what a, what a gem of a country Ireland was for golf as a young person? Or do you have more appreciation maybe for that now? I think I have more appreciation now. I mean, I grew up in a very insular Ireland back in the 1980s, you know, going away to Spain, Portugal, it was like going to the moon, never mind thinking about going to America. You know, I never left the country till I was I think 19 or 20 years of age, you know, you stayed a group in Ireland, a group in a silver with Dublin. My mom and dad are from

Dunicol, the very top left-hand corner of Ireland, and we used to go up there for the holidays, some of the holidays for two or three months. Dad would come up every weekend, and mom would go up with the kids and we'd stay there, and we'd a small house there. That was kind of my childhood. And I wasn't a golfer, Chris. I mean, my dad was a good player. He was a one-handy cap, and he used to play the amateur scene in Ireland.

He was a great amateur scene in Ireland, North, South, East, and West of Ireland, four big championships, four majors as we call them. And he used to play in all of those as well as the Irish championships, as the Irish championship and the odds crutch cup. And I used to go on caddy for him when I was younger during the summer holidays, but my big passion was Gaelic Fopal. And that's what I was good at. Golf was not something that came easy to me.

It never did in my career, to be honest. This didn't come easy to me. You know, Gaelic Fop football was where I was driving myself towards and until I broke my knee when I was 19. I hope you understand how frustrating it is as an American Ryder Cup fan that golf comes very hard to you. And you beat our ass in the Ryder Cup every single time and you have a very storied Ryder Cup career. No, that's great. That really helps writer cup. No, that's that's great. That really helps helps helps help heal my wounds. I'm still looking from that, but I wanted to get to the night. Yeah. The 91 Walker Cup was that portmarnick. Was that a course that you had? Yeah. I'd played a lot as a junior

or as a young person and just kind of scrolling through some of the names there. You know, Patrick Harrington was a peer of years. You guys grew up in the same area and then going up against Phil and Bob May and David Duval well and that other team. What was, did you have full appreciation for how great the Walker couple is, how big of a deal that was when you played in it. What do you remember about that event? So growing up in Dublin, as I said, Gaelic Fuppel was my passion.

I played golf during the summer. I was about five handicapped. I was 19 years of age and then I brought my knee and I couldn't like football anymore. At that stage, I was on college in Dublin doing a diploma in March, three year diploma course in marketing at college. So I was in Christus for six months, came off the crutches and I started to play golf done. The last two years of college, I started to play tribunce of the year rather than just two or three during the summer. And I couldn't play football, I couldn't train anymore, which is really devastating for me because as I say, I was, I felt that was pretty good and I was gonna get to the very top of it.

My golf's kinda got good, wasn't amazing, but it got good. I got down to kind of scratch handicapped, maybe one handicap when I finished college. Then I worked for a year, I worked six months in Brussels in DEC. That was the first time I left Ireland. So that was, what the air was that night?

It was even though it was 21 years old then. Yeah, so it was 21 when I left Ireland. I went over there at 21. I worked for six months in the EC in Brussels and then I worked six months in investment company in Dublin. And then I met a guy who knew the coach at Ensan Diego, small university called US International. I ended up going there for my last two years, for two more years to get a second degree in international business and also kind of played golf. And that was the first time I went to America. I was 22 years of age. When I was over there, that's where I really escalated as a golfer. You know,

I used to play in the same tournaments as Phil, who was the big star of Arizona at the time. And we were a decent division one team, but we were certainly not at a level of the top teams. And I did okay. And I played well and then came back and dominated the amateur scene in Ireland. Those two summers that I came back and that escalated me into the walk a cup team. So yeah, I of course I knew where how big a deal it was. I had made a kind of private deal with myself before I went to college in America to say, if I don't make the walk a cup team in 1991 in Port Marneck, I'm not going to have a go up in a pro.

And if I do, I will. And I made the team and went to the tour school after us, came second, and I've been in tour since. So that's sitting in Oceola. That's quite a bet to have made with yourself. Do you ever wonder what would have happened if you didn't make that team? Yeah, I would have gone into business. I mean, that's what I thought I was going to be.

That's what I was primed for, I had five years of education to be business. I was thinking all about business, and that's what I was, you know, I thought I was going to be as what I was primed for at five years of education to be business. I was thinking all about business and that's where I was going. I really didn't think I was going to be a pro, to be honest. I didn't think I was good enough to be a pro. But I kind of chiseled out a really good amateur career. It wasn't true dynamic golf. It was just pure grit and determination. I looked back and I'm more or anything else. I had a good game. I had a solid game, but certainly wasn't anything that was tourist-standered. Nobody was more surprised than me when I went to the tourist-killing game second. I kept my head down. I didn't look around. We didn't look

at a scoreboard. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't want to know what was going on. I just kept playing away. Next of all, I end up coming second. That was kind of me. I stumbled into professional golf. Yeah, I'd say it worked out decently well, at least it's fair to say. I usually wait a little while to get into Ryder Cup stuff with someone, but there's so much Ryder Cup to cover with you that I wanna make sure we get this in on the front half of we can. So first question I have.

So you were a Ryder Cup rookie in 2002, and I got a lot to ask about that first Ryder Cup you play. And the first off, what was it like waiting a year for the event? Obviously, this year's event is postponed until next year. The circumstances are obviously quite different. It was postponed because of 9-11, but notably the team was set in 2001 and didn't change for the 2002 playing, which is different than this year. So what was that year like? Waiting an extra year to play in your first rider cup. What do you remember about that? Oh, go. What a remember. Chris was, it was a bloody nightmare. That's what I remember.

I went in to make in the team in 2001. I'd finished sixth in the money list. I had made the team comfortably. It was my first Ryder Cup. I just won the Welsh Open. I was flying. I was playing really well. I couldn't wait for the rider cup and then 9-11 happened and it was cancelled. And then the next 12 months my form just went down and down and down. And I was languishing about 50th in a money list by the time the rider cup came around the following year, having a really poor season, very few top 10s. And I'm going into this huge event as probably the weakest player in the team because I lost all my farm and it's like oh my god right a cup of so difficult, enormous chances. Never mind going in there playing as bad as I have, missing more coast than

I was making. Yeah, I went into it with a lot of fear, I have to say, and that's where you know, why I hold Sam Tarant the captain and switch high esteem is, he was the reason that I came out of the other side. So what was it like coming into that team? Who were the, I wanna really dig into you over the process of a lot of these questions on what makes European model work and kind of, at that period of time, it wasn't this, you know,

pure dominance from Europe, like we've seen over the last, you know last two decades or so, but I wanna know when you walked into that and you came in and saw that team from your rookie, I imagine you're probably being one of the quieter voices in the room, but what did you feel like you walked into? Did it feel, I guess, kind of describing the team atmosphere

and the confidence and the way that team carried itself from year to year and had, kind of getting into the succession plans and the way the whole system works in Europe is year and had, you know, kind of getting into the succession plans and the way the whole system works in Europe is something I really wanna unpack without, of course, you probably won't give away too many of the secrets. But I just wanna know, like, when you came in, did you look around and say,

wow, these guys have really got this figured out or, you know, has it come really a long way since then? What I remember most, there's definitely a hierarchy, you know, you move into the hierarchy and you're part of the team. So that's important. What I moved into more than anything Chris, which is never talked about, but one of the real absolute fundamentals.

I brought a number of fundamentals ultimately into my capency, but the number one fundamental more than anything else was fun. You came into an atmosphere that was alive. There was energy. And the energy wasn't of, oh my God, I hope we don't lose. Oh my God, this is so, you know, it's just so difficult. Oh my God, you know, it was quite the opposite of, oh my God, I can't wait to get this on.

Just sitting in the room and looking around, remember looking around and seeing Monty. It was just so ready for Thursday, or for Friday, rather. I mean, for earlier in the week, and it wasn't like giddy ready. It was just like, yeah, just bring it on, I'm ready. And I remember looking, he, he, he personified and he gave off a body language of, I got this. And then you look across it,

you know, Langer, you know, and you look across Sergio, who was just bursting through at that stage, and, you know, Westwood, and, you know, there was such a stoicness, a resolution about them, but it wasn't in a stern way. It wasn't in a giddy way. It was more of a resolute way, but also with a smile on the face. The banter was great. The atmosphere was relaxed. You were made feel very part of a group of guys

taking on this enormous challenge in a writer cup, there was no doubt, but doing it with a smile on our faces. Did you get the sense that there was extra, any angst in the room because of how things had played out a broke line in the previous writer cup? Was there extra revenge factor in that? I know you weren't a part of the 1990, but did you get that sense from the other guys? No, no, it wasn't even reference. I don't even remember it being mentioned to be honest.

Sam was a vice captain to that. And I nicknamed him after that, and I'm still called up to this day, happy sky in the room. I mean, Sam was just everywhere you saw Sam, he was beaming as a captain, you know? It just, that body language is a captain. It just kind of, it's like he just punches the air out of all anxiety or anxiousness around

There was no bitterness Recreminations of what happened in 99 you know, we've moved on. It's now three years later because of 9.11 and and Now I don't even remember to be mentioned to be honest is the first that first t-shirt in the writer cup all it's cracked up to be Yeah, well, I knew I wasn't playing in the morning. So I'm captain me really well on, you know, that's an important thing to kind of twitch on. So what he did, myself, those four of us, myself, Lee Westwood, Philip Price, I think it was parafoakie. The four of us had really lost form that year.

You know, some players have planned better. Some, no, no, it was yes, the primary. Those four players and yes, we were still in America. So the three of us who were based in, in, brought up to the Berffy two weeks before by Sam. I live beside Sam here down in Sonnydale and we went up for a practice round 12 or 10 days maybe before to write a cup. The World Championship was on over in Ireland ironically. None of us had qualified to play in that. And he said, come on, let's get in. Let's all get together and get up and have a run around in the better figure, have a look at the course.

That stage, all the stands were open. We kind of had a nice four ball on the way around. We did a bit of food afterwards, and I was put a banter. And then on the way back, we got in, some had a driven BMW driver. And we got in the back of the car, and he jumps in the back beside me,

this big seven series BMW. And he's got a bottle of pink champagne and two glasses He almost looked the bottle of champagne and the drive back is about two hours from from Birmingham in the Belfry He said right. We're gonna talk about your role this week and he went through everything and he basically showed so much confidence in me He told me the role everybody was gonna play and many matches every was gonna play and many matches I was gonna play who, who my partners would be, just give me such exude of confidence that you're part of the team, you're not kind of a guy I'm trying to manage here.

He made me really part of it and getting out of the car on the far side, I really felt like I was going to be in a very important, he made me feel a very important part of his team, a very important member of his team, even though, you know, on the car journey and the way up, I felt that I was the outsider and I was a problem that he had to manage. Wow. That sounds like leadership to me. I feel like on our side of the pond, it's a lot of the players dictating so much stuff and instant and almost not having feeling like they're kind of reporting to someone. I get the sense from you that you just had such respect for the captaincy and maybe the Europeans have more respect for, you know, the process

and the figure head at the top of it than maybe the Americans do. I don't know if you can speak to that directly, but that just sounds like a very different system than maybe what we have. Well, I mean, I think it's different in America now, Chris, but certainly there's a huge, important dynamic here that America we're missing that don't do now. And that was the fact that all of the right of Cup captains in Europe were chosen by the players. Chosen by the players, right?

The players committee, representative of the players, were the guys who chose who the captain would be. Not, you know, a PGA board or, you know, somebody from the outside or, you know, some figureheads picking it. No, it was the actual players who put the captain in place. And that was a very important dynamic. I know post task force now, American have changed that and the players, two to task force are very much in control of that now. But, you know, I felt that was probably where a lot of that respect came from. Well, going back to O2, you become the person that is seals the clenching point.

One, I want to know why it seems that that to be so important to the European players. And that's something that I've here talked about a lot, which is I find that very interesting because I think you guys have such a great team dynamic to it that it does seem, I remember Paul Azinger always referencing the European, nobody wants to be the guy that loses the final point, but the Europeans take special joy in clenching that final point. So one, how did you end up in that situation where you were having the match with Jim Fiorek to get that final, the point you needed and what was that like for you as a first time rider cover? Well, again, I'll just tell tell I'll answer your question if you don't mind by telling

you a little story on it and so my role was to play two day two rounds the first two days and part of current thing was going to be my partner I was going to play in the afternoon forums with him and then I was going to play in the morning portions on the second day and then I was going to play my singles match and first time we go out the first day and we lose three and two. But I quite well, that was my first ride at Cup match. I had my own. Partic felt he didn't play very well. I went to Sam afterwards and said,

look, I've left Paul down. I haven't played very well. I need the morning off tomorrow to practice. So Sam decided to leave him out. So Sam comes to me and he says, Paul, I got bad news. Partic doesn't want to play tomorrow. We really feel that you're down today.

And I'm afraid that leaves you without a partner. I'm going to put in somebody else to play because you haven't prepared to play with, you know, you've prepared to play with Paul Rick. And, you know, I don't want to take a chance to put you with somebody else. So he said, look, the afternoon is the four-boy. You're probably not going to play that, you know, that anyway.

So you won't be playing that with the singles. So I'm really disappointed because I've just got to taste in my first ride of Cup match even though I've lost, I felt I've fed my own and now I want more. I've got like a little drill all of a sudden I've forgotten about my form coming into it and I'm looking forward to having another bite of the cherry. So roll out the next day which is a Saturday morning and I'm out walking we played nine holes behind the groups that went off just to kind of get a feel for the course. I knew I wasn't playing in the afternoon and then one of the vice captains came down the fairways. We come up the ninth guy called Derek Cooper and he turned the card over towards me.

We all look at it. God what's he coming down here for? Who's what's happened or who's playing in the afternoon? And he turned it over to me. He said, Jumping the card, Paul, you're on the and 45 minutes to play with Darren. So I get up to the, into the players lounge, and I sit down, and Sam comes over and he says, look, he said, last minute decision, Thomas played really poor, Thomas Bjorn, with this morning, with Darren, I'm gonna give Thomas a rest.

You and Darren are good friends, I know you can fit in while we're here in the football, off you go, I know you'll be great. And off we went, and we had an unbelievable game, myself and Darren played in the fall ball off you go. I know you'll be great. And off we went and we had an unbelievable game. Myself and Darren played in the fourth game. I think we played Davis and Scalhoek. I think it was Davis and Scalhoek in the fall ball and Saturday afternoon.

So all you to matches were finished. We were one down playing the 18th hole. The golf was unbelievable. We were about 11 or 12 on the par, better ball. And so were the Americans. The golf was fabulous. No, it was Jim Fjordic actually was playing a very memorable right. So up the 18th, the dog leg left over the water, I'm on the fairway, Hulk was on the fairway. Anyway, good long story short, the U.S. free players made a bogey and I hit

an unbelievable fore-iron, it was the last shot of the day and I held its fore-iron beautifully into a back-right pain against the wind, the wind was of the day and I held its forearm beautifully into a back right pain against the wind The wind was squippin across and I hit this unbeliever one the best forearms I ever hit to about 25 May par a wound the whole now that half the match now we will level going into the into the level overall going into the singles the following day It was a massive psychological boost for the team and I Performed heroically when it counted in the last few holes at verdict 16 as well. And we come up into the lounge afterwards and everybody's on a hide and music's going. We're flying as a team. Sam comes over and gives me this massive bear hug. This grizzly grizzly guy

grabbed me, pulling me really tight. And he whispers in my ear. He said, McGinley, you showed so much balls today at that number when it really counted on that 18th hole. I'm gonna put you out tomorrow, number 12, because I know you can handle a big occasion if it comes down to it. So now I am 10 for a tall. I mean, picture a guy coming in, missing more cuts

that he's making, and now here I am gonna be playing the anchor role in the right-of-cook team the following day in a match that could welcome down to the last game. So I go off to my room and I have a shower and I come back down for dinner and all the guys are sitting down and remember Thomas Florence said to me, you've seen the draw for tomorrow, I said no,

but I'd known in my own head that I was playing number 12. Simon told me, but I didn't say it to anybody. And I kind of casually went over and picked up the draw. And I looked down number 12, yes, but part of it, then I looked up number one, it was mounting, I said, where am I? And then I saw myself at number nine. I thought, God, I'm hitting Sam's playing games with me here. He's saying one thing and doing another.

He's kind of hitting me there at number nine in the order. So I say nothing on his sit down and Sam comes in about 20 minutes later from the stress conference. And as he comes in, I step up and I go over to walk over and he says, I know, I want to speak to you. Come on over here. And he pulls me over again, sits me down, pulls up a chair right up, so don't get this face right in mind. He says, I know what you're going to say.

I said, well, look, Simon, he's going to play number 12. And I was looking forward to playing that role. And I just feel that you're hitting me now. Number nine, he said, no, he said, before I put in the team, I had to think about it. And I really feel the winning point is going to come somewhere between eight and ten. I'm going to put you right in the middle there. I know you can handle this occasion when it comes down to it. So I was kind of pacified and I thought, okay, find if that's what he thinks that's what I'm going to do. And

after I went, quite long story short, rolled up the next day and playing gym, fury, in the singles. And we've just missed the green. Both of us have missed the green on 18 left. And as I'm walking up, Sam is leaning against the bridge. I can still see him leaning against this bridge with this big, huge grin on his face. As I'm walking up, Sam is leaning against the bridge. I can still see him leaning against this bridge with this big, huge grin on his face. As I'm walking up, remember, the ride of Cup is on the line. And this guy has got the biggest grin you've ever seen, the captain looking at me as I reach it. And as I reach the bridge, he puts me, he's handling me shoulder and walks across the bridge at me. And he says, this is why you're number nine. Do this for me. Do this for your team, Fritz. You've got this. And I walked over the bridge

and I walked away and rather than thinking, oh my god, the ride of cups on the line, he taught also to tell me that open down would win the ride of cupras. As I walked away, rather than thinking, oh my god, I hope I don't spru it up, I hope I don't, I felt the opposite. I felt so empowered and unshackled to think, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And that was the mindset I did, and I chipped it onto whatever it was, 10, 12 feet, and all the parts. And so that was the kind of management Sam did of me, and he given me that responsibility felt

was what I needed, and I seemed to relish it. Gosh, I wish I could root for you. You know, as you're even as your beateness, that's a really cool story. I wish it almost got me to forget how much I, you know, I root against Team Europe, but that is a extremely cool story. I knew you'd be a great guy to kind of get those kind of nuggets from. I mean, you've just seen so much stuff in the course of playing

and becoming a captain and whatnot, but going to 04, I don't really have a whole lot on this, but Joseph's kind of curious as to building up towards your captaincy, what did you learn from Bernard Longer as a captain, or how different was that the next year? And what do you, it seems like you vividly can picture how the vibe and everything was from 2002, but did that change it all into 2004,

or did that continuity kind of speak to kind of what was later come for Europe? It was a different vibe. I mean the captain brings the vibe Chris and you know it was a different vibe. Bern was a lot more serious guy than you certainly wouldn't be playing music in the in the team room the way we were with Sam but that was okay. We all had a huge amount of respect for Bernad Langar, a real statesman of the tour, a state and a statesman of the team, very dramatic in how he was going to captain. We knew that. We're meeting at 7 o'clock, meant to meeting at 7,

not one minute past 7. We all knew to be early. He would wait even though we all be sitting down at 5 minutes at 7. He wouldn't come into the meeting room until it was 7 o'clock. I remember with a big long table, like a big board room table, in this mario hotel, I think we stayed in, and outside of Detroit.

It was just a generic boardroom table. I remember looking around before when the meetings and going, wow, this should be alive. We should have images on the wall here. This should be alive. We need to make, you know, if I'm ever captain one day or if I'm, you know, I'm going to have a team room that's alive. This, you know, this can't be just another mario boardroom

that anybody uses. This should have images on the wall. It should have curtains. It should have carpet. And I started dream of all these things, which I ultimately put in place in 14. So Bernard was very, and he was a lot more hands on me as I evolved into B, because I was formulating my ideas all the time. He was a lot more hands on. He was gut involved in what

the players were doing on the course, something I didn't do. In fact, I did the opposite. I stayed away from the players when I ran the golf course. I didn't see my role as Talon Rory McElroy. It's a five iron runner, the six are. Be careful with the wind here. You need to do this. E.M. Paul's the whatever the case may be. Watch the reading of this, put the guys in front, missed it by it, by, you know, over reading and whatever. So what Bernard did, what was very interesting was he stayed on the par threes in generally pinpointed a few depart trees. And there's one really good story here. Myself and politics played Tiger and Davis on the afternoon of the second day. We were two down after two. We got ourselves back to maybe all square. I think 13 in the

Oakland Hills is the par threes. I'm pretty sure it's 13. It's about 140 yards or so. And it's a two-tiered green, really narrow tier on top and a bunker behind the green. And it's all about distance control. We were all square and maybe worn up at that stage planted. No, no, we definitely had the honor. So it was Pawdick's T-shirt. This was the ForSums.

And crowd behind the T-box in a stand. So Berneck comes over in his very Germanic way and kind of gets it too, was to get on, he says, part of Quackluby going to hit some, part of Cicolid, what is his caddysus, whatever, 143. He said, he said, what cluby going to hit in part of Cicolid?

143, nice nine arm. He said, no, he said, I want you to hit wedge. And then part of Cicolid, what's the carry to the top tier? The caddysus 135. He says, Berner, I can't hit a wedge what's the curry what's the curry to the top tier the caddy says 135 he says burn it I can't hit a wedge 135 I won't get it on the top tier I burn it said I don't care I want you to hit it into the slope and come back down to the bottom of the hill he said but but that's gonna leave a really tough body sit yeah I want you to hit it into the

hill and come back down to bottom of the hill make it look like you've hit a good shot so product being the beautiful player to me was at that stage I don't know if you did it on a latinist career, he stood over, he hit his 135 shot, pitched into the slope, ball came running down the hill and all the crowd went, ooh, behind and all of that, and kind of Patrick didn't show a lot of the scoffs, but he kind of looked like he was disappointed, and in fact he probably was, he was mad at Bernard, even though he had never admitted. And he picked up the tee and he kind of walked over to me, and he looked at me with this really looked like, I knew I was never gonna do that

What's this guy doing? Next of all Tiger stands up. It's his shot and he plays the most beautiful Nine-nine three-quarter spin-off, you know loads of spin up in the air This thing coming down really really soft. It pitches two feet from the pin hard bounce into the back bunker And he looks at Davis's, he got crazy, so I hit that beautifully. So David's got to sink to the bunker and he's got no shot.

And he plays an unbelievable shot out, just misses the flag, catches the tear, back down to where I was putting. I rolled a pot up to two feet, part of it knocks it in, we win the hole. The point being, Bernard had stood on that tee. He saw the top tear with rock hard, he saw that nobody could keep it on the top tier. And he get part of the information

he hit on the bottom tier. And, you know, there's the value of a captain getting involved in what the players do. Wow. That is quite the nugget. I kind of, I hadn't, I was wondering what kind of where you're going with that. And I thought it was going to be, you know, the tiger was going to think, you know, that Tiger was going to think, you know, that, basically, you were going to play off that Tiger was going to get the yardage wrong and try to hit it too hard and maybe fly the green. But the fact that he knew it was that baked up there, that's an interesting, interesting twist there.

That's a very cool story. Yeah. Well, we were the fourth game that day, Chris. So he stood on that tee and watched its first three games go through and had the information assessed and how firm the top of that tier was. So yeah, he put it in play. Now, as I say, when I captain, I didn't do that, I didn't get involved, but there's no one way, you know, and as we go on to speak about the captain's team, you know, and, you

know, my insights on what I did. That doesn't mean what I did is right. It's just what I thought was right and what suited our team. I think there's so many different ways to captain the team. I mean, Sevy Balisteras was flying around in a car, and instructing the players what to do, what not to do. There was chaos behind the scenes by all the counting. Yet, he still ended up a winning rider cook captain.

So there's no just one way of doing it. And I think what you have to do is kind of be true to your own personality. And you have to kind of dream it up yourself. And dream of what the dynamics need to be, and how you're going to captain them. I mean, racing forward to last year, for example, or two years ago in Paris, Thomas Bjorn.

He was a very different captain of what I did. It was a very much a data-driven approach. He looked at the American team. Nine of the top 12, I believe, if I remember rightly, nine of the top 12 were ranked outside the top 100 in drive and accuracy. Only one, I think, Ricky Fowler, if I remember right, was the only guy who was in the top 50 in drive and accuracy. So they were kind of a, they were a long team, but they were erratic. Yes, there were a lot of great players, but hitting the ball

on the ferry was not something that they did. So, you know, he grew to rough accordingly. We'd all played that French open over the years. I think every one of our players at the top 10 finish over the years, every one of the 12, you know, we were used to playing that type of course. And he set it up so that it would suit us and not the Americans.

And, you know, that data-driven approach on was kind of how he set a stall out as a captain and put the get us on great parnings. And, you know, we raised the victory. So there's different ways of approaching every captain sees it differently, certainly in Europe. It's not like we do exactly the same thing every time, everybody comes with a slightly different approach.

I'm sure it's different player to player too, right? How to manage individual players, some respond to some of that stuff and some would not respond very well. I'm sure to advice on the course or, you know, kind of a raw raw cheering atmosphere or more serious atmosphere and all that. It's, yeah, there's not like a formula. But I guess we, I was going to kind of save this question for later, but we can kind of get into it because you just hinted at some of the, um, so I can just just just, just on that point, Chris, before you go on, I just want to come in on that point there. Again, another great nugget

that I learned, my first ride a cup was from Yes, but part of it, who I learned so much from, very, very underrated person as well as a player. And he said to me when I was playing a practice round, the first match in a ride a cup, he said, Paul, there's one thing remember playing in the ride a cup this week. So there's an energy going to come from the crowd that you've never experienced before. Because we're playing a home, it's going to be a very strong positive energy towards you. Now you have to decide, are you going to take that energy and are you going to ride it, interact with the crowd, get really involved and kind of ride it like a surf will ride a wave, or are you going to be like a Bernard Langer and you're going to be the duck underneath the water, kind of slowly going about what he's doing and kind of disconnecting

away from all that energy that's going to be out there. Nitor one is right, Nitor one is wrong, you have to determine which one is the best for you as a player and then you act accordingly. And that was great advice because I was very much an interactive guy with the crowd and I certainly learned a lot and got a lot from the crowd. And you know, impolitor you'd say would be something similar. And then other guys like Philip Price will be very much underneath the radar and kind of disconnected almost like, I'm not playing the right cop. This is just another match. And that kind of mindset is productive for them.

That's interesting. And the nugget I was getting ready to get at though also is kind of talking about how the 2018 team was structured there. You kind of alluded to the US team was just weak and driving accuracy. I'm curious as to what you've seen over the years as to, I don't know if it's typical mistakes, if that's a good question, or what typical mistakes you see the US team making

or those captains making, or if it's just kind of a general discussion on, you know, what you would do have done differently than they did it, or what traps they maybe fall into, of course, you may not want to give out too much of this advice, but just kind of where things have gone wrong. And again, you touch on that earlier about saying, you know, having the players, pick the captain, et cetera. But for fans, it's kind of hard. And even as a diehard fan myself, it's hard for me to really put my finger on and say,

this is what we're doing wrong. But I have to think, you know, being on the side of so many winning rater cups, you would be able to share better insight on that. Well, again, I don't want to be given away too many secrets, but I will, at the same time, answer your question. I think there's a couple of things that would immediately spring to mind. A lot of people would disagree with that,

but I certainly feel it. One of them is, and this maybe comes more from the media than the players. We're written off very quickly, you know, just because Tyrell happened is not winning on the PGA tour, we're kind of dismissed. I know Alan Schiff look wrote something, you know, in advance at the right after, after, you know, you're a America, we're very giddy winning in New York, in the President's Cup about how this is going to be the future and we're going to knock right a cups to oblivion going forward.

And, you know, maybe it was said in jest, whatever, but I'll tell you what, it really resonated with us. It hurt us. And the lack of respect considering how much we've done in right a cups over the previous years really hit home and it energizes. And I think we're already referenced it in this press conference afterwards. You know, there's, you know, at the time the number one player in the world seeking them out to say, now what have you got to say?

And those kind of things, although it might be said in jest and I know this journalist is going to be narratives out there and you're trying to create something, but we love that kind of stuff. Paul A. isn't your dismissing a few months ago. I know we kind of regretted it because you understood the mistake you made, but dismissing kind of Tommy Fleetwood because he never won on the PGA tour.

Those kind of things, and Paul immediately realized he made a mistake and was all over trying to rectify it, but that's playing right into our hands. So respecting your opponent, Chris, no matter what it is, is massively important. And if a media person or somebody comes out and says something like that, it's important to nip it into board quickly

as the captain or nip it into board and say, that's not what we feel as a player. He might be writing that as a journalist, but I didn't hear any of that from the American team. And so respecting your opponent, no matter what it would be, whether it be in business, whether it be in any kind of sport, whether it be in the right of cope,

whether it be in war, no matter what it is, we all know that, you know, first world of engagement is to respect the implements. So I think there's a bit of that goes on. And as I say, it's not just from the players, but there is part of that goes on. I think also the expectation on the American team is huge, you know,

what I talked earlier about the, the phone element that we bring to the European right of cope team. And it's something that I really tried to highlight and bring as much as possible into our team, RealMos, that element of fun. I still see that picture of Sam Tarns leaning against the bridge in the 18th. With all the pressure in the world on him, and I know this is a team with this massive grin on his face, like this was not the most important thing you're ever going to do.

This is golf, this is sport, and let's keep it in context. You know, I think we really bring back to the table and we deal with that a whole lot more better than the whole lot better than what the American team do. I think our data-driven approach certainly the Thomas put into play in 2018 was spectacular. Some of the pairings you can look with based on data were fabulous, and how we set the golf course up

based on data was absolutely, you know, it was genius. I mean, he just took where the Americans were weak and he highlighted it. And, you know, we were really well prepared for the examination paper that that was, you know, that was a US Open Style setup. And we as a team were really well prepared for that. And even going down to Thomas's picks, you know, as much as he got criticized because we're out of form, he picked Sergio and Handic Stenson. He picked the two of them as much as probably they didn't deserve to pick because of their form, but he picked them because he knew that this was going to be a test of furries and greens. And there's two better guys

in the game than furries and greens than Sergio and Handic over the last 10 years, but never gave that away in the media, never said why he picked them, took all the flack in the head, but he was preparing for the exam that that golf course was going to be. And I think we were really, really prepared for it. And I don't know if the American team were. Well, switching back to your one more event from you as a player in the Ryder Cup, you got to take us to 2006 as to what happened at the end of your singles match there. The results of the Ryder Cup was not in question as Europe just absolutely dominated that

year, but take us to your singles match. Yeah, I was playing JJ Henry. And yeah, look, I mean, that was a Ryder Cup where we were on to victory. We had a very strong team. We were very much driven and fueled by all the emotion of Darren's wife, Heather, who lived right next door to us, actually, here in Sonnydale. We had a gate in the garden between us, they're connected to two houses. So I kind of certainly personally lived through those last two years of our life when, you know, she knew she's terminal cancer and slowly, slowly went downhill and then passed away in August, PGA week. The right of Copa was only about five weeks later,

and yet, Darren turned up in place. We're very much driven by that emotion in the team room. Darren was a pick, and went on to play heroically. We had a very strong team down fairness. I know the Americans get criticized for getting beaten badly there, but we were first of all a very energized team, as badly there, but I mean we were first of all a very energized team as I say, but secondly we were a very, very strong team.

If I remember rightly, Hen extends him in Robert Carlson, we're up two picks that year, you know, we went down to have stellar careers both and Robert went in the order of merit. You know, we were really strong one to twelve, we had good pairings in place, and was he was a great captain because he kept it simple Chris. I mean, there's, you know, there's all the different styles of captains that are interesting to analyze, and you know, was he was a great captain because he kept it simple Chris. I mean, there's all the different styles of captains that are interesting to analyze. And was he wasn't a rocket science, it certainly wasn't a data driven approach to weight that Thomas was, his was more a case of, hey, you two have played Weller in the past, off you go again.

You know, Alazzo, you've played Well in the past with Sergio, off you go. You know, Paul, you've played Weller, the part of off you go. You know, and he took fundamentals and parings and stuff that have worked in the past and kind of got out of his, get out of everybody's way and let the quality of the team come through. And that's what we did. And my single match with JJ, as you said, the right of cup is over at that stage. The cheers are coming from the

16th green. And you know, down as match and concluded, that stage, 18 is a part five in the K-Telvovo water. I hit the fairway, JJ was in the bunker, match was all square, I hit the best tree would've ever hit my life over the water to about 40 feet behind the flag, flag was in the front of the green. JJ laid up 120 yards, pitched on to 25 feet, I guess.

I rolled my put down dead, and as I was walking off the green, JJ conceded, I was at walked and off the you can see that my put not he the 25 footer for a half match and a half point and I was I walked off the green that's streaker came running past me a male streaker may I say I remember he had a big get Iroh on his back with it with a when Iroh point towards his ass 19th hole and I turned to him I turned to death. Smith, he was a vice-catholic, and said, oh my God, what do I do here? I just stayed out of the crowd with children, he was running around the green.

I knew he was going to jump in the water. If you literally, what I said, as I walked off the green, because the camera was facing me, you could see, I could say to him, don't run on his line, don't run on his line, I said it twice. The guy just kind of breathed by me, and he ran off, was waving at the crowd, and next to what he started doing circles around JJ, who was lining up as Puff. So I walked over to JJ and I said, pick it up. Let's call it a half-match, JJ, and I considered the 20, 25-foot tomb. Yeah. I mean, it didn't make a difference. The rider cup was worn at that stage, but I guess in playing records,

it makes a difference. And a lot of people came up to me afterwards and still to this day on Mad because there had to be back to win with the bookies. And then the other person who's still mad is woozy. Every time he's a few drinks on him now and even a sea of mouth at this day, you cost me the record, McGinley. If you don't want that game, I don't want to write a cup of the biggest margin. And he kept it and it ever won more than longer, more than anybody. You cost me. So I think he's half serious about it. I don't think Monty is given up that that singles record and conceiving that putt.

No. No, Monty's not. I mean, again, you know, sort of thing about, you know, going back to the, to the underestimation of us in Europe, you know, and, and, and Monty was brilliant. I mean, in a team room, Chris, he was just phenomenal. Not because, you know, same with him, Polter, you know, and Manonth was brilliant. I mean, in a team room, Chris, he was just phenomenal. Not because, you know, same with the impolite, you know, neither do I stand on, they're not kind of rippant on the chest kind of, we got to, you know, they're not the kind of line-hearted guys that

you'd expect them to be. Both of them are actually quite quiet in the team room, but there's a real air of a resoluteness about them and bring it on and don't worry, we got this covered. And that's what they're able to bring to the party and to be part of stoic guys like that, Lee Westwood is another one. And they're easily dismissed then, certainly in the media and America, they're dismissed very quickly because they're not, you know, they haven't won a major. Lee Westwood hasn't won a major. There's no two tougher guys that I ever played against, competed against than Lee Westwood and Monty. And yet a lot of them, you know, a lot of their records

and despite winning, you know, massively around the world, both of them, they're dismissed very quickly because they haven't won a major. And I think that's unfair. Yeah, I've never understood why winning a major would help you lead a bunch of professionals in a team event. I just, I even, you don't even have to have been you know an amazing player or anything. It it just as it seems like a weird kind of prerequisite that the US team seems to emphasize a lot really until until Steve Strucker becoming the captain but I've never never really understood. Well yeah well I mean we were like that in Europe to be honest Chris. I kind of was a little bit of the game changer in that regard. I mean if it just bring you honest, Chris. I kind of was a little bit of the game changer

in that regard. I mean, if it just bring you back to 2012, or Lazabá was a captain in the Miracle of Medina, how he won that was amazing. I mean, that's a story in itself. I was a vice captain. I had already captain twice in Europe at that stage, what's called a Sevy trophy,

which is the best hand from Europe against the best hand from continental Europe. And we had a heavily underdog team on two occasions, and I was captain. And at both times we won. And that had a heavily underdog team on two occasions. And I was captain. And at both times we won. And that's when I kind of got this sense of, God, this comes easy to me. This is a lot of years to me than hitting the golf ball.

I enjoyed this. I loved doing the strategy. I loved doing the team management. I loved doing the talking with the players. I loved the psychology and the media. I loved how we put it together. We'd a really, really undervalued team. The big star players like Luke at the time of Padrik and, you know, Polter and

those guys, they, you know, they weren't playing. They were over the America playing. And I was, where is the European team had stents in and Carlson and these guys playing. And we were heavily underdogged. And twice I took that team to victory. And that's when I kind of got on the radar. A young Rory McAroy came through at that stage too. And he, in his rookie years on the team and I captained him as well as Graham and Thal

and we went down to, as I say, went on to win. And that was kind of along with my vice captain, so he put me in prime position to be right a club captain. But when the debate came up, in the players' committee, and particularly in the media, beforehand, and players' views, as to who should be the next captain, the view of a lot of people was,

well, on the next guy in line, but then The view of a lot of people was, well, on the next guy in line, but then the view of a lot of other people was, well, you know, we as a winner major, you know, McGinley's not being a star, superstar of the game in Europe. Yes, he's played in three right of cups, but, you know, he's always been six to 12 in the team. He's kind of one of the,

also rounds when it comes to the team, you know, we've got to look for, we're going up against Tom Watson as captain, the American team. We need to have a big stellar, big name to be able to sit at a press conference and kind of go up head to head against one of the greats of the game in Tom Watson. And I wanted a scream even though obviously didn't it to the media, but I wanted a scream show me the correlation between the better the player to

better to captain. There is none. You know, Jack Nicholas is the greatest player of all time, current to major wins. And yet he lost as an insuride of club captain. The other golf course he designed in his home state of Columbus. Nick Fowler was our greatest ever player and he lost comfortably in 2008. So show me the correlation that in order to be a great captain or a great leader, you have to have a big stellar record. And I think that was a mistake America were making for a number of years and be interested to see post house force now going forward, if that's

going to change because you don't have to win a major to be a great writer, Captain Leadering Man, and in fact, you could say the opposite, the traits that you need, and this is just my own hunch of analyzing it, the traits that you need to be a stellar name in the game, or to be a stellar winner in the game, or prolific winner in the game in terms of major championships and that drive and an individual sport that you need to be so driven, so self-centered, so selfish, so incredibly about you. Those traits don't translate into leading 12 people. There are two different skill sets and I think that's where the disconnect comes between

the two. That's my hunch on it anyway. That's my theory on it. Well, I think at a certain point as well, you know, you, you had, I would say, you had a very strong team. If I'm looking objectively at 2014 team, I would say that is a much stronger team than Europe fielded in 20, say, 2016, 2012 team was a very strong team. At a certain point though, you know, it does become somewhat about the players

and how well they play. Obviously, there's the captain can do a lot of things to draw that out of them. But at the same time, also, there's also no substitute for just strong talent on a team. Is that fair to say? Oh, absolutely. There's no doubt about that. I mean, you can be the best captain or the best leader that you want to be in any business. But if you don't have the talent to work with, you're really going to have a battle.

And, you know, I was very fortunate with a wonderful team. You know, I had Rowley McAroy, right in the top of his game, for example, World Number One and One Two Meters that year, you know, at the top of the order. I mean, you know, I had a very strong team, you know, Garcia, Stenson, Rose, you know, wherever you want to go. You know, I seem to have a lot of strength. We were playing at home, but it was important as a captain that you don't play on that too much. Certainly not in the media.

You don't want to build yourself up. On the promise over deliver, it's a great mantra. I've heard many times in different facets of life, not just in captaincy. And that's kind of where I was at with it. But at the same time, it needed organization. You just don't put the pairings together and out you go and step back and off it goes. You know, you have to create a platform for these guys to excel as a captain.

And often that has done true simplicity and clarity. You know, these are, in my view, certainly the most successful ones. They like the structure, they like organization. They like to know exactly what's going to happen. They don't like things coming out of left field long. They like a nice, easier, relaxed atmosphere and evening times. They were all the kind of things that I had to do to create a platform. Then in terms of communication, it's very important that you're, for me, having a lot of

integrity with the players and being really honest with them, never telling them a lie, never telling them BS, never telling them stuff that they, you know, they're not going to believe. As a player, that's what I wanted. I just wanted to be straight, tall straight. And that's what I like to think that, that how I dealt with all 12 of the players. It, you know, it wasn't a case of, of, of sure recording anything. You have to be really, really honest and clear with them and put a, put a strategy in place. And, you know, as I think, you know, looking back and reflecting back on my captaincy and reflecting back on, you know, successful captaincy, whether it be American or whether it be European, I think that's what the

captain's bring to the table. Certainly Zinger did that with his pod system. You know, he brought a lot of clarity and buy in from the players, what he did with that. And personally, I have a hunch on this and, you know, my hunch is because I wasn't what we call a superstar at a game by any means, and certainly not a major winner, but it made me think about the game and write a cop that I played in and write a cop cap and see. It made me think in a very roundabout way, because I had to think, you know, I didn't have the skill set to go out and overpower the golf course or the game never came particularly easy to me. So I had to think in a very broad way about what I had to do in order to compete.

Players who are not as talented have to think in a different way and have a different approach to the game in order to compete against the more talented ones. And that's where my view is that radical captancies from players who may not have been the very, very top echelon of the game are the guys that seem to excel in the capemases because they've got a much deeper thought process on the game. It's not a blinkered view of basically reaching the pinnacle as a player and as a player only. And, you know, to be honest, again, you know, probably going out in the limb here saying this, but I think that also extends into the telecasts and into certainly my role as an analyst and golf.

And I watched Brando Shambli as well, the easiest kick that you can give us is, oh, what's the beginnily or what's Shambli got to know about the game of golf? They never were to stop player, they never won a major championship, they never competed regularly at the very top level and granted that's a fair criticism.

But at the same time, you know, Brando and certainly me had to think on our feet, we had to think of the game in a very, very rounded way in order for us to get an edge. And I'd like to think that that's what both of us would bring in the, what we do sit down at the telecast is that we have a more rounded way and more

relatable to the guy sitting back in his armchair because you know the game never came easy to wider. I was like, I think I could speak for him saying that. At the same time, you know, it's great to have a Nick Fowler or a Yuval or a Nasian Jörg to have that inside of guys who did reach the very pinnacle of the game. But I think, you know, good TV telecast comes from, comes from a combination of both. And just because somebody wasn't a great player, it doesn't mean that can be a great captain.

And just because somebody wasn't, you know, a major winner doesn't mean that can be a real cutting analyst when it comes to the game of golf. Yeah, that's really interesting. I thought about that a lot with when it comes to broadcasters and how, you know, I may disagree with some things Brandyl says, but it's not because He is lack of experience or the fact that he's only one one time that he's been there and if anything It's people like yourself and Brandyl whose perspective is look I've been there. I've competed with these guys

I've gone toe to toe them and I can recognize, you know, the skills and the people that have been, you know, been able to separate themselves from someone at my level. That has a lot of value. And sometimes I almost think, you know, the more success you have, it can cloud your views on certain things and not be able to, you know, appreciate certain things. And as you said, how that contributes to captancy, I've never really thought of it that way in terms of, you know, when you're a top, top, top player in the game, Phil has not been a captain yet, but let's just say Phil Mickelson, you're used to kind of having things your way in general for 20, 30 years now of, you know, whatever it is, you know, with sponsors with every time you walk into

the room, you're, you know, unless Tigers right there, you're, you're the best player to have, you know, in that room, you know, career wise and all that and that, you know, how does that affect your decision making and everything you do in life? I would imagine that's very different for someone that, you know, like yourself, who has kind of been, had a lot of success, but not to that same level. Absolutely. I mean, you know, you're talking about a ride of Cook team from 6 to 12.

I was that soldier. I know what it's like. I know how to manage those guys, because that's where I was. I know what it's like to be told psychologically when the captain says, oh, by the way, you're only going to play three matches out of the five. Are you going to play two matches out of the five?

Or are you going to play down the order of whatever and the focus is on the other players? I know that. And sitting down when I was announced captain, I was very honest with myself and I wanted to know what the psyche was like at the top players. So I made it my business to get to know what way the top players think and also how to manage real superstars. So over here in Europe, I'm sure it's getting bigger now in the States, but soccer is a huge game over here.

And Alex Ferguson was the manager of Man United, probably the most decorated, successful manager in the history of soccer at club level. And he was a guy I sawed out prior to the Ryde Cup cap and see with a couple of nice lunches, nice bottle of wine over lunch, up in Manchester where he lives. I met him on two occasions up there as well as had numerous chats on the phone and you know it wasn't just the case of you know I'm probably getting there. I'm now Ryder Cup captain, tell me how to lead and how to manage a team far from it. You know I went up there very organized with my notebook out and specific questions in

areas that I wanted to hit him with and had to be very careful that I wasn't getting sucked into drinking a really good wine, important to table. But my questions to him were very much along the lines of that. How do you manage your analo or how do you manage a David Beckham or Ryan Giggs going into a big, huge game? What are you doing in media? How do you position them? What do you do with communication to them? How do you communicate with the other players in the room as well? What do you say to them

at room meetings? What kind of psyche do these players have? How do I get into that psyche? How do I get credibility from them? All of those kind of questions were ones that he in particular, I was picking the brains off, because when you become right at Club Captain, you're not given a manual, all you have is your own experience, and it's important to kind of isolate where are the areas that, you know where you're strong?

I mean, we all have regals, and we all think we know we're strong in certain areas, but where are my weak? And it's finding people who can help you unlock those questions that you might not have the answer to. And that was a very much a big part of my captency. That mentoring, and it wasn't just Alex Ferguson. There was a few other people, not too many,

but a few other people that I've gone at opinion on, but I only went with specific questions, not with a whole generalization of what I should do. And that's where I was planning to ask you about, the controversy that surrounded leading up to you being selected as Captain in 2014 and just kind of how all that played out and combining some of the earlier things you said along with what you just mentioned on, you know, some people saying they needed a stalwart or somebody with a great record to go up against

Tom Watson. I want to never understand that argument, but it became a, you know, a public kind of spat in some ways and that I don't know what your relationship was like with Darren Clark leading up to it. I don't know if he was necessarily the ring leader saying that, you know, potentially somebody like Monty should be reelected as Captain, you know, four years after Captain at Celtic Manor.

But can you kind of take us through that time? I don't know, you just touched on it some, but, you know, who was in support? What kind of support you felt and got in how that whole thing went down so i'm being very confused at the time and some light cleared up for me but it's still kind of confusing uh... it's the confusing to me christian of the only one it was that it was a horrible time to be honest i mean i had a kind of three

from post-medina which was september two thousand 2012 to maybe an announced in January 2013. That was a horrible period, certainly in my life because I felt that I had the CV, not alone, I've played in three-writers cups, but I capped in twice Europe to victory in the Seville trophy, which was huge. In some ways, my capency in both of theirs was better than what I'd ended up doing in Glen Eagles. I really do feel that I mean the strategies I use bearing in mind the quality of player with all the respect I had at my disposal compared to the Europeans

It was great to you know, I put a strategy in place of leading from the front establishment of the use of momentum You know using our best players and kind of hiding it with the whole lot of thing went on behind it And I ended up we ended up winning that and then you know my vice caponcies went well where I was captain the whole load of thing went on behind it. And I ended up, we ended up winning that. And then, my vice-capacities went well where I was vice-capitan at the monthy in 2010. I was a vice-capitan to Elazaba in 2012. We'd won on both occasions. And now I've done five right of cups and all positive experiences.

We'd won all five. And I felt that I was under ESC later and I was the right guy to be. And then out of left field, without even speaking to me, Darren did a press conference and announced that he wanted to be captain. And nobody saw a comment, nobody expected it.

And all of a sudden it's like, wow, where did I come from? And nobody's more surprised than me. And of course, at that stage, Darren's a big name. He's a lot of charisma. And he's a big golfing CV. He was a major winner at that stage. And a lot of media and a lot of people said, yeah, you know what, Darren is the guy,

to be the next captain. And it's like, oh my God, I'm gonna get pushed out of here. I've done all the hard work. But luckily for me, a lot of the players stood on my shoulder. I named a few, Luke Donald, Ian Polter, and certainly Rory McAroy, who ended up in the one-player in the world and becoming very influential,

all came out very strongly initially through social media and then through the media that I should be the captain. I think Darren realized then that the writing was on the wall that maybe this wasn't his turn that he needed to waive. And then unbelievably, instead of withdrawing and kind of saying, you know what, maybe this is not my time, I'm happy to wait. And then unbelievably, instead of withdrawing and kind of saying, you know what, maybe this is not my time, I'm happy to wait. And Paul will be a great captain. He said, I don't want to be, but maybe Monty should be. And of course, that turned it off

in a whole different time, and after that, and the kind of, I didn't see anything through the media, but I was very distraught about it and very upset that I might end up being captain. But, I say a lot of the players come out on my side and the players ultimately were making that decision because the players committee were very highly influenced by what the top player said and luckily when I came to that meeting it was a two horse race between my and Monty and the committee the side of that I would be the guy. You know did it affect my relationship but Garron absolutely, you know, has it been repaired? Yeah, yeah, to a large extent it has. I'm very fond of Darren. We've gone through a huge amount in our careers together. Like I said earlier, with Heather and everything,

we grew up together playing amateur golf, right through careers. Darren was one of my very best friends on tour. And he wrote to me afterwards, apologized, all of those things. And of course, I accepted his apology. And of course, it was one of those things between a relationship, between two people that goes wrong.

And it did go wrong. But what I go out for dinner, what Darren now, and go for a drink with him, and play golf with him absolutely every day a week, no problem. It's, you know, he leaves, bygones, be guy-gones, and you move on. But it was a tough time. To be honest, it was a very tough time. And particularly because it really affected my relationship with Darren. Well, do you at least believe that he, bear with me on this one, that he was doing in his

own mind and in his heart that he was honestly doing what he thought was best for the team and it wasn't personal towards you. And where I'm coming from is he knew it would affect your relationship and he was still willing to do it because it was what he believed. Whether or not he's right or wrong, completely ignoring whether he's right or wrong, do you at least see it that way at all? I do, I do see it that way.

And that's how I get past the Chris because I do, I do see it that way. And I see it that that was his view. Wasn't a view I agreed with, but that was his view. And I do honestly think he was doing it because he was worried that my CV and my pedigree going up against Tom Watham was going to really hurt the European team. I think that was what's driving him as much as anything else. Yeah, you know, that's that's just the way it is.

And he saw it that way. I would have loved to debate that. And again, my argument would have been, show me the correlation, Darren, between the better the player, the better the captain. Show me the fact that you have to have won a major to be a great captain, because there is no correlation. You can't do it. I mean, I'm, excuse me, there may be part of the London Business School here in, you know, one of the top business schools in the world. And the Leadership Institute made me an executive fellow. Post-Ari the cup of my capency gets used as a case study

now every year in their Sloan course for the Relief students and I go in and I lecture on the case study every year for the last five years. And as well as that, I've also got involved in Leadership Institute there. And we've expanded this feeling that I've got this question of, does the best businessman make the best leader? Does the best captain in football, the best footballer make the best manager?

And there's certainly no correlation in sport, but we've kind of done a thesis on it at London Business School, going into leadership in business as well. And again, the correlation is quite clear. That the mindset to be driven to be the best in the world at what you do doesn't necessarily translate into be the best in terms of leading people. That makes all the sense in the world to me. So now that you have the reins, where would you say from all the previous captains you either

captain to under or played for, where are you pulling what from to come up with your own style and then eventually I want to talk to you about what happens when you get to Gleningles. How are you saying, here's my team and here's how I'm setting up this golf course and here's how my rider cup's going to go. Maybe there may be too many questions there, but I'm wondering if you can kind of build into what your philosophy basically was as a captain and how you went about setting up the golf course. So, my philosophy as a captain was very much along the lines of Sam Tarns.

It was about communication, it was about relationships, it was about managing all the relationships. I mean, I didn't have 12 guys that I knew really, really well. I knew a lot of them well and some were easy to manage and some are more difficult. You know, Victor Dubason had made the team who, you know, all the French guys in tour were telling me, he was kicked off the French team when he was in amateur, kicked out of the federation, he went around clothes, he wouldn't be told what to do, he won't turn up for team meetings and all of those. And, you know, that was highlighted as a red flag to me. So I made it really made it my business,

I put a lot of effort into managing him. And I did that by getting to know him as a person. Remember going out to Malaysia for a week where he was playing and spending a week with him, having dinner with him at night and trying to break down his barrier that he had as a human and then tried to get me into it. He's very good trustworthy of people. And you know, try to get him in there.

I took him down to Monaco. We had a bottle of wine on a friend of mine. He was a former one team. I knew he loved former one. Got him into that environment. Got him in a nice kind of, you know, kind of managed on and slowly brought him into the team. And then grab, grab Graham McDowell to play a part

as a senior guy. He needed to see a guy. Didn't have to talk to Joel Graham into playing that role. Graham wanted to play a bigger role. He wanted to be one of the stars of the team and play in all five games. And I said, no, Ray, I mean, that stage, I was formulating the plan of who was gonna play.

Well, I've just like sanded it to me in the back of that B&W and I went away down with a bottle of champagne. He had a plan, and I was gonna have a plan. And I was starting to formulate the plan, pre-doubt right a cup of who was gonna play with who. And Denny was a question of when the right a cup came, was gonna roll out that plan. It wasn't making it up as I went, it wasn't making it up two days before. This was going to be made up well in advance, based on statistics,

based on the golf course, and that was going to be the plan, and then the communication of that plan to each individual player, and not telling them, like Sam did, what everybody else is doing. So for example, you know, Rory wasn't aware of who else was doing what to him, except who he would be playing with and whose potential partners were, and how many matches you would play. That's all he needed to know.

Whereas Victor the same, you know, you're gonna be playing too much, you're gonna be playing with Graham in the foursons the first two days, and then you're gonna play the singles, you're gonna be playing three matches. You know, and then with Graham, I had to little bit of the yin and the yang.

So trying to get Graham convinced to play this role of only playing three out of five matches was not a thing. Graham, like all players, has got a niggle when he wanted to play five. And he's coming off long after being a US Open Champion and a big star. And I'd been an absolute hero in 2010. And really wanted to play that big role, that lead role. And I had a little bit of a smaller role from the play, but a very important one in terms of looking after one

of the rookies playing the two matches in a difficult format that is for some. And I had to try and convince them that this was the right thing to do. So I did it by talking to them on a humane level and also on a common sense level. And I set him down based on what I knew with statistics and what I trawled out and I said look the real key to unlocking this

golf course based on the stats that I've gathered over the last 10 years to the Johnny Walker around clinicals golf course Graham is the fact that the real key is unlocking the power fives. There's four power fives in this golf course as well as a drive rule power four. Now they're all big power fives and what I course as well as a drive for a par four. Now, they're all big par fives. And what I really want to do is I want to have the bigger hitter driving on these holes, four out of those five holes or even numbers frame. I really need, you're not one of the bigger hitters. I need to put you with a big hitter.

And I need to look after the guy who needs somebody senior and mature on the team and there's nobody better than you to play that role. And then I took out the yardage map when I showed him, you know, your average drive down to second gram is, you know, he can't get home into. Where is it he drives? You're able to get home into. And then slowly went around the golf course that way when it comes to 14, he can drive the great, the green gram, because it's an even number.

It'll be his driving hole. Where is, you know, if you're driving on that hole, you're going to have to lay it up. And so my, my forces partnerships for Ying and Yang I had a big hit around a shorter hitter in each partnership in order to attack the power fives with the bigger hitter driving on the, on the even numbers. So then if you, if you played all that role for them,

I then gave them the cherry of, I say, look, right, if you do this for me, I'll put you about number one in the singles in two weeks time. I'll put you about leading out the team in singles. You know, now I'm playing to his ego, I'm playing to, you know, a role that he really wanted to play. And he's like, really, what will Rory say about that?

And I said, I've cleared it with Rory. Rory's good with all of this. We're going to put Rory out number three because putting out number one is the expectation on his shoulders. I know the last two European captains have put him out at number one, but that hasn't worked out too well. He's lost both of his games. You know, I personally wouldn't be putting out

the best player at number one because they've got nowhere to go at number one. It expected to't worked out too well. He's lost both of his games. You know, I personally wouldn't be putting out the best player at number one, because they've got nowhere to go at number one. It expected to win as a huge amount of expectation or shoulders. That was my, I said the gram, I said, my good instinct is the best number one to the street fighters, the guys with the biggest heart. That's the guy you've had at number one gram

and you're the guy with the biggest heart in this team. So, you know, it was all about managing that kind of, it's just an example of the communication about an advert gram. And so he went away, then he played his two games with Victor, they won both of our games, and Graham was terrific. And then he went out number one in the singles, and one in the singles, and, you know,

the other point I made to him about playing the singles Graham is, look, Graham, if you played his role in the first two days, and only playing one match, you're gonna have an advantage in the singles. And the advantage would be America are gonna do one or two things. They've had of the America are going to do one or two things. They've had, sorry, if they always don't want to do things. They'll either put out their best player number one,

or they'll put out the player who's playing the best that week. Either way, Graham, they will face 72 holes in the first two days. You only have played 36. You're going to be fresh or going out against whoever you're playing against. Doesn't matter who it is. And that's ultimately what happened. You know, he went out against Jordan's speed who was their best player. And Jordan tired. I mean, Jordan got three up at Wednesday

a year early on Graham, but with faded Dan as Graham went on to win two and one. So all those conversations where I had two weeks in advance of the ride of Coup Graham knew well in advance of the ride of Coup exactly what role you were playing. And that's ultimately what happened. This is clearing up so much for me, so much confusion as to why you guys win so much and how everything works. Like that is, that's just one managing one guy right there. I mean, that's not even, can you get, that's the lead example maybe you go to

or any other examples of how you went about managing other pairings or anything like that. Cause that was some of the most insightful stuff I can never remember hearing on this podcast. Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I get it wrong as well, you know, it's, as I say, you know, it's not a perfect science, and I got it wrong the first day. I give an example of getting it wrong. There's a couple of regrets I have about the right of cup captains. You know, one of them is that, you know, you don't captain everybody the same level, you know, captain Graham obviously really well,

I'm a corrupted victor very well and I'm really, very well. They all play great just in rows, Henrik, you know, they're all stars of the team. But some guys you don't captain as well. And one of them was Ian Polter. And I felt I let him down. Polter was one of the guys that reached it up for me to be captain. It came out very vocally in terms of me being the captain.

And it was almost at a point that he was so strong, and I also felt he was versatile, that I kind of not neglected him, but I kind of, I didn't put as much energy into managing him as I should have done. And the other guy I did that too was Stephen Gala, who ended up being the next man in, if there was one more pick,

if there was one more qualifier, it was him, he just missed out by one shot in the last qualifying event. David Howard shot 62 and jumped him into second place, and if he hadn't been second on his own, he would have qualified for the team. And he was scottish, he lived up the road, and he'd won around Glenn Eagles. So I ended up picking him, but I made the mistake there, Chris, of I didn't think that Steve had that performance in him in the last qualifying event in Italy. He had his chances over in the USPGA, over in the World Series that were on the weeks before. He hadn't taken them yet a number of opportunities to get points on the board and confirm his

partner team. He hadn't taken them. I thought he sort of finished in line and he was slowing up coming to the finish and mind-rider and accelerating. So I picked them. Don't regret not picking them. Absolutely not. As I say, he just missed out on the team. That performance was tremendous in the last qualifying event.

So moving on to the right, a cup. Because I'd taken off my eye off the ball with him, I didn't think he was going to make the team. I hadn't put in the spade work with him that I did with Victor and hadn't prepared him the state work with him that I did with Victor and hadn't prepared him to play with a partner. And then I come up with the idea that kind of the last minute, kind of the week before, what am I going to do with Stevie Gullard?

And normally you don't want to play your rookies in the first morning. You know, we were playing the first morning with four balls. And the reason why I went four balls is that we've always done that when we'd won. We'd always gone with four balls first. Ultimately, you don't want to play your rookies in the morning. Steven Gallard is a four ball player, much more so than a four-sense player. So I felt like I have to put them out the first morning because I wanted to play all 12 players the first day. They'd all made the team and I wanted to show confidence, want the 12, bomb out your goal, guys. We're

not going to win this right, a Copa eight or nine players. We're going to win it with 12. That was a very important message I want to get across. Was he did that in 2006? He said that in the meeting. And he said to me as a player who was six to 12 and the team was very happy. When I knew I was going to be playing the first day and he managed me well and he built me up

and I think it's an important thing to do as a captain. So I wanted to put him out in the first morning, but I had to put him out in the for-ball and I had to put him out in the first series of matches. So I was taking a bit of a chance because you don't want to get away to a bad start and you want to be putting your experience players out in the first morning. So I can open the great idea then that, you know, Stevie Scottish, he's one of the golf course, he lives a couple of miles down the road. We're playing in Scotland,

there's going to be a huge crowd around that first. They're all going to be watching the Scott, you know, Stevie is going to have an unbelievable energy in his game and the best guy in our team who's going to feed off that energy is the impolitor. I talked in into doing that role and I talked him into playing with Steven Gallagher, ultimately that they just never ignited and they got beaten heavily and I wasn't prepared enough with either player for that and know, one of the things that I got wrong in terms of all your apparently, listen, if we have more time, I could give you through every single pairing as the why I come up with it and for what reason it was, but not all of them work out. You know, it's an imperfect science being the captain.

Well, that can be part two of the podcast and that we will definitely do again, but before I'd let you go, I do, I do want to at least get a question in about your work with Sky. We've made it no secret. We're not exactly fans of how golf is produced in the US. And I've always loved how they do it in Sky. When I lived in Europe, I got to watch their telecast. And it was fantastic. But is the difference obvious to you?

I don't know how much of the US golf you get to watch. But I do know there are events where you guys just get a feed from one of the US networks and what's that like? How does it make your job easier or harder and kind of wondering how you could compare and contrast it to? Yeah, I mean, look, I don't want to be critical of anybody else's work, but one of the things that's hurt me as a analyst with SkyCris is my relationship with the players.

Because one of the things I promised myself I was going to do it is I would never say something I didn't believe and I was going to be absolutely honest in what my appraisal was. And sometimes you've got to say something about players that you know they're not going to like but you've got to highlight something with them. You know, Rory is a prime example. I'm always asked about Rory, but Irish connection, and write a cup connection, and all about. And you know, Rory's a friend, and I was at his wedding, and you know, and you know, Rory really stood up for me when I was going to be writing a cup captain,

and there's a lot of history with Rory McAroy. But at the same time, I've got to give a balance view, and I've got to give an insight, you know, and you know, US Open. I don't fancy Rory McAroy, and you know, to win around a really tight golf course because he's never performed well on a really difficult golf course. He's won 28 times on tour and all would have win a score of minus 12 are better. I'm always won by a number of shots on occasion, but still, the tournaments that he did win by a number of shots, there was 20 out guys on the par. So it wasn't really when he you want to congression, you couldn't call out a really difficult USO, and golf course.

So having to give that insight affects my relationship with Rory, because I know that he's upset that I don't have his back, and I'm not kind of cheerleading for him. So that's the consequence of being in the media. It's not something that I've read, I'm doing, or enjoy doing, but I've got to give that balance view. As I said, I don't want to be critical what

other players do, and other people do on other shows. But there's not a lot of balance views. There's a lot of cheerleading, and there's a lot of positivity around everything. And golf, as we all know, is not a game that you can be incredibly positive all the time about, and particularly about players. And you can't just positive all the time about and particularly about players. And you can't just put it down to having a bad day. Sometimes there's an insight there, you've got to give.

That's what I try to do. But as a whole, I mean, there's some great analysts in America as well too. But there's a very different vibe. You know, it's a much more positive vibe, the American coverage. And a lot of people like that. It's a lot more positive and a lot more obese and a lot more, you know, the shots come taken fast and are constantly giving the upside of the positivity.

But I think that's Americans by nature, you know, you're a very, very positive nation in general. You know, we're certainly in the UK and Ireland where more conversion rate than it would be in America. And I guess maybe that comes true in the coverage. Yeah, I prefer the commudjury. That's what I like. It's a lot more real in my book.

But I took you a lot for longer than I said I would, but it was absolutely brilliant stuff. And we really appreciate you. You spend the time with us Paul and sharing your insights. I'm sure listeners are going to love listening to this and we'll have to do it again sometimes. So thank you. Oh, Pledge of Christ.

Thank you for having me on. And hope I didn't go by too many European secrets. I'm going to love listen to this and we'll have to do it again sometimes. So thank you. Oh, Pledge of Christ. Thanks for having me on and hope I didn't go by too many European secrets. I'm going to have to go back. I might have to send these around to some of the American players to see if they can implement some of these things. But no, I think you're probably safe. Thanks, and we'll do it again. Cheers.

All right. Thank you. Bye-bye. Be the right club. Be the right club today. Yes. Yes! That is better than most. How about him?

That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Expect anything different.