No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 367: Bobby Weed

Episode Date: October 21, 2020

Long time golf course architect Bobby Weed joins to discuss learning from Pete Dye, drainage, building golf courses for modern players, the TPC network, working for the PGA Tour, renovations, and a lo...t more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most! Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. A fun episode today with Bobby Weed, long-time golf course architect worked for Pete Dye for many, many years. We talk a lot about what he learned from Pete Dye. We nerd out a little bit on the specifics of building golf courses, but also talk about
Starting point is 00:00:44 how things are trending in the industry, how things are trending in the game, what he's been working on lately, what it's like to renovate courses meeting, he needed to get to or else we would have gone for a lot longer, but that usually means somebody's coming back for a part two. So if you're listening to this episode, that means that episode three of season six of Taurus sauce, our Oregon season is live on our YouTube channel. This season is proudly presented by our friends at precision pro golf. Makers of premium laser range finders that help golfers swing with confidence and hit more greens. Everyone needs a range finder and not everyone wants to break the bank for one.
Starting point is 00:01:30 So why wouldn't you get yourself a Precision Pro range finder? Keep listening and I'll tell you which one to get. Throughout this season of Taurus sauce, you're going to we're going to guide you across the Beaver State, showing you the beauty and history that is Oregon Golf. This week's episode is about the foundation of band and dunes and the whole story with Mike Kaiser. And I don't want to give away too much. It's one of my favorite episodes we've ever done.
Starting point is 00:01:50 And there's very little golf that is actually played in this episode. So on every course that you'll find throughout the season during the great state of Oregon, it was the precision pro NX9 slope range finder that guided us to the green. It is a crystal clear picture through the lens of this thing. Gives you a yardage fast, easy. It has a magnetic feature that sticks right to the side of
Starting point is 00:02:09 your cart. If you're in a cart, every one of us uses these things. We all trust Precision Pro to help us pick the right club and swing with confidence. So use promo code NoLangUpt to get $20 off the NX9 Slope Rangefinder. That's NoLangUpt to get $20 off the precision pro NX 9 slope range finder. So go to precisionprogolf.com. Use promo code no laying up at checkout. Swing with confidence, hit more greens with precision pro golf.
Starting point is 00:02:32 Now let's get to Bobbi Wheat. All right, speaking to all different kinds of golf fans here, what, how would you describe where you fit in in the, in the golf architecture landscape currently? I know that at least our listeners are very familiar with Tom Doak, Gil Hans, Bill Koran, Ben Crenshaw. They've all been guests on this podcast before Dave and the Clay Kid.
Starting point is 00:02:51 How would you describe how you fit in into the landscape? Well, you got a good group of guys that you just named and I'm certainly a number of my contemporaries. So I've been in the business a long time. I guess I'm getting to be one of the older guys in the business. How old are you? I'm 65, so I've been in the business a long time. I guess I'm getting to be one of the older guys in the business. How old are you? I'm 65, so I'm working on about 40 plus years of playing in the dirt.
Starting point is 00:03:13 So how would you, I guess, either compare and contrast your golf courses, your style with some of those guys? How would you describe how you fit into that? I probably fall out of the Pete Diatry without question. Pete was my mentor. I was just really, really fortunate to gain so much experience with Pete, kind of taking me under his wing. Really the greatest modern day architect, most creative, learned so much from him, starting with a great work ethic, a tremendous work ethic, and not ever afraid to make changes and told me a long time ago that you showed me a golf course built by a set of plans, I'll show you a
Starting point is 00:03:57 bag golf course. It happens in the field. In fact, all of those guys you mentioned, I think probably spend a lot of time in the field as well. So, I've kind of patterned my career and my business similar to what Pete did. I spent a lot of time on site, I limit my project base, I kind of build it in the field. While we do a routing plan and we have a general concept and idea, so much of it happens in the field. Who else is on the tree? Who did you kind of work with during your time with Pete? It's a very big tree.
Starting point is 00:04:29 I know he has such, and I think a lot of people don't fully understand the reach Pete has into modern golf architecture. Not even the courses that he touched, but all the people that came from him and learned from him and learned the principles from him. So could you kind of set the scene for listeners as to what that tree and that influence looks like? Well, his youngest son, Peabie and I are the same age.
Starting point is 00:04:51 So we kind of came along at the same time. Lee Schmidt, actually, Tom, I gave Tom his first job up in Hilton Head at Long Cove, Brian Curly worked with Pete a little bit when he was with Landmark Land. You know, the list just goes on and on and on, but as great an architect as Pete was, I think to his legacy will also be all the folks that he influenced.
Starting point is 00:05:19 Not only architects, but golf course superintendents, construction personnel, there's so many other folks that are part of our business. Pete influenced so many people until I think an equal component of his legacy will be all of those folks that he touched and brought into this business along with his great golf courses. I kind of want to do a little exercise with you in that I don't think I would be a very good golf course architect. I have an appreciation for it.
Starting point is 00:05:51 I think I understand it pretty well. I know what I like, what I don't like, but I don't think I could do it. So like if I went out tomorrow, playing in the dirt, let's say somewhere in Pontavigia, look at where the old Oak Bridge was or some grass there, that's still there, that I think is going to be some houses. But if I was to design a golf hole or a couple golf holes, what mistakes would somebody
Starting point is 00:06:10 off the street make? Like I couldn't tell you how to drain water, how to do any of that. So I kind of want to set the scene for like the just the things that people don't think about when it comes to golf course management and building. I think everybody is a bit of an armchair architect first and foremost and they all have ideas and typically they all stem from their own particular game more than anything else. Some of the pitfalls probably would be
Starting point is 00:06:36 not paying attention to any drainage. And drainage is probably the foremost most important item to begin with and end with. And it's something that people don't think about when they're playing the golf course. Yeah, it starts with drainage. Bottom line Pete told me that early on and taught me that early on that is drainage, drainage, drainage. If it doesn't drain, it doesn't work.
Starting point is 00:06:57 It doesn't matter if the turf is eighth of an inch underwater or eight feet underwater, it doesn't matter. Wet is wet. Drainage is always going gonna be a key component. You know, wet of the golf holes, I think I've always felt like the water corridor you have, the better off you are, people tend to wanna leave a lot of trees in there.
Starting point is 00:07:17 You'd probably go out and fall in love with a couple of trees and leave the trees in, but you don't really build a golf hole around trees. They're going to check out just like everyone else. So you'd probably fall into that trap as well. And then you'd probably design the golf hole to fit your game. If you hit it, if you hit it left or right, you're going to favor strategy. That's going to help you in that respect.
Starting point is 00:07:45 You probably build a green with either way too much contour, crazy contours, that nobody else could play or finish or build something really flat. But I mean every hole fits somebody's eye and every golf hole, you know, somebody's going to like. There's a lot of strategy that goes into it from start to finish. And the routing is always gonna be one of the most important things.
Starting point is 00:08:10 I mean, what you just explain, you're actually renovating, you're taking an existing piece of ground that had some golf holes on it and refashioning another golf hole. So that's renovation, which is completely different from new construction in so many ways, because on renovations you have the beauty and the benefit of by seeing what's wrong, what doesn't work, what you don't like, and making all of that good on a blank canvas.
Starting point is 00:08:39 You're starting from scratch, so you get to route the golf course and space it out. And it's a lot different, a lot of considerations to take into play when you're considering a brand new golf course versus a renovation. So when it comes to a renovation, I'm going to ask this, besides the obvious, we know with a renovation, there's a golf course there, and you're updating it in a lot of ways versus original design, you're starting from scratch. What, comparing contrast, what those jobs are like in a way of, how am I asking this? Besides the obvious things that are different between the two, what are some things do you have to consider? On a renovation, you certainly want to be, you certainly want to be a good listener,
Starting point is 00:09:19 you want to understand the attributes and the items that are really issues that are creating a renovation job. And typically that's, you know, renovation golf course typically is one that is falling out of favor. It's not competitive in the marketplace. It needs to be updated from a drain-in standpoint,
Starting point is 00:09:42 from an irrigation and more often than not, grassing. So those are some of the key components that you will consider on a renovation. And also, there probably been a lot of trees planted on a golf course, depends on how old it is. So a lot of factors go in, but it's fairly easy to go around and see,
Starting point is 00:10:01 and maybe even play a renovation golf course and get a feel for it, and then be a good listener as to who your client is, what they're looking for and how they want to change. But as opposed to a new golf course, I think on a new golf course, one of the very first questions you want to ask your client is who's playing the golf course? Who am I building the golf course for and who's going to be playing the golf course? I think that's a fundamental question that you have to fully understand on the very front end. And then what are you trying to build? You know, is it a public golf course, private, is it an upturn of my golf course? All those factors have to weigh in. And then you kind of just go from there and you know, determine your access points and understand the topography
Starting point is 00:10:46 and one of the first questions I always want to know and ask is where's the outfall, how's the water getting off the property, where is our outfall, and then understand all the constraints as far as maybe wetlands. Obviously here in Florida, we would be concerned with low lying areas or wetlands and any other psych and strengths that you have.
Starting point is 00:11:08 Well, let's go through one of these that you've done somewhat recently, which is the Grove 23 Michael Jordan's golf course. First of all, what's it like working with Michael Jordan? How do you guys get put in touch? How did he land on you to build the golf course and then kind of like to get into some of the specifics about that golf course? He interviewed a number of folks and he was a member of Metalist and we redid Metalist a few years ago and that's where I got to know first introduced to MJ and just a great guy just
Starting point is 00:11:36 very passionate about the game. A good day for him is 36 and be done by 330 and he didn't wait for people to understand's what I understand. And they typically have a posse of players out there playing and nobody has more fun, nobody enjoys it more. And for him to build his own golf course, I saw him a month ago and he was on number 9 and he just came over and said, you know, there's no place in the world under the bed and right here. Wow.
Starting point is 00:12:07 And that's coming from somebody that could be anybody in the world that he wants to be. That's got to be a cool feeling. No, it's very cool. We had a great relationship. He said, early on, I want to, I want the best off course you can build. Secondly, I want the best practice facilities.
Starting point is 00:12:22 And thirdly, I want to monitor clubhouse. And there's no development on property. And it's strictly golf, golf, golf, golf. And he was very involved. But you know what? I found he was even a better listener. He was absorbing everything. And I invited him to come out as often as he wanted to.
Starting point is 00:12:44 Because I wanted him to come out as often as he wanted to, because I wanted him to see the fact that 70%, 80% of what he was spending was going to be underneath his golf shoes that he really wouldn't see. To see all the lakes being excavated and the field being spread out over the golf course, the irrigation system going in, the drainage going in, a lot of big ticket items. It was a great education process for him to see it from start to finish. I remember when he first went out there, we got on a big piece of equipment
Starting point is 00:13:14 and put it up in the air as high as it would go. And we were like, well, this is kind of going to be the elevation of the clubhouse. And so we started early on showing him everything that we were thinking about and kept him in the loop the whole time and he was really a sponge along the way. Like I said was a great listener, really enjoyed coming out, seeing the progress, you know, was a gung ho coaching, coach like almost like, you know,
Starting point is 00:13:42 hey team, let's go, let's go, let's go. It was just a really, really fun experience for not only myself, but the entire team that we had down there. Well, I would imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, that that's about not just because he is who he is, but it's about a dream job for you, right? Because to the point you're asking about, you know, asking who's going to be playing the golf course and who you're building the golf course for. It seems to me that oftentimes architects are tied to,
Starting point is 00:14:12 slash answering to the owner or the client or somebody comes to you and says, I want this kind of thing on this piece of property. And I would guess in a lot of ways that limits what you would do. If you owned the land and you were building a golf course that could be designed for anyone, you would probably do things differently than a client
Starting point is 00:14:31 will sometimes dictate to you. Is that fair to say? But then MJ seems to be on the end of the spectrum of trusting you more so to build something great more so than telling you what to do. What's an interesting question. I think in looking back, some of the best, most fun golf courses we've been involved in is working for a client that is very involved, educated and very involved throughout the
Starting point is 00:14:58 process. I don't think that's a bad thing. I tend to like that. Obviously, the better, the site, the better, the golf course. But at the same time, working for an owner that is informed and knowledgeable ultimately helps the end product turn out even better. I guess where I was going with that wasn't as much as involvement being a bad thing, more so than, I guess, maybe that's a better way of asking is how often is it kind of dictated to you like
Starting point is 00:15:27 Hey, I want a par 72. Hey, I would like this. Hey, I kind of want this and how often do you do you feel like you have much more freedom? Where does it where does your usual work fall in that spectrum? Most, most clients that we have basically turn it over to us, they entrust us, they basically say, you're the expert, I'm trusting you, that's why we hired and retained you. I've had some clients before that said, we have to have a par 72 and almost demanding a par 72 and I never really fully understood that, but we try to let the land speak to us and the holes shake out with the topo. But more often than not, they give us a free reign, and at the same time, they may have some caveats that they want to include that we'll talk through and discuss, but at the end
Starting point is 00:16:22 of the day, we'll always come to terms and come to agreement. I'll put my foot down where I need to, but at the same time, I need to be a good listener as well. Where I'm going with that also is it sounds like from what I understand from the grove getting into some of the specifics of those golf holes, it sounds like you were able to do some fun stuff with some of the holes, some blind-ish part, threes, and things that, I think that there is a stigma around some of that stuff with some work you holes, some blindish part threes and things that, you know, I think that there is a stigma around some of that stuff with some work you do and correct me if I'm
Starting point is 00:16:49 wrong in some places that that necessarily wouldn't fly. Whereas somewhere like the grove where you have a lot more, maybe a lot more freedom that you're able to do some fun things that somewhat break the mold from what you typically see in a golf course. Well, I know early on MJ was going to have a lot of tour pros as members and he wanted the golf course to stand up and test those tour pros. So knowing that on the front end, we had some good data and some good information as far as our features go and where we wanted to place bunkers and hazards and the length of golf holes. We think it's a great match play golf course because we have a lot of half-par golf holes, which I think are probably the best golf holes in golf.
Starting point is 00:17:31 We have a lot of flexibility. We built some really big par 3s, but we have a lot of variety, so we have some par 5. We have par 3s that are down. We've got one that's probably 155 and then we've got a couple that are up in the 270 to 285 range. We've got a couple drivable par fours and then we certainly have par fours that are 525.30. So that's an interesting wrinkle for the growth that I don't think I really thought of. But I imagine a golf course is very different to layout holes if you know pros are going to be playing it and if you know pros aren't going to necessarily be playing it. So what are the differences there? How much of a
Starting point is 00:18:08 challenge is that introduced to what to what you have ahead of you? Well, I will tell you the range of golfers continues to get lighter and lighter, broader, so to speak. I mean, the beginner starts at the basement, the expert golfer and the tour pro that's sealing just keeps getting higher and higher and higher. So therefore the challenge is even greater today to build a golf course to accommodate such a range of golfers. Knowing that on the front end we had plenty of room. Our site was about 227 acres somewhat rectangular. So we had plenty of room in space and basically know basically a treeless site. We had wide corridors, we had plenty of space in between golf holes. So we built a big wide golf course knowing that the win would be the course's biggest ally probably. In that respect the features are fairly big overall but we have a lot of nuances
Starting point is 00:19:02 where we tighten things up out there in that 350 yard range, which is where a lot of these tour players are today. It's crazy. Well out in front of me, and most everybody else, understanding the tour players as much as I was exposed to them at the PGA tour and building some being involved in tournament player club courses and also being involved with Pete who was constantly trying to stay a step ahead of the tour pros. I think gave us a bit of an angle and understanding on how to challenge the tour pros.
Starting point is 00:19:36 But at the same time, accommodate the average player. Another way we did that down there is we kept most of the greens down on the ground to promote a running game. Ninety percent of the people that play the game play a game on the ground and need that run-up shot, whereas tour player is in the air and they don't see bunkers that are front left and front right. And I think that's a pitfall for so many golf courses where bunkers are placed front left and front right and they really lack the strategic value that really encourages some better shot making from the better player. But as long as you can run the ball up on the green you're going to accommodate everybody. At the
Starting point is 00:20:13 same time you want to create pen placements and greens that fall away and have a lean left or lean right and it it's all about buck or and strategic value from from really T to green. So we just have an understanding of that because we've been around so many tour pros for so long and understanding their game and their habits. I think really really helped us down there at the Grove. A quick break here to check back in with our friends at BioWave. You heard me talk about BioWave in last week's Rocco Mediet podcast. That website and link promo code
Starting point is 00:20:47 is all gonna stay the same. Get to that in a second. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Biowave. This is a TC special. So he told me that in high school, he used to have bad hip flexors and he would get stem treatment on those, which is basically just shooting electric pulses
Starting point is 00:21:00 through the muscle to get it activated, get blood going. These are the take home version of that. Biowave is a take home version of that. You can use them on the rhomboids and he's been using it on his lower back. He's been had a little trouble thanks to the lefty golf.
Starting point is 00:21:12 So a little bit of detail on bio wave. It is FDA-cleared, 100% drug-free. It is pro-athlete proven and trusted. It's for chronic and acute pain in recovery. You can use it to warm up before golf, during a round of golf, for recovery after, treating any kind of acute pain and recovery. You can use it to warm up before golf, during a round of golf for recovery after treating any kind of acute or chronic pain. And one 30 minute treatment can provide
Starting point is 00:21:31 long lasting pain relief for hours. I'm lucky enough right now. I don't have a lot of pain going on. So I haven't tried this personally, but again, TC is swearing by this. You may have even heard it going off in beeps on one of the live shows. He uses this sometimes while we are recording.
Starting point is 00:21:45 It's made in the USA, it's comfortable, and it feels like a deep tissue massage. You can go to biowave.com slash Rocco, use promo code NLU for 15% off. Again, that's biowave.com slash Rocco, use promo code NLU for 15% off. Now let's get back to Bobby Wheat. Well, I definitely want to unpack a lot of that TPC stuff. Specifically, I want to just talk about how that challenge and how that gap between the pros and the amers has changed over the course of your career. But not to get too caught up in distance-related stuff off the bat.
Starting point is 00:22:17 But I'm curious as to, I hear a lot of people say, as a, I'm very pro bifurcation. Just I think the tour pro ball and equipment should not go nearly as far as it does. And for a lot of reasons, one of them being, I think a lot of people point to that and say, why care about the 0.01% of golfers? Like who cares what they're doing? Let me just focus on, let's just focus on what 99.9% of people are doing, blah, blah, blah.
Starting point is 00:22:43 But do you see an effect of the top level guys with how far they're hitting it? What kind of a trickle-down effect does that have in anything related to your job, anything related to amateur golf that has nothing to do with competition? And where I'm kind of going with that is like, people, the ball goes a little further now
Starting point is 00:23:02 for amateur golfers, but that gap is different than it is for the professional golfers, but it makes people play further backties and people want more yardage in their golf courses a little bit. Do you kind of see where I'm going with that? Yes. The game has been bifurcated forever. I mean, going back when we had the two-piece ball out of ball, that's what the tour players played.
Starting point is 00:23:23 The amateurs played out of ball. That's what the tour players played. The Ammoners played a hard ball. It wasn't until the hard ball became so good that everybody went to a hard ball. What other game or what other sport do you know as you age you can continue to play at a high level or hit the ball longer. It's only now that my swing speed is not increasing that I'm really not hitting the ball any longer but for the you know all through my 50s, I would gain distance. I would hit the ball longer with new clubs, new technology, new balls, etc. The pros play different clubs than we do. They play different shafts than we do.
Starting point is 00:23:56 We're all playing the same balls now because we're playing a hard ball. But if you just look back in the early 90s, you know, before we started hitting metal woods, we were playing with soft balls and hard putters. Now we're playing with hard balls and soft putters. The 460cc driver compared to the Persemin woods that I played growing up where the sweet spot was a dime, you know, now it's bigger than a quarter. There's been so much change, but the change in the technological advances today seemed to certainly cater to the swing speed of these guys that are swinging the club so much faster. They're getting the full benefit of all the technological advancements.
Starting point is 00:24:42 I remember 20 plus years ago, 25 years ago when I was working at the PJ Tour. I was on the golf channel with Wally U-Line and who was head of titleist foot joy, etc. And I made a point that to Wally that the most disposable item the game has ever known has been the golf ball. It's changed more than anything. The game was Bifurcated back then when they were playing the softball. We were playing the hard ball and the you know They've always played different clubs and we played different shouts and so forth So this has been an age age-old debate Going back, you know since the feathering gutter got a perch ball. Yeah
Starting point is 00:25:25 And it's going to continue. But I think there, I think at some point, people are going to have to realize the governing bodies are going to have to realize that we're going to have to make some changes. You know, you can see what Bryson is doing to the golf course just today and where he's hitting the ball. It'll be really interesting next month at Augusta
Starting point is 00:25:44 to see where he plow he plays and how he's hitting the ball to be really interesting next month at Augusta to see where he plow he plays and how he hits it there at Augusta. We're all anxious to see that. Yeah, and where I kind of come back to on this is there's just, there's just no reason for it to go this far. We don't have the land for it. I mean, you're somebody that works in this specific business and you understand what land costs are and what it costs to build new teas and all this stuff. It just doesn't seem to make sense to have a ball that goes that far and covers and bypasses
Starting point is 00:26:13 so much about golf course that you're setting up hazards along the way, but there's no point in setting up hazards within the first 300 yards for some of these guys. It's just crazy. Yes, you're right. As crazy as it is, I think it's an incredibly exciting time to be a golf course architect because I think we have as much to do with changing the game as anybody, challenging the players of today and tomorrow. I think it's an incredible, fascinating time today and I really set challenge to continue changing our design strategies and creating new strategies and how we play the golf hole, how we play the golf course and how we get around. You saw it at the US open, how they tried to grow the rough up and the greens were really
Starting point is 00:27:00 rock hard. I'm not a big fan of massive rough. I understand why they do it. I think there are a lot of other ways that we're gonna develop in the future to challenge players at the highest level. But at the same time, you say that's less than 1% and as well under 1%.
Starting point is 00:27:20 Yeah. We can't get caught up in building golf courses for these tour pros. I mean, we need to grow the get caught up in building golf courses for these tour pros. I mean, we need to grow the game. We need more golf courses that we can play in three hours. We need more golf courses that we're not losing more than a sleeve, two sleeve the balls. We need golf courses that you can play, maybe loops of three or six or nine at a time. The two things that society today, golfers have today that we like today,
Starting point is 00:27:49 would be we have less disposable income for some of these activities and we have less disposable time because there's so many other family activities. So to be able to get out and play a couple loops of three or six or nine holes, I think it's something we need to focus on a little bit more and trying to speed the game up, taking four and five hours to play around the golf is sometimes a little too much.
Starting point is 00:28:13 And we need to be conscious of that. The other good thing is that Costa golf has come down in a lot of areas from municipal golf and public golf access. And during this COVID pandemic, I think golf's become a real shining star. You see more families out, you see more people out walking and playing and golf rounds are up significantly. I think that's good for the game.
Starting point is 00:28:37 Well, I'm curious to unpack some of that as to you kind of lit up there for a little bit when talking about how exciting of a time it was for. So what are the ways you would challenge these guys? If, you know, how would you challenge the pros? What are some of the creative ways that you think without any changes of equipment? Ways you would try to get in the way of what Bryson's doing right now, basically. Well, I think players aren't turning the ball quite as much. I think you can introduce a little more left or right and right to
Starting point is 00:29:02 left, golf holes, dog legs, I think can be introduced a little bit more. I think you can take the angle turns. Obviously the angle turns are going out. When I first came into business, I was on the tail end of 750 feet or 250 yards. Pete Dio was the first one to go to 800 feet, 267, and to 850, 283. And then obviously 900 feet at 300 and then beyond to the point where bunkers are showing up now at 325 and all the way out to 350. Managing and adjusting those bunkers as an architect I don't think any of us really want to
Starting point is 00:29:36 take the driver out of their hand but I think it can be the fairways can be set up to where it can be a little more demanding off the tea and tighten up those areas down in that 325, 350 range. And who's to say you won't find things other than deep rough, could also be putting some deeper bunkers out there in those areas to make them much more penal in an area that only a few people are going to be for the most part. But you got to be careful there because, like Pete always said, once you leave the tee, it's all in play.
Starting point is 00:30:08 That's the beauty of part three. You know where everybody's starting on a part three. Whereas on part four and part five, it's truly when you leave the tee, it's all in play because players are everywhere. So, and then I think, you know, as far as greens go, the speeds today are so much faster. We've had to slow some of the greens down as far as slopes to accommodate all the speed, but I think you can really have, you can still have some faults front, you can have some
Starting point is 00:30:36 greens that go away from you, some greens that tilt one way or the other up at wingfoot most of those greens are from back to front. So when they're hitting it out of that thick rough you know they know they could either run the ball up till out of those greens or they could they'd have a bit of a backstop in those greens. It'll be interesting to see these guys at a gust see these guys play something like Pinehurst where they're a little more turtleback. Oh yeah. So I think there's great opportunities and also green around approaches, green surrounds.
Starting point is 00:31:13 I think there's a lot of opportunity to improve upon those areas. And you know, a couple of the tools that we have deception and illusions aren't quite as in play seems like because everybody has range finders now, but they're still deception and illusions that can be created, you know, with bunkers and dips and lows and and hollows and hills and whatnot. So it's just a combination of things and understanding that, you know, we've become too physical with the game. I think the more we can bring back some of that mental agility in our design of golf holes,
Starting point is 00:31:48 I think it's gonna be good too. So we need a better balance of the physical ability and the mental agility. So if we can find a little better balance in there, I think that's gonna help us. I think, to one point, you got me with a deception on that second hole at the new ocean course at Pond of Eadruff. If you're in the left side of that fairway, I told you that a couple weeks ago.
Starting point is 00:32:13 There is even with a range fighter, it got me a little bit, but I think the answer to a lot of that question, you mentioned Pinehurst, and immediately I'm like, yeah, it's not a golf course where bombing it is going to give you that much of an advantage because you're always trying to make the ball stop there, especially around the greens. And if you could do that everywhere, I think the challenges, the different ways you could challenge pros is relatively simple. I mean, guys want to know when their football is going to stop. That's their thing that they fear the most more so than anything else.
Starting point is 00:32:41 But it's just not that possible in, you know, in summer in Detroit to have greens that are, you know, running at a, that are, you know, the ball is thudding off them and rolling and making the angles matter and all that stuff. It's, it, it just, and to your point, I agree with a lot of the, uh, the challenges that you would put up against the pros, but it also, it seems that it is easier addressed with rolling back equipment so that we don't have to build all new golf courses or renovate all the golf courses to adhere to this 1% or we could have this, you know, the kind of rules put in place that just limit how far the 1% hit it and the game all gets very close, a lot closer together. And I know there's a million more complications with that from a liability standpoint and legal
Starting point is 00:33:26 standpoint and all of these things and it's never as simple as I'm making it out to be. But it seems like that you actually can't come out with this distance report and then stand by and do nothing anymore. No, I think that's right. I think the I mean, there's a busload of players right behind Bryson that are either playing the corn fairy tour or coming out of the college ranks. I saw Matthew Wolf playing in college and saw the distances he was hitting the ball.
Starting point is 00:33:53 And you know, there's just a busload of those young guys coming out. And frankly, their playing is much more competitive golf than the tour players. They've got a pencil in their back pocket almost every week that they're playing. They're really sharp. It's just amazing how good these players are now. And they've grown up with this equipment and that's how they've learned the game, you know?
Starting point is 00:34:16 Yeah. And now they're working out. They're being more physical, bigger, they're stronger. And then on the tour side, you know, when I was at the PGA tour, you know, they were tucking on the tour side, you know, when I was at the PGA tour, you know, they were tucking pins and they were, you know, four and five paces in off the edges and now they're, they can be down as little as three paces in. And we were cupping greens at three and four percent
Starting point is 00:34:38 and now we're cupping greens at two and three percent, significant difference. All that said, I really am excited about the future and continuing to grow the game, but also continuing to challenge the best players. I mean, I think that's what really gets our juices going as designers. Can you talk to me about, I guess, as we go back now to how you ended up with the PGA tour? What that role was, was someone there before you
Starting point is 00:35:06 or kind of how the genesis of that role and how it evolved over the course of your time there? That was a front end of the tournament player clubs. And I was working for Pete in Hilton Head. We had just done a little work at Harbor Town, and I was building a long-cove club, a private club on Hilton Head with Pete. Really my first big job, back in the 80-81. Pete was finishing up the Tournament Players Club at
Starting point is 00:35:30 Sawgrass, and he would work there and then drive all night and come in to Hilton Head, and we'd be on the job site the next day, and he'd be back and forth, and then they opened the Players Club at Sawgrass, and they played the first event there and Cherry Pate won and threw everybody in the water and all that good stuff. But shortly thereafter we were in the condo one night. I could only hear one side of the conversation but Dean Beeman called Pete and said, I have a near mutiny on my hand, we've got to make some changes to this golf course. The golf course was ahead of us time.
Starting point is 00:36:05 There was no question about it. Nobody had ever seen anything like it. It embarrassed some of the tour pros, and that's what they don't like. Right. Tour pros don't want to be embarrassed. And they're the best players in the world, and comments, and the feedback was very mixed.
Starting point is 00:36:21 Pete basically said, we're finishing up here in Hilton Head. I've got a young man that I'll sit down there and we'll start making those changes. So I came down at the end of 82, prepared the golf course for the 83 event, which I think house-sut in one. And then after that we started making changes to the golf course and boy they didn't stop. They just kept going. What kind of changes? What needed to be done? to the golf course and boy they didn't stop. They just kept going. What kind of changes, what needed to be done?
Starting point is 00:36:47 We soften the greens. Initially in concept, the greens were built for four specific pen placements, almost in four quadrants. And the greens were too small, I think, to accommodate those four quadrants because we had a lot of slope in each of those quadrants. So in large and softening those quadrants really eased up the greens. And the lines and the angles of the golf holes really haven't changed.
Starting point is 00:37:15 The routing has never changed. And the angles and the lines have not changed that much. They were just softened. They were just softened. And by softening you mean from a contour perspective,, not a soft, like not a firmness slash softness perspective. No, not from a firmness standpoint, but from a view, looking down the line, players like to have things they can aim at and hit up and turn the ball off of and our lines were so straight that we had to alter some of those.
Starting point is 00:37:44 We altered some bunkers. We altered some of the, obviously, all the greens were rebuilt more than once or twice. You got to the point where Pete once made a comment that we should have 90 holes there, not 18, because we built a rebuilt the golf course so much. But, you know what, Jack did the same thing, has done the same thing at Mirfield. Mirfield is a great golf course so much. But you know what, Jack did the same thing, has done the same thing at Mirfield. Mirfield's a great golf course today. Donald Ross did the same thing at Pinehurst number two.
Starting point is 00:38:11 It's one of the great golf courses today. And the Tournament Players Club at Sawgrass with all the changes while I didn't approve, I didn't care for some of the changes I was doing, I was told, and I think the golf course has evolved into a really great golf course today. I always say this about stadium course and I don't even know if it's technically accurate
Starting point is 00:38:32 but that it's classic Pete die visual intimidation as far as the fairways come because you stand those fairways and you're like this is actually pretty wide up here but from the T-boxes it feels a little uncomfortable. Is there anything that you learned from Pete, I guess, in terms of visual intimidation and how that plays a role, even with the rangefinder era and whatnot, as to how to visually kind of confuse players, even at the top level? That's a good comment, visual intimidation. Looks harder, plays a little bit easier.
Starting point is 00:39:04 And I think the fairways are a little rounded in terms of kind of folded over where you can't see the true edges of the fairway from the tease and it makes you feel like it's more narrow. And I just was, I always say that to people, I'm like, yeah, take a look here at how this works and now that I think about it, I don't know if that is actually technically a peat diasum.
Starting point is 00:39:21 Well, it's a flat golf course. We obviously have basins to pick up drainage because the site was not a very good quality type of material that the golf course was built on. So it does have some subtle movement, but that's only to get the water off. But the visual intimidation, there's so much I candy out there, and in particular, in the very beginning,
Starting point is 00:39:46 because it was a single row irrigation system when the golf course opened. So the fringes became pretty rough. It was rustic looking, somewhat unkempt. You missed the fairways, and you were going to pay the price. Whereas today, it's a little more of a parkland feel today with more irrigated turf little more of a parkland feel today with more irrigated turf, more water areas.
Starting point is 00:40:09 So that has changed over the years as well. The edges are a little softer, but there is plenty of visual intimidation. I mean, you kind of have to keep both hands on the wheel throughout the round. And what I really have always liked about the golf course is it didn't favor one particular player hitting it left or right or right to left. I mean, you're going to get exposed at some point during the round if you only hit it left or right or right to left because the golf course demands that you're going to have to turn the ball both directions. And the golf course has great variety.
Starting point is 00:40:47 And we've added some length over the years. And frankly, there's probably a few more holes that could have a little more length added yet today that I'm sure the tour will be looking at into the future. I think it's a great test of golf. I really, really enjoy playing. I know some high handicapers don't necessarily enjoy playing it. I've been told it's my low handicap privilege that I really like that golf course, but I think it's a fascinating place to play. What would I hate to ask this question such in such a basic way is we could spend 10 hours probably talking about
Starting point is 00:41:20 what you learned from Pete Die. But I was just curious as to, you know, you've touched on a couple of them already. Where's the water going off the golf course? How to drain a golf course and stuff. But I'm wondering is to what you think the most interesting things that kind of made you when you learned them go, huh, that you learned from Pete Die along the years? He was never totally satisfied.
Starting point is 00:41:41 He thought that every time he made a change to a feature that it was making the golf hole better. And more often than not, he was absolutely correct. So he was never afraid of getting a hole almost ready to grasp, or even if it was grasped, he was not opposed to coming back in and changing. He was such a perfectionist that he was constantly shaping and molding in the field, drawing with his bulldozer, and sketching in the dirt and the sand of what he was trying to do, and creating these angles, is really what he was so focused on. He was so driven and focused by the angles of each and every golf hole and the stadium courses a beautiful example of that. And I think it was that relentless pursuit of changing it, of reshaping and molding until he got it just to fit his eye.
Starting point is 00:42:46 And that was one of the great takeaways for me. And then, you know, the fact that we would be working 12 and 14 hour days, every day, not just four or five days, every day, working 12 and 14 hours, and he would make it fun. I mean, you were enjoying being out there doing physical labor, driving equipment, operating equipment and whether it be raking
Starting point is 00:43:15 and shoveling or down in a trench with drain pipe, it didn't really matter. He was so driven until he just motivated everybody on site and guess what? Along the way we all had fun. We had fun doing it. And I've never really run across anybody that quite had those those traits that could invigorate you know a crew and all the crews that you know you have 40, 50, 60 people working on a golf course. You have irrigation crews, you have drainage crews, you have shaping, you have guys that are shaping,
Starting point is 00:43:50 you've got laborers, you've got people that lay inside. And I mean, it's just, you know, there's just so much going on and he's the conductor out there, you know, with the orchestra and just, you know, just making it all happen and enjoying it and working just as hard as anybody else. Did you work with him, Akira? I was not at Kioa. Jason McCoy was working up at Kioa with Pete on the Ocean Course. I went up and visited a number of times with him at Kioa. A lot of that project occurred and was rebuilt along the way during and after Hurricane Hugo.
Starting point is 00:44:27 Right. Just a great, great golf course, great piece of property, very challenging obviously with the wind up there. I was up there for the 91 rider cup and also was up there for the PGA when McAroy just drove the ball better than anybody I've ever seen hit it off the tee. I teased this and I forgot to come back to it, I guess, with your work with the PGA tour after the after-sol grass kind of, can you talk a little bit about some of the following projects in the initiative of the TPC network? Yeah, so I'm sorry I kind of got off on a tangent there as well.
Starting point is 00:45:02 Dean Beaman was really the creator of the Tournament Players Club Network as the commissioner. And I was also- Sorry to stop you there, but what is the Tournament Players Club Network? You know, I know it's evolved some over the years, but what was the mission, I guess? I think the mission early on was to build golf courses that had to host an event, a PJ Tour event.
Starting point is 00:45:24 Initially, it was a PJ Tour event, Initially, it was a PJ Tour event, and then it evolved into a Champions Tour event, if need be. But it was a set of clubs that would create and generate revenue for the PJ Tour. I think it was a for-profit aspect of the overall PJ Tour umbrella. It's been wildly successful from a financial standpoint. But early on, the mission was to build tournament related golf courses that were wired
Starting point is 00:45:55 for television early on, had all the right plumbing to host an event, it had television pads, it had hospitality areas built and designed into the concept along with the golf course and to move spectators around and to be spectator friendly. And the term of player-club at Saga S was obviously the first one and then we were involved in growing that network and that concept. And we made our share of mistakes because there's a new concept, but it was quite innovative. You know, it was all initiated by Commissioner Beaman, who just had
Starting point is 00:46:34 a fantastic business mind and took the tour to new heights that no one had ever seen or dreamed of. The Tournament Player Clubs today, I'm not sure how many they are. The couple of them have been sold and I've been out of there for a number of years. But I was involved early on with the concept. It was very exciting. And then we started using other architects and we engaged PJ tour players as player consultants to be involved as well, so they would have a say. And some were more involved than others. I think I probably worked with about 17 or 18 tour pros over the course of my tenure there, which is really great.
Starting point is 00:47:18 It allowed me to rub elbows with some of the greatest players in the game, both modern day and from another era. That was excellent experience for me. I've got Sam Sneed, Gene Sares, and Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicholas Raymond Floyd, and Cheach Yvoud Riga's is all players you worked with. Just a few to go. Pretty good. Span in some generations too.
Starting point is 00:47:39 No question. And I tell you, they all were just great in so many respects. I mean, you know, somebody said describe Sam's need and my immediate comment was, he's the oldest teenager I ever had. And it was great being around Jack. It's a great being around Arnold and Gary Player and Raymond Floyd and Jerry Pay, Chi Chi, Fuzzy Zeller, just so many great, great players that just had shared so many common interest about the game and some were more involved than others from a design standpoint and input.
Starting point is 00:48:19 Two of the guys that were player consultants that I worked with at River Highlands included Roger Malpby and Howard Twitty, and they were very involved. They were really into it. They wanted to know everything that we were doing, and they were involved in a lot of the strategy of some of the golf holes and some of the bunkering, and they had good input, very good input. I guess I find it somewhat tying in a lot of things we're talking about is here we're talking about tournament specific golf courses that were really built, most of them built in an era before the distance, real boom of the early 2000s.
Starting point is 00:48:56 I just find it a little bit ironic of, you know, we're talking about building these new golf courses for Torpros when I feel like this was kind of the initiative of this in the beginning several decades ago. Well, a lot of those golf courses have been renovated and remodeled and upgraded and greatly lengthened. Grasses have changed. Grasstypes have changed. We've gone from bent grass to brimutigrass on a couple of golf courses. We've changed them out and we've added links to a lot of those golf courses. You know, the tour has a shot link data which is incredibly valuable. So, you can use a lot of that information to help upgrade some of these golf courses.
Starting point is 00:49:36 And, you know, rethinking the bunker strategy, not only in the fairways, but around the greens. I mean, they have such stats today that, you know, a lot of times they can get out of the bunker. They have a higher up and down percentage getting out of the bunkers than they do from around the greens on short cut. Obviously, when you're going to the bunker, typically, you know, if it's a normal bunker shot, they're hitting up 58 or 62 degree wedge. Whereas, you miss the green and you're down in a hollow, then
Starting point is 00:50:07 you may have three or four choices on getting it up and down. And if you don't make the right decision, then you don't get it up and down, there's that mental aspect that I think has been missing a little bit. And we've taken out bunkers sometimes, in instances around greens as well, just to add a little little more variety as far as players, you know, trying to get it up and down around greens instead of just flanking greens with bunkers. That's not necessarily good strategy. Well, it's, you know, one thing I hear sometimes on the PGA tour that I never ever ever ever hear during the British Open is after a player hits a shot getting the bunker. No one ever says that and I'm always I'm just amazed and I'm sure you've got
Starting point is 00:50:52 a million reasons as to why this is the case. Why it seems like you do everything in links golf, you do everything you possibly can to avoid these these traps and in a lot of US golf and PGA tour golf, you aren't necessarily trying to avoid the bunkers. You know, a lot of it has to do with the aerial aspect of the game and the running aspect of links golf, but they don't. Mirafield Village is the one place I think of, where they've really deepened the bunkers
Starting point is 00:51:19 to make it very, very difficult to get up and down. But otherwise, it just doesn't seem like I see pros with really, really difficult bunker shots very often. You know, I'll, you're right. Bunkers have evolved tremendously. And I hear superintendents talk sometimes that they spend more man hours maintaining bunkers than they do their greens. Find that's a little, I have a problem with that. Clubs want their bunkers to be all consistent. How do we get our bunkers 100% consistent? I'm like, well, that's really impossible because you have north-facing bunkers, south-facing
Starting point is 00:51:54 bunkers, bunkers that have more play than others, and more often they have more sand than others. But there's a level of consistency that has Americanized our bunkers to the point where that's not the case when you go to the British Isles. They don't maintain them to the same standard, but they're still hazards. At the end of the day, they're hazards and they play as hazards. While over here for a tour event, they may break the bunkers toward the pin and not toward you. The grain coming into you is going with you, which obviously makes a bunker shot a little different to play.
Starting point is 00:52:30 There's a lot of factors that go in to the bunkers versus some of the bunkers that you get into in so many other parts of the world. You certainly don't hear them saying that very often in sent Andrews and some of the other British open rotation courses that they played during the open. But over here, you hear that comment quite often about getting the bunker, getting the bunker. And it may be because there's too much rough or a rough.
Starting point is 00:52:57 And if you've got a lot of rough around a green and around a bunker, then obviously more predictable to be in the bunker than in the rough. Well, I want to talk to you a bit about a couple of renovations that you've done. The first one being metalist. I'm wondering if you can take us kind of through the timeline of metalists, what you did there initially, what, like the initial structure of metalists, when you did work there and kind of tell the story of that place. Pete, the golf course in 95. Greg Norman was a founder and ultimately became
Starting point is 00:53:28 a on the architect team co-architect. But Pete routed and designed the golf course and built the golf course. And Greg kind of cut his teeth, I think there. I wasn't there. I was down there some during construction. The golf course went through a lot of changes from 95 until I got there in 2015. It had a little different look. The membership wanted it to maybe go back a little more towards Pete.
Starting point is 00:53:53 I had a couple of discussions and meetings with Pete. Pete said, you go up there and make the changes. He said, I'll check in and stay in touch with you on it. I had all the shell matches that Greg and Nick Price had played when the courts first opened in 95. So Alison Pete had copies of those and they gave them to me. And I lived on site during the job and I was just poor over those, those old shell match on every hole that had great aer areas and showed all the golf holes.
Starting point is 00:54:25 And the original golf course had all sidewalk bunkers, natural sidewalk bunkers. Over the years, most of the greens that were down on the ground had been renovated and somewhere up in the air, the bunkers that were on the inside of the dog leg had been altered. A lot of changes to the golf holes. So I was able to go back and restore the golf course
Starting point is 00:54:46 to a greater degree than most and take it back to what they really started with. And then obviously added some yardage and made some other additions to the golf course. And it was including the Tiger Tees. Yeah, we put in some Tiger Tees. Who'd you work with on that? That was fun.
Starting point is 00:55:03 Yeah. We added a number of Tiger T's with Tiger's assistance and I think there's probably 25 plus or minus two pros that are members there in that Jupiter area and they all played it medallists because it's just a great club, great membership, houses only on one or two golf holes and they're set back, you don't really see them. So a lot of wildlife, plenty of room, players can really drive their ball out there and golf course. We had quite a bit of yardage and I think
Starting point is 00:55:36 we're stretched out to probably 7,600 plus yards. All the greens are pretty much down and just a very, very playable golf course, very little rough, pretty much just step cut and just macular conditioned Jason Jobsons is superintendent. And on a day-to-day basis, they're just a touch away from hosting an event at any time. And so players really like that when they come home and live in that area to come out and be able to play a golf course, that highly condition and well condition on a day-to-day basis and to be able to go out and practice and put on those greens with that kind of speed. They don't miss a beat when they go out on tour and play the tour courses. So it sets up great for the tour players.
Starting point is 00:56:26 That's where I first met MJ and the membership, very discerning membership. They give those tour pros the same treatment as each other. Everybody's treated pretty equally there. I think it goes about their business. It's just a great club. Did that in 2016, I believe.
Starting point is 00:56:42 We didn't replace the bunkers with the natural side. We used the new EcoBunker Artificial Surface, and it just has an amazing, amazing look to it, and we'll stand up so much better and longer. So that really added a nice element to the golf course along the way. I was surprised. I didn't know what to expect before I played it, but I thought it'd be a lot more penal. I didn't know it was going to be that wide, and there was that much kind of nuance to the, like the 10th hole is the one I come back on as, you know, I played
Starting point is 00:57:12 way up the left on that par four and had a terrible angle into the hole, and the risk is play down the right closer to the hazard, and you'll have a good look at the pin and everything. And that kind of charting exercises, something that I thought was really fantastic. Another one I want to talk about, maybe this one's a little bit selfish because I've been looking at the construction in my backyard of our condo for the last year, but Pond and Vigia are in the club, but the reason I want to ask about that is you recently just redid the ocean course. A course that you have renovated before in the past.
Starting point is 00:57:41 What's it like to renovate a course that you have already renovated? And I'm coming at that as in terms of how you evolve over the years as an architect, what you learn, what you come back at and see differently, you know, several years later. Everybody likes to mulligan. So it was a little bit of a mulligan from me because I read Did the Golf Course in 98. It was originally a 1928 Herbert Strong Englishman who did a number of other fine courses on his own here in the States, Engineers Club in New York comes to mind. The golf course was written up as one of the three hardest in the United States back in the day, was actually slated to host the 1939
Starting point is 00:58:26 Ryder Cup that was ultimately canceled due to World War II. And then Trent Jones came in 50s, I believe mid 50s, and renovated the golf course and made a lot of changes. The golf course has a north-south routing hard up against the Atlantic Ocean. The wind is certainly the biggest ally of the golf course. And I renovated it in 96. Stepped on the gas pretty good.
Starting point is 00:58:55 It had quite a bit, the greens had a lot of movement. And the features were big and bold. A lot of the greens that Jones had elevated, I left and tack maybe some more than others. In this past year, 2020 here that we're in, we just finished and just reopened the course. What, 22 years later, I took the liberty of softening some of the grains, taking some of the contour out mainly because the speed or so much faster today. I just couldn't accommodate those speeds in the past. And we lowered a number of the contour out mainly because the speed or so much faster today. You just couldn't accommodate those speeds in the past. And we lowered a number of the green complex.
Starting point is 00:59:30 We lowered them down a little bit to bring in the surrounds to make them a little more playable. And hard up against the ocean, we did some turf reduction and put in some shell screenings for contrast and for ease of playability I think and we really don't have much rough on the golf course. It's really big wide spacious fairways and step cut and I think the opening weekend we had a big nor Eastern in the wind move for like six days in a row and it was unbelievable. It was brutal I'm sure everybody struggled but
Starting point is 01:00:02 it was blown in the direction of our place which is right off the tee, or not off the tee, but where the left ball is gonna hit off 10-T's. So, you may have had a little action on that. We experienced a little bit of that. But the golf course had been very well received, and we changed out all the grasses, introduced some new grasses, some new advanced varieties of turf grass, great
Starting point is 01:00:25 visual sight lines. I planted a lot of oak trees throughout the property to mimic an old maritime forest because that's what was here before some of the mining back in the 20s tells you how old I'm getting because those are pretty big trees today. I tell my kids that I have three daughters and I take them out there and I'm like, yeah, your dad planted all these trees. I know all they can think about is wow, dad, you're pretty old. I know we gotta let you go here shortly,
Starting point is 01:00:55 but there's no chance, maybe we'll have to do this again in the future. There's no chance we can get to all these golf courses, but I know you've done a lot of Donald Ross work or restoration work on Donald Ross courses. Maybe I don't even have the full list on here. Palatka, Palmasea, Tim Aquana. What is it like to do to work on a, you know, Donald Ross golf course? I imagine across that spectrum there's varying amounts of information you had about the original golf courses in those projects. Yeah, by the time I, by the time I saw these golf courses, there wasn't, there was not much
Starting point is 01:01:26 Ross left in any of them. They've been renovated three to five times over the years. So I was able to go back and historically look for old files and records and like at Tim McQuana, it's set right beside a naval air station and I was able to find some old 1940s, areas from the Navy, and they'd overshot some of the properties, and it showed the golf course I was able to enlarge and see what struck me early on was the lack of trees. It was basically a treeless site with a few big clusters
Starting point is 01:02:00 of oak trees, and then when I saw the golf course, it was absolutely treeline, and one of the most unique aspects of that particular golf course was I found three sets of 150 yard markers. I found some juniper trees that were 40 feet tall that were 30 yards back in the woods and then I found some photocarpis and some legustrum 150 yard markers and that just showed you the evolution of how the golf course just kept tightening up as more and more trees were planted because back in the 40s even then there were very few trees on that golf course and that just shows you how golf courses evolve over time. But we were able to go back and really rebuild that golf course. And you know,
Starting point is 01:02:52 one item that you don't see much today is quirky. I think quirky has fallen out of favor. And I think quirky is still good. I think we should have more quirky features out on golf courses and quirky can be good. What's kind of just be hard, going back to what we talked about in the very beginning about convincing owners or whatnot, it seems like quirky back in the day was just kind of the way of,
Starting point is 01:03:18 there wasn't any template of how a golf course should look. And so you could do quirky and you didn't really know it was quirky at the time. But now, how hard is it to get away with doing something quirky? Because I feel like a lot of today's golfers condition to not like blind shots, to not like, you know, a 240 yard par four,
Starting point is 01:03:35 or something like that, or, you know, how hard is, do you find that challenge? Well, I just keep going back over and seeing a lot of great courses in the British Isles, and there's still a lot of great golf courses here in America that have a lot of corkiness and blindness and up and down and funky features and around greens and bunkers that are not normal to most players, even your artigers of golf holes. We had a lot of fun shaping and molding at golf course in the field and same thing
Starting point is 01:04:07 at Palm of Sia down in Tampa and South Tampa. That golf course had been changed so many times and it's on a very small piece of property and a lot of trees have been planted over the years. You really can't play that golf course without having to play out of oak, out from underneath the oak tree or around a tree at some point. Again, you know, it's not a really overly long golf course and the corridors are pretty tight, but it works. It works. It's a great country club and it's a fantastic membership. And then you got a Palaka and it was a 20s raw style golf course, and the greens are about as big as your table right here, and they just slope off, but it's a most fun playing golf course.
Starting point is 01:04:53 I think from the tips, it may be 6,000 yards, par 70, and they have a couple of amateur events there. They play the Azealia, amateur there. The Florida Azealia. They give a lot of walker cut points. So you get all these college kids coming in there. And they just lick their chops and they're just gonna blister it and shoot 59, 58.
Starting point is 01:05:16 Well, golf course just eats them up because you got a lot of hard pan around the greens. A lot of rubber the green. I played in this year's event. Yeah, these kids don't play off-hard pan very often. And to hit these little bump and run, see these elevated greens is very difficult. But the locals play the golf course in three hours. You don't really lose any golf balls.
Starting point is 01:05:36 You may lose one ball or two. But for the most part, you can keep the ball in play. It's very short. And then they have a great senior event. And they get the best field, they get one of the best fields in the country for the senior event. So these old golf courses to restore, renovate these old golf courses and to bring back some of those quirky features is something we need to continue to to make sure that we don't lose.
Starting point is 01:06:00 I know after after playing that event this year, I immediately came back to the guys and look, all right, we got to go down there and shoot a video because I I didn't get even close to lose. I know after playing that event this year, I immediately came back to the guys and looked, all right, we got to go down there and shoot a video. Cause I didn't get even close to enough of that course playing it over the course of an entire week. I wanted more of it. I thought it was so close to cracking it and I never got to crack it.
Starting point is 01:06:15 Yeah, and you can hit, you can hit every club in your back. Oh yeah. And they have a game down there like if you can hit all, I think they have part threes and the bet is, you know, you get a win of a dozen balls if you hit all par three, all of the par three greens, which is not easy to do because they're very small and they've only gotten smaller. Right. And that 10th hole is one of the wildest golf holes. It's a true throwback golf hole in terms of distance of balls used to go and how much that used to make sense versus now it's,
Starting point is 01:06:44 you snap hook a three-wood or that ball is going out of bounds kind of crazy. So all right well I got to let you go we will have to do this again sometime because there's still plenty of love to unpack with you but thanks for coming coming over to the house and doing this and look for doing again sometime. Sure anytime love it. Cheers. Be the right club today. Yeah. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most.
Starting point is 01:07:12 Better than most. Expect anything different. Expect anything different.

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.