No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 369: Jim Urbina

Episode Date: October 30, 2020

Jim Urbina joins DJ to talk about his career in golf course architecture including his early work under Pete Dye, working under Tom Doak at Pacific Dunes, the creation of Old Macdonald, the restoration at Pasatiempo, and much more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Better than most! Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the No-Lang Up Podcast, DJ Paiowski here filling in for our newly married host, Sally, who I believe was last spotted on Instagram, mowing his new lawn for the first time.

Just all kinds of life changes going on for Sally this week. Congratulations to him, he'll be back soon. In the meantime, we have a very timely podcast today with Jim or Bina. Jim has been in the golf design business for a long, long time. And the reason I'm calling this a timely podcast is that not only was he the co designer of Old McDonald, which you saw in episode four of this season of Taurus sauce. He was also instrumental in building Pacific Dunes with Tom Doak and he also built the punch bowl the putting course at Band and Dunes that we all know and love and all these are things you can see in this season of Taurus sauce

Presented by our good friends at precision pro range finders I got to tell you guys up at Pinehurst this week Cadding for our young hitter Lauren Coglin in the symmetric tour event I did not realize this maybe you guys didn't realize this range finders totally allowed during competition on the Sometra Tour as of this year. That was a great surprise to me and a nice anxiety release to me as I was freaking out for the last week trying to make sure I would be able to get the right numbers. I'm pretty helplessly reliant on my range finder at this point, but all of my fears were put to bed when she told me that

on our way to the first tee, basically, on Tuesday morning. So I will tell you that my precision pro, NX9 rangefinder is now officially competition tested. We used it all day today, all day yesterday. And I gotta say, I think it was working. Lauren had one of only six rounds under part of day in brutal conditions.

Conditions were tough out at Pinehurst number nine. The C-suite, the strap boys and even the NARC. They always come in the NARC in these in these ad reads. You can call me DJ, you can call me the NARC. Either one is fine. We all trust Precision Pro golf to help us pick the right club and swing with confidence. And right now our listeners can get $20 off the best selling NX9 slope range finder by going to precisionpro golf.com and using coupon code no laying up at checkout. That is $20 off our favorite range finder, the NX9 slope swing with confidence,

hit more greens with precision pro golf. Now onto my conversation with Jim Urbina. Jim, where I wanted to start is I saw somewhere I think it was Colorado avid golfer, something like that. Called you a 30 year overnight sensation. First of all, is that a is that a fair characterization? And second of all, what does that mean? You know, it's funny.

You talk about the avid golfer magazine article, a good friend of mine, who I've grown to admire. Tom Farrell, the writer said, you know, Jim, you've been everywhere and nobody knows where you've been. And I kind of laughed and chuckled at that. So maybe that 30-year sensation is aptly coined, but it's true. I've been a lot of places and when I tell people, I've worked at Pasa Tempo, the Mid Ocean Club, the Valley Club, San Francisco Golf Club, you would never know that I was there. So that's kind of a good thing.

I don't put my stamp on it and places like Pactoons, Old Mac, the Punch Bowl, they were all great projects to be a part of, but again, hardly anybody knows that I was there. Yeah, so what's that like for you? What's that been like, you know, kind of being a little bit behind the scenes, I guess? There was a lot of famous behind the scenes guys, if you don't mind, I'll mention a few. If it wasn't for Robert Hunter, a lot of people don't know this.

If it wasn't for Robert Hunter, Aleister McKenzie wouldn't be so famous in California. And if it wasn't for Seth Reiner, Charles Blair McDonnell would have never got off his creation at the National Golf Links of America. So I don't mind and I cherish that behind the scenes addition to the project, but without Seth Reiner, without Robert Hunter, without a lot of the guys who were out there shaping when I did work for Pete die shaping the golf course. Pete would be the

first to tell you that I need shapers. I need guys to help me build these things. It's easy to lay something down on paper, but somebody's got to build it. So I love it. I don't mind it. I cherish it. Well, so it's funny. I know we had Bobby weed on the podcast a couple weeks ago and he was talking with Chris our host about you know This massive tree of architects that all kind of stems stems stems back to to Pete Dine I know you have your own branch on that tree And I'm curious first of all what was your path to getting there to actually like hooking up with

With Pete and and starting to work with him and then second, what was that like? What was your experience with him like? Well, it's funny. I always joke with people that I was an accidental participant. And what I mean by that is I never intended to be a golf course builder, a golf course designer. Pete Dien ever said that we were golf course architects. There's no such thing. You don't go to school to college to be a golf course architect. You go to

school to be a landscape architect, a land planner. Pete Dye was an insurance salesman, a very good player in his own right, but an insurance salesman. So we are all builders. And so I never intended to be in the business, but a lot of people don't know this. I used to fight forest fires in the summertime in college to earn money. And I was getting ready to go take a job with the Lolo National Forest to be in their hot shot crew and possibly be a smoke jumper. But my soon-to-be-wife father-in-law said, yeah, that's not a very good job. You ought to go get a job on a golf course. So I applied, I applied just to make him happy. I applied at a golf course in Colorado, which would be known as the TPC of Blum Creek.

And the architect of record was Pete Dye. I applied, unfortunately, or fortunately, however you look at it, they hired me the next day. And so I started as a ditch digger, a stick picker, a rock raker, and then I got to be a shaper. And then as a lot of people know now today, the rest is history. What was your experience with golf before? I mean, did you play the game

or were you just fighting forest fires? No, I just fought forest fires, and I trained to be a teacher. I was a high school drafting teacher. So I understood how to draw plans, and I understood how to read topography maps. So that little, but knowns to me, that was really a foundation for when I got into the golf business.

I understand how to look at golf courses, how to look at maps in a three-dimensional form. So little did I know possibly I was training for my future career, but at that time in 1982, when I applied to be in a construction part of the golf, a TPC Plum Creek, I was hired again, as I said, to be working in the ditches and to learn how to be a shaper running a bulldozer,

never played golf. And to Pete's credit, Pete never wanted me to learn how to play golf because then he said it would taint my view on how to look and build and design the golf course. Isn't that interesting? That is. And I'm curious what that meant. First of all, I want to mention I was on the high school drafting team. So I feel like I've been training for this interview

to pretend like I know what you're talking about throughout this whole thing. So birds of a feather. You'll be the next famous golf course architect. It just takes time. Be patient. It just takes 30 years. Yeah, it's talked to me in 30 years.

That's right. We'll be dialed. So what do you think he meant by that? I mean, what was the, I don't want you to taint your eye or anything. Does that imply there's some biases? Would you say with architects or what, what did you think he meant there? Absolutely. There's biases and architecture.

Because if you, as some people have said, Jack Nicholas played a high fade. And so some of his designs were Jack Nicholas played a high fade, and so some of his designs were in favor of that high fade. Pete wanted to be the editor. Pete wanted to be the designer, but he appreciated my ability to run a bulldozer and to shape his style of design, and then he would edit it. But he felt, and I believe this to be true today, that if I was a very good golfer,

I possibly would never think about what a high handicap or player would play, how he would play the golf course. Or I would only think about straight shots, high draws, and what the best players and how they play it. So Pete said, let me be the editor, let me be the designer. You build them for me and don't let that game that you play

possibly tank your creativity. So, you know, at that point in your career, I mean, did you have a philosophy on kind of what made a good golf hole and then now, you know, flashing forward, obviously you've done as much research on architects, on strategy, on all these different things, we're storing all these golf courses you've worked on. So I'm curious if that's how that strategy's changed,

I guess, over the years. Well, I never had a plan. I never had a concept. I never had a strategy. I was waiting to be taught. I was waiting to be mentored. And Pete died and his son Perry died, mentored me. They taught me what they wanted.

They sent me to golf courses around the country to emulate some of their designs. I remember Pete died sending me on the plane to Palm Springs to look at a redan hole that he was building while we were doing it at Arizona State University. He said, Jim, get on the plane. I want you to go look at this whole idea in Palm Springs or go get on the plane and go to Pinehurst number two. And as you, as you we speak today, Pete's I told me to go to Pinehurst number two. I have a lot to learn or he would tell me to go to Old Marsh and Florida and see how they did the drainage. So it was Pete who set me on the plane.

She's got to remember I was 22, 23 years old, getting on a plane, going to these golf courses. I didn't get to play. I just walked, walked around pictures, and then I'd come back and build it. I mean, that's a pretty cool job for a 23-year-old. It's a pretty cool job for anybody. I agree. And little did I know that I was beginning my education in golf course design and construction,

being an open book, wanting to learn. Do you know that he sent me, the die family sent me to Scotland to learn how the game was formed? Because I asked a simple question, what does Link's Golf mean? Right. They put me on a plane in 1986. I went to presswick Scotland and I learned about what Link's Golf is. Who does that today? who does that today? Who does that today?

That sounds like the high times of the golf course design business back then it was Yeah, and and again Pete and his son Perry they would send me everywhere I went to the National Golf Links of America back in 19 I believe 1986 while still working for the die family. I was so enamored with the look when I saw it in the book. This is how funny and naive I was. I was looking at a book, a golf architecture book, and I saw a picture of the National Golf Links of America, the 17th hole. And I said to somebody, I can't remember who was standing by me. I said,

look at this golf course. Just looks like what we're doing for Pete. And little did I know that Pete was emulating the national golf links of America. That's how naive I was. What do you remember about all those trips around me? Do you have a couple of specific holes that you saw that were real aha moments or kind of, you know, light switch moments for you? For sure. I remember going to California, Mr. Diet sent me to believe it or not, go see Carmel Valley Ranch.

It was a golf course he did for landmark land in Monterey Peninsula. Set me there and I thought, well, wait a minute. There's some really cool golf courses right next door. Maybe I should go look at those too. And so I went to see Pebble Beach on my own. I went to see Cypress Point on my own and I thought, wow, these golf courses are so beautiful. They're so different.

And yet I was building golf courses for Pete and his son Perry. And I'm thinking, why didn't they send me to Cypress Point or Pebble Beach? So I was starting to gain an appreciation for why golf courses were different. I would go to Carmel Valley, but I would go to Pebble Beach and Cypress Point to study golf course architecture. He would send me to Pinehurst number two, but I'd go see all the

other Donald Ross courses and all of the good golf courses in Pinehurst. I went to the National Golf Rinks of America, but I went to Shinnecock and Madestone, and I started to tour all those golf courses, and I'm thinking, wow, I'm getting this chance to learn about all this architecture. And then he sends me to Scotland and it all starts to make sense to me. All starts to make sense how the game was formed, where its roots were started. And I was hooked. I started reading and I thought I get it now. I get it. The dies sent me to work the game begin and I little did I know that that would pay high dividends years to

come when Mike Kaiser hired us and I helped build Pacific Doons on the coast of Oregon. We're gonna Crescendo with with all the band and stuff I promise we're gonna we're gonna get there for with plenty of that but I hate to ask a question that I'm afraid to hear the answer to, but you weren't playing any golf during this stretch. You're just you're just tooling around. No, no, no, I started to play golf. Okay, good. Okay, good. That would have been tough to hear otherwise. Well, you're gonna laugh. You're gonna laugh. This is again, how naive I was. They sent me to Scotland and I didn't have a golf bag. So I went down to the local,

I lived in Southern California at the time. I went to, have you ever heard of Vans? Oh yeah, the grocery store. Well, there was a Vans golf shop in Southern California. Oh, really? Okay. And so I went and bought a big old golf bag like on the tour. This bag was like about, it was the size of Rod, he changed your fields.

Golf bag and Caddy's shack. And I bought some cheap clubs and I loaded up and I went to Scotland. And when the Caddy saw my bag, he was like, I'm not going to carry that. Yeah, look extremely American when you arrived. Extremely American. Again, remember, I was so naive, and I was starting to learn how to play the game. And I didn't realize it was just as simple

as carrying a Shag bag with five clubs in it. But back then, I was gonna go play golf, so I figured I had to buy this big golf bag. I still have the photo you'll laugh if I ever showed it to you. So how would you describe Pete diet in the field? I mean, what was it like? I know that everybody kind of talks about the whole thing is built on flexibility and

you can't be too rigid with plans and all that stuff. I mean, how much of that was kind of him editing in the field and how much of that was you and you guys kind of having freedom to do what your eyes saw. Well, that's interesting. When I first started shaping a TPC of Plum Creek, I just did what they told me to do. Shape a flat T-spot, build a bunker, create a green site, and I remember shaping on the 16th hole

at TPC of Plum Creek in Castle Rock, Colorado. I started to shape the green and Pete kind of drug his foot foot around in the dirt. And he said, you know, just put it right here, Jimmy. Just put it right here. And so I started shaping it. And he watched me shape. He stood right by the green.

He watched me shape it. And he said, stop, stop, stop, stop. And I got off the dozer and I said, what's wrong? He said, let me show you how to do that. And he jumps on a tractor and he kind of puts the box plate down on this tractor and starts to drag out the shape that he wanted. He said, this is what I want.

If you could do this, this is what I want. So that was my learning curve. That was my inspiration that you didn't look at a set of plans. You just built it in the dirt, and then if you didn't like it, you changed it again. And so years later at Arizona State University, I'll never forget this. We got out and we were getting ready to go walk around the golf course, and an engineer got out and set a plans for behind the seat of the truck. And he started a roll-em Pete died there and a couple of the shapers.

And I was the design associate at that time. I didn't shape it, Arizona State University. I was the onsite design associate. The engineer rolls out this plans and Pete died said, son, we won't be needing those today. And so that was that reinforcement that we're going to go, we're going to follow the routing and we're going to follow the stakes, but we're going to build this in the field. And I remember getting to the 16th hole and Pete would drop down to his knees in the dirt and he would shape this dirt land form. And he would look at me and he'd say, Jimmy,

I want you to just take this green and just think of somebody kneeling in the dirt, okay? He's shaping this green in the dirt and he's taking the flow in the surface and he digs a little hole with his hand and creates a bunker and he shakes the dirt and molds it and he looks up me and says, do you get it? Jim, do you get it?

And I said, yeah, Pete, I got it. So do you see what I'm learning and how to build these golf courses? You build them in the dirt, you take the plans and you set a routing, but then it's time to build them in the dirt and that's what was my foundation for how I even do golf courses today. Hey, everybody, TC here to tell you about wine access.

I'm the one talking about it because this is something that's near and dear to my heart. We have trouble getting good wine down here in Jacksonville. Just not a whole lot of importers and distributors in this area. I've been going nuts on wine access the last two or three weeks here. They set up wineaccess.com,

slash NLU to give users 15% off their first three purchases, which that's coming quite handy. They really just make it so that finding great wine isn't a matter of access or finding the right purveyor. They will bring it all to you. They've got a master's smiley on staff. They've got a master of wine. They've got all sorts of expertise in this area. All sorts of Santa Rita Hills, Pino Norse at Nimmi Cart right now. We've got a lot of Northern Roan stuff. We've got a whole big refuge wine club

meets every week. And really, as far as wine goes, you may have some questions about buying it online and getting it shipped. They've got zip by zip temperature controlled shipping and satisfaction guarantee. So they will credit you for any bottle that fails to impress.

They've also got a new podcast, the wine access podcast. Yeah, actually launched just a few days ago. Go check that out wherever you get your podcasts and check out wineaccess.com slash NLU. They've got a wine club as well. And yeah, some of the best prices out there and probably the best selection I've seen online.

Now, let's get back to the pod. So I know I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but you obviously worked with Tom Doak for I think 17, 18 years, something like that. And one of the projects that just kind of springs to mind as you're talking about some of this stuff is subonic and trying to collaborate there with Jack Nicholas and kind of a pretty famous collaboration there.

I'm curious how a system like that works when you basically have two architects, two teams, all of those kinds of factors, and you're trying to figure out how to also be flexible. Is that the right way to say it? Well, you have to be flexible. There was actually three architects. A lot of people don't know that.

There were three architects at Sibonic. There was Mr. Jack Nicholas, Tom, and Michael Pascucci, the owner. So when Jack and Tom needed a tiebreaker, Michael Pascucci filled in. So the owner always has a hand in the look and the style of the architecture because he spent some money, he's acquired the land, he has some ideas.

So we as builders, we as designers, listen to the owner, but it was really three people involved in the subonic. But yes, the architect of record was Tom Doak and Jack Nicholas. And I was assigned to blend that together and create features as the onsite design associate, show the shapers what we were going to do, float the greens out, work with the superintendent, Garrett Boddington, to manage all of that and create what you see today, Subannan Golf Club. Have you ever played it? I have it, no.

I will tell you that it is a thought process of two designers and an owner that, you know, the Greens are somewhat, say, are pretty difficult. It's a true test of golf, as good players would say. It hosted the US Women's Open, and it was a test for them. Michael wanted a golf course that people would enjoy, but yet still be tested.

And Mr. Nicholas and Tom provided that, and I was a fortunate, a very fortunate participant in that, and little did i know that uh... someday twenty five years later i'd be working with the iconic jack nickless who would have thought a guy who never played golf who didn't understand the game would be working with the one of the iconics of

all time how how did you notice his style different than you know mister die or or kind of what your own style had dim at that time? Well, Jack had his holes that he wanted to build design. He had very good success at some of his best golf courses, Mirfield, in Ohio, and some of his great golf courses in Arizona and in Florida.

He knew what his style that he wanted. And what Tom and I brought was the naturalism, the routing that Tom had produced. So there was a blend of good architecture in the routing, a good style of shaping and the bunkers and greens and the presentation and the strategy that Nicholas brought with his game. I'll never forget one day we were Jack and I had a lot of fun.

A lot of fun on that project and I remember one day we were talking about adjusting the bunker and I was standing in the bunker and it was on the seventh hole at Subonic and I was saying, well, if you stand right here, you could get the ball hit it outside ways. And Jack said to me, he says, what, hit it outside ways, you got to be able to hit it to the green. And I said, well, you know, always have a hit it to the green. And he said, a good player would want to be able to do that. So you can see the difference between my, again, my, between my, again, my thought process and shaping the golf hole and the thought process of a tour player,

18-time major champion, seeing I got to get out of this bunker. If I get in it and I got to get to the green, you can see the difference in the style of architecture. Yeah, you guys may have been coming at it from slightly different perspectives. But in the end, Michael Pascoot, you got the golf course that he wanted, a very beautiful setting. I hope you get to play it someday. And Jack got what he wanted, Renaissance golf, Tom got what he wanted, and me at the participant got to enjoy all of it. Well, I definitely want to get into some more stuff with you and Tom and some band and stuff. Before I do, I know you worked on a lot of the Japanese golf courses as well.

Was that late 80s, early 90s timeframe? Is that right? That was actually that's how I evolved from the shaper, the shaper of the dive family, to working on plans for Asian golf courses on the Asian rim with Pete's son Perry. I moved into the office and I started doing grading plans and drainage plans and a green's detailed plans. And so I evolved into starting to do that. But I only actually was involved with one in the field.

And that was Sessantzo Country Club. I'll never forget it. And that was my foray into Japanese golf. I'm telling you what, that was an eye opener for me. I learned a lot, and I can tell you that the Japanese at that time in the late 80s were fanatics about golf course architecture, golf course design. And I built, I shaped and built an island green at Sazamso Country Club, one of the best I was ever part of.

Yeah, I'm dying to get to Japan and it just every aspect of golf in Japan fascinates me. And so when I saw that, I read that you had worked on so many of those, that kind of sent my mind into a bit of a craze. But yeah, what was the, you know, what were the big sticking points of design over there? What were kind of the obsessions

or what was the difference between what you were doing here and what was really being asked for over there? Well, I can tell you that my evolution and golf course design and construction has come 360 degrees. Remember, I started with Pete Dye, the TPC at Plum Creek, a championship golf course. And then they sent me to Scotland to steady links golf.

And then I started to work for Renaissance golf, with Renaissance golf for 17 years. But all through that process, never did I think I was going to be building the golf course in Japan. The Japanese loved water features. That was one of the most important things to them. The beauty of the golf course, the garden concept, I was involved with a golf course that had a 25 foot waterfall. That I am not kidding you. The water, think with me now, think with me, you're not gonna believe this.

Cezanzo Country Club had water that cascaded off the clubhouse into a pool on the 18th green, surrounding 270 degrees of the green. And then that pool cascaded down into a waterfall almost 20 feet into the fairway below. And that stream then emptied into the big pond that had the island green. That tell me they didn't love water feature. I'm surprised Mr. Kaiser didn't ask you to run that back at Ole McDonald's.

Well, you know, a lot of people give me a hard time about you know, fountains and waterfalls. That's not my specialty. Maybe I got burned out while I was in Japan. Well, changing gears then a little bit. I mean, how did, how did you connect with Tom Doke for the first time and kind of how did that relationship start? I first met Tom at the TPC of Plum Creek.

He had just come from Long Cove Golf Club in South Carolina. And he had come to the TPC of Plum Creek. We were almost done with construction, but he was on the construction crew. He was in charge of helping pick sticks and rake. And I met him and I thought he was kind of an odd kind of guy because a friend of mine in the construction business, the project manager at the TPC and Plum Creek, we knew that Tom was a lover of baseball statistics.

So Steve was his name, bought a book on statistical points of baseball, and we used to quiz Tom all the time, all day long, about certain baseball things. We'd hide the book behind our back, and we'd read something and then quiz him like we really knew and cared. And you know, you know, he'd come up with the answers. And Steve and I would just slap each other and think, God, this guy knows everything about baseball. So that was our running joke between us. So that's where I first met Tom.

He went on to go do other work on his own. He got his own, his first client at high point in and in Traverse City, Michigan. And I continue to work with the dies. But, you know, after eight or nine years, I just, I just was ready for something different. And I kid people and I kid this, but with all due respect, I remember being able to move a million cubic yards in my sleep almost, because that's kind of what Pete did. And I was just time for a change, and I called Tom up, and I said, hey, you know, I'm ready to do something different.

And he knew that I had been traveling and seeing golf courses like the National Golf Links of America, and he knew I had been to Pinehurst and he knew I had been to Cypress Point. So he knew that I was, you know, something of a bit of an oddity that I didn't play golf, but I would see some of the best golf courses

in the United States and had been to St. Andrews. So he wanted to talk to me. So we met and I said, you know, I'm ready to do something different. So I signed on with Renaissance Golf Design. A lot of people don't know this. It was Tom, Doke, Gil hands and myself for a small point in time. We all, we all worked together. And I was in charge of Charlotte golf links. Golf course in Charlotte, North Carolina, well, Tom and Gil were working at Stonewall.

And so Tom would come down and check on me, you know, about every, I don't know, eight weeks, six to eight weeks. So I really built the golf course on my own, well, Gil and Tom were up at Stonewall. And then Gil came down for the last couple of visits and helped me with the construction of the 17th and 18th at Charlotte Golf Links. So that's how I began my career with Renaissance Golf

Design at Charlotte Golf Links. And then I went on to go on and build and work with Tom on many projects. Some of my most beloved is a golf course in Arizona called Apache Stronghold. I wish this was still open today. It was such a beautiful desert setting and maybe someday they'll bring it back. Well, I feel like, obviously people listening to this podcast know Tom's name.

They know his golf courses, they know his work, but as somebody who has known him so closely for so long and worked with him so closely for so long, you know, I don't want to say what is, what is he best at, but what impresses you most about him as far as his skill set goes or his talent level goes? You know, it's funny. A couple of people have asked me that.

And what I learned most about a Tom Doke designed golf course, constructed golf course is that 75% of the battle is the land. It's not about the greens, although they're important. And it's not about the bunkers, although they're important. The routing is very important. But just think about this. If you have this land that is just off the charts, topography, beauty, character, sand, those were all the ingredients for some of the best golf courses I had seen. And so it made sense that as in Tom's liking,

if you got the land to start with, Pacific Dunes on the coast of Oregon, that you had already solved 75% of the battle. So that's what I learned most about Tom. And that's today what I still do when I'm looking at designs on my own. Find the best piece of land, work with the people that know that land's important, and you're 75% of the way there.

Well, one thing I do gotta ask, I know we had Mike Kaiser on our first band in episode, and he was kind of given some of the backstory about the project getting started and he had a line in there, you know, I would have loved to have hired Tom, but he was terrible Tom at the time. And I'm curious if you could shed some light on maybe what that means. And no light, no shedding, let's go on to the next question. Yeah, no, I assume that it had to be, you know, it had to be a bit of him just being steadfast in his design. Is that fair characterization? You know, all designers, whether it be McDonald, CB McDonald, Elishter McKenzie, Perry Maxwell, some of my favorites,

Donald Ross, you have to have passion and you have to have a willingness to know and to do the right thing. And you know as well as I do. If somebody was to give you this unbelievable piece of land and then ask you to put in fountains and waterfalls, you would have to speak your piece, right? Right, absolutely. And so honesty sometimes isn't the best policy,

but what I learned from Pete Die is that just be honest, do the best you can and everything will work out. And I think that Tom was honest, that he, when he saw a good piece of property, if you thought that adding a pond or a fountain or a waterfall was a good idea, he was going to tell you something different. And that's no different than Aleister McKenzie, no different than AWT to ask no different than CB McDonald. The conviction to do the right thing, the conviction to think what you have in your mind is the right

the conviction to think what you have in your mind is the right puzzle, solving the puzzle on this piece of land. And so you have to have conviction and you have to stand by that. How did you guys complement each other? I mean, what was kind of his strengths? What were your strengths? I'm curious how that relationship was. We were total opposite. That's how we complement each other. Well, I'm honest. I'm being honest with you. We were total opposite. And so when he was thinking about this idea for the green or this idea for the bunker, I was thinking of something different. Remember my background, I didn't go to Cornell

to train in landscape architecture where Mr. Jones went. I went to the school of dirt and construction, Pete died. And so we were opposite. And I believe, I believe deep down in my heart because we were so opposite of each other that the products that we produced

were the benefit of us both thinking in different ways and different things and in different possibilities for a different outcome. But blending that all together to get the right green site, to get the right fairway contour, to get the right green site, to get the right fairway contour, to get the right bunker strategy, always thinking different, not saying and agreeing with him, but being polar opposite, that was the best compliment we could give each other.

Well, obviously you were, you were heavily involved with Pacific Dunes, which will be the episode that's airing this coming Tuesday that we're running. But I'm curious kind of when that project first came up, when even before that, I mean, when the first time you heard about band and dunes, I mean, what was that story like? Well, the first time that Tom said, meet me, because I lived in Denver,

I live in Denver, Colorado. Tom lived in Traverse City. He wanted me to move to Traverse City and be in an office and I said, well, you know, it doesn't make sense for me to do that. Since we're going to always be on site anyway, how about I live in Denver and I'll just meet you wherever we need to meet. And so he agreed to that. And I remember him giving me a call and said, meet me in Bannon., we're gonna go walk the site for what's gonna be the second golf course at Band-In-Dunes Resort. And so I remember landing in Eugene, Oregon. Have you flown into Eugene?

I have. So just think of me, a Neophyte still, landing in Eugene, Oregon, and there's a camera crew. There's a four or five piece camera crew that's on the plane with me, and they're landing in Eugene, and they're getting these big SUVs, and they're headed to North Bend, Coo's Bay, and they're asking for directions.

And I'm thinking, what's this camera crew doing here? I'm going down that way too. Little did I know they were covering a ship had gone aground. Do you ever remember that story? No. Yeah, there was a big freighter, a container ship that had broke loose and grounded itself on the beach in North Bend, Cougs Bay. And I was on the plane with the big camera crew that was coming to cover the breaking story.

And I'm thinking, what's this place must be famous? Wow, I'm going to be following this camera crew down there. But little did I know, I was still going to go 20 minutes south to a town called Band-in. I remember driving into the town of Band-in looking for the property. And they said, no, you got to go north, and I was just so confused and trying to find the property, it took me all day to find it. By the time I got to the property, it was the end of the day. But that's when I met Tom and Mr. Kaiser, and the next day was a total IOP opener of the

day we walked the property. Well, tell me about it. What do you remember? And the next day was a total eye opener the day we walked the property. Well, tell me about it. What was, what do you remember? I remember thinking how beautiful this place was. I remember that we were asked to play bandend dunes. They had, we're doing some preview rounds. And I remember playing bandend dunes.

It was me, Mr. Kaiser, Tom, I think Josh Lesnik was there. Shoe was, if he didn't cady for us, he had arranged to get some cady's. And I remember raining. And I remember walking around the golf course at bandendoons thinking, well, this is the first go around from Mr. Kaiser. We're gonna get to do the second piece of, and dunes thinking, well, this is the first go around from Mr. Kaiser, we're gonna get to do the second piece of second golf course, where is our land at?

Because I didn't get a chance to see the land, but when we got to the sixth and seventh hole, I remember being pointed looking to the North, saying, that's our land up there, and I'm thinking, wow, we are so fricking lucky. I couldn't believe what my eyes had gazed upon. It reminded me of those golf course landforms of Scotland and Ireland that I had toured 20 years ago.

So I could hardly wait to make the first walk around with Mr. Kaiser and Tom, and I remember us walking and walking and looking and thinking and working on the routing and trying to come up with ideas so that we would go back to the hotel at Bandon. There was no lodge at the time. We stayed in the hotel abandoned, overlooking the minute cafe. Have you ever ate at the minute cafe? I have. So that's a great place, right? Yeah, absolutely. We would go down to the minute cafe, have breakfast, and then we drive back to abandoned. And for three or four days straight, we walked and walked and looked always trying to find how this routing was going to come about and I thought to boss I just kept saying to myself over and over. I can't believe I'm on the coast of Oregon

I can't believe we're going to get a chance to build this golf course I can't wait to get started. Can we start tomorrow? So when you're when you're going second, you know, that's that's been the joke that I think Tom and David kid have kind of said a bunch is, you know, what would you do differently? And David keeps saying, well, I would have gone second, you know, kind of implying that that there's, there's quite a bit of advantage to going second. I'm curious if that's how you guys felt and and be kind of what, what was that advantage? What did you guys see as things that you could improve upon? Well, I'm not so sure that it was improving upon, but I believe that it was doing something different.

And the recollection of golf holes that were inspirational to me were presswick and St. Andrews and Royal Trune and Western Gales. Those were the holes that were inspirational to me. And when I looked at band and dunes, I thought, well, we gotta do something different than that. And Tom was on board with that. He already knew that we were gonna do something different.

So when David says, you get to go second, you gotta remember, and you have to give David kid credit. He had to show Mr. Kaiser what Lynx Golf was about. Although my Kaiser had played Lynx Golf, David Kid was able to bring that style of architecture, not having the clubhouse on the coast, having the golf course route out to the ocean and back. And we were now in charge of doing something different. And I'll never forget one of the shapers that worked for us is by the gentleman by the name of Tony Russell. And he has done shaping for Bill Cour.

He has done shaping for us. He has done shaping for David Kidd. He's done shaping for a lot of people. And I remember walking him up on the land, which is now the ninth hole in Pacific Dunes. And I remember telling him, see that golf course down there, Tony? We're gonna do nothing like it.

And he started laughing because he thought, wait a minute, that golf course is a highly ranked golf course. And I said, well, it's highly ranked, but we can't be like that. We have to be something different. And our land is different. So we have to come up with some different style of design, of bunk green, of greens, and our locations are going to be different. So I knew Tom knew that we were going to do something completely different. But we

also had to respect that at that time, band and dunes was highly ranked and highly, highly thought of. And we were just going to try to do the best we could to match David, kids, work at band. So for those who have been there or those who haven't, I mean, how would you kind of specifically explain, you know, how the styles are different if that makes sense? Well, I always explain to people that Pacific Dooms Greens are on the ground. They're within inches of where they were in the routing, if that makes sense. Yeah. So when you go to the seventh hole at Pacific Dunes, those bounds in front and those blowouts on the left side,

I have a photo of that. I know what that looked like before we got started and it's not much different than what it is today, other than a little bit of shaping of the green sight. When you go to the 16th green at Pacific Dooms, that bunker in the back, what we affectionately called Josh's pit behind the green, that was there. That green surface was within inches of what you saw. The ninth green, the lower green, that's within inches of what was already there. So we were building a golf course and taking the land forms that were there within inches and just massaging them to get ready for a putting green. And I thought, wow, we're taking these beautiful green sights, 16, lower nine, 11, 11 was, what a beautiful setting.

I could go on and on. You could understand my passion for the beauty of Pacific Dunes. It was on the ground, those bunkers were there. It was just clearing the land and installing irrigation and sowing the seed so that when you walked and played the golf course, it looked like we didn't do a thing. And then how did the process of old maggots started then? Well, little did I know when we were working at Pacific Dunes, I always looked at land

over there thinking, no, that's going to be a golf course someday. I wonder who's going to get to do that. Ten years later, Mike Kaiser calls us back because he enjoyed, I believe he enjoyed working with us so much. I certainly did with Mike. He had this idea to build the Lido. So the Lido was McDonald and Seth Rainer's second best golf course, some people would say compared to the National. But Mike always wanted to do the Lido, but we couldn't fit

the actual lay of the land golf course on the land he had given us. So the idea was brought about that we would build golf holes with the inspiration of McDonald and Rainer, the template holes. And so we simply took the golf course topography that Mike gave us. And we instituted the four automatic template holes, short, Eden, the beer vits, and the red ban. In any McDonald and Rainer golf course, you always had to have those four one shot holes. Mike understood that we were going to do a lead-o style golf course, not exactly,

but a lead-o style golf course, using the templates that make McDonald and Rainer were famous for. And so that's how the routing came about. And with the help of Mike Kaiser, he is such a perfect person to work for. He never tells you, he never says, you got to do this and got to do that. He listens to you. We walk around. He makes suggestions.

It was such an honor to work for them at Pacific Doons and it was such an honor to work at Old Matt. Creating his idea of what McDonald and Rainer would have done with that piece of ground, I think that we did our best effort and some of the best holes, the Alps, the Channel Hole, the Punch Bowl, the double plateau with the principles, nose. I thought we did a pretty good job, not exactly like McDonald's Rader did, but used that inspiration to create old McDonald.

And as you know, those greens are some of the biggest greens you'll ever play. Still not as big as St. Andrews, but pretty dog-gone big. Do you feel like there's a lot of creativity working with template holes? Do you feel like there's restraint working with the template holes? How did you find that to be? Good question. That's a great question. And the reason that's a tough question to answer is because you know that the redan based on the 16th hole at North Barrick. You know that the redan, based on the 16th hall at North Barrick, you know that it has to play from right to left. It's a fortress. And you know the short has to play 135 to 145.

And it should have a thumbprint in it. And you know that the Eden should have the Strath bunker and the Eden estuary behind it. So those are some of the foundations for the Template holes, but taking those Template holes and applying them, no different than when McDonald Rainer did at Yale, at Fisher's Island, at Camargo, at Shore Acres, at Chicago Golf Club, applying those Template holes to the land given to you, that is the artistry that we and I got to enjoy doing. Now, somebody would say, well, you know, the road hole, how many times are you going to do that? Well, we did the road hole with inspiration

from McDonald and Rainer and the 17th of St. Andrews, but we put our twist on it. We put our twist on the short. I remember walking Mike Kaiser up to that green for the first time, number five at Old Mac. We had walked the hogs back and we got to number five. It was Mike Kaiser, myself and Ken Nies. He is the superintendent, growing for Pacific Dunes and Old Mac.

And he is now the director of grounds and director of all the golf courses there. Ken Nice was the reason Pacific Dunes turned out so good. Ken Nice and his crew as the reason Old Mac turned out so good. It's the agronomics and it's the superintendents that pour their heart and soul into the agronomics of the golf course architecture. So Ken and I were walking down with Mr. Kaiser and we got to the fifth hole short. And I had the flagged out with pink flags. You got to remember it was all sand after Tony Rosso and I had shaped it. And I had the green flagged out and Mike walked up to Ken and I, Ken and I said, he says, Jim, how big is that green?

And I said, I don't know, Mike, I don't know. And so, I was trying to, I was trying to forget he asked that question because I knew he was going to be concerned. So we walked a little bit, we walked up on it, and he said, Jim, how big is that green? I said, you know, I don't know Mike, and by then I figured out he wanted to know how big it was. And so Ken and I paced it off,

and it was like I said to Mike, I said, it's around 17,000 square feet. And Mike and his typical Mr. Kaiser way just kind of looked and said, hmm, 16,000 square feet, 17,000 square feet. So we walked around it. And I said, Mike, it fits the scale. And the ocean is in the background. And nothing can compete with the Pacific Ocean. So I thought the scale looked right. He accepted the fact that it you know it was going to work. I showed them all the ways to put around it. I made sure that there was a bump to hold this pin and

there was a bump to feed the ball and it didn't have the thumbprint like all the other shorts had but it had three distinct pinning locations and that's what McDonald and Rainer always tried to do and all their shorts. But we put our twist on it, 16 to 17,000 square feet, a lot of fun to play. I could put on that green all day long. So after we had discussed

how the putting surface was going to work, again, it wasn't copying the template holes exactly, it was using inspiration. So we went to the sixth hole long, we created the hell bunker, and Mike wanted a way to play around it. So we gave you 90 feet of fairway to play around the hell bunker.

And I got a little creative on the green. Mike Kaiser was suggesting to create the ocean hole at Old Mac the seventh. And so it was a combination of inspirations of the template holes. And I believe that we delivered in the same way that McDonald and Rainer would have done for anyone of their clients in the 1910, 1920 era.

I can tell you that green at five is big. It doesn't make it any easier to make it two though. That's for sure. I don't know who shaped it, but it's hard to put. Tony Russell and I shape. Oh, I love that green. It's so cool. I love it. I float all the greens out on all of the golf courses I was involved with, except for number two, the Eden, Brian Slahnik, a very talented, shaper, floated that one out.

So obviously you've got the templates in the back of the mind, probably, at all times, even well, well before Old Mac. I'm curious, does it feel ever, do you ever feel hesitant to go to him or does it, is it always kind of a nice trick up your sleeve? I'm thinking about 17 at Pacific Doons, for instance. You know, does that make sense to, do you know right when you see it?

Like this fits a red anor is it, is it something you're trying to work in? How does that work? I got to tell you a story. A lot of people don't know this. So we got to the 17th hole of Pacific Doons. And that wasn't the original way the hole was going to play. 16, 17 and 18. Don't think about how that plays play. 16, 17, and 18, don't think about how that

plays now. 16 and 17 and 18 were going to be different in the routing. But it turns out that the 16th hole that you played today was a, was a camp miss hole. So we climbed up the hill and, and we, and we played down to the Northeast, with a short one, one shot hole, the 17th. And Tom and I played with that, we played with that, and we played with that. And neither of us ever said to each other the dreaded R word. And I said to him, I'll never forget standing there. I said, you're going to build the R here, aren't you? And he's, And he wouldn't answer me, and he wouldn't answer me. And we played around with it and played around with it.

And it just kept evolving, it kept evolving. And we were done at one at the end of the day. We were walking in down 18. And I said, you couldn't help yourself. You had to do it. You did it, didn't you? You built the R. I refused to say it, but it was the redan.

And so that was our little moment in time at Pacific Dooms. Mike Kaiser came back, walked the whole, really liked it. Tom was happy the way it turned out, but there's always one of those whole sitting in every routing. There's always one of those templates that could be used because you're used to them. You love them. You've seen them. You understand where they came from. The road hole at St Andrews, iconic golf hall, the red carpet, iconic golf hall. So they're always in the back of your mind. Do they need to be in every new golf course

and never new routing? Well, if you ask David Kid, he says, come on, Jim, you've got to build your own designs. You can't use those templates all the time. And you're right. You don't use those templates all the time. But 17 at Pacific Dooms, it just kept evolving into the R hole and eventually it ended up being, but it's a great hole. I love to play it. It's perfect for the wind direction that it plays into in the summer. And even in the winter, it's a great hole. I love it. So what? It's the redan. I'll finally say it. Well, I don't want to assume here, but I mean, obviously since old Mac and since Pacific Doons, you've done a ton of restoration work, renovation work, and a lot

of stuff that really has to do with a lot of these template holes and a lot of this kind of golden age architecture. I got to assume old Mac was a massive help in that process, right? Well, I always, my favorite golf course is the National Golf Flinks of America. It has been since 1986 when I first went to see it while work of Verdais. And so I fell in love with it, and I thought to myself, what if I could build this Sunday, who would have thought 20 years later I would be doing that? So never say never. But I can tell you that I have some new designs with Mr. Kaiser, I have a new design layout with Michael Kaiser, and I think about those holes, I think about

the punch ball, I think about the elps when laying out these golf courses, but are they gonna look like the punchball at Old Mac or the national or Camargo or Fisher's Island? No, they're not, but they were the foundation for many links golf holes in Scotland and Ireland because the greens were in these natural punch-spole settings. So you have to think about them when you're laying out new designs.

And so I'll never forget them. They always draw inspiration, but to say that I would do one, I don't think so, but you never know. So you said the word punch-ball a couple times, which reminded me of another contribution of yours at Bannon Doomsd. Of course the the putting course the punchball what was what was that like to build and and I got it was it just kind of cathartic to actually be able to go nuts and build six percent slopes and all these things you could never do on a real golf course or what what did that feel like. Well that was that's funny I remember getting a call from Mike Geiser and he says,

Jim, I'd like to do a putting course, a big putting course. And I said, Mike, you mean like the one, the ladies putting course in St Andrews? And he says, yes. And I had been to St Andrews and I had put it on it. So I knew exactly what he was trying to do. So I sent Mike for locations at the Bandondoons Resort that could be possible locations for a putting course,

not punchball at the time, but a putting course, much like the one at the ladies putting course in St. Andrews. So one of the sites was behind Bandond trails. Another site was that open grass area by the first T and Old Mac. I found another site out by the practice ground. And then the last site I drew up

or I labeled in a map was the one at Pacific Dunes. A lot of people don't know this, but we were originally gonna build a one-shot hole in that location at Pacific Doons, where you would tee it up by the clubhouse and you just hit a shot down by a green that we built. But we never did that. We were always talking about doing that. But when Mike decided on the location for the punch bowl, on the location for the punch bowl, I started to clear the land and started to come up with land forms and how I was going to shape it. And the first iteration that I did, Mike said,

you think what you put it on the day you were there was crazy. You should have seen the first iteration. I was like going nuts. I would started with the bulldozer, and then I got on an excavator, and I started shaping with an excavator, and I would go in a counter-clockwise rotation. And then when I was done, I would go back in a clockwise rotation, with the same excavator, creating all these leader features.

I never thought about how it would route and put and play. I was just creating features. And then I walked Mike, Josh, Desnick, and some of the Kemper people around and showed him how you would put an arrow down and you would do like the ladies putting course. You would point the arrow in the direction and then you could put the hole wherever you wanted to put it. And I actually had two 18 hole roundings laid out, but they decided to go one 18 hole roundings that you could play in different directions. So the first iteration, we all walked around it,

and Mike asked if I could, you know, change this a little bit and change that a little bit. So I did all of that. It took me, oh geez, three or four or five days to float it all out with help from Marcus, who was the superintendent of the old Mac now. He helped me float it out. We built it with the maintenance crew from Pacific Dunes.

And we did it all in about a month, a lot of fun to play, a lot of fun to build. I didn't have no plans, I just built it, had Mike do a little bit of edit work and we shaped it and opened up and it's perfect for what it's purposes, for social fun, interaction, puts that you would never think about,

puts that you're going to discover. It's the perfect compliment, Mr. Kaiser, always thinking, and what a fun place to hang out. I remember the first time you and I spoke, you asked me if I had been to the punch bowl, and I said, I've even been there sober a couple times. It is such a cool spot. It's just the kind of place that makes you feel like

a eighth grade kid to just hang out and run around with your buddies all day. It's just, it's awesome. Well I told Mike one time that I think I should go build one of these in every city across the United States. What better way to teach and tell people about golf courses by just handing them a putter and a ball. If I could find out who I would

talk to in New York, I'd love to do a punch bowl putting course in Central Park. What if they had a little booth, they handed out a putter and a ball, and families could go put like it's St. Andrews. I wish I could talk to somebody on the board in Central Park and say, let me build a punchball putting course in Central Park and you'll see the social aspects of people having fun with family and friends. 100% that's an awesome idea. I know we've kept you for a while here.

The only other thing I wanted to, well I want to ask you about a lot more stuff, but I'll limit it to one more thing and that's your restoration at Pasitimpo, which just turned out so freaking cool. I mean, we were there a couple years ago and that place is just otherworldly. I'm curious how that how that starts. I think this is probably a bigger question, but I mean, when you go to to one of these clubs and you've been a lot of the historical ones, I know

you haven't been tall of all the clubs. San Francisco Golf Club, a lot of those. I mean, that's got to be a that's got to be quite a process to start figuring out exactly what we want to do something, Jim, what should we do? And so I guess I'll limit it to Positimpo, what was that process like with them? Well, you know, Alex the McKenzie died and lived and died on the sixth hole at Positimple. His house was there. And so the mandate from the committee, the mandate from the general manager, the mandate from the membership was that this golf course,

although had gone through modernization, it had gone through iterations from other golf architects, it was time to recapture the essence of what Marion Hollins said to Aleister McKenzie and Robert Hunter, build me the POSA Temple golf club. And so when the committee, the membership, the general manager, Scott Hoyt, who is now there, just a man that is superintendant, when they said we are going to restore this to the best of your ability, Jim, help us restore this to what Alistair McKenzie had. I took aerial

photographs. I took ground photos. I worked with Bob Beck, the historian, for 20 years, a labor of love to recapture what Alerster McKenzie and Robert Hunter had done. And with Marion Hollins as the lead developer, bringing out the best of what McKenzie did at Pasademo, restoring that a labor of love with the help of superintendents, general managers, archives, aerials, the goal, and nothing will be ever done to post a temple that is out of character of what Alan McMaster McKenzie would have done. And did.

What, how would you, for someone who's never been there, what makes that place so special to you? Well, first of all, it's the landform and the camp of the landform towards the ocean. Second of all, it's the barankas or the ravines that are located and intermixed about the golf course. It's the walk, it's the elevation changes, it's the the the bunk green, the style of green. It's all of those things in a beautiful setting, looking out towards the Pacific Ocean. It's one of the great roundings in golf,

in a land plan development. That land plan was done by the Olmsted brothers who laid out Central Park as a matter of fact. So Mackenzie working with the Olmsted brothers, working with Robert Hunter, working with the Vision of fact. So, Mackenzie, working with the Olmsted brothers, working with Robert Hunter, working with the Vision of Marion Hollins, creating a golf course that's easy to walk, entertaining, using the natural features of the burrancas,

the landforms, the helix, the valleys, and creating a golf course that could be enjoyed by all. It's something that you have to experience. It's something you have to see. And to know that Mackenzie would walk out of his house and hit balls on the sixth hole and call it his home, that's a special place open to the public. Everybody should see it.

Well, I will get you out here and this one. a special place open to the public. Everybody should see it. Well, I will get you out here on this one. I know we're obviously rolling out a ton of band and videos. We had Old Mac last week. We had Pacific Dooms this week. So since you're in a unique position to answer this question, give me your favorite thing about Old Mac, your favorite thing about Pacific Dooms. I'll tell you my favorite story about Pacific Dunes. And there's many, there's many. But I'll never forget they had preview play on the first 12 holes at Pacific Dunes. And I was coming in on the evening, walking from number 13 green,

I had walked down 13 green, down three fairway, and I had come up on top of the 3T box and down into the second green at Pacific Dunes. And I ran into a couple of foursome that was playing. And they said, where are you coming from? Are you playing? I said, no, I'm coming from the other part of the golf course that will be open next year. And this lady looked at me and she says,

you know, I have enjoyed my walk here on this golf course. I don't even play golf and it's one of the most beautiful walks I've ever had. And I just stopped and I was stunned that somebody that doesn't play golf, but enjoys the beauty of outdoors, described Pacific Doons like a park that she could stroll through every day. But if she had only known what we had done to create Pacific Doons,

it was the highest compliment I could ever have. And I thought to myself, the beauty, as Mackenzie said, the walk, the specialness of somebody who observed it from a non-golfing eye, it was the highest compliment I could ever have. Well, that seems like a good place to cap it. Jim, I sincerely appreciate the time and appreciate your work. It's been awesome getting to know the banding golf course a little bit more and that's in huge part thanks to your help. So I appreciate it. We got to do this again sometime. I love it. You can tell my passion for what I do. Working with Mr. Kaiser, working on the coast of Oregon. Call me back anytime.

Alrighty. We'll take care and thanks again. Thank you. Be the right club today. Yeah. That's better than most. How about it? That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most.