No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 370: Matt Fitzpatrick

Episode Date: November 2, 2020

Matt Fitzpatrick made some headlines with some of his comments a few weeks ago. He joins the pod to add some context behind those comments, the relationship between distance and the game of golf, Bryson, and course setups. We also go deep on Augusta as we turn our attention towards the Masters, getting into some of his specific notes from his yardage book, what it takes to compete there, and a lot more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Sully here, I am back. I want to give a shout out to DJ Pye for filling in for me.

Did a great interview with Jim or Beena last week talking about Old MacDonald, talking about Pacific Doons, which we're right in between those two episodes airing on our YouTube channel for our band in Taurus Sauce, Season Oregon Taurus Saas season, I should say. So go check that out if you have not. That was released later this past week, I think on Thursday. And the boys, of course, we're filling in on my wedding weekend. Appreciate the review of the wedding that came on the podcast as well as a great time. But I'm anxious to get back to where I get back to golf masters is right around the corner. So I wanted to talk to one of the top players in the world. Matt Fitzpatrick talked to him about Augusta. We went deep. We go into the yardage book talking about notes he has on specific holes and things like that. I hope it's interesting. It was

definitely, definitely interesting to me. I love nerding out on that stuff. And if you liked it, there's going to be more of that later this week on the podcast. We're really turning our heads towards the masters. Not going to talk a lot about a lot of golf that happened this past week. I honestly didn't get to watch any Bermuda. I've been honeymooning in my new house in Jacksonville.

I hadn't really actually didn't make it out of town, but it's been a great, great getaway for a couple of weeks. Do want to give a shout out though, to Kalim Shinkwin. I hope I'm saying that right. It is three wins in a row on the European tour for Kaloay equipment, three wins in a row globally for the ChromeSoft X. He was using the ChromeSoft X triple track plus the triple track double wide putter. You've heard us talk about this.

You've heard us talk about 88% of golfers are not lining up properly. How much the triple track does help you? And also check out the pictures. Cowboy golf's got some of them. He hit his his ball into a random bag of cans this past week, which was floating around there on social media. Maverick sub zero 10 and a half degree driver, a 16 and a half degree fairway wood. He's got the X forge utility 21 degree utility. I or Neil calls that prime time, 21 degree for Deon Sanders. He uses the Apex MB wedges, JAWS MD5 wedges, the triple track double

wide putter as I mentioned, and the the chrome soft X 20 triple track ball, the 2020 golf ball. So congratulations to Calum, you can find out more about that at calowake golf.com. We're going to talk a lot of Bryson stuff here with Matt Fitzpatrick, distant stuff, all that kind of fun stuff. So we really appreciate the time from him and without any further delay, here he is. So you're still doing interviews after you made some headlines a few weeks ago. I am, yeah. I am.

I want to get into the specifics. But first, I want to know, what's that like for someone in your shoes when maybe something like that happens, you might are trying to say something, maybe it didn't come out right or maybe it's not presented in the way you meant it. What's that scramble like after something like that happens? Yeah, it was quite strange really because for me, I've been very lucky in my golfing time, I guess, that I've never really had that before. I'd like to think I've always been one for sort of giving my opinion and not in a nasty way, just you know, just telling people what I think really. It came at quite a funny time because

I just watched social dilemma and decided to get rid of all my social media. So, literally the week before I deleted all the apps off my phone. I've still got it, I've just deleted all the apps off my phone so I can do something more productive with my time. And then obviously, yeah, what happened to the on the Friday when what happened. So it kind of, I didn't really see anything of it really other than other than hearing from from a couple of players and and and Ted to my manager. I'm sure he I'm sure that he was a little bit of damage control after that. But if if all things that came from that and I want to like I said, I want to get in the specifics,

I will say Bryson took it very well. you know, he took it maybe differently than I would have thought he would have taken it. Yeah, I mean, listen to, to be honest, I mean, I'll see him next week or two weeks time in the masters, but it was never a personal dick, you know, never a person. He's just simply, I forgot the word for it, like... It's representative of what you're saying. Yeah, I know what it is. He's a straw that broke the camel's back, isn't it? So, yeah, like I say, it was never ever personal.

I've always gone with him. He's always been good with me, so, you know, it was nothing like that. For me, it was, you know, I got asked the question about distance in the game, and his name just came up in one of the questions. And then obviously, you should get linked to that. But the point of the question was, and the point of the whole argument in the first place, really, is about the distance, and how far the balls go in, and everything else that

comes with it really. So your beef is not with Bryson. It is more directed towards the rules. So when you say when you say he's making a mockery of the game, you're not directing that comment at him. It's just more so of like, you know, because this is allowed, it's a bit of a mockery. Is that a fair way to find it?

Yeah, I guess that is fair enough. I mean, but you say it's certainly not... You take... My argument is you go to St Andrews and you put Bryson on there and he's driving eight of the Greens and all of a sudden St Andrews is the historic start of golf and it's now not... It just becomes very different.

It's a very different golf course when the balls go in that far. So yeah, it was, like I say, it was never to do with the prize. And it's just, I think, a lot of the golf courses that we play now, all of a sudden, with the way technology is at FANST and shop making in particular, it's less of a factor in my opinion. Well, I want to take some time and kind of unpack this because we talk about this stuff pretty much every week, but you know, we're not out there competing on tour. And I would imagine it's probably a challenging thing for you to talk about

specifically because I think there's a group of people out there that will take anything you say and kind of treat it as sour grapes as in, you know, like, of course, you think that you're not one of the longer guys out there. But can you, as you would define it, and then we've, like I said, we've made many efforts to kind of define it the way we see it, but set the scene for what the current situation is like between the relationship between technology, the rules, the benefits of distance, and the risk reward that comes with hitting a driver,

I know that's a lot of topics in it, but how would you describe the state of where things are in your own words, I guess? Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say players are openly talking about all the polls going too far, it's ridiculous, It goes too straight. I genuinely don't believe that's the case. If I'm going to be honest, it's the majority of golf media that comes out with it and ask the players and then you probably see bits and bobs in players press conferences when they've been asked a question about it in particular.

So for me, it's not like I get out to a golf course and I'm like, oh wow, this is way too long for me. I don't stand a chance. You know, like you say you've got to sort of pick your battles really and try and A, you pick causes that you feel like suit you game and you can do well around or B, you know, you're trying to think of a strategy to come up with, could be able to compete on that course, whether that's doing well through you put in, doing well, doing better wedge play. That's the way, so myself and my team look at it is we kind of figure it out that way, really.

Yeah, because I think there's a decent argument out there that says distance has always been an advantage of engulfed. We're just now learning, you know, the true benefit of it. Yet I think that the point that a lot of people seem to miss about it is that the current technology sets you up very well to be able to hit it very long plus very straight and that the sweet spots are so big

that, you know, it almost just not eliminates risk to take driver, but I think back to, I was following you in Abu Dhabi, it was in 2018, I correct me if I'm wrong, I think you were playing with DJ and Rory, is that sound right? No, I think I was just Rory on that Sunday. Okay, and there was a hole that Dog Legs waited the left, and I forget which one it is,

and Rory just hit driver right over the corner of it, and you had to hit like a three wood out to the part that doesn't quite dog leg and there was like a 90 yard difference between the two of you. And it seemed to me that it was just like, okay, that wasn't that risky for Rory because he hits it that far and the gap and the advantage that he earns from that is disproportionate to the challenge that he just took on. And that's where I think the debate lives. And it's a very fine line.

But it's almost like, hey, Roy, you didn't really take on risk by doing this and you gained an enormous advantage. And that's where I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I think that's kind of where you're getting at in terms of where the balance in the game has been maybe lost. No, I definitely, I would say that's probably hit the nail on the head to be honest, so I think, you know, take that whole, I definitely, I would say that's probably hit the nail on the head to be on the sole. I think, you know, take that hole, for example, if you put water up there and

the fairway now is 25 yards wide and if you have a really good t-shirt, that's where you are and it's deservedly so. That to me is long and straight, you know, that's an advantage and good, good for you. That's really good. But I think listen, I hate to, I hate to use it again. You know, it's not, it's nothing against rising, but you go, you go to the wing, wing thought, for example, and you look at the fairways there every fairway, what average in 25 yards wide, and it's thick roof everywhere. So, you know, if you hit it 200 yards and if you hit it 250 yards in the fairway and you hit 100 and you've only got 100 yards in if you bomb it up there, 300 yards in the roof. Then, you know, the law of averages just statistically speaking, it's a pretty equal ballgame from up there. If not, there might be a bit more advantage out the roof if you pull a lie and everything else that comes with it. So I think you've hit the nail

in the head. It's about the cost design and taking on the risk if you're going to be long. And I'm not saying everyone should play from the same spot. It's not like that, you know, it's not like everyone should just hit it to 50 and that's the limit. I don't agree with that either. I think it's like you say that there's got to be a bit of a reward to be able to hit it long and straight. And that kind of goes to what I said with about the skill proportion of it. My comment there in particular was, if I gave you a five degree driver, I had a two inches on top of it and made it the maximum length, 48 inches

and told you, sorry, I need you to take five on the up. It's just physics, you're gonna pick up distance. You are gonna pick up distance, whether that's 10 yards, 20 yards, whatever it is, that's just the way it is. So getting hit in it long,

in my opinion, wasn't necessarily a skill, or isn't necessarily a skill, hit it long because I can hit it longer, but hit it long and straight. Now that's a skill, like that is, That's the point of the game is to hit it straight, to hit it long and straight. And that's how you score well. You hit it long straight up there, you wet it on your whole the pot. I think that was probably where the misinterpretation of my skill definition there was taken taken in the fact that, you know, a

little bit on myself, I never said that I never said belong and straight part was a skill it was, you know, you look at the guys like DJ Rory, Brooks, those guys here along and they hit it straight as well, you know, it's not like, you know, I'm saying. Yeah, that's what I wanted to get at was the, I think these guys do hit it relatively like extremely straight for how far they hit it. Even if the numbers don't say they hit a ton of fairways, it's within the ballpark, right? And they're able to get it. Yeah. If you, if you, if you have a, I don't know the maths of the top of like specifically, but, you know, if you go for a degree of error, a 250 on a 30-yard fairway or something,

you know, annuited power for many, I don't know what the math says, five degrees right, you might be in the fairway, but 300 yards, you're in the rough aren't you, 30 yards. So that's the point, it is definitely the longer you hit it. Probably is a little bit harder to hit it straight given the course definitions that are set up now. So yeah, it seems to me that maybe it's just golf fans, maybe it's just people I listen to or maybe reading too many of my Twitter replies, but seems like everyone wants to try to address this

with course setup. Hey, we need to plant more trees, we need to grow the rough rough, even higher, blah, blah, blah, and I see all these opinions. I'm just like, man, this seems like way, like just the wrong way to get to a solution. And I don't even think that really gets us there. So in your mind, is it, is it something that can be curtailed or addressed with setup? Or does it really come back to just kind of technology? Yeah, I think it's a tough one. I think the thing is with Saturn, you know,

you can't keep building 8,000 yard golf courses. That's just global warming and space in the world and all of that stuff that comes with it. But I think it's definitely a bit of both. I think that if you know, if you, if you gave everyone a professional 90, probably isn't then even a little bit softer than that, and you gave them a smaller head, then the game is going to be more difficult. There's no doubt about that. You're going to have more spin on it. You're going to have a smaller sweet spot. So you are going to have

to, you know, try and control your ball a little bit better and not just sort of aim to hit it as far as you can, really. So I think it's definitely a bit of both. Your point there, I really buy into it in the fact that if you come to a hole, there should be a reward for hitting long and straight. There shouldn't just be a reward for for bomb in it long in my opinion. Yeah, because I think back to, you know, the open championship and how I think more and more year over year, it becomes, I already think it's, if not the best, the one of the best viewing experiences every year, but it gets, it highlights it even more over the year over year because it doesn't end up being a driving contest.

And I think that the main reasons are obviously the firm turf, you know, let's allows the not as long hitters to be able to compete at a different level. And more so because the longer guys are trying to get their ball to stop as much as they are trying to get it to go a long ways. And the bunker, the bunkering is just so different on these golf courses that it's a true penalty. And it truly, you have to avoid this at all costs. And so I guess I don't really have a question related to that other than I think, you know, the golf courses that really penalize the air,

air and T shots yet don't require that much length, end up being the best tournaments to watch. And that goes, I know you weren't in the president's cup, obviously, but that's what I go back to, I go back to Royal Melbourne. I was like, that was the perfect balance of, you know, length is an advantage. It's a skill and it'll play well in certain spots here. But for the most part, you just need to be precise. And I just don't think you can do that on, you know, golf courses in Detroit in the middle of the summer. And all a lot of the places where the PJ tour goes, the answer isn't like, hey, let's just

go play Lynx Golf every week, but that seems to be the most amazing balance of competition in my mind. No, and I would definitely agree with you there. I think the big thing is there, like you say, you hit in a bunker, you're wedging outside words backwards, you know, you're struggling to get to the green. You've got lucky with the lie or you've played a miraculous show, the bunker to get it to the green out, some of those fairway bunkers. So

I think there's a little bit of that. I don't think some places fairway bunkers are penal to an extent in the fact that, you know, you probably can't go a more aggressive target, you play in a little bit more away from the flag, but they're not penal as in, you know, you're coming outside with, or it's a guaranteed bogey. I think the thing with links golf, like you say, if you miss the fairway in a bunker, you know, it's more than likely it's going to be a bogey unless you have a great up and down, but again, you're in the fairway and those holes with with deep bunkers and it's a reward for it's a reward for straight driving. So I think it goes back to the course out again, I guess. So help me. I promise we will move on

from distance at some point, but there's so much to ask you about here. But a two-part question here. What is deep rough? Does it help or hurt you as a shorter, more accurate player? And second part of that is what is an ideal setup? Because I think people think that narrow fairways are great for a player like you, but I think we're starting to learn that after wing foot, it's like, hey, maybe that's not necessarily the case.

For me, the biggest thing I think that actually helps someone like me who's probably not as long as others is actually firm greens, firm greens with rough around the greens or just really good bunker in or rough around the greens really because the thing is with that, even if you hit it, it miles down there and you've only got a flick and the flags tucked three, four left. You know, you pull it into the roof and you short side and you've got no chance of getting it within within 10 foot. Just because you're not getting any spin, the greens are so firm and then it really does make it difficult and again it goes back to the the approach shots on firm greens. You're not playing as a, you know, you can't just fly it in there and stop with one

bounce. You've got to play more to target a little bit away from flags. And yeah, you just got to plan your way around a little bit better, I think. Yeah. Is it a coincidence that your two best finishes on the PGA tour this past year were the memorial in Olympia, the two the two firmest events. Well, I mean, yeah, that probably answers my question anyway. A quick break here to check in with our friends at Woop. If you'd listen to this podcast a couple weeks ago, we had a discussion, little discussion I was having with the soon to be wife about whether I would

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to save 15% again, woop.com, inner code, no-lang up, sleep better, recover faster, and train smarter with woop today. Let's get back to math, it's Patrick. No, but I think you're right. I think it's not that we want, like I don't think the game needs to revolve around a player like you. And I think we're we're we're under estimating your length. You're about an average length player. But I'm just saying that

your kind of player should be able to be involved more frequently than than is that is currently the situation. It's not like the game, you know, it needs to always just work that I'm not saying flip the script completely and say, just and shouldn't be rewarded. I just, I think the balance is kind of what we're trying to find here. No, I agree. I think that's the, that's the whole point. I think, I think for me, you know, this is more of opinion. I don't watch the goal, obviously. My friends do. And to the amount of times I just received messages, you know, friends in the UK, and it's just like, I had to turn it off because it's just the same, same hole, or it's just the same shot every, every hole. And I think that's, that's the big thing.

There's, there's not enough variety, you know, you compare the where the president's cup golf course was, for example, I've never been down there myself, but you compare that to a regular PGA tour of and it's just completely not even close for me. I think if you could have more variety, that would be would be better. And I'm not saying it just for me. I think just in general, I think the game, to be able to have everyone play and compete. And even the general public, if they keep making golf courses 8,000 yards long, do you really think the general public want to go and play it? They absolutely don't because they won't have a chance. We're lucky enough to be technically very good at the sport. Because of that, we can hit it, you know, my average is what, two, nine, two, whatever, because I'm, you know, technically decent at

the game. And that can, I can get myself round at that. But these people that just want to pick up the game play friendly, they probably don't play enough, don't do the right practices and stuff to be able to do that. So they're not going to want to enjoy it or play it or even watch it on TV. So. And I think you kind of, you know, you unpacked the, you're, your part of the quote that says, you know, about the skill, the skill hitting it straight. I think it made a lot more sense in that context. But I guess the only issue I really had about your statement or the one,

the part that I couldn't read between the lines was when you said, where you were saying you could add 40 yards to your swing. You know, you could, I could go see a biomechanist, I could, you know, could gain 40 yards. My challenge to that would be like, if this is the case, one, why aren't you or are you and two, you know, is, is that something? Are you kind of, I guess, trending towards saying like, all right, these guys have got something figured out with distance and I need to start figuring that out? No, I think honestly, to be fair, again, those, I think those words, the tone was probably missed there, but it was, it was more back to the skill related point I was trying to make

in the fact that I could go, I could get 40 yards, I could go longer, you know, I could put in this pursuit to get 40 yards longer, but I never said that I was going to be straighter because of it. And that was kind of my point that it's actually, in my opinion, it's, you know, obviously this is just my opinion, it's probably easier to gain length like that by doing the certain things that I mentioned point on weight by a mechanist, all that, then it is to do that and hit it straight. And I think what is really funny actually, I was speaking to Ted, we kind of, we spoke about a plenty, but I think one thing that a lot of people decided to miss in that article

was actually that I ended up saying in fair play to Bryson. So I think everyone decided to miss that point. So, you know, it wasn't what he has done. It is longer and still straight, you know, so that that is the skill of the game in my opinion. And I think that my point about adding 40 pounds and hitting it 40 years 25 minutes to unpack all of the, all of what you meant. I'm doing this to this so there's no interviews at the end now. You'll have said all you need to say. So I want to transition something to Augusta as we're rounding into the weeks leading up to it here. What can you tell us about a November masters?

Almost everyone I've talked to seems to be like, it's a mystery we won't really know until we show up. But is there anything we can kind of expect or that you are expecting with the time change? I hate to tell you, but I can't tell you anything now. It's amazing. It's amazing. Everyone's coming in blind.

Yeah, I mean, there's only a couple things from me really. I listened to a podcast with Speed a while ago. Yeah, I mean there's only a couple things from me really I I listened to a podcast with speed for a while ago He mentioned that it could go one two ways one where it's soft and wet I mean this is probably fairly obvious or the other that they've had a really dry fall and Everything's everything's firm and fast and really really fiery. So really could be one of two things. I would imagine I mean, I've been looking at the temperatures there recently, funnily enough, and there's been pretty warm and humid. So I'm going to guess that it's going to be soft and

it's going to play fairly long. So I think it'll be very interesting. Well, I think that not to tie this back around, but I've heard a lot of, I've been Google Earthing and looking at where Bryson might be hitting it and stuff and everyone's saying, well, it's gonna be cold, it's gonna be soft, it's gonna be wet, he won't have this advantage. I'm like, guys, are we being serious here?

Like, if it's the opposite, if it's cold soft and wet, he's gonna have the biggest advantage. I know the argument there is, you know, when it's not, you know, it's hard to swing really hard when it's not warm, but the longer that golf course plays, it's gonna be better for him. So in your mind, seeing what he's done so far,

and, you know, what's coming around the corner here, what's he gonna do to Augusta? How will that length play at somewhere like Augusta? Listen, I'm probably one of the only few that spoke about it, but a lot of the players I've thought to on tour, I've talked about it frequently with Chad's player, Lunds, and you just go through the holes in your head and it's like flick here, flick there. He's on the green here. He's driving it through the back of the green there. And it's just, you know, obviously it's all paper, it's all on paper, you know, you're

not winning anything on paper, but if you purely go on where he's hit it this year and how far he is hitting it, then those are the areas he's going to hit it on certain holes when you go through them. But there's no doubt about it. Augusta definitely has a little bit more of an advantage for him because probably a little bit more forgiving of most holes of the tea than a lot of golf courses and it can really be used over to his advantage with a lot of the par-fives because it helps definitely when you weigh down there on some of those to to control you

balls. So it's going to be interesting. I mean obviously there's still a lot of trees that they've put in there whether Augusta or Magic to few other trees in places that we've never seen before. You don't know until you arrive but he's going to be interesting to watch. And I think, yeah, depending on how it goes, I think golf could either change or things are carrying as normal. It's always hard to come up with a fresh angle about Augusta, but it seems like I learned something about what it takes to succeed there every time I ask a player about the course. So I do want to dive in and nerd out a bit on Augusta, But, you know, aside from the obvious, what makes it different in your mind? And I hear different

things and I'm sure it's a combination of all these things. But, you know, people say it takes such amazing precision with the irons. It takes knowing the greens for several years. It's got to be below the hole. It takes length. Buh, blah, blah. And again, like I said, I'm sure it's a combo of those things. But if in your mind, what is the defining test characteristic of that golf course or what makes it different than what you're usually seeing? It's not really massive. I don't think on some people. For me personally, I think it's quite big, but almost just the history of the event as a whole and what it holds when you're on the grounds and the feelings that you have when you play in and you know if you are in contention and I think it just provides that little bit. I don't know, I feel like it does. It's almost a little bit extra pressure than some of the other majors

just because of what it is. It's this big build up. It's always the first major of the year and I think it's always really, really exciting to sort of be there and be part of it really. But for me going into it from purely, you know, this, I guess, looking at that point of view and then shots and stuff, I think the big thing is it seems to be as approach-play. If you're on with your irons around there, then you can seriously score well. You've got to miss it in the right areas. You've got to hit it close at the same time. You've got to catch the right slopes and use them to your advantage. And I think it's definitely that.

I think if you drive it well, the fairways are pretty generous, so it doesn't really have a big factor. I think if you're on with the putt in, I don't think it matters where you put in, to be honest, but the in the Miuro, Augusto, or Harbatown, I don't think it really matters if you're on with the putt in. I think the biggest thing, like I say is is approach play. Do you a lot of everyone kind of sites, you know, I like so and so to win the masters because he moves it right to left. And it seems like the laziest kind of analysis, but it also seems to be something that people fall back on.

Is it is it is real in person of a benefit to be able to move it right to left for that golf course? I don't think so personally. I think there's two holes that you able to move it right to left for that golf course? I don't think so personally. I think there's two holes that you need to do it and that's 10 and 13 in my opinion. And 13's are arguable. You know, you can, if you get hit a soft draw around there, that'd be great. But, you know, if you can hit a cut to the corner and it doesn't matter, you still got, you can, you can get a corner and it doesn't matter, you can still get a

four-line on there or whatever you need to do to get there. But I think it's a bit of a myth in my opinion. What are some of the most uneasy shots at Augusta? Shots that for you just like don't really fit your eye or the shots that keep you up at night. I would say an obvious one is 13 second shot. This is pretty, pretty miserable. You'd love to be able to be on, on flat ground there and just hitting it. Or I would personally just flat ground and sort of hit a nice, nice cut into there really. I know everyone likes to hit the draw, but I always feel that I'll set it out right and

it's not going to come back and then you straighten the water. How do you hit a cut off of a ball above your feet? Well, hitting hope really well. You've got to use the slope, you've actually got to work it, you've got to work it on the slope to get a little bit technical. You got to actually move the club along the slope rather than trying to drag it down, you know, cutting across it, then you back up on it. Because I remember hearing Lynn Matisse way back in the day on the golfers' journal podcast, talk about how he had, like, found random hills in Jacksonville to practice that shot because there's just no way for cameras to pick up how severe that slope is, is that the

case? Yeah, I would agree with that. It's very severe. Definitely, I would agree. No, I'm not going to state the obvious in say 12, but that isn't that's that's a very funky shot. But the two other interesting ones for me would be any flag on 11, you know, you're always guarding against left, just because I always feel that the ball never really travels its full distance down there. And then also, being to any of the right pins,

I mean, that is a very, very tough shot in my opinion, because you don't hit it on top. There's a small window, you've got it at a really good shot, so it's on top. And if you were to down left, down to the bottom of the hill, the two puts miserable. You've got about five, six foot of break up the hill and then it goes up. And then once you get past the hold by about three foot, it goes down away and off the green of the side. So it's a miserable put to leave itself really. So I would say I would say

16 to right flags in particular, not a nice one. It does the wind really swirl as much on 12 is, you know, as the legend says that it does. I've only been there a couple of times and I've thrown some grass up in the air when I'm down there. And the first time I went, it really was swirling. And I kind of couldn't believe it because I wanted to think it was a myth. But what's your experience like in trying to like actually judge that win? Because it put we saw it play a huge, huge factor in the last in the last masters.

Yeah, I've never really, I've never really had anything stand out there. To be honest, so like, I don't, don't really, I think you've just got to be for a point every day. Wherever the pin is, you've got to play over the middle of the bunker and just hit it on that, make sure you've got the right club there and just hope that you've got a right. Because I wouldn't say I've personally had anything. Now me saying that, I'll probably have something this year typical. But you know, you see it every year guys that right flags in particular, they have a go at it and when gets hold of it and it never gets anywhere near or they find it a little bit and it never gets anywhere near. So I think there was a big

point made about Tiger last year when he played that whole modernari look like, you know, I don't know where Frankie was hitting it, but obviously it looked like it came down on the pin and finished short rolled into the water if I remember. And Tiger was just over the middle of the bunker. And I think that was, I think that was the big point. It was like on 12th of August and then and now you just take your power and you get out, you're not trying to pick one up there, you, you, you, you patient, and you, you move on. And I think that was the big thing is that, you know, you've got to pick a really good target there, which tends to be over the middle of the bunker. Well, that's, I have, obviously, I have tremendous, tremendous respect for all everything that

you guys do. And I, I can't stand the person that sits on the couch and screams, like, oh, you idiot, I could have done that. But 12 had a gust of, we've seen him with speed. We've seen it with Moanari. We saw it with Capca and I think even Fina, I think went in the water too. Last year, it is the most, to a viewer on TV, you can sit there and be like,

dude, just hit it over the middle of the bunker. When you hit it, at the pin and it goes in the water, it is the one time of the year that I want to just scream. You idiot, how could you make that mistake? But the reason that it keeps happening makes me think that there is truly just something extra challenging about that shot that even if everyone knows what the right shot is, but it's still hard to actually do it when it comes to the moment. Can you give me any reason as to why that is? comes with the the territory of the 12th hole, you know, you're stood there, you know, what's been done before, you know, what's happening, you know, you see the big leaderboard there and down on the left, you know where you stand if you're up there. And I think

these factors that when you stood over the shot is probably running through everyone's minds and you don't quite catch it, you miss it a little bit, a dimple left and spins up a little bit more, catches a bit of wind wind and before you know it you you've got you hand down at your knee dropping and Tuping on for three so I really think it's sort of a Bit of the occasion and a bit of the weather as well. I think this definitely there probably is something in the wind for sure and You know it probably happened so so much it can't just be random you know. What's the coolest or the most exciting pairing you've had at Augusta or something that

kind of resonated with you and experienced playing with somebody there that was especially special I guess. Yeah I can't really remember how the result was, but I played with spieth actually, and this was after he'd won it, and I was... I'm going to be honest, I was like, I don't know, 45th in the world, probably high, maybe a little higher, whatever I was, and I was just shocked because I was drawing with Jordan's spieth. I was really shocked because, you know, for me, he was like, I think it was the, wasn't the year after he won, it was maybe the year after that, but he played so well and, you know,

he was effectively golden child of Augusto for those three years, wasn't he, where he just was almost unbeatable around the place. And, oh, yeah, I was shocked to sort of play with him. I've covered him, for exactly how the day went now, but, yeah, it was pretty cool to play with someone like that, particularly a car room for exactly out the day when now, but yeah, it was pretty cool to play with someone like that, particularly with the atmosphere that came with it because obviously everyone was you know, was pulling firm so

much. So it was pretty cool. Is there anything you can pick up from playing with someone like that as far as you know how they play the course or anything that you know you've would have learned from many veteran players that you play

to practice around with or I'm just looking for like the little small nuances. You know I'm sure there's so many you know you would have learned from many veteran players that you played a practice around with or I'm just looking for like the little small nuances. You know I'm sure that you're so many you know people have so much experience of that course and little little things to share to say when this pin is here miss here blah blah blah is there any cool stories you have in that regard. Yeah but when I was in amateur and played in 2014 actually I was there with a friend he was was sort of cadding for me. And Justin Rose was on property. And in the pro shop, they were like, oh, Justin Rose is here.

When are you going to go play? And I told them this. And he said, oh, Justin's going to play around then. Maybe you should hang around and see if you can join. So I joined him and met him for the first time and stuff. And he was actually the first hole, really. He was saying, listen, I'll give you one piece of ice here. So I joined him and met him for the first time and stuff. And it was actually the first hole really. He was saying, listen, I'll give you one piece of advice here. We don't put aim to finish it 20 yards on in the center

of the green. When you get up there and you realize, and I realize that I know this now I've been quite a few times. So I see it, but if your ball was in 20 yards on in the center of that green every single day, you know, you've got no more than a 25 foot to any flag, 24 or even to any flag. And it doesn't matter where it is, back left, back right, front left. And it's the perfect place to be. And it's just something so simple like that, but it's perfect for when

when you play in, you know, tournament rounds and it's just really simple, you know, you don't have to break it down. You don't have to, I need to be a little bit left of this flag. All of that just goes out the window and you're just focusing on 20 yards on in the center of the green and that's where you leave it. and you've got a great chance of birdie on the to every flag really. That's great. See, that's like, that might sound like a boring little detail or something to you, but like now I know to look for that and viewers know to look for on the first hall how many

guys are just hitting right center of the green and that kind of context. I don't know how many people do that. I don't know how many of the players do I don't know how many other players do it. Obviously, I know Justin Rose does, and I tried to do also, but it's one of those funky greens that you actually, you see it from a distance and you think, wow, this green is huge. And then you get up there, you drop you ball in the middle of it, and it's actually where they can put the pins.

The green is actually quite small. And then you all of a sudden you're like, oh, actually, if I leave it here, then there's going to be no issues. I invite you and all the listeners of this show to feel free to roll your eyes at any point. But I've been to enough golf tournaments and walked enough golf courses where I see the shots, I see the courses and I see it. And I'm like, you know what?

Like I could, on a good day, I can manage my way around this place. I don't know what I'd shoot whatever, but I can see this, I can picture this. But walking Augusta, I never look at any of those shots and I'm like, I got this one, like I could totally hit this shot. I don't know how to describe it, but it is so visually intimidating. And I just wondered if that translates at all to your guys level.

I know it's extremely different, but I just wondered if you see any of what I'm talking about there. No, definitely, definitely. I think for me, I've been lucky enough, I've been back plenty of times now. I've done, you know, Augusta is my best yardage book that I've ever done. It gets better every single year, I've got notes about anything and everything on there. And I think that's why to me it's probably been made easier. But definitely when you first play and you know the first tournament there, there's just so much to take in. And I think that's where a lot of people There's just so much to take in and I think that's where a lot of people necessarily go wrong but they don't have the time to learn it all in my opinion. I don't know this for a fact is I could just be making this up but I feel like a

lot of people's first masters tend not to be the best by any stretch. I don't know that could be completely rubbish, what I say. But I always feel like there's just, or I feel like there's so much to learn about the place and the greens and where to it. It went not to it. That it's quite difficult to play first time. That's definitely not rubbish.

There's a great article in datagolf.com about, it says just titled, how important is experience to success at Augustaa and it shows like a very serious bell curve of like around years, eight and nine slash 10 of playing the course. Are you at your, are your best at Strokes game per round? So is away. So what said it again? Sorry.

I'm two years away. There you go. There you go. Well, you said some interesting there. That's it. You said it's your best yardage book. What's in there? What kind of notes do players keep in a yardage book?

And why is it your best? And do you really need it written down to kind of remember some of the things that go into the different shots? You're lucky, actually. It's right next to me here because I know. Oh, yes. You're going to have to send me some pictures of this, please.

Yeah. I don't know. Pick a hole. And I'll Try and find something. Let's go with three Okay, three what I got rid of three Okay, three. Okay, here is one look at the flag on seven Hmm, so from from the tea on three you can see where the flag is obviously so you, it's just something small, but it just gives you,

you know, it might give you a little bit of something when you get there on seven, now actually is closer to the front than I thought or whatever. Another one I've got is played right half of the green to the second shot, just because I think that's where the actual front is. They have two dots here. They've've got the front front which is actually the right side of the green and they've got a front left dot and that's actually six yards further on so you know you see a flag that's on the left and you might think oh it's okay I can go at this but the other thing is the depth of that is only 12 yards. There's 12 yards deep, and if it's getting firm and you've got a pitching wedge,

you struggle. So there's a tight gap to fit it in. So, yeah, hence the right half also slopes right to left as well. So, yeah, that's for that whole. That's the reason I picked that one is I feel like that's the whole that changes the most day to day in terms of where the pin is on how you would want to play it. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, particularly if you long any of the

right flags, you just want to follow me up green side, if you can get a green side, it's lovely. What about a whole like, let's say 15. My not too much. I can tell you where the line is, the line for dead sensor is this three trees behind the green. And it's the middle one. On the middle one. I have the biggest smile on my face right now. I love this. I love this stuff. I'm such a nerd. And I'll give you one more actually. So when I'm in between going for it, the bunker obviously flag dependent, the right flags you're dead, but particularly

the left flags, I've got written here, can you hit it in the right bunker without forcing it? So that means like, am I on my limit without, you know, or do I have to play a massive hook round the tree to get in the wrong right bunker or a slide, so whatever. Basically, if I'm like in between, can I just bunter into the right bunker and, you know, be safe? If you know what I mean, rather than trying to force something to carry it over the water effectively. Hmm. Got to leave. So is it something that like you go back and you read it, is it just to, you know, re-emphasize the point or is it something that, you know, I have probably inherently remembered this in

my head or how often do I guess see something you have written in there and be like, oh, glad I wrote that down. That's interesting. Oh, every year, honestly, yeah, yeah, this place really is it's very, very different, very, very different. And it plays different every year. I mean, for me, there's, there's all sorts of stuff in there. The one thing that I like that I've done is, is just I've drawn rough, roughly drawn all the greens and just on above, above, above the actual green page and just wrote where

the best misses are to each flag. If I hit it left, what flag can I get to there? If I hit it right, what flag can I get to there and just sort of given them a bit of a mark on how easy it is to chip to those flags effectively. Anything on the greens do you write down like, hey, front, right of seven green breaks more than you think, breaks less than you'd think, it's faster there than you'd think, do you do it all the way down to that level? No, not really. I don't really like that just because it can

vary. If I'm having a day with the porter that I'm hitting it firm, and then I read that, I'm probably going to be like, oh, should I do things on speed or can I keep it the same? And I think some players maybe like that, but I think the greed speeds vary. You know, you're your own touch varies from day to day. So I never really liked doing that really. Hmm. I'm going to wrap this podcast sooner than I was planning to because I want you to send me these pictures immediately.

But I'm not ready to let you go just yet. So what was something like, I think it's kind of under under reported, maybe not in your life. I'm sure you get asked about it plenty, but at least for, you know, a lot of American golf fans are kind of a forgotten part of this year is for somebody like yourself and Englishmen trying to balance out playing between two tours during a pandemic. How did you spend, you know, the three months that, you know, golf was off? How often have you gone back?

What's it? I know you've only gone back to play once in the Scottish and the BMW PGA, but what's the travel been like between continents? How did you spend your time and what was kind of that like for somebody, you know, for England? For me, it was the three months was being miserable. We were in full lockdown in the UK, very strict, no goal. And you made it back to the UK before, before lockdown?

Yeah. So I left just after the players. So I, my family were overheard left just after the players. So my family were over here to watch me the players, my brothers in college at Wake Forest. So after the players we drove back down from Jacksonville to the place that I run here in West Palm Beach and then basically we stayed for a couple days, read more about the coronavirus and then we were reading it's like well the US are going to show all the borders UK is going to go into lockdown, blah blah blah so we were like let's just get on a flight, got straight on

a flight a couple days later and then went home and then we were just yeah I was just there for three months it was yeah, it was brutal, hitting balls into a net and that's it really. And then golf opened up again and just in time for the PGA Tour to start really. And yeah, that came over from two weeks before Colonial basically. That's when I first came back over. And I go on back and forth between the continents. Did you have to do, I don't know how this has changed over time, but do you have to quarantine for two weeks, going each direction, or are there

kind of workarounds for professionals, or how's that work? I'm lucky. We've been given waivers by the government. So waiver coming over here and a waiver going back to the UK as long as I take a test or I have taken a test every time I move around basically and once it's negative I can basically just confirm that you can leave. But I have to admit I've got to give so much credit to both the tours. They've been unbelievable with the whole process and the way they've done it. Golf is definitely the hardest sport to get back going purely from a travel point of view.

You know, you never play in the same golf course. You never in the same location. So both tours have done really have often and unbelievable job to get us back playing. A couple other questions here. I'm going to let you go. But you had a crazy good putting year in 2020. What do you attribute that to? You were second and strobe scheme putting on the PGA tour, which is up from a hundred and tenth of the year before. I don't know. I just ruined it. Now you're going to think about it now. And now you're going to go to the other side. Dolly, I absolutely knew that.

Don't worry about that. No, I don't know. I've not really done anything different. I think for me, probably the year before, I was getting a little bit bogged down in my reading. I did a little bit of aim point. I did a little bit. I just did, probably just didn't flow as much. That's probably about it, but listen,

I think the year before that I was really good putting you as well, Stroke's gained. So I think that's the thing with putting, I think you've got a staple of guys that tend to be very consistent year and year out, and then you've got streaky guys that can be up there and move down. So for me, I think that's the biggest thing. I think just a little bit more relaxed, I guess, this year and not trying to force it is much, probably a little less, a little more patience. I don't know what exactly my question is related to this, but it seemed like this year, it seemed like it happened about eight times, which I'm sure it was really only three times, but it was like in tough conditions,

you were out early on a weekend, and it felt like everyone else was blowing up, but it felt like cameras picked you up and followed you in and you played just amazing golf and crazy hard conditions. You were like king of the early weekend coverage. I can think of Bay Hill Memorial, and was it Olympia too?

That happened. What do you? Yeah, I just I just love it when it's hard. I really do. I love it when it's tough. And I think it just requires a lot more determination and a lot more grinding. It's not, it's not about hitting the ball long and you know, you've got it straight, you've got a grind, you've got to put well, chip well and I think to me, you get off the golf course and it's so much more satisfying, I think when it's playing tough and you come in with a one under, you know, I shot, I shot seven under at Sherwood on the Friday. You walk off and I'm like, yeah, cool, cool. And I moved up like, however many spots, I'm like, I'm

thinking about it now. I shot seven under, I shot 65. I was like, that's one of my lowest rounds of the year. I should be, I should be absolutely buzzing. But but you know, it was just kind of like, oh no, that's what you I should have done almost. That's what every the scoring was so low and that's what everyone was doing. So I was like But yeah, just just being able to get round in a level par or one under a move or put a ton of spots It's just a really nice feeling and I think a lot of that is to do with The conditions the way the course feeling. And I think a lot of that is to do with the conditions, the way the course itself is, but I think also just like purely for a mindset point of view,

it's like you're so in the moment for every single individual shot of that round. And I think when you're in, I mean, everyone talks about it, when you're in that mindset that you just, in that particular moment each time, then you're always going to have more success. But I really think that, yeah, I really think that that was a big thing to do with it,

really. It's just purely the mindset. It is a lot different. It's just about grinding out each shot. You touched on one of the things that I would have to think is one of the hardest things about being a professional golfer when you, you know, you shoot a crazy low number and it doesn't even like gain you anything. You're just like, yeah, you're, you're just as good as the other guys. It's like, what can I do? Like, what do I have to do to be? It's, it's, it's, you know, I look at a lot of the mini tour guys, the scores you have to shoot in those tournaments

and how difficult it is just to shoot those scores and then you're not even better than a lot of the guys, that's got to just be mind-numbingly frustrating. Yeah, it's disappointing, yeah. I think it happens all the time, it probably comes to a point, you know, at some point, in a tournament week where you feel like you've really played well. And you might be 15 for something. And you're like, do I, do I, do you question yourself, do I have more in the tank than that?

But then two weeks later and you lie in second going into the weekend. And you're like, oh, I didn't even play that well and that's where I am. I think I really do think it just sort of goes up and down with, um, with sort of each week really. Mm-hmm. Last one. What was it like having bones on the back? Yeah, it was good. Yeah, it was great experience actually. Yeah, it was really, really good. It was interesting having someone who's worth the same guy for so long had so many different experiences with him.

And I'm probably come to myself who's a very, very different player and probably does things very differently as well. And I think that was quite, I think, bones enjoyed that as well, particularly just because it was something very much different for him. But we had a great two weeks and, yeah, I know he enjoyed it and I feel like he's getting to get back out. Yeah, he's, he's a, he's a, he's a caddy.

He's a caddy through and through. Exactly. Yeah. So, all right, man, we're gonna let you go. I think you successfully made this without any, any controversial statements that anyone could misinterpret it in any way. Surely someone will find one. We know. You're off social media. So you won't even have to see it. There you go. Exactly. Someone will tell me about it. Well, Fitz, thanks so much for the time, man.

Best of luck and a gust of coming up. Can't wait to watch and hope to run into you. Sometimes, human things are a little bit more back to normal. Thanks, Ellen. See you, man. See you. See you. Good night, club.

Be the right club today. Yes. Be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different.