No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 381: Match 3.0 Recap & David McLay Kidd

Episode Date: November 30, 2020

DJ and Soly chat about Match 3.0, Phil, Steph's handicap, and what to expect with the future of that franchise. Also, an extensive interview with David McLay Kidd (33:30) talking in detail about Bandon, Tetherow, his evolution as an architect, Mammoth Dunes, and a lot more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different! Ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the No-Lang-Up Podcast, Sully here across the table, Mr. DJ Pie. Hello, how are you? Happy Thanksgiving.

I'm wonderful, happy Thanksgiving to you and to all the listeners out there. We are going to chat for a little bit here on... The American listeners. Some golf, yeah that's true. Not everyone. Not everybody's celebrating Thanksgiving, but we can, I guess we American list. Some golf, yeah, that's true. Not everybody. Not everybody celebrating Thanksgiving, but I guess we could wish them happy Thanksgiving. Yeah, exactly, okay. We're gonna chat a little bit on the back half of this pod,

very lengthy conversation with David McClay Kid, not American. Well, he's celebrated Thanksgiving, trust me. We chatted, we recorded this on Wednesday, very apt conversation with what we have going on with Taurus sauce. Hopefully you guys are catching that on our YouTube channel. We are leaving the band of Dune's Resort.

I have band and crossings coming up and then we have played Tethero and then we go up to Sylvie's Valley Ranch to wrap up the season. We just talked with David about a lot of band and a lot of Tethero, a lot of really fun stuff. Some golf stuff happened in the past three, four days or so. So DJ Pi, a little emergency meeting here to get together to talk match. An emergency conversation. Talk strategic alliances. This is a strategic alliance.

Well, you said anyone could come to the table. It's all like, let's form a strategic alliance and bang out this pod. I want the strategic alliance thing to just become a meme immediately. It sounded a bit like Chipel's show. A bit like, 40 nations. 40 nations. Like, who rolls? Who fucks it? At CaliGolf.com slash the match,

you can learn a lot about CaliGolf and Stefan Curry's partnership. CaliGolf said in PlayStation. About CaliGolf, it's Stefan Curry's partnership with Howard University Men's and Women's Golf Program. That was highlighted on the telecast on Friday During that segment when I was watching it with my wife. She's the only thing she said about the whole the whole time Yeah, thanks the only thing she said about the whole broadcast was like wow, that's really cool. It was awesome

They did a little minute segment. Yeah, the vignettes were really cool But I heard a lot of action. Yeah, oh, that really resonated with a very casual golf fan You may have seen the if you close up the Stefan Curry's custom-true with golf balls. On Coway's Instagram and Twitter, you have a chance to win one of three of those golf balls signed by Stefan himself. Take a look at those on Coway Golf Instagram and Twitter. They feature the logos for Stefan and Iisha Curry's Eat, Learn, Play Foundation. And on Coway Golf.com slash the match is an opportunity to bid in an auction

for custom Stefan Curry inspired wedges with the auction benefiting a foundation and then late breaking news, Cowlway staff for Christian Bzaidenhoot. Bzaidenhout? I think that's right. Okay, I had it and then the suit that said I had no confidence. You got a win on home soil, taking on the Alfred Dunhill championship in South Africa with a bag of xforged irons, Mac daddy wedges, Mavric Pro hybrid and an Odyssey putter, pretty impressive stuff, impressive couple, a few days stretch there for our friends at Calaway Golf. I do think it's Christy Hound. Okay, got it.

So I've got Sub's Over 2. Oh, for two. Thank you very much. They cancel each other out though. Well, I should have them in the box. Happy Thanksgiving, you're Christmas. I should have the manipulators. I should have the manipulators.

I should have the pronunciations out there. No, of course I'm teasing. Of course I'm the money. Happy Thanksgiving to Chris. I sure don't. The manipulators. I should have their pronunciations out there. No, of course I'm teasing. Of course I'm just kidding. Let's talk match 3.0. This one kind of a little quiet buzz going into it. Very different than both versions 1 and 2. It's just open. Couldn't be more broad.

What did you think? What's your reaction? Well, let me start with the buzz and let me just say, you know, not only does Tiger Woods move the needle. Tiger Woods is the needle, which is a phrase I made up many years ago. No, just kidding. I think that's probably the part of the buzz, right? Like to capitalize is.

He is the needle. No, I think that's probably when you, you know, I even suffered a little bit from that until really like seeing that Stephen Curry was on the podcast. I was like, oh yeah, that match is going on. That's right, okay. So I was in that boat.

I have no judgment for anybody who wasn't super geeked for this one, but the more I thought about it, the more I was kind of like, I remember distinctly sitting on the couch, you know, tuning into TNT, getting ready to watch, and was kind of going through it in my head, and I'm like, all right, how do I really feel about what I'm about to watch here?

And I was like, man, you know what? Stefan Curry's, by all accounts awesome. He's great to watch. Charles Barkley is one of the most delightful people on TV would watch him pretty much do anything. Peyton Manning, similar, similar. Some of his SNL sketches still among my favorites ever. And Phil is endlessly fascinating, I guess we'll say, to put it mildly.

So without Tiger, I felt like they actually did a pretty good job piecing something together. And I enjoyed it. I don't know how you felt. I wasn't, you know, it was never going to be number two, the one with Tom Brady and Tiger. But I felt like in the circumstances and these COVID times, and with all the restrictions and just the changes they made, I thought that did a good job.

I agree with pretty much all of that. There's a lot of individual stuff within it to react to. One, it has branded the match, yet like there's no stakes in really involved, like no one really cares who wins. I think it, I don't know. It started as a very serious, the match,

like for 10 million bucks, or nine million, I guess. This is what we're playing for, and that felt like the stakes, and now it's kind of turned into a Skins game type entertainment product, which I am 100% more important. Yeah, definitely. I still am a little weird about the match brand. Well, I think, and I'll, you know,

give us a little bit of credit here that I feel like we've even been saying this for two years, even when they did the Tiger and Phil one. When you say the match, there's only one thing that hardcore golf fans really think about, and that's the, you know, inventory, Cypress Point, the book, all of that stuff. Very much A match.

This was A match, and they're all A match. And yeah, I would agree. I think the branding going forward needs a little work, maybe. But I went right there with you and then I was kind of lulled into it, going into it. And then as soon as I turned it on and as soon as I heard players talking while playing golf, my eyes just came right to the screen.

I'm in. I'm in on this. I'm going to watch this. It's entertaining. Phil just, all right. So I think we said in the previous two versions of these, like getting Phil to do one of these without Tiger, where he can kind of push people around a little bit,

might be entertaining. Tiger might have been the governor for Phil, because he did not stop talking for five straight hours. I think Phil's also become deeply self-aware of the stick, which is tough. The stick used to have more mystique to it, and you'd only catch little snippets of, like, oh, you know, it's actually not that hard to shot.

Yeah. And that was great, because, you know, you didn't overdose on it. Now, it's like, ah, okay, I don't know if I need it for five hours. Like, that might be a little much. Like, I get, a lot of it was really entertaining, was awesome, but it also kind of,

a lot of the reaction I read was kind of like, hey, Peyton and Curry really didn't bring much to the table. My argument to that would be, like, Phil didn't really let anyone else come to the table. He kind of almost even muted Sir, Phil didn't really let anyone else come to the table. He kind of almost even muted Sir Charles for a while there, which is very difficult to do.

I think it's also when you're playing kind of shitty golf, it's hard to, you know, really be yucking it up. Yeah, and there's a lot to react to in that terms, you know, a lot of reaction of, well, now we see the gap between a plus one, a tour player, blah, blah, blah, and I agree with a good, there is that gap is enormous. But also like people were way, way, understandably pretty hard on Curry.

He definitely did not have his best day. But like, I'm gonna get fired up at the people that just watch a few holes of someone and say he's not this handicap. And like, blows my mind about golf is that almost everyone is so self-deprecating about their own game. Like, it's more funny to be like, I'm a shitty golfer in golf. Oh yeah.

Then it is to be like, I'm great. But then as soon as someone else's handicap is on display at any point, everyone gets, I would play Steph Curry for my life. He is not a plus one. I don't give a shit. I could whoop his ass. I've never seen a plus one play that bad in my life. And I just am like dumbfounded by these people that don't understand how freaking hard golf is and how hard it would be to play. Same tease as Phil Michelson. I was going to say

there's three things that really stick out to me. And if you're listening to this, I would implore you to look inward here on these three questions. One, when was the last time you played the same tease as Phil Mikkelson? Two, when was the last time you put it everything out? Like truly put it everything out.

And three, when was the last time you played in front of millions and millions of people? Because those three things, I know we don't play in front of that many people, but the first couple times we play on camera, dude, it adds a whole other variable. And you can see it in all of our videos when we play with somebody for the first time

who's playing in front of a camera. It's hard to do, shout out to Danny Woodhead. That people were all over him. He's got his handicap and I'm like, dude, I, he qualified for the four ball. Yeah. He's a good player, I promise. It's just, it's a different, it's a different animal.

In a way, Curry playing in a, what was the web.com tour, now the corn fairy tour, playing in one of those events, shooting 73 by the way. He shot 74, 74, 71, 80, 70, or 71, sorry, sorry. And we'll get to that in a second. In a way, that is easier. I'm gonna use, I'm using air quotes as'll get to that in a second. In a way that is easier. I'm gonna use, I'm using air quotes as easier.

It's very different challenge. Like of course, playing turn of golf is extremely, extremely challenging. However, it made for TV product. You're wearing a microphone. You are mic'd up. You have a person in your ear. You are there to entertain people at home.

You are waiting for the cameras to get into place. You are taking an underrated part of this. It really is. You gotta wait and no, don't hit your shot yet. Don't hit your shot. Just stand around. Just wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, commercial break, go ahead. In normal professional golf, the cameras are working around you and filming you. You wait on the cameras in a made-for-TV event like that. Like, it is so different.

The fact that we didn't talk about Penal Desert Golf is a nightmare. The worst kind of golf. For a plus one that is not hitting the ball very good right now. And it's just like, dude, you could, I don't know. I heard some of the dumbest stuff ever. Like do people understand that?

All right. Well, I guess I thought that we were gonna have a much more built-in credibility thing with the fact that he shots He started his professional golf career shooting 74 74 71 in in corn fair events Like I was a doubter of stuff going into those and when that happened I completely flipped to the other side totally and I will ride or die for that Yes, he shot 86 in that last round. Guess what happens to that 86 when you go in there in your handicap? It gets thrown out. Let DJ explain this to you.

How to manipulate the system. Like whatever this is. That's not my man, Charles, who looks like he's gonna do it some manipulation of his own. Whatever this day, whatever he would have shot on this day in this round of golf, would have gotten thrown out if it wasn't all shot or whatever.

Like that's how a handicap works. A handicap is not a measure of your average score. It's your potential. And do I think Steph has plus one skill potential? Like he proved that. We're throwing that, people are throwing that out, five holes into it. And I know it's just sport, I guess,

that they're kind of there for us to make fun of their game and to mess around with it. But that really got me riled up of just like, holy, wait a second, everyone watching this are talking about this nose golf, right? Like, you know it to a certain point of, you know, when somebody is truly faking a handicap, I get some people are saying like, it's around the green technique,

it doesn't look like a plus player, but I'm like, dude, I've seen some plus ones with some really weird around the green techniques. Like definitely. That's the reason why they're not plus six is like, they figured out a way to get it around with the way that they do it, and I don't know. I'm fired up on this issue if you can't tell. A couple of other things I you know big takeaways or whatever. One, I thought you know you mentioned

a little bit kind of even in the the ad read, but the mission was great. I thought it was cool how they integrated a bunch of the the HBCU stuff. Before we get into the mission though also I thought we're done not done talking about stuff's handicap, but all turn it shot. It's freaking hard. I know it's modified, but that's really, really hard. And it turns out, so if you had a bad one off the tee, you're playing your partner's ball,

you got to step right up after just hitting a bad one. And it's a weird, weird flow of competition. Anyways, continue. It's weird to, no real quick. It's weird to see you so passionately defend someone being called a fake plus one handicap. That's interesting. Related to this issue. It's interesting that this is so close to your heart.

Well, some people are like, do you, you should, if you, if you're, if you're plus one, you're, you're shooting under par and half of your rounds. I was like, dude, I'm literally plus point nine right now. I have shot under par twice in my last 20 rounds. I have 79s, 78s, 77s in there, like on repeat. Yeah, but if you shoot a couple of low ones, like your handicap is gonna be good. And that's so, Aika.

Yeah. One, I thought the mission was great. Two, and maybe this is tied to... I actually thought they could have steered into the mission even more. Yeah. Did. I mean, they worked it in, but I thought they were gonna kind of, it's hard to work a storyline in to it,

but I think at times almost felt like it was on the back burner for the entertainment factor, which I think is fair, but I don't know if you watched any of the pre-share, or no, they did a ton of it in there. It was basically mostly that, I think, which was cool. I'm painting it a good job with his hats, and working that stuff in, but I thought that was cool. And I don't wanna speak out of both sides of my mouth

because maybe this is tied to the fundraising and maybe the longer you're on TV, the more money you can raise, that kind of stuff. But I don't think they need to be 18 holes. I mean, I think nine holes would be, and I'm gonna be totally candid. I checked out after nine holes and bailed. So I assume Phil and Charles won,

but yeah, I kind of missed the back nine in their defense. But I wouldn't say I was missing it. They didn't make it 18 holes because Chuck is still eviscerated. So I had so many legitimate laugh out loud moments like more because Chuck is truly one of the most gifted people. Oh yeah. Speaking, he never has to think about what he is going to say. Not every line is gold, but like he's ready to go, it's just banter back and forth.

And he's like, hey, get Craig Barry on the phone. Get the law and order rebrucks. Ready. Like, I was howling at that. It was so well typed. And then when the TNT NBA crew came on and Shaq is just like, looking all, like, of course, having the awkward angle in his face, like, Chuck, you can't read words. Are you gonna read greens? Like, that was perfect. I need those guys in person at the next one. like looking all, like, of course, having the awkward angle in his face, like, Chuck, you can't read words.

Are you gonna read greens? Like, that was perfect. I need those guys in person at the next one, there to heckle Chuck. That was like the best part. And that's where I thought Brian Anderson does a great job, but I also don't know that it needs to, you know, I don't know that you really need that,

that much of like a traffic cop. Like, I almost think, you know, I've said this a bunch about PJTWR live, and stuff like that just kind of let it go off the rails and almost feel a little bit more like a podcast at times, I think would be fun. So I think you could almost, I don't know if it would make sense to almost swap out

the talent throughout the thing, because it's a long time to watch four people play golf. I feel like over, if you're arguing to do 18 holes, I almost think you need to do like they do on the telecast or like they do on the live streams or something, just kind of like rotating different talent to make it feel a little more dynamic. I thought they did a great job.

I was nervous with the volume of announcers that they had. They did a great job just letting the guys talk. Gary McCord and the first T had me nervous. He was up there, doing his little roast, doing his whole bit, and he disappeared for several holes at a time, which I think was the right play. Yeah, I don't mind Gary McCord.

I do think that if he was, I agree, they couldn't work him in with everybody else. He almost needs to be the master of ceremonies type guy. If you're gonna have him do that. Andre Guadala was very, very, very, very, for the role he was not, he was the big key. And we've always talked about this, not trying to impersonate a golf announcer.

Yeah, no, just, and say what's on your mind? It was a nice mix. Trevor M. M. M. M. was there to do like, all right, if we went a little bit of golf talk about some of these shots, here's what we're gonna talk about. His role was neutralized by Phil just explaining every single shot possible,

explaining the angle, I kind of bullshit. Like, oh yeah, down the right, I'll have a backstop behind this and blah, blah, blah. For owning the place, Phil can't read those greens at all. Or Chuck puts so much, I bought it. Chuck puts some weird cut spin on his putts or whatever, which is possible. It's very possible, but it was funny.

They would always, it would never feel like it is moving. One inch to the left, they would zoom in on the read and it would not break. Yeah, I think a lot of that's just faux confidence from Phil also. Yeah. And a lot of it, which we heard on the first hole was probably him kind of psychominepulating Chuck as well.

Where it was like, yeah, no, yeah, sorry. It was only 55, but I told you 75, because I don't think you were gonna get it over that bunker. Like you might have been doing that out of the pots too, who knows. Chuck was good. He was. Yeah, and I, looking back, I didn't really.

He was serviceable. I mean, for a 25 handicap. Yeah, he had no hitches in the swing. He had some bad shots, of course, but like he laid back and put seven irons when Phil's telling him to, you know, I didn't really do any handicap shots of course, but like he laid back and played seven irons when Phil's telling him to, you know, I didn't really do any handicap going into this, but like looking back, like modified all shot,

one where Chuck is from team up, from way up there. And they don't have to use his tee shots, was like, of course they're gonna win. Yeah, I didn't realize that going in, that there was, you got the choice off the tee. Yeah, I thought it was gonna be Chuck putting Phil in horrible spots. That would have been, didn't really,

way more interesting. Or to have taken a lot longer. Yes But and my alternate shop should go faster in theory, but that course is a disaster I think that course speaks to how important it is for a good golf course to you know contribute to good golf Like these dudes having no idea where the balls landing the cameraman couldn't keep up with where they were landing You missed the fairway. You're in the junk, like you're losing your ball, that's not fun. Like that place was insane. Yeah. What did you think of the course? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't, it didn't provide a lot of, you didn't buy it.

You didn't, you're not going to buy it. The course was so average, I didn't buy it. Yeah, that's what I would say. I mean, some of the most, it did look like a golden tee game where they were put on those tee boxes. And yeah, just the weird, the weird tee's on like the tops of rocks that were, you know, basically like five by five, but perfect grass, those were kind of string. It was just looked like a very strange place. Yeah, I was, yeah, not in on how it produced, you know, what kind of golf that produced. I don't think.

But it was interesting. There was an interesting note. You can tell that Curry is still raw, of course, which I think is fair to be expecting these currently playing in the NBA and somewhat playing competitive golf on the side. But like the little segment where he strives what he thought was a great drive and it goes in the water. And then he goes up and plays Peyton's ball and he hits it into the wrong, he flushes one,

hits a long iron, over the green into a bunker, and Phil just like teardrops one to the very front of the green. It was an easy up and down for Charles Barclay. And they were in a bad spot in the spot. It was funny he said to it. But you could hear it. And this is the value of like getting players mic'd up is you hear Curry go through it as he gets up

There realizing like, oh man, that's course knowledge right there I would have never missed it there had I known how bad it was I'm paraphrasing But like and then Phil leaves it right in front of the green and like that watching him kind of go through that and talk about it Out loud was very much totally pretty cool I know it's also you know again Highlighting a difference between a plus one and a professional, like, right there. And Phil, I mean, I know I was kind of shading on it earlier, but I am so in on all the Phil explanations,

either way. I love, I'm running it. You're in that than the other, like, not talking, of course. Yeah, of course. We can still make fun of him for how much. Like, is it a little grating and a little over the top, of course, but also I was kind of glued to the TV

whenever he was doing that stuff, especially the one, what was it, he was hitting the big sand wedge, like 125 or whatever he's talking about, how he's changing the cuts fan and yada, yada, yada, where he's gonna land it, what it's gonna do on the green. That's the kind of stuff where even if he's making it up, and even if that's not, you know, what happens at all in the least,

it's still fun to have context and see if it happens. You know, when it hits the ground. And he hit that ball perfectly, pin high, which was insane. No, it was great. It was very much just super. I was rolling my eyes at all of that explanation. That was the one he doubted up the most.

I'm just gonna say a bunch of words and just below their freaking minds. He made this clear in the last one too. He is the partner that says partner way too much. Totally. Nobody likes that guy. Baking that a great tweet of like, you know, everyone he's ever played a pro-M with,

probably is either improved by four shots or quit the game forever. That was very insightful. Porter had a great tweet that just said whatever, we kind of already knew this, but we know for sure Phil's gonna be an absolutely maniacal writer of Captain. But no, he is absolutely essential for these things.

I think another pro to balance things out would be better. I mean, JT has, I mean, I don't know why he hasn't been involved in one of these things yet. He would be perfect for it. Curry, really, it's cool to watch. I don't think he added a ton dynamic to it. If he's not going to play good golf, which you don't know whether or not he didn't add a lot of entertainment, a lot of funniness to it. I don't think that was his purpose there, of course, promoting the champions for change and the fundraising that they're doing for HBCUs.

That's his end to it. For that reason, I definitely understand the tie-in. But I don't know. What do you think of how would you match these things up in the future? Yeah, I feel like people like Steph almost get caught in this kind of uncanny valley where they're both expected to be really entertaining and really good at golf and expected to carry like a tour level performance, which is so much to ask. So much.

So you're almost kind of, I don't want to say setting him up for failure, because I don't think it was a failure. I thought it was great, but like you said, you're just, you're kind of almost putting all your eggs in one basket, assuming that he has to play well for it to be really compelling. Whereas Payton's kind of like freed up, right? And Charles is totally freed up. And so, yeah, I would say easy fix hindsight, you know, it'd be great to have a pro on each side to at least keep it, make sure there's a ball in play, make fix hindsight, you know, it'd be great to have a pro on each side to at least keep it.

Make sure there's a ball in play. Make sure that, you know, it stays competitive and somebody can, can, can rattle off some birdies at some point. Mm-hmm. Production wise, there's not a whole lot, I would change. I know it's, it's difficult to have, you know, from, from booth to player conversations while they're driving carts and there's wind and there's connectivity issues of the radio Freak RF whatever it is and all that stuff. I don't pretend to know how all that works

But I got that kind of live production has to be a complete nightmare to do work like Getting them even a couple times they and they did a good job of it Like if two put if the two teams are both having conversations at the same time like you got it Whoever listen to that has to decide on the side. Like, who are you muting? And you might miss some, like Phil is clearly entertaining at one point.

And he had to be like, all right, I got a new Phil for this one. Sorry. The best was when you can hear Phil on the other mics. Yeah. So yeah, production wise, it's a lot. And I promise they're probably doing the best they can. And I don't know. It was great.

It's perfect for the Friday after Thanksgiving. I really couldn't care about the golf, but they are steering into, it was very much for the casual sports fan tuning into it. And for that, like go nuts, go absolutely nuts. I think the choice that comes up is almost like what people have said about SML for a long time where it's like,

you know, if you didn't do it live, like you could post produce it and you could make it so much better and it'd be the sketches could be so much more, you know, they could be more well-written and they could be more highly produced and blah, blah, blah. And I think some of that is actually true as counterintuitive as that is to everything that we love about live golf. I think if you almost like post-produce this and and ran it two days, three days, four days, whatever, after the fact, a week after the fact, I think you would capture so much better audio, you'd get all the conversations better. But you'd also lose like, you know, the moment of Tom Brady splitting his pants or him

whaling out from the fairway. And so I think some of those kind of less than ideal production stuff, you just got to, you know, chalk up to, it's really, really hard to put those together. I think the gambling houses might have something to say. Well, in that way, that was going to be the other big thing. It was not being live. Yeah, or it being live. I think that being very important, going forward.

You want to talk some PGA tour, European tour, announcing their strategic alliance. Yeah, where to start. This was announced on Black Friday, you know, curious, I guess, I would say, to say the least, timing for that announcement. Maybe the news dump of all news dumps is this capital S, capital A strategic alliance on the day after Thanksgiving. But very scant on details. Basically, you know, we're going to help each other with, you other with scheduling and sponsorships and stuff like that.

And also, a couple of big things, I guess, the tour is acquiring a part of your piece and tour media productions. What do you see? How is this not detailed enough for you? This saying that the two major tours are going to explore all facets of collaboration working together on strategic commercial opportunities, including collaborating on global media rights in certain territories. What's vague about that too? Yeah, you're right. I take that back. It's pretty cut and dry as far as where this is going.

But no, I think the big takeaways as far as the only concrete few things that we know is, like I was saying, the tour acquired a little slice of the, what is it, European tour, media productions, and something like that. They're kind of in-house production network. And then the other aspect is J. Monahan getting a seat on the European tour board of directors. So I think at first blush, it was kind of like, whoa, this smells like it must be PGL related. And then Aime Lynch shortly confirmed that with his piece for golf week, which basically spelled out, you know, and no uncertain terms that it sounded like the rain group was had made a pretty compelling pitch to the European tour who has been widely

reported in some financial duress this past year. I think that's kind of a no-brainer that both tours have not had great financial years trying to front both a massive safety program and also losing a bunch of events and all of those things. And so I think the writing on the wall or the reading between the lines was that the rain group, the private equity group that was hoping to launch the PGL

was going to come to them with a big, pretty good looking deal to kind of a lifeboat out of what they were going through. And it sounds like this was the PGA tours counter to that to make sure that that didn't happen. Does it? Yeah. A lot to take in here. I think I think I speak for both of us when we say we don't want to be too reactionary to this because we don't know what this is going to look like. Yeah, but very much in step with obviously there was this going on. The reason for this going on is quite clear. And despite Keith Pelley being quite adamant that they're not under financial duress and they're not in a poor financial position,

I think we can assume that that is a driving factor in this. The European tour had a move to make. Yeah, I think they probably weren't playing for a million euros per se by choice, right? I don't think that was something they were intentionally doing. So yeah, I don't think they were in great shape. So, the question I would ask is, I think a lot of people are, nah, a couple of people are falling this close, they've said, all right, now the PGLs dead.

Like, is it in your mind? The only thing, Jeff Shackford wrote a long piece kind of pointing some, you know, what's missing from this announcement. And I think he quoted Andy Johnson in there too, who spelled it out pretty well, which is, you know, the tour has basically doubled down on the same product twice here.

You know what I mean? Like, if this, you know, predicts a merger down the road or if this predicts some sort of, you know, coming together with the PJ tour and the European tour in a more serious way, which it, you know, you would think it would, there's nothing really that's changing about ProGolf. It's just kind of doubling down on the same thing, right? And what the PGL offers is something radically different, a different type of entertainment product, a different structure, a different,

a bunch of different stuff. And so I think that's kind of what we were saying about the PGL to start with is, even if this first iteration doesn't work, or yada, yada, yada, you know, it kind of goes up and smoke, I would think once Tiger is out of the picture and things become even a little bit more stale on, you know, the pro golf landscape, I would think this idea, even if it's not the PGL specifically and it's not this investment group specifically, I would still think it kind of fends this off for now maybe,

but down the road, I'm not sure. I don't think it's a death blow. From what I've not read in this is anything that would have changed the incentive of the players to jump ship to the PGL. This is a move made to merge the two tours essentially in a way, which we don't know how that's going to play out, but the the temptation, the reasons for the temptation, the reasons why top players would potentially leave this tour, the PGA

tour for the PGL, doesn't seem to be eliminated here unless this means a huge influx of capital and huge prize changes and changes to the structure of how the tours pay out money. Which maybe it will, if you know, maybe you can combine the FedEx Cup and the Rolex series and all these things and you can kind of make this slowly move towards this world tour or this world series, you know, whatever and really make it a lot more top heavy. Maybe that addresses some of the financial,-unquote concerns of the top players that kind of open the door for the PGL to even start. But yeah, I'm kind of with you in that it doesn't, you know, it probably makes it a lot easier

to set up a schedule, but I don't know that it totally addresses a lot of the other stuff. No, I mean, I think the top reasons why somebody would leave their current tour structure for the PGL would be one guaranteed money to a transformed schedule, meaning, you know, a true offseason, you know, the exact weeks you're going to play. There's not setting of schedules. There's blah, blah, blah, blah, you can still play all the majors. You know, you play 54 whole offense that are made for TV products. You have a, it just entirely new atmosphere

and you're making a lot more money and potential ownership stakes in teams. None of that is addressed by a strategic alliance. I don't think unless, unless there's more details than we know yet or whatnot, but I don't know if that covers off on everything. Now, whatever is going on with the rain group in the European tour or there were all the rain group and the European tour,

or there were all kinds of talks about the European tour becoming swallowed up within the PGL or a feeder league for all this and all these rumors and all that stuff, that you blocked that with this alliance. So I don't know what that does for the chances of the PGL happening, but I was gonna say, it can't help.

No, right. That's what I was gonna say is they basically blocked the infrastructure, right? And you don't have, you can't inherit this series of tournaments and this series of, you know, all types of things that you would need to, it would make it harder to get it off the ground, I would think.

And as far as you're, you're comment about the off season, this was from Amon's golf week story. Specifically, so the partnership agreement between the tours remained vague, but multiple sources told golf week, it's likely to eventually involve some marrying of schedules most likely in the period of September to November. So yeah, it kind of seems like it's drawing out this quote unquote, you know, the series

is the the FedEx Cup series, the Rolex series. It seems like it's just going to make those more non competitive, which as a golf fan, maybe it's possibly good. I don't really know yet. I'm not sure we have enough info. The one thing I was wondering, this reminds me of the Star Alliance, like within airlines, like I'm wondering kind of if your status on one tour,

if your points can be cashed in for my way. Interestation on another one. I don't know how race to Dubai and FedEx cup points really translate. But if you've heard a bunch of FedEx points, can you use that towards a Rolex? Or I don't know. It's hard to tell. I think these are all questions that are going to remain to be answered.

Yeah. I mean, just all this conglomeration here, it's not good for the consumer. We know that. So before we roll in our interview here with David McClade Kid, I got to say, a lot of people sent in a lot of screenshots through DMs, Instagram, all that on Elijah Craig. If you follow me on Instagram, you would have seen,

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So we talked a lot in the first go around about how you got the job at bandin, working with Mike, you know, beating out a lot of other architects, but we didn't do a lot of specifics. And I kind of want to get into the weeds a bit. This past week was our airing of our band-in-doons episode. I've made it no secret that it's my favorite course at band-in. And again, not just because you're sitting here with me, I've had that opinion for quite some time. But I do kind of want to get into weeds

going a bit almost whole by whole. And we know that the 12th hole was the first hole built at band-in, but I'm curious as to what was next from that and did you know the 12th was the 12th hole at the time? And I want to lead that into kind of getting an understanding of how bandin was routed. Yeah, I knew it was the 12th hole. The original layout Mike loved the back night. So 10 through 18 had been set from the previous year and Mike was all about it.

He had no problems with that. It was the front nine that he just couldn't get past and the reason was the land partially had at that point was pretty tight. So I think you probably know the 11th hour story where Mike managed to acquire the land to the north and the front nine on on my course bandin changed pretty dramatically the the first second third and fourth stayed the way they were as did ninth and everything else changed so five through eight all those holes changed but the back nine stayed where it was so when we came to build the course for technical reasons, we needed to start at the lowest corner of the site because that's where all the drainage was running to. So we started in the lowest point, which was really 12, 15 and 16, and then we worked away from that.

So the very last hole we built was probably like, if I remember rightly, three, you know, two or three because those holes were as high as possible and as far away from the ocean. So they were the the very driest corner as far from the low point as possible. So that's often how you build a any golf course. If you want to get super nerdy, there are two things that usually drive the construction drainage. So you have to start where the pipe is exiting and work to where the pipe is entering. So from the lowest point to the highest point, and then the other drivers usually irrigation. If you're working somewhere where irrigation is an absolute necessity, the desert, for instance, you're going to start building from your irrigation

pump and you're going to work away from it to the farthest point away because obviously the pipe is coming out of the irrigation pump and it's moving away from it and you follow that when you're building the golf course. So there's a nerdy insight into how you build golf course. So on that 12 hole specifically, you know, you touched on some of the reasons why it was the first hole, but you know, it's your testing hole. You got to impress Mike with this or, you know, you've told the story of, you know, you were afraid of, or he made it clear that he was going to fire you if he didn't design a great hole.

What, is there a template for that hole? I freaking love it. And I want to talk about the bunker and the slopes and all of the things that go into how you designed holes along that coast specifically. But did you have anything specific in mind when you came up with that one. I don't remember having anything specific in my mind. I mean, it is funny to remember that might basically told me if you make cars and birdies, you can have the job, but you make a single boogie, and I'll fire you. I mean, imagine if you had to go play around a golf like that, knowing that your job was on the line. The first time you make boogie.

You've got to be pretty ball-sheet to start the roundoff right away, but 12, I thought, was pretty easy. I didn't think that I had to do a lot. I knew instinctively that I was competing with an unbelievable piece of landscape. The green site was completely there. It was caught between those two lumps, the one that's close to the green on the right, and then the one that's actually between 12 and 15 on the left. So those two hummocks were already there. They had, you know, gorse and wind bushes growing on them

and beach grass and they were all gnarly from the wind. So those framing points were already there. And the high bench that the tees all sit on, that was already there. So I figured that the worst thing I could do was to overthink it. All I really needed to do was lay the green in there in an interesting fashion for a golf hole that probably for most people was a short iron.

It was maybe it's seven iron, maybe it's nine iron, but it's not four iron. So the balls coming in relatively high, the wind is going to be a huge factor. It's probably coming in off your right shoulder because you're playing in the summertime. And so I laid the green in from front right corner to back left corner and wrapped that bunker, wrapped it around that little teeny pop bunker. I'd say the hole is probably harder in the wintertime when the wind comes out the south and it is in the summertime when it's coming out the north because you can play to the front right corner of the green and if the wind keeps pushing the ball you end up farther down the green. The really tough

part is the back of that green actually falls away from you just a little bit. So if you're playing for a pin over the bunker or left of the bunker, it's incredibly hard to stop that ball. You really need to club down and hit really hard, or if you're really, really good, it's a sucker. And just play for the middle right of that green and then pop back to it. Man, you just covered off on like six different questions ahead or six different things I want to, I want to talk to you about because, you know, that shot is, you, you touched on it there and it just exemplifies what makes golf really fun in my mind, especially if that pin is back left, even mid-handy cap golfers when they grab a short iron, they aim it directly at the flag.

And a professional golfer would not play the shot that way. So I think that a lot of amateurs kind of struggle with the concept of when they have a short iron in hand, that they need to aim it at a safe spot of the green. And everything is dictated around this teeny tiny pot bunker that I guarantee if you tried to hit an in it, you couldn't. Yet it's the only thing you're trying to avoid. And I don't know, that kind of shot, I think, it just kind of exemplifies the challenge

that comes with bandin. Exactly, we're talking about for a right hand or the win coming off your right getting to those left pins is just it's so exhilarating. I don't have any other way to phrase it. I mean, just to be a little controversial Chris, I would say I see a lot of professional golfers that don't get it too. They're so used to playing relatively two-dimensional golf

courses that have bent grass greens that are overwatered and soft. They get away with hitting shots directly at the spot they wanted to end up. And so they get to a place like Bandit or any of the British Isles courses. And it frustrates them. They think that it's unfair that they throw the ball directly at the pin and it doesn't stop. I've had more than one professional golfer tell me about the 12th hole at band and then how it's not a good hole that they threw a perfect, you know, eight iron at that pin and they landed it, you know, six feet short and they rolled off the back. No amount of me trying to explain, well, that's not the way to play the whole, works. They want to have a golf whole design that allows them

to hit a very predictable shot in a very predictable way and have a very predictable result. And that is not linked golf. It's not predictable. It's hardly fair. And you know, it's you against a mother nature and she can play all sorts of tricks on you, just like we're talking about on 12, that the middle left pins are probably not good pins to go for most of the time. There are occasions, if that wind's coming out of the south, I may be more inclined to

go for a pin that's middle left because there's a chance that wind will hold that ball up and it will actually stop. It depends if I'm playing match play and where I am in the round. I mean, there's all sorts of factors to take into account, but just going for it is usually not the plate on almost any hole on any course abandoned. And I don't know, I guess, what is the relationship between the 12th hole and maybe even more specifically the second shot into four because they're right next to each other, the greens, they're very similar shots.

And again, the approach into four and the T-shot on 12 are maybe my two favorite shots at the course. So I enjoy kind of getting two cracks at it, but were you at all concerned with the shots being too similar in any way, or did you have a vision for these two holes that we're gonna play directly at the ocean? Well, I don't see them as similar at all.

I mean, I don't know about you, but when I'm playing a shot into 12, I'm probably playing an eight or nine iron. When I'm playing a shot into 12. I'm probably playing an 8 or 9 iron. When I'm playing a shot into 4, I could be playing 5 or 6 iron. Occasionally, I might be a 4 iron. So that shot for me is completely different. The trajectory of the ball coming into 4 is a hell of a lot lower. That ball is not going to check.

It's going to run. The green is way bigger. And the idea there is that no matter where the ball is on that green, you are probably aiming short of it and right of it. And you're going to try and let that ball release and run to the pin, even if the pins at the very front of that green, I'm aiming, you know, five or six yards right of it and ten yards short of it. And hoping that that ball was not going to check, it's going to hit

the ground and release and run forward and left. And if the pins all the way at the back of that green, I might be taking one or two extra clubs in a half swing and playing for the middle of the green knowing that it's going to run to that back left corner. So I didn't for a moment think that they were going to be similar shots other than the winds coming off my right all summer long. And the ball was going to want to move left. Yeah, I guess where I was probably coming from, we were getting that helping wind off the tee on four and it was ending up with a shorter shot in. I don't remember what we hit in when we were just there, where I was kind of probably coming from, we were getting that helping wind off the T on four and it was ending up with, uh, with a shorter shot in.

I don't remember what we, what we hit in when we were just there, but I, I, I just meant more along the lines of that wind coming off the right and making sure you're doing everything to make sure that ball doesn't go too far left. Uh, I, I find that challenge to be really and that we had a back, back left pin. Very difficult. We had the USA and pins when we played and it, it took everything in my power, not to get lured in by that pin and just pretend there was one in the middle of that green, because there was no good that was going to come out of going left. And as weird as it sounded, like I feel like I hit a great shot to 50 feet. And I feel like that would put a little bit of a

smile on your face that I would think that way. There's nothing that the beauty of Link's golf is how the shorts play out. That's short you're talking about. I'm guessing you had a few desperate seconds of working out all the different scenarios that may or may not play out in your head. You then picked one. You play the shot and then the ball trajectory you see and you think, well, that looks like a pretty good trajectory. Well, I think I'm going to get to land it in the right spot. Then it lands and you think, okay, well, now I don't want it to bite. I want it to actually release. Okay, now I want it to move left. Okay, how far is it going to move left? And so all of this is playing out in front of you over 10, 20, even 30 seconds. All so much more exciting than playing a stock shot on an average Parkland golf course where you hit the shot and you think, okay, that should be close.

And it's over in the minute you see the ball leave the club face, you kind of already know that, yeah, I'm gonna have a birdie putt. Man, you just described it. It's actually my job, not your job, to actually describe these things and you just did it 10 times better than I did. But so as challenging as it was to work in this remote location, I feel like you were, you know, in talking to you, you were afforded at least some luxury that doesn't seem to exist much

in the golf world, which was time. And you seem to intimate that you had time to explore the land, to learn the winds, to learn how it would play in different months. And I'm kind of fascinated to see, understand, I guess, how that impacted the final design. And the second part being, how do you design a place to play in two very

different wind directions? I always struggled to wrap my head around that. I think the time part is another one of the simple genius parts of Mike Kaiser's modus operandi. You know, he takes time and he gives the designers he works with time to mold things over and chew the fat and figure out a thousand different scenarios and even fall in love with one idea and then let it permeate and then figure out there really is not that good an idea. I don't think I've ever had Mike kill kill an idea. He just kind of blows a little chili on it and ignores it for a while and then you think,

well, maybe it's not such a good idea after all. So I'd say Mike is a big part of that that he doesn't have that developer mindset of, okay, you know, we got to build this thing right away. I mean, we got to be selling product in six months. You know, that's not how he thinks. He's like, what does it take to learn this land really well? And for everyone to get really comfortable with everybody else in the land and the ideas we have and then execute it in a timely manner, but not in any kind of great rush. You know, when I built mammoth junes for Mike and Michael and Chris, I guess, you know, we could have probably built that golf course in a single summer if we'd have been going at it really, really hard.

But the Kaiser's themselves said, hey, you know, that's, that seems like a lot pressure. Let's take two summers. Well, two summers is, you know, probably three months longer than you really need. You know, you could rush it in one, but taking two is really luxurious. So that's probably down to Mike. The next question you asked, how do you build a golf course with two prevailing winds that are 180 degrees apart, I mean, complete opposite summer and winter? It is an interesting point that abandoned

jins a lot of visitors that come every single year always come the same time of year. So there are a lot of folks that have only ever played band in a southwinder because they only come in the winter or they only ever play in an orphan because they're only ever there in the summer. And if you've played it in both, band in all the other courses, but maybe bandin more than any other,

is a completely different animal in those two wins. And you're right, I did have to think long and hard about the holes that played north and south. If you take the 11th hole, for instance, the 11th hole plays slightly uphill, the T's are at the south, the green is at the north. So in the summertime, that hole you're playing dead into the wind. It's got a long narrow green and you're hitting, you could be hitting driver threeward into that green in the summertime and in

the winter from the same T, you can drive the green. I've done it more than once, all the way to the green and bounced it on the green and rolled it off the back. And so the same whole same tea driver three would to drive a bowl. That's the kind of difference that you have summer to winter. So how did I do it?

With those greens, I tried to think about the scale of the green, how big it had to be given that one, one months you might be heading wedge, the next months you might be heading three wood. And then putting any vast range of teas, that 11th hole, all with the power four on the card, the very back tea is 500 yards, so they could move that tee all the way back in the winter time and play it as a driver mid-Iron, but it would still be 500 yards long. They don't. It's one of my little frustrations is in the winter time, when the wind shifts to the south, they often move the teaser out into a combative, hence, you get to 11 and suddenly realize it's drivable. Well, it seems like they're very intentional

of not giving people 67 or 6800 yard option. I'm imagining for pace of play reasons, but I'm guessing that is maybe a tad frustrating on the architecture side. Well, the good news is when I'm there with my buddies, I can look around to make sure the rangers not looking and then walk my group to the T.O. on them to play from.

Well, would you, I mean, so I'm, I don't know what the percentage of rounds that's played in the summer is versus the winter, but it's gotta be more just with daylight and the desire for people to go. So would you say you designed it more so for a summer win with that in mind? If you had a tiebreaker, if you had to pick the perfect day

out there, you would want the win to come out of the North. You know, that's a great question. I would love to tell you that that was in my psyche every moment of every day when I was building it. But the truth is that we built the golf course from August of 97 through June of 98, if I remember correctly. So we built it through the winter months.

So even though intellectually you know that the vast majority of rounds that we played in the summer with the North Wind, every day when you get to work, the winds coming out south. Every single day, it never blew out the North. Every single day, every decision I was making out on the golf course was when the wind was coming out of the south. So if I really had to be honest, I'd say there was a lot of influence out there from a south wind, but it was blowing out the south and I kept thinking, how am I going to get that ball on the green, what kind of short am I going to have to play to get that ball on the green. Think of the number five. You know, I'm building

that golf hall and the winds at my back as I'm building it. And I'm thinking, this isn't that hard. as I'm building it. And I'm thinking, this isn't that hard. I can hit three woods up to the neck in the in the fairway. And then I can hit wage onto that green. And it's a long narrow green, not that hard. But if you've played that hole in the summertime, it's an absolute beast. It's the hardest goal for maybe on the entire resort because the wind comes out the north. maybe on the entire resort because the wind comes out in the north. So I'd say I was heavily influenced by circumstance and the circumstance was the wind blew out the south all winter. I find that interesting because I guess my not putting words in your mouth here, but the reason why I prefer banding over Pacific as I feel like it plays so much better in a north wind. I mean, we almost got blown off the golf course at Pacific, but that stretch, you know, where you're going. What is it? You know, 10 semi into the wind. Then 11 dead

into it. 12 dead into it. 13 dead into it. 14 a short three dead down that you can't really even hold the green. You know, made 17 coming back dead. And it just was very, very difficult. I thought and I felt like, you know, when the winds howling out of the North, I would much rather. Of course, five is really hard at banding and the wind six is difficult. But I find that to be one of the reasons why, I feel I just feel like it flowed better.

Seven, eight with those, go ahead. I'll tell you what I did do. I mean, I spent a lot of time working on the routing for banding and thinking about the wind. You know, that part was intellectual, right? That part I was sat at a dining table with a pencil and an eraser and I was drawing golf holes. And the first thing I drew on the plan was, you know, the north-south wind, like prevailing,

summer prevailing winter. And I said to myself, how do I keep turning these golf holes around so that I'm not asking the player to continually battle the wind? If I remember rightly, Mike, and I talked about the fact that at St Andrews, for instance, you're battling the wind for nine holes. No matter what direction the wind comes from on the old course and many other classic links courses, you're battling it out and then it's with you coming back or vice versa. And Mike felt that maybe that wasn't the best scenario and maybe we could work harder to try and keep twisting the wind around the player so that they had different options. It certainly was in my mind to do that, to try and keep the golf holes moving and not play

you know three par fours into the wind type of thing, you know, which is why you know five is a par four that six is a par three and then seven turns per pindicular to the wind in the mark. What? So does eight. Nine quarters of the wind. So does 10. You know, so I was trying my hardest to keep the wind moving around. Yeah. No, that's something I definitely kind of stuck out to me.

I'm not sure I would have noticed that on my my first go around, but you know, playing it in different conditions and different winds and stuff like that. It it was definitely of note. You mentioned kind of the 11th hour land purchase, and I didn't want to, you know, breeze by that in case some of the listeners weren't familiar with what happened.

And I'm curious if you could kind of help us visually paint what the front line looked like prior to that purchase and then what the changes were to it afterwards. Well, the back line was easy, right? I mean, I wanted to finish the course along the water's edge, you know, I must go. It's meant we played match play. I wanted the big dramatic holes 15 through 17 to decide match play. So that part was easy. Mike got it. He loved it. But the front name was kind of squeezed in to the south. You had the back nine and to the west you only had a little bit of coastline. You basically had what is today for green and halfway up the fifth fairway.

And so number five didn't play along the water. It started to cut back inland and the whole front nine only touched the water once. The fourth green and the fifth tease were on the water. Everything else was back from the water to the point that the sixth and 11th green on my original layout were a double green. Can you imagine that? So the existing 11th was actually a double green with the sixth on the front nine.

That's hard to figure out for those that know the resort well. I might just didn't like the front nine. It didn't have enough waterfront. The holes were a bit cramped. It didn't have the drama he's looking for. We went round and round for many months, maybe even a year or more. I kept saying to Mike,

the problem golf design, the problem is the availability of land. If you look at the plan I've drawn, I have golf on every single piece of the parcel you own, that from the property boundary to the north, cut creek to the south, the primary June to the east and the ocean to the west, that whole parcel was filled with golf. And so Mike kept scratching his head wondering how he could resolve this impasse where he wasn't happy with the front nine. And the neighboring landowner at Guy called Schumann abruptly went into bankruptcy and the land that is now everything except the sheep ranch became available and Mike was able to purchase it

and with that purchase I said to Mike okay you know this change is everything everything changes now given the new land I would want to start from completely scratch I mean there's no point putting the clubhouse where we're planning what we should do is move the clubhouse north to maybe where Pacific's clubhouse is and replan band and dunes from a northern clubhouse because that way you'll get maybe one more or even two more courses to get in and out of a single clubhouse spot. That seems perfectly logical to someone who's studied architecture, right, to find one clubhouse and make it service

more than one golf course, but not to Mike. He said, no, no, no, no, I like the back nine just the way you have it. I'm comfortable with where the clubhouse is. I just want you to redo the front nine. And no amount of me saying, well, that doesn't make any sense. We should go back to master planning the whole resort

in Mike's infinite wisdom. He said, no, we're just going to stay where we are and just refigure the front nine. So I went back to the fourth green. One, two, three, and four were still pretty good. And I turned five and six up the coast, cut back on seven and eight and played the original ninth. Now was it the backstory might be that by that point Mike had tagged Tom Doak to do the second course and Tom knew that the Schumann land was now available, but Mike had given

me a kind of permission to puncture into that new piece of land. So I think in Tom's read, I kind of stole that land from his possibilities. I'd have stolen more if I could have gone farther north. That land was really, really good. I mean, I'd been looking over that fence two or three years at that point. And I knew how good that land was that Tom eventually got to build Pacific on. over that. It's hard to look at the overheads now, which I'm doing and picture everything fitting into that original piece of land without some serious compromises. So I think it does. It makes sense. I'm curious as to you could talk about, I forget where I've read

this. And I remember I'm thinking of the fifth hole at Royal Port Rush as a lesson in this in terms of the value in having a hole that plays directly at the ocean, both in terms of dramatics and how much ocean front real estate a hole like that takes up, yet how much thrill people still get out of playing it. The fourth and the twelfth are both great examples of that. Was that something that you were conscious of just to make sure you had holes that played directly at the ocean and for those reasons at all? Yes, and I think, you know, that it does a few different things. I mean, from a geometry point of view, when you have a whole playing directly

at the ocean, you're only using up the width of a golf green, right? Or the width of it, you know, so you're you get a huge amount of bang for the buck because you're not using up the chunk of ocean front, like say a five or six or six in the so four and twelve get to be ocean front, but they're using very little little real estate to do it. But that's a planning thing. From an experiential thing, I think golfers, there are a few things that golfers really, really love. And I'm a golfer. I love to play golf. It's an endearing passion.

My wife and I would play golf every day if we could. You know, what is fun about golf? Well, hitting over things is fun, right? No matter what it is, whether it's a galt, your lake, or hell, even a tree, I mean, hitting a golf ball over something is a thrill. And then, it's a golf ball to something dangerous that has an infinity age seems like fun too. But when there's no support behind it, when there's just this fall off into oblivion, Infinity Ages are a great look and a fun thing to hit a golf ball at. And so that's where those playing golf holes directly at the ocean. You get this Infinity

Age, which is no golfer doesn't think that's fun. Yeah, no, I think the exact same way. That's why maybe why I love love for so much. But one thing that you've also been afforded over the years with how old it's kind of crazy to think of how old bandin is now. It's been around for almost quarter of a century, but it has had the opportunity to age well. And you've been able to make some modifications over time.

You don't seem too proud to make some modifications over time. You don't seem too proud to make changes to your masterpiece. And what are some of those changes? I remember hearing some stories about the old fifth hole had a lot of gorse around it, and it was very, very difficult. But what are some of the ways that, you know, bandin has grown up over time in your view?

You know, I want to touch on that first point about being too proud. I don't get that. I don't understand why someone, I want to touch on that first point about being too proud. I don't get that. I don't understand why someone would not want to go back and monkey with something you love. I mean, McKenzie, monkey with Pasity Enple until he died. You know, Donna Ross, monkey with Pinehurst number two until he died.

I hope I get to monkey with band until I die. And hopefully that's a long time from now. So I don't think there's any shame in monkeying with something that is well loved. I mean, it's almost the opposite can be true that if I don't get fans to monkey with a golf course I created, maybe it's because it's not loved.

Maybe it's because it's not being played or it isn't being successful. You know, that's not a good story. So I'm happy to be monkeying with most of the courses I've done. I guess where I draw the line is, you know, what goes from monkeying to completely remodeling, you know, I've never had to go in and completely remodel something that I created. I've very rarely had to rebuild greens on go-up courses that I've built. I've very rarely had to rebuild greens on golf courses that I've built. I've made adjustments, but very rarely had to rebuild. If I think about Bandon, I don't know that we've touched a plucking surface on a single golf hole at Bandon. I have to think that one

through, but I don't think we have. All the munkying we've done have been at the edges, changing the edges and the edges have been changed. A lot of it has been the weather. We redid all the bunkers for the US amateur, mostly because after 20 plus winters, the bunkers had taken up pounding and been scoured out. Maintenance practices had changed them. A million golfers had gone through them and and chopped at them. So they were in need of a little love. The edges you talk about where we cleared out doors. I think that playability issue, it speaks very much to

what I truly believe is the essence of great design, which is a whole like five is eminently challenging. I don't think anybody would disagree with that. But when it had the chunks of gorse in the middle of the fairway and death on every side, it was eminently unplayable. It was extremely unplayable to an average golfer that can't hit two shots in a row that are good, nevermind three. So by pinning some of that stuff out, we give that average guy a chance to quickly find it and quickly put himself back in play. And maybe his body is in the same predicament and maybe he can scratch a half out the whole. And I think is the essence of golf is to ultimately find it quick again.

And maybe you're back in the game. Yeah. And one thing that I promise we will eventually move on from band and but I'm having such a great time with this is the the bunkering at bandin and it links courses around the world has has me longing to, you know, totally reimagining bunkering and golf and at the same time like pot bunkers with sod faces on inland non-heat Lynn courses just looks horribly out of place. But if I'm playing like a traditional American golf course, let's just if I'm just, you know, let's let's say like Hazel teen or something like that. There's bunkers that frame the fairways, but I'm not even thinking of them when I'm just, you know, let's say like Hazelteen or something like that, there's bunkers that frame the fairways, but I'm not even thinking of them when I'm teeing off.

If I hit one offline, my ball might end up there, it might be a good break, it might be a bad one depending on the line and what the rough is like, blah, blah, blah. But it's somewhere like band-in and it's similar to Lynx courses. It's almost never a good break to end up in a bunker unless it's saving you from going off a cliff or something like that. The bunkers are in your way of the route to the hole and they might be small, but they will also gobble up golf balls. I'm just thinking there's got to be something that can be done that's in the middle of

those two. I'm wondering if you have any ideas as to what that might be and whether you agree with that. Yeah, that's a tough one. You know, I early on when band and opened a tour pro who played it spoke to me and he said, you know, I didn't like the golf course. I said, oh, why not? He goes, well, you know, I'm playing great and I can't find myself in fairway bunkers. And I tried to explain to him, we couldn't have been playing great, and the bunkers are all positioned right next to where you wanted to be. So if you were very

slightly offline, you ended up in those bunkers. If you decided to play very defensive golf, you wouldn't have been near any bunkers at any time. And I firmly believe that is the essence of trying to match challenge and playability. For a goal for who's being aggressive, the bunkering should be positioned to defend against that aggression. It shouldn't be there to punish a defensive player. When someone's standing on the tee thinking, I just don't be confident today, or this hole just kicks me in the butt. I'm going to aim away from the bunkers into the fat part of the fairway where maybe I can make a par or maybe I can get out here with just a boogie. What is the point of putting that guy in a bunker. You know, he's already trying to avoid danger. He's already giving up

the aggressive light. So I try pretty hard to defend goal pulls from aggressive play, not defend them against defensive play. What's the point in that? So waste the money. Yeah. No, I think that I think that's an interesting conversation that goes all the way up to the top of the game and that it seems to be that Players are rewarded for being as aggressive as possible off the tee and I'm just I the answer isn't centerline bunkers everywhere But it's I think the answer is definitely wait There's something right where I want to hit this ball Which I feel a lot of the time at band and then at a goodA at a good link, golf courses. I think the center bunker thing is only true if the center of the fairway is the place to be.

I try hard to design holes where the center is often not. Almost never. I want you to be playing for edges. You know, edges are what it's all about. You know, think of all the other sports where edges are so important. You know, it's all about the edges. The NFL are throwing for the edges, you know, the tennis, you're playing for the edges. So golf should be the same.

You should be playing for edges. And the middle is the safe part that you're kind of, that's, that is the defensive play I would like to thank. If you're playing a course I designed and you're playing for the middle, you're not trying to make birdie. I won and you're playing for the middle, you're not trying to make birdie I won't need to play for the edges and in playing with you It almost seems like that you need to be the one writing the artich books for these places So you know the shots that are required for those I really actually enjoyed tethero Which we'll get to and we'll see in videos here in the coming weeks

But in part of it because you were right next to me telling me exactly what shot I needed to hit But I'm wondering as we tied back to bandit What was it like watching the best amateurs play your course at the usm? You know make some mistakes hit great shots hit bad ones. I mean that that had to be pretty Pretty thrilling to watch that unfold Well first off, you know, I've been saying my whole career that The ultimate puddles for golf course architect is USGA events, whether it's the US amateur, the US Open, the women's Open, those are the only golf events

that are truly picked because of the golf course. A tour event is little to do with the golf courses, everything to do with the location and the sponsors and the prize money and etc etc. It has very little to do with the quality of the golf course. So the fact that a course I've created a host or doesn't host a PGA Tour event, I don't feel is a you know a huge endorsement of my design chops, whereas a US amateur absolutely is. That is being selected on the basis of the challenge that golf courses offering the best amateur zone on planet earth.

So for me, it was a huge deal to have what I would consider a major tournament played on a course, an original course that I dreamt up. So that was fantastic. However, here's another controversial statement I would make. I would say when it came down to the quarter finals and there were eight players left, I'm pretty sure that if you'd have put me on the bag of any of those, finally, that guy would have won.

So I want to hear some example. What are some things you saw that guy would have won. I wanna hear some example. What are some things you saw that you would have never happened if you were on the bag? Well, I guess you wouldn't have touched the sand. Well, I wouldn't have touched the sand. That's for sure. I definitely would not have touched the sand. So I had to kept that guy in it.

I just think that they were, none of the caddies in the final eight were banding caddies. They had already been the caddies at band final eight were abandoned caddies. They had already been the caddies at band and who were on bags had already gone, including unfortunately the kids who touched the sand. So all of those final eight caddies were not overly familiar with band and they weren't familiar with the weather patterns that happened in the final two days and they certainly weren't familiar with the pin placements and the best way of attacking them. For instance, 13, the final day on 13, the pin was back right corner. All the players, all four players were banging it as hard as they could down the right hand side of the hole. From the right

hand side of that hole, no matter how hard you hit it, no matter how far down that hole you went, there is absolutely no way on God's green earth to get that boat next to the cup. There was no way. So it didn't matter if you hit three would off the tee down the right or rate to drive it down the right. The next shots were going to be through the green and well away from that pin coming back to the pin. So no one was ever going to win that hole. It was going to get halfed unless someone really screwed up. If I had been on any of the bags, I'd have given my guy three wood or even an iron and made him hit it hard down the left, not the right. And at that point, he'd have opened up that pin placement. And I'm pretty sure with the skill level these

guys have, they could have gotten a close for an eagle pup and they would have won the hole. On 15, how many players kept going for that pin when it was at the back of the green? If you step off the back of 15 greens, you know how wide it is? Six paces. Now even the best amateurs on planet earth, trying to hit a rock hard green in the wind that's only six paces wide and if you miss you are staring down the barrel a double bogey. So I would have told any player I was cadding for forget the pen just put just play for the middle of that green all you got to do is put the ball on the green and two put and the worst that can happen is you have the whole. But the chances are you'll win the whole because the other guy is going to try and go for it. And what was it like in my quarter semi finals double bogey have both of the matches or would have have both of

the matches? Yeah, exactly. If any of those players that hit the green and made par they win the whole and think of the spot you're on 15. I mean, there's only three holes left. So it really would have put you in it. It really was a match swinger right there on 15 great pen placement by the USDA to stick that pin at the back and bad course management by all the players to try and go for it. If they'd have put it to the middle of the green or front of the green, pretty sure any of them would have won the hole. I'll tell you, again, we played those pins the next day. I missed the green left and with my chip,

I had to aim 15 feet right of the hole because of exactly what you're talking about. If I had missed it left, it was going down and off the green and that the area at which I could have stopped it there didn't make any sense to try to hit. So I pitched out well right of the hole and tried to make a 15 footer. But I would just remember watching those guys butcher

that one and say, hey, I'm not going to fall into this trap right now. Yeah. So that's it. It's all about course management. I mean, if there's a course that players need to learn about course management, the courses that band in our it. And I would love to think that bandin

leads the pack in understanding course management, you know, which side of the fair way to go to how long or short to play those balls. We're under green to miss the ball into what things to, you know, when you can go for it, when you shouldn't. There's so much about bandin that's about course management before you get to the golfing skill that a player may or may not have. And that's exactly what I wanted to unpack with you. I know we've been maybe overloading our content lately with too much bandin stuff, but like I think it is relatable at so many different levels

or it can be an example of things, you know, not everywhere has coastal golf, of course, but kind of a lot of the things we've talked about today can be implemented in other locations and the coastal element to it adds a lot to it, but it doesn't mean that the principles don't apply throughout the rest of golf. But on a somewhat similar note in the course that, you know, I've been teasing we're going to talk about and it's going to be coming up in a couple of weeks as tether row, it is not a coastal golf course, but I was, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised given your affinity for it, but I was surprised at how firm that course played

when we were there. But it's been a lot of subject of some debate in the golf world. So let's start at the beginning of Tethero, how you landed that job, what the goal was, and then we can kind of get into how that course has aged and changed over time as well. Well, I come over here to Bandoorigan, which is where I live and work now and where I am right in a second. I love that it's a high desert plateau at 4,000 feet that rains only seven inches a year. It's the perfect place to grow Fescue, which is what Bandin has. And you can create firm, fast golf courses over here. And we have 300 days of sunshine. So in the summertime, you're playing golf in shorts and a t-shirt and it's beautiful weather. So I really wanted to live here,

really wanted to build a course over here. And in 2004 or five, I got approached and asked if I would do so. So Tether will became the course that I created. Most of the courses over here are parkland style. They're lush, they're green. They have very defined edges between the golf course and the desert. And so I saw an opportunity to kind of turn that on its head and create a golf course that was kind of brown and hard and fast and blurred the edges between the golf and the desert. The two kind of coexist overlapping greatly

where the two are merged together. And so it was right around, I was building the course in 06-07 Tiger Woods was at his most dominant winning. Absolutely, everything everyone said golf was too easy and we had to do everything to make golf more challenging. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to see, I think at that point I was playing off, you know, like 4.8 or something. So I was at the lowest I think I'd ever been. So I doubled down and I built a golf course that is tough and it is a very tough golf course.

It's pretty wide. The fairways are very generous. The greens are large, but it is rock hard. So no matter how good you are, the ball will not check. Even a wedge into those greens, I think you'll agree, is not going to backspin. It's going to run somewhere. So you're playing for the front of every green and hoping it bounces in the right spot in order to release. And if you throw a ball directly at Penn, you might lose the ball. Yeah, it's so yeah, I'll take us there then. Are the stories of how difficult it was slash is? Are they exaggerated to any extent or you know, I would say they probably are, you know, I think

if you're a reasonably good golfer, let's say, if you're, let's say 12 or less and you can vaguely hit the ball in a straight line, I think you'd play Tether and kind of wonder what all the fuss is about. But if you're at the average goal for that, you know, says he's 15, but actually plays more to 20 and, you know, can't really break 100, but writes 90 on the card, you know, the guy, that's most guys. Then Taylor is really difficult. Why is it difficult? Fairways aren't wide. Aren't narrow. They're super wide, but they're incredibly hard and tight. So the average goal hits that a little bit fat because he's used to playing a soft lush goal. Of course, you hit golf ball fat at Tehdro and you're gonna chunk it

right away. So there's just a level of difficulty there, this for the average goal for right away. You have to be able to strike the ball first, you have to be able to pick it and that requires a level of skill that most goalkeepers don't have. Then you add into the fact that the greens are very pitchy, I mean they are tumbling and moving and running around and they're rock hard too. So no matter what the yardage is into a pin, the first hole for instance, I'll hit three wood off the tee, and I'm say I'm 160 in.

Well, 160 is probably a seven iron. I will never hit seven iron to agree. I'm gonna hit a nine iron, because it's gonna run 20 yards after it lands, no matter what. So I'm playing for the front part of that green, Marw, where the pin is on the green. And I'm trying to play for the bounds

that's gonna happen next. And I want someone to green, if you're in the wrong spot, you can four pot pretty easily. So I think that's why for the average goal for who's trying to break 100, they come to Teythero to play it and it can either lunge pretty quick, but for a single digit golfer they can come and play

it and think, well the fairways are pretty generous and the greens are huge. I don't know what the fuss is all about. At least that's my read. Yeah, I was, I guess pleasantly surprised. Obviously I'd heard the stories of Teathero, but didn't. I didn't know why it was difficult and I was surprised I guess pleasantly surprised. Obviously I'd heard the stories of Tethero, but didn't, I didn't know why it was difficult and I was surprised to see the wide fairways because you know, looking at the overheads, it's like, oh, I could lose a ball here, I could lose a ball here, but I feel like it is very manageable

to just play long irons, even for a, you know, a mid-handi-capper. You don't have to be hitting driver everywhere because the ball is gonna roll so much for you and you're going to want to play a running shot in with your next one. What's the benefit of getting super close to the green and hitting a wedge anyway? So there it was challenging around the greens. It was challenging to judge how much balls were going to bounce and your bad shots were very punished. But I find that to be maybe I'm just sicko, but I find that to be a fun sort of punishment more than just straight loss balls on every hole.

I think the key to Tethero is you have to play very smart and probably defensive golf most of the time. So you have to stand on every tee, look to see where the pen is on the green, to give you some of which side of the fairway you might want to be on and then consider your options and very often just like you're saying, there's absolutely no advantage to being aggressive. And so do you really need to hit driver? Would you be better hitting a rescue club down the left side of the fairway and staying out of all the trouble and make sure that you're in play? And then from that position, not going for the pin,

playing a couple of clubs shorter and putting it in the front of the green and laying it roll onto the green to a position where two pot now becomes reasonably doable. And almost every hole is like that. I've played with a lot of members that tell me how hard it is and then I say, okay, you know, let's go play, you know, Wednesday afternoon and I go out with them and I take the driver out their hand and a hand them a six iron. They're like, well, what do you do that for? I'm like, well, you take your six iron, good done, you know, and they say, yeah, and I say, well, two six irons will put you on the front of this green. Why are you trying to hit dry edge?

The driver, you hit out the play and then the way edge you chunk. So let's hit your six iron twice and get you on the green. So they do it and make two puts and they think, well, that was near as hard as it's been all year. And so I continue, but unfortunately, there's 400 members. I'm not going to caddy for them all. Well, I was going to sit. I felt like we had an unfair advantage. you know, we're hitting shots into a, I

forget, maybe it was the third hole or something like that. I remember you telling me, I needed to hit my 190 club, but I needed to hit it at 170 because that's the trajectory of the shot that needed to hold that green or to land it short and run up on. And not a lot of people, yeah, not a lot of people are conditioned to play golf that way, though, you know, it's, it's, I feel like maybe you're the challenge that you've laid out is, is missed by people because they're not willing to think even remotely outside the box. And I'll throw myself in that, in that group too. I think it, everyone is used to playing golf a certain way. And maybe it's

almost that someone doesn't understand the challenge that's laid out in front of them. I'm wondering if you feel that way at all. Oh, I totally did. The last time I played Tadaro was maybe a month ago, I was playing with my business partner, Nick Sean, who's a really good golfer. And we were with another couple of guys. We got to eight, we were playing a match,

Nick and I both hit drivers up the left side of eight. It's an uphill par four, and we were both 140 out. What club did we both hit? We're both single-digit golfers, and we're trying to compete against each other. We both hit six irons from 140, and we put it to four feet, both of us. And we both laughed at each other because

We're playing against one another. We both knew the shot was this low-checking shot that we had to punch into that green uphill and into the wind and the ball needed to stay low Climb into the wind and then drop like a stone. Now from 140, a lot of players will be pulling eight irons and trying to hit this high shot that would never have gotten there. And even if it did, the win would have blown it off course. I think that that's why Link's golf is the true essence of the game is to think beyond that stock driving range shot, that driving range swing that we've been so preconditioned into playing. Here's an interesting thought for you. You've played a lot of courses in the British Isles. How many courses did you go to that had a driving range?

I've never even even abandoned. I know they have one now. I've never even thought of hitting balls there. You know, it's so little about your stock shot or finding a shot and so much about just being creative and hitting different things shots and different swings that you'd ever do that. I don't even think about warming up or tuning in my swing before I go play. That's golf, if you ask me. That's a his golf.

And I think if people would stop worrying about the perfection of this swing playing past smash factor, if they just stood up and thought, you know, I want to hit this low, you know, I'll bet you their body would know what to do. Yeah. Kip before we move on from Teathero, can you tell the story about the, I forget what year was the club champion and what he, what he used off the tee to win it. I'm not sure which year that was.

Well, his name is Boatby Grover. He's a friend of mine. He always, a bunch of coffee places here in Oregon and Washington. And he's a really good golfer. He's a, he's a really buff guy, you know, super strong. So I'm sure he could hit a driver like Bryson, but he won the first club championship and never hit more than a five iron off any tee.

And they had the place set up as tough as it could get, but he's a smart golfer and he knew that defensive play would lightly win the tournament and sure enough it did. Hmm. That, I love that story. That was, it kind of changed my way of thinking about the course and, uh, yeah, I don't know what it was. My instinct is to be aggressive, but as soon as I saw Tethero, I hit driving iron and

four irons off the tee way more often than I normally do. And I, I, that sounds like the antithesis of no laying up, but like it is way more, it's fun. It's fun to play golf that way. And there's a reason why I think Tiger Woods always is very activated when he's sitting a lot of long irons off the tee, because I think it's, those kind of shots

are just what encourages creativity, which I, I think we've covered. But we're, I'm wondering if you can, you know, we had an interesting conversation when we were out at Ben with you about the arc of your timeline of your career as an architect. Where Tethero fits in that? And what you learned along the way,

lessons you learned along the way, and I'm wondering if we could kind of reheat that conversation as best as we can and kind of paint that picture for us. Well, I guess what I've seen over the last you know, I'm 52 I started banding when I was 26 so off my life is from band until now and What I knew when I was creating band and was all incentive I was I am the son of a Scotty

And then was all instinctive. I am the son of a scotish greenkeeper. I was born and raised literally on a golf course. My father's friends were all superintendents and club pros. I got to play the best and the worst of Poland. And the golf is a every man sport. Everyone plays it. Every kid plays, every granddad is out there with his grandson or granddaughters.

I mean, it's a very people sport. It's not an elite sport at all. And so for all of these generations and all of these abilities that are playing golf in Scotland, the golf courses need to be all things to all people. They need to allow granddad with his beginner, you know, his beginner grandkids to have fun as well as the club champions throughout their trying to shoot in the low 60s. And how do those courses achieve it? They form a perfect balance between challenge

and playability. The fairways are generally wide. The bunkering is generally strategic. There usually aren't that many bunkers. The goal thing landscape at least is relatively soft, even though it might be dramatic on the edges. The greens, in many cases, are at grade. They're not pushed way up in the air. They don't look like presswik. Presswik is probably an outlier. Royal Dornaq is a bit of an outlier because the greens are up in the air. And so I knew all of this. And when I built Bandon, he just painted out what I instinctively knew without intellectually having broken it down and deconstructed it into a science or a formula in any way. So I did that. And then I immediately

got all of these opportunities to build lots of other golf courses. And all these other influences came in from outside. I suddenly, you know, golf died just in Golf Magazine and Golf Week in Lynx Magazine. All these journalists were coming to me and asking me and telling me what it is I should be doing. And the general thing I was hearing was, you know, golf has to be difficult. The defensive part, the challenge has to be high. This slope rating thing that I'd never heard of suddenly became a real thing. This slope rating number had to be up there. the the gin handy cap system, you know, everyone's posting a score.

And so I, I, I rightly or wrongly, now wrongly, it started to accommodate that. Oh, by the way, the projects I'm doing are trying to sell hundreds of millions of dollars of real estate and the real estate sales are predicated on magazine articles and buyers that don't even play golf. So the visuals now become extremely important, which I think is part of the reason why you see a lot of golf courses covered in lakes and bunkers, you know, it has more to do with selling houses than it has to do with the playing of the game. So I fall into this kind of trap and I build a few courses that win awards, they rank really highly, but I don't think they really did a good job of finding that balance between challenge and playability the way the courses of my

youth had done. And so a decade ago or more, I revisited that. I really thought long and hard about what it was I was about. Did I want to be influenced from outside or did I want to go back to those instincts I had as a young man, to go back to the roots of the game that I'd learned as a kid at my father's side. And so that's when courses like Gamble Sands and mammoth june's appeared where I went back to that a simple instinct of measuring challenge and playability and allowing them both to coexist on the same course. If I were to knock on Tethero, I would say that it's all challenge and very little playability. It's something that I see just flipping through your website and looking at pictures, of course, as you know, your more recent work, your work maybe in the mid-2000s. The thing that sticks out

to me is this severity of greens. And it looks like, I feel like, I don't mean, again, don't want to put words in your mouth, but I feel like you've come to the realization or if you've learned or decided that greens don't necessarily need to be especially dramatic to be interesting and challenging to, you know, all skill levels. Is that fair to say? I would say that's fair to say. I mean, I wonder how I will look back at this in years to come, but we hold golf courses up as icons, as the model for what we want to create today. And the icons we hold up are Cyprus Point, Oakmont, Narian. And you know, think of the greens on all those courses.

I mean, they're absolutely wild. And you build the safe, if you build a golf course for every man today that has greens like Oakmont, they're unplayable. They're just really, really hard. And I think we've all been doing it. You know, I think Tom Dox's guilty as I am in building greens that are severe. They may well be great courses for great players, but are they great courses for the average guy? The guy that's actually playing paying the bills and wants to take his extremely valuable free time

and enjoy playing them? I think not. And so I'm trying hard to resist the urge to go crazy and build courses that are somewhat simple. I don't want to say boring in any way, but they're simple. They're not as complex as Taylor was where you need a higher degree in math to figure it out. Well, it's so difficult to find, I guess, and draw the line between severe and really engaging. Like, I look at a place, I'm not sure if you've ever been to sweetens,

cove in Tennessee, but those greens are severe. But a lot of the slopes in them, if you go on the wrong side of them, it, you're toast. Like, you're just totally toast. But if you are in the right-ish spot, you can use slopes to really get to a very accessible pin if you get creative with it. And, you know, even on that course, there's some slopes that I'm like, that's just too much. And there's something I'm like, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen. And on the same nine holes, it dances between this kind of, you know, almost absurd severity and some of the most entertaining and fun golf

I've ever played. So I imagine that it's just something you have to learn over time. How to, you know, dance around that line and not and, you know, have too many holes that end up on that severe, severe skate part of the scale. I think that there's a truism in golf course architecture that you and your listeners can see how true you think this is. Restraint is a skill that our golf architects learn over time. It doesn't seem to be an asset that is taught intuitively. Every architect of note has built golf courses early in their career with severe greens. Is that a truism?

I would argue that it is. And every architect that stood the test of time has learned restraint later in their career. It's interesting. Yeah, because it's almost like, you know, you probably broke had some kind of breakthrough in part due to, you know, creativity that you had on the green. So your next time around, you're not going to want to dial that back.

You're going to want to, you know, ramp it up and, and yeah, that's, that's very interesting. I think, I think, well said. One place we haven't really talked about a couple of times that you've been on is, is Mammoth Dooms. And I haven't had a chance to get up there yet, but you did get to go second on this project instead of being first like abandoned Doons. But what kind of feedback have you gotten about your work up there? And now it's been open I think a couple of years now.

And you know that the feedback I've gotten is very similar to the feedback that I get for Gamble Sands that the average player absolutely loves it. In fact, I mean, I'm not, this isn't completely honestly. Every player that's played those courses be they exceptionally talented goalpers are complete hackers. The feedback almost to an every single person has been one of joy that they've really enjoyed playing mammoth junds and wanted to play it over and over again.

I spoke to Luke Reese the other day, who's one of the owners of just the clothing manufacturer. He's on the golf magazine panel and he was saying that mamm Mammoth Jones is one of his absolute favorites and he ranks it extremely highly in his world to top 100. He feels that it offers him the ability to be as aggressive as he wants to be, but offers him mercy when he's unable to pull themselves. And I thought that was a wonderful way of explaining it. That these courses offer mercy when you screw up. to pull the shoze off. And I thought that was a wonderful way of explaining it. That, you know,

these courses offer mercy when you screw up. That doesn't mean you're going to make birdie. It just means you don't make double boogie. Well, I want to get you out with, there was one question on bandin that I missed that I meant to ask you earlier, but I was curious as to what you would rate as a underrated whole at Bannon in your view. Gosh. You know, the one that people often ask me what my favorite is and my answer is often 14 because I was thinking you were going to say that. I had a feeling. Yeah, 14 I think is a hole where we'll look at the card and they see a relatively

short hole that he's site isn't terribly exciting, to be honest, and the fairway is pretty flat, but the positioning of the bunkering, there's the green especially, and the ridge to the right of it set up for a really interesting angle. You could play that hole so many different ways. You know, you could play that whole aggressively, still only hit along iron, or you could play aggressively with a driver. It was really interesting to me, the very final round of the US amateur, Stravache went with a driver on 14 and ended up hitting the green. And I knew he would, when I was watching it, I knew that the wind had died right down.

The fog was moving in and he pulled driver and I thought, oh, this could end up on the green. And he hit the shore and he had no idea where it was going. And yet on TV, we clearly saw the ball was on the left corner of the green. And that's the shore I would have given him as his caddy, but I would have known he could have put it on the green. You know, he didn't realize that that was even an option.

He was totally surprised. So 14 I would say is probably the current band and dunes. Yeah, I had a very strong feeling that was gonna be your answer, and I'm glad to hear that. And we'll let you out on, you know, you're a busy man these days. What do you currently have going on and what can people expect to see in the coming months and years?

Uh, we're, we're really busy. We're, uh, we're about to finish off a link course on the coast and Portugal called, come ported dunes. And it is just, uh, it really is amazing. We two see some pictures of this. Uh, we have this huge site that's right on the Atlantic coast through huge sugar sand dunes. So we're gonna finish that in the first half of next year.

We're doing a couple of three remodel projects. We're gonna open the short course. We built up at Gamble Sands next summer. We're trying to do a course over on the coast in Washington. We're working through all the permitting on that right now at Westport. So that could be fun. There's maybe even some talk of another Kaiser project that's through some dunes. So, yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff out there on horizon and stuff that we're working on right now. So golf is at least for us.

We're staying really busy. Great. That's great to hear. Can't wait to check them out. I need to get up to mammoth. Hopefully when things start getting a little bit closer back to normal or something this summer. We got to got to get organized in an event of some kind up there. But thank you, David, for all the insight. You are honestly one of my favorite people to talk golf with. And I know the listeners are gonna greatly enjoy it. And thanks for all your help during our Taurus Saw season and for episodes that have come out and ones that are to come. So I look forward to chatting with you sometime again soon. All right, I want to play Mammoth with you guys. So make sure and invite me.

We'll definitely do. Sounds good. Thank you for the time. We and invite me. Well, definitely do. Sounds good. Thank you for the time we'll chat soon. Yeah. Good advice, club. Be the right club today. Yes. Yeah. That is better than most.

How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most.