No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 386: Keith Mitchell

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

There's a reason this a longer one! Keith Mitchell takes us through his journey to the PGA Tour, Sea Island life, flying private vs. flying commercial, an interesting insight on the distance debate, Trackman, PGA Tour Latino America, how an alarm mishap almost changed his career and so much more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Sully here. This is a, this is a doozy of an episode. If I may say, went up to Keith Mitchell's house up in Sea Island today and did not expect

to go an hour and 40 minutes with him. But man, it covered a lot of topics. We go, cover flying private, how you budget that, tour life, how to get from the Latino America to web.com, some heartbreak along the way. What it takes to maintain at the top, just basically I feel like I can ask this dude to anything. We talk a little distance stuff at the end,

which I found his insight, be particularly fascinating. I think you're going gonna really enjoy this. We might take you a couple of, couple of commutes to get through it, but there's a reason why we went for so long and it was because the content I thought was very good. Of course, if you're listening to this, that means this week's episode of Taurus Sauce

has already aired. No laying up is of course brought to you by Precision Pro Golf. As you would have seen on this season of Taurus Sauce, everyone here at No Langing Up Trust, Precision Pro Golf's range finders seen on this season of Tora sauce everyone here at no laying up trust precision pro golf So range finders to help us swing with confidence and hit more greens I'm not gonna spoil anything from the episode if you haven't watched it yet, but you're gonna want to see This is semi-final matches at Sylvie's Valley Ranch myself taking on DJ pie big Randy taking on Neil on one of the widest fastest

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add our favorite rangefinder to your bag for $40 off. Swing with confidence, hit more greens with precision pro golf. Let's get to Keith Mitchell. So explain C-Ilin to me. I've been up here several times. I like it. Golf is great. A lot of tour pros is what, how many tour pros live here?

And why do tour pros want to live in C-Ilin? On the PGA tour, it's a dozen, at least. You know, it goes back and forth between 10 to 14, depending on the year, just of guys that have their card. And that doesn't count guys on the corn fairy tour or the mini tours or Latin tour, Canada. It's really amazing how many guys live in such a small town. It's not Scottsdale where it's a subsidiary Phoenix.

It's huge, right? And Jupiter's got West Palm. He got Miami, just South Florida, everything, right? And it's really cool because the center of all of our friends down here are usually on our same schedule. And that's what makes C.I.L.N. awesome is that when it's a random Tuesday in June, you know, well, you know, it's not like all my buddies are at work and they come home it from nine to five

and I'm by myself with a golf course. And you don't find that really in Scott's so jupiter, but any other town, you know, even Jacksonville, but any other town where there's not that many golfers, it's really hard as a professional to find the balance of like work because you'd be by yourself, practicing by yourself, this and that. Then everybody has completely different schedules at night.

Like you might be working out or going better because you got to early work out in the next morning and vice versa. So that's like the very general sense of why Seattle and school. What I liked about it and why I came here was because a lot of guys that I played with from University of Georgia were already here. And so it was a very easy transition. And who are those guys? So Harris English, Hudson Swofford, Brian Harmon was down here.

Before that Chris Kirk lived here, Russell Henley lived here, both of those guys have moved on. TJ Mitchell was on the team with me, who's on the Cornfairy Tour Joey Garber. Was on the team with me. He's gone back and forth between the PGA Tour and the Cornfairy Tour. So, Mookie DeMoss actually, who's on the Latin American Tour, was my roommate in Georgia. And all of us, it was this very easy transition to move down here. Because of how amazing the practices are, there is a couple management groups, maybe three management groups that have offices down here for all these guys. And the weather might not be perfect in the winter,

but it's very good year round. Every place, you know, Scottsdale's perfect in the winter, but it's super hot in the summer. Jupiter's perfect in the winter, but it's thunderstorms a lot in the summer. So like, I feel like in Sea Island, we have a very good kind of like jack of all traits in terms of the weather. Traveling in and out.

It's easy. It's the biggest joke I've ever heard of. Really? So, are you out of the local airport right here, right, as you come in in Sea Island, or how often, or how's it work? Like, that's the part that blows my mind mind because the people that I know in my tax bracket are flying in out of jacks a lot, which is not that close to here.

Well, my point to that is, is if you're moving down here to play professional golf, then that is your goal is to be able to fly in and out of the local airport here. That's three minutes from my front door. And not all professional golfers living here are flying in and out of that area. Correct. Okay.

So when I played on the Latin tour living here, which is the hardest tour in the world to travel on, okay? You drive 15 to 20 minutes to Brunswick Airport. You get there 30 minutes before your flight because there's only one gate and there's only one flight and it's going to Atlanta. It's a 40 minute flight to Atlanta. So by the time I leave my house and I am sitting in the Atlanta airport in the terminal in an hour and 45 minutes and then I can get anywhere in the world.

I was talking to Jason Bone who lives in like Marrietta or Alpharet or something in Atlanta and he talks about how easy it is to travel out of there. We leave our houses at the exact same time to get on the same flight from Atlanta to wherever we're going. So it's not perfect, but if there's a direct flight from anywhere, from Jacksonville, we go straight to Jacksonville. It's 50 minutes from my house and I'm there.

Guys in Nakati, wherever they live over there, it's 30 minutes to the airport. Oh, I'm not. Yeah, so I'm almost the same for them. So it's, and if you're on the mini tours, and you know, you're playing the Florida swing or the Florida mini tours or the G Pro up in North Carolina, it's a four and a half hour drive in North Carolina

and it's a four hour drive to West Palm Beach. You're selling me, you're selling me. Because I mean, a lot of people live in Orlando for the airport, like being one flight away. I would assume it's why a lot of pros live there. I hope that's not, there are only reason of living in a place. Not only, but some of the really global players. Hendrick Stenson, Ian Polter, those dudes that, you know,

it's a lot of international players set up in Orlando. Right. If you're playing the European tour and the PGA tour, yeah, see how it would be very difficult to travel back to. Exactly. Yeah. I completely understand that. But I'm not that's not my argument. So how often are you or what's the situation where you're getting to fly out of this the St. Simon's airport? So it definitely helped after I won. I would say that I was I was so far from that. But now with net jets and so many guys being part of net jets on the tour. And I know wheels up has something but net jets has been amazing. And most everybody on

St. Simon's or C. Island has net jets. So imagine four of us coming back from the John deer where there's no flights back into Brunswick or you might have to land in Jacksonville at midnight and then drive an hour. Not to sound whatever, but we're flying first class mostly on tour because it's business and it helps our bodies when you got more room and you're not cramped. Oh, say no more. Yeah, I mean, it makes a difference. Yeah, so I'm getting at it.

I'm getting at the cost benefit of all of this and it's there. It can be there. It can be there. I don't want to say it's there because that sounds dumb. But when you have four guys that you could leave, you know, mohling, Iowa, land at three minutes from your house in an hour and a half, and you split that flight four ways. What's the cost? It's it's so like 1.5 hours, let's go, everybody's paying a fourth of an hour, you know, a third of an hour, whatever you want to be, half an hour. And when you divvy up a half hour,

it might be double the price per person of a first class ticket. Wow, that's an incredible deal. Right, so, but the problem is, you have to have four guys going the same place at the same time. Now, that's more difficult. Some guys might have kids. Some guys might have their wife.

You know, you can't do that's perfect scenario, right? If there's only two guys and, you know, we got a bunch of bags at week, you know, it won't fit all the playing, then you're, no, then you're spending four times of commercial, you know, then it starts getting dicey. If you're flying by yourself and your own plane, then it doesn't matter. Like, you have enough then it starts getting dicey. If you're flying by yourself and your own plane, then it doesn't matter.

Like you have enough money that doesn't matter. We're not there yet. Right, but it becomes a certain, you know, Billy Horses will explain this one time of like the value of, and I thought of it differently forever after that was like, like how could you pay 15,000, whatever? It could turn out to be $15,000 for a flight. When he, and the way he explained it was like,

well, if that saved me one shot in the next week, the convenience of getting to bed on time, starting my week, right, getting to my personal training appointment in the morning bubble. And if it saved me one shot by the end of the week, and that's the difference between ninth and eighth, that might be more than $15,000. Or whatever that number is, it's like, it makes sense.

It doesn't make sense to do every week, I don't think, but there are certain scenarios, and there's value in, and you can crack me if I'm wrong here. I wouldn't say you yet have all the money in the world that you don't think about money, right? But the guys that have all the money in the world value their time. Right.

There's no reason not to, if you're tiger or fill or rory or dust and stuff. Exactly. It would be the same value in terms of my bank house. There's this me flying commercial. Like, it's the same percentage of your work. So why not, right? But at the same time for me, if I'm going between, you know, San Diego and Phoenix and there's

a Southwest flight or a Delta flight every hour on the hour and it's direct from the two, I'm saving 30 minutes on each side from checking in and baggage claim, and I'm paying, you know, that flight, who knows, maybe 10 times more. You know, it's not worth it, you know, but hopefully you get to the point where you can do that, but even then, I'm afraid, like, someone told me,

I'm not gonna someone told me, I'm not going to say their name, but it is never get comfortable doing something that you can't do forever. I like that. That makes sense. So if I start flying, if I have a great year, like 2019 had a great year and I could have flown to every tournament and it wouldn't have made a difference, right? Well, if I have a bad year in 2021 and 2022, and I'm flying the same amount, and then all of a sudden, I'm like, hold on, I gotta back this down, like, I haven't been playing it,

whatever, you never wanna be able to do something that you can't do forever, because if you can't use to it, it doesn't become a luxury anymore, right? It becomes habitual, and if flying private is a habit, you damn sure better be able to do it every day. Play better. That's an example of play better. It is play better. But even then, like, it's just, that's what a lot of other guys tell

me, like, the guy's especially that lived around the Atlanta area. They're like, yeah, I mean, looking back and you spend a couple of million dollars in flying private and you like, you don't have anything to show for it. I mean, you do, but you don't, right? And he's like, I mean, I could have gotten a first class to get out of Atlanta and,'re like, you don't have anything to show for it. I mean, you do, but you don't, right? And he's like, I mean, I could have gotten a first class to get on the land on, you know, saved this and that here and there, direct flight. It's something that's, it's almost impossible to put a finger on.

You can justify both ways. It's just, it's a feel thing, I guess. Right. And I think, I think it's probably not a lot of listeners to this show, but a lot of golf fans assume everyone's flying private everywhere, which is most definitely not the case. I remember we had a player stay at our house like eight years ago at the memorial, and I picked them up from the airport, and he was hand-lugging his, you know, suitcase for three weeks and

his golf travel bag with a million pairs of shoes, racking up the overj... I just didn't picture that, And then the reality kind of said, and of like, you guys are on your own for so much stuff. Like, you don't have someone there assisting you with all the little inconveniences of life. And there's a lot of stress that comes with travel, especially when you do it every single week. So I think understanding travel and golf

is an interesting thing. It's not like the tour doesn't charter, you know, a normal circumstances isn't chartering planes between stops. You don't have a team that you're traveling with in terms of like basketball or baseball or something like that. And it's something that like it wears on you over the course of entire season.

When you're traveling for 30 weeks a year, it definitely does. Now, I think it's fun to think that everybody has a G5, like Tiger, like, I mean, yeah, when I was in high school college, whatever, I was like man How cool would it be to fly on playing on tour and fly around at a Gulf Stream? I mean that'd be sweet, right? But at the same time

It's it's it's definitely there people definitely do do it, but it's not it's you're like you said it's not everywhere and When it's convenient and when you know, you've been successful enough that successful enough that you don't feel like you're spending an arm and a leg to do it, then we do it. Back to the original question of, do I fly another? I would say a fourth of the time. It's usually flying home when it saves me a legitimately 24 hours, where I could not fly back to Monday. I can be home at 6 on Sunday and then go out to wherever it to eat or come home.

Then yeah, I'll do it. But when we're flying from home to somewhere, when you have no time constraints and this and that, it's very rare. That makes a lot of sense. And yeah, that helps me understand Seattle and a lot, honestly. It took 12 minutes to get it all out. Yeah, the easiest place in the world to travel out of if you have one 10 times one to one.

So you were, you were saying when we played the pro-ay of a couple weeks ago that like, yeah, Davis and some of the dudes here, they were flying out of this one, the local one, very frequently and it's quite legitimately five minutes from their door to being wheels up. We, so Davis and I are actually going on a fishing trip and actually leaving them Friday,

so leaving them three days. And our flight takes off at 10.30 and I will leave my house at 10.20 and I will be early. That's awesome. And right now flying internationally or flying wherever, it's so like cancellations this and that layovers. Like, you know, sometimes you don't want to risk that.

And not that we want to risk it there. We're just, that's a perfect example. On Friday, you can, I'll time it. And I'll tell you, when I walk out of my door and when I got on the plane, and I'll tell you exactly how long. Longer than we've gone on this topic. Yes.

Way, yes. What do you, where do you play when you're playing here? on the plane and I'll tell you exactly how long. Longer than we've gone on this top. Yes. Way, yes. Where do you play when you're playing here? I guess this is what I picture to be the dream place to get really good games. Just the crew that you guys have here, the options you have to play here. What's that landscape look like?

Well, we have Frederica, which is a great practice facility, but very wide open. It doesn't really test your ball striking that much But you know fun place to go out and mess around ocean forest, which is the opposite You know a Practice Sility that is you know Doable like it's you can hit balls and chip but it's it's fine. It's nothing spectacular But it's you know absolutely's nothing spectacular, but it's, you know, absolutely complimentary. And the golf course is absolutely a major championship golf course. It is so hard. It's long.

It's tight. It's tough around the greens. You know, it's demanding on every part of your game. And then you have just a little local place, C-POMS, has a Rob Collins design, who, you know, as we all know on here, isenscove designed a short game area that is not really short game because it's 200 something yards long and about 60 or 70 yards wide. And it is, I've taken two or pros down here and they'll say it is top five in the world short game areas. It is, and this is compared to the other place we have down here. And then you have C Island, who has potentially one of the best, they call it the golf performance center, which is like eight hitting bays,

a full club fitting room, club repair room, you know, a gym, a putting studio, everything you could ever imagine on almost a 360 degree range, so you can hit any wind, and then they have a separate area that just as tour pros is allowed to hit on the tee back there, with three golf courses, two of which we play in a tour event.

And the other one, we play when the other ones are busy. So, I mean, to me, I sit back and I was like, if you can't get better here, it's your own fault. Yeah. No, you've made the sale. I'm kind of like, what are real estate prices like up here? No, that is a very, very compelling case. And I kind of wanted to talk to you about,

I guess kind of, for the listeners that aren't familiar with what your path to being on the PGA tour has been, you know, we're at the University of Georgia, you play Latino America, you play web.com, you kind of take us through that timeline and then I wanna talk about how that changes, you know, life and your career. Well, I left University of Georgia

as knowing I wanted to turn pro. I was an all-American one year, but it was kind of like that back door all-American where you finished top 15 in the NCA's and you're like, oh wait, by the way, well, you're an honorable mention all-American. So I had nothing to do with my year long play. So I was like kind of a back to where all American my sophomore year and I wasn't anything my Freshman junior senior year so you know, I was like I'm gonna turn pro

I've always thought about turning pro I wanted to be a professional golfer and a lot of people told me I've always had talent So I was like I'll get a shot and make it through pre-Q my first year and then miss it first stage So I'm like I mean, yeah, I got a lot to lean on right now, right? First take us to first stage. I mean is that like devastating? Is that you would expect to make it through that or I did expect to make through it. Yes. What do you have to shoot to make through? I can't remember what it was there, but I mean, you know I'm not a miss it by four maybe three or four, but like when you're on the back nine

You're only gonna miss by three or four. It feels like you're right there, right? It's not like oh you missed by four five. I was like well if you have nine holes left and you're in four back I mean you're thinking you can still make it right and what I'm kind of getting at here is we're gonna eventually Weed through an enormous volume of professional golfers to get to the PGA tour. And like that story is much as I emphasize that, like you can't tell that story too many times of how many people you got to be better than to be a constant player on the PGA tour. And the more time I spend in this job, the people that do it for long periods of time, I'm more and more amazed at.

So that's kind of what I'm getting out of like, do you show up at first stage, look around back? This is a lot of people that are like me or do you feel like you're much better than most of the players there? I mean, it's both. If you don't feel like you're better than the other guys, and you're not going to win. Yeah, it's just, but anyway, I was more of a the experience side. Like, you know, I had seen guys there that had beaten me in college or guys that had beaten

me in college when I was a freshman or sophomore. So I didn't have anything to lean on other than my college golf. And I had a very, very mediocre college career compared to most of the guys on the PGA tour. But I went down to Argentina. I never forget a flute, Argentina for Q school. Didn't speak any Spanish, went with a buddy of mine. And it was, I believe Adam Shank was at that same qualifier. So Adam Shank and I are now, here we are, right? I mean, it's funny if you would have taken us having a beer after the Latino Q school in Hurlingham,

Argentina, if you would have said like, hey, oh, Harry X, Harry X, that was the name I had in my mind. And so all these guys, you're down here, you're like, you know, at the time, when I had gotten my Latin American tour cart, it felt like I'd got my tour cart because I felt like I had accomplished something. And that was all you need.

When you feel like you accomplished something, it doesn't matter what level, it feels good, and you want more of it, and you want more of it. So once I got that card, I played okay, the first part of Latin America, then I started getting some steam, then I started playing well, then I got, you know, in the top, whatever 40, and I'd kept my card for the next year. And I was like, I didn't care. Like, I kept my card on the Latino America tour. And that was the next biggest accomplishment I've ever

had. And once I kind of, that happened, I played really good and I lost in a playoff in Brazil. And, finished second. And that was when I knew I could play. I was like, when I started, you know, six, seven months ago, I was just happy to be on this tour. And now I'm disappointed that I didn't win. And so that's when I started kind of believing that this, I might be able to do this. This is pretty cool. So I

go to Uruguay, which is Uruguay for people from Tennessee in Georgia, right? But I learned that down. Uruguay. Yeah. Uruguay So I'm down there and I'm in 11th place and Nate Lashley is in 10th Top 10 guys get exempt into final stage. I'm already exempting the second place and Nate Lashley is in 10th. Top 10 guys get exempt into final stage. I'm already exempted into second stage because 11 to 20th gets into second stage.

Nate Lashley and I both miss a cut. So therefore he goes to the final stage and I go second stage. I then fly from your way 24 hours to get home. We didn't have, you know, I was not think I had made, I didn't made enough to fly one time private. So back to that previous story, 24 hours to get home. I have like four days or five days to prepare for second stage. And I'll make it through second stage on the number. And so I get in final stage. And that was when I was like, wow, maybe I can play

on the, at that time, the web.com, the corn fairy tour. And then I get to final stage, and it's believe it or not, it's at PGA National, where the story will evolve to spoilers. No spoilers. And I play terrible. I've finished like 85th and I won't get any starts anywhere. I just, my number's not good enough.

I have to re, I have to Monday qualify to reshuffle in. And I had met some guys down in Latin America, the first of it was in Panama. Chico Durán. If you're on there, Chico, you know, you're my boy. But he, him and his family run the Panama event and he gave me a sponsor's gift. And a lot of guys wrote me letters. I owe a lot of people a thank yous for, you know, sticking their neck out for me. And the best part about the story is I'm staying with a buddy of mine who's cadding for Jonathan Bird. I set my alarm, go to bed for the first night. I'm an early tea time.

And I wake up to him saying, yo, Keith, wake up. And I'm like, what do you, what? And he's like, wake up, it's seven o'clock. And I look, I look over and I grab my phone, my alarm's going off, but the volume's all the way on the line. My T time is at 8.10. Those of you who have played in Panama, you know that it's a shuttle that leaves every 30 minutes

and it's a 45 minute shuttle ride to the golf course. And it's, it's like 701, 702. So I don't shower, I get up, I put my clothes on, go downstairs, have to call a taxi in Panama to drive me 45 minutes to get to the golf tournament. And I sit in there, I don't really speak in Spanish, I'm trying to get something out.

And she's trying to talk back. And then she looks at me and she goes, do you speak English? And I almost jumped out of the car, I was so happy. And I'm like, yes, yes, I'm going to the golf course. I need to go here, just please go as fast as you can, I'll give you whatever you got, just go.

And she's like, okay, perfect. Drive straight there, lets me out, I walk straight into the, I hadn't eaten breakfast, I didn't eat anything, and it's 1,000 degrees in Panama, so I go eat breakfast,

have some water, I hit balls for something and it's a thousand degrees in Panama. So I go eat breakfast, have some water. I hit balls for five minutes. Go to the first tee, I shoot 68, I'm T fourth. Of course. That was the only way I was doing it. It was the only way, I swear, it was the only way that you could have taken some nerves off of golf and done it. It was just the weirdest day like if my buddy, if I had not been staying with him and he

had not been sleeping right there and he had not woken up just, just, just what he didn't have as a limeset, then I would literally, it might not be, anyway, like, I would have done my one chance. That's a really fun fact. Yeah. Exactly. So anyway, I shoot 78 the next day. I have to like, two putt the last half of my 40 feet to make the column number after being T4. Then I shoot 68, 69 or 70, whatever, and finish 14th. It's like, you mean, talk about emotions in one week, almost missed your T time,

T4, almost missing a cut. And then being back in the top 25 to go the next week. So now I fly to Columbia. I finished like 30. If I had to bury the last soul to get top 25 again, I didn't. And then just kind of keep going, right? I play good enough on the on the web tour that year to keep my card, um, play decent in the playoffs, but not good enough. So the next year then, it was like, okay, now I can try to get my tour

card. Like I've performed on the on the on my first year out here. Now the next year, let's see if we can be forward. And I don't know if you want to tee this up or you want to do anything funny, but you know where it's going. You know where it's going, you could take us there. I have a great year, and I kind of stumble toward the end of the season, not stumble, just, you know,

I'm not exactly where I need to be. And so I'm coming down, I play great the first couple rounds of Portland, it's the last of the year, and I'm going the last day in the last group. And I know I have to finish top five or something to get my tour card.

I play good and I'm playing good and I'm playing good to get really nervous on number 12. And I missed like a three foot pot. You can find it somewhere. I mean, it was short and I whipped it. And I was like, I looked at Pete, my caddy, he's still caddy for me, caddy for me this whole time.

And I said, all right, well, we know what happens when you're afraid. So let's not be afraid to ask a balls. Birdie 14, birdie 15, miss probably like an eight footer on 16. And then on 17, I hit the best putt of ever hit. And it rolls right up to the front and stays around the lip. And so, now I know, I know I'm up there,

but I don't know exactly where I am. And one of my best friends in the entire world who actually I played on my high school golf team, Steven Yeager, was standing on the green and he was so nervous, he said he had a beer a hole on the back nine. So you can imagine what kind of state he's in right now because he's already got us to record.

And I'm kind of out of it and I ask him, I say, what do I need to make? Big bird or little bird? I'm not in any sort of mind to ask a legitimate question. I'm just trying to just whatever. And he is worse than me. He's more nervous than me and potentially drunk, right? And he says, big bird baby, come on, big bird. So for the golf lingo guys, big birds and eagle,

and just a bird is a birdie, right? So I'm like, okay, I gotta make eagle to get my card. I'm the only person on the face of the earth that thinks I need to make eagle. Oh my God. The announcers know the cameraman know my caddy knows. Everyone knows. But me, because of a simple miscommunication

with my best friend, he wanted me to get it just as bad as I did. You got advice from the guy, the only guy that was eight beers deep. Yeah, I didn't know that at the time. So I get up there, I hit the best drive ever on 18. Try to just flag on the very left edge of the green, it falls off, you gotta miss it right,

you can easily open down if you don't, not easy, but it's an up and down, right? You miss it left, you're toast. I take it right at the flag, lands right on the green, rules all the way down the slope. I try to hit this hard chip, knock it in, it goes like 30 feet by. People still think I got this putt to go to or not.

I've already, I've already missed it. I've missed it. I've missed it. I'm trying to hold back tears on the green and everybody on the city on the other sheet like oh my god this is the make it's caught and I'm sitting here like oh my god I can't believe I didn't make it to the tour so anyway I miss putt walk in and walking down the thing and I sit down and Rick wild is in there he's just scoring guys on tour now. He's just a great friend and he

He looks and I was like did I need to make Eagle? And he kind of looks at me like in his face start white. I'm like Did I need to make Eagle Rick? He's like now you just needed to make birdie and That was my face turned white, right? I thought I was already crushed. I was extra crushed. And then Rico, the rules official, walks in. This guy has a heart, he's a hard-ass guy.

He's always tough. And he walks in there, takes it off and gives me a hug. And I think he's gonna cry. And I'm like, what is going on right now? Then, Royce, the media guy goes, hey, man, we to do your interview. You can say no, you don't have to do anything if you don't have to. Like I'm just, I was like, nope, I'm going to get out in front of this right now because

if I hold this in, I'm toast. So I went and did the interview, Rick Alcey, it was whatever. Go to Cleveland the next week. So I end up finishing 26, obviously. Don't get my tour card. And go to Cleveland the next or a Columbus the next week and it's like I'm possessed with this person that is so determined to get his tour card that nothing is gonna stop me and it was the best week of golf I've ever played and you won. No. I finished six and that was

pretty good but that was good enough to get my card. As soon as you finished 60. Yeah there was like we're good. Yeah you got your car congrats. Yeah, it was like You know long story short it didn't end up being enough because of all the withdrawals and the hurricane that came through and this That's right, but I finished six and Cleveland too. So I was just I just kept rolling but at the time you know in history I was in so That was that and it's like this chain of events, I've had the waking up thing,

I've had it. Portland thing, where you get bad information. It's like golf already has enough variables that when you throw in the stuff off the course, I mean, it's like, what are we doing? Like I've been, I've talked to Michael Feltz a little bit about swimming. And it's like the same pool, same amount of race, same strokes, same everything.

And he can calculate it down to everything he needs to do. I was like, dude, that's impossible in my sport. It's impossible. It's so hard. And finding a way to not let any of that stuff bother you and only make you better is a mind game that maybe Gandhi could figure out. I don't know. Tiger did for a little bit, but that's it.

God, Lee, man, that was a wild ride. I was, my lazy interpretations. Like, yeah, there's a lot of pro golfers out there that you gotta be better than, you know, better than, and that kind of illustrates it better than anything. It's like, do you, I guess, do you still feel, and we're gonna kind of build up to the PGA tour, do you still feel like a thin line between like where you are and like the PGA tour Latino America?

No, not even close. You've gotten that much better or you just are the level of, of other golfers. Like I'm comparing myself to only Latino guys when I'm on a Latino tour. the level of other golfers. I'm comparing myself to only Latino guys when I'm on a Latino tour. I'm comparing myself only to the corner fairy guys and I'm on a corner fairy tour. Now I'm comparing myself only to the PGA tour guys.

And then after you win, and you're in the WGC's and in the majors, you're comparing yourself only to the guys in those tours. That is the difference. And it's not that there's a thin line. There's a thin line between every single step. Okay, there's a thin line between keeping your card and losing your card in the Latin tour.

Then there's a thin line between getting through the Latin tour. Then there's a thin line of getting on the web and the thin line. There's like 30 thin lines from college to winning on PGA tour, right? So yeah, it's very easy to say there's a thin line. But Dustin Johnson's thin line is being first in the world and tenth in the world. He's never going to go back down that, you know, like, oh, you know, what's the difference between you and when you're on like, it's just a different level of person talent, golf, whatever you want to say. So for me, when I've made it all the way up and I you know starting to play in the WGC's and play in all four majors my second year on tour

You know all this stuff your expectations just go through the roof right you're comparing yourself to the guys that were in the field at the Honda And you won the Honda we have beat Ricky and Brooks, but the only reason Ricky and Brooks were there because they were like one in five in the world Right well now I'm planning is one two three four, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten and trying to beat those guys constantly. You might be able to do it once here and there, but to be able to do it over and over and over and over and over again and stay top 10, top 25 in the world, it's completely a different ballgame. So yes, the line's thin between top 25 and top 50, 50 and 100 all the way back down

until you go to the Latin tour. But staying that consistency between those two is the art of golf. Yeah, it seems to be, and I remember Keppka saying this when he was either a rookie or just coming over from the European tour or whatever, when he's saying, you know, my eyes used to be around the cut line and I would be at the cut line.

You know, my eyes then kind of changed to like top 25 and I'd be around top 25. And then it was like, Hey, if I'm finishing top 10, it's a good week. And I'd be around top 10 until you get to the point where you are picturing yourself winning. I think that's kind of what you're saying on a different scale. He's just talking about PJ Tora finishes, but like, Hey, no, no, I'm not only am I better than all of these people. Like I need, I need to go beat these guys. That is my goal.

That is the, you know, the care at the end of this rope. It's stepping stones. It's when I got my Latin American tour card, it was my first step up. And so that was like, wow, I want to make another step, you know, keeping my car on Latin tours the next step, right? Then get in the web tours the next step. You can't sit there on the Latin tour in Argentina and think the next step is right? Then get in the web tours the next step. You can't sit there on the Latin tour in Argentina

and think the next step is the PGA tour. Like, that's it, yeah. You have to. One shot of time mentality. It is, but it's so hard to do in our game. Like, you just have to be the best version of yourself at any given time and know that, like, what you're trying to do is right in that moment

is keep going and keep going and keep going. And then eventually, if you went on tour, great, right? But it's easy to say that, but it's impossible to do. And things just kind of, you know, they fall your way here and there, you take your confidence when you can get it, you try to throw the negative out when you get it. You know, and that's the hard part about it,

where the line is so thin when you're on it, right? The line that I'm on, you know, trying to win the Honda is so thin when you're on it, right? The line that I'm on, you know, trying to win the Honda is so thin between winning and finishing second, right? Well, that's a completely different line than the line I was three years ago. Yeah, gosh, it's, I feel like I'm more confused. The more, like, no, no, like you're explaining it very, very well, but I'm also like, I feel like every time I get closer

to drilling down, you know, why certain guys are on tour for long periods of time, I get further away from it. Like, you know, is that makes sense? Yeah, because you're playing people, you're not playing the game. Like you can't, like in basketball or football, the fastest guy in the guy that has the best hands is going to be the best period. Well, that has, I mean, in golf, it's like, oh, well, the guy hits his father, this is going to be good. Well, no, the guy that puts the best going to be good, no. I mean, it's just, there's like in golf, it's like, oh, well, the guy hits his farthest is going to be good. We'll know the guy that puts the best going to be good. No, I mean, it's just, there's like we said, there's so many variables in our sport that

it's, it takes, it's like an entire puzzle that you all have to just fit in perfectly and just happens to work. And some guys, I mean, I will, I could name you 10 guys that are way better at golf than me hands down. I will say it to my grave that are on tour. Why? It's not because I worked harder than them. That's BS. They worked just as hard as me. Is it, it's your belief and it's the, you know, the cards fall your way. It's the opportunity. Yeah. It's exactly what it is. Like if I, you take advantage of your opportunities and that's it. They had opportunities, I had opportunities. I happen to come through in mind and they didn't. Has nothing to do with being with a plane pressure, has nothing to do with I had more or less it just it is what it is like John Peterson is still the best golfer

I've ever played with I don't care what anybody says on this like I've played with him before he is Unbelievable right and there's plenty guys that I played with in college Bobby why Cory what's it all these guys They're number one in the world amateurs. I never beat them ever even in the little professional terms we played in and Does that just golf being on the PGA tour mean everything? Well, no, it's just your job. They could do amazing things and other things or they could still come on the PGA tour.

Like it doesn't matter, it's just the way it goes. Is there something too though that, you know, kind of like a college, let's just take a college basketball prospect, right? That has, you know, big, know, big athletic ability, big reach, maybe isn't completely honed in, but when they come to the NBA with the right training, they have the tools to perform at a higher level

than they did even in college. Do you see that with yourself at all? Like you are one of the best drivers in the game, right? You're, I think your game projects out very well for the PGA tour, even if you hadn't had incredible success leading up to it, like you have a skill that translates very well to the PGA tour and you've been able to,

you know, it's a different, like if Cory wits it and you know, by white or beaten you in college, that, like there's college basketball players that are way better, you know, than, you know, player X or whatever, but when they get to the NBA, player X is way better. Do you see that anywhere in a comparison in golf and how you've been able to succeed on the PGA tour?

In terms of me and myself, yes, like there's a lot of people in my camp that have been that have believed in me since before day one. Like, like guys like Peter Persons who played at Georgia and helped us see as my short game, my assistant coach Jim Douglas, my swing coach Chan Reeves who I've worked with since high school, you know, these guys, they've been, they played professionally and they've taught some of the best players in the world at Georgia.

So Jim Douglas saw, you know, Bubba and Kisner, you know, all these guys go through Kirk, everybody, you know, Peter played on tour, actually won on tour and Chan played at Tech and played professionally. So they could see that, right? They could see the things I couldn't see as a naive college guy. And so they were the ones that bleed in that, right? So once I left Georgia and the college atmosphere, which I did really, I was really good at college.

I wasn't necessarily really good at golf, I was really good at college. It's a lot of growing that happened that day. Yeah, of course. And I think it happens to a lot of guys are just, like I don't know if you've heard the name Davis Thompson, but you will eventually, like he is a professional golfer in college, like period. If he can stay on the track, he's gonna be easy and do that.

Me, I had the talent, but I wasn't performing. Now, the difference in my opinion is being able to harness that talent and golf is a lot harder than any other sport because of all the intangibles and all the variables and all this and that where you could look at guys as this guy's got a lot of game, right? Anybody can look at somebody and say they have talent like Brooks Keppka had talent and he played on the challenge tour in this and that. I mean, Brooks Keppka was good. He was really good at it for our state,

but he wasn't the next thing, right? He wasn't the next thing on the challenge tour. He's just really good. Then he got better and better and better and better, right? Well, everybody knew that he had talent. They just, nobody knows how to develop it. They might, but it takes a team, it takes a calculated approach, and it takes a player believing it takes a calculated approach and it takes a player believing

in that approach for him to do that. So to answer your question in a very long complicated way, yes, you can tell when somebody has talent, but that does not mean they're going to play on tour because there's so many things that it goes into the lifestyle, the travel, you know, getting your head kicked in so many times missing the cut in which it tall Kansas or, or in Buenos Aires, right? Like those are things that you can't predict. Like in the NBA, you have your circumstances.

Here's your team, here's your coaches, the gym's the same, everything's the same. You know, whatever. You guys go over to Europe and they play. That's like me going to the Latin tour. Those are the guys that are, it's hard for them to make. The speech, the Justin Thomas's, those guys were on a fast track to the tour. You knew they were good, but they were good at every level. Me and some other guys on tour,

we might have had a talent, but they just blossomed later. Well, I think an underrated part of professional golf is you touched on it there, like getting your teeth kicked in and which it's all, is like the volume of shots you gotta put up before you succeed, right? Nobody just goes right out and makes every cut

on the corn fairy tour. Like you gotta go, every week is not like life or death, right? It is about throwing 30 starts out there and succeeding in 12 of them. Even though it feels like everyone's life or death. Right, so like this is a bad, you know, correlation, whatever, but I, it bothers me when people, you know, get on, let's say like, like a Tony Romo or a Steph Curry or whatever they're playing in a pro event, and like, taking the round of golf they just played as like, a

representation of their ability, right? And it's like, no, like, it would take 20 starts on a tour before you really understood the potential of Steph Curry's game, right? Or someone like Romo. And it's like that in Pro Golf as well. It's not a make, you missed what, three of four cuts before you won in the Honda or something like that. It's not a week to week, you have to be great every week.

It's like, how good can you be out of this volume of opportunities? I mean, that's perfectly said. And then the other, the, you know, a lot of my, probably my least favorite thing that anyone that has anything to do with professional golf says is it only takes one week. Like, all it takes is one good week. Like, oh, yeah, Keith had one good week at the Honda and he's playing in all the majors and WGC's and whatever, right? Do you know how many freaking weeks it took to have one good week? It took like five years of good weeks to build the confidence to do that.

Yes, on paper, on results, all man, all it takes is one good week. Like, you're not wrong in the surface level, right? Result oriented world that we live in, right? Everybody can log on and see what I shot the last week, right? Well, what if something I clicked that week on the back nine when I missed the cut and it felt good and I was going to have a great off week practicing it? And I went and want, is it one good week? No, it had everything to do with before that. Take this, you know, for a very surface level comment,

but to me, it seems almost, I don't know how you define harder in this scenario. It's harder to get to where you are than it is to succeed where you currently are. Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, yes. I don't know how to phrase that, but I know what you're saying.

It's very hard to get where we are, but it's, I mean, I honestly, personally, I don't know how to phrase that. I know what you're saying. It's very hard to get where we are. But it's, I mean, I honestly personally, you know, 2020 after the pandemic, we went back, I didn't play very well, right? I just didn't. And my thing is like, for me, it's so hard to maintain that same thing. Yes, it's easier on the tour because you have 125 guys keep their job. You know, the, the Latin tour is 60, the cornferries 70 or 75. And then even to move up, you have to be top 10, top 25. Well, on tour, yeah, it's easier to maintain that because you have more flexibility.

Like it's easier to finish than top 125 than is to finish on the 25, right? But to play where everyone that's on the PGA Tour wants to play, which is all the majors, all the WGC's, the tour championship, you know, trying to win the FedEx Cup, all that. Like you have to finish to the top 25 every year on the PGA Tour. That is, that's hard.

I mean, I'm sorry, that's hard. Like that is a lot hard. I'm not saying it's harder than getting to the tour, but I'm saying it's that whole separate. Like there's that next line, that next, you know, real thin line between finishing, you know, 50th and 25th. And trust me, your sponsors know when you don't.

Your performance based stuff knows you know, your FedEx got my everything knows. Like yeah, we play for a lot of money, but there's like the difference in the guys that are finishing top 10 in the world and the guys that are finishing in top 100 in the and the guys that are finishing top 100 in the world, I mean, it's 10 fold. Do you ever think back to like Latino America days

and you know, you've been on the tour, PGA tour since the fall of 2017, correct? Yes. So do you ever like think, you know, I'm sure when you're in Latino America, you would look up at like one week on the PGA tour, be like the greatest week of your life. And now that's your week, every week now.

Like that's your, Oh yeah. That's your new reality. How do you, what is that like transition like to everyday being? What, what a lot of golfers and many golfers in the world dream of is now your reality. How do you cope with that day to day?

Well, I mean, going back to the first conversation we had, I remember hopping on my first private plane with Jordan Speeth flying between the playoff events. And I felt the same way, like holy cow. This is, you know, this is it. Well now, you know, whatever. Like when you play on tour and you, your first event, our Monday qualified in the Valspar,

Wiles on the Web and finished 11th. That was, that was my holy calmer. How much money did you give for that? More than I'd made my entire career in one day or four days, whatever. But, all it takes is one week. Yeah, you're right. But, it's like if I could go back to the feeling

that I had at that Valspar and had that every single week, I mean, it's mean, it's insane. It is so amazing. But you can't channel that every week now. It's impossible because what becomes a habit or what becomes, you know, what is a luxury eventually becomes a habit if you do it constantly. It's like, I mean, you asked Charles Howe who's or Stewart Sink? Like sink like I'm winning winning doesn't change I've only won one so I don't know but I'm a I'm Siking myself that winning doesn't change. It's always gonna feel that good

Tiger if tigers fills that way after his first win for 80 of them then yeah, baby It was rock and roll, but I can't I don't know but in terms of actual tour events, it stinks to say that it doesn't feel like it did. It's starting to feel, it can't though. It's starting to feel like work. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but like I now know like,

hey man, I gotta go work on my wedge game if I'm gonna stay out here. Where before I was going to work on my wedge game so I could get out there. It's different. I would have said it. Huge would a huge really different staying and getting huge different stuff It's it's way different and I'm not saying one's better worse. It's it's just It's finding that internal Motivation at all times in no matter what like I have a bad week in on the tour and it stinks, right?

I'm like, well, you're still in the PJ Tour, man. Like, your life's awesome. Well, you're right, but it's still my freaking job. Like, it sucks when you don't perform. There's stress that no matter if it's a dream job and that's your job, it could be my job, anything like that. There's stresses that come with it that don't... I think a lot of people off the street will look at, you know, a PGA tour life

and say you guys got it. I mean, you guys got a lot of things. It's true. We have it made, yes. We're not saying we don't, but it doesn't mean you don't have stresses. Yes, exactly. So when it comes to like,

and I mean this question in the most literal sense of when you have, you don't have every possible playing opportunity for you, but you have basically the playing opportunities that you that you would want. You have a scheduling choice for a lot of the starts that you make. What is, how do you make out a schedule? How do you, you know, I'm trying to find the difference between the balance of finding rest week, person knowing like, hey, I have the opportunity to play for $7 million this week. And I feel like the hurdle for taking a week off has to be huge. You know, when

you're when you're fighting for status on tour, when you're just fighting to make it out on tour, I'm sure courses go into that, you know, scheduling what fits your game blah, blah, blah, but the what is a motivating factor for teaming it up in a tournament? I may seem obvious, but I kind of want to know how guys make those decisions. I mean, I think it is two parts. One is, do you like the golf horse? Do you, you know, what tournaments are around it? And then really where you need, like what, you, what's your immediate goal?

And that one should be third. Like the only reason I say that is, like, after the shutdown and then we started playing again, like, I was in, like, 70th or something on a FedEx cup. And I usually had all my honey holes coming up, like Wells Fargo and, you know, all these terms that I played well in

prior that were completely canceled. And so then I was like, hey, I only have like eight tournaments, I think, until the playoffs. I have to play, I only have like eight tournaments, I think, until the playoffs. I have to play, I had to take one week off. You just, no way you're going to perform in nine weeks. I mean, I think that's easy to say, but you had to, you felt like you had to play all of them. And that stinks because your immediate goal is I want to get to your championship and I

feel like I got to play as much as I can to get the most opportunity. On a normal year, you, you look at, you know, some people say, I never play well on my third week. Some people say, I never would play well on my fourth week. Anything past your fourth week, if you're playing well on your fifth week, it's kind of a, you know, fluke, I guess. Some people say, I need one week off. Some people say, I need two. And the only way you figure that out is experience. And, but the good thing is, when you're rookie, you have to play every term you get in because you don't get in everything.

Once you eclipse that, you've played enough and you've figured enough out of yourself that you can kind of start making those choices. So, you know, the point is, as a rookie, you play in everything you get in. And then as a second year, you've learned some of the courses you've liked and you figured

out, hey, I played good on my third week every week last year. I'm going to play Thorene Row. I'm going to do this. I'm going to take two weeks off. And then I would say 10% of it is golf course, maybe 15% because my best week at a place like Hilton head is not as good as Brian gay or CT pans week at Hilton head. Why? Because they hit it straighter than me and they put better than me, right? Well, they don't have to hit their driver. Like when you put me against them at Wells Fargo, I'm, you know, and you put our best weeks there. I want to probably do a little bit better.

But the at the end of the day, you can play well anywhere and you can also play bad anywhere like I've missed a cut at Torrey ponds like the last two years and Torrey ponds is like my heaven of a golf course because bad play You're pointing at specifiers in the world. It doesn't matter what course you're playing But my point is good play you have a bet like a probably a 10% better chance of finishing higher on a golf course that suits your game. And I'm not saying it's everything. It's maybe 10%. Because you know, you can go both ways, but when you do all the cards fall in your way, it gives you a inch of advantage and we're trying to find every possible one we can out

there. So let's do it. Let's try like a little exercise. Let's say totally impromptu. Let's just pick a place like, let's just say the Bahamas. Okay. PGA tour announces this week. Hey, next week we're going to have a tour event in Bahamas for $3 million per. Would you go play? Yeah, I'd love to go to Bahamas. Okay. I mean, I got nothing else. Let's do. All right, let's try one million dollars, would you go put?

It's easier to say now, because it's in the off season, we don't have anything going on. This is like our break, it's like, well, maybe. But like, if I knew that this term it was here, in the middle of the off season, it was like no chance. Right. Like no, and it's not because of the money.

It's has nothing to do with the money, it has everything to do with performing your best. Yes, it's hard to turn down the money, but eventually you become numb to it because chasing the money, you'll never make it. You're only trying to perform your best. And in order to perform your best, you oftentimes have to take weeks off

which you're passing up opportunities. That is the answer I was looking for right there. Of like, because I always, I'm amazed at the dudes that have made 40 to $50 million out on tour that when there's a weird tournament that's putting up a ton of money to go play and they'll still go play it, right? Once you have already made a ton of money,

then I don't know. I guess I'm surprised how often money is a motivating factor. So it's refreshing to hear you say that that's like a byproduct of the golf more than it is like what you're playing for. Yeah, I mean, it's you're rewarded for it and it's definitely there. Like, I mean, of course, who doesn't want to have all this stuff? Like that's the United States in a hole, like right. Right.

But I was curious that that answer would change if it was a three million dollar first or For seven million you're like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna be able to make you're gonna make the most money Simply by performing your best and so whenever you do to perform your best That is what will determine how much money you make and sometimes If that money thing starts trying to tilt your scales a little bit You have to remember that the performance is way more important and the more you perform, the more money you make. So when you win the Honda in 2019, if I were, if I was to ask you to rank how these things shake out, the biggest priorities that come with winning a tournament, you have a master's

exemption, you have two years of job security, you have one point, whatever million dollars that is, and you get like new category of T times is basically kind of what I'm guessing that's not leading the cat, but those are some of the things that come with a win, correct? To your job, to your job, no doubt. Well, so if you were,

like let's just say have those four things, like you have to power rank them. Yeah, one, that's one, which is the two-year job. Now this is, remember, I'm, I've only been on tour for like, of course, 16 months, right? Like, I, like, I'm fighting for my job every week, that week, right? That's number one. Now, when number four or five or seven for guys that are top 15 world, I'm, it's completely different. But for me, in

that moment, Keith Mitchell, one job security, two would definitely be the money. Three would be the masters, and four would be the tea times. And the only reason I said three, the masters of the money, is in that moment, when I won, you feel like you're going to play the masters every year of the rest of your life. Like, if I never play another masters again, which I hope to God does not the case, I will change that answer with you on the show and you will hear it. But like, that's, that was in that moment in time, right? And so that's kind of

where I stand is like, you know, as a professional golfer, your dream is always playing the masters, right? Well, once you play it once, okay, now I want to win, right? Yeah. So, okay, so I've never asked this question and I kind of came up with it and I actually, I love the question. It's completely hypothetical of course and not realistic. But how much would you pay in cash for a master? This is all about money. Have you know this all conversations?

No, I'm trying to get to like, how to rank all this stuff, how it all works for a professional But how much would you pay for a master's exemption if you could buy your way in But would that be worth to you like me right now? Yeah, like you can play in the 2021 masters I Mean if I said it was it would cost you 200 grand would you would you do it? No, I would do it on the Monday of, if I hadn't gotten a glimpse already. Okay, we're Monday of masters week, you're not in.

I'm not in. Somebody tries to sell you a stock. No, not to, no, no, no, no, no, I don't know. Honestly, I don't think, now that I'm thinking about, I don't think I could do it. Like I thinking about, I don't think I could do it. Like, I just, it just feels dirty. Well, yeah, it's turned out to be a hypothetical question. I have a theoretical question. I'll do it for, I do it for a hundred grand easily.

Okay. That's a good idea. I mean, if that actually was like, hey, it got so like, you're listening to this, like, no, I would never do that. Of course, it's not a actual, it's what they call a hypothetical. But like, that's, I think that's an interesting question of like, what is that work? But yeah, and that's such a personal, like, of course, it's individual,

not a personal individual question, right? Because Tigers in the Masters for Us is like, well, I would pay zero dollars. You know, a guy that's never playing the Masters and, you know, this is your chance and he has no money He can't afford that. I don't know. Yeah a dollar a million who knows it's it's very personal is a terrible question That's a great question. I'm gonna ask that to everyone you should ask that to everyone just so you can get good responses

Because I know that this is what it's about but as somebody you're asking to let's like Look that's what You guys are drinking out of my master's service somewhere here. I feel like I'm cheating on it. Well, so let's go to you winning. We're not going to talk about the money that comes with you winning the Honda because I've been beating you up with money. Jets, C.I.

I might have been the besides of that maybe a bit too much, but it's interesting. I think if somebody was to meet you or would if they had Opportunity sit down and ask PJ tour players questions that would be a long line what did one I don't disagree? Okay, I'm just giving you a hard time. I know. All right, so I want to go to the Honda. You've not won your what was your most recent win? I guess prior to that I think it was a G pro win. G pro tour. I mean, truly, I did I never won on the web tour. Obviously, I won the PGA tour before that. I lost in a playoff on the Latin American tour. So it would have been a mini tour event up in, um, God, where was up in North Carolina somewhere? Like forest something and one like five grand. Are you when you're, I guess what is, is

there a holy shit moment of like oh my god I could win a PJ tour event if so when is that during that week is it Friday Saturday's back nine Sunday no it's not it's it's it hit me on literally while I'm walking around the green reading my pot and I did everything in my capability to block that feeling out because if you ever had that feeling that oh my god this is to win there is Because if you ever had that feeling, oh my God, this is to win. There is no chance you could seize that moment in your first time, no chance. And that translates to anybody at any point,

having a putt on the 18th hole that's for something. It could be to break 90 for the first time. It translates at all levels. You have to dumb it down too. This is what I have to do to make this putt. And not, oh my God, this is to win when, blah, blah, blah, beat Ricky and Brooks. You brought the money up that time.

I didn't say that. That's why I said blah, blah, blah. But anyway, if those thoughts are crossed on mine, I'm not saying what it made her miss it, but like, they just adds way more personal pressure, internal pressure that might be harder to handle. I'm not saying you can or can't. It's just why.

It's just make it as simple as possible. Make the most complicated thing and go off as simple as possible. That is so hard to do. Oh yeah. Especially when you're trying to convince yourself to do it. Yeah. Especially after negative stuff has happened.

Yeah. Whew. But you make the putt. How did you do that? Well, let's go back to 15, right? The shot on 15 is like, what is a front pin, you land it between the pin and the water.

Yeah, I mean, I've talked about it stake. I've talked about this a lot, and I would love for somebody that's a podcast expert to see if my answer has changed at all, but to me, I remember knowing like the yardage was perfect. The wind, the yardage was perfect, the wind was perfect. Everything was perfect.

The only thing that wasn't was, the pen was right next to the water, right? And so I remember looking at my caddy, do we hit this right at it? He's like, yes, the wind's down off the right. Let's just go right at it Because you know if you hit it right at it and it stays there is perfect if the wind pushes it over to the middle of the green Well, I think subconsciously my right at it like you go back and look at the footage like I shuffle like a lot to the right while I'm over the ball And then I hit it and I hit it perfect.

And I look up and it's out over the water. And I'm like, what in the world? And it's just perfectly draws right. And if I knew as soon as I looked up, it was gonna be perfect. And, you know, subconsciously, I literally just moved over to the right because I was trying to hit it close. And that's the difference is like,

when you're on, you're on. Like everything you're doing and thinking is on. And I was like, I obviously didn't push it because if you push a nine iron, it doesn't cover because the winds off the right. And if you push it, it's going to fight the wind. And then it's going to just fall short in the water. It was like 162 or 163 hole hit my 9 iron exactly like 161. It was perfect number, just a little bit of help.

So it would have come up short and I hit it and it started drawing with the wind and it was perfect. I'm a big believer in especially at your level, and especially when you're on that your your the right side of your brain is more activated there than the left side of your brain and that your body is intuitively when you're visualizing that target, or the final result of where it wants to go,

your body is gonna act on that. So if you're lined up a little right, your body inherently knows that and you're still swinging the ball with the goal of it ending at the target. Does that make any sense? Yeah, I mean, it's like guys when they're like Kobe when he's scored like 80 or something, point of saying,

he's just, he's getting the ball and shooting every chance he gets, because he knows it's going to go in. Like he's not thinking about his elbow placement on his jump shot from a three-point line. If you to open, if you to lined up left on that, I believe you would have opened up the club face and pushed one right at the pin. You know what I mean? When you're that dialed in. Yeah, I'm correct.

Yeah. If that's what you're trying to say, 100% like you're just trying to get out of your own way at that. You're playing so good, you're just trying to get out of your own way. Is that, is this might be a really dumb question, but is that the best golf you've ever played in a week? Wow, I've never thought about that. this might be a really dumb question, but is that the best golf you've ever played in a week? Wow, I've never thought about that. Cause I asked Max that when he won Wells Fargo,

and he's like, yeah, of course, but I was like, you know what, like the best golf I've ever played is not necessarily tied to my best results. It was the most consistent golf I've ever played. It was not the best. And the reason is like, I've played better rounds, way better rounds, made more pots, hit it better, but for four days in a row on that heart of a golf course,

it was the most consistent golf I've played. Like I never got ahead of myself. I never did, you know, I was just, I mean, nine under one, like, yeah. And that's, that, that shows you how hard the golf course is. Like, I mean, the best golf I've played ever was the weekend at Arnold Palmer this past year.

I think I shot like one over or one under or something and it was the hardest, you know, it was struck I was like 78, right? Like, yeah, I played bad on Friday, but for four round stretch to win a PGA Tour event, there's no way you can't say that was your cumulatively best off unless you're Phil Mikkelson at the British Open finished second to the inter extension in that battle,

but there you go. There's no way that wasn't his best off in the Evie's ever. It was something like the fifth best major performance of the last like blah blah blah years and the only one in the top like whatever to not want. one. So that's the exception of not winning and playing your best golf. It's right there. Other than that, I'm with Max. Well, we had quite an interesting, I would say an interesting conversation when we played the program a few weeks ago about distance, engulf, rollbacks. I think, you know, we get challenged a lot, like, hey, you guys need to have somebody

on it, like maybe takes the other side of the argument. You're very anti-rollback, it seems to be. And I will admit, you made some of the best points I've heard made about the concept. So, I guess, you seem familiar with kind of some of the things we say about the golf ball, what not where is your difference lie? And as best as we can try to reheat that.

I think we kind of came to a point at the end where we understood each other. Yeah, and we didn't really, it wasn't like agreeing to disagree try to reheat that. I think we kind of came to a point at the end where we understood each other. Yeah, and we didn't really, it wasn't like agreeing to disagree like I hate that. Like we just like felt like we both learned more from the conversation and went on. Like it wasn't like, I'm at it you, you're dumb. I'm like, yeah, it was like,

it was probably one of the most enjoyable, I wouldn't even call it heated. Enjoyable like tough conversation. Yeah, it was good challenge. It was challenging on both sides, but very challenging. So I guess you how do I where do we start that I guess you started okay, I'm you told us too far. Yeah, I'll roll that I'll roll that up right out there. Why doesn't the ball go too far? Well, to backtrack, I'll say you started with like with, you know, if the ball doesn't go as far, the best players are still going to figure out a way, you know, they're still

going to be the best players. That's one of the first things you started with. Yeah, I agree with that. If you're top 10 in the world, you're top 10 in everything. Like every top 10 player in the world hits it far and all of them put it good, all of them hit it good, all of them have good short games, right? There's guys that hit it really far that are good and have won, and then there's guys that put it really good and don't hit anywhere that have won. Brendan Todd's a perfect example. I'm the other example, right?

You know, Cameron Champ, like, just, you can go on both sides, but the guys that are top 10 in the world are gonna be top 10 in the world no matter what you do with the equipment. So people can stop that argument. Like, Jack Nichols would've been the number one in the world, no matter what era he would have been, Tiger would have been the number one in the matter

what era Dustin Johnson, you cannot tell me Dustin Johnson would not be good no matter what the clubs are doing. I definitely would not say that. Okay, so the point is, my point to you is why should you roll the ball back? And this is where it got good, was when you used

your example about when you wanted to get better and you started hitting it farther and you're like, this is too easy. And it wasn't because the ball was going too far. It was because the equipment itself became so forgiving that the average player could hit it farther and better. It takes it. You said it took some of the talent and skill out. Took a lot of creativity out. I was. Yeah, creativity.

That was the word. Jesus. It made me realize the value in just learning a stock shot that you can probably play. 90% of the time. Right. In a way, like tournament golf became very much like, all right, I need to figure out a way that my nine iron draws two yards, and I can rely on that.

And that's different than the distance debate, but yeah, I think that is kind of where I think it ended up at. And it was when in doubt for me, when I was, you know, feeling queasy about a t shot, the safest club to reach for was driver. Yeah. Cause that driver heads pretty big. Yep. Do you think the same way sometimes? I do. And I also, but like my, the best way to look for was driver, because that driver heads pretty big. Yep.

Do you think the same way sometimes? I do. And I also, but like, the best way to look at Tiger Swing in the 90s, you look at Phil Swing in the 90s, right? They were slower, longer, smoother, trying to hit the center of the face, trying to get the ball to, you know, spin the right amount, trying to get the right trajectory, like Davis Love, you know, was one of the first guys that could really shallow that ball, ball out and still hit it far, right?

He could figure, he figured that out through technique and through skill and through hard work. He didn't figure it out because of track man. Yeah. That's the difference. So you take tiger and fill, well, they've been good at every level of their game no matter what the equipment is, right? So you're never going to take the top players out here.

And that's not the goal. Right. It's not. So the goal, according to the USJ, is about, you know, oh, golf courses are going to, we're going to run out of space. We're going to run out of room. You know, they have to get so long the guys are hit and so long. Well, you're talking about like 1% of 1% that are hitting it too far for your club,

right? Fine. Right. But the longer you make the golf courses, the more it plays into their hands. And that's coming from the guy that is, one of the main reasons, if not the main reason he's on tour is because of his driver.

And that's me. You're just the longer you make the golf courses, the more you're gonna play in my hand. I'm fine with it, go with it, baby. Yeah. You roll that ball back and you move those tees back, that's only gonna help me. Sure. Because the shorter guys are gonna hit it shorter and we're still gonna hit it along. that go with it, baby. Yeah. You know, you roll that ball back and you move those tees back, that's only going to help me.

Sure. Because the shorter guys are going to hit it shorter and we're still going to hit it along. It does not matter. So my thing is, you take Bryson, because everybody loves talking about Bryson. You take whoever and put him on Hilton head and see how many times he hits his driver, ball conversations out of the question. It's different. It's not out of the question I wouldn't say, but it's very different. It's less held in head. It was interesting. I know. And he still played good. He almost won.

He's Dustin Johnson almost wins Hilton head every time. And he hits like three drivers. Yeah. I'm trying to figure out where to start with that. I agree that, okay, the further you go back, you know, the better for the longer hitters, I agree that it's talking about 1% of 1%. That's why I'm pro bifurcation camp. I think at the top level, there's no reason the ball should go as far as it does. And I think if you return to a more reasonable T than a 490 par 4, let's say it's 440 now, with a ball that doesn't go as far, I think you introduce a much more diverse set of skills needed to get it through 72 holes. Then, so take current ball, if you move, just move the tee up. So you're saying, all right, move the tee's back gives me better advantage, right?

You're going to be able to hit driver nine irons where guys are hitting drivers. So, of course, great advantage for you. If you just move the tee up, now the game is driver wedge for you basically every hole, right? I don't find that very interesting. I don't either. Yeah. And my point is golf courses need to bring their rough in, rough up, green, greens faster, more undulating you know. So you don't that's not the only answer, right? That's not the only answer. I have no problem when you say the whatever different balls. My point is with all the technology we have, there are shafts, there are club heads, you take the loft off, you change the

different sound. You know, you have a blot of ball, we can find a way to take the spin off. The biggest thing that I say about that is you see all these guys in the longest years in the world now are a lot of them hurting fades. The lot of them hurting fades because technology can take the spin off where when you had the Davis loves back in the day, he was a long as hitter because he had a low like I mean low the club face is coming in low shallow and they he had a draw to take the spin off. He hit it farther because of his technique and how he hit the ball and his attack angles

and everything like that. I hit it farther simply because I can swing it faster. That is it. Okay, my natural swing, if I can hold onto it and let my body turn and I don't have to do anything funky with my hands and get it shallow to take some spin off to get the optimal launch, which is all feel back then by the way, which is even more impressive.

I can put a stiffer shaft in there and hit a cut and have the perfect spin rate. Why? Because this machine told me in this shaft guy knows everything about his shafts and everything like that. So you can take anybody's swing. This is where we really agree on you can take anybody swing and optimize it with equipment period Like anybody on tour that has a funky swing a funky move this and that hits down on it hits up on it hits this hits that And you can optimize it with technology. We're back in the day the swing produced

Everything that's trajectory the spin and everything and guys had to do that by feel and by you know I mean even before camera imagine imagine before video, right? And even when the video guys would look at that and stuff, now you can take a guy that's average to good. And then you take a guy that's pretty average on the PGA tour and then you can put him through all the club testing that we go through in this game. It's going to get better. Sure.

It's going to get better with that, like the technology and that I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better.

I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better.

I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better.

I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better.

I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to put this great technology in my hand, right? And now I'm going to optimize this, right? But if you take that cog out, right? What's the equipment? Okay. Let's just, and I do not think that you should, everyone should be using Persemin. But let's just say, I bet that would bring the skill back. That sure would, but I've said that.

You would have a lot of guys on tour right now that would not be on tour. Well, hypothetical. So there's a reason why. No, it makes me laugh when people try to downplay the role the equipment has in it. And there's better athletes, there's track man, there's better data.

We have those three things, right? But you take the key variable out of that being equipment, which no one does voluntarily because the equipment's very good, you put persimmon in, that changes all the next parts of the process, right? The risk-reward analysis of swinging super hard might change the way you are doing... You might not be optimizing your swing

to launch it high and far every time because you can't control your dispersion nearly as well. So now, when you get to a certain point where you're not hitting it as accurate as you are when you're hitting it far, your strategy of how you play a golf course might change significantly. So I think that there's, you can view it in one way, which is like, let's just take those

four components and say they're all contributing the ball going far. That's accurate. But if you, the big one of, if you take the, you can't, you're not taking trackman away. You're not taking the fact that we have more knowledge away. Correct. Perfect. So what you could change is equipment, right? So when you say equipment, what are you saying? I think it's a combination of how the ball spins in the size of driver heads. Okay. Now this is the best part about this is the USGA set the driver head. Some of my fact

checks is when did the USGA set the driver head at 460? I do not know the answer that. I mean it was forever ago. And you know why? I'll know by you know it looks bad it's this, it's that, the center guy. Well you know obviously you learn technology bigger, bigger you know and it what five years ago I would say five years ago is when everything became 460. Like I remember my first year in two I played that tailor made M1 440 head, and it was like, whoa dude, you're not playing 460, you're not giving yourself that advantage. And that's the point. Like that goes back to making the game

more challenging and not making you hit the ball necessarily shorter. I think it all is the same argument, except we so, we're so stuck on distance is that if you make it the golf clubs more difficult to hit or more difficult to, you know, less forgiveness, I would say, you're going to scale distance back because guys aren't going to swing as hard because the sweet spot's not as big. The ball's not going to go straight and it's going to take a lot more like hand touch

skill than it is brute strength. And so that's going to let you get excited when someone does square one up and go for a long drive. Exactly. Because right now you look at how Phil Michaels in the swing is right. He still misses a lot of fairway. So it's not perfect. It's not, Bryson still hits it everywhere, right?

But the level of dispersion is getting less and less and less and less and less and less. And we're going to eventually all be in 48 and shafts. I promise you in four years we're all going to be 40 and shafts. shaft companies are going to figure out a way to make 48 shafts. Be just as forgiving as 45 or if they're not just forgiving, you're gaining more distance. The data is going to tell us that, you know, hitting it far. We're going to go in that way, and we're going to have the same conversation every year, because if you talk to the guy in 1920, an old Tom Morris, whatever, and they're like,

all that guy in 1950 hits it way too far. Well, we're having the same conversation because everybody in their generation wants it to stay the same in their generation period, right? So it's always the next generation that pushes the envelope and makes it different. So I'm not saying we go back in time. I don't want us to go backwards. You can you can change it by making it more skill based than it is simply brute strength. And that's not by making the ball go shorter. It's making more difficult to keep it straight and keep it in the fairway and stuff like that.

I agree, I would say for the most part. That's fine. Yeah, yeah, no, that's, I wanna know what about that you disagree? No, I think what you said there, I agree with, and that just making it go shorter does not address the issue. No. I think it's a common misconception about the whole issue.

It's not like 20% rollback. First of all, no one's arguing 20%. 10% would be enormous. 10% would be too much, I think, in my mind, of just a rollback. And that's a separate conversation of just making the ball go short. Because the long guys are still getting a longer short guy is still going to do short. Doesn't do any difference.

I guess one of many points I have on this is like, what? It just doesn't make sense to stretch the scale of golf any further than it already is. Like, it doesn't make sense to go further back. And if you don't go further back, it's still going to be driver wedge, which I don't think is that interesting, right? So if we're shrinking the scale, one by either making the ball go less distance or two addressing it by making harder control, smaller driver heads more risk in it going far to the point where I can get excited if Rory hits a drive over the corner and has wedges. He's way more impressive.

He earned it. He earned it before. Yeah. I am not amazed by 330 drives in the fairway anymore. Of course not. If you follow shot link and there's they always pair three bombers together and like you they all three cut the corner like that becomes pretty dull pretty quickly. And I think one of the best arguments against any kind of equipment change or anything is like getting the toothpaste back in the tube is very difficult. And it's gone on for

a long enough time that like, you know, it's gonna be hard to change. I think that's honestly a great argument. I'm not like rolling my eyes at that at all. I think it's like, yeah, that probably makes a lot of sense. Well, the best thing you said was, okay, fine. We're not gonna, we're not rolling it back. We're not keeping it where it is.

We're gonna keep progressing forward. We're gonna progress forward until we literally run out of options. And I promise you with this world and this technology, the amount of money you can make on stuff, progressing forward. We're going to progress forward until we literally run out of options. And I promise you with this world and this technology, the amount of money you can make on stuff, you're never going to stop that. So if you look at the, we talked about it, right, is like the percentage of increase every year for however many years. Well, it started going way up when Trackman came out, right? There was a little blip there. And that guy started hitting it farther when you could use Trackman. And then, you know, it's, I think it's leveled off in the past,

you know, a little bit because now it's on the player and not the equipment. Well, it's, it's, it's kind of self-selecting, right? And I'm not, and not, yeah, I don't mean it's literally very general, very general thing. No, no, it makes a lot of sense. But like, now it's, everyone has this information and it's, it's, it's kind of everyone on that same. I think a totally different ball and driver head combo could make the trackman stuff way more interesting. Right? You made a great point about, give me 20 minutes on the range, and I'll get the shaft,

I'll get the launch angle, I'll get all that figured out. In whatever equipment you put on. I haven't really thought of it that way in terms of you know because of the information we have now. Yeah and the technology we have in all the clubs and you know if you compare it to other sports right. Think about we talked about tennis right. Didn't you say they roll the ball back in tennis? I don't I'm not a tennis person but there's something they've done. I believe and that you can crack me if I'm wrong to control the ball, the ball speed on serves or something like that.

Because a game, are they standardized the ball or something? Think about like John Isner. John Isner is 6-10 and he has the best serve and, you know, ever. Well, he's only on, I don't know if he's one of a major, but he was a top 10 player in the world because of his serve, right? That's like guys are top 10 in the world because only of their drive is the same comparison. If you look at tennis back in the old days and everybody's running around and going to the volleys, wood rackets, whatever those strings were, like it was not fast, it was finesse, even hockey. Everybody's big, fast,

strong and smashed against the wall. There's no finesse, there's not so much passing. It's just brute strength. And that is every sports going that way, basketball. If you're not really, really tall and can jump really high, you're highly crazy. There's very few guys that are the ball skill guys anymore. Well, I think you're onto something with the tennis stuff or until you got to like, I see your point on hockey basketball,

like baseball too, the amount of information that's out there, home runs or nothing. But those things are not equipment related. Nearly to the point that golf, the discussion is good and golf and tennis as well in terms of like. Tennis is a little bit. Not as extreme, not as extreme. But like, if let's just say the tennis ball goes 30% faster

than it currently does, whatever you got to do to make that happen. The scale of which you're playing on a tennis court probably doesn't make sense anymore. Does it? Correct. So that's where I'm at with golf. I'm like, I see that. If you go to, where do we stop the stuff?

Yeah. Where do we put, where do we put the emphasis on the player and not the equipment? Yes. I'm in for that. Yeah. I'm in. I'm in for putting all the emphasis on the player and his talents and what, and his expertise with that club and that ball. More so. for putting all the emphasis on the player and his talents and what in his expertise with

that club and that ball more so. The easier equipment is and more forgiving it is, the more that we're going to hit it farther. It's my point. I can swing as hard as I want now. And the chance of it going the fairway are a lot higher. Yeah. And so again, like a different point on this is like, all right, treat this like a choose

your own adventure book. Okay. You are a PGA tour pro walking off a green in 1995 right onto the next T-Box. And you know, you have your equipment there. What would the reasoning be in this choose your own adventure to be like, you know what, we should go 60 yards backwards and hit balls and clubs

that go way further. Right. It's going to end up, let's say it ends up in the same around the same area. The, you know, we had to move a road and we had, you know, so and so I had to spend a million dollars to do this and go backwards. It's going to add time to the route just to cover the same distance, you know, but with, you know, from a different spot. Now do that on repeat in a lot of locations all around the world. What would your reason be for choosing that? That's where the toothpaste and the tube argument

is the best, I think. Like, that's not the current situation, but that you wouldn't end up the way we currently are. And the people that treat it the status quo as just being like where things should be is where I have the biggest issue. Why shouldn't it go further? Let's build more teams for the back and let's send it for them. Right, and that's my point. It's like, when they, it was a double-edged sword,

when the equipment became easier to hit and more forgiving and we've launched farther and you had track man, and people started hitting it really, really far. When people started moving T's back in moving roads, is when it put more emphasis on it. It rewarded the skill more, but it also made golf a little bit less driver wedge, right? So if you keep the T's sane, but my point is, I understand where you're coming from, driver wedge.

Your biggest argument is you don't want driver wedge. You want to see guys hit other shots and hit this and blah, blah, blah. And that's fine, I get that. You can do that with golf course architecture. It's boring to watch guys hit three woods in Iron's Authentie as a fan. They want to see you hit drivers.

You are not the typical golf fan. I know. Okay, everyone knows that. You are the super like one, you know, you're the us of golf as you of the golf fan, right? The average golf fan loves people bombing drivers over trees and over water. And this and that's a great point, okay? Very good one.

So, so then if you use my argument of architecture against your argument of Dr. Wedge, well then that's boring, right? So then you go, you're back to square one. Like you can play Hilton head and make the greens of 15 and got in the rough really, really high. So if guys have a wedge out of the rough, it's, you know, they would rather have an eight out of

it for the fairway while Mark Broding is Strokes game, whatever, well, you don't account for four inch rough and green draw on 15 and green draw on the front edge. Pencil on the front edge. Yeah. I think where that gets messy is where you end up somewhere like wing foot. I know wing foot was long, not short, but it's like it's really narrow. Yeah. Doesn't everyone is going to be in the rough. Well, Well, people forget that Bryson's nine iron is the same length of a six iron.

And the longer the shaft, the faster you can swing it. So he's swinging his nine iron way faster than everybody else is swinging their nine iron. So therefore he can hit his nine iron way farther out of the rough. Yeah. Imagine having a four iron with a nine iron degree loft for most people.

You're gonna hit it a lot. Swing a lot faster. It's gonna come way better out of the rots. I hadn't thought about the speed with the longer shaft. Yeah, it's a lot easier. It's so much easier for him to hit it a lot swing a lot faster. It's going to come way better out of the rots. I hadn't thought about the speed with the longer shape. Yeah, it's a lot easier. It's so much easier for him to hit it out of the rots like that. You put a forearm with a lob wedge. A lob wedge length, it's like a do anything.

It's vice versa. I think that conditions are one to one. You look at Bay Hill and you look at this past Bay Hill and you look at the weekend and the average score is 77. Bay Hill is not long. It's not long. Conditions win hands down on score. And if you could reliably depend on that everywhere, we wouldn't need the conversations.

A driver would be a money we would spend in conditioning for courses would be way more absurd than unrealistic. I agree. You can't make, you know, I always say, like, you can't make a golf course in Detroit and in spring, be run, play fast and firm or something like that. It's not that easy, but that's where it's like British open. It's almost never a driving contest because you're trying to get the ball to stop off the tee and that again, you're probably a great point of like you, I'm not the normal golf

fan that, you know, but I love watching tee shots in the British open a great point of like, I'm not the normal golf fan that, you know, but I love watching t-shirts in the British Open because I'm just like, is it a good start? Creativity, is it going to roll into the pop bunker? Stinger, is that? Is that? And that is. So we're a lot of common ground and I find the discussion fascinating with somebody who

is living it on the tour. Yeah. And to close this conversation up is moving the tease back, isn't the answer because you're just playing more to it and then moving in, you know, it's expensive too, right? And then also rolling the ball back, isn't the answer. And then also making the clubs less forgiving, isn't it? You have to find common ground in all three of these things because like I said, the best part is where we're going to be best place or

and that's what we're trying to do. If that's what we're trying to do as a game, well then it's not broken, right? It's more for the your local golf club and figuring out what they want to do, which I don't think they should care, because 95% of the members it doesn't affect. Two, it's what's the most enjoyable product that we have on TV. That is hitting drivers. For 95% of the people, I know that pains you to say. Yeah.

Why does the media all they talk about with pricing hitting a driver? Yes, it's annoying, but it's because they'll get the most hits on it. Yeah, it yeah, I just if the ratings were blowing it out, I could see it like everyone loves the driver boom and it is I understand. Wow, it's amazing, but it's not like they're just pulling in cash. But I don't think somebody's gonna be like man These guys are into 270 and like hit nice little tight draws with a with this is gonna really make it any different the other way I don't I don't I don't my argument is not that it ratings are gonna soar through the roof when they roll it back

And when very it's a cut seven iron back then. Oh, oh my god. Oh, you see that. Oh, he cut seven iron to a back then. Oh, it's, oh my God, it was such, did you see that? Oh, he just hit it to a five. Like, no. Well, my one thing against that though is like, I don't think like driving it really far translates that great to TV. It's, you can't see what, you can see a track, you know, the line on it, you can see the number on it,

blah, blah, blah. Are you more interested in watching Bryson try to hit it or Bubba try to hit it over the trees on it, blah, blah, blah. Are you more interested in watching Bryson try to hit it, or Bubba try to hit it over the trees on 13th of Augusta? Yes. Okay, I'm not saying that's the perfect example, but it is a great example. It is. Because he could bounce around, he could go find him, see any of his aliens chipping out

through the creek. I would say. That's golf course architecture, making the driver just like that. I would say that's more of the exception to the rules. You hit a three-wood out there, then you try to hit a four iron on the green. You try to hit it over the trees. It's options.

It's cool. You can't do that with every golf course. I know. I know. That is my example. But I went back and watched the 96 masters watching Fowdo and Norman, blah, blah, blah. And watching do it. I was four, I'm in a row. blah blah. And watching dudes play that third time. I was 10, I'm not that much old.

Watching dudes play that whole, and Fowdo takes like three minutes, which is a different subject, to pull his club on his approach into 13, because he has to hit, you know, where he's hitting it from, it's a totally different shot, right? And it's a balance between that whole being really interesting. Like putting more emphasis on the T-shot,

doesn't make it that much more interesting in my mind. If Bryson has a wedge in from 150, which he did at one point, that kind of actually ruins the whole, I think, a little bit, because the point is, if you drive it up, if you bail out right, balls above your feet, poor, alive, you play close to the hazard, you get a better angle,

shorter distance to the whole, blah, blah, blah. That is more interesting. I agree though that it's not like that's going to change golf ratings and all that stuff. And it's not going to change really golf at all except at the highest level. And my point is at the highest level, it doesn't matter what you do, those guys are still going to win. I agree. I for the most part, I agree. I think some it will it will allow guys. I'm not saying the PGA tour. I'm not saying, I mean, I'm 75% of the PGA tour might be different, might be seeing whatever.

But the top 10, the world guys are gonna be the top 10. Like if they move the rim up and basketball or down, LeBron's still gonna be the best player. MJ would still be the best player. You can figure it out. I think someone like like, Web Simpson could be a more highly regarded player if the ball, if it was a different landscape with

technology. You have a better chance at not being a tremendous driver of the ball and being a very, very good PJs or player. Better chance than the current landscape. Yeah, I just, my thing is when you bring the ball back, the guys that hit it longer are still gonna hit it equally percentagefully as far, but they're probably gonna hit it more fairways. Would you say though, the one thing I didn't, I went home that night, I was like, damn, keep kinda owning me on a couple of things.

One thing I meant to say and didn't though was I think there's a difference in what you're gonna pull off the tee. If you know you can get it to within wedge distance, you don't fear being in the rough usually depending on the rough ball ball block. No, no, no, yeah, depending on the conditions. Of course, depending on the conditions, but if you can get it within wedge distance, you're

probably, you know, going to pull driver versus laying back and having eight iron in out of the fairway. You'd rather have the chance of hitting it in the fairway with wedge. Correct. The backup option. Because you still have the chance of hitting it in the rough with the three wood. For sure. Or five wood, whatever. But does that change if your driver is going to hit like I'd say a bad drive is going to put you in a spot where you have seven iron out of the rough. And that is something you cannot hold a particular

green with. No, no, because you bring it back and then your other option is through it or five would have a four iron out of the rough. Right, but if I'm saying if you're restoring the balance and like, all right, this is going to help me hit the fairway, you know, whether it's, you know, wider in that area or I'm not around a dog leg or something like that. I know I can come in from the fairway here and I will have six iron in whatever. And if I hit or let's say five iron and And if I hit a bad drive around the corner and I'm in the rough and I have seven iron in, that's different than saying I have wedge in because a seven iron out of the rough

is gonna be very difficult to hold but I could in theory hold a five iron out of the fairway. Does that make sense? It makes sense and you're perfectly correct. But my thing is if you look at the longest par force, like you look at Oakmont when it was playing like wet and stuff, and guys were, you know, they couldn't get it to the fairway, they couldn't get out of the rough, no matter what, they were still in driver.

Right. Off every hole, because you're never going to give up that chance, because my point is, guys on the PGA tour, they hit their driver equally as straight as their 3 or 5 or what. I just, maybe it's 1%, 2%. Like, it's not that big of a difference. The only reason you're hitting those other clubs is to set yourself up for a different shot,

which has everything to do with the golf course architecture, a Hilton head, Bay Hill, all these places. So to answer your question, I know what you're saying, but guys on the PGA tour are still gonna hit driver because if they do hit it in the fairway and when they're playing well, they will, they're gonna have less clubbing.

Yep. I think I'd be totally cool with that. If the, you know, there was a very clear, a more clear punishment for being in the fairway and rough. Right. Well, you take the fairways at 280 and then you start just going neck and omen or then you put trees up, you build a rough up. That's how you fix the problem without changing the equipment.

I've said that since day one, the architecture stopped. If you move the tees back, we're going to hit more drivers. You move the tees up and you make the fairways tighter. You cut, I mean, look at Pine Valley. There's fairways that stop at 280. Like you, I don't have the option to hit driver. Period. You look at, you look at Hilton head and there's plenty of holes that I lit it like, what's

it number 13? I have, I have to see a map on that one, but you can't, there's no way I could hit driver within 10 yards of the green and I hit four and off that tee every time. Every time there's not a player on tour that hits driver to that green. Why? Because the risk for the reward is not great enough. And that's simply because of the architecture,

not because of the equipment or anything, like we can all hit it straight and far. I'm not saying we're gonna get to the point where it's good, but you can, there's freaking railroad ties around it. It's a bunker, there's trees overhanging everything. It doesn't matter, you're not gonna hit driver. I'm way down, if the argument's more of,

you know, certain sides of holes, certain angles, spul blah blah, due to contours, are, you know, really forcing your hand to make decisions, I can buy that more than just growing rough up, just because I think rough can have opposite effects, you know. Again, it's none of these things on their own makes sense, right? It's like the only thing that makes sense is making it

different for us. It's all I agree. Yeah. If you, but do it through the like if there's if we play 50 events a year, you have 50 golf courses you're probably going to go to you can cut the fairways in a little bit up there. You make them tighter, make them this, you know, narrow in whatever. Like I don't, I for the game of golf itself, it's not, I don't think it's hurting hurtful to bring it back, but I also don't think it's making it better. I, it depends on how you define better. Yeah, I think it better for, for you, the people who watch the PGA tour on TV,

you, the viewer, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. But for the grand scheme of things, like you have a friend really pissed because guys are hitting wedges in his barf eyes. Well, you know, like, they could plant a freaking tree in the middle of the fairway somewhere for guys to do that.

And then the problem's gone. It's gone. Yeah, I, I, I, I, I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's to fix. I'm just saying like, we have this massive conversation about rolling the ball back. It's like rolling the ball back is the most uneducated way to say you don't like, not you,

it's just the person doesn't like guys hitting it far on TV. Not, I wouldn't, of course, I'm assuming you don't mean that as literal as the sentence is. No, I know that. It would be a, it's not that we don't like seeing guys hit it far. It just, we would rather that be a more difficult task. Yes. And more special way to club. If there's, don't make it go shorter, make them less.

If there's eight home runs in an inning, that is not as cool as one huge, timely home run with the prop with a different equipment set. And that yeah, I agree. Make it in the if you gave them aluminum bats. And that's bomb in the amount of the park that would stop me and interested. But you just I'm saying, so don't make them go shorter. I'm saying make him less forgiving because it becomes more of a skill to hit it far than it just does brute strength. We agree to disagree. No, I'm kidding. I know you agreed to agree there. All right. I've taken a lot of your time, but I have to ask about Crunchy Pete. We haven't covered any of that. You got to, you got to tell us about your caddy. When we played, I was, I was surprised how, I don't want to say how normal he was, but he was just a tremendous

delight of a guy. I feel like somebody with a nickname crunchy Pete, I thought he was going to be way more eccentric. I know you've got some, I'm sure, some eccentric story. Oh yeah, I mean his, he, that's what makes him so great is you can stick him in any room and he's going to excel. Yes. He can talk to anybody. He's kind. He's you know, he's very like The probably one of the most common sense smart people I know just because of like his life his lifestyle Like it's just it's very just everything so simple that like I'm the person's gonna overthink everything three times over And he's just gonna be like man just hit it right here like oh well duh. Why did I think of that? Well because you thought about everything else at first

So that's what makes Pete great is he's very personable. He's he can relate to anyone. And his he's experienced more in his life than most people will experience in 10 lifetimes by the choice of freedom. And it's just he just he he's coming on this fishing trip with us this weekend. And it took me a month to get him to commit. And he would have committed the day before or rejected the day before because tomorrow is that far away for him. Everything is whatever is going on right that he's the most present guy

I've ever met. You know, we're always thinking about the future and what could happen, what might happen, this could happen, we gotta prepare for this. There's nothing going on in his world other than what's happening right then and right there. And it is so cool. And that's why people like him so much is to be around somebody like that. That's interesting.

As you're saying, he's the most present person. I'm like, dude, I am not present ever. No, me either. I mean, like us having this conversation and these people, their poor heads are spinning and running off of these guys. I mean, like us having this conversation and these people, their poor heads are spinning and they're like, off of these guys. I mean, just to be normal, you know. Pete's the most normal present person we know.

Well, we have a lot that we may have to bump for a future pug. So I could probably talk to you in a for an hour about sweetens cove. I know you're a huge car guy as well. We can, those are easy though. Sweetens cove is my place. I got very, very fortunate to be from Chattanooga. So it is a hometown for me.

I'd played it before it was anything. You were at Sequach Valley or? No, I was Sweet and Skov, but it was like 2013 or 2014 before it was anything. It was cool in Chattanooga and that was it. And then right after I won the Honda, I get a phone call from the man himself, saying, I want you to be a part of this, and I mean, of course you can't say no to that guy. I mean, come on.

And so now I've just been very fortunate to meet so many cool people, being part of that such an organic place is really kind of a special. And then, you guys are hopping on train too, baby, let's just keep it rolling. I know. It's a really cool thing's going on down there. And, uh, yeah, we've, we've, of course, got the house up there. And it's something that I think we envisioned using it for a lot more trips

than we have, but I guess been booked up, man, and it's, uh, it's a very cool, like ski and ski out thing. And it's, I, I love being whatever that weird community is up there. I love being a part of it was funny because being in golf and being part of a golf course, you know, you'd feel like I was like very involved in this now. I mean, I am like the hundredth coolest person in this club. So like I just kind of keep my head down like, yeah, you know, I'm part of Sweden's a little tiny portion here and there a little bit. But I went to the founder's guess, I guess they called it a couple weeks ago.

And I mean, it was the coolest group of people that you would net like, there was airplanes flying to Augusta National for like the opening night from a nine hole golf course in South Pittsburgh. And you're like, what is, I'll never forget the guys on the tarmac. We were flying out and they're like, they're like, what's going on? Like, what's all this coffee? You know, because they have no idea who we are, because, you know, there's paint manning,

and e-lab manning, all these people all having all these stuff. And they're just in awe. And they're like, it's because of a nine hole course in South Pittsburgh, Tennessee, all these people are here. Yes. And it's why it's because of that cool. It really is.

No, that's very well said. So, all right I'm gonna get out of your house because I've been here for a long a long time But love what you don't with the steakhouse vibe in here here in the the bonus room here in the kitchen and Thank you for the time and the conversation and best of luck next year. Can we see what happens? Perfect. Thanks, buddy. Cheers I'd like to be the right club today I'm going to be the right club today. Yes!

That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Expect anything different.