No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 389: Lisa Cornwell

Episode Date: January 4, 2021

Lisa Cornwell's seven year tenure at the Golf Channel recently came to an end. She has spoken out on social media about how she was treated there, and now joins the podcast to tell her story.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yeah. That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Better than most! Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang Up Podcast, Sully here today's podcast features and interview with Lisa Cornwell, formerly of the golf channel Lisa's made several tweets since her employment ended at Golf Channel ledging mistreatment while being employed

there. Us here at No-Lang Up, we followed along as golf channels made serious changes over the past year or so. And we often comment a lot on telecast and how golf is presented to fans and found this to be a pertinent story for our listeners. Joining Lisa on the podcast is her attorney, Tom Mars. Tom doesn't speak until late in the interview when Lisa asks him to speak specifically on a few legal matters within the case.

And you'll hear those answers on the back half of this episode. We'd of course like to note that this is one side of the story. This is Lisa's side and considering the nature of the statements made by Lisa and Tom. We reached out to Golf Channel and offered them the opportunity to comment. They declined to comment under statements based on how I summarized them in email. And lastly, before we do get going, I'm sure you saw the news today. One of the worst kept secrets in golf is that John Rom is joining the

Callaway Golf Professional staff. Number two ranked player in the world. He will officially make his Callaway staff debut this week at the Century tournament champions with Callaway prototype woods, prototype irons, jaws forged wedges, and a chrome soft X golf ball in his bag. Neel and I are, I don't know why this didn't make the press release, but Neel and I are getting ready to play a tournament right now with the same exact golf ball.

Ron actually used Callaway and Odyssey equipment at Arizona State where he won 11 tournaments while playing for head coach Tim Michelson. Second most wins in school history behind fellow Calaway staffer Phil Michelson. Ram says I have a huge amount of confidence with my new clubs, especially the golf ball, which has really impressed me during the testing process. So join us in welcoming John Ram to the Calaway Golf team. And for more information, you can go to calaway golf.com slash john dash. Ram.

That's calaway golf.com slash john dash. Ram without any further delay, let's get to our interview with Lisa Cornwell. All right, we've got a lot to chat about today, Lisa. I want to know first though, super tough question, of course. We got to hear about your background and golf, and how you ended up at the golf channel. Well, first of all, Chris, thanks for having me. You guys have done a great thing in golf, different stuff,

which I think everybody appreciates. My background, I mean, it's how long do you have? I keep getting older, so the story keeps getting longer. I started playing golf at I was five. And like so many people just grew up at a little club that in Fayette, the Larkinson, and fell in love with a game. I mean, you know, I would get there early in the morning and stay until after the sunset put the headlights on on the car and sit there and put.

Unfortunately, it didn't make me a great putter, but, you know, we did everything that we could. I grew up playing at AJGA. So many of those people are still my really close friends. And I've seen a lot of my friends that I grew up playing with have great success, which has been really cool. And it's interesting, I've always been a sports fan, but I got to this point where I got really burned out and honestly just hated the game, which I never thought would happen from where know, from where I was, especially in my mid to late teens.

But there was something about, you know, I was trying, after I'd always wanted to be professional golfer and trying to figure out what in the world I wanted to do with my life after I knew that golf was gone because that love wasn't there anymore. I always kind of equate it with going through a divorce in a weird way. I went through a divorce when I was 18 years old, but I was a pre-law major. My sister and my dad were in sales, my mom's in the medical field, and I have absolutely no idea what I want to do in my life.

So I dabble around with things and to make long story short, I had friends who worked in a local TV station in Lodera, Arkansas. And I went into that environment and just the camaraderie and the time crunch and the pressure and the adrenaline. All that reminded me of playing sports. And I thought, I want to do this. So I've already gotten my degree in pre-law, went back and got a minor of our concern.

Journalism, my family thought I was crazy because I took a $40,000 pay cut. I mean, I'm in my late 20s and I got a Columbus, Mississippi, making $18,000 to start this crazy career in sports. And I got there in Knoxville, Tennessee, Cincinnati, Ohio. The big 10-network starts. And I'm in close proximity with them for many, many years. Not one of my many, that sounds crazy. I was five years, so it wasn't many years. And then all of a sudden, we've backed to Little Rock and got back into college football

and doing some things and got my love for golf back. And I never thought I'd work at the golf channel. I never wanted to. I hated the game that much. So it was just so disinterested in it. And I finally hired an agent. And he said, this job's open. I started playing a lot of golf again. And I was ready. And it just happened. And the timing worked out really well. Well, I wanted to butt in about five different, different times there. You were moving too fast on to the TV stuff. And now I want to hear more about this golf and burnout thing. That's interesting perspective. I feel like I hear the words burnout a lot when it comes to junior players, top junior players. If I may say you

are a little a little humble about, you know, your accomplishments in the game of golf at a young age, but burnout is not an uncommon thing. I guess to say, say hated the game, though, I feel like it's a bit something that people aren't willing to say. But I'm curious as to if you have any kind of looking back at it, what cause burnout, you know, you hear a lot about people recommending young junior players play other sports and what not to help encourage that not to happen. But how did you end up hating the game of golf? You know, it's very crisp because the weird things for me in this job and you know because

you guys are out there and you get to meet a lot of these people that up. So I grew up idolizing Nancy Lopez. I mean Nancy Lopez was my childhood hero. In fact, this is probably a security breach that if you go to a lot of my private things on log-ins and it's like one of those questions like it was your childhood hero, I always laughed as mine's Nancy Lopez. But as I started getting better and the athletic director at Arkansas, we had a really great relationship.

A lot of people now in front of the royals. He was a good friend. He was a mentor. He loved the game. I probably more than he loved the ball. And he helped connect me with David Lebeder. I think at the time I was top 10 in the country in Virginia girls. And it's funny because I still have this conversation with David. You know, a lot of people want to blame Lebeder. They use that Lebeder's name, which I think is totally the ass, but I want to blame David on burning me out. I mean, David actually got me to play the best golf

that I ever did in my life. And it wasn't that. It was just, there was some, I don't, you know, I can't put my finger on it. It wasn't because of over-practicing at tiger. He practice look at the ball He practiced look at otter cut. They put everybody practices a lot, right? So It just it just wasn't meant to be I think it just Certain people have that ability to push through the things that they need to take them to that next level

And I just didn't have it. And I don't know if it was a lack of focus and concentration on short game. I mean, that's what I painted a lot because I was a good ball striker. I was a decent putter, but if you need me to see your partner and a scramble to get up and down, go pick anybody else in the world other than me. And I just, I think that because I wasn't able to get over this certain hurdle, my frustration turned into this. I'm just this ultimate competitor and I could not keep up with the people who I was keeping

up with at one point. And it just, I think, led to a downward spiral and I just didn't, I didn't want to play. By the time I got to college. Well, and it's something I see too with some of my buddies that played in college, you know, transitioning into real-life jobs where you aren't playing nearly as much and your game is no matter what you do, is going to be way worse than it was at your peak.

How do you, at that point, get enjoyment out of the game is something I see a lot of people struggle with. And I think eventually they kind of power through it, but you kind of maybe do need some time to step away from the game And I'm wondering if that kind of stepping away, you know coinciding with your return to golf with the golf channel By the time you got there you were you able to fall back in love with it at all? 100% and It will always be a love-hate relationship. I think, with me. Anybody who's played a ton of competitive golf, that sort of tweaker and grinder always comes back out of you. And so, I mean, I

catch myself even now, but I haven't picked up a club because I have a little bit of an elbow injury, but I haven't picked up a club in, you know, a couple months. But the minute that I go to the range, the first day I won't do it, but the second day I do it, and I start taking videos, and then I start analyzing, and then you just overthink everything, rather than just go out and play. It doesn't matter. Nobody cares what I shoot, right?

Nobody cares what kind of shot that I hit or that I can't keep it in bounds and orn's tree, which by the way, of course I joined the most difficult golf course in Florida in terms of the OB stakes from left to right. But yeah, I think it's will I ever just be relaxed and be okay with going out there and shooting 80 thought. No, I mean, I'm still, you know, I put on Amazon buying, you know,

training aids, it's for, and at some point I'm like, this is so ridiculous. You know, I went from nodding along to like, I just did the same exact thing. I'm buying training aids. I'm filming my swing in the garage. You are like, you are describing me to a T my last few months, to a T.

What it's, we're addicted. It's's just the game it gets in your head it's so it's why I joke that I drink a lot of Johnny Walker you know we get us to ride well what okay so now you're transitioning into your job at the golf channel for people that may not be familiar with it what what was your your your your the details of your job with golf channel? Well, I noticed the past tense and yeah, it is past tense as a few days ago. It started out mainly I hosted golf central on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday with primarily with Trip Island Howard, who's one of my dearest friends in the world, 11 like a brother, Tim Reza-Poor. And then I would, in the beginning, go to the LPGN majors.

And that was it. And then it slowly sort of, I stayed on the Monday through Wednesday Golf Central, but then I started getting out and doing more PGA tour events, which was great. You know, that was something that I wanted to do. But then doing the golf channel, the swing shows, the getting into the instructional part of it. I did it. Ironically Nancy Lopez, I'll never forget the first time that she texted me.

And I was like a kid in the candy store. I'm like, oh my gosh, I screenshot it. Like I looked like that really. I did. That's how much she meant to me then and still means to me now, but to be able to do that, because I mean at the end of the day, I'm just a golf geek, I'm a swing geek.

I'm, it's, you know, and I really have to be careful or had to be careful, you know, not to get too much into that and to remember that I'm a host, not an analyst, I'm a reporter, not somebody out there, you know, like a novel, I'm talking about these golf course, you know, but sometimes I get a little carried away and the golf geek comes out of me. But yeah, I mean, it was reporter host and occasionally instructional.

I want to talk about some of the highlights of your time at golf channel, and specifically in just in reading and stuff, hearing about your affinity, one, for Nancy Lopez, to someone like Nick Fowdo as well. I guess, what were some of the highlights of this job in terms of things you've gotten to do and the things that you look back on the most fondly? I mean, there are a lot. Being an outside observer and a little girl who loved the game so much and wanting to be like these people.

That's all that I dreamed about when I was a kid. Not to be talking about golf, but to be playing it. So, you know, to go to a dinner and sit, as you mentioned next to Nick Fowldo, who after Nancy Lopez, when I started taking lessons from Lebeder, Nick was in his prime and he was taking lessons from Lebedeer, Nick was in his prime and he was taking lessons from Lebedeer. And Nick Price, who I still say is the best iron player I've ever seen in person, to, you know, James Stevenson was taken from Lebedeer. David Frost, I mean, David would, you know, this was back when Lebedeer had a trailer

at Lake Nona. He didn't even have a full complex because he was just getting known in the golf world. And, you know, to really sort of dive into that world and get to know those people who you idolize for so long and to be able to pick their brains. I mean, a funny story, and I love Curtis Strange now, but we were in a, he was working the CMD group to her championship, I believe, for ESPN. And we had, golf channel had the early coverage, ESPN had the later coverage, and I'm in a trailer with Curtis.

And my only background with Curtis Strange was when I was, I think, 13 years old in Memphis, and he was on the putting green, played horribly that day. I didn't know, you know, he was frustrated. I asked him for an autograph, and he said on the putting green played horribly that day. I didn't know, you know, he was frustrated. I asked him for an autograph and he said, and he said, no. And I joked with him and the trailer, I said, you know, you're the only person I've ever asked for an autograph and they said, no.

And he asked me that day if I wanted it. And I said, yes. I said, yeah, you know, maybe autograph, give it to me. And it's just stories like that, you know. I mean, just these people you look up to and admire so much and then just being able to talk off with them. Yeah, you know, I just didn't see you're, I think your Twitter picture is you chatting, laughing it up with Tiger Woods is the things you get to do, you know, in this, in this industry can be, can be kind of shocking. Well, I want to say this because I, you know, Tyga and I grew up and we were really good friends. I loved his dad.

I loved Colonel Woods and I'm so proud of him. I mean, I'm glad that that photo is on there because you know, it shows us laughing. But I just want to say this out loud. Even during Tigers, the most serious days and those things were going on to to watch where he is now, from what he went through, publicly having to deal with everything,

and owning it, and becoming a better person. To this day, he's one of the people, if you gave me a list of people in the world that I'm the most proud of, he would be top five on that list. And that photo always takes me back to our childhood because it's just two friends you know just sitting there laughing and I'm so happy for

where he is. I'd like to think that I'm usually very well prepared for these things but I had no idea you guys were childhood friends I need to think I think I need to hear more about the origination of that. Well I'll tell you this in a story and and Tiger and I were laughing about it a year or so ago. And it was because of the AJGA, we played on the Canon Cup, and quite a lot of these team events, but Tiger and I would play a lot of practice around together. And a lot of times we would get in late, and one of the of the memories best memories my dad and I'm home in Arkansas and my parents health I still remember the skinny

kid wearing these yellow walkman you know back in the day and drinking diet Dr. Pepper but we were at the Woodland Texas and we played a nine-hole practice around together it was late everybody else practiced and we're on the range and we're sitting there hitting balls, and all of a sudden I feel the stump on my back. And I went back in Colonel Woods is there, and just sitting in his little fold-out chair that he always had.

So I hit another shot and tiger hit the shot, and I feel the stump again. And I went back at Colonel Woods, and he's just kind of looking at me and you did not and i would not want to get in a staring contest with her words so finally i try to whisper to tiger i said i think your dad's

burling pine cones at me and he looked back at his dad and he goes yeah i probably doesn't like how you practice things so i just like i went back to curtlene Woods and I was like, what am I doing wrong? And he was right. He thought that I was hitting balls way too fast. And so he was trying to get every shot to matter and have this long talk with me. He's like, watch how he does this.

He's like, I have to teach all you kids how to do it. But he was great. And just memories like that that are forever engrained in you. To me, it'll just always be a kid. Well, no, I think we may be part two of this podcast might have to be all your, all your Tiger Woods stories that you could, that you can tell us a quick break here to remind you that, yeah, you probably don't even need to remind it on this that this weekend is the first golf tournament of the new year. And there's no better place to get in on the action

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to get a shot at doubling their money for a limited time only at D King Sportsbook must be 21 or older New Jersey Indiana or Pennsylvania only restrictions apply see draft Kings dot com such sportsbook for details gambling problem called 1800 gambler or an Indiana 1809 with it. Let's get back to Lisa Cornwall. I want to kind of go through the timeline You know of some of some recent events starting kind of going backwards a little bit and knowing you were there at Golfchannel while this was happening.

But when did you first hear about Golfchannel moving its operations to Stanford? What was that process like within the office? When it was announced, was it a surprise? Was it something that was rumored for a long period of time? I'm wondering if you can kind of take us there. Well, to be honest, Chris, that was actually during a time where I was in a transition period with Gulf Channel and this kind of goes to a little bit of what I tweeted about and a lot of things that I couldn't say because of contractual operations.

I found out last September, so September of 2019 that they were moving me from full time to just freelance and there were no offers for studio dates. So I went from being a full time employee who worked called Central Instructional Show, reporting all of those things to the gave me a contract for 10 weeks of work and that was it. So my last time in studio was November of 2019 in terms of being a full-time employee. So I say that to say that I was not privy to what the full-time staff was being told in terms of moving Operations what was going on all of those in-house meetings that they had I was not a part of

So you had just recently tweeted that January 1st is your first day not in contract with the golf channel was that Were you expecting your contract to be over at the end of 2020 or when did you know that that was going to be the end of your contract? Oh, I knew it was over Yeah, I knew it was over. I mean, the timeline of events, I knew, I mean, even though they didn't tell me until very late, but yeah, I knew that I knew from what had happened that I was done December 31, 2020. And when you say because of what have happened, what happened? What is what happened?

Well, how much time do you have on your podcast? Literally unlimited time. Oh, that's right. I love pung calls. Well, okay, I just want to say these two things first. The first thing is that, you know, I put out that tweet on January 1st, which was just a few days ago or a couple days ago. You know how it is when you put out a tweet. There are always back lashes or whatever.

First thing I want to say is that what I went through, and obviously I made it a female issue, a woman issue, is nothing compared to what dozens and dozens of women at that network have faced over the years. That's first and foremost to me because I think it's really important because I've had several people reach out to me on the stories. This isn't about being a victim. And I say that to say that the second part of what I want to say was the January 1st tweet on my part was extremely calculated because I knew that I could finally speak in terms of my employment,

anything that had happened legally and we'll get into that. But I was not able, per-bought channels request, the HR person, Julie Lust, who I dealt with there, who I went round and round on some issues with, that I was forbidding from specifically talking about the Mizzino incident, which is one of the final straws in this whole deal, which ended up being a really, really big thing for my case, my attorney, but those are the first two things that I want to say. So like any job, you go through things, right? Unfortunately, you're in corporate America, things happen.

You know, you talk to people and they face things. But I guess my first instance, when, go back to the NCAAs were in Eugene, Oregon, 2016, the head of Bell Central, we're having a big dinner. And I'm one of those people, anybody who knows me, and I'm sure people who watch me on Twitter, I am outspoken. I'm a fighter. I don't try to do it in a crazy, gun-slinging type of way, but I'm not afraid to speak up. I always have been that way that Tyler was raised, you know, in defense of myself or in defense of any sort of injustice.

And the person leading that dinner, and there are 15 people there, and, you know, he's the head of golf central. We have a new analyst who had had some anxiety issues on here, and he's basically making fun of them. And I stood up, I mean, he's a friend of mine. I said, you know, what are we doing? This is, we don't do this. This is not who we are.

This was a big issue, and it was hard hard for him and we're not going to sit here and make fun of it. You know, I've been through it. Anybody who's been through anything on air where you've had some type of anxiety or something that's bothered you, it's debilitating, it's awful. And I can speak from personal experience over the years. It just happens. It's part of, And I can speak from personal experience over the years. It just happens. It's part of, you know, you get on the first tee and you're nervous. I mean, it affects some people differently. So that was the first thing that happened.

But when things started really on this downhill spiral for me was August of 2018. I'll never forget it. I was filling in. I wasn't even supposed to be working on the weekend. I was filling in for another anchor who he had to do something for. I don't remember if he was sick or whatever. And I was working with Shambley. And Shambley is never liked me from day one. I don't know what it is. I'm not going to get into that, but it's always been about. Well, we're doing a live-buff central, and there's some sort of graphic that comes up, and I'll be honest. Like, it was my mistake on here.

It didn't register with me. I hadn't seen it. There wasn't clarity, and I think it was something that he wanted in there, and so it was my job to set them up, but the number is just in my head to not calculate. And so usually when it happens, you know, like Terp's a great example. You lay out, you don't understand that your analyst picks up, especially if it's his or her graphic that they want on there and they just talk through it. He started waving his arms and doing all this and not just stuff. And so I leave the show, we get through the show, you know, you won't look at me. It's just extremely awkward. And I call the person who is head of the

newsroom, I guess. I don't know. And this is where, you know, my attorney can do a really good job of jumping in and explaining this because the way that the hierarchy system started to work at both channels really shifted. So Molly Solomon, the executive director, her executive producer, excuse me, hired me. And after years of working in sports television, it's like, I'm going to work for this woman. This is awesome. This is going to be great. And it was great until it wasn't.

And by that, I mean her husband, Jeff Russell, who was the head of the editorial portion of golf channel, rangolfchannel.com. That was his thing. When the head of the newsroom operation was dismissed and removed, they brought him to oversee it. So all of a sudden, I'm reporting to her husband and they create this position or title, so he doesn't have to report to her, that he reports directly to the president.

So here's the problem with that. You upset him, you upset her, where it would not work like that in a normal corporation. If I, if I previously, it upset my boss, she, and it had happened, some things had happened. She wouldn't have taught, you know, she wouldn't have, she would have approached me and said, what's the deal? What's, what's the issue here? But that no longer was on the table. So I have this issue with with Brando. I got

her husband not knowing that that they are friends. I've later find out because people are, you know, telling me to be careful, but there is a clear timeline in terms of, and what, this is all important when it, you know, especially when you're talking about stuff legally, you can't just start shooting at the hip, right? You have to make sure all of this stuff matches up. There is a clear timeline from August 18th, and I'm talking about 18th being 2018, to where things started to shift.

So I go to him about Brandyl, and I called him out to the show, and I mean, I was livid, and I told him, I said, look, I am pissed off. You have to fix this. I am tired of working in this environment with this man who just treats me like I shouldn't even be there. And so he said, OK, look, Lisa, I'll look into it. Let me just make some calls.

I know you're mad. I'll get back with you. Thank you. Thank you look, I'll look into it. Let me just make some calls. I know you're mad. I'll get back with you. Thank you. Thank you. So hang up. I didn't hear anything from them about the subject until December of 2018. So again, this happened in August of 2018. December 2018.

I get a scheduling email. Okay? I get a scheduling email, okay? Nobody's talked to me about anything in terms of what I'm doing in 2019. And by, oh, by the way, all of my reviews at Golf Channel have been nothing but positives. I mean, there are always things to work on. They want me to look at my energy level and everything that I agree with. I mean, you know, you always have things that you can work on. I do this day, you always try to get better, right? That's part of it.

But I get this email showing my assignments for 2019. Now I want you to keep in mind that 2019, the Women's NCAA Championships and the Ben's NCAA Championships are being held at Arkansas. So why is that important? Well, I'm from Arkansas. They're being held in Fayetteville, Arkansas, at the University. For the first time ever, okay, I played college golf at Arkansas. I'm a four-time state champion.

I was the first player in program history. They wrote me a letter when I was away because I had to go away because Arkansas didn't have a program asking me if I would come back because they were going to start a program. I sat on the hiring process for the coaches. I was fully involved. the land vault, but it was that foundation that was there and it's something to this day that still means the world to me and always will. And so it was a big deal when the university and Johnny Tyson called me and said, hey, we want to get this here. I read a letter on behalf of the university and the blessings to get it there. I mean, I'm sure they had a lot of people write letters, but I wanted it there.

I'd always hosted the Women's Institute of Lays since I had been at Golf Channel. I get a scheduling email that I would not be the host that year at Arkansas that I had been demoted to a reporter and they didn't even have the guts to tell me. And do you think that's directly correlated with the incident from the prior year? 100 percent. How did you justify it?

All my NCAA feedback have been great. I mean, the college coaches convention every year at Las Vegas, they had tried to get me to speak there for three years. I'd always had conflicts, but not only did they take me off of hosting a Women's NCAA championship. They took me off of hosting a Women's NCAA championship in my hometown at my alma mater where I started the program. And oh, by the way, two weeks ago, had just been notified that I was being inducted into

the Arkansas Golf Hall of Fame. And I was livid. I mean, even to this day telling you this story makes my blood boil. Who could do that? And so I immediately, being the person I am, storm into Mark Summers office, who sent out that ridiculous email. And I mean, I lay into him because this was his gotcha moment. He had had a couple instances.

He tried to pull me off a CME, the LPGA Tour of Championship, the year prior. Molly put me back on. Every time he tried to do something to take me down, it got challenged and reversed. Well, this was his gotcha moment. You know why? Because he now had Molly's husband on my side for what happened with Brando and then Jeff after I left Mark's office thinking I could go to Jeff and have him reverse this because this was ridiculous. The minute that I brought it up he said and I'll never forget it. He said, just wait here. He started pointing his finger and yelling at me.

You just wait here for a minute. Go and get some or bring some into the office. And he said, you know what, this whole thing with Shambley, you know, he started laying in to me about Shambley how he talked to the producers and it wasn't Brandle's fault. Brandle just wanted the shows to be good or whatever. In the meantime, all I care about are these, I'm over this Brandle thing. I don't care about it. But he doesn't even want to talk about, he wants to lecture me on how I mishandle that

and it wasn't Brandle's fault. This was my deal. And then starts going in today don't assign people to tournament search or to reporting duties based on where they're from. I said, where I'm from. What are you talking about? This is, it's not about where I'm from. It's number one, I'm a woman covering a women's NCAA

championship. I'm the only host you have who even played college golf, and all my reviews have been great. So I knew then, I'll just say this, and I'm sure you want to interject because I keep going on and my blood's flowing too. I mean, I'll never forget having to make that phone call to my parents and the first thing my dad said to me,

and he was right, and your parents say something, and they're making it there. And he did. He said, I want you to listen to me. You need to start looking for another job because they're trying to push you out. And they were. I mean, my assignments from that point were less and less and less. You know, I went from covering WGC events on the PGA tour to covering much smaller events. And that was the beginning.

I mean, you know, I knew at that point, I knew at that point what was going on. So if we can back up just to understand the incident, you know, it sounds like there was that you, you're of the belief that Brandel had issues to you leading up to this moment, but the incident that you're referring to that kind of led you to speaking up was that you kind of maybe fumbled your way through a graphic or didn't introduce it properly and that he was making kind of frustrated gestures on the air and that kind of was the I guess the the straw that broke the camel's back or I just can you back up and just go over that incident if you don't mind. Yeah, no you're right and I will say it was just one of those moments on blind tv where um You're right, and I will say it was just one of those moments on live TV where,

yeah, I was kind of fumbling over this graphic and just didn't register. I can't remember some sort of struck-scaned graphic that I don't know the comparisons and I don't know if he had worked it out with the producers. I don't know if it didn't. If it, I know it wasn't in the rundown. I didn't see anything on it, but regardless, yeah, I mean, I didn't handle it great on live TV, but again, sometimes when that happens, you just lay out and look like if I had done that with Trip, I would have just got talking and he would have looked at it and realized, okay, this is my graphic that I requested.

Let me just get through this and then I would have picked back up. But Brando, given our relationship, just started waving his hands in the air. Like I'm done with you. I can't believe that you're doing this. I'm just screwing everything up. And he screwed something up on purpose. Nobody, especially when you're on live TV, you don't want to look or sound like an idiot.

You want to get it right. We all want to get it right. Everybody, you know, you're on live TV, you don't want to look or sound like an idiot. You want to get it right. We all want to get it right. Everybody, you know, you doing this podcast, maybe doing this podcast. We want to do the best job that we can. And so rather than just, you know, helping out your teammate, they just start waving his arms like a, you know, a 12-year-old child. It was about, you know about the fourth or fifth incident that I had had with him.

And I was just, I was over it. I know he has a big name and golf, that's fine. But I don't care. I care about how you treat me. I care about how you treat the person next to you. I care about how you treat the people doing your makeup. Just be a good person. next year, I care about how you treat the people doing your makeup. Just be a good person, you know?

Well, another story that you had tweeted something, I believe, is to Brittany Linscomb talking about an incident that happened at the A&A and you mentioned Mizuno earlier. I'm wondering if you could back up and kind of tell us that story because that seems to be from what I gather pretty integral to the position that you currently hold in terms of wanting to speak out about things that have happened to you during your employment at golf channel. Yeah, so kind of time in what I was talking about earlier, when that happened with the scheduling email in December of 2018 and knowing what was going on and being the person I am, I mean, I'm lucky my cousin Allison is a, she's tax attorney in Little Rock.

And one of the smartest people I've ever met, but she's also one of my best friends. And after calling my parents, I called her. And like she had known about these instances of Brando before, and thankfully she's smart enough, and I'm not smart when it comes to that, she said, Lisa Lisa start documenting everything. So I started documenting things back in 2016 just to make sure to cover my bases because

I knew the power that he had at the network. And I told Alice and I said this is an issue. She said yeah, this is a big issue now because of what they're obviously trying to do in terms of taking you off the women's NCAA. So after many phone calls and late nights, she finally connected me through her law firm who had a connection with Tom Moore. Now, I didn't know Tom at the time, but once I started learning more about and Tom's. Now, I didn't know Tom at the time, but once I started learning more about

and Tom's my attorney, once I started learning more about Tom's background, I knew that he would be the perfect fit. They were all telling me, at least, that if he will talk to you, whatever you're doing, stop. And literally the first conversation I had with Tom, I think I was on a golf course and ran, you know, got off the golf course immediately, but I say all that to say that, you know, this goes back a long time and Tom's background not just as being lead general counsel. Walmart had a HR at Walmart. I mean, you're talking about a man who's got a lot of things.

He's had the Arkansas State Police and I'm a huge college football fan and an SEC fan and he was the attorney who represented Houston nut when all of that happened at Ole Miss and the downfall of Q3s and that entire program. Tom Morris was the person who did that. And so I was very familiar with this story. And so the fact that he was even talking to me was incredible. But through Tom's guidance and hearing countless details about these stories and this timeline, this very clear timeline of events that had happened, he put together everything in last March, we filed a complaint with the EESC. And, you know, these things take time, especially with COVID, and it was just continuing

together information because unfortunately things continued to happen, which surprised every attorney involved in that. And I mean, from Tom to my cousin, he was privy to all of this that was going on. Kibetsi Murray, who was involved in it, as well being an employment attorney. And so we submit our information, and I'm sure Tom will go into detail about with you about when they submitted their response. And Tom told me, he's like, least, this is, I don't know if I want you to read it, because I'm within at your reviews and your reviews are great, but basically they're saying they've demoted you because of budget, but then they go on to just assault you as an on-air personality

for the network. He was like, I don't even know how according to them, you have a job. So I, he can explain more of that, but I'll get to what happened in September, and it's important to know about this EEOC claim that had been filed long before. So we had our response to their response that was due in mid-September. Well, I got the A&A inspiration. It's one of, first of all, one of my favorite tournaments as a child to watch. But in terms of my reporting duties, I mean, everybody who knows me knows my passion about the LPTA tour and trying to get them more coverage and get their players out there in front of the camera more.

And it's just been one of my biggest passions since I've been at Galtchannel. Well, I'm out there. And it's kind of sad for me, honestly, Chris, because I know it's my last time. I haven't officially been told that. But two plus two equals four. I know that it's my last time. I haven't officially been told that, but you know, two plus two equals four. I know that it's my last time. And a week prior, I had gotten information

and it's a player that I know. She lives in Orlando. So any player who lives in Orlando and you see it different courses or you'reround, you just get to know them. And her swing instructor, Tony Ziegler, has also given me probably 15 to 20 lessons. I love Tony. Tony's been around the LPGA tour. PGA tour evolved forever. Great guy. So Janet, I find out a week earlier, or two weeks earlier, I'm sorry, I think it was 11 days before the

start of A&A. Her spin numbers were off and she was working with Tony and with Para Fisher, a club builder out at Mariette Grand Vista. They noticed when they were changing shafts, they couldn't get her spin numbers where they wanted to, they were still too high, but when she went to these casino clubs, they were able to slowly taper them down. So they found this nip on shaft, this casino head combo that was perfect.

And so they call, Paris or Tony, excuse me, gets the number for the casino to wrap, they make a call together collectively. The three of them in the small, anybody who's ever been in that little room at Marriott Grand Vista, they did great work, but it's a small room. They make a call and Paris is the one leading the charge. Saying the same thing about spend numbers that I just told you to the tour rep.

And he said, look, I don't have all the components to get these built in time to turn around. I'm sorry, I can't help you. And so, Paris said, OK, what about if you just send us the heads? We can call NIP on, we can get the shafts, just send us the heads, and I can get them built. Now, they wanted the tour heads, because the tour heads are just better than what you buy retail and they're easier to build up suspects and all of those things.

So he said, I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to help you. Now I don't know, I don't think, I'm not sure if it was an issue of, he didn't have them with him or he didn't want to call Atlanta and have them overnight the heads to her. So Peris said, we will pay for them to be overnight and just overnight as the heads will pay for the overnighting she'll be happy to pay for the heads if you want he finally last time said i'm sorry man i i just can't help you toady at this point was pissed off he was like hang up to hang up he calls the local

and one what on turkey life road in orlando And Tony's told me the story. He calls them, buys a set of clubs off the rack, and takes them to Paris, nip on overnight to Chasse, and Paris builds the clubs out for her plenty of time. I mean, she's got a week and a half. All she wants me to put them in the bag and make sure that everything plain lies is good.

So me, you know, being the person I am, of course, I'm watching, I'm out there Thursday, and Janet is in the lead at the A&A Inspiration. And so what do I think of? First thing, I think of these Mizino irons that are in her bag that she just bought at the Edwin Watts, because they couldn't find a way to get them to her. And she dropped back a couple shots. I think she bogged her third to last hole and then bogged her final hole. But she was still two shots of lead.

And so I told our producer out there, Beth Header. I said, yeah, I want an interviewer. So I opened the interview with, I bet the Mizzino Tour Wrap, who made you pay for these clubs, is regretting that decision right now. And then her driver staff was great that day. So I kind of made some sort of tongue-in-cheek transition into the driver. And Janet answered it. And I didn't hear anything about it. I put out a tweet saying how disappointed I was.

And a day later, which is, by the way, I think three or four days before EEOC responses do, I get a call. I start getting these calls from Jeff Russell on my cell phone. Well, I'm in the middle of the morning wave round and the afternoon wave round. We have big coverage windows there, so we all get a break and I was going to get lunch. The service out there is horrible. So I waited until I got to my hotel to call him back. And I've had episodes with him, a shouting match with him, where he just, you know, as

I mentioned, with that NCAA staff where he just, you know, as I mentioned with that NCAA staff, he just laid into me. So I was breaking myself for it, and I'm telling myself, don't lose your temper, don't be mad, don't, you know, just whatever. So the conversation starts off and he's, you know, he's reasonable. He's asking me, you know, how I am, you know, whatever. Short, small talk. And he said, well, I'm calling you about this Mizzuna thing and about your tweet. He didn't even mention

the interview. And he asked it. He said that they had gotten some calls from Mizzuna and asked if I had contacted Mizzuna. Because Mizzuna thought that, quote, his words, I was being unfair to them. And I somewhat, you know, not writing a story, but I put out a tweet knowing the parties involved and felt 100% confident that it was true. I didn't need to follow up with Muzuna to get a reason why. I knew why. And that's when I told him. I said,

it happens all the time, Jeff, on the LPGA tour in terms of the stuff. Beth Ann Nichols has written an in-depth article, and the men that I mentioned, Beth Ann Nichols, what went from a normal conversation, he absolutely flipped a switch, and started screaming at me. I, and literally at the top of his lungs saying,

I don't give a shit Lisa, I don't give a shit what they write or what they say. If you're going to be a reporter and screaming at me, you know what you need to do. At the top of his lungs and I said, yeah, I know what I need to do. I need to hang up because nobody talks to me the way that you're talking to me.

And I hung up. I didn't give them a chance to say anything else. I wasn't going to take it. And plus I knew I was getting ready to lose it myself. And that's exactly what I didn't want to do. So I'm in my room literally, hotel room texting Tom and Allison, my cousin, Tom and my attorney, immediately saying, you're not going to believe what just happened. Allison calls me.

I'm on the phone with her in Mark Summer who was the head of Gulf Central, the senior director of the Gulf Central calls me. And so I told her, I said, I got to call you back. So I answer his call and he said, Lisa, you have to call Jeff back. And she said, what do you mean? He said, he just called me. You have to call him back. I said, Mark, I don't have to call Jeff back. I don't care what his title is. I don't care if

he's my boss. I wouldn't let the president of the United States talk to me that way. You can tell Jeff if he wants to talk to me, and I'll be happy to communicate. I understand he's my boss. He can do Soviet text or he can do Soviet email, but I am not getting on the phone and getting verbally berated by him and cast out again. And Mark goes, okay, I'll tell him. So we hang up five minutes later, Jeff tries to call me again, and again, I don't answer. Mark calls me back five minutes later and says, Jeff wants me to tell you to go home. And I said, what?

Jeff wants me to pack up and go home. He said, yes. And you could hear there was a little, I mean, Mark having to make that call. I'm sure was. I don't know what he was thinking, because we never talked about it. So I packed up and I went home the next day and that's when Brittany went to come.

People start noticing that I'm not there. All of a sudden they have Tom Abbott doing my report. And I don't know the communication, but I will say the frustrating part was I tried to contact Jack Graham, who was head of live tournaments and tell him what had happened and just give him number one the heads up that I was going home and number two, look, I can't believe that this has happened and he wouldn't even return my call. And you know, I don't even know what was explained to people in terms of how they explained, but it

turned into an absolute HR nightmare, as you can imagine, because I'm furious. I mean, I know that I'm on my way out, but this man who has already been part of this EEOC investigation has just had the audacity to cuss me out at the top of his lungs three days before this response is due. It was the height of arrogance. It was the height of an elitist organization with somebody with power who shouldn't have had it, who abused whatever office or title that he had, and he didn't care about the other stuff. And so what does Tom have to do? Well, I mean, Tom is funny. And he had, and he didn't care about the other stuff. And so what does Tom have to do?

Well, I mean, Tom is funny. And he said, well, where do I send him a fruit basket? I mean, because first of all, who does that? Right before knowingly, we're about to file this next response. So what do you think led that next response? A man in his 60s who was my boss screaming and cussing me out and sending me home over a gender-related issue from a women's golf tournament during the middle of a retaliation gender discrimination, EES, the case. I don't know what organization allows that to happen, but Boston didn't do anything about it. In fact, Jeff Russell put out this,

and I'm so glad that this happened, he put out this correction of me on Twitter saying we would like to go back and correct, we've done some investigative work about, you know, whatever, at least they didn't mention me by name, but the Mizzuna story and our reporting was incorrect, meaning my tweet and my question, and we apologize for that mistake. Next week is still on Boston Social Profile, which by the way, the player Janet Chilin and the club fitter,

Perifisher, both retweeted saying that it was factually incorrect and that they needed to correct it. They never corrected it. They never publicly apologized to it. They did admit to me privately, Julie last finally did, that it was wrong, but she told me that there was no way that they could go out publicly and correct it. I never heard a word from Jeff Russell until I demanded from her via email for an apology

which he sent me a half-assed one, it's ridiculous, and he said, at the end of it, rest assured this will never happen again. He didn't apologize for sending me home. He apologized for his tone, those were his words, and ended it with rest assured this will never happen again. We know it he meant by that and how I took it. I never interviewed another LPGA player on live television after that. So I covered the taping M.G., Women's PGA championship where I usually do the golf channel interviews

on Thursday Friday, Steve fans did all of them. I usually do the interviews. Anytime it's on golf channel for any major, which this year it was on, for the U.S. women's open, Car Banks they flew her down specifically to do all the golf channel interviews on golf channel and then on NBC and then it's see a me where every year I've done the interviews on Thursday, Friday, Saturday. I didn't do them then they they flew Damon hack down to do all the interviews. So, you know, So, you know, when somebody wants to know why I tweeted what I did on January 1, damn straight I want to tweet that, not to get sympathy, but to let them know that I'm not going away and I don't care if I have to go to flip burgers, they're burger king and maybe I will.

Maybe nobody else wants to touch it, but the injustices that have happened in this case and knowing what has happened to other women. But then to try to do it to me in this manner, starting with the NCAAs and finishing at A&A and CME and KTMG and the women's open. When these players know me, I mean, this has been my job since I've been there. And to continue to retaliate and to think that you can get away with that kind of stuff. Well, it turns out you can't,

because I'm not afraid to call them out. I'm not afraid to put my career on the line for this. It means too much and this stuff, Chris, has to stop and the only way that you stop it is to call them out on it. And that's why I'm talking to you. And that's why I put that tweet out. It's not for sympathy. That's the last thing that I want.

I mean, I'm mad. So a question I have is, you know, maybe something that listeners are wondering as well, is linking the case, the discrimination, gender-related discrimination case, with the stories that we're hearing. I wonder if you could kind of help fill in the, the, some color in there as to why you believe these issues to be gender-specific. Well, I, I think that that's not only a good question to ask, but a fair question, Chris, but I can, you know, Tom and I had a lot of discussions about the angle to take this. And obviously the gender discrimination is a big part of it, the retaliation.

From my standpoint, just in terms of what I went through, just watching things that had happened to other women, watching what had happened to me, watching certain assignments that were given and weren't given, and knowing that I earned them or another female there who had earned them. But I think in terms of how you actually go down that path, Tom probably, and I'm glad that he's actually on here, and I can let him speak, because he probably has a lot to speak, but Tom, you understand this more in terms of the legality and the right path to take in terms of why we won't let that gender discrimination as well as retaliation.

in terms of why we won't let that gender discrimination as well as retaliation. Well, as I should, I do know a little bit more about it from the legal angle Lisa, but I think I can talk about this in terms that all the listeners could understand, comments and storms, and I would say this, and I don't say this lightly, I say this with a lot of confidence after conducting a very thorough investigation. The golf channel has a history of finding pretextual reasons to exit female employees when they don't keep their mouth shut about what appears to be a misogynistic culture and clearly disparate treatment of women.

There's a long history of that. And the women that we've talked to, and of course, really typified by your experience, have legitimate grounds for objecting to the continuation of this culture, these unlawful employment practices. There's a history, a clear history of men being given preferential treatment over women, and the executive team turning a blind eye to conduct by male executives and team employees that I'm telling you would not be tolerated anywhere else that I've worked or any company I've represented. And I can tell you that if the set of facts that we've developed in our investigation have been presented to me when I was the person responsible for human resources for Walmart US, we would have

replaced the entire leadership team of that business unit. But here in contrast NBC Sports is going out of their way and going to great lengths to try to put together a defense that frankly doesn't hold water. And as you know Lisa, you're not the first of the only woman to voice objections about these unlawful employer practices. Most of the women have been silenced by signing NDAs in exchange for cash payments. And you're just the first person who's been willing to speak up publicly and hasn't signed an agreement

in exchange for cash in order to keep you quiet. And aside from all that, I would mention something you I think alluded to earlier. The reporting structure and the nepotism involving Molly Solomon and Jeff Russell was a recipe for disaster from an HR perspective and any HR professional and certainly based on my experience would agree that that reporting structure made no sense and reflects a lack of awareness work concern for

the effect that had on on people like you You'd mention that women from the golf channel have been reaching out to you this weekend to share some of their experiences. That's another part of the reason that I'm so confident will be able to establish that their justification for not renewing your contract doesn't pass a straight-faced test.

It doesn't. Our investigation of recent personnel decisions and public information about recent hires by the golf channel makes clear that playing the budget card was just a, frankly, a common strategy that's used by companies that have no defense to an awful employment practices. And I've been involved in these cases

on the corporate side and on behalf of employees. And I can see through this and did see through it immediately. And so did you. I have no doubt that this is not going to end well for the golf show. Well Tom to that point I'm wondering if you could share, you know, I have no idea how the legalese on any of this works, but if you could share any other specific examples I guess that, you know, that you guys will either be a part of your guys' case or that you're aware of between golf channel and women per se. Sure, Chris. I could provide a couple of examples of their countless examples I could tell you about if we had that much time. One example would be an executive telling a female employee that she needed to dress more

like Hillary Clinton and wear pants because her, quote, tan athletic legs, close quote, were too distracting to the men during meetings at golf channel. That's an example that I think your listeners would agree suggest some misogynistic culture because the golf channel executives apparently think that's okay. One other example would be a senior male employee telling a young 20-something female employee the golf channel while criticizing her job performance that, quote, a trained monkey could do her job close quote. Those are just a couple of examples. I could provide many more,

but I think those make the point. Well, thank you for that, Tom. I'm wondering for Lisa, this question is more specific to you. I guess for you, was there any intimidation in terms of, you know, nervousness on your end to speak out about this? Any second thoughts or any

reasons why you would be apprehensive about speaking out? Zero, not one. And I knew that there would be criticism. There were criticism on Twitter. And it was funny because I would text Tom and say, okay, I'm biting my tongue. This is hard for me. Yeah, because the worst thing in the world I ever want anybody to say, number one, question my character, number two two question my mother's and number three

To say that I won't simply anybody who knows me I mean that was the that was the blood boiling thing so anybody wants to get to me now Now they'll probably tweet that to me. It's okay. It's fine because I'm you know, I'm asking for it So go ahead but No, there was no hesitation. There was no hesitation on coming out, and Tom, to his credit, said Lee Savin before we got on with you, Chris, said, whatever you want to say, if you want to come fully out there, if you want to be a little bit more conservative on this, and I said, no, because

that's what they want. They want me to be quiet. They don't expect me to name names. They don't expect me to tell all of these stories. But unless you do, and unless you're willing to go to bat and say, OK, whatever the repercussions are here, I'm willing to take it. I am.

I had somebody on Twitter saying, well, this is career suicide. Maybe it is. But you know what? If somebody has a problem with me sticking up for myself and other women after hearing my story, and hopefully after they hear these other women's stories, because I know that they want to talk,

then I don't want to work there anyway. I want to be at a place where I'm respected, because I respect people. I mean, the biggest compliments that I've gotten, Chris, have been when people say that number one, that I'm a professional in how I handle my job, that's the biggest compliment, because I know that that's what my parents will be proud of,

that they know that I know the game, because I worked hard to know the game, and I do know the game. But just also that I'm a team player, I mean I grew up playing team sports and I know how important that is. And you know I've gotten messages unfortunately from a lot of my former co-workers who, because they are understandably so. I don't fault them or criticize them for not speaking out of them on behalf, but it puts their job in jeopardy. But they're texting me saying, we're proud of you.

You know, you're keep doing it, fight this fight. And they know how much I care about it, and how passionate I am about making this stuff go away. It is now 2021. We have a lot of things to deal with in this world, but treating somebody this way because of whatever your opinion is isn't right. And to sweep it under the rug in terms of those issues that Tom mentioned while those people

aren't free to say anything, we can. And you know, we don't have to name names, but I still, because the person he was talking about, I know well, who had that voice mail and heard those words that any trained monkey can do your job. Who says that to a person? If I said that at golf channel, I would have gotten fired and I should have been fired. But you know what? I would never say that to anybody.

It's just unbelievable to me the things that have happened. And am I perfect? Absolutely not. Have I had times where I lost my temper, acted like an idiot's course? But I apologize for it. I know when I'm out of line. And you own up to it, you make it right,

and you do better the next time. So I guess simply to answer your question, absolutely not. I was at 99% on this. I was 100% on this because it matters. And I couldn't sleep with myself at night if I didn't do something to not only stand up for myself, but all of these things that have happened to other women that, again, I've never been sexually harassed. I've never had to face that. And I'm not saying that any of these cases are that. My thing is nothing compared to that.

And I can't imagine people who have been through that. But thankfully, because of Tom and being able to save a little bit of money, not having kids, not having that financial responsibility, it was the battle that I wanted to take on. Not worry about what was next in terms of job, but just do this right now and focus on this. And I hope that you can tell that I'm all in on this. It matters. And I hope that something positive comes from it. That's what matters most to me right now. Yeah, you answered one of my next questions,

which is just kind of what had you heard from people, either current or former golf team employees. I was sure you had as to what your feedback had been like. But that, that, I think that effectively answers that. I do have a couple, if I could change gears a little bit here, and I promise I will eventually let you go in this Sunday night. One of the topics I wanted to discuss with you, you know, it's always something that I, I'm happy to discuss with people after their

employment, you know, with an entity like a broadcasting entity has ended, is what it's like working for a channel, a golf channel, a sports channel that is some, you know, portrays itself in some ways as a news organization, yeah, it's quite complicated when you have, you know, rights, or, you know, fees and settlements and whatnot with big sports leagues, PGA tour, LPGA.

You have partnerships with these leagues. You have sponsors that sponsors the show and I think this kind of all speaks to the Mizuno A&A incident that you mentioned earlier, but that's got to be an incredibly difficult thing to balance. And I just curious as to what that balance was like in your experience sitting in that chair, you know, knowing that, you know, the tour once their product presented a certain way, et cetera, and the golf channel is independent, but not, I'm wondering if you could speak to that kind of relationship. Yeah, I know I get discussed a lot, and look, and I know that you guys are,

you all being in the no-lane-up folks are really passionate about that. And I think that that is a good thing. I think that the separation of church and state is always important because it presents the most honest coverage out there. And I will say that that's one thing that I think I always appreciated from a lot of our writers that it didn't seem to happen as much editorially in terms of POMPTIN online versus the TV coverage. I wasn't really privy to a lot of that because I never got to work live from, I never got to work the really big events and when I did work a bigger event

like a WGC on the PGA tour, there were no restrictions in place in terms of me reporting. But I'm, you know, I think every reporter has his own style and my style as a golfer has always been to focus on the golf. And so I don't know if I ever really dove into the controversy in terms of that. I mean, Commissioner Monane has always been great to me. I think I really do respect him. I think he's honest, I think he's fair. I don't know what those conversations were like in terms of, you have to report this way. I mean, I know that they're really big.

I'm always putting out the FedEx kept standing and, you know, rightfully so if you're a TGA TURY, you want to push for that, right? I don't know how golf channel handled that in terms of, you got to say it this many times. You have to, it might have been different if I had worked a life from or a big event, I just never had any of those opportunities. And I was never part of any meeting where that would have been a conversation, unfortunately. Well, one other thing, and I'm wondering if you can kind of help me connect the dots here with, you know, NBC and CBS just signed on for many more years to PGA tour. Reportedly, the rights fees, you know,

are increasing in the realm of 70%. Golf channel, which is owned by NBC, is now moving their operations to Stanford as what I assume to be a cost saving measure. Is it fair to say, in your opinion, that, you know, connecting those dots, that the rights fee increase is a factor in a lot of jobs being lost at Golf Channel?

Yeah, I mean, probably so. Again, this is just me speculating, really. I think that more people would have gone to Stanford, had it not been for COVID. I really do. I think that there were a lot of people who were, who had been talked to about having positions. And then that number when COVID hit just kept getting smaller and smaller and smaller

and smaller and it really is a very small step. But I know a lot of people who, because of that, I think lost their jobs in terms of the financial decisions behind it. I was so out of the loop all of last year, even though people kept saying, oh, I saw you on TV. I feel like I see you on TV all the time. It was the most out of the year that I'd ever had,

because I only worked in events, and I was never in the building. So I wasn't part of the normal discussions that I would have been before, just because of the demotion from full time to freelance. I know I did a really bad job. No, it's a complicated job. I just wished that I had number one more insight and maybe a little bit more intellect to be able to go into the economics of it. But, you know, there obviously the mood to Stanford and consolidating everything.

Yeah, I mean, the right scene is through the roof. I mean, DJI2 receives value and there is value. So, yeah, I think that that had a huge impact. Yeah. Well, no, it was, it was all my list of something to ask you about. And it also speaks to you, like you said, the kind of being checked out within this past year or kind of out of the loop, it all fits into a lot of the other stuff that I think we've covered tonight.

But on that note, I am going to let you guys out of here. Finally, I really, really appreciate you taking the time, answering all our questions and sharing your story. We will have to do another podcast in the future that's a more fun one, perhaps, that we can just talk to our wood stories. Well, Chris, first of all, you've given me a lot of space to talk, so I thank you for that. And I really, you know, I haven't been that connected with you all before, but certainly have always been a fan from the

sidelines and an even bigger fan now. I have a lot of, I have a lot of respect for you to reach out to me. I can't tell you how much it, it means to me that you gave me a platform to share my story. It speaks volumes about you, it speaks volumes about no laying up and how much you all have invested in the game and you should be proud of that because I'm proud of that for you. Give it a big thumbs up. Feed a right club today. Yeah! Daddy, that's better than most.

How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different.