No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 430: Jordan Spieth

Episode Date: May 11, 2021

It's AT&T Byron Nelson week, and Jordan Spieth joins us to discuss his resurgence, battling through swing issues, building confidence, his most embarrassing moment on a golf course, confidence, and so much more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang Up Podcast. Sully here, got an awesome, awesome interview here with Jordan Speeth. I believe this is the third time he has joined us on the podcast, Great Insight, ahead of the AT&T Byron Nelson.

This coming week, big shout out to AT&T for helping us arrange this interview. And speaking of which, AT&T is proud to support the North Texas community as title sponsor for the seventh year of the AT&T Byron Nelson, which benefits Dallas-based momentous institute. The momentous institute serves over 6,000 children and family members directly each year through therapeutic and educational programs and shares in the belief and commitment to providing equal opportunity through education. AT&T is committing to bridging the digital divide in the communities they serve through combining AT&T's low-cost broadband service offerings with community investment. They're building on their contribution of $1 billion over the last three years toward

helping the nation's most vulnerable communities and they're investing in other two billion dollars over the next three years. AT&T is dedicated to doing their part to bring affordability, educational resources, and economic opportunity to the millions of Americans who don't have broadband connectivity today. And at this year's AT&T Byron Nelson, they're going to continue their commitment to connected learning and bridging the digital divide with a special element of competition on the course AT&T birdies for students every birdie or better on the 17th hole AT&T will pledge $2,500 toward student connectivity so root for every player to have a birdie or better on hole 17.

And for all you Jordan's beef fans out there you won't see Jordan's beef sporting his famous AT&T golf bag at the Byron Nelson during the tournament he'll be carrying a bag designed by the winner of the AT&T Artistic Drive Contest, a competition that gave fans the opportunity to submit their own bag designs for Jordan. So be sure to tune in and check that out. Without any further delay, here's our interview with Jordan's beef. All right, so when we chatted about two years ago, we broke down some of your swing feels, swing thoughts, some. I got a couple messages from people calling it a therapy session, whether or not you were laying on a couch as we did that.

But I'm wondering if your perspective has changed at all with your recent success over where you ended up landing with your swing with all the things you had going on in spring of 2019 and how you knew it was where you ended up wanting to be. Yeah, I would say looking back, it was a therapy session. That's kind of a good call. I was kind of searching myself while convincing myself of some things without necessarily knowing for sure, I guess.

But yeah, it's been a really fun year. I feel like, you know, last December, I kind of just hit the reset button, took a month off from the game and said, coming back in sanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And I said, I'm done with kind of how I was approaching the game of golf, and I needed to make an adjustment. And just really just went back to the drawing board, went back in time and built a plan up that I was going to go full all in on instead of bailing on and going back, you know, day to day and changing things. I was going to go all in on no matter what.

And however long it took it was going to take. And fortunately, it's been a really good start to the spring this year. My first event, I missed the cut in Tory Pines and was pretty down on myself. I was hoping to just get off to just a great start. But rebounded really nicely before Phoenix and got over there and got to work without taking any days off and said, it's not going to get in on its own. You got to put in the hours and then from there, it's really been a really fun and good stretch of golf.

But it was really just going back in time for me. It was going back and I'm not talking about going back to like 2015 or 2017. I'm talking about going back to like rookie year, going back to when I was 15, 16 years old, looking at the DNA of what I did well and why I did it well. Back then it was, you know, just go play, but I needed to structurally move things back to my DNA. You know, when you watch like Justin, when he's swinging, he's always got his dad there

checking on things that it's his swing. He's not trying to do anything crazy or fancy, but he's never really getting far off because they're always just staying within the parameters, working, work tip in the scale just a little bit here there. And it's that similar to how it used to be for me and I just needed to get back to there. Well, so when you would look at your swing now and compare it to whatever, you know, you had great, great ball striking years in 2017 and 2015.

And the way you described it previously, it's not like you had different feels for those years. But when you compare it to now to that timing, do you feel like a different golfer? Do you feel like you're swinging the club differently than you did back then? Maybe it's some of that same DNA you're talking about. But it kind of looks different to me. It looks like you're rehearsing different things, but I'd love to hear you explain what that swing looks and feels like to you compared to, you know, prior successful swings.

Yeah, so what I, the way I, my swing feels throughout, you know, different periods of time, were very different from each other. In fact, even opposites at times, even though, and that's what I mean by tip the scale, a little here or there, I might get a little bit laid off and have to feel support of the club and then I might get a little over supported and feel like I can flatten the shaft a bit back then and it would just barely tip it a little bit here or there but structurally all the major things were

were very similar and so now it's been about trying to get, trying to get steeper into the backswing and then shallow the club transitionally so I can burn and turn. And that's really my DNA. I just did it really well. I swung in front of my body, meaning my arms never got too high or too behind me, too deep. They stayed kind of in front of my chest as I supported the club going back. And then when I started

transitionally to turn, it lagged the club into the ball where I could turn and burn and hit this nice compressed, you know, very straightish starting ball flight with, you know, a little bit of turn right to left or a little bit of turn left to right. But I can manipulate the club a lot for the ball to move a very little bit when I'm in that position. And so that's just what that, I mean, essentially, that just puts it in a, where your misses are just tighter and tighter and then when you're on, it just, it just feels great through the ball. It's almost like for me trying to get it to feel, you know, when you see pros and really high quality amateurs hit, like 70 yard, you know, those low kind of very

straight like open face, but those low nip shots where they take that one hop forward and then they just stop on a dime. I'm kind of trying to get that feel through the bag and that happens from getting kind of my arms out in front of me with a club lag behind so I can get my chest open to the target and burn and turn. It's been very difficult and even coming off a session today. I feel like I've tipped the scales since the Masters significantly better but still can't get it structurally to look like it has been. That's okay because for me, I'm working kind of impact backwards instead of being just overly focused

on how things look and compare. It's more, well, you know what? That didn't quite look like that, but I got it to the right place and I produced the right ball flight and I feel like I could do that again if I stepped over it. And that's been the key to success for me.

It's just been tighter start lines because of where I'm positioning the club as it's coming into impact. Yeah, I remember you saying that you were initially at least part of the reason for some things maybe going to rye was you wanted your backswing to look like Adam Scott. And you know, it now it sounds like basically what you just said, you're very comfortable with your backswing looking like whatever it looks like as long as your, uh, log as your feels and whatnot and your misses are right.

And it seems like, did you feel when and what not in your misses are right. And it seems like, did you feel when things were not going your way that you were especially held back with driver? Because it felt like, you know, your iron swing was maybe not, not totally dialed, but it seemed like the driver was the big question mark. Your birdie percentage was always really good. You just had, you know, your bogey percentage was just not

within the realm of what you're used to. What's your relationship like now with driver? Because I mean, if I'm watching Valero, I root for you, of course, that's very evident to anyone that follows this podcast, but like, I didn't even break a sweat at Valero. Like, it felt like you were totally down in control and it seems like that's come a long way. Yeah, well, I mean, the driver just goes the furthest. So if you're behind it and you're launching it at a degree off, a degree off of the

seven iron is this edge of the green, but a degree off with the driver. I mean, especially if you're lining up to play a ball flight is, you know, 20 yards offline just to start. So it's really just, it gets heightened as it goes up the bag. And that's anybody. I mean, even like Bryson at the speed he's at now, you know, it just, it's harder and harder to hit it straighter because that one degree, if it's off, is further offline. I mean, it's, you know, as he would put it

in science. So it was, it was really, you know, the five irons were better than the four irons, the four irons were better than the hybrid, you know, and up the back. So, you know, you're trying to hit the driver harder than you're trying to hit your irons and that's just going to kind of disconnect things just a little bit more. So, yeah, I mean it was, now, I mean, as things are, I feel like I've got a ball flight I can play and I think that's really key. Like, as I'm still working to try and get things where I want them to get and it still is a work in progress. I feel like if I need a shot with the driver, I can hit it. And that's been this very opened up kind of trap fade. And

then if it's mis-hit, it still holds in the fairway. And when it struck well, it comes out as this kind of low-cut, you know, kind of a punch-cut shot that, again, I'm not going to play that every time because it's not necessarily called for on a lot of holes. But if I need a ball to go in the fairway under pressure, regardless of kind of the timing of the swing, I know that if I get cleared out and open and I'm leaning that shaft in, I'm going to be able to hit that ball flight. And I think that in itself is enough of a confidence boost

for me to just feel that much more freedom on the course to where I can put four, I've been able to put four rounds together instead of putting two and a half and having three bad nine holes that don't allow me to win a golf tournament, which is kind of, I think the difference in this year versus previous years is I'd shoot three over on a nine holes and Unfortunately, you shoot three over one time on nine holes and most of these golf tournaments

You're really coming from behind to mean to try and win so It's it's um. Yeah, the relationship is really through the bag and it's just a matter of Again for me when I'm dialing in kind of these half swing wedge shots And I feel like I'm really getting that tempo down On the range I can start to carry that up through the bag and then take it on to the golf course Yeah, gosh that all that unpacking all that makes makes a ton of senses to why we saw flashes of brilliance You know and in what we would call it downtime in your career yet, you know the finishes didn't quite fully follow But you know we we've got to see so much of, we see your performance, right?

That's the only thing the fans really get to see, you know, when you're putting your game on exhibition, but I want you to help me paint the picture for what the work has looked like. I mean, is it, have your hours in the lab with Cameron and the guys at Alta's have that gone up? Is it a ton of film study, a ton of drills? Just like trying out different things

from maybe hammering in the same things? I just wanna know what the part that people haven't seen looks like and whether those sessions have gotten longer, more frustrating, more agonizing or more helpful. I'm very curious as to how that goes. Yeah, it's one of those where I kind of, I mean, I'm a pretty private person as far as it comes

to practice or even just anything in personal life and all that. But part of me kind of wishes that, and I'm hopeful that it would be actually something that would be of interest to people, but is that there was just someone with a camera and a microphone on kind of the last few years. I mean, hopefully someday coming out of it, it's something I can look back on and say, man, I mean, this was, this was crazy. I remember this. It was so frustrating. So many days where I, you know, sleepless nights where I just, I got to get back to the range. I got to try and figure this

out and, and just continuing for the first time in my life to not be able to, to do, to, to figure something out. What had come pretty easy to me for a long time. And I mean, that's, I was very fortunate that that that was that it took, you know, that I had had so much success that I can, you know, use for confidence, say, hey, I have this that works. I did this really well. I've done, if I do this, I know that I can be the best in the world because I've done it before. And now, if anything, you know that I can be the best in the world because I've done it before.

And now, if anything, there's just extra scar tissue. I just, I've learned more about what my tendencies are. And I know how to handle kind of a bad swing or a bad shot better than I did before, because I've just got more knowledge on the matter. So, yeah, I mean, it's funny. It's just, it's like any like bell curve. It's like, as it's going down, it's like, man, it just seems like it's going down, it's going down,

and then at some point, you don't know where that bottom is, but when it starts to come back up, it's like every day, it just seems to move it the right direction, move it, and all of a sudden, like what's weird is, when things are going, and I guess it's not weird, it's probably what you'd expect, but when things are starting to go well and you're starting to feel momentum,

I don't feel the pressure to wanna go to the range after I shoot, you know, four or five under, I'm like, you know what, I feel good about this, I'm gonna be in contention, I need to save energy. And you end up working smarter when you get, when you feel the little bit momentum versus when it's a little bit off, you feel like you put in more hours, but don't really get anything out of it.

And then that rest and recovery, where you're like, okay, you know, it could have been better. I'm going to try and tip it, you know, 1% more tomorrow, but I don't need to go do that right now because what I have is good enough right now. And if I can get 1% better each day, you start to see the positive the light at the end of the tunnel, and it actually makes you more patient and work even smarter. And I think that's been kind of, I've kind of picked my spots where my hands are bleeding at the end of the day, instead of going out and sunrise the sun set to try and figure something out, I hope that answers what you're saying.

No, it does. No, it really does. I mean, it's just putting in more hours at any level, it does not necessarily translate to immediate success. But if I may say, every time I talk to Cori or anyone there at Altus, they were steadfast at all times, never wavering that you were close.

To the point where I was finally, as a fan of yours, I was kind of like, all right, well, I mean, they just spew in this at me just to keep my confidence up high. But did you feel that kind of confidence from within the team? Because looking back at it now, it's like, wow, they were right. He was on this path and he's come out of it. But internally, did you feel that? Yeah, it's also hard when you're kind of down on yourself sometimes, it's really nice to have people

in your corner that have confidence in you and stuff like that, but it's also almost easier to be alone at times because you can't figure it out yourself and you're like, maybe, and you're like, well, I don't necessarily know if you know what the problem is, so I don't really want to hear it from you right now. Even though it's all supportive and it's, you know,

I mean, it's just, it's kind of odd. And, you know, for, again, as I mentioned before, the team that I have around me, has, in my opinion, is that they're the best of what they do in the world. And I've it's been proven to me. I mean, I've seen that. I've seen them all in action take. I've seen Michael in situations where he knew exactly what I needed to hear at the time

and it just flipped the switch for me on a stretch of holes that made a difference in a tournament. You know, I've seen Cameron problem solve something that's like, wow, in the next 10 days, I went from feeling like, man, I didn't have that shot to, I'm gonna hit that shot under pressure to win a golf tournament. So, my confidence never wavered in the team,

but sometimes you don't necessarily, you just kinda, it was hard. It was almost like just easier to try and solve it on my own, even though that's not the answer. You just almost want to dig through it and feel like. And so once I started to open up and just rely on some other people and really let them in, it was, it actually really, really helped turn things around for me. A quick break here to check in with our friends at Precision Pro Golf.

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Go to precisionprogolf.com, use coupon code, no laying up at checkout for $20 off our favorite range finder the NX 9 slopes. Wing with confidence hit more greens with precision pro golf. Let's get back to Jordan's feet. Well, on the graller note, I want to talk a bit about your relationship with Michael and what that's been like over the last few years.

I feel like we've kind of watched on TV, you guys, at least what we were able to see grow up in front of our eyes. But if I may say it doesn't always seem, at least from watching on TV, it doesn't seem like you guys are always on the same page, right? Even as your game has improved, there's a lot of back and forth. It's a fascinating dynamic to watch. And I'm just wondering if you could add some colors to how that relationship has developed

over the last decade. It's, you know, there's certainly been, you know, when you got a microphone on you all the time, there's certainly been clips and there's been times where I've certainly regretted the way I've approached situations. And it's interesting because, you know, before you have a caddy in junior golf and college golf,

like you run into where you're really upset, but you got no one's there, right? So you're holding it into yourself, or you're just letting it out for a second, or you're hitting your club on the ground, and then you're kind of done with it. But now you got someone to just talk to about everything. And at times, it's really helpful, but at times,

it's also I can get into kind of negative banter because what I would normally be able to just kind of compartmentalize and just figure out by the next shot, I feel like I got to justify it to Michael. He's on the team out by the next shot. I feel like I gotta justify it to Michael. You know, he's on the team and I'm like, I feel like I gotta justify something to him. And I run into this with him a lot and we've kind of developed a system where,

if it feels like I've just been kind of over-talking, he's got like a safe word where he just, he says something and he's like, and then I can't talk anymore until the next shot. And it's only when it's gone really overboard and he knows what it is. And it's only when I'm just repeating myself and I'm just going in a circle. And a lot of times he'll remind me because I mentioned this to him. I play with Tiger when he was really, I've been a Tiger a lot of it, but I play with

him quite a few times when he was really, really struggling like in the 2015, 16 frame, into 14, he's trying to come back and he had, he was really struggling chipping and just, you know, wasn't playing very well. And out of every single round, I play with him, I never heard him say one negative thing. Now, he was mad and he would, you know, he would drop an F-bomb or he would, you know,

but it was never a negative comment about himself. And it's the only person I play with that I can say that about, including myself. And I just thought that that was so intriguing that I've never heard him say one negative thing about, and he clearly, you know, and he's human. So in his, as much as we kind of don't believe that, he, you know, in his head, you know, he's probably thinking, man, I, I can't chip right now or what and but he'll never say it out loud and he'll never let it kind of take over him at all at any period of time. And I just, we, we draw back on that a lot. Michael mentioned that a lot when, when I'm kind of getting into that frame of mind.

But it's fun talking through shots and situations with him. We've had the highest highs and some of the lowest lows together and there's no one else I'd rather on the bag when it's crunch time on a Saturday or Sunday and I'm trying to do a little too much or I'm asking a question about what's behind that pin and he paints a clear picture for me to feel that confident going into it. So it's certainly been a challenge. I mean, you know, he, from his perspective, you know, he had some big years and, you know, a couple of kids and then all of a sudden, you know, we didn't make a lot of money on

the golf course the last couple of years relative to previous years. And that certainly would affect him more than it would myself just in percentages. And so for me, even though he's never once made me feel that way, but I feel like kind of responsible. I'm like, man, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I trust me. I want to win. I want you to have everything that you want to have and all that.

And anyway, we've had some really, really good talks. He came in over the break as well to work a little bit to see what we were working on. We just really got established in a really good game plan to where we can just kind of both free wheel it. We know how to approach each situation. We just, we dialed it in ahead of time, almost like a class.

We almost just went over a syllabus, right? When this happens, this is what we do. When this happens, this is what we do. When this happens, this is what we do. And we kind of study it and we're good to go. Do you ever wear yourself out on, because it seems you're kind of like me in a certain regard. I feel like you live and die with almost every shot. And I'm wondering if that does anything

to your energy level. And you have kind of some of these up and down rounds where you're scrambling from all over the place. You know, I just, I feel like Greller is there to kind of take some of that energy on, I guess. But do you ever feel like you kind of maybe put too much stress or emphasis on it, shot by shot? I mean, I just don't know how you have

the mental energy to ask that for seven months. But yeah, yeah, or 25 years. Yeah, exactly. No, I really don't now. That's been the number one advantage that's come out of struggling for a little while. Is now, you know, I'll get into a situation where I hit a shot and it's a bad shot.

And I'm like, oh boy, you know, be okay. Or I know that it's going to be. And I actually, I mean, and this is, I'm talking 2021. It's been so totally different in my, I'm like, I mean, and this is, I'm talking 2021. It's been so totally different in my, I'm like, all right, well, I hit it there, you know, what else is there to do? And I think that when I went from, you know, not really, one of my biggest advantages

for a lot of years was that I really just, my misses were very tight. I never got into too much trouble and I normally missed them to where it was a very doable up and down with very few more than bogies on a card for a number of years. And then I got to where I could, you know, I unfortunately could make plenty of big numbers. And, you know, I've made some big numbers certainly in those times, but as a whole, you know, for it was more rare.

So I think after kind of living and dying a lot with just, and really a lot of that was knowing that around the corner, there was a foul ball. And it's almost like, man, I need to be perfect until that happens. And it's just such an awful way to have to do your job. And I think just feeling like, okay, if I do this and this, I know I can,

I've got that shot. I've just, I'm like, I've just got to a point where I feel like I'm playing golf again, where I feel like, okay, I'm actually, I'm seeing that tree, I'm gonna work it off that tree to that tree. And, you know, if I make the perfect swing grade, if I don't, I know that I'm going to work it off that tree to that tree. And if I make the perfect swing grade, if I don't, I know that I'm going to get the club

into a position where it needs to. And this is the feel into the ball to produce this. And it just seems like why wouldn't she have done that years ago? And it's just more complicated than that. It just is. And I mean, you would know as somebody who plays a lot of golf rounds, I mean, you know, you would know as somebody who plays a lot

of golf rounds, I mean, you can feel like a left-handed hockey stick in your hand sometimes. And then when you do that thousands of times the wrong way, it takes a little time to kind of tip it back the right way. Well, that's what's so fascinating and why I'm spending the majority of my time with you breaking this down is at the highest level trying to find the... Because you're bad years, if we can call them that, they were like positive strokes gained I think in every one of the years, right? So we're not talking about somebody completely losing their ability to play the game, but

when you got to number one in the world, you're just viewed through a totally different lens both by people like me and just for yourself. So your expectations change and all that. And what I find to be the craziest and hardest thing is at your level, when you have done it to that level of success, even when you're playing great, you are going to have a week where things don't go good, right? But your game is still there, but there's no way to know that that week was maybe the start of a downturn.

So you don't know if you need to change anything. you don't know if any, you know, you need to touch anything up. If you need to do this, this, and this, or if you show it back up the next week, you got it, right? So that's what, like identifying issues and fixing them at the highest level has to be so challenging. And I'm wondering if you feel like you've learned anything about that process now that you're able to identify stuff faster if things do get off track in the future.

Looking forward, that's what I'm maybe most optimistic about is I'm like, man, I just feel like, and I can't remember what I was talking to about this. I think it was a Phil Mickelson, and I'm name dropping in here shamelessly. Talking about how you kind of need to be on one end of the spectrum or the other, you need to be on either, yeah, I don't necessarily care how I do that. I point name shoot and it's how I go about it. I don't need to know wrist angles, arm angles, forearm

roll, all that kind of stuff. You're all DJ, right? Who's gonna just step up? He's like, all right, I gotta chip this nine iron with trouble. Okay, I'll to chip this nine iron with trouble. Okay, I'll just chip the nine iron and hit it closer. All right, you need me to just peel this fade right here. All right, I'm gonna do that. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you have your like tiger woods or your Bryson where you know, you know, exactly what you do to the T.

And that doesn't mean that you're not still a field player. It just means that you have that, you just done the research and figured it out. And I think I got stuck in the middle there. It's so hard to be in the middle of that. That's what I was saying. And when you're in the middle, it's like, all right, unfortunately, I'm not point aim shoot, but I don't necessarily have the answers.

And you just, that's when you get to second guessing and hesitation and like any sport. I mean, if you're doing that as a basketball player, I mean, you're not going to have a very long shelf life. You know, I'm catching and firing, or this is what I do in my stroke, and I'm going to work on it with that, and I think most other sports are reactive, so it's a little easier to just be on, you know, even baseball now, there's so much you know analytical data for Swings, but I'd be interested to ask Mike Trout if he cares at all

You know because he he swings away swings He's the best player in the world. Does he know? Everything that he does or not, you know, where's he fall on that spectrum? And so it's really interesting and I just felt like I've needed to and I'm still need to still shift that way, but I kind of moved along that spectrum. I think optimistically looking forward once you get to the point where you feel that you can self-diagnose an issue when you do have a bad week or two, and it's not, you know, I'm hitputs that didn't go in kind of situation. Instead, you know, you felt pretty off. Um, when you, when you can do that in self-diagnose and be able to get a couple rain session in and, and get back on track, I think that's, that's the ultimate goal

is to be able to do that ideally by feel. And then if you need a little bit of video to, um, to maybe diagnose like, all right, yeah, okay, that, that is exactly what I feel, that my feels match the video, okay. But I think less video and more off of feel and self-diagnosis on these things that are on recognizing what you do well and why. Last two questions on this, and we can move on to some more fun stuff.

This is fun stuff. I mean, we're talking about you playing Good Golf now, but in everything we've talked about so far, I never heard you say bone chip. How big of a deal was that? It's hard to tell. It's hard to tell, you know, what all it, it affected how long and so it was in 2018,

and I resisted strengthening my grip. And I already play with a relatively weak grip and there's a lot of, you know, half and half, probably play with weaker neutral grips, but I didn't have any room to go weaker. I couldn't get my grip anywhere within, I mean, I want to say in December, I strengthened it, and you can measure this on the gear's system. And I want to, I mean, you could probably confirm with either courier camera, but somewhere in eight to ten degrees in grip strength, which if we as professionals move it to degrees, we feel like we're gonna hook it off the planet.

This was an 8 to 10 degree shift that is just absurd and very difficult for weeks to hit balls on the range and that's why I didn't play. Anyway, I had it taped up a lot at the Ryder Cup in 2018. I finished 31st and didn't make it to Eastlake. I was the only one on the team that didn't make it to Eastlake. I had such a great 2017 that I made the Ryder Cup team. I mean, it was, I couldn't move it there. I was just playing with an open face. Then when you're playing with an open face, you end up then doing other things

in the swing to compensate. And for me, that was backing out of it to give the club face time to catch up and close. And so once you start getting into that routine, you're not doing what I mentioned before, which is clearing out with a stronger face and some shaft lane, a la Brooks-Kepka Dustin Johnson, who have a ton of shift to the,

or even like a David Duval, if you wanna go back in time. Strong face, heavy club lean, these are great ball strikers and something that you see within the majority, almost all great ball strikers have that to them. And I was essentially moving for quite a while, moving the other direction because I had to and because my face was weak, because my grip was weak. So it's hard to say exactly because it didn't necessarily bother me. And I did some work on it and

rested it and all that. And end of 2018 into 2019. But I think I had kind of really fallen off from there structurally. And this was me fighting, you know, Cameron was like, hey, you need to strengthen the script. You need to do this. And I'm like, dude, I get to the foreiron and, you know, I've got to stop hitting. And so there was, you know, I didn't, it wasn't, in my opinion, it wasn't something I needed to make a big fuss out of because I didn't realize

what it was doing and how I could have maybe gone about and cleaned it out and taken that time off and said, if I was in the position I'm in now and I couldn't get to positions in the swing because my hand wouldn't let me then there's no use in not doing something about it. But with a lack of knowledge and all that, and then fighting Cameron a bit at the time, I kind of ended up in a bad spot. And then lastly, this is, I think it's been kind of whack him all on my front, trying to shut people down that keep,

seem to keep saying this, but can you just clarify what your relationship is with Bucharmon and how kind of weird that was reported in the last few months? Yeah, so I went to CM when we played the Vegas event and I told Cameron ahead of time and I said, hey, I'm going to go get a second opinion. I'm going to go see Butch for a lesson and he was, you know, he was perfectly fine with it and I said, I just really think I need to hear a different voice right now and just kind of see if

there's anything there that, because he's always, you know, I've known him since my rookie year and he's watched a lot of golf and he had reached out, I think, through bones to Michael and said, you know, I don't want to overstep anything here, I think that I can help. And I'm one of a number of, actually, there's a number of big names, not, I guess that's a bad way to say that about myself, but you know what I mean? There's a number of guys who have won major championships that you'd have no idea that have gone in

to see him periodically a time or two. And I didn't know that until I got there. And yeah, so I saw him once in state and touch and you know, talked to him on the phone a couple other times about just some things and and he's such a such a simple Concept guy a lot of body movement stuff. I mean, he's taught a lot of very different golf swings from Michelson to Tiger to Adam, I mean, you've got very different moves and

Tiger to Adam. I mean, you've got very different moves. And the one thing, I mean, he really just had, he was like, hey, there's a few things that, I think are a little bit different. You fixed a couple of them, but there's a couple others. And it's really just body movement stuff. And I thought that it was very helpful time and I was glad I went there.

And then I took that back to Cam and said, hey, this is what Boog said. And I want to work on this. This is how it felt when I played the next six rounds and then let's work on the structure as well. So yeah, I mean, I was obviously trying to do it quietly, but at some point, a couple of people see it happening or take a picture or something like that. But it wasn't like I was obviously trying to do it quietly, but at some point, a couple of people see it

happening or take a picture or something like that. But it wasn't like I was trying to, it was just more like I didn't want to have to go explaining it. Yeah, no. That is the color we were looking for there. Now moving ahead to 2021 Masters, what's your gut reaction when I say 2021 Masters? Is it some joy that came with T3 or some frustration that you didn't end up slid on the green jacket?

So I knew, you know, I felt like I potted well at San Antonio. I think I was top 10 strokes game for the week, which you normally have to be somewhere up there to win. And then I went to Augusta and my stroke felt the same. I felt like I burned a lot of edges, which is not normal for my history there. But I hit back a couple of weeks later, I go into CKAM and he's like, yeah, I mean, you were 50 at that of 54 in Stroke's Game Pudding.

And I finished three shots off of a win at Augusta. And that, when I look back, that's frustrating. That pissed me off a bit. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. I was 50 at that, a 54 guys in Strokes Game Pudding, and I guess they don't measure it on a tour app, but you can still get Brody's reports. And that was the worst I've ever put it in a Gusta

without really feeling like I didn't put well. And it was just one of those weeks where Ed just got burned. I made a couple of mistakes, but I made enough birdies anyways, and hit enough good shots to where you can win with a couple of mistakes. I made a triple on mine and in the first round

and stuff like that, but man, that's a long answer to, I was frustrated. Yeah, you went straight to putting, I was gonna say, that answers the question because you went straight to the putting. That's our man. Exactly, man. Well, it seemed like from watching, the years I remember you being really successful

on those greens, which has been pretty much everyone, you had the speed dialed, everything fell in at the exact right speed, and the speed of the greens and the crispiness of the greens just seemed different this year that you had to put it a little bit more defensively. You had to, it almost seems like at times you can take some break out. You can kind of choose the speed that you want to hit a put at Augusta.

And this year it felt like, no, no, no, you got to get it right and it's got to be drip speed. Is that, am I on to something there? Well, and that, like, if you gave me the option, I would choose that route 100 out of 100 times. Give me the firmest, fastest, drippiest. That's where I want it. The problem was, I I didn't put well in the first round. I really, you know, I didn't quite get things going through the first couple rounds and then the speed change when the weather came in and I was already starting to then be a little bit more less committed through my stroke. You know, I saw a couple, you know, that Master's app is great.

And so you can look back and it was nice to see a couple of angles on some putts I missed so that I could try and adapt for the next day. You know, it's gotta be a pretty good angle to be able to tell, but I've seen enough strokes on TV or apps or whatever, where I'm like, okay, that one, okay, I look like I committed that one or I look like I backed off and then I also remember how I felt over it. So I'm doing all that, you know, just, that one, okay, I look like I committed that one or I look like I backed off and then I also remember

how I felt over it. So I'm doing all that, you know, just, you know, after the first round or something and I'm like, okay, I look like I got a lot more tentative within my own stroke, just having the ball not go in and a little more frustrated on the greens and less kind of walking, like that cockiness walking into it like, all right, you know,

this is gonna drop in the dead center and more of the like, man, cockiness walking into it, like, all right, you know, this is gonna drop in the dead center and more of the like, man, I'm gonna hit it out here and I hope that it falls. And then when I got messed up a little bit when that rain came in on Saturday and I think I had two, three puts from leaving them short on the back nine and a time where I really needed to make a move to be within, you know, three or four shots of a deck

you go into Sunday and very well could have. And I think that's what really, really hurt me there. It kind of built up the first couple rounds. And then I got to where I just didn't make an adjustment. And I mean, when that rain came in, they they were a solid two feet slower just within two hours. And you know, that sometimes can be a tough adjustment to make out there when you're used to dialing in, you know, certain buds going towards race Creek. You're like, all right, that can get away from me and get to six, seven feet quickly. And then you leave it four feet short. You're like, oh, man, it was just one of those kind of weird, you know, you walk off and you're like, all right,

I'm not going to like red flag my putting, but I'm a little frustrated that this is the one week. I really want it to be there. And I would have traded it for the week before in a heartbeat, but you know, that's what happens. And I know it doesn't work this way, but when you won Valero's almost mags, I was like, you're gonna be my pick to win the masters anyways, but it's like winning Val, it just makes it unlikely it is gonna win two in a row.

And do you, but do you still feel crazy confidence when you go to a gustor, or do you feel almost kind of the weight of expectations of knowing you have a great track record somewhere. Does that change, you know, how you expect to perform in any way? I'm wondering what that balance looks like. I mean, this year it was just contained my excitement because I'm finally going back in form. And I've almost, I mean, in 2018, I was all over the map and lost by two shots. I couldn't put it in the ocean

and other tournaments around there. And I mean, I hit some shots that week that, you know, in the trees on right on one and the trees right on two, I mean, shots I had never hit before and I finished two shots away from winning. And so I don't feel like I have to have forum going in there.

And there's a few courses like that and everyone on tour has that. You know, you see guys play really well at similar places. I don't feel like I have to have form going in there. And there's a few courses like that. And everyone on tour has that. You see guys play really well at similar places. And I just feel lucky that I've kind of had that track record there at Augusta. But this year it was like, all right, let's not overdo it. Winning a golf tournament takes kind of a lot out of you

coming off match play. And then there it was less is more, again, try and move the needle 1% each day. And then just fall into the rhythm of the round. Like, to win this golf tournament, you don't have to be leading every single round. Just, it's going to be, you know, we knew it was going to be firmer and faster, we knew they were going to be a little upset at DJ and the fall getting to whatever it was, 20 under. And so it was, okay, this is likely, no matter what happens, going to

be less than 12 under par. Let's just set a goal for three each day. And then if we beat that goal, we're going to win this golf tournament. I think that was the patience and kind of the, again, the less is more mentality was what I was focused on. Not any kind of like, oh, I've got to play well here because I always play well here. I need to win here because it's been, you know, I've had a lot of close calls and not done it in a while.

And it, I really don't like when I get on that first T, you know, as much as that thought those thoughts can kind of be asked. And you could then think about them in the media center, whatever it is. It was very much, you know, things are in a good place. Keep trusting what you're doing and you're going to have opportunities. And then let's cash them. Well, looking ahead to Kewa. I'm, you know, if I'm looking at this golf course, I think, you know, in recent years,

the PGA championship has been long. It's been narrow. It's been thick rough. That doesn't scream Jordan, speed golf course to me, despite, I know you finished third at Beth page, but if I'm looking at Kiowa, I think I see a lot to get excited about. Would you have any experience with Kiowa or what's kind of your expectation headed into the PGA championship this month? I don't. I've never played it. What? What made Rory want to buy eight shots, I think. I remember

watching that. I think it was 2012, but I know it's permuda and I know there's wind and those are two things that I like to see going into a golf course. And then, you know, depending on the weather, it's probably it's likely going to be have the opportunity to play firm. And then those closing holes, I mean those closing holes are what you think about it. At 17th hole is mean at par three. You know, it's just one of those courses where it's not gonna be over until you get on to that 18th green,

that's 72nd green I should say. And I like that, I like that going into it, especially feeling confident driving the golf ball. From there, distance control in the wind is something that I've had to learn to do in Texas growing up. And I feel like it's an advantage in my game. And so I think, again, put the ball in the fairway and then let that skill that's been developed over a lot

of years, that iron distance control kind of work its way in, and it doesn't seem like you're gonna have to shoot 16, 17 under, you know, just by, and this is all, again, I haven't been on property, but this is just kind of looking at it from 30,000 feet. It's just, get some momentum this next week here in town, and then roll in with as much confidence as I've been kind of going into tournaments these days. Well, listen, I'm not trying to channel any of that excitement, but it is past palomcast.

I don't know how much experience you have on this palomcast. Yeah, it's similar. It plays similar, it plays grainy, it can play firmer. That's what you see along the ocean, so that makes sense. I'm honestly not sure how to ask this question, but I think you'd be a great guy to ask in this regard, because I would consider it and you can correct me if I'm also not sure how to ask this question, but I think you'd be a great guy to ask in this regard because I would consider it and you can correct me if I'm wrong. Like you've made a plethora of money both on and off course in your career, your young, you married, your, you know, incredible at golf. Do you ever even ask yourself what motivates you?

Right? I mean, when you get to the point where you're at, where Rory's at, where Justin's at, where you're young and you have this much money and you've had a lot of success. I just, I sometimes wonder when I'm watching, when things aren't going great, why you stress yourself out. I know it's competitive, it's probably the answer, but you see what I'm getting at here is to like, what, why let yourself be so stressed

when you have things so great? And I'm just wondering what that balance is kind of like for you if that makes any sense. Yeah, you know, it's such a crutch to lean on in such a unhealthy way. If you're struggling and you're like, oh, it's fine. I'm not going to have to worry about money. So it's no big deal. It's such a crutch and it's such an inhibitor to actually getting out of a funk.

And I ran into that. I mean, as I think a lot of people do that are in somewhat similar positions, you run into it a little and then you realize, it's such an ego-oriented mindset that's so unhealthy for trying to find mastery in your sport. And I'm using very common golf psychology terms. It's really, it's not difficult for me to play each round as if that's my first tournament ever.

I don't find it difficult because the game, and as you know, it can't be perfected, and it's just so much fun when you start to get on the right side of momentum in the sport, and you start to contend and compete with the best in the world, and we get to play the best golf courses in the world. Not only do we not have to pay, we get paid to play the best golf courses in the world with the best players in the world, and then you we not have to pay, we get paid to play the best golf courses in the world with the best players in the world. And then you start to get some momentum

and you're like, wow, I can beat these guys too. I mean, it's just, it's like a drug. It's so addictive. And I think that's the drive. And I think that, you know, what you can struggle with a little is getting into that, how you spend it and getting kind of, you know, lavish because that's what society says that young

people with money should do, but it's like, man, if you can still, it's actually easier for me at tournaments than it is at home to kind of feel that, that drug, that kind of, that surge for that mastery when you kind of get on the road and you're, and then it's more similar to how it used to be. Well, on that front, you know, if we're going to talk about, you know, the, the, the riches that you've enjoyed, I want to talk about your foundation some too, because it's honestly, I got to say, you may not be taking enough credit for all the things your foundation's doing, just scrolling that on your website and all the, all the all the places all the all the charities that have benefited from your foundation. I wonder if you could kind of take us there as to what what that's been like. Yeah, that was um I think 2014 was when

it was established and it's been really fun. I mean, it's been it's been super cool. I was always pretty hesitant with it because my hero growing up here in Dallas was dirt and visky and Dirk, you know, I'm sure he donates millions of dollars of charity as he should and everybody in similar position should he always for I think it was like 15 years he would go close to Christmas and He would go close to Christmas and he would dress up as Santa and go to the children's hospital here in Dallas. And he would go around to the different rooms and say hi and talk to the kids and all that. And he never had it. Only the only people that knew were the people at children's.

That he was coming and doing it and he would tell them like three days before. And he didn't want it on the news. And finally, you year, they were like, please, please, we want this, other people and children, please, we want this to be out there. So other people see this. It's such a great deed that you do. It was just, it gives me chills thinking about, like talking about it right now,

about him doing that. For no reason other than he thought that that was gonna bring joy to those kids that day. Like, he did it with not only Not only not having media there to be to to show that he's doing it, but purposely trying to avoid media being there. I just thought that that you know when he did something like I'm like man This is so I always thought that that was going to be the best way to do things. And then I just kind of bid into, you have this platform, you've got sponsors that want

to be a part of it. Your platform itself can raise awareness. In other words, I had kind of always looked at it as I'd rather do that dirt route, but then I'm really glad that I've gone, and certainly done things like that, but also established this foundation where we can actually use that platform to help raise funds, also self-fund it, and truly make a difference. And it's just been, it's super cool.

I mean, we had three pillars and then Annie came in and she really wanted to use childhood cancer as well and that's been an awesome, awesome shift for us too to add that fourth pillar. And so yeah, I mean, we're, we do one fundraiser a year every year and other than that, we have sponsors and self-funding and it's been

dozens organizations now we're trying to simplify it into bigger gifts to smaller a smaller number of groups that we want to partner with for a number of years and I think that's kind of what the future of it looks like right now. Well I encourage people to go to JordanSpeedGolf.com and read that about the foundation I think that's that's is very impressive stuff. All right. Next up, our speed round brought to you by AT&T and I promise we are going to let you out of here. All right. What's a, what's a tournament? It can be anywhere in the world that you've never played that you'd love to play someday.

Man. I would say probably like one of those, you're at a PN events in Spain that always looks like that would be fun to travel to. Have you played a Scottish or Irish before? I've not played the Scottish, but I've played most of the golf courses that they're on, so I didn't include that and that did come to mind. The Irish would be a good one. That one, I'd love to see that one become a WGC or something. Yeah, that'd love to see that one become a WGC or something. Yeah, I think that'd be awesome.

I think the Irish, I think Ireland itself, not only from a golf perspective, but I think it's so underrated. What's a golf course you've never played that you'd want to play? What's the first one that comes to mind? County down, right on the same boat. I have not played County down. There you go. Non 12 at Augusta edition.

What's the one Mulligan you'd like to take on any one particular shot in your career? Can I pick one of the shots on 12 at Augusta? Yeah, or do I get to go somewhere else? I hit a ball out of bounds on the fifth at Riviera on Sunday, maybe three, four, five years ago, and I lost the tournament by a shot. And it's a dream come true for me to win at Riviera. I was thinking you might go either one of the puts on, uh, I forget which day it was with Saturday at at St Andrews on number eight.

You four putted number eight. Oh, yeah. Well, do I get an automatic made putter? Well, if you get to redo the first putt and are able to lag at close and you save two shots, you might win the British Open. Do you want 70 feet with the wind blowing 30 hours? I don't want any of that smoke. Okay. I'm just saying, but yeah, I could probably get it in in less British Open. Do you want 70 feet with the wind blowing 30 hours? No, I don't want anything. That's mocha.

All right, I'm just saying. But yeah, I could probably get it in in less than four and get in the playoff. That's a good point. I actually, to be honest, I'd actually take back, I'd either take back that same day, I'd take back either my putt on 17, I had about a five footer I think that I missed

or really my wedge shot on 18. I spun it into the value of sin. That's what's called right. Valley of death. Valley of sin. Valley of sin. What? I would have known what it was called if my putt

didn't live out and actually went in. Someone would have told me, but yeah, that little stretch there, that little 30 minutes, that little like 15-minute stretch I could do over. Well, you did have the bomb that you made on 16 that helped contribute to that, but I was going to say you get to recall one shot that was hit against you can be their match play or a stroke play and a tournament one shot that somebody else hit you're like dude if please try that again you get to recall one is this one come to mind.

First thing that came to mind was I play off against DJ when he cut that big corner in New York and the Barclays he didn't know in the first playoff. Actually, his regulation, I was playing with him. He didn't know he could cover it, but the wind had changed. And so he could cover it. And he went right and he almost lost. I almost won because of that. And then I'm like, if we go back to, I'm like,

I teed off first and hit the fairway. And I see him step and line up 30 degrees further left. I'm like, oh no It's just what I got to hit seven iron into here. He's got flip wedge. That's the one that comes to mind He also would probably take back one that that he certainly let me have their chamber space. So I would uh You guys square you're square there. I think Most embarrassing moment you've had on a golf course as a professional. I think in the U.S. Open at Pebble Beach, when it was at Pebble, I laid up a four iron and it went on number eight. And it, and it, by the way, it's like a hybrid that's short of the, in the tournament in the AT&T Pebble Beach, but in the US Open it was so firm.

My four and went through and I had on the tee, I was like Michael, I can hit this starters, I want right, he's like, yeah, you can hit it as hard as you want to and it went through and then I hit an eight iron, which I was like, hey, we can't go over the screen, it's good club, right? Which again, both of these are like, I'm hitting the shot. I know the information. I know I

don't have to rip them. I'm trying to force it a little bit and I end up making like a double or triple and I kind of went off on Michael and it all got caught on camera and microphone and I after that round I saw it and I had never been more embarrassed for myself ever. I was like wow that not only does that look bad it was bad and boy I mean I was upset but that was just that was awful. And actually later that year in China they always do the caddy caddy of the year they have a big dinner spread and caddy's all drinking mean it's really fun they get a comedian to come do it and and it's a great time and they they brought they were like well caddy's some caddy's had good years some took abuse and they played that clip and I was in the back of the room and I'm like oh my god

I grabbed a beer and left I was like oh I can't watch this again and anyway that's it lesson learned all right last one and we're one, and we're going to get you out of here. What are you most proud of in your career? Probably, um, and I can't say it's something that didn't come naturally. I can't say it's something I worked on, but I would say my fight, I think without the con and not a competitiveness isn't the right term because it's more like the rebound. Like ability to rebound, I think is what I'm most proud of. Ability to be able to say, all right, that was a mess and then have a bounce back stat

be one of my best stats every year. I think is, I can be most proud of that. That says, no matter how upset I get, I'm able to shut it off, and I'm able to just really grind it out and get right back on track the next hole, I think. And I think that just encompasses, like that's how you win golf tournaments. So if I'm gonna say like, I'm most proud of winning the Masters.

It's like, well, what happened that week that allowed that to happen? Well, there were certainly times that came up where you needed that fight. And you have to have it to win. And when it's going poorly, how do you squeak by the cut lines so you get two more rounds and you can work on something?

And I feel like, I just don't ever give up on around. And I think that that's probably what I'm most proud of. All right we're going to finally let you go man thank you so much for all the insight and and everything man and pump to see pump to see at the AT&T this coming week and the PJ Championship and all the weeks coming up but really appreciate the time buddy today. Yes! That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most.

Better than most. Expect anything different. Expect anything different.