No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 441: Mark Calcavecchia

Episode Date: June 9, 2021

Calc joins to chat about RV life, balancing money on the PGA Tour, what keeps him coming back after over 1,000 events, winning the Open Championship, the party after finishing runner-up at the Masters, practice round matches with Phil Mickelson, his relationship with Tiger Woods, and so much more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang Up Podcast. Sully here. Today's episode is going to be with Mark Calcovechia. You may have heard Calc on the 1991 Deep Dive Podcast. We did testify to everything that went down on that final day and how it affected him.

We talked a little bit about that, but you know, didn't want to get too deep into it considering we've already covered a lot of that subject matter. But I had a great conversation with how we qualify for the tour, a money conversation. And Calc is just the best, you know, just very straightforward guy is going to tell it like it is and greatly appreciate it his time. This episode is brought to you by our friends

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So tell me about RV life. This seems to have a pretty big impact on your life and your career, your wife travels with you a lot. You guys seem to be a little more confused as to why more torpros don't adopt the RV life. So what can you tell us about that lifestyle? Well, we just love it, Chris. It's starting to, especially out on the PGA tour now. I know a lot of guys bought buses in the last year or two, so we've been doing it Brennan I for 11 years now. I think we bought our first bus on I was 49. There's a couple things. I mean, first of all, you got to like to drive and luckily I like to drive. Although like Baba and Louis Ustazen and those guys on the PGA tour have drivers, you know, they just fly in private and their

buses all set up for them. But that's not really the true bus life. It's being out on the road and having your dogs with you and just planning where you're going to go and where you're going to stop. And it's nice to have all your stuff in one place. You know, you don't have to pack an unpack and all the other crap that goes with fines. So it's, we just really like it. Yeah, I was gonna say it's gotta be pretty draining, more than draining, you know, just traveling every week, going through airports

and everything and always feeling like you're away from home. So it's gotta, I'm guessing there's a feeling of, you know, a home away from home, it's actually a little home, you know, you're taking on the road that just makes it a little bit feel, not like you're traveling and not feeling that, you know, day to day grind of going in and out of the airports unpacking, packing and having all your stuff in one place, is that fair to say?

Oh, for sure. I think a few years ago in 19, we were gone for four straight months and didn't miss being home once because you do have your own bed and your own clothes and, you know, everything. We've got two bathrooms in the bus, which is huge. In plenty of storage, it is truly home on wheels and you just kind of feel like you're home

every single week, so it definitely uses the stress of popping and unpacking and going to airports and flying and all that other stuff that we've been doing for the 30 years prior to when I turned 50. Yeah, it's a very real thing, very real fatigue, you know, unpacking, packing and, you know, lugging golf clubs and places and things like that. So we get a lot to cover on, it probably makes sense to start somewhere near the beginning and how, especially, you know, hearing how you were introduced to Jack Nicholas at a very young age and how he was watching you hit golf shots at a very young

age. So what was it like for Jack Nicholas to watch you play high school golf tournaments? Oh, that was, if you wasn't such a nice and cool guy, I'd have been way more nervous. But yeah, I grew up in a small town in Nebraska my first 13 years and then we moved down to North Palm Beach when I was 13 from my father's health reasons and I immediately met Jackie Jr. in Junior Golf in the summer of 73 We're exactly the same age so we played junior golf and high school golf against each other for five years and a lot of those times

Jack would come out and watch our match because I was number one on our team and he was number one on their team so we would always play each other and I'm not sure you ever beat me and I'll think you did but I tried extra hard when our necklace was watching and he was always had great things to say to me. At such a young age to play in front of you know presence on the golf course, did it have any effect on you when you got to the big show, playing with Tiger Woods or playing in front of huge crowds or in big moments or other people

that had a big presence? It sure didn't hurt. I know that. That is a lot of pressure for 13 or 14 year old boy to have Jack Nicholas watching you play golf. So it certainly, I'm sure helped as as junior golf and high school golf went on and then I played two and a half years at University of Florida and decided that was it was time to turn pro. But I remember in my first

P.J. Tour event that I watched my older brother took me down to see the 1974 Jackie Gleason Inverary Classic. And of course I watched Jack as much as I could. And I just thought that was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. And I knew right then and there that that was going to be my career. So that's pretty cool. I just knew I was going to do this.

Was that a special degree program that the University of Florida, the two and a half year degree? I'm not that familiar with that. I was on about the six-year degree program, and I knew I wasn't going to last that long, so I honestly really didn't have much intention of ever graduating. Unfortunately, when I went to University of Florida, because I knew I was going to be a golf pro. It was like, I don't know why, but I just knew I was going to be successful. And there were a lot of tough times. Don't get me wrong. My first five years of turning pro were on again, off again, the tour, mini tours, you know, scrounging. For every dynamic

it find. I had some help along the way, but I would literally drive to seven different hotels to find one to save $1 or $2 a night back in the early 80s. Yeah, it was a grind, but I still had faith that I was going to get over the hump and I finally did. Yeah, look at how guys come out on tour these days. I feel like they all, most of them at least come out with very strong support systems, teams, agents and all those things.

What was it like in the 80s, trying to turn a college career into a professional career I have to imagine it's pretty lonely out there at times You know especially if you're putting pennies together like you say you were on the road. Oh definitely It's so different now than it was 40 years ago back in the early 80s You know you rarely saw a guy even if he was a great college player, like house Sutton or Bobby Clampett or Gary Hallberg. They went on to have good careers on tour, but they didn't come right out of the shoot.

And like these kids are today, like Victor Havlund and all these other young superstars that just come right out of the shoot from college and think they're gonna win on the PGA tour. That was never thought in the 80s. And it took a lot of us, you know, four or five, six years to kind of get the hang of it and figured out. But, you know, today, look at this 17-year-old high school junior, one off the lead in the US women's open. I just checked the scores. I mean that's amazing. If I played in the US open on

F-17, I promised you I wouldn't have been anywhere near the lead. If you had turned the paper upside down, I'd have been down on the other end. That's where I'd have been. So it's just different these days. The kids are ready to go. Well what was your path like to qualifying for the PGA tour? I love asking you know guys from different generations how they how they made it on tour. I think I read that you were the youngest ever to qualify for the PGA tour at that point. Is that right? I think I was. Yeah. It's helped Ty try on was younger when he qualified. I think he was 19 or 20. I don't know what he was. I was 21. Back in 1981, when I qualified, they had actually two tour schools, one in July and one in January. And I termed pro in January and then played

mini tours for six months and then got my card at Disney World on the Palm Course in the summer of 81. And just like that, all of a sudden, I was on the PGA tour. They had 25 spots. You need to go through first-stage, second-stage, like in the good old days. But the next five years on again, off again, I went to every single tour school and the times I finished between 125 and 150, I missed it the tour school, but I still had conditional status because I finished in that area in the money list. And then the times I finished higher than 150,

I actually qualified through the tour school. So I actually had a PGA tour status every single year from 1981 on. Wow. That's jarring. Since 1981, you've had status, professional status at the highest level, PGA Tour and Champion's Tour. It's kind of hard to grasp.

But when you got out on tour, did you feel like you belonged? I'm cheating a little bit because I read your interview you did with Jaime Diaz, maybe about 20 years ago, where he talked a little story about Lanny Watkins, maybe kind of giving you a friendly jab, a little bit of a hard time from here and there. But I'm just wondering, it had to be a very intimidating, there's a lot of intimidating personalities out there

on tour and an environment that you're probably on comfort with going into that age. What was that like? Well, Lanny kinda always made you feel like, you know, who the hell are you? And what are you doing out there? I could see that. Do you sneaked through the gate are you? And what are you doing out there? I could see. Did you sneak through the gate with the clubs?

Or, you know, what's going on? He kind of just had that persona about him. And I always tried to, as I got older in my career, three of my 40s, when some of the young guys got on tour and qualified to make a note to go introduce myself and say, hey, because, yeah, Lanny, you know, Lanny was a little bit intimidating back in the early 80s.

And he was a major winner, he was a superstar. So, and I enjoyed watching him play. I'll tell you that. The few times I think I got paired with him. It was a treat. Yeah, there's a story you told about how, you know, he had the pants without the back pockets on him that were all form fitting and you had wrinkled clothes and he kind of jabbed you a little bit about like this is what you got going on here? Yeah, the whole

story. My clothing, my, yeah, my clubs, I had cricket teeth, I didn't get my teeth fixed until 88 I think. So, yeah, kind of long hair, early long hair, and you know, visor, the hair was curled up over my visor. And yeah, I was a little rough looking. There's no doubt about it. Well, what changed? Because we're talking about, you know, bouncing back and forth between Q school

and the 126 to 150 to becoming one of the best players in the world. Something had to have changed in that time period. And this all happened, you know, within the 80s, by the end of the 80s, you're a major champion and one of the top best players in the world. Something had to have changed in that time period. And this all happened within the 80s, by the end of the 80s, you're a major champion and one of the top 10 players in the world. What changed? Well, I always had plenty of distance,

back in the days of woods and balladas and all that other stuff. And like every kid in the 70s and 80s, you had to hit a hook to get it out there anywhere. So everybody hit a hook. And I had a pretty wicked hook and sometimes it was pretty uncontrollable. So I was never a very good driver to ball in terms of accuracy. So I started to work with Peter Costas and early in 84, 1984. And he said, look, you've got plenty of distance, but we need to get you in the fairway.

So he basically got me into a driver's setup that I couldn't hook. That's when the metalwoods first came out, it was a little tiny metal table I made metal woods. It said metalwood on top. It had like six or seven degrees loft. It was a seven degree head, but it even looked like it had less loft than that. And a super stiff titanium shaft. He said, okay, try to hook this and I couldn't get it in the air. Then he said okay move ball up a little bit and your stance kind of stay

behind it and clear your left hip and see what happens and I hit this just towering slight fade I mean it was a little more to it than that but he got me to take the left side of the golf course out of play and just do nothing, but hit fades off the tee. And I pretty much played my entire career like that. So I think that was really the start of when everything in the game started to click, when I started hitting a lot more fairways, my iron game got better as well.

I was always really good around the green with my short game. So I think that was finally in 86, everything pretty much clicked. And I just started playing some really good golf in 86. Yeah, you hear a lot of phrases about guys that hit fades, you know, faders eat fillets, you can talk to a fade, you can't talk to a hook, and you get good, hitting a draw, you get great hitting a fade. I'm just wondering, I think I have a decent understanding of why that is beneficial to move it if you're a right-handed, move it to your right, but how would you describe that?

I would say, you look at all the best drivers now in the world, not Count and D. Shembo, but like Dustin Johnson and Brooks Capka and Justin Thomas, they all faded off the tee. And it's just easier to hit it straight and control your hands and your swing when you're not flipping your wrist at the ball at impact, like you have to do when you hit a draw. It's just that you're just going to hit more fairways. That's all there is to it. Even today when I try to hit a draw, I hit it further, but I don't know where it's gonna start off

and where it's gonna end. I mean, I might hit a pull draw, I might hit a push draw, or a straight one, who knows? But when I hit a fade, I know pretty much for sure where it's gonna start out and where it's gonna end. And I think that's that's the easiest part about these guys now. And they again, distances on an issue. Dustin can probably hit a 20 or 30 yards short of every single drive if he wanted to. But he just sticks with his his fairway shot, you know, with just still

three 20 in the air, you know, number one in the world. I say this every chance I get, you know, on this podcast, but, you know, which is still 320 in the air, you know, number one in the world. I say this every chance I get, you know, on this podcast, but you know, obviously distance is a huge theme on tour. And these guys are hitting it a mile, but they're way strater than a lot of people give them credit for just because their fairway hit number isn't very high. But they're within corridors. They're hitting in the general direction of where they need it to go. And some of them, a lot of them are leaving something in the tank.

Yeah, they do. Yeah, that's very part. Well, you touched on it there, but in 86 things changing, and if I can highlight it here, you made $29,660 in 1984, and that was your highest earning year of anything between 81 and 85. Then you earn 155,000 in 86,

the first year that you won, then 522,087, and then you're kind of off and running. So how much does life change when you struggle on the road for a very long period of time and now you're actually making money? Quite a bit. I bought my first house in Bear Lakes and West Palm Beach in 87. Actually met my first wife out in Phoenix, the Phoenix Open, where I finished third in

87. We got married eight months later. Next year, or an 89, one Phoenix again, and then won the LA Open, and then went right down and bought a BMW for Cheryl, my first wife, and a Porsche for myself. So yeah, I went from living with my parents, trying to grind out many tours in a few years

to having all these luxuries. And I couldn't always afford them, Living with my parents, you know, trying to grind out many tours in a few years to having all these luxuries. And, you know, I couldn't always afford them. But I have my motto has always been, if you want something, buy it and worry about paying for it later. That's not really a good motto, as I've gotten older. That's, I can't tell if you're saying this with, you know, with pride or the little bit of regret of how you've had on this over the years. I kind of, I did okay tell if you're saying this with pride or the little bit of regret of how you've handled this over the years. I kind of did okay for myself, but yeah, I'm still living by that motto and I haven't played in a golf tournament in eight months, so I'm not making any money. So how's it work, once you maybe get used to a different lifestyle and you have some

success in a period of time, but you start to you know maybe struggle at a different period and you're missing cuts and you're spending money and traveling and just wondering if you you know kind of how you manage that flow if you experienced any of that in points in your career. My entire career I've always worried about money and then next thing you know you win a tournament and the most money I ever won in the tournament was 950,000 I think But then all of a sudden, you know, then you forget about money for a year and then You know you buy another car you do this or do that or you don't play very good for a while and then all of a sudden You know like man, I need to make some money back then our purses were a million dollars

I remember when Las Vegas was the first time to be a million dollar purse. And that was, I mean, that was everybody's like, wow, we've hit the big time. We're playing for a million dollars this week, you know, 180 grand for first. And now I saw the purse at the memorial as 9.3 million, you know, every single purse is like at least 8 eight million it seems like. So now that now all these young guys, the young superstars, the walk-in niemens and the victor have ones and I guarantee you they're not too worried about cash. It's just they're playing for so much and they're making so much it's a different ballgame. Well, in your of the age where you know the arrival of Tiger Woods pretty much

a dissect your career, not quite right in the middle, but you know you the age where you know the arrival of Tiger Woods pretty much a dye sex your career Not quite right in the middle, but you know you played for a long period of time before person's just grew astronomically from you know 1996 to 2000 and you know guys love to tell stories of how the PJ Tories to be different the party atmosphere Was maybe a little bit different guys would you know being bars to late at night And you know when they had morning tea times and stuff like that, and it is not like that currently on the PGA tour. Can you pinpoint when you've started to feel like that kind of environment shift out on tour? Yeah, pretty much. You nailed it right on the head, right on between 96 and 2000.

The Tiger Woods effect. And, you know, we all watched it in amazement. And, but the next thing you know, our persons are going up and we're playing for a lot more money. We're playing for $5 million tournaments and everybody had a pretty big smile on their face. And everybody in my age will be the first to tell you, that was Tiger Woods, was the reason why. A quick break here to check in with our friends at woopwoop.com.

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On the Tiger node, I know you guys have had a relationship, you know, in the past, you've played Ryder Cup together, played practice rounds together, you know, I'm curious as to what your current status of your guys relationship is and what the origination of that relationship is. And if one of you can just speak on the cat for a minute. Yeah, we, I first met Tiger when I started working with Bucke Harman in 94. So I worked with Bucke from 94 to 04. And of 04 and of course Tiger I think started working with him Probably about pretty much the same time. I think when he was like 14 So as the years went by when Tiger got old enough to go to Vegas by himself

A lot of times we had practice sessions together with butch and we got to dinner that night or or do some game on or whatever and You know, we got to know each other really well and then I'm never I'm not a real big practice round guy, but of course in majors You got to play a few of them So I always played my practice fans with Tiger because I like to go As soon as you can see I like to tee off then and Tiger like that too because you got at least nine holes in without people bothering him So we always played at the crack of dawn on Tuesdays and Wednesdays of majors. Yeah, we were good friends.

Time went on and we were Ryder Cup team mates. We played it. I thought Curtis strange into parents in alternate shot and Curtis said to me, well, I think you're in the 2002 Ryder Cup. Curtis said, I think you're better at best ball. I said Curtis, I'm 4-0 in alternate shot and my three previous Ryder Cup. Here I said, I think you're better at Bestball. I said Curtis, I'm 4-0 in alternate shot in my three previous Ryder Cups and he had no idea. So of course I played with Tiger and I didn't play very well and Tiger didn't put very well and we lost two and one. So I was kind of a bummer,

but I gave Tiger grief about that for a long time. I think I got tired of hearing it. He actually missed three straight four foot Puts on 11 12 and 13 and then half shanked at nine iron on a part three of the next all of them and as I blame him for that loss But anyway, you know nowadays When I was a member of the medalist tiger just joined a saw him out there some, you know He said hey didn't have didn't have really a whole lot to say. You know, just love being down in Jupiter and live five miles from each other. And, you know, I never see him, which, you know, that's okay. But I gave me the opportunity to, you know, say, hey, and in our last house, we had a two lane bowling alley and actually Eelon brought the kids over to bowl once and I said you know

They're welcome to bring welcome to bring all over and bowl anytime you want and he never took me up on that So, you know, we just kind of dressed it apart a little bit There's a story again this from high medias that you know you hit a range ball or threw a range ball in his direction at the 2001 Masters that had something written on it. Do you remember that story or do you remember what was on there? I can't remember when I wrote though. It was something with an expletive that had something written on it. Do you remember that story here? Do you remember what was on there? I can't remember what I wrote though. It was something with an expletive. It's unclear as to what it was,

but I was just curious if you remember. I know it's been like 20 years. Yeah, I do remember that now. Yeah, it was an expletive. And, you know, it is very funny. When you play practice rounds together and you're walking along with them, he's kind of modern under his breath.

And he'll say screw you calc or in a little bit rougher way but it was just funny and that's what he does you know with Justin Thomas and all the guys that he's friends with now he has gotten a lot better in the last five, seven years. So with the media and talking to people and stuff. Well, on the other side of that, you also played practice rounds and matches with Phil. And this is a time period when Tiger and Phil aren't necessarily the best of friends. And I know everyone's got a Michelson betting story of some kind,

but what was that like? Right. Yeah, Phil and Tiger never played practice round together. So if I wasn't playing with Tiger, Phil would try to drum up some sort of money game with John Houston or John would always play or Ken Green would always play, or whoever. We played for enough.

We played for a thousand bucks, like straight match play. And you can press for half, fun 18 if you're down or you're lost. And then Phil and I played at Augusta and I beat him. And then we had launch and he says, let's go play the back nine for a dime. I want my money back. I said, okay.

And I dust them off again. So that might have been the only two times I beat them, but at least I got them twice that day. It had to pay by the next day cash. Otherwise, it was a hundred dollars fine. Yeah, I was gonna say you got to carry that much cash on you. That has to be paid by cash. There's no checks or anything like that.

Oh, you have to go to, yeah, bring a check the next day and go to finance. If you didn't have enough to pay up, you better get a check quick and or go to the back or do something But yeah, you had to you had to pay fast What's the difference in a putt that say you know the differences maybe a hundred thousand dollars in in earnings like on the 18th green of of a tournament versus one that means you would lose $10,000 to another player do you see what I'm getting at yeah, I do

It's definitely the putt in a match. Right. Because it's your money and you don't want to lose. We all blowpots in the last hole to cost us a bunch of money. And I don't know if the kids today, if they make a bug year, double on 18 to go from third to eighth or tenth or something, I don't know if they look at the paper and try to figure out how much that double cost them, but I always did. So it's just part of the deal. Or you might hold out a bumper shot and say, oh, that lucky 40 footer I made on 18, you know, won me an extra 50 grand or something. So it goes

both ways. But yeah, when you're playing a match and even if it's for two or three hundred or whatever, the difference. So, you know, you're totally nervous. There's no question. All right. So you've just birdied the 18th hole at Royal Trune at the 1989 Open Championship. You are headed to a playoff. What was the conversation like you had with somebody an official or someone that surprised you in terms of what you were in store for when it came to the playoffs? I had no idea.

It was the first year that they instituted the four-hole playoffs. And at the start of the week, you're not really planning what you're going to do on a playoffs. That's so far thinking ahead that you don't lie yourself to do it. And then even the last round, I was I was quite a waste behind Wayne Brady. I made a couple boggies in the middle of the round and Wayne was playing great. And then finally, when I when I flew that chip in the hole

on number 12, left of the green, after that, I hit every shot great and birdie 16 and 18 to tie Greg Mormon. I knew I had to birdied 18 to tie him but Wayne still had five holes left and he still had a two shot lead so he and a bogey in both part three is 14 and 17 and next thing I know we're gonna play off so I asked the guy the R&A guy I said as soon we're going back to 18 he says now we're going to one I said one I said that's a weird hole going back to 18, he says, no, we're going to one. I said, one. I said, that's a weird hole to have a sudden death playoff on it. Yeah, it's the easiest hole in the course.

I just, I couldn't believe it. And then he says, no, we're playing one, two, 17, and 18. I was like, oh, thank God. Phil Corsburg, Birdie, one, and two. Again, and I made a putt on two, yeah as it turned out I had no idea of the four whole playoff but it definitely relaxed me. It helped it helped my little brain a lot knowing that I had a little bit of time to try to win the thing. So you gained some valuable experience at Shrune on the 72nd hole that helped drive some

decision making on the final playoff hole, the fourth playoff hole, that maybe one of your playing partners didn't have the same strategy, and I wonder if you can tell us that story. Right. On my 72nd hole, last hole of regulation, I hit a really good drive. I mean, not my all-time career best, but I hit it really good. timecareer best, but I hit it really good. And when I got up there, it was about five yards short of that little coffin bunker. And then I knew I needed the birdie the hole. And I got nervous. I actually backed off of it. I rarely backed off the shots. So I backed off of it, took a deep breath, and then just stiffed an eight hour in there about three feet to tie Greg at the time.

Well, once we got back out there and the playoff, you know, of course I realized that, you know, if I kill one, especially as pumped up as I am, I can easily hit it in that bunker. And so that was the reason I kind of fanned back then I never hit a three would off the tee. It was either a driver or one iron. a fan to back then I never had a three would off the tee. It was either a driver or a one iron kind of fan might drive out in the right rough. For that reason I was I was worried that I might hit in the bunker and then when Greg Norman teed off he just blasted one right down the middle of the slight shade and I was standing on the left side of the tee and Bruce Edwards said you know beauty Greg and they quit watching it they just started walking. I stood on the side of the tee and I just kept looking at this ball and I thought to myself, it's this thing kicks a little bit right. He's going to catch the end of that that bunker. And shearing off, I stood there watching the rolling and rolling,

kicked a little right and I saw it catch it by about a foot and rolled up the lip and rolled back down. I had pretty good eyesight back then and he had no idea he didn't know until he got up there that he was in the bunker and then when I hit that five iron from two hundred one yards it looked like it was two feet from the hole or three feet so Greg thought he had to try to do something heroic and he ended up hitting into the cross bunker about 50 yards sort of the green and then hit that one in the clubhouse and that was that. So, but yeah, I mean, I was still seven feet. You know, I'm sure he wishes he would have just pitched out and tried to make par.

You know, he's maybe, maybe make it for the win, but it looked like it was really close. So you returned to the open championship the next year at St Andrews. And I'll tell us about a function about a pre-tournament function you're attending that maybe didn't go so well. Well, it went well, but I just, I got roasted for being late, which I didn't know I was late. The invitation said 7.30 for eight. So, to me, that means like 7.59,

but I guess you're supposed to be there before that 7.3030 or 715 or something but anyway again we had some friends that came all over to St Andrews and right before I had to bring the Clare jug back we were drinking champagne out of it and then realized it was getting kind of you know it was already like a quarter to eight so I just gave it a quick rinse out in the sink and brought it back and got there kind of late and everybody gave me a bad luck and Yeah, I guess they weren't too happy that this the clear jug still had some champagne and water in it mixed together but anyway

Yeah, I ended up getting roasted and in the and the tabloids the next day or two, defending champion late to the past champions dinner or whatever. So it was actually kind of funny. Yeah, I mean, they'll roast you for pretty much anything right there. So yeah. So what's it like for the top players to go over and quickly adjust at the competitive level, adjust from, you know, hitting high normal-ish shots on the USPGA tour to playing

Link's Golf with so many more elements and different turf, different conditions, you know, just a whole bunch of different things you got to think about and deal with. Is that something that took a while to learn? Yes, and now it's, like every PGA tour player, it's ever played on the PGA tour, has great feel and great imagination and great sight of what they want to try to do. Now, sometimes even if you've never been to Scotland

before and it's rock hard, you get out there and you just say to yourself, well, I got 180 to the hole and 150 to the front. I'm in the rough. I'm going to hit a little bit of a flyer. I probably got a land of 20 hours short of the green. So you just hit a wedge and you just watch it, one, one, one, one, one, bounce and roll on the green and you go, well, you know, that worked out pretty good. So you just kind of take a guess a little bit, but then you get a little bit of a feel for it. And when my first open was 87 at Mirfield, and I had a great time, I think I finished 10th or 12th somewhere around there.

And I said, I just love this kind of golf. I love the look, I love the atmosphere, the crowds were amazing. The course was amazing. And then of course, in 88, I think I shot 76, 84, and hated it. I was like, ah, this is a dumbest thing I've ever seen. But then now I actually really love Royalism. That was a year of Royalism in 88. And my first practice trying to turn in 89, I was really playing well.

I had one probably, I think five tournaments in about an eight month period, counting Bank of Boston, Australian Open, Phoenix, LA, something else. Maybe a team thing in December. But I was just playing really well. And my first practice round, I just loved Royal Trone every hole I liked and was just in the weather was perfect all week. So it was just one of those deals where I played great and you know I got a few great breaks to go along with it. Well what a great tournament to win you know in terms of a place you can always go back to or for a long period of time, you can go back to and continue to compete in

because it's a little different than Augusta, which has become very long and extremely demanding off the tee yet open championship courses inspire a more creative style of play and a style of play that helps players later in their career still be able to compete somewhat relatively to the rest of the field. Is that fair to say? Yeah, it is.

Actually, a few years ago at Carnegie Usti, it was awesome. The fairways were faster than the Greens. And if there was ever a setup that I could or should have played well on, it was that one. And I missed in the cut. Well, I doubled, I finished Bogy doubled to miss the cut by I think Three or four, but I made one birdie and 36 holes and that was from a half an inch on that easy part Five in the back nine and my bunker shot hit the pen and hung on the left

So in other words, I didn't I didn't come close to making a pot over three feet and 36 holes So it was that was frustrating. But it's a chance for your question. Yeah, that kind of set up. My last open, that's another whole story. It'll be next year at St. Andrews. It was supposed to be last year at Roast St. George's, because you can play up until you're 60. Of course, COVID canceled that. This year I had my back operated on in January and haven't played since. I had my L-405 fuse together.

So I wrote a nice big old long letter to the RNA and Martin Sloumber's, the chief or the captain, said, well, I gotta bring it up to my membership committee, blah, blah, blah, and I'll get back to you. And, sharing off, they got back to me about a month and said, we really try to take care of our past champions. And I know this has been a tough go around for you with COVID. And then having your back operated on.

And I said, my family has never, my kids have never been to St. Andrews. And it was, it was almost a tear-dricker of a letter. And sure enough, they, they, they, they allowed me to grant me to play my last open even at, even though I'll be 62 at St. Andrews next year. So I can't wait for that. Well, I was going to say it's no wonder you, you know, you hated it. I live them when you missed the cut in 88, but I see your T9 at the age of 52 at the 2012 Open Shapy Chip at Lidham. It's amazing how that works though, you know. It is.

You know, that's the answer I get. All my amateurs every week, you know, and they ask you, you know, what's your favorite course on tour? And I usually say wherever I, wherever I went at, you go to a Gus, and if you, you know if you get on the wrong side of the Humps and you don't play very good and you miss the cut you just you seriously can't wait to get out of there. I always said about Augusta it was my favorite place to get to and my favorite place to leave because it was kind of frustrating so but I all golfers feel the same way you know if they have a good tournament and play well they they love the place and can't wait to get back next year.

And if they play terrible and miss the cut, you know, especially if it happens three or four years in a row, then you just kind of say, laugh, forget that place. You know, I'm gonna go, go where I like. Well, on the Augusta note, you know, for at least my generation, or at least myself personally, I know the champions are going back many, many years, but I don't know all the close calls.

You know, so just reading and hearing about your close call at Augusta in 1988, I wonder if you can take us to that week and what you remember about the end of that tournament. Yeah, I basically had my right arm in the jacket or so I thought, sanded it where it was tough. I think sand the only shot seven under and I think I was second at six under it was it was windy the greens were hard and

fastest they can get and it was just it was a tough week and anyway I parred the last two or three holes I made a good up and down on 18 from just short of the grain and at the time I had a one shot lead but right when I finished 18 Sandy made it, I'm off the back of the 16th green which I later found out when they took me to the Butler cabin and they showed me a replay of it. It says watch this putt Sandy makes you know he had to hit it straight left and loop it down the hell and made it. And then right when I got in the cabin, he says sandy just hit it in the lip of the fairway bunker

on 18, like really pretty close to the lip. I said, hmm, okay. So I sat there for a minute and I thought, well, he'll find a way to make par. So just get ready for a playoff. So I wasn't thinking that I was gonna win right then. I was thinking he way to make par so just get ready for a playoff. So I wasn't I wasn't thinking that I was going to win right then. I was you know thinking he was going to make par somehow and uh and either they get ready to go down number 10. And uh when he climbed in there and I saw the lie it was sitting super clean and

back then nobody in the world hit it as high as Sandy Lyle. And he picked the seven iron. Didn't touch a blade of sand you know his eyeballs were as big as they can get when he's watching this thing fly and I said oh no he hit a great shot and it landed just past the hole rolled up the ridge and then rolled back down so about 12 feet and I knew he was gonna make it I told everybody he's gonna make this he was one of the best putters in the world at that time too and And Sharon Offie made it. So I handled everything really well,

did all my press and stuff and went back to the house and really didn't think much about it. We had some friends there here from North Palm Beach. We had actually two houses side by side and I just had a party and a bunch of beers and a great night. And what I told the press was, well, you know, it's disappointing I would have loved to won,

but this is only my second master's. I'm gonna have about another 20 go arounds out of the least. And I'll win this tournament one day. So that's what I said in 88. Of course, I never did win it, but I had a few other, a few other top 10s in O1. I think I tied for fourth. I had a chance at your.

Well, you know, you're known over the years for being a very honest and direct person. And, you know, I think sometimes when you read, you know, some headlines you've made over the years, it can be kind of just a bit jarring just to hear it so directly to say like, you know, flat out, you think you could have been better, you just didn't want to work hard enough at it.

I find that honesty refreshing, but at the same time, I just want't want to work hard enough at it. I find that honesty refreshing, but at the same time, I just want to kind of hear you speak to, you know, what that means when you say, I think it makes a lot more sense when you hear an answer like that in a more long form presentation. Yeah, it's true. I mean, well, I don't know if I could have been number one,

but my first wife, Cheryl, thought that I could have. And I think I was, I spent at least an amount of time in the top 10 in the world around six or seven or eight or something, but she says, you know, you could be number one in the world if you work harder. And I said, I don't care about being number one in the world, I'd rather come home and spend two days with my kids and just sit and play with them

and see my friends and hang out with my kids. And sit and play with them and see my friends and hang out with my kids. And that's kind of the way I always was. You know, I certainly worked hard enough to be a good player, but I didn't have what it took mentally or physically to do all that work to get to the top. It just was never that important to me for some reason. I love winning golf tournaments and I should have won more than I did, but as far as the world ranking has I'd never really paid attention to them too much. Well, it's really interesting to marry that with the fact you made

I think 761 career PGA Tour Stars. It's not like your work ethic wasn't there. I would call that a pretty strong work ethic, but maybe by conserving some energy when you were home, maybe you prevented yourself from getting burned out. I mean, you're talking, you know, 229 starts on the Champions Tour or something like that. We're talking about 1000 Tour events, you know, over 40 years. I think that there's probably something there, no?

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah, I want to stretch is where I played played a lot and then I took some time off, but I kind of enjoyed having the freedom to do what I wanted to do as far as my schedule. And that's part of figuring out what's best for you and what's best for your career. So, yeah, that's a lot of tournaments. And as I sit here today, I'm like eight tournaments short of 1,000 total, count on the PGA Tour and the Champions Tour.

And when you think about how many golf tournaments I do it's a play in. It's a kind of a frightening amount of golf tournaments. And how fast it's gone by is the other thing that's kind of blown my mind. I can't believe I played that much and have traveled that much. And you know, been back in the play 31 opens, you know, and all the places I've been, it's just kind of hard to believe.

I did all that. Yeah, I just Googled it. Mark Brooks has the most career PGA Tour starts with 803, which is, you know, I knew you had to be up there somewhere. But I'm curious. I tagged you in on it on Twitter when we posted our 1991 deep dive podcast that you participated in last year gave us some great answers and great insight.

You know, we already talked, obviously, in great detail about what happened to you at Q and I was just curious if listening back to that would be something that at all would be therapeutic or something you would want to avoid. And in all the research I did leading up to that interview and everything and leading up to this, you know, your answers about that day are similar. And you've always faced the music on all that.

And I'm just super curious as to, you know, how you marry the, you know, the fact that you had a great week, the fact that the US team won. And this, this thing that is, you got to be something you're asked about all the time. And whether or not you're at peace with it, at terms with it, or what your current relationship is, with that whole story arc, constantly getting asked about it, and here I am asking you about it for a second time. Yeah, now I'm fine with it, I really am.

It's, I remember it like it was yesterday, and I watched a lot of the PGA a few weeks ago, and first of all, I thought it was fantastic that Phil won. I think everybody was cheering for him. That was quite an accomplishment at his age. But yeah, I got a few shout outs for my shot on 17. And some grief on Twitter for it. Guys calling the shank and I said,

well, hold on a minute, it wasn't a shank. It was a, you know, I don shank and I said, well hold on a minute, it wasn't a shank, it was a, you know, I don't know what I said, I was a smothered delofted get-away head of a choke job of a shot. I just tried to hit it so low, I just got so far ahead of it and just smothered it right in the ground basically. But yeah, it was, that wasn't good. And then, you know, what a lot of people forget is I still had a two footer to win the match. You know, if it would have been the earlier in the round to tie a hole, I'm sure Monty would have given it to me. But it's to win the match and of course I missed it. And then I hit two really good shots on 18, but I hit a three hour just over the green.

And that's, that's the worst place you can hit it. I should have taken one last and just tried to kind of get anywhere on the green and that's that's the worst place you can hit it. I should have Taken one last and just tried to kind of get anywhere on the green and two putt and get out of there, but Anyway, it was yeah, I was I was shaking off about it afterwards. There's no doubt I went out in the beach and bulb my eyes out and You know, you know, I remember earlier in the in the in the our podcast or talk that I said that you know a lot of golfers, almost every golf run in the PJ tour has a feel or a feeling or a great imagination and stuff. I just knew where I had a feeling that that half a point that I should have, you know, the whole point I should have won instead of having to match. It was going to come down to that and sharing off of it

did when Bernhard had that five footer on the last hole for them to win. And, you know, somehow he missed it. I was on my knees out in the fairway with paint steward. He had his arm around me. And all of a sudden it heard the crowd erupt. He jumped up and started hugging me.

We won. We won. We won. And won, we won. And then I basically don't remember a thing after that. Yeah, and I remember, you know, the uplifting part of the story, he told as well is all the letters you got from people, you know, in San Antonio the next week and the support you got from your playing partners.

And if you do listen back to it, you'll hear that support from your teammates, you know, and saying what a tremendous effect you had on the team and Dave Stockton, your captain, to this day says he doesn't think they we would have run one the rider cup or you guys would have won the rider cup if you hadn't gotten that five up lead and, you know, every golfer at every level has done something at some point that they just say, I can't believe I just did that. That's the only thing I couldn't have done. And yet you had to go through that on, you know, the biggest stage in golf. And I'm just, I don't know if it's something that, you know,

I'm curious if you feel like you've recovered from it or if it took a while to recover from it, or if it affected you in professional golf after that at all or in other future rider cups. No, it's, I've gotten over it completely. And here's why I shouldn't have taken it so hard. Like you just said, everybody at some point in their career completely screws up a tournament and doesn't win when they should have. And I should have won that match and I didn't. And I just took it really hard.

And I was just scared to death that it was gonna cost the US the right or cup that we needed to win so desperately. And I was too much for me to handle, but I should have handled it better. And I kind of mad at myself that I didn't, but I'm an emotional guy. I've always been emotional. I cry sometimes when I screw up and turn them it and go back to the room and try to figure out why. And I'm sure a lot of the guys do too.

So what Dave Stockton said was great. He said, you know, I mean, Kyle got everybody fired up when they saw he was four or five up and kind of sent a good vibe all the way back through the other matches and whatnot. And, you know, I did get two and a half points at week and

you know, as it turned out, that was, that was pretty good. It was good enough. So in that was, that was pretty good. It was, it was good enough. So in the end, it was all good. So I got this from, from someone and I think you're probably going to figure it out pretty easily, who I got this from, but something about a story of, you know, and especially painful kick and you hit some fixed object that may have caused you quite, somewhat serious injury. And I'm wondering if you can guess who I got that from as well.

I've checked a few things in my career, but the one that hurt the most was in 1987, PGA behind the 13th green, three pot of dirt. It was 110 degrees out, as hot as it can get, and Palm Beach Garden, Florida, in the summer, you know, I was playing at home, and I really wanted to play well and I screwed up the 13th hole.

I probably three potted or something and this is the side of the kick, the TV tower, the metal pole on the TV tower. And yeah, of course I broke my toe. And this was the first round and I could barely walk it was it was I had to cut the end of my shoe out and I told my mom I said I got a WD there's no way I can walk 18 holes and she was so mad at me for kicking the TV teller and and break breaking my toe that she said I don't care if you got a crawl around the course you're you're playing so yeah, good old mom. She was she was pretty mad at me about that one But yeah, I've kicked a few things. I was I wasn't of her in my day. Oh, that's for sure

Well, do you know who who told me to ask you that? No, Ken Green maybe no, it was it was faxin Red stuff facts. Yeah, well Well, what's something that you know looking back on your career, what's something you would tell a younger version of yourself for, you know, set a different way? What's something you would have maybe done differently? I really wouldn't have done anything differently. I definitely would have taken things a little bit lighter.

Sometimes, you know, I was a little bit too intense, I think, with what happened to me on the golf course, especially if it turned out bad. I just, I really, I think with what happened to me on the golf course, especially if it turned out bad. I just really, I wouldn't say I brought it home and kept it with me all night, but sometimes I was pretty grumpy for several hours after a round, and I've actually learned that from a lot of these younger kids that I'm, you know, I know they get mad and they're upset with the way they finish or something, but, you know, they just drop it and move along. And I wish I'd have been better at doing that. I'm always curious what guys' motivations are to, you know, continue playing professional

golf for so long, you know, it's the one sport you can play professionally for 40 plus years or whatever it's been. Is it competition? Is it, you know, is it desired to still be out on the road? What keeps you going? Yeah, a couple of things. The force break that we had last year from from COVID when we all had five months off that we didn't really want off during that period. I didn't play for two months. You know, there was no reason to really.

And then I started playing in practice and I really missed competing internaments. And then I thought to myself, well, this settles any thought I had of retiring because I was bored stiff, basically. I really was bored. And then I see guys like Bernhard Langer, who's motivating at 63 years of age, what he's still doing on our tour. I've been battling back issues and that's when I decided after I had COVID in September

and then at my back spasm set in again in October at a tournament in Carrey, North Carolina. And I said, I've gotta get my back fixed. I'm just tired of this. And so then I had the surgery January 4th, five months ago today. And it's been a lot harder than I thought it'd be recovering from this. I think I've got a few more months,

but I still want to play. I'm tired of watching it on TV. I want to get back out there. They're one of my favorite places at the Champions Tour this week in Des Moines, Iowa. I love Des Moines, Iowa, and I wish we were there on our bus right now, playing in the tournament.

So just those feelings alone, you know, make me want to get back out there and keep playing for at least another four or five years. And that's right now, that's my goal. I think that's really free and cool. I mean, we're talking about 41, 40 year, whatever it is, you know, year grind, and you're dying to get back out there. It's awesome.

We're so lucky to be able to do it. I mean, you know, you look at some of these, a lot of these other sports and they just can't, they've got nothing to do. And we're so lucky to have our tour that we have and to play and compete on a weekly basis. It's a blast. Well, you mentioned COVID there.

You had, you had quite a bout with COVID. It sounds like I'm wondering if you could tell us about what that experience was like. Yeah, it was rough. I didn't like it. In fact, I got to a point when I was in the hospital for a day that I thought this might be it. I felt that bad.

I was just like, I mean, I just started praying to God I said God I can't go this way. Can I this is not how it's gonna end for me is it and It was that bad so Yeah, I felt awful and Finally got the right meds and and Started feeling better a couple days after that hospital visit But yeah, my brother my older brother actually had it worse than I did. He was in the hospital for six days on a ventilator the whole deal.

So it was, I know he was scared too. So it's a nasty virus. I'll tell you that. Well, this is one of the few questions I don't have an answer that I'm expecting. I'm just curious mainly to pull on you being one of the more honest people that we have out in the game and kind of looking at what's happening with Bryson and Brooks on the PGA tour in terms of feud. So, what if you ever had any teams that you could tell us about in your career or anything

you know about? You can name names or not name names if you want, but I was just curious to ask that. Yeah, that'll be interesting to see how that goes at the rider cup with those two. They might have to have separate locker rooms and team rooms for those two or something. You know, yes and no. I mean, there were players that irritated the heck out of me that I hated playing with.

But it wasn't anything that, you know, I couldn't stand. It was just, and there's still a few guys that, and I'm not gonna name any names, sorry. But yeah, there's guys that, that I kinda hope I don't get paired with on a weekly basis. And I'm sure there's a ton of guys that don't wanna get paired with me either. So it goes both ways.

But never had any real feuds. Hubert Green helped me out a lot in my early days and the early 80s. He actually reported me because I went to the club at Hartford off the 15th tee into the bushes and turned off if he didn't tell an official and get me reported. And I asked him why he did that. I said there wasn't anywhere near any people or anything and he says because you know that's not how you act and I want you to learn a lesson from this and actually we became really good friends after that. I told him I appreciated it. There's a

few other guys George Burns I guess I have name and names. It was never one of my favorites back in the day. JC Sneed actually helped me out a lot as well back in the early 80s. And I thought he was kind of a hard-ass, but as it turned out, I really, really liked JC Sneed. So there's a lot of little, little, little, taking stories like that. They come to mind, but no major, no major fudes, never gotten a fight. Never, never had to stare anybody down in the parking lot and, you know, screaming at me. So it's been pretty smooth.

Well, if I remember right, the PGA Tour wrote out the player impact program, you know, in recent months. And I remember you maybe not being a fan of it or maybe not. Is it something you're well versed in and understand and you don don't support for whatever reason I'm curious to kind of hear your feedback there. Well, I'm not a fan of it, but I'm not sure I fully understand it either. Yeah, it just it just seems kind of ridiculous to me to hand out a bunch of money to, you know, the 10 most popular guys on the PGA tour that are already multi gazillionaires when that you know

and now I see they finally have are gonna raise the corn cherry to a purses next year and then by year after that they're all gonna be at least million dollar tournaments so that's that's good they're way late on that I'm sure every single player in our tour would agree that we're not playing for enough money either but again we're so lucky to be playing. So whatever we play for is good, but obviously more would be better. I just thought it was kind of a weird thing to come up with. I don't know who dreamed that up whether it was Monahan or who it was, but yeah.

Yeah, it's an interesting topic, especially timing wise, right? Because I can see where you're coming from yet. At the same time, I see very real threats, you know, from the Super Golf League and Premier Golf League threats to the PGA tour, especially to the top players, you know, that large sums of money potentially being thrown at them yet. I've always said, you know, when Tiger Woods and William

McGurt tie for eighth, they both get the same paycheck despite one of those two guys putting a lot more butts in the seats. And, you know, doing having some incentive for the top players to want to stick around on the PJ tour and finish out their careers there makes a lot of sense yet at the same time. If we have $40 million to spend, is that in the biggest hurry to send it to the top players that are earning the most money, I see where you're coming from there. But it's an interesting, I'm super curious to get guys feedback that aren't participating in it necessarily.

Yeah, I totally understand your point too. I mean, that is a good way to put it for sure. So we'll get you out of here on this and this question is entirely selfish. But I'm wondering if you remember playing at Riviera Country Club in Dublin, Ohio sometime between the years 2004 and 2007? Yeah. I cleaned your clubs that day. No, I was one of the cartboys there.

Yeah, Lisa Cox, my wife's best friend, I was a member there and Lisa Renda and I and I got by him a bivin snotty played and I remember the course well It's not even it's not there anymore. Is it no? It's gone. It's breaks my heart. No I thought it was a good driving course. I enjoyed it Yeah, that was a one and and done at Riviera and Dublin. That's a it's a very, very small world. I can't believe you clean my club. Did I give you a tip? At least, I don't think you did. I think I felt a grudge against you for 15 plus years or whatever it is, but we can call it even after this podcast. You get to the bar, get a beer or something.

Well, thanks again for joining us. I love to do this again with you sometime when when are we going to see you back on the golf course? My new goal. I'm shooting for the second week in August up in Calgary. Awesome. So he'll be in Jacksonville in October then hopefully. Definitely. All right. Well, we'll see you there. You got to thank so much for joining Cal. Take care. Anytime. Be the right club today. It's gonna be the right club. Be the right club today. Yes!

That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different.