No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 450: Stewart Cink

Episode Date: June 30, 2021

Stewart Cink joins to chat about how he got his golf game back, his mental journey through a career spanning decades, his "mountaintop of peace," how he increased distance, the 2009 British Open, dealing with the close call at the 2001 U.S. Open, and so much more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up Podcast. Sully here got an awesome interview with Stuart Singh, two-time winner at the age of now 48.

He was 47, when he won twice so far already this year on the PGA tour. Just talk a lot about mental golf, talk about the open championship, his close call at Southern Hills in 2001. The guy can tell some stories too. Man, I really enjoy this one, especially his insight into mental golf. We do have pretty deep on that, and I think you guys will find that pretty interesting. No lying up is of course brought to you by our friends

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Is it safe to say what we're seeing out of you in 2020 and 2021? Is it a career renaissance? Is that a good description? I don't think so. I've heard that word this year from various places, but I think I'm back to playing the way that I feel like I should be playing

and not like some kind of a fountain of youth. I just don't feel like I've gotten what I could out of my game for the last like, I don't know, eight years or so until this year. Finally, it's been a little bit more like me, if that makes sense. It does. And I just, I'm curious, you know, as I, I'd say maybe 10 years ago, I was a, not a very understanding sports fan when I was 24 years old. And as I get into my 30s, I'd say maybe 10 years ago, I was a, not a very understanding sports fan when I was 24 years old. And as I get into my 30s, I'm married now. I don't have kids. I now

have much more appreciation though for life. And the things that are going on in people's life, especially professional athletes, lives. And how hard is to maintain a really, really solid professional golf career for decades and decades? Did life get in the way at all? I mean, how would you, why would you describe that, you know, your career for decades and decades. Did life get in the way at all? I mean, how would you, why would you describe that, you know, your career for a few years, you say you weren't playing like yourself? I can't say life got in the way at all

because if you go back and look at the best players in history, let's just start with Jack Nicholas. He had a family from a very young age, growing kids, a full house, and all the responsibilities that being a designer and the number one player and the most popular player and did his slow them down. Heck no, it didn't slow them down. And so you can't point to that. Now, okay, fair to say that Nicholas didn't exist in the social media world where the new cycle is just incredibly fast and it's more like a new spin cycle than a cycle. And you can get thrown

out of that really quickly. But life is life. And if you put your emphasis in the right places, then some people, hey, some people operate best with that being their job. I don't think that's necessarily the best thing for everybody, but if you put everything in proper place in the priority list and you give a proper amount of respect to the family, the job, the hobbies, the downtime, the uptime, whatever you want to call it, then I don't see any reason why family or life should get in the way. So no, I think it was for me. I think I actually had a little bit of a hangover from winning the Open Championship. I think probably I felt a little satisfied, maybe 5%

where I felt like I've earned a little bit of a break. And then you take a 5% rest and you get blown by. And my golf wasn't in great shape and score showed it. That's interesting. Did the way you won the O9 opened contribute to that at all? I mean, I'm curious, and then I was playing again this more later, but you know, there's, I'm still amazed and I've been this guy in the past

that you know, still looks at the screen when you come on and say, damn you Stuart Sink, you took it away from Tom Watson and I'm sure you've dealt with that for a decade and I'm sure your perspective on it's very different than a lot of people's perspective on that but is do you think that contribute to it at all in any way? No, not a bit. I mean it didn't at all. It felt like any other tournament when I was in it. Now looking back of course and it's not completely true that it felt like

any other tournament. It didn't feel like any other opponent when I was playing against Thom Watson. It felt like and I tournament. It didn't feel like any other opponent when I was playing against Tom Watson. It felt like, and I recognized that, like, wow, what a historic moment this could be. But I also understood that for me, it was a historic moment because I had a real good chance to win my first major. And so it didn't matter if it was

Watson or Tiger Woods at the time. I was wanting to win and I was gonna play my best no matter what. And yeah, I've heard that a lot. I've heard I'm the Watson killer and I killed everybody's dreams and I killed the dog and all that stuff. But most people say that in jest. I know that there's some sincerity in it that they really didn't want Watson to win, but that's okay.

That's sports. If I played for the Yankees, I would understand that the Red Sox fans wanted them to win. So I get it. It's fine, but never really any hard feelings. And certainly Watson's won his share. And I think he was generously happy for me, you know, to be my first major and to win the open. He knows how much that meant to me.

And he wanted to win too, but it was just an awesome time. I definitely, I definitely do not think that playing against Watson contributed in any way to me having a little bit of a slide after that. It happens to a lot of players when they win their first major in that particular time in their careers, in their 30s. I'd been playing on toiling away on the tour

for a long time, having some success. And the major alluded me for a long time. And then boom, it happened when I was 36 years old. And it happens to players. So if you go back and look at a lot of players, they experience a little bit of a dip after that major in that time. Well, and the only thing I was gonna say

to close that out was I found the reaction strange because it wasn't like you birdied the last four holes to steal it from them, you know? It was kind of, you know, he bogeyed the last hole and he had a chance to win and then the playoff was not that close. I never really saw you as the Watson killer. More so of anything. I think it was so frustrating that he didn't

close it out himself. But yeah, I was exactly. I felt like I was just I out energy Tom Watson. And you know, I understandably so. I mean, I played well through the finish line and in the playoff, I probably was playing my best at the very last moment of the playoff. So I could have gone 18 more holes that day and maybe even gotten better. And I think Watson, the way he finished, I think indicated a little bit of fatigue and who wouldn't be. I mean, oh my gosh. There's a lot. It takes a lot out of you to be in contention and to have the spotlight on you, like it was on him that week. And for him to make it that far was just unbelievably remarkable. And then I sensed on the 18th hole like it was on him that week and for him to make it that far was just unbelievably remarkable.

And then I sensed on the 18th hole that it was my time to go in there and wrestle that away from whoever it was going to be to happen to be Tom Watson. Well, back to the present day, you know, a lot's been made out of some distance you found in your in your late 40s here. And I want to I want to get into where you find that, how you find that. And if at all all that kind of distance can translate to Ammiters. But what would you say you owe your recent good play to? Because if I'm looking at the stats, it's really your approach play that kind of

has returned to your peak parts of your career, your driving's getting back more towards neutral, but it's not a dominant number out there. So what would you say it is that you owed your reason success to? It's a lot of things. It's a lot of things this year. Gosh, I mean, it goes back really to, I had an injury. The first real injury in my career where I missed playing time in 19, where I had a back

problem and it was causing some issues, had to investigate. A lot of things. First of all, what was the injury? What do I need to do to improve it, to become more flexible in certain areas, stronger in certain areas? Do I need to change my focus and my exercise, my golf swing technique?

Indigging for those answers, I think I positioned myself to be able to make some changes in my swing in 2020 and then 2021 to increase distance and take advantage of, I'm six foot four, I got a big potential for energy and width of my swing and and that injury helped me get into the kind of shape that I needed to be, not that I'm not running marathon, I'm not drastically overhauled my fitness, but I did get stronger in key areas and get more flexible in key areas and start paying attention to areas that help me make the little changes that I needed to make to pick up that extra 5-6 miles power ball speed and 20 yards of carry which there's just no substitute for that in the golf in the game of golf at the top level. You cannot substitute power. I don't think that age really had anything to do with it. I think I just I got a little bit inefficient with my technique in my form and I rediscovered it to use a kind of a

cliched phrase, but I just rediscovered something that was already there. And I definitely think there's something that can be learned from the Amateur Golfor. By the Amateur Golfor, from the way I've been able to change the things this year, I just simply, I changed the delivery of the club to the ball, like my tack angle went from negative to positive. I was able to take a little bit of loft off my driver, which it turned my strike to more of a direct blow instead of a slight glancing blow. You know, like wedge doesn't go as far as the driver, because you're hitting it with a lot more of a glancing blow all that loft on the club. And I was able to get more of a direct transfer of energy onto the ball, which just immediately translated into faster ball, higher launch,

lower spin rate, which, I mean, that's the recipe for, if you want to bake a cake and the cake tastes like more distance, that's the recipe. Well, because nowhere in there did you say anything about swinging harder, right? And I wasn't expecting you to either, but it also just sounds like it is just optimization more than it is a true physical transformation, right? It's because everything you're talking about there is very track man intensive, right? These numbers are telling you this, they need to be saying this and you basically are tweaking until you get to that ultimate optimization.

Is that a fair way of describing it? I couldn't have said it better myself, honestly. You look at track man numbers, you look at what the ball's doing with your eyeball and your distance and all that, you know, in actual real space. And then you say, well, what does track man suggest? Like how can I get more closer to optimized

with the speed I have right now? And as soon as you do that, and you start gaining confidence because your accuracy comes along with this naturally too, once you start seeing that ball take off faster, higher, and straighter, then your clubbed-ped speed naturally increases too because you've got just more confidence. And you just, it's like you can't wait to send that ball on its way.

That's interesting, yeah. I hadn't really thought of it that way because it sounds like like you know you're talking a little bit about flexibility but it's not it's not necessarily weightlifting either but on the physical side of it you know is there anything else that's really contributing to that to the distance increase. It is a little bit of weight lifting and it is a little bit of strength and or stretching and flexibility. It's all of those things it's balance. It's balance. It's how to transfer your weight property in which muscles accept a weight shift on the way back

and on the way through. How do you properly turn with your spine angle so that you keep a safe environment? You can rotate very safely and very dangerously. And I was rotating a little dangerously and causing a little stress on my lower back. You know, it's a lot of different things, but my trainer, I started working with Cornell Drieson, a guy who's been working for a lot of players out here over the years, and he

really helps open my eyes to the way the body works mechanically and the golf swing, biomechanically in the golf swing. And what areas need to be stronger for speed and for stability of the club face and the swing plane. And also what areas need to be stronger and more flexible for safety and keeping inflammation down and letting the body absorb the pounding that it takes, swing after swing after swing when you're practicing and get ready

for major tournament golf. If you can't tell, I'm working on some speed stuff. So this is fantastic notes to be given for all this. But on the opposite end of the spectrum, you have a technique going on short putts, which I think is jarring the first time anybody sees it. I want to know how that started, what the reaction has been like to what you've been doing

over short putts. And also what the limit is, distance-wise, on when you'll kind of do the stutter into the ball. Well, I wish I could answer by saying like, oh, yeah, I spent two weeks with a bear trainer up in Maine. And he learned that this, the bears react well by vibrating, you know, but know what? I can't. The answer is it is like a stutter.

And I have no idea when it's coming. And I wish I didn't happen, but it does. And instead of trying to like step on it and stop it from happening, I just let it go and try not to let it be, you know, a bother. And it can be pretty startling. I'm sure I feel like I get frozen up sometimes over a little short putts, but hey, I don't care. It's just, it's not, it's nothing intentional.

Well, but the more, when I see it, I'm like, you know what, everyone before they go shoot a free throw, no one does it from a totally standstill motion, right? You spin the ball a couple of times, you get into like an athletic flow, and I'm like, well, wait a sec, like why do we just get amazingly still over, you know, short puts, long puts, medium puts,

or golf shots in general? It kind of just looks like, I guess I kind of thought it was more of an intentional thing than an unintentional thing of something you were consciously doing to get your muscles working, to get your brain out of the way maybe on shorter puts. No, it's nothing intentional. I think it's more just a, I think it's probably

the subconscious wanting that little bit of attention release, kind of like a waggle. You know, it's an involuntary waggle that happens a little bit. And if it was a big problem, I would have certainly addressed it and I'd be more concerned about it, but I don't see it as a real big problem. It's kind of just part of my routine that shows up here and there, and it's not really distracting, but it's just a little subconscious sub- what's the word, a subconscious and an involuntary little, you know, tension

release or that happens in my shortpots. And it almost never happens outside about four feet, just always a little shortpots. A quick break here to check in with our friends at Pinehurst. There's a lot of talk around the US Open, you know, out Tory Pines about a golf course that was accessible to a lot of people. Pinehurst, an anchor site of the US Open. It's one of the few golf courses on the US Open Rota that you can sign up and go play. Of course, Don Ross's fame number two. It's my favorite golf course in the United States. We will be heading there this fall. If you're looking to plan a golf trip, look no further than pinehurst.com.

On top of number two, they have so many things to offer you've heard about. Of course, the new number four course renovated by Gill Hance. It's like Pinehurst 2, but just a lot more friendly. It's not going to punch you nearly as hard in the face. It's the perfect complement. It's not a substitute that compliments it. It's got the same terrain. It's connected to it, and it's a great one-two punch. One a little easier.

One is, listen, number two is going to be chipped a little bit. Then, yeah, the nine hole, the cradle course, designed by Gill Hans and Jim Wagner. 789 yards, just a tiny little perfect playground of golf. It's like a skate park. This will do the giant putting green, the Piner's brewing company, the newly renovated manner in the Carolina hotel. Piner's offerings have never been bigger and better, and we highly recommend that you

check them out and play on your next golf trip there. Piner's.com, let's get back to Stuart's Inc. I find that, you know, some of the things you said after Heritage, and especially kind of in relation to what you're talking about there on the putting and whatnot, but about the mental side of golf. And I think a lot of people when they hear about the mental side of golf think it just means, you know, hey, be positive. Most important shots, the next one, blah, blah, blah, but especially your level, it can

be a lot more extensive than that. And you have a career that you've learned a lot of mental stuff. And it sounded like even at that point, you are not necessarily trying new things, but almost having kind of some enlightenment when it came to the mental side of golf. How would you describe your mental journey in the game of golf and how that has contributed to some late career success? I'd say it started when I found myself dreading going to the course when I was probably about two years into my career on the tour. And I won pretty early, I had a really good college career, I What I found was that I had just created

these expectations in my mind. And I had sort of imaged what a golfer is supposed to look like, say a golfer that's ranked in the top 40 in the world and playing it on the world's biggest stage and a PJ Tour winner for instance. I felt like I was assaulting myself when I would not live up to that frizzes. It's like a golf ball out of bounds, a three-pot,

a left to ball in the bunker, anything like that that just happens to everybody. The number one player in the world does this stuff, but I was not forgiving myself for it. And I found myself like dreading it, going to the golf course. And what am I gonna do if I missed the first, you know, five-footer or or if I hit it OB on number two, I was just not looking forward to playing golf and I didn't know why.

And so I kind of like a reverse engineered the process with help, with help. I saw it out a couple of sports psychologists and that didn't really go very far for me. I went outside of the realm of the sports psychology world and went into more of like trying to dig a little deeper and find out who I was as a person and what was going on. That's what led me to understand what these expectations were doing. When I first heard about this from a guy I used to talk to a long time ago, named Preston Waddington down in Florida, I felt like it was just a huge burden lifted off my shoulders.

Like, oh my gosh, it's exactly what I've been feeling like, and that explains it. And I felt like it was okay when I wasn't given myself the okay before. And so that was how I kind of started the journey. And to me, it was two things. It was number one, very effective as far as like an approach

to the game and recognizing these feelings and these thoughts that came. And so I could deal with them a lot better and more effectively and I played better. Number two, it opened up this real interesting world to me. Like, wow, this, you know, how you were raised and the things you experienced as a kid and when your mind was impressionable,

your self-esteem, how you feel about yourself in certain situations, all that stuff was really interesting to me and started kind of digging more into it. And so that kind of led me on that journey that, it was really still going on. I still find that interesting, and I'm always trying, I've always been a why person. I wanna know why.

You know, my coach tells me you need to take a club more outside, I wanna know why. I'm not just gonna do it until I'm invested. And that's been the way I've approached this too. When I feel a certain way over a putt or a shot, coming down the stretch and a tournament, why do I feel this way? I wanna investigate why and uncover the reason

so that I'm familiar with it next time it happens. I don't know how to ask this exactly in terms of, what do you understand about the power of visualization or how does visualization affect you. That's a mental thing that I think I feel like I'm starting to scratch the surface on learning and I'm curious as to if you have any insight on that. Well, only what I've learned from other people. I mean, none of this comes from storks think believe me.

I just read a little bit, I talk a little bit, I absorb, I listen to podcasts or whatever, and I just kind of put together these things in my mind. And so, first of all, I'm not really a big on visualization, that I don't necessarily do a lot of it. However, I do understand that the mind, when you, let's say you imagine something, let's say I imagine that

I run across the street and there's traffic and I feel the exhilaration of the cars whizzing by and I barely miss it and get to go side, right? If I imagine that, then when I stand there on the street corner and I'm about to run, my mind doesn't understand the difference between having really done it and imagined it. It creates like a template in your mind. That's what we call experience. And so you can gain experience through visualization because you can kind of fool your mind into thinking you've been there before. There was an instance where I can't remember what school. I think it was the softball world series, college world series, and a girl, one of the girls on the team

had not a standout record or batting average or anything, but she pledged every day to imagine herself doing interviews as if she had driven in the world series winning run. Every day of the year of the season, I guess. And she did these interviews in her mind, and she played it like, she had a reporter, she had her question, she talked about what it felt like, she said how it prepared, and lo and behold,

she drives in the winning run in the world series. And this is recent. And so the power visualization, that's it in an encapsulated picture right there. It's real, but, and you know what, you actually got me thinking, I think I need to do more visualization. encapsulated picture right there. It's real, but you know what, you actually got me thinking, I think I need to do more visualization. You can add me to the list of mental coaches you've

seen. But yeah, there you go. But it's, I think at every level, a golfer can say, when I've got it going good, I can visualize. You know, you don't even think it's more instinct. It's right side of your brain. It's, I see the target. I hit the ball there, I know it's going there. What I find that part of the game easy, right, when you're in the flow, what I find difficult is channeling mental lessons I've learned when something is off, whatever it could be. My focus is off one day, my swing is off one day, and like trying to, you know, while usually your left side

takes over at a certain point and you're trying to tell your body what to do, yet you need to be trusting your right side, et cetera. Have you learned anything about channeling, visualization and mental, letting your mind take over when things aren't going great? Yeah, like what we were talking about a second ago is more like mental imagery or visualization as far as way to prepare. And what you're talking about is like more in a way to operate. And so, um, definitely like, let's say you have, um, a ball that's on tight grass,

and you got a chip about 25 yards, and you need to carry it over the edge of a bunker. And it's just a pretty narrow landing area like to hit it perfect. You know, you got to land it sort of on this little spot. It's about three foot circle, right? Otherwise you're either going to be short or you're just going to roll over the back and down a hill. You can probably imagine the shot. little spot that's about three foot circle, right? Otherwise, you're either going to be short or you're just going to roll over the back and downhill. You can probably imagine the shot. Do you focus on the speed in your arms and the club

and how fast you want the club head to be when it clutches the ball? Or do you want to focus on where the ball is going to stop rolling? And so the end point of the shot is going to sort of like a free throw shooter. I don't think they're thinking about the arm motion. I think they're just locked in on the basket and the target and their rhythm. But do you want to focus on the end point or where the ball lands or how the swing feels?

There's just a lot of different mechanical things in golf that are going to, that you can choose to focus on. And I'm sure there's golfers that do this very successfully that focus on all these different possibilities. But that's kind of what you're talking about. It's like, what part do you want to focus on all these different possibilities. But that's kind of what you're talking about. It's like, what part do you want to focus on? And if one doesn't work very well, like let's say you lay the sawdust over one, what are you focus on next?

And that part of golf I find really fascinating too is where are your focus? Where are you going to put your energy? If you got 10 units of energy, how are you going to spend those units on this on every shot? You know, and that to me is crucial. It's crucial and if it's not going well, if it's if you're hitting your drives to the right or if you're You know catching your irons thin or I mean this this happens to all of us every single one of us that happens We don't come out there and hit the ball the same way every day Then that needs to be part of your planning before the round, before your tournament, before your year, whatever. How are you going to handle those moments?

And what are you going to do? What's going to be your check down? What's going to be the next check down? The next target, if the first one's not working. And that's just part of being ready to play and ready to compete because we're just not the same every day. Yeah, I think I'm both enlightened and more confused

as from when we started the conversation, right? Yeah, I've got to be a lot to think about there, but what are these phrases mean to you? These are phrases you've used, mountain top of trust or mountain top of peace. You know, so you said I've spent a lot of time and money on trying to be solid to my beliefs about what is really happening on the course and where my trust is, where my peace and joy come from. I'm wondering if you could share that with listeners. Sure. Well, the first part, mountain top, that's something that comes directly from my coach

that I work with on my short game in fighting James Seagman. We work very hard on making the process the goal and controlling what we can control and letting everything else just go. You know, once you make impact with the ball and it rolls across the green, or it flies across the edge of the green on the chip or whatever

It's gone and you can't do anything else about it. So I try to define what I control what I can't control very clearly When once that part's all been done. That's when James likes to say I want you to show me what the mountain top of trust would look like right here I'm like if I'm practicing show me the mountain top of peace. What does that look like? And they're interchangeable. They're the same thing. But the mountaintop just means like the absolute pinnacle of as much trust as the maximum amount of trust you want to put on only the things you can control. And to us, that means I want to hit my checkpoints and my routine perfectly so that at the end of my put, I can be satisfied and peaceful with that was a great routine. And then the results, it's not that the results don't matter, they do matter, but they don't even

exist. If you're really after that process and you're really trying to create the best process, then the results don't exist. They will be what they are and you're probably going to make 50% of your A-footers. The goal and professional golf, because it's a long, long, long journey, is to make 51% of your A-footers. Not 100%. You're not going to ever make 100. You want to make a little bit better than you did yesterday, and you want to just increase those percentages just by a tiny little bit.

Because if you try to do too much, you're going to fail. And so that's pretty, that's just a simple explanation to mountaintop. That's just the phrase that James Seeklin likes to use when he wants to see what it looks like to do the absolute best process with the least focused, the least units of energy focused on results. The second part of your question was about where I get peace and joy in my life. And that's an entirely different thing because faith is just such an incredible, huge part of my whole existence. I am a follower of Christ. And my relationship with Christ provides me

every bit of the peace and joy I need so that it just makes golf matter a little bit less. And it makes it a little bit more fun. And it takes the mountain tops of success down a little bit because I don't believe that I'm entirely in charge and it takes the failure, the depths of failure a little bit off too because I feel like I've already got something that's a complete assurance and I get that through faith. So that's, I want to focus on that all the time.

It's tantalizing to want to play great and shoot 64 every day and make all those 10 footers and hit every fairway. But it's not the answer when you're trying to play good golf, not for me anyway. Well, taking all these all this mental stuff we've talked about and it contributes greatly I would imagine to success to the point where you are have a five shot lead going into the final round of a tour event. That seems like the worst kind of lead to try to go into a final round of, especially the tight little golf course like Hilton Head. How nerve-wracking is it? How do you approach a round of golf knowing 18 parses probably

going to win this thing yet you know there's probably going to be smuppin' downs in it? What was the final round of the heritage like? Well, really Friday night and Saturday night kind of felt the same because I had a big I think it was a five or four shot lead after Friday too. So going into the weekend I knew obviously where I stood and there was a lot on the line a long way to go and almost anything can happen. And so you know it doesn't feel good. I've I believe in my career I've had a five shot lead and not one. And I did not feel good after that. And so I remember, you know, that's another thing about the way the brain works. It builds these little shrines to failure because the subconscious's main job in your life

is to walk you around and keep you safe. And it puts these little red flags every time you have a little knick to your safety. And if you feel a threat, your body doesn't know the difference. Your mind doesn't know the difference between like being a gun aimed at you and a three putt on the last hole when it costs you a tournament. It's an assault on the way you feel. And that is something that you have to constantly be aware of. And so those little experiences, those red flags, those shrines to fail your exist,

and it's hard to ignore those. And so one of those would certainly be, you know, always leaned by five shots and you shot 79 and lost the tournament. And you know, that doesn't feel good at all. So I knew that was out there. And I tried to be vocal to Lisa and to my son who's also now my caddy, Reagan, and let them know when I feel a certain way, like if I feel

a little bit of fear on the golf course, I'll try to voice that because it just gets it out, just helps and makes it feel a little bit less, less big. And so I was talking openly to Lisa about like, wow, I'm really nervous, you know, really nervous. And I know I'm playing great, but man, anything can happen. And I'm, you know, I need to discuss what I'm going to do if I'm out there. If I'm three over through two holes, or if I hit my first T-shirt at a bounds, how am I going to handle those things and try to be ready? And what if I get, what if I increase the lead to eight, then how am I going to do things? And I don't mean like, am I going to start playing with irons off the tee or start being more conservative.

The game plans, the game plan and you're trying to make the best score on the whole no matter what. I mean how am I going to handle myself and it's the between the ears part that really is that's that's the part that is the hardest to master and no one will ever really master it but you is close as you can come, you can be very, very successful in golf. Well, in the underrated part, I guess, of pro golf or golf at all levels or tournament golf in general, is how much time you have to spend just thinking, right? I mean, so little of your time is actually spent in the process of a shot.

And you know, especially you coming in, you're sleeping on the lead, come in the next day, I don't know how you go out and play golf the same free way you have in the previous three days. I feel like that's something that only can really, truly come from experience. Is that fair? It is. You're right. But it's also where the mountain top of trust comes in. You know, that you've prepared where are you going to go to get your grip that day? Is it going to be that you hope you get some good bounces? Or is it going to be that like, remember all those track man combines I did and all those times in the gym and how much better shape I'm in now that I was in 19? And there's so many reservoirs you can go to if you choose to, but you have to keep

those reservoirs full. And if you don't, you know, and empty gas things, I'm going to get you very far. So the mountaintop of trust comes into play at that moment and you have to go and find. And but again, all this stuff is decided ahead of time. Well, I don't know how well he actually channels this, but Patrick Cantley talked about, you know, when he shows up on Thursday of a tournament, he almost feels freed because he believes that his fate is almost decided based on how much work he's put into that point.

And I'm sure under the gun, he doesn't necessarily feel as freed up as he does hit in that first shot or whatever the week, but that kind of approach is that, is that sound similar to you? Does that sound like a crazy approach? What does that sound similar to you? Does that sound like a crazy approach? What does that sound like to you? Part of it sounds similar.

None of it sounds crazy, but part of it sounds maybe, it's just not the way that I think or approach the golf. I think golf is a percentage game in the macro. And that's what we're doing. We're, every time I'm on a tournament round and I have a 10 foot putt, I'm trying to make, I'm not just trying to make that putt, I'm trying to do the best process I can do

so that that one in the next 10,000, I'm gonna make about three or four more than the next guy. That's what I'm trying to do. It's about the macro to me. And if you try to make those, if you try to force those balls into the fairway from the tee, you just are going to end up frustrated because you can't control those results. That's just, I firmly believe that that falls into the basket of things

you cannot control. Patrick, I know him, he's a very hard worker in his exceptional player. He's so good. He's mentally strong, and I know how hard he works. And that may be his main reservoir. And if it is, then good for him because he's doing a great job with it. For me, how hard I work is not my main reservoir. But faith and knowing that this shot is one of the 10,000 in the macro world of the game I'm playing, that's the reservoir. I go to You're speaking to my soul there because I'm a big I'm a big stats guy

So that that that actually really does make it sound a sense But does it have any effect on you when you get to the golf course that day and you can tell us what a Fan yells at you as you go in I think you when you're walking into the locker room a taunt you receive nursing that five shot Lead does that have any effect on you in any way So I think when you're walking into the locker room, a taunt you receive nursing that five shot lead. Does that have any effect on you in any way? I forgot about that, but there was one guy you're probably referring to that it was when I was walking in on Sunday, you know, an hour and a half, two hours before my tea time walking in the locker room.

And there's a handful of fans. This was still back when there weren't that many fans at the course. And a guy just sealed, don't choke. And I'm like, thanks a lot, you know, for telling me that, you know, I, it's not like I haven't thought about that for the last 12 straight hours, but thanks for the reminder. I almost think that could almost help, though, you know, I'm like, ah, all right. Well, now let's not try to steer away or avoid this topic at all. Yeah. I mean, it was actually kind of funny. I didn't stop and reply to that guy and And we didn't have lunch the next day either. But it gave me a little chuckle and I was able to

walk onto the putting green and walk straight to Reagan. And he was setting up my little putting apparatus that I always do before I'm around it. I said, you're not going to believe in one guy. I just said, you just yelled, don't chuck. And we got to have a good laugh, which turned out to be, you know, the start of start of blowing off some steam. It was just a funny moment. Yeah. Well, I couldn't help it kind of be amazed at someone that's made 600 plus career starts, just how much in those coming under the gun there on the final nine and that whole week,

really, how much you rely on your son, Reagan, your caddy at key moments in that golf tournament. Checking win, clubbing decisions, et cetera, is that, I mean, I guess kind of explain that to me, you know, I know your son is an accomplished golf for himself, but it just was so much experience that you had. I just found that kind of relationship and back and forth to be at least that part of it to be very interesting. It was, it was so much fun and it's fun when we're winning. It's also fun because we do the same thing as when we're not winning and when I'm missing the cut.

It's just that's our process and Reagan has grown up around golf and playing golf, although he played other sports along with Connor and my other son, my older son. They both played ice hockey and Reagan played a lot more golf than Connor did, but they both played high school golf and a few golf tournaments here and there.

Reagan though just picked up the real passion for golf. He loves golf courses, he loves the golf decision-making, the nuances of how a boss sitting in the first cut of rough versus a fairway, you know, different. The nuances of golf IQ. Reagan is just excellent at that. And it's because he cares about that stuff. Connor is more of a six pack and play the music real loud and you know take five foot gimmies.

And he loves golf too, but he loves it in a different way than we do. So it's fun to go play with both of them because you see a great contrasting style of golfers. Reagan's a he's a good golfer, but his golf IQ is tour player. And so I trust him just to the end of the earth with decision making and input. I mean, I'm still the main decision maker, but I trust when Reagan walks yardages often when he gets a number to a certain part of the green that's not necessarily the front or the back or the hole

or the wind or the whole or the wind direction he's just got it he's like one of us out there cady he could cady for anybody in the world today he's just doing a fabulous job well i'm sure you get this question a lot to but how does how does the pay arrangement work it are there any any any family like tax breaks you could take advantage of does it all go to his inheritance to you know how does that relationship work?

That part works like he's a catty. He's a professional catty. Yeah, he's the only thing that, I mean, this is, I probably would not mind me talking about this, but that he's, uh, is basically traveling with us all the time. So we handle all the travel, all the hotels. We stay in, you know, Airbnb and stuff because Lisa, my wife travels in Reagan.

So we have three of us out there most of the time. So we don't stay in hotels as often. So we're covering all the traveling expenses and all the food, everything. Reagan's, he's on our ticket. He doesn't get the full weekly pay that a caddy would get because of that. We adjust down for that, but he does get the full percentage.

But I feel like he totally earns it. We've had two wins this year. He's gotten the full percentage for both of those. I didn't hesitate one bit to pay him the full bit. He's contributing to me playing well because there's a zero conflict out there. We both believe 100% in the way we're approaching the shots and what we're doing. He's making me a better player. I'm enjoying myself more. It's my favorite year I've had on the tour. And a lot of that student. That's awesome.

That's truly a unique situation. I'm not familiar with any situations that have looked quite like that in golf, but on a very different note, I'd say your closest call in a major prior to 2009 was in 2001 at Southern Hills. And for our audience, it might be a bit younger that maybe doesn't remember that situation in scenario. I'm wondering if you could take us there and talk a bit about what it was like reacting to that close

call. Yeah, at the end of this, I'll tell you the other most memorable fan call out that I got until the don't choke. So if I don't get to it remind me at the end. So 2001, we're in the US open in Southern Hills, Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I had been on tour now for 97 and 8.90. The four years I had two wins and, you know, I was kind of up in cummer still,

I was probably ranked in the top 30 in the world. And so played real well and coming down the stretch, it was basically me and Ritey for in the last group, Ritey Fguson, and it was gonna be one of us to win. And we both hit the fairway in 18. I missed the green into the left rough. Ritey hit it all over the flag, kind of a blind shot. You can't really see

where the ball ends up. He had a great shot and we get up there and I'm in the rough, got about 25 yard chip and he's about 11 feet straight behind the hole and on that course, on that pinball location, straight behind the hole is a straight uphill putt. I mean, it was a no-brainer, straight uphill, 11 footer. So I chipped on the green, left

a little short, kind of mucked it out of the rough, left it about just outside of his ball. You know, I put it first and I needed to make the par to at least make him make his birdie and I missed the putt. And so the tournament was over and I wanted to go ahead and finish and I had about two feet maybe last. I mean, it was short and I was a wreck. I mean, once that putt didn't go in, I was just I couldn't focus on anything other than just like get out of here without embarrassing yourself. And the one thing I did was I embarrassed myself. I missed it.

I missed the tap in. It was ugly and I made double and cleared the stage for Reteaf to go ahead and win the tournament. And then Reteaf goes and blows his 11 footer about two and a half feet past and miss that one and maybe Ogi. And so I'm standing there now going like, wait a minute, I just lost my one because I miss that little putt. And now I mean, I I maintain to this day if you don't miss your putt received as not three putt. I feel the same way.

I feel the same way. I mean, it'd be different if I marked and received three putt and then I missed mine. Yes. But, you know, the way it worked out is I lost by one and that putt suddenly meant a whole lot. That putt that I wasn't very focused on. And it's not like I rushed it or anything, putt on one foot. I was trying to gather myself and I just couldn't do it.

So I missed a little putt, re-t3 putts. It goes into a playoff the next day. I miss the playoff by a shot. And at that point, that's pretty gut-wrenching. The next year was a roughest year for me, probably golf lies, where at the time I felt a lot of confidence from the way I played, and I almost won the US Open, and I had a real half-interested next week at Westchester, like fifth place, I think. But over time, that misput and that tension that was on on it and it did take a toll on me and it did you know we had that was in 2001 we had 9-11 just a few months after that I had made the rider cup team kind of limp did didn't play great in the summer and made the rider cup team then we got the delay and I was in this bunk of you know not really enjoying playing and had the putting felt like kind of yips.

And then, so the comment, go back to the comment. So the very next week, Westchester, Par 5 finishing hole, and I think I hit up there to the green and two, and I had a pretty long putt. I was maybe like two groups from the finishing group, and I was was in contingent but I wasn't going to win. I was probably in fifth and I putted my first putt down the hill and it rolled about two feet past the hole and it was pretty much a no-brainer tap in and while I was walking down there and I was going to finish up a guy into crowd, you know, got to love the New York crowd. One guy just yelled out really loud, really

loud. See, don't put out. And I'm like, okay, I'll mark. Because I just couldn't, I mean, it was seven days after that US Open Sunday, and I just missed a short putt, and I was like, that guy just made it impossible for me to finish this whole. I cannot finish. I am going to mark and wait for you to putt.

And you just may have to wait for me a little while until I get myself together. But from that point on, I recognize like, you know what? This is a public deal. And I've got some work to do. And then a writer, I can't remember who it was, but a writer, they were doing the writer cup preview for my first writer cup.

You know, I'm going into, you know, I'm feeling like I'm in this sort of the, the, the fishbowl of golf, not playing great. And I'm on the writer cup team for the first time. And this writer was kind of given a little synopsis of every player under, let's say, Paul Aisinger, tons of grit, hits a lot of fairways. Don't want to play him in singles, you know, guys like that. That's the kind of description he put. Under mine, he put two words he won't hear, that's good.

That was pretty brutal and I'm like, oh my gosh, really? Is that really good? What's gonna be like in the right or cup? They're gonna be like all over me. They're gonna be, it's kinda like the Hawks fans, Counting, one to 10 for Yannis on the free throw. Is that what it's going to be like for me? And so, um, but of course, you know, you make these huge things up in your mind and you get there and nobody even remembers and I played pretty decent

in the Ryder Cup that year. And but we still lost. Well, one of the things I, uh, I guess I maybe unfairly love to, I look back at the picture. We have a picture of it in our office of the 2006 Ryder Cup team and how random that team is. It's names that you would just have not,

you didn't hear a lot from a lot of, you know, in the coming years on that team, like the Brett Wetterix and what do you remember about that event? What did you guys know when you were going over there that you're like, yeah, we might be kind of up against it a little bit this way? I don't think we did.

I mean, you got to remember that when you're out there playing, like, I'm out there playing Brett Wedrick's like, I got to see all the time. And I'm like, wow, Brett Wedrick's playing awesome. That guy can move it. What, you know, he's just having a great year. Volunteer, JJ Henry, those guys, they were kind of similar in that team.

And I'm friends with those guys. And I'm like, constantly amazed at how good they play. But there's only room for a few at the very top, and it's just so competitive. So with that being said, you have to remember that we had lost a couple of rider cups in a row, and it was kind of starting to become like, all right, what are we going to do about the rider? And the answer that year was, we're changing the whole qualifying system. And that was the year that they added just this like enormous amount of points for winning tournaments.

And they also included the opposite events. So if you won one of the opposite events during the year of the Red Cup, you were pretty much guaranteed to make the team. And, you know, call it what you will. Hey, not every system's got a perfect, you know, build up of its components or whatever, but. So yeah, we ended up with some random,

a little bit more random team members that year. And we didn't win. We got smoked pretty bad, but we had a great time doing it. And by the way, Sunday after we lost, best team party of my entire Ryder Cup career. Just unbelievable. How much fun. It was both team. Oh, the European team abandoned their team room like in half an hour after it was over and came to ours. It was just a full on just such a fun party. People up on the pool table standing up, karaoke, it was awesome. I can't wait.

I'm excited for another Ryder Cup in Ireland. That seems like a great place for international competition with awesome fans. Yeah, I mean, things would change the next year. I mean, I guess that probably contributes to things changing the next year for the Ryder Cup with a very different qualifying system and make up of that team. And you've had a lot of, you've played in five Ryder cups. I'm sure you've kind of been through the spectrum and seeing how these teams have come together and what constitutes a great winning team and what maybe is the less successful team. Was it a really big difference vibe wise going to 2008?

Well, yeah, I mean, it really was. And I'm not an expert on what it's the energy of a winning team versus a losing team, because only one won out of five. So I've experienced four losses and one win. And the one win was by far the outlier with the pod system that Zinger put in. And the biggest thing was not just the pod system itself, but it was just having a system. And he gave it to us well in advance.

So we all got a chance to sink our teeth into it and really learn to buy in. Everybody on the team was a part of it and was like fully invested in it. And I think sometimes like having a system is important as the system itself. And so you got captains at range anywhere from how Sutton and Curtis Strangel were both more

like the Yago kick their ass kind of mentality. And then you've got Lehman and Corey Pavan who were more of like the, hey, you know, it's gonna be an awesome experience guys, no matter what. And then you've got Zinger who's like the, hey, you know, it's gonna be an awesome experience, guys. No matter what. And then you got Zinger, who's like the mad scientist, kind of like cooking up this pod being, and here's what we're gonna do, and I'll tell you what,

you know, you can kind of hear it in his voice when he's doing television now. I love Zinger. Here's my big brother on the PJ tour my first year. My big brother, they had a big brother program, and Zinger was my big brother. I don't think he spoke to me until August 1st, and I just won the previous week. I don't think I know about the big brother, they had a big brother program and Zinger was my big brother. I don't think he spoke to me until August 1st and I just won the previous week.

I don't think I know about the big brother. What's the big brother? Oh man. Is that new? I don't know. It's so long gone. I don't think it lasted. I think probably because of people like Zinger who didn't speak to their young little brother

for eight months. I don't think I've ever heard of that. Yeah. And the only thing I had, this is, I don't know if this is the go-to when people ask about 2010 Ryder Cup, but the rain suits. That's the thing I remember the 2010 Ryder Cup the most for.

What do you remember about the rain suits? Well, I can tell you this, the tensions were growing between the players and the PJ of America. It had just come to a head where there was a lot of things that we thought were being done incorrectly and that priorities were being placed on things that didn't really matter to the competition as much. And it seemed just like things weren't really healthy in the relationship between the two groups. And it was going to either be rain suits or gloves or shoes or food or caddies or something, it was going to blow up and it happened to be rain suits. I'm telling you, it was going to blow

up no matter what, and it was just happened to be rain suits because we put on our rain suits and went out there in the practice day that it rained and we all got soaked through. So some of the players and caddies decided they would go and buy rain suits from the merchandise tent and that was really more of a show of sort of like a stick it right up here. You know what? Was it the stitching? Was it the stitching on them that made them not waterproof or were they just not waterproof to begin with? I have no idea. I think it was probably the stitching.

I'm sure I mean, I don't I don't even remember the brand, but it was a Totally a reputable brand that makes excellent quality rainwear. I don't I hesitate to even say the name because I don't want to be wrong But I'm sure that when you put a bunch of USA and your last name and Who knows other things that are stitched onto that thing every time you stitch you're going right through that water resistant water repellent coating and Water knows, you know, I mean, he hasn't had a leak in their ceiling. Water nose, how to get in, it's going to get in there. Gosh, it's so, I'm sure it wasn't funny at the time, but it sure is funny to look back on that a decade later. But all right, so I got some random stuff that I haven't gotten to in some fashion

and then we'll let you get out of here. But after 2009 open-chamber chip,are at Jug, spend a year with it. Tell us about the way you almost returned to the Clare at Jug when you brought it back over. Oh, yeah. Great night. We had a late Kyle Sutton South Carolina for a long time, which we just sold. And so my buddy Chad Parker, who runs East Lake,

he's my best friend in town here in Atlanta. And he and I grew up in the same town in Alabama. So I've known him since I was literally like six years old. So we were celebrating the last night of all of our togetherness before I left to go back to the British that year and return the jug and Chad and I both were in the barbecue a lot. And we have a professional cooking team where we compete in barbecue occasionally and Chad is one of my cookmates.

We got my coach Mike Lipnik is the other member of our team. And so we're seriously in the barbecue. And that night, we had kind of done a little barbecue feast for the gathering up there. We had probably about 20 people. We had some like a drizzle that you would put over pork, and we affectionately called it Sopmop. It was like a barbecue sauce,

but also kind of a marinade kind of a combination, but very tasty. And we put it in the clear at jug, and we drizzled it over the pork at the table, kind of like a showpiece, right, with the clear at jug, and that was kind of the photo moment. And then there was some, you know, Guinness and some other adult beverages

that were present. And so at the end of the night, during the cleanup, I thought Chad had cleaned it out, and he thought I had cleaned it out. The Claire Jugg. And so Claire Jugg goes back in his case. And when I had the jug in my possession, it's not like I got it out all the time. It stayed in its case for a week or two at a time without being touched. So it went back in its case. And we had about, well, that was the end of the fourth

of July weekend. And we were leaving for the British probably unlike July that, eight. So we had three or four days. So I show up at the airport here in Atlanta and we're going through security and I know a lot of security people in there. And so when they see me come and they're like,

uh-huh, you know we're gonna have to check that. We know, because they knew it was a clear jug and they're like, uh-huh, we gotta check it. So I was laughing with them and they pulled it out and started looking at it and other officers came over and everybody was kind of crowded around. Yeah, look at the jug. And then meantime, I see the sop mop start to drip out.

The sop mop is dripping out of the clear at jug right there in the airport, right there in security line. And the line is kind of backed up and I'm like, guys, I think they've got people waiting and it's dripping right on the little felt in the case and I'm seeing a disaster starting. So they put it back and they close it up and I'll went straight into the bathroom. And so I'm in like the the tea gates in Atlanta right there at the bathroom at the end of security and I'm washing out the clear at jug in the bathroom in the sink and pouring out the salt mop. I'm the way back.

On the way back. People in the bathroom are like, ah Stuart, we get it, you won the British Open, man. Like, we get, you don't need to clean it in the airport. But. So, yeah, cleaning out one last time, guys. So, I didn't have anything really to dry it with. So, I kind of put it back in the case wet and I was worried when I got there, overnight flight and all that.

It was gonna be like really gross, really moldy and everything. But when I got there overnight flight and all that, that it was going to be like really gross, really moldy and everything. But when I got there, we went over a little bit early to go to Dublin and play golf around Ireland for just a couple of days before we went over to the open. It was at St Andrews that year. And so when I got to Ireland to the hotel, I got out of the case and it was wet and gross, but it wasn't moldy or anything. So I stood it up in the corner and let it air dry for the rest of the day while we were out playing golf. But yeah, that was that was kind of the last little fling I had with it, the sot mop. Where'd you play in Ireland on that trip? On that trip, we played Port Marnock, we played

Baltre, we played European club. not have played Port-Montag twice. I can't remember now, but I love playing Ireland. I love all the links courses, but Ireland, it just seems like they really like Americans, and they welcome us so friendly and so welcoming. And so I just thoroughly enjoy being in Ireland. Yeah, I mean, just a couple or a couple years have not been able to go there really. It's like I'm ready to scratch that edge going over and play in some more

links golf. What what what what was the first time like playing with with Tiger Woods and on the back half that what's it like going up against him in match play? Well, the first time I played golf with Tiger Woods, it was a junior golf tournament. I was 17 and after the first round, my mom had taken me to this tournament in Dallas, Texas. My mom says to me, go practice or go to the pool or go do something, I'm going to go watch Tiger Woods. And I'm like, what? I've never heard of Tiger Woods. What are you talking about?

It's a golfer. He's from California. He's pretty good. I'm going to go watch it. So my mom went and watched Tiger Woods play golf. And that was the first round of the tournament. And on the final round of the tournament, I was in the last group with Tiger Woods. And also, Nota Begey, the three of us were the final pairing

and Tiger Woods won the tournament by one very close. He won. He was the, me and Dona were like the oldest kids and we were the favorites and Tiger was the young upstart and he beat us and I played with him then and then because of my age I went to college and I didn't play with him until I was a senior in college and the next time I played with him he was a freshman

and I played with him in South Carolina and the shot that he hit off the first tee, he had gone from boy to man. And the shot he hit off the first tee, I'll never forget the sound of it, how loud it was and how far it went. I was just astonished that somebody could hit a golf ball that far. It was just unbelievable. And that's what I watched for, you know, 20, something, 25 years. Well, and then 2008, you make it all the way to the finals of the match play,

only to see that guy across the, across the tee box at you. How did that go? Well, I think if you go back and Google that, the answer will be there. I think it was like a 10 and 8 loss for me. Something like that. It's 8 and 7. Don't don't. Don't get it.

Quite get tamed. But I mean, I was actually rain only just looking at that stretch of golf that he played from 2006 to 2009 today and it's Do not do not feel bad about losing that match that badly because there's almost nothing nothing like that But now it was that that was I mean I I think we played well you just said eight and seven so we played about What's that 11 holes 11 holes? 29 holes yeah 18 and then 29 holes. Yeah. 18. And then oh, it's 36 hole final. That's right.

36 hole final. Yeah. And so that makes it better. And so I played, you know, three or four under golf. For that. And I got to be 87. Oh my god. And I didn't play. I threw away a couple of shots, but I played some good golf too. And I there was a funny story from that. I had an eagle putt when Tiger was dormi. And I had about a 35 footer and Tiger had chipped up to give me a made a birdie. And if I didn't make this eagle putt, the match was over. And I was putting,

the pin was on the left side of the green and all the spectators were to the left. And I was putting towards them. And in my through line, like as I looked past the hole and through the gallery, I saw the tour staff wheeling the trophy on a cart. And it was right behind the hole. And I was crouching down looking at the putt and I was kinda like, what are we still doing here? I mean, can we just get this over with? And I looked and I saw the cart and it renewed this focus

in me and I'm like, oh my gosh, I have something to fight for now. I wanna at least make a move the cart one more hole. And so I was kind of laughing and also kind of fired up and I made the putt and it was like one of the most exhilarating moments because I just wanted them to have to move that cart one more time. I just felt so disrespected by like

they're wheeling the cart out there and it's right in my through line. And so then on the next whole tiger me birdie and it's over. Put you out of your misery. Yeah. All right, well very last question. We ask this every time I remember to actually ask it,

but usually make people think a little bit. When was the last time you paid for golf? My own golf? Yes. Okay, that changes things. When was the last time you paid for golf? My own golf? Okay, that changes things. Because I did pay for my kids to go, we went to Pebble Beach last year and played at Pebble and Cypher and Spyglass.

And so I paid a lot for that. When did I pay for myself? I mean, I have joined a few clubs, but you don't, you you're not talking about that. That's that's that's why you're talking green fees. It might have been the old course. They may have been the old course. Yeah, when I first played there, I was just a nobody.

I mean, I just turned pro and I'd probably got on tour for a year, but I never played the old course. And we had the open at Karnusti and I missed the cut. And I wanted to have played the old course. It was 98. No, 99. The year of the, the year of the debacle it at Karnusti. And I wanted to play at the old course.

So I just joined on the ballot and waited around and got on. And I think I paid. But I don't think I've paid since then. That's pretty awesome. You did the, you did the ballot there on the first team. Yeah. I did the ballot and I got in right away. And you know what? I got paired with three American rules officials.

Hmm. I wonder how many open champions have done the ballot at the old court. That'd be, that'd be an interesting to see if there's, there's any more of those. So maybe so. All right. We'll let you out on that. Thanks so much for joining us. We really enjoyed the stories and the perspective in your career and especially the, uh,

the mental golf stuff that was really interesting stuff. So thanks so much for your time. Grailie the stories and the perspective in your career and especially the mental golf stuff that was really interesting stuff. So thanks so much for your time. Grailie Prishay will be rooting for you. Rest the way. All right, you got it. Give it a right club. Be the right club today.

Yes! Be the right club. That is better than most. How about it? That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most.