No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 452: Michael Keiser, Jr.

Episode Date: July 7, 2021

Michael Keiser, Jr., owner of the Sand Valley Golf Resort and son of Bandon Dunes Golf Resort owner Mike Keiser, joins the pod to catch up on the latest developments at Sand Valley, Bandon Dunes and the recreation of the Lido Golf Course.  Michael also details the family's philosophy around golf development and his upbringing in the golf business as a caddie and agronomy staff member at Bandon Dunes.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. I'm not in. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang Up Podcast. Sully here got a great episode for you today with Michael Kaiser owner of San Valley. He is the son of Mike Kaiser, who is well known in the Gulf Road. We've been a guest on this podcast before.

We had a chance to meet Mike Olor, Mike Jr. when we were up at San Valley last month, had an unbelievable conversation with him, his knowledge of golf course design and putting together a resort. Kind of blew us away a little bit immediately. We walked away and said he would be a great guest on the podcast. We were right. It tells amazing stories about the lead owe that's being built up there at San Valley and how San Valley came

to exist and the history of it. It's pretty amazing. It's a pretty special place in the World of Golf. We're thrilled to sit down and have a chat with him. No leg up is of course brought to you by Precision Pro Golf. You might have thought that our sponsor, Precision Pro, might not have been crazy about. We put out a video with DJ Pi where he went out and played with no flag sticks in, encouraging golfers to play to the center of the green.

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Let's get to Michael Kaiser. I want to start with this. I think it can dictate a lot of our conversation today. It may seem like a silly question, but what is golf to you? I'm going to guess that we're pretty closely aligned on this, but I guarantee our answers to this question would be a bit different. So what is golf to you? It's a teacher. Did not know. They don't think you're going to go there. Well, and that was, you know, it might be one of many responses, but that's what popped into my head. First, I think, you know, for me, Goph has taught me so much, and what I think of first is it's my teacher. What has it taught you? What are some examples? Well, it certainly taught me patience and humility It could be a cool game and I guess that's that's two things that it's taught me

But I think it's taught me about myself, right? If you have the privilege to play a great golf course It sort of demands, you know, your own creativity and and forces you to express your individuality and doing that I think you you learn about yourself. You certainly learn about other people when you walk with them for two to four hours. You learn about your big state of mind as well as how you are at the time. So I'm rallying a little bit, but golf to me is first and foremost a teacher. But certainly many other things as well. Well, because I think all of us, you know, in this game, we love the game, but also know that there's like a bit of, there's a bit of something, of something bigger to it, you know.

It's, it does teach you a lot in life. I feel like a lot of life lessons I learned from junior golf, dealing with adversity and, you know, how to treat people, how to talk to people and, and also just like experiencing nature. That's right. I got to thought you'd go somewhere more outdoorsy with that, because that's one of the aspects that I really love about it. But for the listeners that aren't familiar,

what is your golf background? I learned the game when I was a kid. I didn't play it a lot. It was quite frustrating to me, and I had yet learned humility. I knew the game, but I was more drawn toward other activities in nature. I was a big rock climber and mountain bike, a mountaineer and ice climber. That's where I spent most of my free time growing up at a trip to Northern Scotland.

When I was maybe 13, I really got the bug. And at a bit of what you might describe as a transcendental experience with a nine iron, I was out there by myself, it was probably 10, 30 at night, and had one of those moments in the flow or in the zone, however you'd like to call it,

were sort of the boundaries between myself and the ball and the club and the ground slowly disappeared for a fleeting moment, and I've been chasing that experience ever since. That's funny, I could picture there was a nine-hole that I had with my dad one night when I was like in middle school, where I still claim it's the best I've ever hit the ball,

and I've never flagged it as well as I did in those nine holes that I've been chasing chasing that ever since. But for for listeners that maybe aren't aren't as familiar with you know your your role in in the Kaiser Golf Empire if I may if I may call it. Can you give us a bit of a background on when you got involved in the business and what your what your responsibilities are now. Growing up I worked in the business starting with Dune's club when I was you know a kid cutting center lines with with my dad with with our axes I guess is where I began I worked at band and Dune's throughout throughout college I moved to Australia after college to work at Barn Bougal

Dune's in operations. That's when I realized I love development. And again, encouraged me to go out on my own away from golf and but just to learn the craft, which I did in Chicago for about a decade, and then got involved in San Valley golf resort, which my brother and I own, and we're now developing San Valley as well as a few new, exciting projects we have getting ready to start the next couple of years. So, you know, I describe us as sort of a collective, you know, of producers, and we could

think of, you know, a movie production where we work together and collaborate in different ways depending on the project and we're all at some involvement. But Sam Valley has been my baby for the last seven or eight years and where I've spent the vast majority of my time until the last year where I've been working on getting two new sites out of the graph. We're going to get to that. And that's something that was a huge, huge takeaway for me, spending a bit of time up there

and meeting you last earlier this month. I guess last month now that as we go to record this. But I want to hear about living in Tasmania and then working with the settlers down at Barnbougle. That's one of the more interesting places I think I've ever been and how far away from the world did you feel when you were living in Tasmania? Well, I was certainly out floating on an island in the middle of the nowhere, but I didn't have time to put that in perspective. They worked me pretty hard.

I think I got my first afternoon off after five or six months. So it was an upstart. It was super fun. We were just working around the clock to get the business off the ground and to try to make it successful. And I just try to keep my eyes and ears open to learn as much as I could from Richard and Sally

who are brilliant entrepreneurs. Their family became my surrogate family down under the two of them were great mentors and I just had an incredible year learning from them. And then what what what what did you do at Bannon? What was your involvement at Bannon? So Bannon was I think I said college it was probably more I know it would have been college. I started off in the chronomy. And my first summer, I did a split shift. So we started a chronomy about 4.30 AM, then had a split and came back in the afternoon.

So during the split, I worked outdoor services. I worked for Shoe, who you probably know, meeting and greeting our guests. And then after the second shift, I came back to close. Dr. Services, you know, wrap up. I think that was, let's see, 90. It was probably my freshman year of college or senior year of high school.

So worked from a few hours before sun up to sun down and then drank a lot of beer after that and slept for a few hours and did it all over again the next day. It was a great summer. One of the things that I learned was how much more the caddies made than me at the time. The resort has a wage that's higher than minimum wage, but my dad made it an exception for me. So, you know, making $4.73 was less appealing when I came back than caddies. So, in following

summers at Cadi, I'm teasing a little bit about money, but as a young man, it was nice. But what was wonderful about being with a Cadi was just listening to our guests and understanding what resonated with them. What were the moments in the round that were magical to them and what captiv you know,

captivated their imagination. And then from the hospitality, you know, perspective, what were we doing right, what were we doing wrong? You know, every day was an opportunity to ask, you know, as many questions to the guests as I could without irritating them and to learn as much as possible about our business through the eyes of our guests. So that big takeaway from band and was just that time I had with our customers, generally they didn't know that I was the son of the owner. And I got a pretty candid look at what we were doing

the right and what we could approve. So wait, your dad made an exception to pay you less than the wage that you were getting paid, but then the rest of the staff? Yes, we, so we're proud of having a resort and dream golf minimum wage that's significantly higher than minimum wage, but you made a special exception for me since I really had no idea what I was doing and didn't deserve more than 473. Which by the way, to Windows after pay taxes, I don't know, it 473, you know, ends up with, but even after 90 hours, it's not a whole lot. Just enough to buy, you know, some light beer.

Well, to that point, you touched on a lot of stuff I wanted to ask you about in terms of, you know, what the feeling that guests get when they go to your guys' properties and when did you guys know that this was gonna be, you know, the feeling that guests get when they go to your guys' properties. And when did you guys know that this was going to be, you know, not only something that, you know, your dad did, you know, the Doons Club and then Band-in. But when did you guys know this was some, this kind of destination, kind of remote location thing was something that you could replicate in a lot of other locations around the world? And was it, was it something in particular that you learned at Bannon that really kind of set that off?

You know, Bargogal probably confirmed that the model can be applied to a totally different market. That's probably when that was revealed for me, it was, it was San Valley. You know, the way we described the model up until San Valley was San site Genius architect ocean, you know those three ingredients are a great recipe that can be replicated and

Certainly, we didn't have an ocean at that at San Valley. So I Guess you know if we were to continue to distill that it would be a wonderful San site genius architect and And that you know, we find if you mix in with friendly hospitality and treat our guests the way we would want to be treated is, I don't want to say a formula, but a recipe that can be tweaked, maybe at any, you know, sand site, you know, in the country, if not, you know, many places in the world. Well, tell me about the site of sand valley. And I want to talk a lot about this location and what you guys have done so far and what the future plans are,

because that was what had me especially intrigued. The first visit I'd ever been there, obviously, I'd heard good things, but I was kind of amazed at how you described what made that land so special. It's some kind of connection back to ancient history made me appreciate the ground we were standing on that much more. So I wonder if you could tell us the story of how St. Valley became St. Valley. It's always fun to start the Genesis story

with how the heck did all this sand get here? It may be less remarkable when you're on an ocean because you expect sand, but when you're in the middle of central Wisconsin and there's nothing but sand hundreds of feet deep, it certainly begs the question, how did this get here? So the ours is tied to the glaciers and our glacial history in the Midwest. So as the glaciers retreated to the north and ground up, you know, these various, you know, rocks and granite, it left a sand deposit, which would have been flushed all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico if it weren't for a massive ice

dam and present day Wisconsin delts, Barababoo Wisconsin that held the water in place and therefore kept the sand in place. And over several thousand years as the glaciers retreated and melted, the size of that lake grew to approximately 2 million acres. Eventually the force of that 2 million acres of water was too much for the ice to bear, so about 12,000 years ago in a single catastrophic event, the dam burst and in a 24-hour period, the force of all that energy carved out this beautiful Wisconsin delts, these rock formations about 45 minutes south of us. The lake bed was all the sand which we now occupy a small part of. So that's how the sand got here. It blew around the last 12,000 years.

And most of it is flat. As you imagine a lake bed to be, but for whatever reason, these 60 to 90 foot dunes formed about five or 6,000 acres right where we are here in Central Wisconsin. On top of that sand, this sand bearing oak savanna prairie ecosystem emerged, which historically occupied probably 20% of Wisconsin, 20% of the US, 20% of the globe and these barons, Savannah's are now far more rare, less than 2% globally and a small fraction of a percent in Wisconsin and very rare in the US. Back in the 30s all these barons were seeded over in red pine plantations. And that is what it had been until we got

here and began our restoration efforts. So what you see in these sand dunes are these beautiful prairies and oak savanna's and exposed wild sand dunes. And that's what we imagine it would have looked like prior to creating this agricultural crop in the 1930s. That's it, huh? That's all you got on the history. That's amazing.

I can go, I can go. I can go. It's amazing. You want to go down that rabbit hole? No, I don't understand history, like how history is maintained, like how you could know that in 24 hours, you know, the breaking of the day I did all that. But that's like, that's so amazing. Like those kind of stories just kind of blow my mind for, like, it's kind of what connects you to golf in Scotland, I think when you walk around and like you walk around the old course and know that people walked around this same area and played golf in like the 1400s or whenever that was. It just like, it makes you feel like your time spent, you know, in this game is worthwhile, right?

That this, you know, ice carved out this sand, which made this turf, which made a destination golf resort in the middle of Wisconsin, which is, I think it is fair to say like a place that, a lot of the locals like that we talked to to them we're up there could never have pictured that people would come from all over the country and you know all over the world to come travel to to play to to visit you know Rome, Wisconsin. Do you hear that a lot? We heard all the time, you know, and they have been huge supporters of us since day one,

but they say it, you know, often. And I think they're as surprised as anyone. Well, give us an idea of what it's like to transition, you know, wild terrain into a golf resort. I'm talking from, you know, the legalese, the red tape, the bureaucratic headaches, if you will, of doing stuff like this. Can you give us at least a taste of what it's like to see something like this from beginning to end? Certainly. And it depends a lot on where you're building.

Here in Wisconsin, there was very little red tape or bureaucracy to navigate. The town supported us and the county tremendously from the start working with the state of Wisconsin and the DNR. There's certainly red tape to navigate, but they have been delightful to work with and it really helped us navigate through that. That's not always the case in every state or in every country, the flourishing for various political or bureaucratic or environmental reasons. So sometimes like in Wisconsin, that could take weeks or months to navigate.

My guess working on a project in California that's seven years into that process or everybody knows bandin took nine years to get approval. So that part could change quite a bit, depending on where you're building. But once you get going, you know, here in Wisconsin, we have this agricultural, you know, pine that we have to remove and we're not only remove that crop, but it's roots and all the debris that's left behind. So we have pre-construction here

that we might not have at Band-In or say of the next site that we're working on. After that, the buildup process is pretty straightforward. Most of it's in the architects were outing and then doing some minimal changes to the topography and installing the irrigation and putting the final change in the greens and then seeding it. I guess there's a lot more, you know, there's the financial considerations and the planning and but for us everything starts

with golf, we always ask the architect to find what they deemed to be the greatest 18 holes on piece of property. And once we've worked with them on that routing and it's approved, we put everything else into place around that. We don't do a master plan first. We adapt to the golf. I think a lot of developers will look

toward the second course and the third course and where is the lodging going and the restaurants and we always develop around the highest quality golf routing that we can. And then do the best to make everything else work as well as possible after the golf comes first, seven, and third. Well, how would you describe the two golf courses

that are there currently? There's two courses and then there's the sandbox, the part three courses, which will get to as well. But how would you describe San Valley and mammoth dunes individually? Well, I guess I'll start with mammoth dunes because it's easier to describe. It's certainly mammoth in in always. It's on a scale that is, I just can't, I mean, I think of maybe Yale or parts of rural county down, but it's big and it's bold.

I think David took a big swing and hit it out of the park. The fairways are massive, the dunes are massive, the greens are massive. It is certainly mammoth and always, and it's really resonating with our gas set. And I give David credit for doing something that is totally different and maybe never, never been done before. You know, sand valley is, you know, core and crunch are so great at sort of the seduction and

playing with your heartstrings throughout the round at creating new acts and subtlety that, you know, unconvinced I'll be studying sand valley my whole life and only begin to get to know it if I'm lucky enough to live a long life It certainly has big beautiful sand dunes and is stunning I think really where it shines is it's you know, it's it's green complexes and and the variety of ways that you know We're talking early on about how engulf it gives you a chance to express your individuality. And and and any one of those greens, there's almost an infinite number of ways to play the shots and to recover and they give you those choices and allow you to to do things your way, which I

think is really like me. So that's my best crack at what's different about them. No, that's great. It gave me a lot to react to there. And I kind of wanted to start with Mammoth as well, because I've been very fortunate to see a lot of golf courses, a lot of really special places. And I walked off Mammoth, and I don't mean to say that it's a perfect golf course. My favorite golf course I've ever played, but I walked off with just like kind of my mind blown as to why golf isn't a lot more like that than it is the rest of the world.

And I've said this to a lot of people that I've asked about it. I said golf should be like the scale of hard golf courses versus easy golf courses is totally flipped from how it should be. Like 80% of golf should look more like mammoth, balls should funnel onto greens, and the best players should have to travel far and wide to find golf courses that are supreme challenges for them.

And I feel like it's 80% difficult, 20% easy, and that should be totally flipped. And it doesn't mean to say that mammoth isn't challenging. Like it is, we were four, six handicaps are better. And we had one of the most fun matches I can ever remember playing. We made 13 birdies in an eagle in the back nine. And there's three par fives. There's two dribble par fours in the back nine. And it was just a total blast. And we all walked off with scores we were very proud of.

And I was just left to, you know, wonder like why isn't golf a lot more like that? And I'm just curious if that's a reaction you get from a lot of guests. Yeah, certainly is and we don't have a good answer to why why golf isn't, you know, more like that. One thing that holds all the, or binds all the dream golf courses is that they are playable and we designed them for, you know, the retail golfer, the scratch to 18 handicap or 22 handicap.

So I think compared to most of the courses that have been, you know, built since the second world war, our courses are playable for most golfers, but MAMA, I think stretched, push that boundary of what it is playable and and it's really resonating with people and I think it'll be interesting to see how golfers or other developers and architects respond to that but the but I guess I've certainly spoken and they like it. They enjoy it. A quick break to check in with our friends at Woop. This is not the first time I've made this confession, but I have to confess, I've let my Woop die

for probably longer than I'm comfortable, or I should have been comfortable letting it die, getting it back, getting back in the flow of things, keeping it charged, it's picking back up on my habits. I kind of had figured, I've kind of learned what I need to know about my body. I've probably, you know, I don't know if I need to, you know, keep it up to date every day. I was wrong.

It's giving me really red alert numbers in terms of my recovery, my sleep. I've been tossing and turning a lot, you know, I've been in bed for many hours, but it's showing me how much time I'm spending being awake. I probably need to change up some of my habits. I need to cut out some alcohol. I need to cut out some alcohol, I need to cut out sugar before bed. The whoop gives you personalized insights like all of this stuff.

And again, I've worn this thing for well over a year. I'm still learning how my body responds to things and learning that there are no shortcuts to getting a good night's sleep, getting rest. And a good night's sleep is not just mean getting spending nine hours in bed. Your heart needs to come to a rest. Your heart rate variability needs to go up and down.

Again, this is tip of the iceberg as far as personalized insights that Woop gives you into how your body is aging, how your body is reacting to the everyday stresses you're putting on it. And we haven't even gotten into the physical activity related stuff related to Woop. So Woop.com promo code no laying up for 15% off your subscription to whoop. I cannot recommend this product enough. I will be keeping it charged and will be changing some habits. I will check back in with you later this month with an update on that. Let's get back to the podcast. You know, just in talking with the caddies too, they seem to say, you know,

it's kind of like there's a little maybe some more intrigue on sand valley and that if you're going to play a lot of golf, you'd want to play San Valley just kind of try to solve the puzzle as you insinuated there. But guests come and shoot a great number. Shoot one of their better numbers on mammoth and fall in love with that. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. I think, like I said, for a lot of people that don't get to play a ton of golf, you know, there's a lot of reward that comes from watching your ball go closer to the hole than it does go further away. But what was it?

What was it? Like, I guess, you know, I attended a couple years ago at the PGA show, McClay Kid and Bill Kor were there talking about the opening of mammoth and whatnot. And McClay Kid loves to make the joke of how important it is to go second at one of these resorts. Can you speak to what kind of advantages someone has going second and him being the first one to design the first band in course, why he was maybe a little envious of some of the guys that got to go after him at bandin. Well, I always tease him.

I know, you know, when he says that, when he, I wasn't there, but I saw that at a panel, you know, he talks about having something to react to, right? Within this topography, what is he feel works on Bill's course and Ben's and what doesn't work? So you have something to respond to and follow, but I tease him because, you know, I think the ultimate reason he likes going second is we have this beautiful mammoth bar that he could come into for lunch, right? He could grab a steak sandwich and a beer and a cheesecake. He and his team certainly loved our cheesecake whereas when Bill Corris out here, if I remembered to drop an apple off,

by one of the greens that he was floating, it would be a good day. And he would have to remember to bring cranberry bread from the convention center hotel in Wisconsin Rapids half an hour away. So I think the reason to go second is once we've built out these restaurants and hotel rooms, shares a lot more comfortable for your David and his team than to be the first when there's a shipping container and not much else. Can you talk some about the process of deciding on a design team? And I think we can bridge this into a question I wanted to ask as well as why does it seem like Bill Kor, Tom Doak and Gil Hans Hans, and Ben Crenshaw, of course, with Kor?

Why does it seem like they tend to get a lot, a lot of the work, almost more work than they can handle. I know we talked about this when we were up there some, and your answer on that was pretty interesting. Well, just to use one of them as an example, Bill Kor and Ben Crenshaw, Bill Cor and Ben Crenshaw are at the top of their game. Like the other brilliant architects you mentioned, they're in doubt with some pretty incredible talents, but they've cultivated those over their careers and they're relentless in their pursuit to get better.

It's really hard not to look to them just because they're so done and talented and that's hard for young architects who are trying to break out. They also have, they're sort of all-star teams and again, this could be said about, you know, the other architects you mentioned, but I mean, if you look at core and crensha, their teams are so loyal and have been with them for decades, teams are so loyal and have been with them for decades. Dan Proctor, Dave Axel and Jimmy Craig, those three guys all worked at CNN Valley, Rod Whitman, right? I mean, each of those are architects who have designed

their own magnificent golf courses and they're out there designing and shaping for Bill and Ben. So their teams are just so deep. You know, in part that's because they get great sides, but I think it's first and foremost because they're incredible human beings and they treat their team extremely well and their team adores them and looks forward

to staying with them from project to project. But to back up to your original question, how is somebody selected? It is hard not to reach out to Bill and Ben first, but I think some of it has to do with the site and what their particular skill sets are and what the vision is for the property. David Kidd, if you're moving Sam,

you're either going to cut it or fill it, right? You're going to chop some sand down or fill some sand up. And I think David and his team are at their best when they're cutting a little bit. If they have to shave a little off, you know, amount. And that's a, that may be a gross generalization, but you know, Bill and Ben, if they have to just fill a little bit, it's pretty extraordinary what they could make. So maybe if you're looking at a site, you know, you might ask yourself, is this one that,

you know, needs a little more cutting or a little more, you know, a little more filling? I guess just an anecdotal story, Sedge Valley, when my brother and I hired Tom Doke, it's the idea there started with our questioning if we could grow or resort with non-traditional 18-hole championship roundings. We've seen just how popular the sandbox has become team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, team, We pushed the boundaries of what, you know, of fun and just put fun first. So when we reached out to Tom on Sege Valley, there was an incredible piece of ground that

just didn't feel quite big enough for traditional length golf course. And I called him and asked it. It wasn't offering the job, but I asked if his one shot at San Valley were to build a precision golf course, par three and short part fours, would he do that? And one of the reasons I asked him is that I think he's always looking for something that's totally different, you know, something he'd never done before. I think he gets a big kick out of, you know, he did the loop.

And I thought it would resonate with him. And he said he would. He'd absolutely, if that were his one job at St. Valley, he'd love to do it. I said, I'm the topo and his response was a different concept, but but the Sag Valley, which is a magnificent routing that covers you know, 6,000 yards and whose power happens to add up to 68. So I guess every piece of land and then the mission that we're trying to accomplish leads to perhaps a different architect

that fits the mission, the vision, and the ground. Well, because I think a lot of the, you know, talking about Sedge Valley and kind of transitions into what I wanted to ask you about next anyways, but a lot of the feeling I get when I'm at, you know, Dream Golf properties is it's more of a play box, you know, then it is, you know, traditional golf, you know, two par-fives, two par-three's on each side has to add up to par-72. Like I never, you know, I never walk around band and preserve, you know, with a with a with a scorecard and a pencil. Like it just doesn't seem to be, it's, it's just not designed for competitive golf, I don't think it. I mean, that's the best way. So why not push the boundaries a little bit and, you know, do something different. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from making a par 68 and,

and yeah, I guarantee I haven't said value is not built yet, but I guarantee you won't walk around it and be like, gosh, it just built you up and I guarantee you won't walk around it and be like, gosh, it just, which you probably, I've really needed it to add up to a par 72 to, to, to have been a full golf experience. But is that tough to break down though, like that, that perception? No. And, and, and here's what I would say. First off, if we weren't telling people, it was a par 68, 6,000 yards, nobody would know. They would, they would hopefully just say that was fabulous, right? If you play, uh or Swimley Forest or West Sussex or many other great golf courses, for the first time I walked off Swimley Forest and for years I didn't know it was a part of 68 or 6,000 yards. I just said I want to go right back to the first tee and do that

again. The other thing I would say is if you look at some of the courses my dad's developed, they confirm that people don't note what's peculiar about them. They just note how fun they are. The back, look at the scorecard of the back nine at Pacific Dunes, par three, par three, he par five, par four, par three, par five, par four, par three, par five. So is that two, two par fours on the back nine,

four par threes on the back nine. I mean, that, to me, that proves that the scorecard and length are almost irrelevant. You just walk up that 18th hole and you say that was fun. So take that back nine. And what if you had two 18s like that, would people complain that certainly not as long as the quality of the holes are excellent and every hole is different. Jumping to Cabot Cliffs, six par three, six par five,

six par fours. Again, the score card is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the quality of the hole's high or they all different from one another. They memorable, are they fun? And are they beautiful? And are they in both cases? The answer is yes, and when the answer is yes,

nothing else really matters. Well, I think the landscape also contributes greatly to that. If you're gonna play golf along the ground, like the parts, I don't know why, the parts of the holes just seem less important to me, you know? Yeah. I couldn't explain to you why that is,

but I think it's just kind of, yeah, I don't know, maybe you just care a little less about your score when you're trying to be creative with shots. But tell us about, so the plan for such Valley was in motion, and I know you guys have had a ton to deal with with a pandemic and construction of golf courses and why timelines change and what the current project is that you guys have going up at San Valley. Yeah, the time might change because not a rush new in March and April of last year that the pandemic would prove to be great for golf.

And we had to make a decision to accept a grant from the town of Rome to build a large part of Sedge Valley or not. And we were very nervous. We had no idea what our business would look like in 2020 or 2021. So we declined that grant, which put off its development for several years as we grow the business organically.

So that was sort of point one, which was Sedge Valley was postponed three to five years. After it was postponed, you know, Chris and I were talking and not wanting to sit on our hands as we're addicted, you know, creating new golf courses, we began to think about what other models we could explore, you know, golf models, but also how they're financed. A lot of things came together and led to the Lido, which is paid for by its members and is a completely different golf model

that doesn't compete with our, the public courses we make for the retail golfers. So we thought while we were in a sense waiting for such a valley to come back, we would stay busy and build something, great would be a lot of fun. And we thought we would resonate with our guests and members and the golf world at large.

Well, explain for the listeners that aren't familiar what the Lido is. I would have to imagine there's a lot of golf fans out there that probably don't have a full appreciation for what you're trying to bring to life. And I'm honestly probably one of them as well, because I just, I don't have the, I didn't really have the history lesson on it Before really speaking to you last month about it. So I so explain what it is first and how you're how you're going about bringing it to Wisconsin

So in broad strokes the Lido was a golf club formed in 1914 opened in 1917 in 1917, Long Island in New York. The course was designed by CB McDonald built by Seth Rainer. The property when they arrived on day one was six feet underwater, under sea level. And it was this massive engineering project, sort of the shadow Greek of its day, where the owner said to McDonald,

there's no budget and we want you to come up with your dream golf course, right, without the constraints of God, sand and money you could build anything you want. And the Lito is what he built, and it was one of his great masterpieces. The golf course, as we get more and more familiar with it, has so much in common with St. Andrews, where 13 of the holes here have shared fairways and greens.

You could certainly, when you're out there, feel the spirit of St. Andrews and the time he spent with Old and Jan Tom Morris in his formative years. I think unlike any other course in the country and any of his, you really feel that. With some glaring exceptions like the channel hall which plays over water twice, and the 18th hall which was designed by Alistair McKinsey and submitted as part of an architectural competition in Country Life Magazine. So that's what Lido was. It's financial difficulties in the 30s as many golf clubs and courses did. And in 1941 the Navy purchased the property and demolished it as part of the war effort.

And it was never rebuilt after the war. It ultimately became a housing development. That's the Lido about 20 or 25 years ago. Some people probably starting with George Bato, the great McDonald's historian, you know, began wondering if it could be restored. And there's basically a search on for a site to restore it. And it was something my dad was considering

in the mid 2000s, he ultimately decided not to and built an old McDonald instead, which was Tom Doak's use of the same templates that McDonald used, but fitted to the ground at Old Mac at Bandit. So now, here we are in Central Wisconsin, we had a site that fitted perfectly. The wind direction was a perfect match. Tell us about that. Slow down there. The wind rows. You got to, you got to, you blew my mind with

the wind rows. You know, whenever we started off course, we'd get the wind data. So there's a rose by month and it shows the direction and force, Wisconsin, they were almost identical, an identical in relation to the cardinal points in the compass. We have this perfect piece of ground where we could lay out the holes relative to North South as they were, and it just so happens, and we wouldn't have built the golf course

if this weren't the case that the wind is almost identical in direction and force to what existed, what is that 1500 miles, whatever, whatever far away it is on, on, on Long Island. So that was a certain dipitus discovery because the wind is so important to this golf course. There's not a single tree on the golf course and the wind just rips through it and it would nothing to obstruct it. So many of the holes run or sell and so you almost always have a cross breeze, which is one of the reasons, probably one of the reasons why the course is so wide, just enormously wide, fairways, huge greens, and shared fairways.

In one instance, three fairways, side by side by side, almost 180 yards wide. You needed that with because of the wind. So catch me up on how this golf course it was lost a long time ago, how there's data, how there's information on, you know, the intricacies of this golf course are probably what defines it, I would imagine. How did you guys go about accumulating this data? And I understand you had some help in that as well. We add tremendous help. Peter Florey is a banker from Chicago who's a, you know, golf, historian, golf nut, one of the top hickory golfers in the country.

At some point he went down, you know, the rabbit hole of studying this golf course. And while he did that, he began rendering the course in a 3D gaming computer gaming model. And he took his creation and he posted it on golf club Atlaslas and elsewhere. And what happened was people started coming to him out of the woodworks with a random photo or an article or some relic that they found in their grandma's basement. And he became this depository

because he crowdsourced the leado. He became this depository of people who just wanted him to win. Ultimately, they just wanted to see what it looked like and be able to play it on their computers. And I don't think anybody had imagined using that data to build it. But in being so generous with this creation and outsourcing, all the data came to him. And it allowed him to amass the greatest collection of historical artifacts on the Lido. You know, one thing he did was take some of those images

and seek out their prime source at the historical archives. So if he had a great photo, he went to the archives and made sure he had a copy of the super high resolution photo. So he's a great historian and he built the golf course in this model. And Tom Dough could have been a skeptic of doing this for decades when he sat down and went through Peter's body of evidence concluded that there was in fact enough to authentically restore this golf course as it was, you know, 80 years ago. It's just wild. And tell us about, you know, the bulldozers.

How did those work out there? So first off, there's a lot of them. You know, generally we do very little to the ground. And here, you know, we have to take, you know, one site and change it into another site, which is the LIDO. So one thing that's been a major help time-wise, as a starting point, another computer was on our team, Brian Settle, and worked in the in the maintenance department, took Peter's data in whatever form, you know, gaming format it was in and translated it into a grading plan. And then we took that grading plan and put it into a robotic GPS controlled bulldozer

who can grade that out to within less than an eighth of an inch. You don't even see the bulldozer tracks. It smooths it out, you know, with its blade. So that's a starting point for Tom and Brian Schneider and Renaissance Golf, that we grade in Peter's model, and then it's a starting point. And then they review all the same data that Peter did and check every assumption. And in some cases, we agree that it's pretty done close. And we could at least put in irrigation, and then they could finish the work. In other cases, they have draw different conclusions based off of their expertise.

And, but it's at least a great starting point and gets us very close to what it had been. And allows Tom and Brian and the team to really focus on the finished details and then just making sure every, you know, green and bunker is perfect. Yeah, I mean, I'm not a historian when it comes to the lead-o or really a lot of golf and I walk that golf course and with at the risk of overhyping it, we all kind of got in the car and was kind of like,

tell a little bit of quiet in the car. We're kind of like, that might end up being like one of the best golf courses in the world, right? And he was like, yeah, I was kind of thinking the same thing, but I didn't want to say it. Is it the 13th hole that we walked with you that has the mound that's right of the green with the small bunker in front of it?

Is that what I'm picturing? Yeah, the knoll hole. The knoll, yeah, that hole. Which is now seated. That green now has grass on in front of it. Is that what I'm picturing? Yeah, the knoll hole. The knoll. Yeah, that hole. Which is now seated. That green now has grass on it, so it's just a crisp. Well, that was like looking at that hole, even just with sand on it, I was like,

well, that is just pretty much an ideal design strategy golf hole. I immediately wanted to hit a golf shot. I wanted to try a bunch of different ways to use that mound right of the hole to get to it or could I hold it with a wedge, hitting it over that bunker as a shortage hole if I remember right like 360 yards or something like that and That that to me is just like scratching the the itch of what I think golf is kind of back to the original question of Navigating your way around the earth using the earth to try to get this damn thing in the hole. And it captured me there.

I mean, that was kind of like a light bulb moment of, I don't get to see a lot of golf courses that are in construction, but just kind of seeing it piece together is, it's kind of amazing. So that immediately wanted to chat with you about the Lido, because I think this is one of the more interesting projects in golf in terms of, and I was kind of confused as to what made it so revered. That kind of was, the cynic in me was thinking,

oh, just because it was lost, it's been overhyped a little bit, but I don't get the sense from talking to you that that's the case, or after seeing the side, I don't get the sense that it's overhyped in any way. Is that fair? It is, and I only say that because it's not, you know, our creation, it's somebody else's.

I wouldn't, I guess, brag if it was something that, you know, we imagine. That doesn't exist with a lot of courses out there right now. Where there are lost courses that were very good, but probably not worth restoring, right? Maybe should be left to history. We're pursuing this because it was so exceptional. We believe it was so good that it is worth bringing back to life because it teaches us so much about architecture, so much about McDonald's architecture,

which had such an incredible impact on all of architecture in America. But I think it will stand, particularly as we're seeing the work that Brian and Tom are doing, now that the holes are beginning to be finished. I think it will live up to that hype. There are 18 holes that are all completely different from one another, really no weakness and some really strong high notes.

It's a very strategic off course. When you have width and enormous greens and very thoughtful bunkering, that's where strategy is, that's where you find strategy. Depending on where the pin is and the direction of the wind, the holes are going to play so differently from one day to the next. And it's really, of course, you need to think your way around and one that will take a long time to truly understand and be able to navigate and appreciate the nuance, but it's pretty strong.

Well, a couple more here and we'll let you get out here, but total, let's do total dream scenario. And I will ask that you don't risk or don't be fearful of overhyping the future of San Valley. But lay out, lay out your ideal dream for the next, say, 20 years at San Valley. I've heard a number of potential courses thrown out there and, and, uh, well, I don't know if you want to share what you guys have in mind for, for total number of courses eventually or the possibilities that you have, but what does the future of San Valley look like?

No, it's fun because I generally try to stay very disciplined and just focusing on what's in front of us today and over the next two years, but it certainly is fun to dream about what could be from the golf standpoint, we have enough great land that varies like different land, great different ways, but enough great land for eight full lengths, you know, golf courses. So I would love to have between five and eight. One thing we say is if we don't think the next course can be better than every course before it, we're not even going to attempt to build it, right? What's the point? Let's go under the next site. And it's always strive, at least, for greatness.

So we have great land for five to eight courses. On top of that, Chris and I want to go heavy and alternative route. And I guess there's maybe a clumsy way to say it. Part three's precision courses, nine holes. I guess this is the first clumsy way to say it, you know, part three's precision courses, nine holes. I guess this is the first we've talked about it, but we're working on, you know, a very family-friendly nine-hole golf course, six-part three's, three short-part four's, but one that three, you know, high-swing speed scratch golfers would be delighted to play as well. Mixing concepts like that in between, in this case,

the Lido and Sedge Valley, and having a lot of those as well. So if you count each of those as a golf course, you know, why not have 15 total golf courses here at San Valley in 20 years? Beyond that, you know, an important part of our vision here, we're just beginning to put more effort into is restoring this national park, right? We have 13,000 acres that we're actively restoring, and we want to get that to 200,000 acres, so that San Valley is a place for anybody to come and enjoy the wilderness. If you're a golfer and want to walk your way through the dunes that way, great. But if you want to jump on a fat tire bike or bring your binoculars and go hunt for some birds, then we want those people to feel welcome here

as well. So we're also starting to grow the audience of this beautiful landscape. And, you know, at the beginning of this conversation, you're asking what is golf and, you know, beyond a teacher, it's a silly excuse to get outside in a beautiful place with your friends or family and have a great walk and talk and laugh and joke. But there are other ways to enjoy that landscape as well. And Chris and I really want to accommodate some of those other ways. 20 years to now, we wanna have a national park

with 15 golf courses of various lengths and sizes, but many, many other great activities for the golfer and non-golfer to enjoy as well. Ultimately, we want to bring people together in nature, you know, buddies, families, friends, together in nature, you know, enjoying wilderness and the outdoors and give them an experience to come back to at the end of the day where they can recuperate and be comfortable and talk about their adventures, you know, over a nice meal and then have a nice,

you know, soft bed rest their head at night. That's the ultimate vision and goal for San Valley. Wow. I was gonna say nothing with you guys seems like too big of a dream though, you know, from what you guys have accomplished in the last 25, 30 years and what not, it's you almost can't dream too big.

But the last one, so any update you can give us on what else is going on in the dream golf world outside of what you're directly responsible for. I know you mentioned some of the project in California. I've been kind of somewhat closely following the Cool Links project. What's the status of various potential projects around the world?

Well, I don't want to reveal too much because I want to come back on the show and if I reveal it all today, I'm going to open invite. I'll give you a little teaser. My dad is working on a project in Scotland and a project in Southern California. Chris and I certainly have our hands full here in Wisconsin,

but we're, I guess you'd say, pre-development at a site in Colorado and a site in Florida. And that's really where he and I are gonna spend, you know, I think, and that triangle between Florida, Colorado and San Valley will have our hands full for the next decade or two. So that's where all of our efforts and my in space will be. And my dad's still very busy, as I said in California, in Scotland, but also maybe some more things to come around

band it. And I'll let him speak to those. That's his base. Well, thanks Michael for joining today. This was a great insight into, you know, you know, ever changing landscape of options for people to go play and experience amazing golf. And it's one of the things that really gets me excited and makes me love golf even more. So thanks for all you guys have done for the game and for spending an hour with us sharing some stories really, really appreciate it. Well, we have a ton of fun doing it.

We always say people keep coming back. We'll keep building. So that's our commitment and thanks for giving me the opportunity to come chat with you. It's been a lot of fun and I look forward to our next conversation together. Awesome. Cheers. Thanks, man. See you. Bye. Give it a big thumbs up.

Be the right club today. That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Better than most. Better than most. Better than most.