No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 469: Mike Whan

Episode Date: August 26, 2021

USGA CEO Mike Whan joins to chat about his interview for the job, his role at the his USGA, how he views the USGA's role in the game, the distance debate, birfurcation, USGA venues, his management style, the future of women's majors, and a lot more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most Ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the no-ling up podcast solid here we have for the second time in no-ling up podcast history the CEO of the USGA on the podcast also for the fourth time I believe we have Mike one coming on the podcast, but the first time, a combination of those two, the new CEO of course of the USGA is Mike one. I just kind of throw it every possible question I could think of at him.

He answers everyone like you would expect Mike one would answer just was super appreciative of him coming on share and some insights, you know, very early on in the job and it will be fun to kind of check back in periodically with him as we go through his tenure as the CEO of the USGA. So, no link up is of course brought to you by our friends at Precision Pro Golf. Everyone needs a rangefinder. I cannot endorse this product highly enough. It is extremely affordable rangefinder. We use the NX9 slope for Precision Pro Golf. Does everything you could possibly want in a range finder, you can gun flags with it, you can do hills, bunkers, you know, where your runouts are gonna be going.

And right now our listeners can add the NX9 slope to their golf bag for $25 off. Use coupon code no laying up, all one word at checkout for $25 off the NX9 slope. It's got slope adjusted distances, it's got the built in magnetic cart mount, six times magnifications, got a crystal clear display and it offers hands down the best customer service and care of any rangefinder in the industry. Plus it's the

only rangefinder that's going to give you free lifetime battery replacements. If you have any issues ever with your with your rangefinder you can call them. They're going to get you taken care of. We've gotten so many messages about how tremendous their customer care has been. Again, everyone needs a rangefinder. You don't want to be the guy that is asking, you know, your playing partners to gun your yardage for you. Get it yourself at precisionprogolf.com. Use coupon code, no, laying up all one word at checkout for $25 off our favorite rangefinder the NX9 slope. Swing with confidence, hit more greens with precision progolf. Here's Mike one. All right. So last time you were on, you were downplaying the possibility that you might be taking the USDA job. How can we take anything you say

today? Seriously. Well, I don't know if you believe me, but it was true. I was, I was, I had told my wife we were going to take 2021 off. So the somewhere there's a book of the list of promises broken to Meg one, but I sort of said, let's just take 2021 off. We have a house in Reynolds in Georgia. We were going to kind of spend some late time and, you know, and then I talked to Stu Francis at the USGA and soon as I got off the phone, she, you know, she knew I was talking to somebody about a job and said, who was that? And I said, well, the

late plan might have to take a back seat. So yeah, I mean, just like you, I mean, when I thought of Mike, Juan and USGA, I didn't see the natural fit in the first conversation. So I think I was no different than a lot of the people that said, yeah, I know he's available and I know they're looking for a seat, no, but that probably doesn't work. And that's probably how I started the conversations too. Well, I want to get into some of that first, but a couple of just kind of background questions that I think will help dictate a lot of our conversation today. But what would you say is the purpose of the USGA?

And I don't know if this is different as well, but as well, the mission of the USGA. I don't know if you consider those to be the same thing, but I'm curious your answer to that. Yeah, I mean, so listen, I just started, so I'm doing a lot of time on the history of both the USGA and golf in America. And at the beginning, you know, 1894, five clubs came together to form the USGA to do really three things. They wanted to create national championships that all golf courses would buy into it, the national championship. Back then, courses were holding championships and saying, here's the US amateur winner of 1893.

And another course down the road to hold the same one and claim the same thing. There was discrepancies between the rules that different clubs would follow. They really formed the USGA to say, let's create national championships with the whole that the USA can buy into. Let's create a governing body that can really govern the sport, especially as it relates to rules and regulations within the sport. Let's create an entity by which that wakes up every day thinking about the future of the game.

Because if you run in the golf course, if you run in the tour, if you run in the membership program, and because I've done a lot of those things, your first thought when you wake up in the morning is generally about those members and their vocation and those opportunities at the USGA. I've said this to my EC board here many times. And I drive into work thinking about what's golf

gonna look like 50 or 100 years from now. I wish I could tell you I did that as the LPGA commissioner, but I got around to the future of the game, but it was only after I fixed the current day of the game. And the USGA, we don't spend as much time on the current day. We spend a lot more time asking, will our kids kids have a better opportunity through this game than we did? And if the answer is no, that's on us because nobody else is waking up thinking about that. Yeah, I definitely want to dive into that as well.

But also, I got admitted, I'm a little confused how the organizational chart works at the USGA. What is your job? How would you answer that question? Well, I mean, I'm the chief executive officer inside, you know, the building of the USGA. And like most CEOs, my job is to never be the smartest person in the room. And I think most CEOs get that, I've met a few that don't. And you know, your job is to put

the most talented people you can in the different, in the different functions and then get that group working together under a common goal. So I have a lot of direct reports. I think I have 10 direct reports. That's probably twice as many as I'm capable of handling. So figuring out how to organize the structure of the organization will be, will be one. Also, I think when you get that many direct reports or that many departments, you start getting more silos and even inside the building, you don't find the working together as natural. When you when you put businesses and departments together, the whole synergy thing happens without you having to do anything. So, you know, you sort of seen that in some of my early moves, you know, taking sales and marketing, putting together

in a chief commercial officer, make sure that those folks are of my early moves, you know, taking sales and marketing and putting together in a chief commercial officer, make sure that those folks are working on the same, you know, and the same, and you'll see more of that, I think, in the future. Is it safe to categorize that is, you know, if it was one of these two things, you are a organization manager, or, you know, the executive of that organization,

or you are the chief decision maker of the USDA, if you were categorizing it, one of those two things, which one would you categorize it as? I think people struggled with the term commissioner when I was at the LPG. I'd be on a plane, I'd say, I'm Commissioner. They'll go, what does that mean? Commissioner.

And I'd usually say, think of it as the CEO of the LPG. And they go, got it. So it's funny when you say to the CEO of the USGA, generally people understand what that means. And so my job is to not only lead the organization and make sure, you know, get the right talent, the right objectives and go in front of the hold us accountable to what we say we were going to do,

but also manage a board of directors in this case, a 15-member executive council to make sure that we're utilizing their strengths and independent skills and guiding us to a finished product. I mean, it's obviously I'm taking over business that started in 1894. So I feel the responsibility to not only go back and understand why they originally formed the USGA, but how we could make the people who formed it in 1894 more proud of, I've said this many times at the LPGA, I not only wanted to think like a founder of the LPGA,

but every day I thought we had a responsibility to make the founders proud because we could even think bigger than they could when they got together 70 years ago. I feel the same way here. There was an a vision that brought the USDA together. I have a responsibility to deliver that vision. And at the same time, I think when you wake up in 2021, you have a clear responsibility to make those people that came together that had the vision realized that the vision could be and is much more than that. And obviously the game both is and could be much more than what we thought in 1894. And I feel the responsibility to make sure that in in in 20 54, they're talking about some of the things we put in place in 2022. So what was your interview like? I get the sense that, you know, there's likely to be some disruption there already has been with someone like yourself

coming in from the outside. Did you lay out a plan for the future and that's what they were buying into? Who is even in charge of hiring you? I want you to wonder if you can tell us a little bit about that process. Yeah, so we have a 15 person executive committee board. I'll be honest with you. I used to come and present to the USGA at their annual meeting every year, probably for the first six years of my tenure at the LPGA. I'd give an update on the state of women's golf,

things we were doing together. We have a few programs that we run together with the USGA and the LPGA. And then they kind of stopped having that be part of their annual meeting, which actually didn't bother me because I'd fly in for 30 minutes and fly out and a lot of times they weren't anywhere close

to where I was located. But my take on the executive committee or the board of the LPGA was very much a old golf guys kind of club. I'm not sure if that's true, but that was my take. And I didn't spend a lot of time with them, but I remember thinking, these are these are impressive members of impressive clubs from all over the, you know, from all over the US kind of coming together and when they're done, they hand it to one of their buddies. And so I walked into 2020,

I think it was December 2020. It was a US women's open when I met the selection committee, which is about half of the board. And I remember thinking instantly walking in, this looks and feels like the LPJ board. What I mean by that is diverse, real successful business people, some of which were steeped and golf, and some of which quite frankly, had very little golf connection,

very much run like a board. I mean, a group that was looking for a CEO that would lead them, not they would lead him or her. And my impression of the executive committee before that was much more of they were running the USGA, and they had a team of people back in, you know, Far Hills, New Jersey that were executing those plans. And so given that that was my vision, one, I'm not an old golf guy from a great old club. And I don't fit in that bloodline. And two, I'm not going to do well in an environment where you tell me exactly what you want to achieve. And then I'll just go achieve it.

I mean, there's people that are really good at that. I'm not one of them. So I kind of walked in with that in Prussian and walked out thinking this, it felt very much like an LPGA board discussion. We were talking about bigger issues. I was, I was arguing with them. We were disagreeing. And, you know, if you know me, nobody enjoys an argument more than I do, just for the sake of, you know, getting all the ideas on the table. And I was amazed how much they were engaging and enjoying debate, because, you know,

they would say, well, we think, and I'd say, well, I think you're wrong. And then we'd go from there. And generally, my impression was the USDA wouldn't want that or enjoy that. But I was both surprised. And if you know me enthused, because if I find those kind of environments, that's where I think good things happen, where you're

sort of over yourself, you're focused on real world issues, and you're willing to debate about it as long as it takes. Yeah, that's what I found interesting on the whole thing was I would consider you, in golf in general, a bit outside the box and that is what the strength that you bring to the table. And while I thought it was a great idea for you to be hired out, I also thought, yeah, the USJ probably won't do that. Like, there's no reason for them to go outside the box in that regard, but here we are. And I want to talk a little about that as well. But is it fair to say, you know, you worked for golf equipment companies in the past. You worked for Wilson, you worked for Taylor

maybe also you worked at Proctor and Gamble, Bright Smile, Mission, Hockey. Is it fair to say before your tenure with the LPGA, you weren't necessarily a golf purist. And I'm wondering what your relationship is like with the game of golf now after over a decade as the LPGA commissioner. Yeah, I think that's fair to say. It's probably still fair to say that I'm not a golf purist. And when I'm in a lot of these meetings, and people start talking about where they played college golf, I tend to go get a diet coke at and kid, you know, growing up golf and football always conflicted Which probably was good news because I'm not sure I could have made the golf team But I could always blame it on the fact that it was football season and yeah, I think from the beginning I think I was interesting to the Wilson's and Taylor mates of the world because it came from this classic marketing background If you remember, it's weird to say now, but if you go back to the 90s late 80s early 90s golf was evolving from

Essentially, where club manufacturers would walk in and talk to the club pro. That club pro would sit on the range and talk to his members and then those members would buy that product from the pro shop and it was turning into a marketing game. It was creating demand. You were walking into Dick Sporting Goods and Nevada Bob's golf and buying things online and so it was really becoming a pretty significant marketing game as opposed to a relationship only game.

And, you know, who knew that pro from that club and that club, what guy was only going to carry three brands? How are you going to become one of those three brands? So I was intriguing because I was probably more of an outsider and knew how to market and create consumer demand more than I knew the insiders of the game of golf. And the good news for me is every place I've been, whether it's been Wilson Taylor made and even the LPGA and not certainly at the USGA, I'm surrounded by plenty of insiders who who understand that pipeline who are who are connected in that pipeline and also understands the pros and cons of that pipeline. I don't have to bring that to the table because one I couldn't

even now all these times later. I don't think anybody would look at Mike when I go, yeah, he's he's pure golf, you know, from top to bottom. I don't know, I've ever been described that way, and I'm probably not gonna be described that way, even in the job I'm in. But I'm not ashamed or quite frankly afraid of the fact that I surround myself with a lot of pure golf talent. I was gonna say the more I think about it,

the more that almost, the pure golf aspect might get in the way more than it does actually help in some of the decisions, some of the issues that come across your desk. I think in the way more than it does actually help in some of the decisions, some of the issues that come across your desk. I think at the USG, I think the real question we had in my first election committee meeting is, are you interested in maintaining the status quo? Are you excited about how the championships were in 1972 and how we ran the amateur in 1989 and exactly how we're doing

handicapping and agronomy and the green section and if other things are we love it. We really don't want to get off the track. We're on as I remember saying to that group, I'm not your guy, you know, because delivering more of the same and not challenging the status quo, I don't have it in me. So I mean, I think what the EC or the board had to decide is, do we want, you know, kind of transformational, do we want somebody to kind of change and challenge some of these things, including us, you know, make us uncomfortable, or do we really like, you know, do we really want to keep things as is and just continue to kind of put the pedal down in the same direction we're already going, because I said to them, I would know how to keep you going in the same

direction, even if you asked me to, you know, good moment because when you get to a certain age of your life, I'm a 56. And to me, I'm only going to be excited if I'm at a place where I'm learning, surrounded by talented people, and have a lot of room on the leash. And if you've got a pretty significant leash law, I'm going to be miserable. You're going to be miserable. So, let's not waste each other's time. And I think that's kind of what got us both there is they understood that I mean, I know the game. I know the people that play the game. I'm not I'm not such an outsider that it's going to take him two years to figure out You know who runs the PGA tour or one of the key players at the RNA those you know that's falling off a log for me But at the same time I wasn't going to simply say well, that's that's how we did it in 1985

So that sounds great for 2022. What are the biggest issues on your desk at this point? And you could define that any way you'd like. What do you view as your biggest priorities here in your first year? Well, no matter where I'd go, no matter what business I'd walk into, I start, you know, I start with people in the talent because there's, you know, no CEO can fix anything on their own. If they think they can, they're just not going to be a CEO in the talent because there's no CEO can fix anything on their own. If they think they can, they're just not going to be a CEO in the future. They'll just have to learn that the hard way. If you get the talent right on the inside, then the business is going to move faster than

any CEO can envision. When I think about talent and leading, I think about it both internally and externally. The other thing I really believe in is what I call lead in a huddle, which is we might have to make a final decision on something, but we need to be making that with the industry, not just for the industry. So it's I'm spending a lot of time outside the building, making sure I hear people's points of view on all the different aspects of how the USGA touches the business. What's interesting for me, Chris, kind of coming in here, I guess I knew

this, but when you see it firsthand, it's really quite different. As the USGA is very comfortable. Quite frankly, they're, um when you see it firsthand, it's really quite different. Is the USGA is very comfortable. Quite frankly, they're confident in their ability to be a role player in the game. What I mean by that is, you know, in basketball, you're talking about role player, you've got to set a bunch of picks today, you've got to play defense more today.

Next week, I need to be a score. The USGA plays so many different roles in the game. Sometimes their role is just writing a check to somebody else's really important initiative. Could be first-tier drivetripper putter, you know, girls golf. And if that's where they're needed on that project to get into the next level. In some cases, it might be kind of behind the scenes, but the real engine, where you're talking about the gym system with world-handicapping or, you know, a granami with golf courses or world-world course ratings. Those are important

things to the game that, quite frankly, may not be a sexy, but it's an important role that the USDA plays to kind of keep the game rolling. Sometimes they got to be a cop, you know, in the game. And with the RNA, set standards and regulations, whether we're talking about amateur status or testing of equipment, et cetera. And, you know, that's a pretty prominent role. Sometimes it's, you know, creating the best championships in the world. So amateurs at any age or pros at any age have a, have a panacea to shoot for in the world. So amateurs at any age or pros at any age have a panacea to shoot for in their career. So I find it's interesting how, you know, at the LPJ, generally, if we got involved, we were in the front of the parade, probably carrying the flag. At the USGA, sometimes they're in the parade, sometimes they're funding the parade,

sometimes they're in the front of the parade. And they're very comfortable in that role realizing that if we're going to grow this game, we don't have to be the answer to every solution. But we have to find the solution and make sure the answer gets to the marketplace. And in some cases, we don't have to be visible. In some cases, we have to be the most visible. And in some cases, we have to band the industry together to get there. So this kind of dual, these dual roles, even on some of the same topics, we can have a lot of different roles within the game, even in the same top again.

Again, Mike won sort of former commissioner. I'm used to just grabbing the flag and you guys follow me. Here's where we're headed. And I'm realizing that the cool thing about the USGA is there are roles in the game because they're much more concerned about the end of the game than they are about the about the stats book. And that's, that'll be a good one for me, not only to learn, but to foster because it's, it's one of the things that makes the USGA special. It's one of the reasons why the game is healthy. So one of the things you said there about banding the industry together, it would lead me into my next topic, which I haven't feel like you may know, know that this was going to come up at some point. But I'll ask this question to kind of kick off this topic.

Is there a distance issue in golf? You know, I'm proud of you, Chris. You waited 16 minutes. So that's you win the over underbed. I would have said within five. You know, I think the bottom bottom bottom line when it comes to distances, the question is, should we be concerned, you know, about the venues that support golfers in the next 50 to 100 years. I don't think anybody

wakes up today and worries about their golf course 50 or 100 years so now that's our job. You know, that's our job. That's our job together with the RNA. I don't think there's any way you could not have concerns about the highest level of the game and kind of what's happening to par fives and 480 yard par fours still being a driver in a wedge. And so if I think if you just turn to blind eye to that and say, well, it's exciting. And everybody loves the long ball, which is true. And I fit into those categories as well. At the same time, you got to make sure

that everybody loves the long ball, doesn't turn into 50 years from now, your kids have dramatically fewer places to play because the game couldn't sustain the game. So I've said this many times, you know, I'm not here to preserve golf. I mean, that's not my, I mean, Crocane is preserved.

And there's a reason why nobody wants to play it anymore because it's exactly what it was 200 years from now. And that's great. It's really got protected. So I'm not afraid of changing the game. I love the modernization rules of the game that came out. I love the fact that championships keep growing and making a bigger social impact than what they did,

just 10 years ago. So to me, games either, games either progress or they die. And so when you talk about progressing, one of the things you have to ask yourself is you have the role, Mike, as does Martin. And one of those roles is you've got to be the traffic cop. What's the speed limit by which we can make sure that this game can survive for the next 50 years? I don't have the answer to that yet, but I'm also not going to shy away from that responsibility.

Quick break to checking with our friends at Walker trolley. I got to tell it. Absolutely true story was at Jack's Beach the other day putting my trolley away. Some guy walked up to me as I was at the back of my car. I said, what is that thing? You know, it's it's eye popping, it's catching. I know it sounds like I'm lying, but this actually really did happen. He said, what's the name of that push card company? I said, it's Walker Trolley and I said, watch this. Did the cool little flip up where it goes right in the trunk?

He asked me again, what the name of it was. I said, it's Walker Trolley. And listen, the Walker Trolley K-1.5, number one premium push card in the market. It's got a classic style, but also an ample use of modern technology, polished aluminum frame, these waxed canvas and leather. It's a trolley that truly does stand out

all over the golf course. This thing is something that people will notice. Not just an outstanding product, they pride themselves on their customer service that are always available by email or phone. They're also offering a new sand and water bottle holder for free with the purchase of a trolley. Just add both to your cart

and the discount will be applied automatically. If you're an existing trolley customer, you can get $10 out the sand and water bottle holder using code NLU free now through the end of August. So go to walkertrolleyes.com today. If you want to walk the course in style, bring your game to a new level. I know walking is huge and golf right now. It hope it continues that way and everyone needs a push cart to go along the way. It makes you want to walk.

You get a little exercise out of it. And again, this thing is going to turn some heads. So walkertrawies.com, let's get back to Mike one. Well, I can ask this in a couple of ways, but I'll do it the cynic way, right? I could say, all right, I'm a doubter of Mike one. You used to work for an equipment company here. I think we have a big distance issue in the game of golf. If I'm sitting in that chair, what makes you the right guy for this? I'm a little worried about having you in that position if I could be cynic about it. Well, if you were a cynic of Mike one, there's probably an online group you can join that

not be of jackets. So that's fine. I mean, if you're worried about cynics of this job, then you should be taking the job. What I would say to you is, again, everybody believes what they believe, but what I would say to you is one of the things that makes the game of golf great and I think every cynic and every fan up there has to think about this is the fact that this morning when I woke up, 5,000 engineers around around the world woke up to trying to make the game more fun, more playable, more exciting for you. Nobody woke up this morning with the same idea for darts, you know, and they're not trying to, so nobody's spending hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D to make other sports exciting. When I see that box under the Christmas tree

that looks like a golf club that my wife wrapped up, I'm pumped up. I don't know if it's gonna make me better or worse, but I'm excited about next season on the golf course. When we say that there's a new golf tournament, whether it's on the LPGA or PGA Tour, your PUT Tour, et cetera, almost from the beginning,

you can tell you that 30% of the advertising inventory is gonna be bought by brands that are fully invested in the excitement of the game and the title is pennies, PXG, Taylormates, Caloys. I think as the head of the USGA, I can't ignore that because I think if that goes away, we feel a lot more like tennis a lot faster, which is, you know, there isn't a ton of tennis ball technology or tennis net technology being invested from an R&D perspective because

there's going to no room to go there. So I got to figure out a way to go with the RNA and my team here at the USGA that we protect the game for the next 50 or 100 years. And I don't think we're, I don't feel like, you know, we're under this onslaught tomorrow where every golf or on every golf course has absolutely the bunkers on the left of 10. But I also think we can say, if any golf course wants to host an elite high end level of, you know, kind of professional play,

there's probably going to play that golf course not in the way the designer intended it, which is okay. But then the question is, if you jump that forward 30 years, are we still okay and finding those venues but I'm but I have zero desire in that answer being you know what I did I just threw a wet blanket over the future of innovation golf will never be from equipment's perspective better than this line I just drew in the sand all you engineers go home R&D's

not needed that would be a great way to solve a problem by napalming, as opposed to by actually figuring out a way that we can still have excitement. I think the end of this run is, we're going to do what we've done for, you know, 100 years at the USJ. We're going to find standards that we think keep us within the track. And at the same time,

provide a lot of opportunity for engineers to wake up tomorrow, getting creative in all other kind of areas to make the game exciting. I think the fact that this sport has so many partners, so many manufacturers invested in making it more fun, more exciting and potentially even easier for the average golfer is one of the things that sets us apart from every other sport. You may not agree with that, but I can tell you if somebody who's lived on both sides of the track, I know that makes our game exciting.

It makes it more televised. It makes it more interesting.. It makes it more interesting. And it makes fans feel different about the game than they feel about other sports that are certainly hard to play. And they simply walk away from. So I think the people that I'll sit next and are going to play and go, this is easy.

Just make the ball 40 yard shorter and move on. That's great. I'm glad I sat next to you. But I don't want to solve distance and kill the game. That makes a lot of sense. It sounds like, you know, you don't want to take away the thrill from the amateur golfers, but you sounds like you'd be in no uncertain term said, you know, you'd be crazy not to think that there might be an issue at the highest level.

So there is a word for that. I'm wondering that word is bifurcation. And if I'm taking those two answers and combining it that's kind of where I Could potentially see things going it's a stance. I've I've held for quite some time Do you anticipate bifurcation being a serious option to curb any distance issues that may exist in golf? I think one of the things I thought when I walked in the US is there to have the answer You know, they're just waiting through a process of a feedback and going back and forth But that's not really true. I mean, I mean, I'd be honest honestly say to you that a process of a feedback and going back of work, but that's not really true. I mean, I'd be honest, honestly, say to you

that this process of working with the industry is real. There's not some, there's not something hidden in the safe back in room 403B, and when it time comes, we'll just go break the glass and unveil it. We're building this together with the RNA and with the feedback of the industry. I've said this many times, bifurcation doesn't scare me. I get why it scares others.

I spent enough time in the manufacturing world to know there's more bifurcation already than we talk about, but that's okay. But I also understand that the benefits that make, again, to make our game special and the fact that we all play by the same rules and generally speaking,

you can hit the same wedge that Phil hit at the PGHAP chip, or you can get Dustin Johnson's driver, kind of built to your spec versus his. And I think if we can address distance in a meaningful way, for the future of the game, not necessarily in a way in which the doesn't require us to dive deep in bifurcation, I'd prefer it.

If it's not possible, I'm not afraid of it. But I understand the arguments against it. And so like I would say, you going into this, what I would say is it's certainly not off the table. I hope we don't have to go there, but you know, that'll be a process to find a solution that we really believe can work for everybody. And most importantly, believe at the end of it, we've finished whatever we're going to do in terms of the next stage on the distance front. the most important thing is I have to be on a walkoff that stage, look at anybody in the face and say, I think the game will be just as healthy tomorrow as it was today. I think there'll be just as much excitement over the future. And I think that's an important

part. I think if you simply, like I said, there's an easy way to put a candle out, dump a bucket, bucket of water on it. But I'm not really sure that's the best way to make sure that there's still a flame long term. And that's the thing that I have more appreciation for when it comes to the conversation that I probably had maybe four or five years ago is just how much the change in golf just represents evolution, right? And, you know, baseball analytics have changed the way baseball has played basketball analytics have changed the way baseball is played. Basketball analytics have changed the way basketball is played. And technology, you know, not only analytics and technology,

but analytics just at the highest level have exacerbated distance issue. And I'm just wondering how your view has shifted on this if at all since you took the job. What's up, maybe you didn't know or give enough credence to or what stakeholder had you not really considered. I'm wondering if there's been any evolution.

I know you've been in the seat too long, but I wonder if there's anything you can relate to there. You know, the thing that's interesting to me is what I did when I first got here on the topic of equipment standards, as I went back and looked at the history of equipment standards, and it's funny every time the USJ and the RNA announced some kind of adjustment. There was always a sort of a caveat at the end that says that they reserved the right to make changes as technology and skill and accuracy change.

So I think every time they've announced a regulation, there's always been a caveat that says, this won't be the last time we revisit this. I think if you want to critique the RNA and the USDA and myself, you can critique the fact that maybe we've, there's been a pretty big break between our last time and now. And so this is probably something we would probably have to keep a closer eye on going forward, but I don't, but I don't, I don't think that anybody, and when they said this, when they said something in 1986 or 2004 or 2008 believed, that's it. We're done with this and we'll never come back to this again.

I think they've always looked at equipment standards and said, this is the right decision at this day and time, and we'll re-look at this on a regular basis. Last one, I got two questions related distance and I promise we will move on. One, I get this argument a lot. People will say, why do I care how far, you know, I play the game at my local course. I play at 6,000 yards, whatever. Why do I care how far the Tor Pros hit it?

Well, what would you say to that? What do you believe that there is a trickle down effect at all? Even if there is, if this distance issue is exacerbated at the highest level, how do you interpret the trickle down effect of that through the rest of the game? They're wrong. There is an absolute impact on the game. I'd listen, I was the LPJ Commissioner for 12 years.

I never met a golf course owner. Most people who own a golf course, think about another one, but I've met a lot of guys that were building their golf course for the first time. Not just in America, but all around the world. One of the things they'll tell you at some point is that I'm building it, I get 8300 yards because I want to be able to host championships here.

There's very few golf courses that wouldn't want to host a college event, a corn fairy event, an LPGA tour, European tour event. At some point in high school, a high school golf event, you want your venue to be a championship venue. So if you don't think new designers are being asked to make sure that we create a set of tees at 8500 yards, you're not paying attention. If you don't think about what your own golf course has done in the last 10 or 15 years, if they had any money to do it, I'm sure that there were fairway bunkers in places that there wasn't before. I'm sure that there are key boxes behind you. And the reality of it is, and you know this, Chris, we probably should be spending a lot more money as an industry on

forward tea boxes than back tea boxes. I mean, there's a greater need in terms of volume for a tea box where somebody hits the ball 125 yards than there is for somebody who hits the ball 325 yards, but building a 125 t doesn't lead you to hosting bigger things that might get your event on television or might get your golf course talked about all around the world or you and I would be here talking about your golf course. So and then when you have an 8500 yard golf course you've got to maintain it. You're going to have a few hundred thousand dollars a year in maintaining a golf course of 2000 yards longer in the world of you know in the world of stability which I think is easy for us on the East Coast

not the pay attention to but where I came from in California, Arizona, watering is going to be the toughest is going to be the toughest kidney stone to pass for golf long term. All of those things are impacting golf courses, even if they're not impacting you on a golf course. So this is a great example of, if you would say Mike won, single handy cap golf or who plays golf every weekend, if there are distance problems. Not for me, those bunkers are still in play. I hate them because I can hit every one of them.

The guys I play with aren't obsolete leading a golf course. But I know my golf course wants to host major championships. I've seen new teas and distance added and that matters. And that's okay. I mean, I'm excited that they want to do that. I mean, that's the part of the exciting part of golf is, you know, even golf courses want to think big and get excited about the future. But I think if 500 yards is no longer a part four in the not too distant future at the championship golf level, you know, we're going to run out of space. Not for us. We can all kind of live our life.

Fat, I'm unhappy. We can, we can live through global warming and not worry about it. Or you can say, you know, if we don't, we don't make changes, then our kids kids probably have issues that we left them. I feel the same way in golf. Like I can, I can finish this job and not make any of these decisions and keep fans happy with me. But I'm not sure I'd be delivering the mission of it. Am I fully committed to leaving the game a golf better for my kids kids? If that's the case, then some of these topics

like this one, I can't just turn the page. Yeah, I think that's what some people struggle with is just understanding how that cost of the ball going far gets passed down to the user, you know, and, you know, that's passed down to your green fee, the extra maintenance that goes into running the business of golf. And like, if you keep pulling on that string, I was kind of alarmed. I was out of a construction site of a new golf course here in Jacksonville. And the guy that was building it said, ask me, like, how many golf courses do you think are being built in the United States right now? And I think his answer was like eight or 10. And you compare that to 15 years ago pre financial crisis. How many golf courses were being built at the same time? Like while golf is to have it experiencing

an enormous booming people getting out and playing it, the business of running golf courses has has come I don't want to say come to a screeching halt in the last decade or so, but it has gotten affected to the point that a lot of people probably don't realize. Now here's so many people say, we just need to build more accessible and affordable golf courses. And I don't think they can make it's, it's maybe a long string connecting the two dots between distance, but there is a connection that gets all the way down to, you know, that granular level. I'm more if you have any reaction any of that what I just said.

Yeah, I mean, you're 100% right. It's one, I think we're from a golf perspective. I think we're actually in a better space today that we were 10 or 15 years ago, meaning amount of golf demand for golf clubs available, you know, the interesting right now through the pandemic is, you know, the most golf clubs are really full. And they've been wanting to be really full for 25 years. So it's a good experience at a golf course where I think they went through a couple of lean decades of, you know, trying to get more players on on their golf course. So I hope we don't go through an over build again. I mean, a lot of times, you know, these over builds come more about

about selling homes than about golf courses. And then when the homes are sold, you don't know if they cared about the golf course, but these things do matter. Like I said, if you spend time like I do, I mean, I'm at a golf course at least once a week, all around the world. And everybody, if they're not building a golf course, which isn't the craze today, but everybody's investing something in their golf course, and I can promise you that one of the core elements of any golf course that's at the high end and has the money is is adding length adding T boxes lower, finding more space. And if the if the future is X number of acres is needed for a golf course, you certainly won't see

a golf course in any really accessible diverse communities. They're going to be way out, you know, in the burbs, it's the only place where you could get the land that way. And you're going to find less and less of them west because you can't afford to to water them. So like I said, it was when I was the commissioner of the LPGA, I would think about things like distance or those kind of things and think, you know, I'm fine. The LPGA is an opsening the golf courses. We're playing from the blue teasers and other set of teas behind everyone of the golf courses like somebody else's problem, which is true as the LPGA commissioner, somebody else's problem. But, but I didn't wake up or walk into a board or read a

mission every day when I walked in saying, you know, are we fully committed to the future of the game to make sure it's better for the next generation? I feel like, you know, if we don't take this serious, that's fine. And all of us will have a great golfing experience in our lifetime. But we're handing our kids kids a game that's that's tougher to grow than today. And you know, it's it wouldn't take much on our part. You know, feel like we've continued to to provide a game that's better. And you made the comment before about other sports. I mean, you know, us making some changes whether they're rule changes or equipment changes, that kind of

stuff. Now, it just makes us like every other growing sport. I mean, in three points shots and basketball and shot clocks and moving the field goals back and football, I mean, sports evolve. tennis ball has gotten faster and are slower over the times. Do you know, kind of keep the game within the foot prints. So we're not unique here in golf in terms of ask ourselves questions about how do we make sure the game is just

just around 50 years from now as it is today. I mean, we're certainly not the only sport have in that discussion of the daily basis. Right. Yeah, I think back to baseball changed its ball. I think a couple times in the last several years, but it's just a different, different animal when part of the marketing piece of this game is the differentiation between the golf balls. So I think that, I think that that puts a, puts a bow on all that. I think we've solved all the distance problems in the game of golf here. Moving on to championships a little bit here. And I want to start with this. The USGA signed an

enormous deal with Fox several years ago. I would go as far to say, it innovated golf on television. I brought a so much more protracer. They tried a lot of stuff. It brought us drones. I had limited commercial interruption. Fox got out of that deal for a variety of reasons. It's the only deal I've seen in golf on television. I think that was really, really great for the viewer. And maybe that's why Fox ended up getting out of it. But NBC took that over for a fraction of what it was in 2021, US Open was decidedly not limited commercial interruption. What can we expect from future US Open telecasts? And I'm wondering what your view is just on on how the championships, champs are presented on television.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think the Fox, you know, Fox innovation pushed, you know, pushed other innovations in TV. And that's good. I think we'll see the same from NBC's and CBS's in the world in terms of, because I think, you know, more and more television is coming in sport and certainly coming in golf. I think the good news about the USGA is, you know, more and more television is coming in sport, and certainly coming in golf.

I think the good news about the USGA is, you know, most of our championships are actually presented without TV interruption, thanks to Rolex and their investment in those investments. Can't really do that on the US open relative to obviously the investment that NBC and so many others have made into that championship. I didn't get to see it on TV because I saw it there locally,

but I've got the telecast to rewatch. Well, I'll look at that with the same eyes and the question you just asked, but I don't have any concern about whether on NBC and golf channel are committed to, you know, to innovative fan-watching experience. I think the most important thing that's coming is, is just how many ways in which you're going to be able to watch championships. I mean, you know, I'm an old guy, so, you know, my 20-year-old kids, when I see them watching things on their phone, that I figure they're just getting updates, but they're watching sports on their phone. They're getting prompts while they're watching another sport to say,

Ram's putting on 17 for a birdie to take the lead, and they'll yell, hey, turn it over to NBC. So, I mean, the ways in which we can connect, not just in the US, but all over the world with our championships is pretty unique. The ways in which I think we can sort of get to know these players. One of the things I love about NBC and Golf Channel,

which I liked at the LPJ is, they're pretty good storytellers on the individual because of their Olympic experience, I think. I think it's sort of in their DNA. But the ability to tell the stories of these amateurs, whether they're amateurs, mid-AM, senior-AM, you know, whether they're professional players that are reaching the peak of their game. I just really think they're they're good storytell, Megagogna, the U.S. women's open. I think, obviously she's an incredible player and had an incredible week, but I think NBC did a nice job of bringing her story to life. I think

that's important for the game. our championships or just championships in somebody who raises the trophy fine. But if we think of them more like Olympic moments where you get an opportunity to meet people and their journey, because almost everybody's one of the things I've learned as the LPJ commissioners, their journeys are all different and we can all relate to some part of their journey.

It may not be some girls from Thailand and you think, well, I don't have any common with her and then you actually get to know her and realize, wow, I mean, she's, she's done with a lot of the same challenge either I did or my kids did or, you know, her challenge with diet is the same as my son or, you know, she lived in seven different schools before she got the high school. And I sort of did that to my kids. You start to connect with these athletes.

I think NBC does a great job of bringing these individual stories to life. And that's why I think, you know, it's hard to watch one of these championships and not feel it emotionally as opposed to just celebrate a good golf outing. And I think I want to challenge you a little bit on this just because I have gotten great, great benefit out of the US women's open being commercial free and the US amateur coverage and you can flip it on and you can watch golf and you don't know when

you can get up to go to the bathroom. That's super, super engaging. And I felt that up until even through 2020, when NBC took over for the first time, I felt that same kind of the importance of the presentation of the championship. And the masters has has delivered this basically since the beginning of it being on television was how important their product was being presented. And if I'm looking at the hours of coverage on NBC this past year were enormous, but it took they wanted you to go to peacock in the morning and then

golf channel in NBC and then peacock for the last hour. And it felt it felt, you know, for someone that took the, took the contract over for 30 cents on the dollar or whatever it was, I was a little annoyed by it, honestly. And I'm just, if it made me like, I went from thinking, wow wow the USGA has really cared and taken action on presenting its championships in a meaningful way for viewers back to man I'm feeling like I'm being sold again and I'm just wondering what your perspective is on that on the presentation of the product when it comes from the USGA. I think first off I'm not going to change your opinion. That's what you felt. And I'll, I mean, I hear you.

What I'll tell you is I'd say three things that are, I think, fairly going to be, you're going to prove themselves to be out true. Number one is, you know, no, no group of people changes less easily in my opinion than golfers. I mean, you know, there's love, love their tradition, love the way it was last year, and why did you change it this year? You want to talk about Fox innovation. I remember hearing all the people going, stuff all this tracer stuff. And now you wouldn't want to watch a major without tracer.

So we don't change. Well, people thought the dropping from the knee was like, you know, was anti-christ. What do we do in drop of the knee? And now you look back and go, drop of the knee is pretty simple. You grab a ball, you bend over your drop of your knee. But in the moment of change, we don't do well.

I will tell you that I think in 2030, you'll have four different channels in which you can watch you know the US, US open and you'll flip between them yourselves anyway and flipping between them will be pretty commonplace because you will have done that for all kinds of other things and maybe you just really want to watch John Rahm all day and he's available on that streaming offer as opposed you want to watch the network where you're showing this and so I think the whole idea of a lot of different ways to take in 12 to 14 hours a day of a championship is going to become commonplace.

I think five years now you're going to look back and go, I can't believe I thought that was challenging. Because now I wouldn't want to live without all the different ways in which I can stay engaged in a championship. As opposed to the TV window is from three to seven. And that's our window. And after that, we move on to such and such. I think these these windows are going to give us an opportunity to say if you're a crazy fan, we're going to give you crazy different ways in which you know in which to follow us.

I think those are just that's just a given in the future. And like I said, I think people will kind of get will kind of view those as as commonplace. I think the when I think about the US open returning to the NBC and golf channel, it was so much about leading into it and afterwards that that was different, I think, than the fact experience. I mean, we watched the longest day in golf. We saw what it's really like to be in the US open. I mean, there's a lot of things that call themselves open, but nothing's as open as the US open and getting into it, even if you're a tour player, is the, it's the toughest field

to get in. Let alone the toughest golf course to play at that time. So watching the whole process of getting to qualification you never saw that before and we see came back interviewing these guys the minute they actually made their last pot find out who they are where they're from and how they just got into the open. Those things were available the week where we ran a three-part series about the about setting up USJ's tracks setting up Tory and about you know Zander returning to his home was all kind of built into again not things that you would see from another network

That was probably focused on other sports right up until it was time to televised the US open So I think the surrounding piece the story telling piece makes it the significantly different and I think it might be easy If you to forget about those things, because you're thinking about the four hours you watched on Sunday, but I really believe that what we had there, we had an event, and we had a lead-in and a lead-out of that event, that quite frankly wasn't available prior to the return to golf channel NBC. It doesn't mean it's not doable. It just means that, you know, when golf is what you do with the golf channel, and NBC had so many different options in which to bring it to you, they're able to kind of tell these stories. I watched the It just means that, you know, when golf is what you do with the golf channel, and NBC had so many different options

in which to bring it to you, they're able to kind of tell these stories. I watched the Olympics in the last few weeks, and I watched it in six different channels. It wasn't normal, but I realized as I was doing it, it will be the normal. If I wanted to watch volleyball, I could go find volleyball, but what needs to find it?

But I could go find it. That's so much better for the fan than the old days of our television window is from three to six. We'll than the old days of our television windows from three to six. We'll show you what we wanna show you from three to six. And that's the deal, take it or leave it. 20-year-olds don't play that game anymore. And I think the cool news about golf is we're gonna start to be able to bring,

not only majors, but championships in general, that kind of freedom, that kind of variance, that kind of pick what you wanna watch. I get it, as a standard golf watcher, you saw a difference there, but I don't think that'll be different in five years. I get it as a standard golf watcher, you know, you saw a difference there, but I don't think that'll be different in five years. I think it'll be, it'll be a requirement. On the men's championship side, do you feel like there is work to be done regarding the relationship between the USGA and top men's pros? Do you feel like there's been improvement

in recent years and what kind of sense do you get as you come into the job? I expect it to be more more challenged because I think, you know, I always say this in sports, you generally remember what happened three or five or 10 years ago. You and I've had this conversation before, but when I first started at the LPG, if you were to ask me about the NBA, I would have talked about practice.

We talked about practice and choking coaches, and that wasn't true. That wasn't LeBron, that wasn't KD, but I was, or I'm a baseball I was thinking about, corked bats and semi-sosa, and that wasn't true either. That wasn't LeBron. That wasn't KD. But I was, or I'm a baseball I was thinking about, corked bats and Sammy Sosa. And that wasn't true either. That wasn't the current game. And I think, you know, I kind of walked in

and sort of my stereo type of USGA, and maybe Men's Pros was back to those moments. But I didn't feel that anyway. I mean, I talked to quite a few pros, agents, because I don't really know the men's side of the game. At least I don't know the people. I know the people who run that side of the game, but I don't really know the athletes's side of the game. At least I don't know the people. I know the people who run that side of the game, but I don't really know the athletes

and their agents and their caddies. So if I spent more time just on the range and reducing myself and Tori, and usual on the women's side, I do know most of those players, and I do know most of those journeys. So I wanted to kind of learn some of the journeys to get there, but the end of the day, I think.

One of the things that is pretty clear to me is if you say to yourself, we're gonna create the toughest test in golf, at least once a year, and try to identify who the best golfer is in the toughest, you know, both physical and mental challenge. It's going to be difficult to be everybody's best friend. But I do think, as Jason Gors said to me when I, when I first met him, you know, we were, we were actually hitting balls on a range.

He said, as tour players, we can handle whatever you're going to throw at us. And we can, we understand that sometimes the course will get the better of us vice versa. You just want you to be authentic. You know, just take a, take a great golf course, make it tough and get out of the way. That's something I can support. I mean, get a pick a golf course, make it tough and get out of the way. And you know, to me at the end of the day, we have to get over at the USGA, a minus 12 winning and open when the win doesn't blow or the range doesn't sign

or some guy plays completely out of his mind. And I think maybe in the past, we've worried more about the number than putting on an authentic test. And so I can handle the five million people that want to send me an email someday if 14 under wins the US Open. As long as we believe we created a great golf course,

we created the toughest test, and we got out of the way. So, you know, I think it's when you feel, oh, no, somebody's at nine under. How do we get them back to four under is when you can kind of get off-kilter, and that'll be my challenges. Because all these athletes really want is you give me, you set it up, you give me the venue, and then, and then for those four days, it's my show after that. And that's, I think that's fair. I don't think anybody at the Super Bowl ever gathered at half time and said 31 to 28.

That's too high. How do we slow down the scoring? I mean, I think once you get the, once those athletes have made it to that level and you've set up the venue, then whatever happens inside the ropes happens inside the ropes and you just gonna have to applaud that either way. I think I learned that probably the hard way

a few times at the LPGA, but once you learn that, you never forget it. Yeah, that's the thing. I think a lot of people probably don't realize is if, with how optimized golf is to this day, with how, you know, how far these guys hit it and the skill they have with the spin, if you don't get conditions and you still are trying to make that score, a low score, a higher score, I guess, lower in relation to par, you have to totally manipulate a golf course to an unhealthy degree. And so that's something the RNA has always gotten credit for

is saying, yeah, you know, the wind didn't blow, scores got low, the wind blows and scores are over par. So I think that, yeah. I played the ocean course at Kiwa enough to know that it's not as easy as they made it look at the PG. Exactly. But the wind wasn't blowing, the weather was perfect. And so I get it, it happens.

I've never played Kiwa or the Ocean Club at that time when it feels like that. I mean, I've, you know, I watched the women play Karnusti this weekend. And I mean, it's only time I played Karnusti which is seven or eight times, it was full scale Karnaski where you're dealing with sideways rain and wind.

And hey, when that doesn't happen, you know, the golf courses courses a few, if not a lot of strokes different. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's our job or our mission to solve that. I think let's, let's give them the toughest test we think we can give them and golf. And after that, it's their show, not ours. You've done a lot for women's golf in the last decade in your role as commissioner. What's something that was, you know, out of your your purview as LPJ tour commissioner that might be maybe falling more under your umbrella

in your new role that's possibly on your agenda and your new job? Well, the thing that spikes to mind is the impact majors can have on rest of women's golf. Martin knows me well. I mean, I've been in Martin's year for years talking about the person that the AIG women's open. And Peter, who's the head of AIG,

as the first guy I call, when Martin shot me and wrote about their announcement of their person increased just to say thanks. I know that didn't happen in weeks. That happened in years. We've been in those meetings for a long time. And I've talked about the importance of what the major's in tennis meant

to women's compensation and equality in the game. Not every tennis event in men's and women's pays the same. In fact, 90% of them don't. But for do and for really, for really have changed the perception of how women probably feel about the game of tennis. So I feel that responsibility. I felt it before I got here.

I've said this many times that in my mind, the USGA always sort of led women's golf in the US women's open, not just being the oldest and most significant tournament, but pushed us in terms of golf courses and a role and quite frankly responsibility to continue to push the game for the women's side, not just in compensation, which is the easy one to talk about, but in all the other ways in which the women are treated if they make it to the absolute pinnacle of the sport. In the guys' game, you can talk about a lot of different majors, but for me, from before I was commissioner and while I was commissioner, the U.S. women's open was the pinnacle of our sport. If they could only win one major in their life, it was going to be this one. It's the one that doesn't have a program. It's the one that ends you, Alexis, said a keys when you walk off the plane. It's the one that started playing incredible venues before the rest did.

But I really believe the fact that they did forced others to do the same. So I think we've got to continue to be the, continue to be least one of, if not the one that pushes the envelope. I think in women's game, we're the one. And we better act like the one. The one that really matters, the one that they're talking about when they're seven, putting and some girls golf outing about this is the when the US women's open.

And so I believe we have responsibility to make sure the one continues to push the, you know, to push the water level for all the rest. Yeah, I think there's such a great opportunity for the women's game for venue, to push the, you know, to push the water level for all the rest. Yeah, I think there's such a such a great opportunity for the women's game for, for venue to visit venues, right? That maybe as we talk about distance, get, get kind of aged out of being able to host the biggest men's events yet it fit so perfectly to the profile and the shot shapes and the distance and the spin profiles of, of the LPGA, the top women players. So watching the play Olympic was

really exciting. Country Club at Charleston a couple years ago was just, that was peak golf for me watching that. That was, that was pretty ideal. So I'm, I'm curious how you view, how you view the importance of venues and what the perspective you have in your role currently versus, you know, how, somebody sit on the couch might think of a venue.

What, what you're looking for when it comes to, you know, the different playing profiles, top men, top women, the amateurs, whatnot. I'm not sure exactly what my question is there other than kind of what are the future plans for venues and what do they look like? Yeah, it's funny. We announced this long-term partnership with Oakmont, Marion, and the State of Pennsylvania. I got a bunch of emails from my friends about, you know, US opens and amateurs at those two. And I would tune back to it. I'm glad you're excited, but my guess is there's million more women going Marion. A couple of times, US open, you know, open, because those are those are venues that haven't

been a given on the women's side. What I would tell you about venues is, you know, I've spent enough time around athletes at the at the professional golf level to know that they not just they don't just want to win a US amateur or women's amateur or US open, women's open, but it matters to them where they win it. I mean, that's part of the allure of making it to the absolute best. So, you know, well, I remember when the USGA announced that we were going to play a US women's open at Pebble Beach. It came at a day, I think it was like

I got a Tuesday and I was in Texas and I walked out to the putting green and everybody was talking. I remember Kari Webb goes seriously 2023. I got to play until 2023. Like, you know, it changed the way people even thought about winding down their career because because he's not I'm not going to miss pebble. If I can get into pebble, I'm going to pebble. That's, I think that's important to the game. I don't think I don't think fans realize how much the athletes get excited about these venues too. I mean, there's certain venues if you say to a, you know, to a male or a female professional golfer, Chinacock, Wingfoot, Oakmont, in their mind, those are ultimate tests of the game.

And they all would say, we could probably play an open there tomorrow. And they're probably right. These courses are hard by their very nature. They're impressive by their very nature. And whether you shoot 79 or 69, you know you've been tested. And so I do feel some responsibility to make sure that the USDA continues to kind of showcase some other venues around the US and kind of opens the doors for some other venues.

But at the same time, at my core, what I believe is where you win your USGH championships matter and picking places that can deliver on those big moments. I mean one thing that's clear traveling around the country this summer and going to all of our different championships, not just the big ones but the ones that maybe are less televised to talk about. These are the greatest golf moments of their life and I can't tell me people would look at me and say I got to tell you you Mike, my whole life, I've tried to get into this event. I tried to qualify for such and such seven times. I've, you know, when I was 22 is the first time I tried to. These are,

these are their dreams. I've said this inside the building. When you're holding somebody's dream, you're holding a pretty significant responsibility. So, you know, it's our job to make sure that dream fits the reality when they walk onto that venue for the first time. That means where you play matters and that means our choices are our choices of where are certainly as important as what the trophy looks like, what the TV profile, what the person is. I mean, the where is an important part of the mix?

Well, I can personally attest on the lower amateur level that, yes, the venues that get chosen for that dictate how badly I want to qualify for them or how hard I'm going to try or pursue that goal so I can sympathize with that. We'll get you out of here on this. What's a perk of the USDA job that you maybe you didn't quite realize you might have? Well, I mean, I was given a website and told to design my Lexus. That was a pretty solid perk. I mean, I really started designing, I looked out of my system, and I said, is there a price limit I should standard? Because now I'm starting to feel kind of greedy, and which I did, but maybe I didn't.

Another perk is probably on my first week, I got, I don't know, five or six welcome to our club memberships, which is all clubs that I don't think would have even let me in if I'd gone through the normal process before I became the head of the USGA. I think the best part is if you're a guy that loves the game. I mean, as you and I've talked, I may not be an insider, but I don't know that you'll meet somebody who loves golf, uh, more than Mike Wanners, plenty of people who like it as much, but, um, but this game matters to me. It matters that my kids care about. It matters that my parents introduced me to it.

It's personal to me. It's been personal since the day I left for acting and I'm able to pursue a job in sports. I spend my time around people that really have that same love of the game. I mean, the love that's almost abnormal. It's so abnormal that when you tell your wife you're going to take 2021 off, and the one thing you need is a break from golf and you got to stop traveling. I just need to get

away from it all. And somebody calls you on a Tuesday night and by two Tuesdays later, you just took a job with the United States Golf Association. That that's an abnormal love of the game. And I'm surrounded by that every day, both inside the building and now even even walking down a you know, down a corridor of an airport with masks on. When somebody comes over to you and says, hey, you're that guy from the USGA, right? And they start telling you the story about when they were eight and they're, you know, the grandfather first put a club in their hand. It's, it's pretty cool. Like, I don't know one other sport that's like the, to me, when I was in the hockey business, Canadians talk about hockey, the way Americans talk about golf. And you know,

it's part of the culture, it's part of your growing up experience. It molded you in terms of who you are. Those stories happen for me 10, 15 times a day. So I kind of feel like, I just kind of feel like I'm home. And it took me a while to feel at home at the LPGA. For a lot of reasons. I didn't know anything about that business. 90% of every meeting was women.

So I was trying to make sure that I wasn't a candidate, just like the stupid guy in the room. I was surrounded by athletes that were much more talented than me and whatever. I mean, every LPJ athlete could have been an Ulta athlete in three other sports. So I just try not to embarrass myself at most programs. And but I got to a point where I was pretty comfortable.

The USGF felt like I got comfortable much quicker for whatever reason, but mostly just because I'm surrounded by a bunch of people that are just as lunatic, crazy this game as I am and and feel a need to to give back. I mean, for a game that's meant this much to me, I feel like the least I can do is spend some of my life working, working to make sure it's it's this cool for my kids kids and their kids and not just their boys, but their girls and, you know, for people all over the world. I feel like, I feel like we owe that to them. Well, we'll get you out of here on that. Thanks so much for your time, Mike, and all of your contributions to this podcast over the years. But I must say, I reserve the right to still be critical of you

despite your friendliness towards our podcast and your new role at the USGA. Just wanted to disclose that as we wrap up here. But thanks a ton for your time and join us and looking forward to doing this again in the future. I reserve the right to be critical of you, Chris, but thanks for coming. Cheers, thanks, Mike.

Give it a big blow up, Mike. Be the right club today. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most.