No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 475: Luke Donald

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

Ahead of this week's BMW PGA Championship, Luke Donald joins the pod to discus the event, his ascension to becoming the top ranked player in the world, his style of game and his keys to achieving success on tour, plus a preview of his upcoming role as an assistant captain on the European Ryder Cup team.    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes! That is better than most. That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Lang-A podcast. Sully here, got an interview coming here with Luke Donald ahead of this week's BMW PGA Championship. He is a two-time winner of that event. We chatted with him about the golf course, the tournament, what makes it special, and of

course, I'd turn things pretty quickly to Ryder Cup, and we talk a lot about his career, not only in the Ryder Cup, but just how he got to know World Number One, some really interesting insights there. What the role of a vice captain is, assistant captain, whatever you want to call it, he will be one of those coming up.

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Very excited for that, of course. So without any further delay, let's get to Luke Donald. All right. So for golf fans in the US, at least me personally, I've always had trouble placing the BMW PGA. What is this tournament to you? Why is it special? And don't just say because you've won it twice. Well, that always helps. People always ask me, well, what courses your favorite courses to play? And I always my first cheeky me, well, what courses are your favorite courses to play? And I always, my first cheeky answer is always, well, anywhere I've won. Yeah, I mean, the BMW is equivalent, you know,

to the European tours equivalent of the players championship, I'd say, you know, it's kind of their flagship event. They get a very strong field at the headquarters of the European tour. It even attracts, you know, a few US tour players now. And again, obviously this year, clashing up against the tour championship, it will not really get that many strong US players, but you know, it's our biggest event outside of the majors for the European tour. So everyone kind of gears up for it. It's a nice purse. It's one of the Rolex series events that Rolex support. Yeah, the players kind of love everything about it. Great hospitality BMW do a great job on a course that has quite a lot of history.

We used to play the the world match play there back in the day. It's changed a few times over the last 10 15 years, but a good challenging Harry kind of cult golf course. And, yeah, it's always a fun week. Yeah, I would say that covers it there. That's a lot of things in the, in the, in the, yes, I can show my aunt. No, that's great. That, that, that's about four of my questions I was going to ask. But, you know, we all, every golfer has courses they like for one

reason or another, usually just because it fits our playing style or, you know, everyone I hear the phrase fits my eye a lot, but I want to dig in like at the absolute highest level, what takes a golf course from like, hey, you know, this is pretty good for me to like, no, seriously, this is a great golf course. I can win on this course and this is just, you know, where, you know, the best, one of the best ones that I would want to compete on. Why is Wentworth one of those for you and what is it at the highest level that really separates out those courses? Well, I'm not one of the longer hitters.

I'm certainly, you know, I'm kind of average to maybe a little bit under average when it comes to distance off the tee. But Wentworth is a course where it doesn't really favor one type of player. There's a few holes that you're hitting ions off the tee for position, takes driver out of your hands on certain holes. The greens, especially since the last redo, are kind of sectioned off, so you have to be very precise with your ion play into these greens. The bunkering used to be extremely deep. When I won both my BMWs in 11 and 12. The bunkering was extremely deep, so it really,

if you got into them, you had to have good technique to be able to get out properly and hit it close. And I think, you know, at the height of when I was playing a number one in the world, it was a place where I felt like I had an advantage because I'm a good short game. So it's a little bit more of a positional golf course, you don't just bomb driver out everywhere. There are some long holes for sure out there, but there's a lot of holes where it's just kind of put it in the right place, position it, and kind of attack the flags with some shortage ions. So yeah, it just feels like a golf course where, you know, I'm not getting totally kind of lost amongst the big hitters, which happens a lot these days. So yeah, I enjoyed it and I've obviously had had a lot of success around that place. So yeah, seems to fit me.

Hello, yeah, I it was it was safe to assume that distance will come up at some course in this podcast, but I want to talk about the European tour and the development of this tour and the strategic alliance between the PGA tour, the overall direction of where you see things trending as somebody that has played both tours and famously won the money list in 2011 on both tours in the same year. Is this something that you kind of wish was, you know, in the works and in motion earlier in your career? Cause it seems like it's pretty well designed for,

I'm still struggling to see how it's all gonna play out or I can't quite fully vision, envision how it's gonna play out. But what are your thoughts so far on the strategic alliance and the future of the European tour? Well, I think it's a good thing in the end for what's in the last year and a half, two years COVID I think has kind of sped that process up. And also the emergence of the Premier Goldflake, the US tour kind of saw that as a little bit of a threat. And this was a

great way to kind of kind of nip that in the bud. So to speak, really putting the lines together with the European tour, with the European tour and the US tour were kind of more on friendly terms and not competing against each other, which kind of was the fact, the last, you know, since I've been a professional really, they kind of butted heads a little bit. You have to get a lot of releases to go play in Europe and vice versa. There was a little bit of competition there.

Obviously, the US Tour has always been the strongest tour in the place where, if you're one of the best players in the world, you want to go play. You want to play against the best players. But European tours has been great to me. I've loved being apart of both tours off of different things to have that sense of being able to travel, see different parts of the world, which is a European tour,

it's not a European tour, it's a world tour. I mean, we play all over the world. I think traveling to different places and seeing different golf courses, different grasses. You know, that's all good for your game in general. And to be able to have played both tours was again good for my game and good for my career. Well, also, as a huge, huge fan of Lynx Golf, it makes me optimistic that, you know, with the Scottish Open becoming a coast-sanctioned event now and, you know, potential, I don't fully understand what the development is with the the Scottish open becoming a co-sanctioned event now and, you know, potential.

I don't fully understand what the development is with the Irish open, but I do know that, you know, what some of the money that was used from the purchase of European tour productions or the steak that the tour took and that, that's getting funneled to the Irish open. And it feels like we are lined up for some potential, a potential link swing if we end up at the right golf courses for those events with the best players on it I always think it's such a it's like golf fans are getting robbed only seeing the top top players in the game get together One time per year on links golf courses. Do you foresee that being an issue? I know there's a lot of infrastructure, you know factors that go into the golf courses that get chosen for those for those events

But do you see it? Do you do you think that should be a priority in professional golf? Well, I think it's great for players development to experience lots of different courses, Parkland, Lynx, we've got some great Heastland courses around the London area that could definitely host some great tournaments, went with this sort of in that category.

But yeah, I think with the Scottish Open being a co-sanction event, you're already starting to link events together on link-scalve courses where you're going to see more Americans coming over. I think Ricky Fowler and some of those guys have already come over for the Scottish in the past, but you know, having a little bit of seeing it that accounts on both tools, that's going to only encourage more and more of the top Americans to come over. So that's a great thing for the European tour. Yeah, I'm not sure where Ireland fits.

Again, I don't know the ins and outs of everything going on, but I've just kind of read the rough stuff like you have. But yeah, I think again, the more, we've had world gold tournaments that are mostly being played in the US. Exactly. And it would be kind of nice to see the US players, you know, being encouraged a little bit to travel just a little bit more work, because they're never

going to travel a lot, because they have so much in the US and the US tour gives them some great opportunities. You know, 44, 45 events a year they can play and on great courses with great purses. So they don't need to travel, but, you know, I think just getting them out once or twice a year, experiencing different places, more links golf, that's going to be great for the fans and great for the game.

I would imagine that it's the flight, which you would probably laugh at as some of this played worldwide schedule for many years, but it's a lot for people to uproot their families and whatnot for extended periods of time in the summer when they have kids and what not, but if it's one trip and you're getting to knock out, you're getting FedEx Cup points for it still, which is an important thing as you get towards the end of that year. And you get to get to come over to just a place steeped in golf history, I think that's just a tremendous thing for the game. I'm proud of myself. I made it about 10 minutes before asking you about Ryder Cup We are of course approaching the Wishing Straits 2020 Ryder Cup. It's still being called But I'm gonna start with a question that you're probably not expecting and I haven't really chatted about this with somebody at your level

But do you think it's time that we at least start exploring But do you think it's time that we at least start exploring the option that an independent body is in charge of course set up rather than the home team? Yeah, that's a good question. This, you know, the European tour, it's no secret. The European tour and we have the right to cup in Europe. We set it up a certain way and the US when they have it at their home, they set it up a certain way. And it definitely gives a big, they set it up in a way to favor their team. Yeah, I mean, you certainly could. I don't know.

Does that happen in the presence cup too? The PGA tour is in charge of the setup, it's to my understanding in both of those. So where I'm going? Where they get it both ways. Yeah, where I'm going with that is I felt like for better, for worse, the US team learned some from the set up at Medina in terms of, you know, that maybe they didn't set up the the final round. They set it up for a potential comeback almost by accident by putting some of the

pins in some places. So when they had a lead in 2016, those pins were smack dab in the middle of the green for singles. And I don't think I fully understand why that matters in match. Both, you know, you kind of give it to, you know, both teams got to play it. I'm wondering if you could kind of explain maybe why that would have had an impact and how that affects players the highest level. What the setup of Medina? Medina. Yeah, verse 16 or, you know, why certain styles give advantage to different teams? So Medina, obviously, we were 10, 10, 6 down and some of the pins coming in were quite difficult put hole locations, 17, you know, a back right pin, probably the trickiest pin on 17, 18. We saw how, if

you got above the hole, how quick that part was, I mean we're lucky Martin tried to two part, tried to lag it up there and and and Kima that is and hit it six-seventh-feet by. So it was Americans I think when you're protecting a lead you know and you have tough pin positions you're going to play a little bit more safe. We had nothing to lose and so we kind of had that advantage of being a bit more aggressive, played into our hands for sure. The Pichet of America actually that week was a little bit funny. Kerry Hague is it that sets up the course, you know, he adamantly told us that the US didn't know where the whole location is. We're going to be for the week. And then obviously when we made our comeback and Davis love was doing his press conference, he said,

we made a mistake with the whole. So, yeah, he kind of put Kerry in an awkward position. Yeah, kind of backfired on them, I guess. So they obviously learnt that lesson because in 16 at Hazel team, right, I remember the Europeans, I wasn't part of that one, but I remember the Europeans complained that every pin location was in the middle of the green. So you were either both making birdie or both making safe paths and it was hard to kind of cut into leads a little bit and they struggled to make a comeback. So obviously the US figured that one out and

made the pin locations a lot easier. So yeah, I mean it wouldn't be a bad idea. I don't think the Europeans would mind too much. Obviously Paris though we set the course up very difficult. You know we made it quite narrow with lots of rough. If you wanted to hit driver, you better have hit it pretty straight. We did pretty well that week. So yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's just the home advantage that gives you you can set up the way you want. Which made me a little bit of surprising that they chose whistling straights because that's not a course you can really manipulate that much. Well, I think they can make it long and it's a course that is really driver accuracy not being a huge priority and driving distance is a huge priority and

you know there's the it's wide enough that you know I don't think there's going to be two me guys in the Fescue I don't think they're going to do too much Fescue with it. I mean, Medina, the rough was real short. No, they wouldn't have any rough. Yeah. Yeah. So it won't be overly manipulated, but I do think, and where I'm going with that is it just feels like I didn't 18 was not close.

You know, 16 was not very close. 14 was not an overly manipulated setup. I wouldn't say, but it was not close. And 12 was one of the closer to neutral setups. And it gave us one the great rider cups and I just I wonder if you know if it keeps going extreme and keep trying to one up each other, then I kind of worry about this thing just the home field advantage becoming becoming too big, but I don't know. It was just curious your thoughts on that and I'm gonna I'm gonna try to get the most out of you in the Ryder Cup without asking you to give too much away of specific strategic moves. Maybe you guys have planned, but what's a role of an assistant captain? I feel like that role can maybe go underappreciated in the general public.

How would you describe that role and how you'll be employing that in the upcoming Ryder Cup and how that worked out for you in 18? Yeah, 18 was my first time as a vice captain. Obviously, I'm a vice captain this year again at Whistling, but it's it's been a good kind of eye opener into what really does go on behind the scenes. There's quite a lot more that goes into it. for so far and probably another one will be named I think in the next couple weeks or just before. It's hard to name them all at once because some players are kind of on the fringe that might still play well enough to get in if they don't and they'll probably want to be a part of the rider cup and be a vice captain. So he has four or five, five, we were five last year, two years ago, or three years ago, I guess, now in France and you'll have five

again. And it's quite a lot going on for the captain, you know, there's a lot going on. So we have to kind of take away some of that, you know, everything that's going on, take some of the pressure off the captain, let him really be concentrate on what he needs to concentrate on. But we're really in the behind scenes talking to players, we're talking to them about, you know, potential pairings, who they like, who they don't want to play with. We're talking with psychologists in terms of how players match up psychologically. We're going into stats, deeply figuring out, does this player play well with this guy? Is he more suited to forsems? We're looking at the course, obviously, they're going to play. How many long irons are we going to hit into these holes?

How many short irons? Who are the best of that? How many good, which holes if someone tees off the one? Is he going to do most of the putting? There's just lots of little things that go into it. And we all know that sometimes just the little things that build up over time that can make a difference. And so we're just trying to tick all the boxes and just give our players the kind of best chance, cumulative effort between Vice Captains and our Captain Paddy. Paddy Harrington. So yeah, there's more that goes into it than you think.

And it's kind of a fun process, just trying to fit all the pieces together. And there's definitely going to be things that, even though Paddy has a very active mind, there's going to be things he's going to miss and that we're going to pick up the slack. And I think that's what we're there for. And to get in T and sandwiches and anything that they want

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you can use code no laying up 20 to get $20 off your purchase of $100 and more. Just visit walkertrawlies.com if you want to walk the course in style and bring your game to a new level. Let's get back to Luke Dunnell. Has that process evolved from when you were, you played your first Ryder Cup in 2004? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, well, how has that process evolved and maybe in the same line of questioning, how did you come up with your four some partners back then or how did captains come up with it then compared to how it's done now? Again, as a player, I really wasn't really, I didn't really have any knowledge about what was going on behind the scenes.

There was a little bit of talk from the captain to me, leading up to it. 2004, I was a pick from Bernard Langer, but I was a little bit kind of wet behind the years. It was very new for me. I was just going there to try and hopefully play good golf and kind of asked a little bit like who would you like to play with anyone you know want to play with. That was about the total of it all really. I was just there to play golf and try and

play my best. So again, the players aren't caught up too much. You know, someone like a westward or a Sergio guys have been in many, many rider cups. You know, someone like a westward or a Sergio guys that have been in many, many rider cups, you know, they'll know kind of the ins and outs and we'll maybe have a little bit more conversation with device captains and captains about certain things. But you know, most of the players, especially the rookies there, you know, they're gonna go in a little bit with blinkers on

and just try and we just want them to go there and play good golf. So we're not trying to bombard them with a lot of stuff, but certainly over the time, I think, a lot has progressed in terms of statistics, what we know, what we can track, what we see. I think that the mental side is probably something that we haven't done probably since 12 or 14 or 16,

even that probably would have come into play a little bit more. So, you know, every year it seems like every rider cup, there seems to be, you know, more cogs to the world, so given us a little bit more info. And again, sometimes that info is useful and sometimes it's not, and in the end, we will go a lot with our gut instincts and listen to the players and follow that rather than just go on pure numbers or you know this guy shouldn't be playing with this guy because you know their personalities don't quite match because sometimes that that's just not the case is it I mean so you just have to go through all these little things and then give you a clue and then you use it to your best and kind of make up the rest from there.

So I'm very into the numbers and the stats and the analytics and that stuff. And I think people can interpret that to say like that. I just think you should print off the numbers and pair, you know, just that's the only factor. But it's a huge piece of the puzzle, right? But it is just a piece in the puzzle of managing, you know, the emotions to come if you're paired with this guy, to get you to route up, what not. But I'm curious for four sums, or maybe even four ball, do you want a player, you know, thinking back to you when you were playing in the Rattacop, did you want a partner with

a similar playing profile, a different playing profile? Did it matter between those two formats? I'm just, I'm curious to know the answer to that. I mean, I only personally speak, you know, I've paired up very well with Sergio. One because we were pretty close. We're good friends. So we think there was an ease there when we played together. There was no expectation of letting the other down, but we had quite different games. So for us, different was really a benefit. You know, he was a drove a little bit longer, great eye and play, but yeah, I don't know. I mean,

I was kind of steady. Good putter, probably, you know, if one side favored, you know, the putting that, that was probably how we would figure out who would be on odds or evens, but, you know, I feel like our games were not really that similar, but we just geled very well together. If I had bad shot, he put his arm around me and encouraged me. And I kind of, I think had enough, you know, I knew him well enough from our friendships to say the right things, to get him motivated too. So, you know, we played five foresens and only lost one with a good, good run out there. What, I'm not quite sure how to ask this question. I'm going to use examples from 2014, which is I know a team you were not a part of.

But we had a great interview with Paul McGinley around this time last year where he just chatted about all the things that went into managing the egos of a team and how he had to make some hard decisions and how he was influenced by how Sam Torrance managed him at the 2002 Ryder Cup and that lineage of Cappdance and what he learned in that in terms of, here's the plan, you're going to play with this guy, I need you to play with this guy. And we're going to do this versus on the US side. Hunter Mayhan also told us a story of how he found out mid day he was going

to be playing in afternoon. I think for some session with Jim Furik and then prepared for it, which seems like two very different ways of approaching a plan. But I want to know like, especially when it comes to your roles in assistant captain, how tied down to a plan of who's going to play? Are you, you know, from the start of the week, do you set out like, Hey, for each of the sessions, here's what we're going to do, or there are a couple like, all right, we may flex this one into this to see how people are planning. And that's why you're out there watching the matches to communicate that to the captain.

I'm wondering what you could tell us about about that process for how it's decided who's going to play, because some of those decisions get made in a little bit of a pinch, right? Well, there's still play being made on the golf course. You got to make a decision for who's going out in the afternoon. Yeah, I mean, without giving away too much,

I think we will. Oh, come on. We will have a pretty good idea at the beginning of the week, probably who's gonna play the first day and the kind of matchups. And then from there, we see how they perform under pressure, how they perform in together, how the game is stacking up under pressure, and then we will adjust accordingly for the second day. I think you can have a pretty good plan for that first Thursday. I think Friday is four sums in the morning and four balls in the afternoon.

And that will be pretty much, we'll pretty much know what that is by Tuesday or Wednesday I'm guessing, Thursday by the latest. And we'll be, week or two weeks before that will be starting to give the guys a kind of a feel. This is what we're thinking getting used to them, you know, if they're playing at tournament, I know in the past we've tried to pair people together just to get them a little bit more comfortable in regular tournaments before just so they again create a little bit more chat, a little bit more comfort around each other.

You know, again that can go all out the window by the time, you know, Thursday evening, Friday rolls around and you have to make those perms for Saturday. So again, Saturday is one where you'll have just, hopefully you don't have to adjust too much and you can go with some good perms of performance on Friday, but that's I'm guessing how things will go. But you just never know, golf is, it's fickle and things can change. But we're already starting to kind of figure out pairings. Obviously the team isn't quite set yet, but we have a good idea, roughly who's going to be on that team. So, yeah, we're making big strides in terms of pairings

and the kind of how we're going to attack it. From a American's fans perspective, I've always felt this, when it comes time to, no matter who the favorite is, what team, what guys are being rolled out on each team, it felt like Europeans were always there to thrive and the Americans were there not to lose. And I felt like they played with a pressure

that was just different and you guys always look like, maybe it's just because you're winning, but you look like you were having fun with it embracing the pressure and it elevated your play where it was the opposite on the American side. I'm wondering if that is accurate to how you felt, how you feel competing in the Ryder Cup and what you would attribute that to if so. I pretty much agree with you. I think Americans are always favorites on paper. I mean, they always

have field a stronger team. World rankings wise, they outtrump us pretty handily most years on the right of cup and that's why we we feel like we're underdogs most of the time. You know, and I think that can, that was expectations on the on the US soldiers can can weigh on them. Obviously the record in Europe versus US since going back to the mid 80s is very much in favor of Europe and I just feel like they feel like they should be winning. They should be winning more that that record should be more equal or more to their side and that expectation and pressure again can make you feel like you're playing not to lose right and that's not a great way to approach anything in life, whether it's goal for what not. So, again, we kind of go in there feeling like underdogs, but also

loving the pressure of a rider cup and knowing that if we come together as a team, we can be victorious because we've shown that in the past. So we have a great record on our side and we can just kind of play a little bit freer maybe than the US at times. A lot's been made out of some of the relationships between a lot of players on the US side. And while not asking you to comment directly on those, there's a tweet going around from Jamie Weir, who is saying, so this guy hates this guy.

This guy hates this guy. My question in relation to this is how much of an effect can that the personal relationships within the locker room really have? I hear a lot of platitudes about team chemistry, from pundits, and whatnot. But I don't hear a ton of it from players, and I'm just curious on your perspective there on what you guys

used to competing against each other for so much of your careers coming together. Maybe there may be some personal differences. How much of an impact that can actually have on a team? Oh, I mean, again, that's something you kind of want to know going going into it is a someone on our team that doesn't particularly get along with someone else. I remember actually going back to 14 and McGinley, Victor Dupeson was on that team if I'm mistaken. You know, kind of an odd character that really kept to himself. And McGinley thought that again, I wasn't part of this, but this is a story I heard. McGinley thought that the best way to get the most out of Victor was to have him amongst his two or three friends

that he used to hang out with all the time. In a different room, he wasn't really even with the team a lot of the time, he was in the team room, but he had his own room too, where he could hang out with his friends, play video games, wherever made him comfortable, and that's what he did. And, you know, I think, you know, there's instances like that where you have certain characters that are just, you know, that's how they are. And you kind of need to deal with them again. It's dealing with different personalities and egos in the correct way. So knowing all that stuff beforehand, I think, is important. And that's why you're going to have good open communication with the players. If there's any issues, then you try and get round them before the week starts and

the, you know, put those, those issues aside. What's it like playing against Tiger Woods in a Ryder Cup? Well, playing with Tiger is always an experience. I mean, he brings the biggest crowds, the biggest energy, you know, Ryder Cup, non-Ryder Cup majors, anything. I mean, he's the coach, isn't he? He's, you feel a little bit more comfortable in a Ryder Cup just because you know his record. That wasn't as good for some reason. I'm not sure why, but it's always fun to play with Tiger because, you know, he's got this all business outlook. He'd never really

chatted too much. It was all focused on how he could get the most out of his game, how he could be as good a partner as he could. He was just very, very steely eyed and determined and you can just see how he performed in his career because of that attitude, that mental fortitude. Obviously having a partner sometimes wasn't the best thing for him, but managed to win a few games off him, which didn't get much, I didn't get the upper hand much outside of Ryder Cups, with an aura around him that Tiger brings. And it's not easy to play against. It's a lot of people supporting him too, behind crowd and fans and everyone.

So it's a little bit more pressure, a little bit more anxiety, but you got to deal with that. Well, I do think I finally emptied my chamber of rider cup questions and a lot I want to talk to you about your career in general and I hate asking such a broad question of, you know, how did you get to world number one? But if we're looking at the way the game has evolved over the last 20 years or so, I want to unpack Essentially how you got there if I look at your analytics over the last 20 years or so. I want to unpack essentially how you got there. If I look at your analytics over the years, it's very interesting.

You were essentially a neutral driver of the ball and assuming you're driving accuracy, maybe netting out some distance that you were potentially losing to the field. But you hit the heck out of your irons and you were basically the best putter in the world. And when you spell that out, it doesn't sound like a very unconventional route to number one. But why does that feel so dated now? Well, it's something I'm extremely proud of. And, you know, who knows, I might be kind of one of the last, so-called medium short hitters to get to number one. You know, a lot

of people thought it would, it wasn't really possible even back in 2010, 11. And I remember Nick Price a few years before I got to number one, said he, you know, it's just shame where the game is going. He got great players like Luke Donnell, who's, you know, I was probably a similar style player to how he played the game. And he admired that, said, you know,

someone like him could never get to number one in the world. And obviously I did it. And that's probably the proudest moment of my golf and career, the best thing I've ever done in the game. But, yeah, I mean, statistically, I worked a lot with Mark Brody before he was even really known too much in that Stroke's game category. And we knew that you had to average it to gain two strokes per day on the field on average throughout the year to get to number one. There were different ways to do it. The easiest way

is to hit the bullfight in a price and gains about 1.2 of that too through its driving. You could never do that with putting. I think the most I ever gained on putting was about 0.8, and that was putting the lights out. I mean, I think I was number one in the world on Stroke's game for three years in a row, and the next two years I was third out of the third in Stroke's game putting. So the five years I was pretty much

at the top of the game in putting. And I did it a lot through putting my wedge play and pretty good eye and see my driving as you said was I wasn't really late losing strokes game though was kind of middle of the field I had decent accuracy but not great length. zero, which was about what I thought was good for me. But I gained the rest, the two strokes through great iron play and amazing wedge short game and amazing pudding. So it's not the easiest way to do it, but that was the way that I had to do it. Is that is that something that is just really hard to sustain? Like I can't imagine, you almost starting from behind, right? On almost't imagine, you almost starting from behind, on almost every hole you're starting behind the guys that have the distance advantage.

You have something you have to overcome day in, day out. Is that something that is mentally taxing in any way or just something that is not projectable and sustainable for more years and you're able to do it? And I say that in terms of, you did it for a long, long period of time. This was not a flash in the pan in any way, but you know, it just seems like something that I look at even, you know, some of the top players today that are not great, great drivers of the golf ball. I just

look at it and wonder how long you can, you know, put it almost perfect and hit iron. It's almost perfect, you know, and then I'm just curious your perspective on that. Yeah, I mean at the time it seemed pretty easy. Yeah. It was kind of in place and seemed great, but no, it's a little bit difficult. You know, certainly my 13, 14, I started to not hit the ball as well and I was really getting frustrated with my swing. I even changed coach. I wasn't driving it nearly as well as I was really getting frustrated with my swing. I even changed coach. I wasn't driving it nearly as well as I needed to. And then I felt like I was even putting more

pressure on my short game because I was playing defense after my T-shirt. I'm really having to rely on my short game and putting too much. And know again if you keep putting pressure on it and you're having to do it for powers rather than birdies it's going to wear down and wear on you. It's not an easy way to keep up. Certainly the driving it far thing is something if you can do that. You kind of always have that. Driving far and straight is another thing that is what amazes me about Bryson. I I mean, Fari hits it, he's extremely straight too, really considering how much club speed and ball speed he's getting out of it. But yeah, for me, I wasn't hitting it good enough off the tee where I could be a bit more play offense and you know then I'm having a lot

more opportunities for birdies rather than trying to save paths from awkward positions around the greens and that put in constant pressure on you does does weigh you down a little bit. Very few guys in history obviously have been able to maintain number one in the world for extended period of time and you did believe, for 56 weeks, something along those lines. Why is that? Why is it hard to maintain number one, what's it like playing under that guys?

I mean, you train your whole life to improve, improve, improve. Does the mindset change at all when you get to the top? Do you, do you, when do you, when do you, how do you balance like, all right, I need to work on this with like, hey, there's actually no one in the world that's better than me at this right now. I guess there's a little bit of a mental toughness

about that, that you aimed, every goal for a spire is to be the best in the world. Once you get there, there's a little bit of, okay, what now? Kind of feeling. But that wasn't really the case for me. Everything seemed to be clicking. I felt good about my swing. I obviously felt invincible from 125 yards and in, I think, 2011, I ranked second in Parfive scoring and, you know, 140th in driving distance. So, whatever I did, it didn't matter how far I hit it. I really got away from that caring about how far I hit it,

just having that knowledge that I could get up and down, I could make cuts when I needed to. My wedge play, I was gonna hit it within 10 feet from 130 yards and you know, just all those kind of things you know gave me a lot of confidence a lot momentum and Yeah, I was working with Dave all read to the time who helped me come a little bit more ruthless a little bit more like you know Have a little bit more of a chip on my shoulder You know, I'm this guy that shouldn't be number one in the world and I was there and

I just kind of have that doggy style about me and that doggy attitude and think that helped to, and that kind of prolonged my time at number one in the world. So, yeah, those, those all factors kind of kind of helped. Well, what does it, does it work against you when your game maybe starts to decline, right? If we're talking about, if we're looking at your career on an arc and number one, obviously being the 100% mark, when you're on your way up to, and you're at that 75% mark, I imagine it's, you know, a strengthening feeling, it's inspiring feeling. But if you're on the other side of that arc, saying that 75% arc, but past your best golf played,

what's that like? Right? I mean, there's probably a time in your life where a T8 finish felt really good. And then on the other side of it, a T8 finish didn't feel nearly as good. How do you balance that kind of feeling of like, hey, man, I was number one.

And like right now, I'm not, how do I get that back? Do you, is it tough to kind of keep the perspective of what good golf is when you reach that high level? Well, I think it's easier if you've been there before. So you know how to do it, how to get there, what it's like, what, what the experience was. That's always an advantage in my corner. You know, having people who've never got to the top, don't really know what it's like. It's hard for them to imagine that.

But yeah, golf is just so weird every week you just feel like you have an opportunity to do well and be good. You kind of know inside yourself how you're playing, how you're feeling, and if you're going to have a decent week or not most time, sometimes that's not the case. Sometimes you can practice and choose them when they're in hit or awful and then suddenly Thursday comes and something clicks and the juices get flowing and you have a great week. But you tend to usually kind of feel how you're playing and if it's going to be a good week or not. But you know, saying that each week, I don't know, I just feel like I don't feel like I'm 43. I still feel like that I'm young enough to play well enough and you know if I'm on my game I'm going to have a chance to win.

So it hasn't really panned out that way and golf will definitely kick you in the teeth a lot, but I do feel like I'm making progress and I love golf for say that, but I really honestly do feel like I'm making progress and that there's still some good years in me. And there's no reason why I can't climb back up the World Ranking, it's not saying I'll get to number one, but get back into the top 50, get back into playing majors, get back into having a chance to maybe play another Ryder Cup. I really believe that that is still a possibility. That answers one of my questions, I think, which is, or maybe it doesn't. I'll

ask it still, what's your relationship like with the game of golf these days? You know, if you do it for this many years, travel this many miles, like, and it sounds, it seems reasonable to me to have someone kind of, you know, have their love for the game decrease, but it doesn't sound like it based on what you just said. Well, the times where it beats you up and you feel a little bit dejected and demoted and again golf can really kick you in the teeth, but I'm in Rome right now. I'm playing the Italian Open this week and just finished playing a pro-am and I played with, they're all three of them with disabled. One was a blind guy. He was a 32 handicap.

You can see, at all, another guy had a prosthetic arm, and was an 18 handicap, and another guy had cancer of the spine, and literally had no feeling on the left side of his body, you know, struggled to walk, and he was a 16 handicap. And, you know, I think walk, and he was a 16-hadi-caper. And, you know, I think sometimes you have a group like that, and you see them enjoying the game, and, you know, they're not going to be scratch golfers, but, you know, it puts a little perspective. And I'm out here in Rome right now, having a chance to play in and telling open a lot of guys struggling

to, you know, these mini- mini tours have a tough time of it. Still got great opportunities in front of me. So, you know, there's a lot to be appreciative of. You know, take that stuff to heart that I'm very lucky, very blessed, and I've got great opportunities to still be out here competing and having a chance. Is there any point in time where you look back at and say,

you know what, at this point, I would do this differently. Career-wise, swing-wise, whatever you, you know what, at this point, I would do this differently. Career-wise, swing-wise, whatever you, you know, something maybe you changed along the way, something you didn't change along the way. Does anything stick out if I ask you that question? I really don't think that's a great way to kind of go through life. Sure.

Just kind of looking back and hindsight and stuff. You know, I made the decision at the time, the best decision that I wanted to, that I thought was going to give me the best chance. And a lot of great things have happened. You know, I've won 15, 16 times around the world, played on four righted cups. The list goes on, God's number one in the world. So there's a lot of good decisions

that led to some great things. So obviously, you can always look back and hindsight and go, maybe if I did this, things might have been a little bit better, but I don't really think that way. And again, if I didn't play another tournament again, I'd be pretty happy with what I achieved in the game again, going against the odds a little bit for someone who plays the game the way I play in this type of way the game is played nowadays.

Were you at your peak? How technical were you? And I'm asking us through the lens of we just had an interview with Harris English who talked about, you know, he came out on tour, played great golf for a long time but had no idea what made him great. And it took him kind of not necessarily bottoming out

but losing his game to get in touch with what actually he does in his swing that made him great. And I'm wondering, you know, how your evolution of technical thoughts or technical focus has evolved over your years? Yeah, I would say I was a bit more of a field player. Again, I didn't really study the game, the mechanics, biomechanics, all that kind of stuff. I got to Northwestern in 1997. I'd had a little bit of coaching through the England program. It was a very raw swing, very young swing. Pat Goss was the coach there. We became my coach pretty much up until last year.

And I just kind of listened to him. It wasn't very too technical. We certainly worked on certain things, tried to make my swing a little bit less young, create a little bit more power. When I came to college in 1997, I weighed 147 pounds. I probably carried the ball 250 with a driver. I had to get more flexible. I had to get a little bit stronger. By the time I left college, I was £165, you know, carrying it to $70, $275. So he helped me learn what made me great. He didn't overload me.

I certainly just listened to what he said. I tried to do it, but again, I didn't really have a big knowledge of how the golf swing worked. And I just trusted what he was telling me was the right things. And I think it made my mind very simple. I didn't get to bog down with technical stuff. And to be honest, sometimes 13, when I start changing coaches, I start to look into, you know, the swing and how it works and how does this teacher teach and what makes this do this and, you know, I probably had a lot more thoughts going on with my golf game the last six, seven years. I'm probably a little bit more of a field player. I was an art major. I think I used that

side of the brain a little bit more on the golf course. For me, being a little bit more of a field player. I was an art major. I think I used that that side of the brain a little bit more on the golf course. For me being a little bit less technical is probably, yeah, it's obviously looking at my results. Serve me the best. It's so hard to, you know, it's hard to channel, you know, when you play your best golf, any level, every player ever, there's so little thinking going on, right? And when you're not playing your best golf, you have to try to think your way out of it. And you always are trying to channel like, just shut your brain off, just swing it and be natural. And that balance just fascinates me, right? Of, you know, the absolute peak is going to come from a field state. Yet there's so much training and practice that has to go into

training your body to be ready to enter that field state under pressure. You can't really simulate and practice. And does any of what I'm saying make sense of that regard? How do you interpret that? I think I'm like every golfer that, yeah, maybe I felt like it was easier to use that subconscious artistic side, a little bit more that field side

and just let the body do it. But there's always times when you have, I don't think I've ever hit a shot without having some kind of thought of what I'm trying to accomplish. Might be something very small and I only think about it in the practice swing and then

when I'm over the ball, I just let it go, but I think most golfers will have something internal that they're queuing on to give them an external feel. The guys that have less thoughts, obviously, are usually the people that are the most successful I would say, the more you can ingrain that stuff in practice and then when it comes to torment and pressure, because your mind does go a little bit blank, you forget things when you're on that first tee of a first torment, you better have to rely on your subconscious and the practice you've done, otherwise, if you're starting to have, okay, I need to do this, this and this to hit this shot, then that's not going to end up very well.

So there is a little balance there, but yeah, in general, the guys that can let their subconscious just kind of dictate their shots. And I think that's always going to pay off for them. Well, a couple more. I'm probably keeping you from some pasta the in the very short term here, but pasta pizza. Yeah. Are you are you up or down money lifetime to Michael Jordan? Oh, I've got to be up.

Yeah. How do you handicap matches with him? I give him five aside. So 10 total. In the last year he's built his golf course in South Florida, the Grove, Grove 23, and you know he sort of built it a little bit around his game and where the shots fall and he gets quite a lot of shots like at the end of the front nine and quite a lot in the back nine and the last few holes. So he's tough to play out out there. The fairway's kind of squeezing a little bit where the pros are a lot a little bit longer.

So it's a tough golf course to beat him around there, but over the years, I think, I'm a pro, I should be beating him even with a handicapped system because that's my game. So he would beat me every time on a basketball court, even with giving me spotting me 18 points up to 21, I think. So I should have the upper hand. Are those bets settled in cash? Or do you have a tab running? I'm always curious how that goes.

Always cash. Yeah. I've never really tried to play for big money. I'm good friends with him. That's not my gig. Some guys are out there trying to win some cash, easy cash, and sometimes it backfires, and they lose a lot. But for me, it's, I might pay him, I use standard bets like $200 close out. It's not going to break the bank, but lately, I think he's feeling like he's getting the advantage.

So he wants to play for 500, close out, but so there's a little bit more right on it, and even 500 bucks, you know, it's your own money. You don't want to lose that money. So, you know, it's not a small amount, but it's not certainly going to break the bank. I've stopped asking, pros, the question, would you rather lose a $500 bet or miss a $10,000 up up that makes is a $10,000 difference in earnings and everyone's answer. I this the $500 bet. It's a totally different.

Oh, hey, listen, you own money. Oh, yeah, reaching into your wallet and I was going to grab your own money and hand it over. That's the worst. See, I was always picturing duffle bags when it came with Michael Jordan and if it's okay with you, I'm sure. The $10,000 you're putting for was never yours was never yours and that's true. That's true. Well, I'm going to let you get out of here. I will wish you luck in this in the Italian Open this week and BMW this this

podcast will be coming out during BMW week. I will not wish you luck as an assistant captain here in the upcoming Ryder Cup as a fan of the American team, but I really appreciate all of your insights into your career and the Ryder Cup process and whatnot and wish the best luck going forward and hope to do again sometime. Well, appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. You bet, cheers. Be the Ryder Club today. That is better than most.

How about him? That is better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most.