No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - NLU Podcast, Episode 486: Padraig Harrington & Chris DiMarco

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

We caught up with Padraig Harrington and Chris DiMarco ahead of the Constellation Furyk & Friends event in Jacksonville. Soly of course wears Padraig out on the Ryder Cup, clarifies a few things that have surfaced since the event concluded, talked about the future, how the US has copied the Europeans, the Tiger effect, and a lot more. And on the back half, Chris DiMarco joins to chat about his run in the mid-2000's, the 2005 Masters with Tiger, the 2004 PGA, injury struggles, the claw grip, and a lot more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Solid here. We are a day late this week because we were waiting out the arrival of Podjuk Harrington here in Jacksonville for the Constellation, Fiurik and Friends, Champions Tour event.

Been out there for the last couple of days, tracking down a few guys for some interviews. We're supposed to have about 20 minutes with Podreg, and up, of course, spending about 35. He is talkative as usual. We also spent some time with Chris Demarco. Again, had 20 minutes with him. He spent almost 40 minutes with us, telling stories. So we're just combining the two of those into the same episode here. We're going to play Podreg Harrington first, and then turn it over to Demarco. On the back half, you can guess kind of what we're going to talk about with both of those guys. But some great insights from both of them.

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You can use code NLU20 for 20% off your order at Original Payment from now up until October 31. Without any further delay, here's Patrick Harrington. So I overheard someone ask you a question I was planning to ask you today. It was out on the golf course. Somebody came up to you and asked you how you would rate your overall experience as a Ryder Cup captain. I think he was asking about the year, the month, the week leading up to it.

And I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about that for us. Yeah, you know, obviously you look back at it and it was a tough result, but I have no regrets. I wouldn't swap it. I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't give it up. We had an unbelievable week in the team room. I couldn't ask for more from my players, from the caddies, from the players' wives, from the players' family. Everybody in there was pulling in the same direction. We all believed going out Friday morning, we could win it, which is where you want to be, and we even believed going out Sunday that we could turn it over and win it still. So you can't ask for more than that, there was a great atmosphere, and nobody was lost in the team. There was nobody, you know, who got away from what the team was doing, which is really kind of a special experience in that sense.

And, you know, I was worried starting out when I talked to Cappansea that I wouldn't be able to do the job for everybody. You know, you get the Cappansea because you played the game, you did well in the game, but clearly golfers are individuals and we're pretty selfish at what we do. We're very one-dimensional focused on then all of a sudden you're presented with 12 people and their teams and you have to, you know, you have to be a captain to everybody. Not everybody thinks you like you, so you know, you've got to make sure you think like them. It's not about how you think things should be done, it's about, okay, what is each of these players need, what can I give to them, how can I get them to the golf course where they believe in themselves and believe in what this team can do. And I'm very comfortable, I managed to do that.

I certainly doubt myself at the start would that be something that I was able to give myself, but I'm comfortable looking back. No regrets, no other different results, but in the end of the day, as I said to the guys in the team, these are the best days of your life. And I would not give it up for anything, the experiences we had that week, and there's many experiences that we will live with us forever. I feel like I heard that more this past Ryder Cup than even even ones that were you guys have been very successful. You know, Shane Larry called it the best best week of his life. And the obviously the emotion we saw from Rory afterwards, we just, you know, it just seemed a little bit different. The camaraderie seemed almost even stronger than some of the events that you guys have won. Does that sound accurate? You know, I wouldn't want to compare it with anything else, you know, but the team really

bonded well. Rory didn't unbelievable job all the way through the year. He was a real leader. I think that's a tough burden, Rory. You know, he he he's pushed into that responsibility, but he did take it and did do a great job for me all year. Sergio was brilliant in the team room. Mae'n gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn gwybod yn g just excellent. But you know everybody as I said was pulling in the right direction during the week. They were they were all fantastic and I think coming over yeah I think more players gosh I think more of a mix with all the players

you know there wasn't there was no clicks in our in our in our thing and I know I know the US had their pods of things like that. We had a part of 12. Look, I would have done anything to win. And ultimately winning is the most important thing. But you know, I do feel that we did have a part of 12 if not a part of 17, 18 of us, if you include the vice captains of myself. And I think everybody walked away from that knowing more about the other players and who they are and we'll have a bond with those guys forever. Now clearly we lost, which you know, you pretty much, you know, as I said, it is all about winning, but since all we have in one, we will take some comfort in the fact that we really, really were a great team together.

You mentioned Sergio being a big impact there on the team room. I was thinking of, you know, back in the day, Tykron Phil played on a lot of teams together, and they didn't necessarily have the greatest relationship, but as they get later in life, it seems that their relationship is very different now. Even Sergio have not always had a great relationship. I'm not even sure I understand or know the genesis of that, but I'm curious if you could talk about the timeline of that and how it's evolved over the years. Yeah, you know, clearly we would have been very competitive against each other, both of

us in our peak of our careers. From both sides of us, you know, I'd look at surgery and go, well, look, this guy looks like he has it easy. Why is he complaining, you know, or, you know? Or, you know, it did seem to come easy to him. I think as you get on later in life, you realize that just because something looks easy on the outside, it was tough and serious on the inside. He had plenty of troubles going on. It wasn't there.

It did look all rosy. So you kind of look at somebody and you prejudge them. And there was no doubt there was always tension between us. And yeah, the Ryder Cups helped over the years. And for sure, this one helped even more. Because clearly the Ryder Cups bigger than both of us. But he really did pull together for me during that match. He did everything he could and everything I could ask of him. And there's no doubt we are on a much better sound footing.

And I think we understand each other. We understand each other's trials and tribulations in life. And as I said, sometimes you missed that. And you only see the surface. So I think that's, it's a lot easier. Well, it speaks to what you were saying earlier about 99.9% of golf is very individualistic, right? And being a captain for 12 people, you probably can't see the forest from the trees when you're in the middle of your prime and competitive nature, right?

I 100%. And another thing is, you assume everybody sees the world with the same eyes, that you do. And that's not the case. And when you become captain, that's the first thing you've got to get it. Well, not the first thing. It's the thing you've got to get a handle on all the way through is that everybody is a different way of operating. You know, some guys need very little.

They just need a little pointer in the direction and after go. Some guys with that pointer need to be held back a little bit. They could go too far. Other guys need reassurance. That's not a bad thing. Some guys just need a lot of early information. They need a lot of clarity. They need to know why.

You've got 12 players and they all have a little different But they don't have all different issues. You could probably we probably had You know, you could probably put five kind of certainly four groups maybe five groups of players and you know each Haven they did cross over in terms of each having a different Desire for information. I know in my career career I needed very little when it came to ride a cup. You know I needed nothing to be honest. I just, my biggest problem to ride a cup is I always wanted to practice more and I was I was being torn between having to go and do stuff and wanting to get more time practicing and

spend more time. I think that would have been Tiger's biggest problem. If I look them from the outside, I'm not really sure with this, but Tiger was a guy who, in his Ryder cups, or in a general practice, he'd practice from 6am to 9.30 and be gone from the golf course. You wouldn't see him there after 10 o'clock. You wouldn't see him on the range, he'd be finished. And then all of a sudden, I've Ryder cup,

he's been asked to go out and practice around a 10 o'clock and spend six hours on the range, he'd be finished. And then all of a sudden, I've read a copy, he's been asked to go out and practice around the 10 o'clock and spend six hours on the golf course. This is not what Tiger does. You know, he's quick practice round, get off, get off, rest. So there was a lot of stuff going on in the right of cups that really would have, for me, I found it difficult. It must have been really a completely out completely out of body experience for Tiger. And certainly very difficult to change. You know, when your mindset, especially when you're in the middle of your career, your mindset is,

how do I get myself up and running? And the right to cup can be tough for that, because there is a lot of team judges and you just have to row in. In my, I don't know if it's a direct correlation as much as I'm, I'm maybe trying to make it in the coming weeks or the most recent weeks, but this is the first Ryder Cup team on the US side without Tiger or Phil since 1993 at the Belfree. And it, it, those two are just a different level of stardom in US

golf. And it seems like a, just a different environment. Phil still obviously in the team room and Tiger being a big influence on that team. But it just seems like the biggest stars may have a just like to what you're saying, just have a bit of trouble trying to trying to not only not take over the team room, but also exist in this highly team environment. Am I on to something? Yeah, I think you're right. I like again, I don't really know what goes on in the US team room, but looking from the outside, you had two alpha males in there, and that is a big issue.

I think, again, looking from the outside, Tiger in his prime was not giving as in, but could Phil wanted to do all that, but it's very hard for Phil to stand up in the room and take charge When tiger sitting there, you know, that's that well I've seen this like this happened to us in 2008. I just won two majors You had Lee Westwood and you had Miguel and like You know we did poorly that week, but you know none of the three of us stood up and took any leadership.

When you look back at that, we were missing a Monty or a Diren Clare at the time. We needed somebody who wanted that role and was prepared to take it. I'm sure Tiger was quite happy to see Phil take that role, but I don't know if Phil could be that comfortable leading Tiger. Because clearly that's not how it works on the golf course. But Tiger in his prime wasn't one who wanted to be. I've seen that, you can look at my team or any of the teams, you can have the best player and he can be a leader on the golf course. But he doesn't necessarily want to be the guy talking in the team room.

And this is something that you have to figure want to be the guy talking in the team room. And this is something that you have to figure out who is the guy who wants to go beat his chest in the team room, who's passionate wants to get up and say, but then you can have another guy who's very passionate on the golf course and leads on the course. So I think that with the, from the outside, I wasn't in there in the US team room over the years, but I would definitely say two alpha males, one who wants it to do it, being filled, but it's very hard. It must be really intimidating to try and do that

in front of the tiger. That team just looked more freed up emotionally than any other, and it helps to be playing well. But it's also, you know, which one came first and do they contribute to each other and all that stuff. But when it comes to the Ryder Cup and Europe has to be proud of this, we have pushed the US so hard over the years

that they not alone care about for everything that we have innovated in the game of golf to get as good at the Ryder Cup. The US guys have now are doing it. There's no... Copy that, is the word you've been using? I said copy, yeah. I don't want to get rid of that.

Yeah, like, you know, every little thing, whether it's the stats or they know what we're doing, they've got their formula right. They know they can see the difference. You know, you go back years ago, where they say, oh, we'll just throw the balls up in the air. Our players are so good. They think...

I was even, you know, even in the air, our players are so good. I was even with the stats because our stats guys would be talking about this too. The way to get the most successful format result is to try and pair your fourth best team against their best so that your first second, third place, their second, third, fourth. And the US did that every day. They tried, they never, you know, they always, their best team never let out, number one, they were always trying to do that. You know, you can see how they prepared in advance, how they, you know, they done the work. They're trying hard. And, you know, Europe has to be very proud that we have, we have pushed them into a corner that they care about this Ryda Cup. And you remember when I started playing the Ryda Cup 20 years ago, just over 22 years ago, if you remember,

we were talking about payments for the Ryda Cup. And then you, what's the future to the Ryda Cup? Do we want to be playing this thing? Why are we doing this? You know, it's not like that anymore, is it? You know, this is every two years. This is the biggest thing in golf. And, you know, Europe has driven the US to the point, you know, we have pushed them over the edge. And unfortunately, I did say this earlier, in some ways, we poked the bear. That's kind of what it feels like, because it felt like it has always felt like to me. I truly think the US team has always wanted to win it very badly, but that almost has had a negative effect on them, putting pressure on themselves to play their best golf

rather than to what to your point, saying kind of embracing or copying the model that Europe has followed in terms of doing this as a team. You see what I'm saying? It felt like, it felt like Phil wanted to grab a stick and I'm going to go five and know and we're going to do this and that didn't seem like the best route to winning. Yeah, I would never question individuals on how they were doing it, but the overall team environment wasn't pulling in the same direction. You got to understand and this is the hardest thing. I did say it to my team.

I did like this, you know, 12 players. It's an unwritten rule, but you've got to play everybody the first day. Again, this is things that we learn from Europe. So everybody plays the first day. Well, that means that eight players in the two sessions are sit down, rest. So that's a lot of egos to manage. When you've eight players, they have to be rested. And usually eight players believe that you should be out there playing.

I think the US have found that very difficult over the years. And that's why, you know, that's lacking in the presence of everybody plays in most of the sessions, not all the sessions, but everybody plays most sessions in the presence cup. Everybody plays in most of the sessions, not all the sessions, but everybody plays most sessions in the presence cup. And let's face it, everybody plays when it's on the rates. In the big boys game, you've got to sit people out, and it's managing certain people out.

Having the players who are sitting out pulling for your team and not thinking that they should be out there, and why is he playing? And I'm a better player than him. Because it's hard to see the bigger picture. I think the US, their team was very prepared in that situation. I think more so than ever. They understood, from what I understand, from hearing,

they knew from very early on in the week Monday what their role was during the week. And players really need to understand our role when it comes to this writer call. And they knew, you know, some of your big name players, some star players knew, hey, I'm only playing twice before the singles. That's it.

And that's something that the US team could not, did not manage well in the past. But that's one of the things I think that they, you know, looking from our side, that they, they got the grips with that, they gave the things I think that they, you know, looking from our side that they got the grips with that They gave the players the information early. They got them to buy into the fact that look 12 does not go into each and you know, we have to do this four times That means good players and and as I try to explain to players You could be in the top four players in the team and not make a session

And it's just the way it is because you want to get other players out, you want to get a better, there's a different partnership, there's a little, you know, there's a little tweak here. And just because you're a better player doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be on that field. Tough course to get five sessions out of someone too, just with the energy it took to navigate through that golf course. And it also, it felt like the depth of the US team kind of permeated through the event. I go back to 2014 with what Paul McGinley did with Graham McDowell, who was a pretty big shot at the time. And he played only for some only with a rookie and got the honor of going to play going out first. And it kind

of felt like Bryson played that role in the US side where he only only four ball only played again with Rookie and then you know didn't get the didn't go out first but was near the top of the order and just the freshness that that that played into that that final day is just something that was maybe not a luxury on the European side. We we we clearly know that it's not in the player's individual best interest or the team interest firm to have played four times going into the singles So if you have a strong enough team You Worked the team and you make sure everybody gets a rest. I had a very balanced team

That was probably the best thing about my team in the sense it was very balanced Everybody was capable of playing for some some four balls So it was easy to mix a match my team around to make sure I think only two guys did all five matches. If you know and I'd love to have the luxury of resting John and Victor and if you look boated them lost their singles and you know it was very telling, I didn't see a lot of John's match because it was an earlier match. I saw a little bit of Victor's

because it just got a little bit more there. And you could see that he was double checking and second guessing his reads on the greens. That's a sign of tiredness. You know, that's what happens when you're tired. You just, a little bit of doubt creeps in and you overdo things. And unfortunately, I think we were in a better, like if we won this, I'd be saying this

is one of the reasons. Years ago, as I said, you go back to 99 and like seven of the players had played four times into the singles. And the wonder we got well and truly beaten in the singles. It's just too much golf. The US was a very strong team and it did allow themselves to rest guys. But I think more to do what you said at the start, the clarity the price and had, look, he wasn't sitting there at Thursday night thinking, oh, I'm going to get played him for Friday morning, Friday afternoon, I want to match.

Do I get played twice the next day? No, he knew what he was doing and clearly had bought into that. You know, usually the week after the rider cup, there's controversy that ensues. It's really been rather, rather quiet on that front. But the only thing that has come out and I heard you mentioned it in your press conference earlier was some articles that were written about ball changes and how that made a change in the pairings. But it seems like it was not nearly as a big a deal

as it may have been written about. I couldn't believe. Somebody was trying to, you know, somebody, I don't read the social media, but obviously I get questions back and somebody was saying, oh, you know, like the US, they didn't say like the US, because obviously the US won by doing this, but they were trying to hold, you told the team the pairings on Tuesday, you know, they were trying to say, would you not wait to see them play in practice? And I can say, well, look, some players play well in practice, and some players play terrible in practice. You know, you can't hold practice rounds over people. And even if I did hold it over

them, you know, you wanted to free people up anyway. And as I said, the key here is the US did is giving early information to the players so they can settle in and know what their role is during the week. So when we practice for some, a lot of our matches were more organized than people thought with the ball throwing up. But when we practice four sums on Wednesday, nowadays you're allowed to switch the balls on the tee. So it's not a huge difference using it somebody else's golf ball. Which quickly explained that you would want to use the player who you want to use your own ball for the approach. For the approach. That one, that's the one that tends to you. You want a ball that goes consistently is the approach up because

that's, if it goes five yard shorter off the tee or five yards not a big deal but into the green that's a big deal. So you you you to play your playing forces will hit your ball off the tee and then you play the approach up with your ball and every you have to whatever ball goes off one has to go off all the odd holes and whatever ball goes off two has to go off all the even holes correct no oh you can play whatever ball you want to choose that. You choose every time. OK, wow. So one of the issues was a player came in. He was uncomfortable with the ball on the greens.

It was a big trickie for him. So we said, OK, are we going to force him into doing this? And we had a look at it. And we said, well, look, we was incidental. We can change the partnerships up. We still had an experienced player with a Rocky, which is what we wanted. You know, it was easy to switch it out, we switched it over to partnerships. It was really, really an incidental, but I brought it up actually because I was just

pointing out that as much as we told the guys who were playing Forrest on Tuesday, you know, if you have to make a change, you make a change. You know, nothing is set in stone, but that's what we're thinking of doing. This is what we're going to do. This is what we had to change. And it was really incidental, but somebody then wrote an article saying that was like we were in turmoil. I'm going, do you realize how many different golf balls these players play? Like they all play a different ball. You know, we could all, you could have, you know, I'd say there was an E. I think there's eight or nine, I think nine different golf balls in play between our 12 players. So everybody was playing with a different golf ball more or less.

So it's not, it's with a different golf ball more or less, so it's not It's part of picking out your partnerships. You try and match guys up that would be comfortable So you look at a partnership as I said the partnership was comfortable There were both you know was comfortable up onto the putton We says oh well we can we can switch that over. It's no problem. The new partnerships practiced on Thursday morning, ForSums. Again, there was no look to the way they threw the balls up and who played with each other. They went off and played for ForSums and they were very comfortable with it.

But you know, this is, I think what happens is, the more I talk about it, the more it gets a bigger story. Well, I was giving you the chance to clear it up. It doesn't sound like a big deal. I was amazed that I came out as a big deal story because as I said when I brought it up, it was that partnerships change. And of course they change it. I'm bare in mind, I can tell you what, like you have an hour, you have an hour to put your team in Thursday night for Friday night for Saturday morning. You have limited time during the matches on Friday morning and Saturday to get your afternoon team in. So the Friday night you have an hour to get your Saturday morning team in.

So that is something you've got to really have some good vice captors because you're dragging your players together. Who's played well today, who's won points. Do you put a player out who's played well, but not one point, or do you put a player out who's won a point who's played okay, our average? Which do you want, what do you want in the golf course? Do you want to win or on the golf course or do you want to play or play well? Does that match up?

Are they good for forcing, what about the ball, what about the personalities? Do we have a leader in that group? Do we have two leaders in the group? Are they going to be friction there? You know, does each person understand what their role will be tomorrow? You know, there's a lot of things to have to be sorted out in an hour. So, you know, what bulls come into it for the Friday morning, I can tell you, well, there is is like, you know, get on with it. Yeah. I'm going to ask this question two different ways.

The easy way or the lazy way is how big of a factor did Wistling Straits play in the result and set another way. If you put those two teams up against each other at LaGolf National in Paris, how different do you think the result may be? Look, it was a good venue for us. As it turned out, I think the US Look, it was a good venue for us.

As it turned out, I think the US team's practice the week before was a big deal. It makes that big of a difference. Well, they got the tournament win, obviously, changed. We practiced in one win, and it changed for the actual three days of the tournament, and seemingly that's the win they practiced in. So sometimes turning up a week before an event, I've tried it at majors is useless. In this particular case, it wasn't,

it worked out very well. So the golf course, yeah, you know, it did, you know, I got all the stats afterwards. They walloped us off the tee. I think they gained nearly 17 strokes off the tee against us. Believe it or not, that's 1% more fairways. Four yards extra distance. So they hit 1% more fairways. They hit a four yards further than us. And we hit 2% more times into the wild areas.

So it was very little difference in the teams, except the little difference they did time and time again. So, you know, this is people are going back, oh well, does Europe need to change? I'm going to go on, we've been very successful. Why would we change? So when you look at the stats and what's afterwards, actually

a fact they were better than us, but only marginally, but time and time again which added up to a big victory. And you would see most of the matches were pretty tight. So there wasn't a huge deal of difference in a lot of things except for the fact that, you know what, they were just a little better all the time which added up to a big result. And if I'm looking at the European side, I see, you know, maybe an out of control crop of potential captains for the next two decades, Westwood, McDowell, Polter, Rose, Stenson, Garcia, Donald, there's almost more captains than there are rider cups.

But if I'm looking at that, that also tells me that there's a crop of guys that are graduating out of just an incredibly successful run of playing on this while coming off this US team, that is the strongest team and youngest team that we think we've seen. Is there any cause for concern or reason to be concerned on the European side for both what the US has currently going and kind of this graduation of a lot of their top players? Look, there's ebbs and flows. So absolutely the US right on top of the world at the moment. You know, there's so many players in the top ten in the world, they really, and they got it right, they picked the rookies that were young and suited the golf course.

They did a great job. They made that mistake in the past. They weren't making it again. As I said, they're learning from the mistakes or copy. Yeah. So look, going forward, Europe doesn't need to worry. We've done it right for quite a long time. Keep doing it. There's eps and flows in this game. Like in 2018, There's ebbs and flows in this game. Like in 2018, your writer cup wise was like the best ever. They were right on top of the world. That team was spectator. Clearly we've come down from then.

And the US have risen quite substantially. But in two years time, it's a long time in golf. There is serious ebbs and flows in the game in golf. You know, guys who are peaking now will drift off a little bit and new guys will come on the scene. So, you know, it'd be tough if we had to play in the right-of-cook next week, you know, in the US. I don't know if anybody would want that job. But, you know, in two years years time, it's a different story. And an underrated aspect is I think this Ryder Cup plays out very differently if it was played

in 2020 in the fall. The US team would have been different. Europe team probably would have been different. One, and COVID has to have been harder on European, like European golfers than it has been on American golfers. I would have to guess, is that fair? I think that's very fair. We, a lot of Europeans, it was a huge issue traveling and European based players, it was a bit of a disaster trying to get back and forth. And there's no doubt, yeah, we would have had a substantially different team in 2020.

The US would have had a different team. But look, you can only play the match you're playing at the time, you're going to hype the technical status. The US turned up with a great team. Great team of players. They worked. They did a great job. We look forward to getting the back-and-row.

And time is a great healer when it comes to golf. I can tell you what, it moves on. Yeah. Well, I'll get the only non-radar cup question I'll ask you. Then I'll let you get out here. I know it's been a long media day for you. But this is your first week, first start on the Champions Tour this week, PGA Tour Champions here at the Constellation Furek and Friends. What would you say, you know, what is left for you to accomplish in golf? What is something that you are really

hoping to check off in the next decade in your golf career? There's not a lot that will change my legacy in golf now. The really isn't winning another golf tournament, you know, will be nice. I'll enjoy it, but it doesn't change who I am, what I've done in the game. You know, even winning another major, three, four majors, that'd be nice to win another major, but it's not like air-chattering difference. So that's kind of hard on me at times, you know, because, you know, I'm not out here, you know, to win tournaments, sometimes you've got to be happy with it, top 10, unfortunately, I'm not. But look, I'm hoping that I come to the Champions Tour

and, you know, find my comfort more, you know, I'm definitely stressed out on the PGA tour. It's like, I feel like I need a perfect week, every week, to compete and win. You know, when you think you need perfection, it never turns up. And hopefully, you know, here on this tour, I find my knees should get comfortable. And who knows, it could bring some confidence back to my game.

I'm reporting that I might be able to bring back to those, you know, major tournaments and regular tournaments. Yeah, I mean, T-4, at this past PGA championship, it's not like it's unrealistic for you to win another major. Well, physically, I'm okay. You know, I still have the distance and the struggle to compete with the young guys and keep up there. I just don't put as well. I don't do the other things as well. As much as Phil clearly was a deserved winner, you know, wow, could I have made a few shots on the greens even in the last nine holes to push to me a little bit tighter. So yeah, you know, maybe coming out here, I might relax a little bit and hold a few more puts and if, you know, I could find my confidence. But

I am worried, the fact that very few players who've come here ever can go back. The difficult one to do both, you know, with a slightly, easier golf courses. It's hard to go back to the tougher titer. It is the standard under PJ Tour is like, it is very narrow. Has it evolved a lot in your career? Oh, yeah, depthwise it is incredible. Like, you know, I was telling a story down below there, a couple of weeks ago, I was on tour at, I think Friday, morning, you know, maybe 10 holds into the round that I put to go four under, which was top 10 in the event. You know, genuinely, maybe three shots behind at that stage, I missed that put and then I bogged the next hole, so now I'm two under. And I know the cut's going

to be at least one under. So one minute I'm looking at it, I'm right in this tournament. And the next, like one hour later, I'm now worried about the cut line. It is very, very intense and stressful and very narrow because of the strength of depth on tour. And you know, there's my new difference between missing a cut and being in contention. And I would also I would disagree with you slightly that your legacy wouldn't change with another major win because Raymond Floyd, Ernie L's, Rory McElroy and Brooks Capka with four major wins. I think that would that be pretty pretty elite company to be a part

of. It's great company at three, but I think that would be pretty special company to be a part of. I think I think my son's pointed out to me that there was only 29 players who have ever won three. And that was, that's obviously moved on since then, but it's probably 30, 30, 30, 30 guys. And that is including pre, you know, the history, like a lot of the, the, the modern list is even thinner than that. I think it's something like 12 or something like that or yeah There's certainly very few who I know

obviously I think The guys I would have competed against at the time with Tiger in his peak it wasn't that many you know, it was a tough tough run I think I think somebody said like I was Like I was a long time in the top 10 in the world that sort of stuff You know there's a lot of good things that I can look back on that I did in the game. Certainly have I certainly far exceeded my own expectations when I started out. I know I'm trying it, like three, four, five years ago I was certainly burned out in the game and I just found a new passion for it. You know, I tried a few different things, I was certainly burned out in the game. And I just found a new passion

for it. You know, I tried a few different things. I was looking at it. And I just realized that, you know, who wouldn't want to do what I do? Like, literally, I travel the world, the nicest places, nicest hotels, the best golf courses. You know, why not? Why wouldn't you enjoy this lifestyle? So I actually enjoy it a lot more now than I probably did even in my prime. It's not all about the golf now, there's more to it. But back in my prime, I was very disciplined, very long-haired hours. Now I make sure to take a little bit of time out

for myself and enjoy the whole experience. I'm sorry, Latic, because I have to ask a follow-up on that, because isn't there something to win your life is every week playing incredible golf and traveling the world and doing it? That it almost can seem like there isn't any high above that. Every week is a high, but it no longer is a high

because it's all high. Is that part of your experience at all? I make more time to enjoy the company now. So like, you know, 15 years ago, you know, I just did my own thing. I nobody interfered with my plan. Now, you know, if there's an Irish guy at the event, we're going out for dinner. And I'm prepared to work around. Other people's schedules in order to have an enjoyable week, whereas I did not give up that I didn't give anything of me, you know, 15 years ago. Now I'm much more prepared to look, there's more to enjoy out here. And I know I need to do that in order to sustain myself. You've got to find a different way. You know, you do

get burned out if you try and keep doing the same old thing over and over. It's not that there's no point in me doing anything else in my life. I just got to reinvent the way I'm doing it. Well, thanks for spending some time with us. I know a lot of media requests with your first event here, but look forward to watching this week at Tim Aquana and on the Champions Tour for years to come. Cheers, thanks. Thank you. A quick pit stop here before we get to Chris DeMarco and what do you do during a pit stop? You change your tires. I never

put much thought into tires in the past. I thought it was always, you know, drive what comes on the vehicle. If I have to replace them, just make the decision based on the price. Our friends at Cooper Tires know what they're talking about. Cooper's been an American company since 1914 more than a century in the tire industry. Each Cooper tire undergoes rigorous testing in our back by warranty. So you can trust that the last for thousands of miles. Cooper's pride themselves on good merchandise, fair play, and a square deal. Always have always will.

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I'm gonna start you with a fun fact. I don't know if it's a fun fact or not. You hold a distinct record. I did a little research last night. There's only one person I think in the history of the game that has two solo second finishes and majors to Tiger Woods. Oh Really Ernie was runner up. He was T2 at the 2000 US Open and 2000 Open Championship But I think it's I get T2 is. A solo two is different than a T2. Would you agree with that?

Well, I'll take it. Whatever I get. Yeah. I did not know a solo second to him. I know that. I was second to him quite a few times. Well, because I'm looking at 2005 masters and you finished seven shots clear of third place.

Yep. And you lost to the greatest player in the history of the game. Yep. And I've heard you talk about that a lot over the years and it seems to be something you enjoy talking about or beam with and it's not necessarily a bitter memory. Is that fair to say? It is.

I always said that all the majors I finished second and even the one in Whistling Straits in 04 where I lost to play up to VJ, me and Justin Leonard. All those majors, I actually made birdies down his stretch to give myself chances. I didn't make bogies to lose them. So, you know, I just got beat and you know when you're playing against a VJ was the number one player in the world at the time and then Tiger obviously Tiger Woods. So, you know, as long as you go out and you play your best and you perform when

accounts, you know, you can lay your head down asleep. You know, if I would have bogied 17-18 to get into a playoff and then lost in the playoff, that would have probably stung and lasted a lot longer than what it is now. Now you get applauded for actually taking the goat to the end and not backing down. So I enjoyed those moments. Obviously, I'd like to have a major win. It'd be fantastic.

But just being in that position and performing when it mattered was huge. So it sounds like it's just easier to reconcile with knowing that you, and you've talked about this too about how you thrived under the pressure. And hearing you talk about, I watched your ESPN thing that you did last year during, you know, when COVID had hit and the match was skipped and you did someone, Michael Collins, just talking about, you know, you're, you thought you could win that day and you proved that you could play good enough in 2005, masters to win that. Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, it's, it's, it's,

what all golfers strive for is to get in that situation where, you know, you're nervous and anxious for the situation, but you're not nervous about your game. You're not worried about your putt and stroke, you're not worried about where your irons are going, you're not worried where your driver's going and, and you have a focus like no other. I mean, I've never been able to, I've done it maybe 5% of my career, but I've been able to focus like Tiger focuses all the time, which makes him the greatest player in the world because he does it all the time.

He treats the first hole of any tournament, like it's a 72nd hole to win the golf tournament. It's amazing how somebody can have that kind of focus and maybe that's what he gets himself up for. But for me, it wasn't enough. I wish I did it more. And I guess that's the extra talent that he has on everybody else.

Help me out with that. How does that, you know, you would love to be able to focus like that in every tournament. Why can't you? Just for the listeners say, why can't you? You know, obviously it's a personality thing I would think. You know, I mean, my mind's always working. You know, we're tiger, can maybe just put himself

in a situation where he just, you know, you see him out there and it's so business-like and he really doesn't have any kind of emotion on his face. He's not really, you know, now it's better, but back then when he was, you know, an 040590, he said, I mean, he was stoic. I mean, you didn't know what was going on in that brain. And, you know, that was just the focus that you needed to have. I mean, he had to, I guess, you think about the crowds and the media that was always around him, always circulating around him. And for him, he had to get himself out of that to basically, not even feel like there was people around, because if he listened to everything that everybody was screaming at him, you know, he'd had no focus. So I think he had to do something special to

get that focus. I always found it very interesting how the different ways that Tiger and Phil approached the crowd were Phil will engage with almost every single person that we all his name and I always wondered if Tiger heard people yell in his name. You know what I mean? Or do you do you do you think he hears it or do you think he truly has it blocked out? I think it's the modern day Lee Trevino Jack McClus. I think McClus was a lot like Tiger Woods and I think Trevino and Mikkelson are very similar. I think he hears it. I think that it's certain things. I think, you know, when he was the best player in the world and winning and you could scream in and you

wanted to know the other thing about him. I think that, you know, once he had that, once it all came out with, you know, the women and all that, I think people would maybe say things like that. It's hard not to hear that kind of stuff because now it's not about golf, now it's personal, now it's time to get me and it's hard to focus with that. But, and again, it's tough. And I mean, that's the thing about a lot of fans sometimes is that they scream out things that is a person. You can scream out whatever you want if it's golf related,

but when it gets personal, those ropes aren't soundproof. We can hear that kind of stuff. And it's one of this, it goes with the territory. And it is one of this. I always say that for every 10,000 fans, there's probably 10 idiots that just have to scream and yell and do something that they don't want to do. They just be heard. And you take that, you know, you get 100,000 people and there's 100 of them. It's not that many, but it's, it's enough sometimes. Yeah. It feels like a lot. I'm sure.

It's like a lot. Yeah. So tell us about your relationship with Tiger leading up to the O5 Masters that leads to a rather comical exchange on the range on Sunday afternoon that I admit I'd never heard that story and I also didn't really, I wasn't aware that you guys kind of had that relationship. Well, we had been on two teams prior to that. So in going to our third team, so what teams were those?

The O4 Ryder Cup and O3 president. They could be the O3 presidents, O4 Ryder Cup, yes, exactly what it was. And so, you know, team room and all that and he knew I was a big Gator fan and a lot of, you know, even those weeks there was a Gator game on and I'm, you know, I'm all in watching them and, you know, he always liked to root root for the other team, you know, whoever it would be if we were playing Alabama, he'd be like, oh, Alabama, I mean, just to kind of rib me. So that week on Monday night, the Gators had won a national championship basketball. So it was just him and I in range and I just kind of took a ball up and I went, you know,

go Gators on it and flipped it down to him. And one of the better shots I hit the whole day, it literally, he was like 40 yards from me, just kind of one hop skipped and kind of ran into it where his club was. And he kind of picked it up. I turned around and hit balls. And next next thing an old ball comes flying back. I mean, he kind of rubbed out the go and wrote F the gators on there. And I still have that ball. So where is it?

The ball is in a box and I have it. I know exactly where it is, but I have that ball. Yeah. I did not know that that was a possible rise. You could get out of tiger automator championships Sunday in that era. This is like 20 minutes before we're going out to, you know, I mean, I think it was good. I think it was good levity for both of us.

I mean, I think it was just something just to kinda, you know, the situation was big because it was a lot of rain delays that weekend and we were finally, yeah, we were finally getting around. We know the weather's gonna be good. We're finally getting out there and it was just like a nice little, you know, deep breath before we went and played and it was fun.

Because was his crazy birdie run? It was round three, nice little, you know, deep breath before he went and played and it was fun. Because was his crazy birdie run? It was round three, but it was Sunday morning or did it bridge from Saturday night into Sunday morning, if I remember that right? So I think he had birdied eight and nine and I think I'm pretty sure he birdied eight, maybe seven, eight and nine and then hit his drive on ten and it hit left and this was wet out and he had a big old clop of mud on his ball and they and they actually blew the siren before he had hit that shot and then he had a beautiful shot in there about I think like five feet left and all made birdie again

and then he birdie eleven birdie twelve and birdie thirteen I think you got to clean it over night. Clean it over night. Yeah. And you know how that's I mean that shot into the green if you don't know where your ball's going I mean you could make six. Exactly. I mean it could be left in the pine straw.

It could have flooded straight, and it could have made birdie, but it could have got anywhere. Right. That's interesting. And I never thought of that from that perspective. It seems also like you weren't shy about chatting him up during the actual round out there too.

Do you remember any stories of, you know, kind of chatter back and forth on that Sunday? It wasn't that Sunday. I remember playing with him my first master's ever, and I shot 65, 69, and had a couple shot lead, and this was, he was going for the Tiger Slam. So he had won the three previous, and we got paired on Saturday together.

The first time I'd ever played with him, at Augusta, I'm leading for the first time, and he's, you know, going for the Tiger Slam. And I remember making the turn, and I just looked over and I said, is this your world? He goes, every day, brother, every day, I went, you could have it.

I mean, just amount of people screaming and yelling, and it was like such chaos. It was like the Beatles weren't down. And it was like that on Sunday in 05. And by that time I had played the year before with Phil and watched Phil win. So I certainly took a lot in on that back nine watching Phil, you know, basically go get it, not sit back and try to make powers and hope that something, you know, they would come back on. At Augusta, the way it was even in O5,

I mean, I could get to all the par five. So, I mean, it was, you needed to make some birdies or you weren't going to win the tournament. So, I had watched and learned and obviously Phil So I had watched and learned and obviously Phil watching him make that win and getting basically he got that proverbial monkey off his back because that was his first major ever and he went on to win on his seven now I think. But sometimes not winning is a good thing to see because I watched it, I saw Phil go get it and then obviously Ernie was ahead of us that year so we didn't have the luxury. You've seen what Ernie was doing so Phil just kind of kept the foot in the gas and went with it, where I was up close in personal with Tiger, we knew what was going on.

We got to the back nine, I think we were six, seven shots ahead, so it basically was a, or four or five ahead, it was basically a two-man battle at that point. Especially with three or four to go, then it was just him versus I, it was kind of just match play. Because that's what I remember you saying to about the 15th hole when you laid up on 15, which it sounds like you had a very good reason to lay up and who was it? Was it Laney in the booth? Yeah. It was critical of it, but there was no you were so far clear a third place. There was nothing else to play for. Right. It wasn't like I was laying up to play for third. I mean, I had, so people who know Augusta, there's these two little mounds on the right,

and it was about 230 to the front, and the other one's about 210 to the front. What do they call it? They have a nickname, right? Gumdrops. Gumdrops. So I hit them to the right, and I think I hit it over the second one,

and I had like 210 front, maybe like 220 to the whole. So it was, if I hit three wood, it's on a down slope, it's gonna fly to green. It's probably gonna go in the water over the green. And if I hit a two iron, which I fly about 215 yards, which would have been perfect, but I don't think off that lie I could have got it high enough to fly it far enough to hold the green. And also that one was afraid.

So I just laid up to my yardage and I ended up making birdie. I didn't know I four feet made birdie. But I mean, at that point, normally I would have probably, if I was two back, I probably would have tried something. But being, you know, even I think, or one back at that time, I felt like, you know, plenty of holes left. He wasn't hitting it as great as he normally hits it.

So I didn't feel like I needed to push the pressure. And I felt like if I made Bogey to his birdie in three shots with, you know, three to go, it was it. So I tried to play to my strength. I knew I wouldn't gonna make Bogey, the worst I was gonna be is two back and was able to make birdie. Because that's what I think people don't have a full appreciation for 15. 15's essentially an island green. There it is. And if you landed it, if you land

anything on the front four or five steps on that green, it rolls back into the water. It doesn't stay up. I mean it rolls into the water. So basically it's out of bounds on the front of the green is what it is. So you know you to, you have to play that hole for the spin into the green. Whatever you're hitting into that green, you've got to be able to control the spin. If you can't control the spin, you have no idea where the ball's going to go. That is probably the hole that has the biggest variance in seeing it in person, my reaction to it versus what I watch on TV. Yeah, because it just looks like a bad, you're downhill, you can hit a nice shot in that green. And you I wouldn't even want to hit a wedge. That green.

Well, that's sometimes a scariest shot because then you're now you have to spin. Yeah. So it's like, you know, you got to hit a far enough or flight it down or you're taking a spin off. I mean, it is a very deep. Sometimes just happy to hit the green. Yeah.

Did Phil ever reconcile with you? Did he ever buy you a steak? Did he ever get you a bottle of wine for you hitting a ball a foot past his before his final put in 2004. You know, he hasn't, and we've talked about it, but I will say this too, is that I've said that to skip Kendall a bunch of times about my, you know, the grip that I use for when I putt. I always told him, I said, oh, you're really big dinner, I haven't taken him out on that

either. So, but yeah, I mean, Phil and I are still very close and obviously was happy to see him win the PGA You know, it's it's good for our tour taking the truth to see a 50-year-old win out in their tour still so yeah I mean it was you know what I think that was the most nervous I wasn't a putt all day to tell you the truth was that putt on 18 when I blasted out of the bunker My ball went maybe four inches behind his the same exact line He kind of came behind me and said show me a good read here, and I was like oh my gosh

Okay, this I better a good putt here me and said, show me a good read here. And I was like, oh my gosh, okay, this, I better hit a good putt here. And I did, I hit a good putt to just cut the edge and lipped out. And then he hit one, maybe he might have played just a half an inch more and he went in. Because that ball fell in the edge. It did, too, yeah.

If it would have, if it would have, what to, so tell me about learning the grip from Skip Kendall. But what, you know, you were, the claw was pretty, you know, well, highly used, I would say, out on a lot of tours now. But at that time, it was, you were the innovator of that on the tour. I used, I would say, out on a lot of tours now, but at that time,

it was you were the innovator of that on the tour. I was, yeah, so we were playing a little mini tour of that in 95, and that's, I just lost my card on the PGA tour, obviously, because of putting. And I saw Skip inside the, we were in a rangelate, Lake Portavista, and I was telling, he goes, what are you gonna do next year? I said, I don't know, I can't make it from a foot.

I'm done, and he goes, let me show you this, and he showed me this grip, and I was telling you what are you gonna do next year? I said, I don't know, I can't, I can't make it from a flood. I'm, I'm done and he goes, let me show you this and he showed me this grip and I looked out like he was nuts and we went on our ways and we, you know, we, so the next day I was out playing with my buddies and I had one of those pots that I knew there was no chance I was gonna make. Now let me try this stupid thing that skipped showed me and I went and it was like, whoa, I mean, it was like holy smokes. I haven't hit a pot like this since I was 12.

It was like, whoa, I mean, it was like holy smokes. I haven't hit a pot like this since I was 12. And I literally, my scores went from 73, 72 to 63, 64. I mean, literally overnight. I mean, it was, now you have confidence to make a three footer and stroke it in confidently. It's a huge thing. And does that trickle back into other parts of your game when you're struggling, putting,

does it seep into ball striking anyways? It really doesn't because that was the thing that was so infuriating was that I was such a good ball striker that I was hitting 17 greens around and shooting 73. And I mean, I'd have 10 puts inside 10 feet with six of those being inside five feet and I wasn't making birdies.

So, you know, Skip showed me that and then it was funny. I went down in 96 and qualified for Honda, qualified for Dral and I was on the putt and green and Dral and Calc walks up and or walks by and he tells us door and he looks it over at me the way I'm putt and he goes, man, I tried a lot of grips but I know that's one way I'll never putt and what, 1998 to 2020, he's still puttin that way so he's going on year 24 himself. What is it do it? Is it just take part of the wrist out of it because I've messed around with it on the putting green and every time I try to take it to the course, it feels horrible, but it feels amazing when I try it on the putting green.

Do you need a special angle of the putter to make it work or anything? I think everybody does it different. I think the most important thing is the thumb underneath the shaft. I think that's the most important thing. What it does for me is my right hand used to be the hand it liked to hit the ball. It just takes that out for me. And that's me putt with my left side. And if I putt with my left side, specifically my middle finger, my index finger, my pinky

finger, those three putt, if I try to putt with those, it helps to stroke a lot. And I think that, you know, it just takes your right hand out. And I think you see a lot of variations of it. There's plenty of different variations, a couple of fingers down the grip, whatever it is. But I think the one constant that they all use when they use the claws, the thumb underneath. Going back to, this is my last question I have for O5,

I meant to weasel this in there earlier, but there's probably no golf shot I've seen more often in the last 20 years than the chip on 16. There's probably no person that paid a greater price receiving into that chip than you. What, do you look away when that chip comes on now? Do you get asked about it still every day? What's your reaction to see that?

You know, at first it was kind of, you know, I was like, wow, you know, I can't believe you made that part of me. Now you look back and you think about how what the historic value of that chip is to Augusta. And if they show the full clip, I'll be in that clip all the time because I'm walking up on the green and watching that chip come down to hill. I mean, I had the best view of anybody. I had a better view than Tiger who was kind of on the back part of the green looking at it. I was watching the thing come straight down at me into the hole. I mean, I'm kind of blowing like stop, you know.

And, you know, we all know the end. It stops in the edge and perfect Nike commercial and drips in. But you look back at that. If it was 18 and that would happen, I think I probably would have more. If I was Greg Norman watching Larry Meas' Mice chip in on me, I think that would get me anyway like that. But since it was 16 and he went two up the night, I came back and won the next two holes

to get back to even with him getting a playoff. I think that, you know, it's not that bad. Yeah, as I say, because in match play, you're supposed to be trained, I know it's not match play, but you're supposed to be trained for, to be prepared for somebody to hold it from anywhere. Yeah, could you have possibly been prepared for him to hold that shot? Well, you know, it's funny you say that because it was in 04, I was working with GeoValiente, and we worked specifically on it, expect the unexpected. So I worked really great at Wistland Strait, you know, obviously I lost in a play up there, and then to go right to 2005, I was thinking the same exact thing. So in my mind, I had kind of played out every scenario that could have happened, and I'll

be it, it wasn't a lot of situation in my head about him chipping in. I definitely crossed my mind, and then when it went in, it wasn't a lot of situation in my head about him chippin' in. I definitely crossed my mind and then went it went in. It definitely was surprising, but I was just a teeny bit prepared for it, so I was able to just kind of focus on my puttin' and try to make that. You hit a good putt. I did, I caught the left edge and just messed, yeah. 04 Wisting Straits, I feel like, honestly,

I took me, I'm a complete golf nut. I had to be reminded that you were in the playoff in 2004 because you kind of, I don't almost say backdoor, you had like the round of the day on that Sunday. What was so difficult about that Sunday in 2004? I think the win finally blew, and I think it blew a different direction. I think that it came from what we hadn't seen the whole week.

And my goal going into that day because I think I was six or seven shots back of VJ going into it. My goal was to finish in the top 10 to solidify myself on the Ryder Cup. You know, I hated relying on a captain's pick. I just wanted to do it myself. And, you know, and I hit the shot in 18. I hit a six iron in there about 12, 15 feet underneath the hole. And I kind of put my arm up.

It was more for I just I'm going to make the Ryder Cup team. I mean, or so I'm going to finish the top five. I mean, and then, you know, guys started coming back and making bogies. Because you were two back on 18 putting for birdie. You didn't know it at the time. But I think it was Justin Lindner was struggling. It was about to make bogie on 16. So you would have been two back if you're putting for birdie.

But you're probably still not thinking that's to get into a playoff. No, and actually to win. To win. Yeah. And I think I was so focused on making the a rider cup that I didn't, and again, I didn't think I was going to win. I left it probably like two or three inches short dead center, you know, it was a slow

putt going up the hill, but I look, you know, I tapped in, I'm like, all right, whatever, and looking back, that probably is the putt. If I had a putt, I'd like to putt over in my whole career. That would probably be the one just to hit it hard enough. Yeah. I mean, even if I knock it four feet by and three put, it didn't really matter. I mean, but that was a chance to win the tournament. I didn't know it, but that was a chance to do it.

And what it was fun, that was a fun, that was such a great golf course. It is such a great golf course. What, you know, it happens, you know, probably not that frequently, but if somebody hits a putt short on the 18th green, I feel like everyone's at home screaming, like, oh, that's the only thing you can't do.

What is it like to try to hit a putt that you know you have to make, right? But I don't know how to phrase it, but you can't ram it through the break, right? You still have to get the speed right if you're making a putt from distance, right? I think people don't understand that you can have the best line in the world, but if your speed's off,

you're not gonna make the putt. So every one of us out here has a speed in mind. I'm a guy that likes to see pots lip in. There's some guy, like you see Tiger Woods and he lips out a lot of pots because he puts so firm. They better go in the middle where they're going to lip out. I didn't want to catch any part of the hole and let it lip in.

So for a putter like me, when you have to make a putt, like it scrambles a hard for me. Because I don't just want to knock at four feet by because then now I'm not reading the pot like I would normally read it and for me that's how I always read it so I think the most important thing is think about speed first and then get your line because that is the most important and I think you know obviously when you're nervous I mean I know my tendency is when I'm nervous is to leave it short I just think that's what it is people are you know you don't

necessarily hit it so I had to tell myself when I was working with geo we I talked about that and he goes you just have to physically tell yourself you have to hit it six inches harder than you think you need to hit it and sometimes I think about that a lot of its grip pressure you know you're your adrenaline's going and you hold on to the putter a little bit tighter and you can't really feel the head as much and you leave a little short so I would physically try to hold the putter a little bit softer so that you know my hands wouldn't grip it so tight. Well, it's funny because I associate your, I guess, clutch putting very, you know, I honestly forgot about the putt and no for it because I associate you have your putt at the president's

cup, you've got a putt there on the 18th green at Augusta to get into the playoff with Tiger. I've always associated you with being a clutch putter. So I just found that interesting looking back on that putt being short and I was curious if you had learned from that or Totally, you know and you know even with you know putting woe sometimes that you have I've always been I think anybody on this tour to day true. Anybody on any tour I think you don't get to that level if you don't find a way to get it and even if you don't have your best stuff You find a way when it matters to get the ball in the hole. I think that's what makes everybody.

That's why they call this the champion's tour. I think everybody out here has that gene in them. So even back then, when I wasn't put in good, I still seem to make a putt when I needed to make a putt. I never missed a putt really on the 18th hole that meant something knock on wood. We don't want to start now. But it's what it is.

I think that's the gene that we all have. And when you are feeling good with all parts of your game, it's, obviously golf is a lot easier. I can tell you that. But when you're struggling with one, you know, even if it's your driver, now all of a sudden, you're just on every tee with anxiety, you know, maybe you're not hitting your irons, you know, where you're going. Now you're in the fairway with anxiety.

If you don't feel like the putters working, now you're on the green with anxiety. So, you know, unfortunately, there's a lot of anxiety in golf. Well, I've heard, I've heard Patrick Harrington say the phrase, we've talked about this a lot lately, of they're being an innocence to youth in golf, where you know, you know, it's a lot of things, like I've tried to figure out, when a guy has a peak in his career,

and they're on the downside, it's almost always injury-related, or I think a contributing factor can be almost too much knowledge, too much scar tissue. I'm curious if you have maybe perspective on both of those things I would imagine. Well, it just took the absolute word out of my mind, scar tissue. I mean, when I watch these kids now and it's amazing, if you go look at the late 80s, early 90s and you watch guys that had chances to win, they were missing four footers coming in. I mean, there was no give me.

The announcer would knock it by any natural. Ooh, there's some bone and that, I mean, an epo. Now you don't even hear that anymore. These kids are just from four feet to just banging right in the back of the hole like it doesn't even matter. You know, we're back in the late age. We were dynamin' drunk just trying to get them in the hole in the way we could. So, you know, there is, there's like no, I'm glad to hear you say that because I I felt like growing up as a kid I will like part of tuning into watch Sunday golf was like can this guy have the two shot lead hold on to it Yeah, and it felt like they lost him more often than they want to feel different now

It does feel different. I mean when these kids when they're up there I mean, you know like even they say Colin more a cow that's it is He's not the greatest parts is one week. He doesn't really have any weaknesses But if the weakest part of. That's his one week, he doesn't really have any weaknesses, but if the weakest part of his game is his putting, but I'll tell you what, when he has a chance to win, those four footers are going in dead center and they're not going in slow, they're going in firm.

I mean, I'll tell you, when I had to put it to presence cup, what goes through your mind is obviously I'm trying to make it, but I'm also in my mind going, okay, I stood out and we just missed. If I get a little frisky with this and knock it four feet by and miss it, now I feel like I'm Bernhard Langer at Kiwa. Now I've just gone by and I go from the winner, the hero to the goat in two seconds and it's

like, so that goes through your mind and you don't want to think about that, but unfortunately that's what goes into mind. The mind takes over and can do some bad things. Yeah, she's. And what injury-wise, I think that's another aspect that we've been talking about recently of how almost everyone's decline is associated with injury in some way. Either a small nagging injury that has caused you to form a bad habit or a serious injury. I'm wondering what your perspective is on that. Well, I can test to it 100% because it happened to me.

I had shoulder surgery at the end of 2007. And so basically, and I didn't realize how much shoulder surgery, how much rehab there is, it goes with it. And I did it in September, so I really didn't swing a club till mid-November. And obviously the season in an await-8 was starting in January. So for me, I worked so hard on trying to get my long game, was always the strong part of my game.

And so I always worked on my short game. I made sure my wedges and my putting and my chipping around the greens were always good. So I actually did probably 75% of that, 25% hit balls. And I switched it up. And I became, and I really, my ball striking never ever was the same of what it was in the mid 2000s. I mean, my iron play was the best.

And now there's remnants of it. It's just not consistent like it used to be. But so I mean, I attribute that to the surgery for sure. I mean, little aches and pains. I'm lucky I don't really have any back problems like a lot of these guys out here. But I mean, little aches and pains. I'm lucky I don't really have any back problems, like a lot of these guys out here, but I mean, you can, a direct reflection of most guys' careers, you can see an injury for sure.

Yeah, because I think almost every golfer in some way would struggle with, you have at one point played your best golf. And, you know, there's days where I shoot scores that are 16 shots higher than my best round ever, and I just wonder how I could be the same guy. You know what I mean? And I think you can draw confidence from that.

Like, you know what I've done this before? I can do this. And I'm wondering if it could also work the other way of, you know, once you have achieved at such a high level, almost lower levels of success are not satisfying enough and you're still searching for something. Am I on to something with that? Absolutely. And I think the big thing that you see is,

I think it's confidence. And I think what happens is it can take years to grow confidence, to where you get to the point where you can walk in that first TB completely comfortable, still have some anxiety just because you still want to play the game. It's just like if you're played football and you're receiving the kick,

there's just that certain amount of excitement that goes with it. You have that, but you're played football and you're receiving the kick, you know, there's just that certain amount of excitement that goes with it You have that but you're not worried about your game. You're not nervous. You're not letting the nerves affect your play and then It can take two three weeks to just crush all that confidence that is taking years And sometimes you can walk off the golf course and go I don't know if I'm ever gonna hit it like I used to hit it and It's amazing to me that you can go from almost winning a major to three weeks later, don't know if you could ever make a cut again.

That blows my freaking mind. And it happens, and I mean, I think for me, what I talked with Gio about, which helped me a bunch, is that by admitting that, then you can get past that. If you hold that in and don't ever say it, and I think that you're just gonna, you know, you're just gonna, you're never gonna admit it to yourself that this could possibly happen.

And again, admitting it to yourself means that you have it and then what you do is you overcome it and you get past it. And that's what we've all been able to do. At least that's what I've been able to do. So what's your reaction to going and seeing old highlights and revisiting some of your best golf in your career? You know, you look back and it's obviously flattering to know I can do it. My son always says, oh dad, it's in there.

The realization is that my body is 53 years old. It's not 25, 28 anymore. There's not as much flexibility in my golf. Even though I do work out and I do stretch and I do way more than I ever did back then. The reality is my body's not the same. And you know I understand that obviously I want to win out here and I want to be a major roll out here and luckily I have the patience to be able to do that and I think that's the most important thing because I am still trying to get myself back to the comfort level

that I used to have on the PGA tour where I can set up a university and realize and know that the worst I'm going to finish is top 20 every week. I'm working on that and I'm getting there and I'm trying to do it patiently and I know there's I came out and put a lot of expectations on myself early. I'm trying to limit those and just kind of go out and have fun and just enjoy this second life of golf. That's the thing is this is the one of the only sports that you're still playing at this age you know and that's totally it makes it so unique

So on the right you said you were talking a lot about how important it was for you to make the 2004 Ryder Cup team You were the two Ryder Cup teams you were a part of where you were too good this year I was gonna say I'm just curious to get your perspective on feel like you those two teams are the poster teams for We have all of this talent on this team, why isn't it translating? And watching the US team this current year, I'm wondering if you could share anything of, what do you see as the big differences between,

is it youth a little bit, you think? I think golf back then was a way more individual sport. I think that, I mean, literally everybody was an individual. I think now you've seen Jordan's beef and Justin Thomas, they kind of grew up together, they go on trips together, they're friends together. I mean, that Ryder Cup, when in how put Tiger and Phil together, I mean, on paper it seems like how does that team lose? But when the two personalities don't necessarily mesh, it doesn't make for even no fill and tiger were arguably number one and two by far than anybody else in

the world. It's still, if you don't have that little mesh, then it really doesn't work. I think there are a lot better now, I think they're friendly now, and I think they'd be good. I think they'd be great partners now to pay the truth. I think both of them would have a good time. I mean, I don't think there's anybody that's more competitive than either one of those two.

So it just didn't mesh. And it was just uncomfortable for both of them to play with each other. And I think when that's the case, you know, I always said that confidence and being comfortable on the golf course, those are the two most important things. And you know, you put those two guys out with all the expectations on the world. And I just think it, it just kind of was bat. We did it that first day, both matches and they beat us and they just gave them the confidence to go out and do it. And then the second one, a K club, they were really smart. It was wet, they slowed the greens down amazingly, it was soft, it was everything,

and they just were a better team. Yeah, because I just flipping through. Tiger was the youngest person on the 2014 at 28. Right. And now there were only four guys older than 28 on the most recent Ryder Cup. Right. I think there's something, I might dive into that. There's something to the Ryder Cup might be a young man's game. You played with, I also love looking back at that.

Jay Hoss was a 50 year old captain's pick on that team. And he was your partner. How did that partnership come? That was amazing. So, you know, Jay, obviously, is one of my mentors out here. And now we're in the same field every week. So, and we did on a regular tour. But he just, first of all, the whole host family is one of the

nicest families in the world. And, you know, I think I looked up to him and I think I might even said to how I'd love some mentorship and this is I'm a rookie and Jay's been around. He's done his thing and our games meshed very similar games, you know, kind of just not real long, but good iron players, good putters. And, you know, I think we played three matches that year together. I think we were one, one and one in those three matches.

And the first match we won, it was funny. We had practiced all week about I was going to TF1. He was going to do two just because of way it set up for our games, and I was walking over to the tee before the round, and I said, I don't think I can hit this tee ball, and we switched it up. No way. Yeah, we switched it, and he hit the tee ball.

I didn't think that far enough in advance because I was so nervous, and I ended up, I hit it on the green, he put it up, I had to make like a four and a half footer, and I'm like, I'd rather hit the drive than having four and a half footer. Was it driver? It was dri drive round.

Yeah, you should have taken that. I should have for sure. But we ended up winning that match. We played Miguel. I forget who else Miguel played with. But I think we won three and two. And thankfully, Jay hit it like a foot on 16. So where I didn't even have to putt,

they gave me the putt, thank God. I didn't have to make it. So, but that was pretty awesome. We both have a picture of that first one We're kind of like holding each other's hands, you know, yeah, just like yeah, and he signed it to me I signed it to him and I have that hanging it's one of my I got goosebumps thinking about it. It's great Thomas Levei was the other time I said to you remember that you remember that right? Oh three presidents cup that seems like there should be a documentary about that about that president's cup

It's crazy. So 17 17 17 tie, ends in a tie. They go, first of all, I don't know how the president's cup did away with that sudden death playoff. That had to be one of the greatest things in golf. Yeah, but you know what I didn't like about that. I mean, I would rather have seen like a 17 man, you know, or two, six man scrambles or something that it shouldn't be my pressure.

Well, you shouldn't have a team event end on an individual. Yeah. And that's the only thing I team event and on an individual. Yeah. And that's the only thing I didn't like. And it actually worked. And those guys, you talk about being in a zone. I mean, they both, I think they both birdied 18. They both made good parputs on one, like three or four feet. And then they, you know, tiger made to 16 foot slider

on number two. And Ernie made like an eight footer. And both of them walked off the green. Like, I mean, it was like like they didn't know anybody their team I mean they were like focused and like whoa whoa whoa we're gonna you know and the funniest the funniest thing was is you know somebody said okay we'll call it a tie and and Gary's like okay we'll call it a tie and Jack as well we win because we retained a cup and Gary's like no no no no no I don't remember I never heard

that before it was great and then we decided there and then we we would share the cup and it was the right thing to do. It was, it was obviously really dark. Yeah. The Irish and the camera wasn't showing what it was. And I mean, how Tiger made that pot. I was sure will and then Ernie right on top of them. I mean, it was great.

I was rooting for Ernie to make that pot. Yes. Because here he is on in South Africa, being a South African, you know, for the President's Cup. And if he would have missed that pot, I just would have been terrible for him and the ambassador that he is for that country. So, you know, it worked out great. I think that was especially part of history like that too.

Yeah, gosh, I wanna see. I can't get enough of that event. Because what was that trip like? Did you guys spend extra time down there at all in the front end or because that seems like a what was that trip like? Did you guys spend extra time down there at all in the front end? Or because that seems like a tough trip to make quickly? We went there and then the next week we had a World Golf Championship. And I think it was in London.

Pretty sure it was in London. So a lot of us went from there to the World Golf Championship. I think just about all of us went there. And a lot of our wives, they had a plane for them to go home. I know my wife was seven months pregnant with our last child during that one. I was just trying to look at that. What time of year was this, do you remember? It would have been November, or yeah, like October, November.

It would have been whenever the president's kid was a week after the president's cup. Okay. I don't remember that WGC in London, that's interesting. Because I feel like they've gotten way too set up in the US. They used to be one in Ireland, I think at one point. The American experience. Yeah, it was the one in Cork. Yes, what's the greatest shot you think you've ever seen hit?

It could be by anyone, could be an under-termit play, not an under-termit play, or the first really amazing shot that comes to mind is probably an easier question. Wow. You know, the shot he hit, Tiger hit on 18 at Canadian Open was out of the bunker. It was a pretty special shot. You know, there's so many great shots. I mean, I love anything in team competition.

I mean, just even what the Americans did this year, like some of those three woods of Justin Thomas was hitting on like number 16 to get it in there, or whatever he was hitting in there, they were making ego. I know he made ego on his own. I think he made it with Jordan Speed. Jordan made a putt form. And I think they played team, and he made ego, and then Jordan made an alternate shot.

And anything like that, I love seeing shots in the parfies, where there's just trouble everywhere, and they end up afoot. I mean, it's good stuff. And I had this on here to ask you, which is if you had one Mulligan to take it any point in your career, what would it be? I think you may have semi-answered that

with your putt in 2004 at Wesson Straits. Yeah, I would love to have two putts of that one. I think that that was, because it was a pretty easy putt, it was literally just hit it hard enough. And I just left it a little bit short. It was just a straight putt to hit it hard enough. Any other big events that we haven't covered that from your career that stick out the most?

A little insight from the other side of it all. So it was the 1998 Canadian Open, that might have been the same year Tiger hit the shot. But when it was 2000. So my, it was 98 and I just got my card back that year and I was like 125 on a money list. And I hit a two iron to that green from the fairway. And the pin was all in his normal spot.

And I hit just a high cut two iron in there about 15 feet left at a hole and there's that scoreboard right on the thing. And I was tied for 19th. And if I made eagle, I would finish tie. I think I finished tied for ninth. And if I made birdie, I would finish, I think I finished tied for ninth. And if I made birdie, but that tied for ninth moved me to, you know, it was only like three or four tournaments, I've moved me to like 90th on the money list

and basically got my card. So that two iron for me is something that I remember all the time because that literally kind of catapulted my career because that's the first year that on tour I put it with the claw and it just kind of went on from there. That's fun. Everyone's got a shot of some kind or something. I did it at one point that just like, yeah, this would have gone the other way. My whole life in career career. I'm in the water. I make bogey. I might not keep my card that year and who knows what happened. She's, that's wild. So yeah. All right, we'll let you go. Best of luck this week.

Thanks for spending some time with us. Tell them to get as this was a blast. We'll have to do it again sometime. Sounds good, anytime. Cheers. Thanks. Be the right club today. Yes. That is better than most. How about him? That is better than most.

Better than most. Better than most.